Shows up to class at Thraben University. Some madman turns up with 20 swamps and a pile of random cards to prove a point. Turns out its the university lecturer.
@Kryptnyt yup, another clean 1 to 1 upgrade. At that point you're on your way to the Vein Ripper list, except a different 3 drop, and Lashwrithe / Dauthi over Sorin / Vein Ripper
I accidentally paused the video at the start before phil started talking, for like 2 whole minutes and I thought he was doing a bit where he just left the card on the screen without saying anything.
There is a difference tho. There's one thing you simply can't do against a T1 Grief: Counter it. You can go 2-1 against it, sure, but if they reanimate it, they come out card neutral. Which is the issue with Grief. It might end in a non game, just because they managed to get 2 cards out of hand, adding the problem of variance with landscrew/flood, them drawing into 2/4 Wastelands - makes for a terrible experience. Not saying it should be banned in Legacy, Modern on the other hand... But I am adamant about, that the evoke elemental and free spells in general, were a really bad idea.
@@neros_soren You can't really say "free spells are bad" and "at least you can counter show and tell/storm/whatnot" when the reason that is true is because forces exist.
@@GR20000 honestly, all free spells were probably mistakes, but now, a lot of cards can exist because it is possible to interact on turn 0. However, I do see Grief as a problem card. I think the others are fine in legacy, but Grief allows you to take your opponents' free interaction, and then combo off on turn 1, or just rip your opponents' hands for all of its gas.
@@baguetten8004 By the metrics of this leage, what, maybe 25% of the time? And while this is a very strong interaction, and does subvert other free spells, it does so at the cost of not just ending the game like other turn one nonsense, you CAN come back from it, it's just disadvantaged. It's both legitimately unlikely and, while resiliant to interaction, it's not so destructive as to be unbeatable.
@@GR20000 Ignoring that the first part was specifically about the evoke elemental? Also...Most combo decks pop off on turn 2, with Doomsday being an exception, but that deck has a pretty high variance. No idea why you honed in on that part anyways, when it was about having Grief and everything else on the same comparable level, ignoring the big difference. And your reply to qbaguetten8004 just proves that you didn't even bother reading my message. I literally stated the big problem of Grief/Reanimate there. The issue isn't that it "only happens in 25% of the matches", which is a lie, because using metrics from one league proves nothing, and people actually mulligan for the combo against certain decks, but it also ignores, that it's an ADDED problem of variance decks in MTG have to deal with anyways. ANd it not ending the game, in most cases is even worse, because scooping makes no sense, but actual win rate of those games don't scratch 50%. And most Legacy/Modern players will agree with this: I rather deterministically lose on turn one, than losing 10 turns later, not drawing my 8 outs. Also ignores, that those decks tend to run Wastelands, which also attack the variance point of manascrew/flood. There's generally nothing fun about losing 2 cards out of your hand, and having 1-2 lands removed, and then slowly die to a 3/3, and not being "allowed" to actually use draw spells to get out of the situation, because Bowmasters is a thing. tl;dr Ignoring my actual points AND only judging Grief in a vacuum makes your arguments pretty void.
I love Vampire Nighthawk!! I have great memories of using that card in the early/middle game of some MTG: Shandalar runs (the 2015 patch). That particular combination of keywords allows it to perform pretty dang well. That being said, performance in Shandalar is not a great indicator of Legacy viability. What a great idea for a video!
In addition to what you mentioned at the end about Grief scam needing four cards to line up right in the opening hand: even if you do it, it's just a very powerful play. It does not win you the game on the spot. A three power menace creature is a seven turn clock.
i like this point. the grief reanimator strategy is hedging against all the broken turn one bullshit combos of legacy, and it actually helps your opponents gameplan if they are on dredge or a graveyard strategy.
What if the real conclusion is that Vampire Nighthawk is in a good spot? It seems good versus Murktide and Goblins and lots of the other 'big things get to 20' decks.
While not broken, Grief, being a recursive discard spell creates repetitive play patterns. It turns magic from a 7-card-hand game into a 5-card-hand game and greatly narrows the potential outcomes by doing so.
It doesn’t “greatly narrow” outcomes. Having 4 cards in your hand in order to punch a hole into 2 non land cards of your opponent is strong, but isn’t losing you the game. Hell, Evoking Grief is still trading 3 cards for 2. Anyone crying about Grief is any casual commander player that cries about being interacted with.
@@data_abort Well yeah, but the problem is that Legacy's power level is so high that whatever the most-played deck does, people will say it's not fun. It also wouldn't be fun if most enemies would combo-kill you on turn 3. Back when Delver was on top, people also called that unfun. And there's no reason to play a "fair, durdly" control deck in Legacy when you can be a control deck that casts Beans on turn 2.
Its strange that nobody discusses banning Reanimate, rather that Grief. I realize that it has been a format staple for decades now but if there is one card that holds this deck together, Reanimate is it. Not troll and not Grief.
Well, if you take away Reanimate, then the Reanimator archetype probably stops being competitively viable. Which would be a bit of a shame, that's one less deck you can play.
My prediction before watching is that the one ring carried the deck the last time and the lifelinking vampires were surprisingly synergistic with the ring, and the lack of card advantage in this build will hold it back. Lets see how it pans out, maybe grief just gets there.
Given how often you found yourself low on cards and hoping to topdeck threats that could pick up a lash and go to town, it seems to me that the non-scam part of the deck should try to be more like Exsanguinator Cavalry, i.e. stuff that filters dead draws into threats. Maybe try to lean heavier into blood tokens if you'd like to stay on the janky/casual vampire theme?
Battle of Bywater DnT looks really fun Im guessing they don't run flickwisp in order to justify it? Or they board out flickerwisp for it and dont run any other 3+ power creatures except for Yorion
I went to a new shop one time because I saw online they ran legacy. I brought high tide with me. It turned out to be the situation you described in the intro where everyone but me was just playing cards_they_own.dec. I felt kinda bad
Yeah but that's legitimately the best way to play magic, the game is more interesting and fun when everyone isn't trying to turn zero win the game in step outside to smoke for 50 minutes
Will never understand why it’s always the non-blue card on the chopping block and blamed for ruining the format. The blue shell of cantrips, free counters and wasteland is very obviously the problem. The main boogeyman of the format is scaminator, which just plugs scam into this obnoxious, seemingly untouchable shell. Ban daze and the format improves immediately. Supply blue mages with tissues for their tears and make them have to actually play the game using some mana. Also, from a design perspective, WOTC needs to make sure pushed mono colored cards (like bowmaster) have double pips in that color, so they cannot just slot into this blue shell in the future.
@MackNJacishopper 99% of arguments about banning cards are either change = bad or general consequences of capitalism(ie:being too expensive). I doubt anyone would bet an eye if bowmaster cost 5 dollars or printed in innistrad block
Because legacy players are legacy players because 1- They have enjoyed playing the format as it is at some point. Probably for a long time 2- They have invested a lot into making decks Thus, they really hate the things that break their decks. However, as a new legacy player that plays 100% proxy, I think Grief is extremely fair and is doing god's job at giving black a tool against hyper fast combo decks.
But the format is defined by that shell. In an alternative world where dual lands were the OP thing, you still wouldn't ban dual lands from the format, cause dual lands ARE the format. Similarly, that blue shell IS the format.
While I completely agree with the point you make, I don’t necessarily agree with the way you’ve gone about proving it. Take expressive iteration for example. It is by no means oppressive, yet it was banned to keep the URx tempo decks in balance with the other decks in the format. Putting expressive iteration in a deck below legacy standards and then watching it underperform doesn’t mean it needn’t have been banned, right? Regardless, thanks for the video! It was a good one as always
I agree. You could do this with the power 9 (minus timewalk maybe) and watch him underperform because his deck is not able to properly make use of them, does that mean they are not some of the best cards of all time?
I think that the premise of this video is a bit flawed: if you could design a card that easily turned “bad” decks into competitive decks then maybe that card would be pervasive but I am inclined to think it would be broadly positive for the game in terms of general diversity of decks. For me the issue is that it’s much easier for cards to just make the best decks better, and in examples like Grief then the way it does so is also really unpleasant to play against because it often turns a sub-par opening hand into nothing at all and then you just don’t get to play the game.
It isn't that Grief/Bowmasters are too good. It is the bad design. The best card against Bowmasters is Bowmasters. Grief Reanimate Grief slaughters hands that are looking to pitch cast (e.g. Grief). The best cards against them are themselves. Toss in the fact that Grief beats up on combo and Bowmasters beats up on control... and you end up with an artificially inflated playrate; the best aggro deck to beat Grief Bowmasters is Grief Bowmasters.
And yet a plethora of decks (w/o bowmaster/grief) are still played and put up good results. God forbid a non-blue color getting good cards, right? Bowmasters everywhere and brainstorm is still the most played card. Not a peep about brainstorm. Why?
@BernardoHenriques4 I think you missed my point maybe? Bowmasters and Grief countering themselves means their playrate exceeds their winrate It's artificially inflated. Of course other decks put up good results still, that's my point *edit for typo
Yeah, agreed that a huge issue is that the best card against Bowmaster is Bowmaster. Whereas if some graveyard deck got out of hand, people would just play a deck with 4 maindeck Leyline of the Void, 4 Helm of Obedience and 4 Dauthi Voidwalker, they'd farm that graveyard deck all day, and the metagame would stabilize.
Yesterday i asked the question as to whether or not gatekicker would be playable in a pseudo vampire themed "sorin tell" legacy deck. Today there's an actual vampire themed legacy deck and there's no gatekicker in it. I'm sure the people that trolled my comment yesterday feel thoroughly justified today 😑
I think bowmasters should be banned. Not because it punishes card draw, but the initial ping killing any 1 health creature is so limiting to the format. So many decks are just unplayable right now because of bowmaster’s prevalence
Banning grief is ridiculous, so much other stuff is so oppressive. On the play yeah its busted. But other than that its not, when fow with no mana on the draw still beats it.
People calling for the Grief ban is fine for Modern...Lagacy...I mean, it's really degenerate, but I don't think it's really oppressive. So, yeah I don't agree (pre video watched) but I still feel like any format would be better off without a Grief-Reanimate play pattern in it. We all know how terrible "non-games" are. Weather be it because of land flood/screw or because you drew nothing substantial after mulligan. Grief just feeds into this problem.
Losing to fow on the play is oppressive. Now they have access to fon and daze and fow. Grief does not play though that and you three for one yourself or even four for two yourself.
@@jessoftherocks And you have to play into daze? And like I said, Forcing Grief is a terrible play, that's why literally no one will ever do so. If they don't have a reanimate, you are losing only 1 card for their two instead of 2-2ing yourself. And if they have reanimate, you are losing 2 anyways, and one of them is 100% your Force.
Okay well a lot of shit in the format is unfun. Daze is unfun because if you're on the draw you pretty much have to skip a whole turn its effectively a Time Walk for you. Ponder and brainstorm are unfun as they are the biggest enabler of bullshit in the format Wasteland is unfun Isaac gate keeps mana intensive strategies from being in the format that aren't just ancient tomb +lock piece gaming so you're not allowed to play stuff like cloud post or Tron without absolutely being blown out by a land drop
There are people who, to this day, will argue that banning Splinter Twin was a mistake. Also, this is legacy, the point is that you can play anything that isn't obviously completely unreasonable (Ancestral Recall and stuff). Furthermore, Legacy is so powerful that the most-played deck will never be some fair, durdly deck that either just plays completely reasonable creatures, or a control deck that plays a bunch of answers and then tries to get ahead by paying three mana to draw two cards. If you ban Grief and Beans dominates, everyone says that it's unfun that the game is decided by whether or not they have Beans, and that you almost can't out-card-advantage Beans, and we must ban Beans. If you ban Grief and combo dominates, everyone says that they hate being combo killed, and you must ban (combo piece.) If you ban Grief and goblins becomes the top deck, everyone says that it's unfun that Goblin Lackey coinflips the game, and we must ban Lackey. etc etc
I'm so sick of this ban everything new crap. It's effing Legacy! We have been playing with bonkers cards since forever! Chill out, there is an answer for everything!
Shows up to class at Thraben University.
Some madman turns up with 20 swamps and a pile of random cards to prove a point.
Turns out its the university lecturer.
Phil I am your round 1 opponent. You are correct it's George Michael. He was one of my favorite musicians and it's an inside joke for my MTGO name.
This is hilarious!
Honestly I think adding Bowmasters would probably make the deck competitive. I pretty much consider it part of the Grief package at this point.
Could swap V.N. with Nighthawk Scavenger I suppose
@Kryptnyt yup, another clean 1 to 1 upgrade. At that point you're on your way to the Vein Ripper list, except a different 3 drop, and Lashwrithe / Dauthi over Sorin / Vein Ripper
Kind of funny how force of will designed decades ago is way better desogned than the pitch cards they printed on the modern age.
Just imagine how much better these matches would be if instead of Gifted Aetherborn you had Bowmasters
I accidentally paused the video at the start before phil started talking, for like 2 whole minutes and I thought he was doing a bit where he just left the card on the screen without saying anything.
Lol, that'd be a funny move. 10 minutes of silence, then intro
Getting turn 1 grief:🤬🤬🤬
Getting turn 1 show and tell/storm/doomsday/chalice/reanimator/dredge:👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻
There is a difference tho.
There's one thing you simply can't do against a T1 Grief: Counter it. You can go 2-1 against it, sure, but if they reanimate it, they come out card neutral. Which is the issue with Grief. It might end in a non game, just because they managed to get 2 cards out of hand, adding the problem of variance with landscrew/flood, them drawing into 2/4 Wastelands - makes for a terrible experience.
Not saying it should be banned in Legacy, Modern on the other hand...
But I am adamant about, that the evoke elemental and free spells in general, were a really bad idea.
@@neros_soren You can't really say "free spells are bad" and "at least you can counter show and tell/storm/whatnot" when the reason that is true is because forces exist.
@@GR20000 honestly, all free spells were probably mistakes, but now, a lot of cards can exist because it is possible to interact on turn 0. However, I do see Grief as a problem card. I think the others are fine in legacy, but Grief allows you to take your opponents' free interaction, and then combo off on turn 1, or just rip your opponents' hands for all of its gas.
@@baguetten8004 By the metrics of this leage, what, maybe 25% of the time? And while this is a very strong interaction, and does subvert other free spells, it does so at the cost of not just ending the game like other turn one nonsense, you CAN come back from it, it's just disadvantaged. It's both legitimately unlikely and, while resiliant to interaction, it's not so destructive as to be unbeatable.
@@GR20000 Ignoring that the first part was specifically about the evoke elemental?
Also...Most combo decks pop off on turn 2, with Doomsday being an exception, but that deck has a pretty high variance.
No idea why you honed in on that part anyways, when it was about having Grief and everything else on the same comparable level, ignoring the big difference.
And your reply to qbaguetten8004 just proves that you didn't even bother reading my message.
I literally stated the big problem of Grief/Reanimate there.
The issue isn't that it "only happens in 25% of the matches", which is a lie, because using metrics from one league proves nothing, and people actually mulligan for the combo against certain decks, but it also ignores, that it's an ADDED problem of variance decks in MTG have to deal with anyways. ANd it not ending the game, in most cases is even worse, because scooping makes no sense, but actual win rate of those games don't scratch 50%.
And most Legacy/Modern players will agree with this: I rather deterministically lose on turn one, than losing 10 turns later, not drawing my 8 outs.
Also ignores, that those decks tend to run Wastelands, which also attack the variance point of manascrew/flood. There's generally nothing fun about losing 2 cards out of your hand, and having 1-2 lands removed, and then slowly die to a 3/3, and not being "allowed" to actually use draw spells to get out of the situation, because Bowmasters is a thing.
tl;dr Ignoring my actual points AND only judging Grief in a vacuum makes your arguments pretty void.
love to see nighthawk get some love, (even if it is the most backhanded thing I've ever seen)
These card and deck choices are the reason why this is my favorite mtg gameplay channel
I honestly think Orcish Bowmasters should be banned before Grief. It would be nice to play 1/1s and 2/2s again.
You can play 1/1s.
Bowmasters is a 1/1.
It was very nice of you to not bowmasters the last D&T player on the ladder. They're a protected species after all.
So sad d and t is dead.
@@jessoftherocks fuck bowcancer
I love Vampire Nighthawk!! I have great memories of using that card in the early/middle game of some MTG: Shandalar runs (the 2015 patch). That particular combination of keywords allows it to perform pretty dang well. That being said, performance in Shandalar is not a great indicator of Legacy viability.
What a great idea for a video!
I used to run mono black w/ lashwrithe and nighthawk in modern back in the day so the thumbnail gave me a good feeling
In addition to what you mentioned at the end about Grief scam needing four cards to line up right in the opening hand: even if you do it, it's just a very powerful play. It does not win you the game on the spot. A three power menace creature is a seven turn clock.
i like this point. the grief reanimator strategy is hedging against all the broken turn one bullshit combos of legacy, and it actually helps your opponents gameplan if they are on dredge or a graveyard strategy.
Grief isn't fun, but I think it's fair. Bowmasters is just so ubiquitous. Both together is just... Miserable.
I feel as though reanimating grief is the problem. Too bad you didn’t exile the grief when evoked.
Up the Beanstalk is way more of a problem card than any black card in Legacy.
This is absolutely true.
What if the real conclusion is that Vampire Nighthawk is in a good spot? It seems good versus Murktide and Goblins and lots of the other 'big things get to 20' decks.
Where's the Gatekeeper of Malakir? Isn't he the name sake card in The gate?
While not broken, Grief, being a recursive discard spell creates repetitive play patterns. It turns magic from a 7-card-hand game into a 5-card-hand game and greatly narrows the potential outcomes by doing so.
I'm just going to focus on the first part of what you said, "While not broken"
Nothing more needs to be said tbh. It's not broken, let it rock.
It doesn’t “greatly narrow” outcomes. Having 4 cards in your hand in order to punch a hole into 2 non land cards of your opponent is strong, but isn’t losing you the game. Hell, Evoking Grief is still trading 3 cards for 2. Anyone crying about Grief is any casual commander player that cries about being interacted with.
@@data_abort Well yeah, but the problem is that Legacy's power level is so high that whatever the most-played deck does, people will say it's not fun. It also wouldn't be fun if most enemies would combo-kill you on turn 3. Back when Delver was on top, people also called that unfun. And there's no reason to play a "fair, durdly" control deck in Legacy when you can be a control deck that casts Beans on turn 2.
Its strange that nobody discusses banning Reanimate, rather that Grief. I realize that it has been a format staple for decades now but if there is one card that holds this deck together, Reanimate is it. Not troll and not Grief.
Even stranger no one mentions banning the actual problem, daze.
Well, if you take away Reanimate, then the Reanimator archetype probably stops being competitively viable. Which would be a bit of a shame, that's one less deck you can play.
Legacy players have a sort of Stockholm syndrome where they just get used to cards that are op but the new ones are the problem
Oh. Cool premise. A good way to test a theory
My prediction before watching is that the one ring carried the deck the last time and the lifelinking vampires were surprisingly synergistic with the ring, and the lack of card advantage in this build will hold it back. Lets see how it pans out, maybe grief just gets there.
Given how often you found yourself low on cards and hoping to topdeck threats that could pick up a lash and go to town, it seems to me that the non-scam part of the deck should try to be more like Exsanguinator Cavalry, i.e. stuff that filters dead draws into threats. Maybe try to lean heavier into blood tokens if you'd like to stay on the janky/casual vampire theme?
Battle of Bywater DnT looks really fun
Im guessing they don't run flickwisp in order to justify it? Or they board out flickerwisp for it and dont run any other 3+ power creatures except for Yorion
The One Ring seems like it could be good sideboard for the grinder matchups
Why not Nighthawk Scavenger?
I went to a new shop one time because I saw online they ran legacy. I brought high tide with me. It turned out to be the situation you described in the intro where everyone but me was just playing cards_they_own.dec. I felt kinda bad
Yeah but that's legitimately the best way to play magic, the game is more interesting and fun when everyone isn't trying to turn zero win the game in step outside to smoke for 50 minutes
Round 2 oppo was a top deck hero wow
should have had obliterator to the deck for the meme
Will never understand why it’s always the non-blue card on the chopping block and blamed for ruining the format. The blue shell of cantrips, free counters and wasteland is very obviously the problem. The main boogeyman of the format is scaminator, which just plugs scam into this obnoxious, seemingly untouchable shell. Ban daze and the format improves immediately. Supply blue mages with tissues for their tears and make them have to actually play the game using some mana. Also, from a design perspective, WOTC needs to make sure pushed mono colored cards (like bowmaster) have double pips in that color, so they cannot just slot into this blue shell in the future.
Change = bad and general consequences of capitalism
@@tomyang1117
MTG is itself a consequence of capitalism....
@MackNJacishopper 99% of arguments about banning cards are either change = bad or general consequences of capitalism(ie:being too expensive). I doubt anyone would bet an eye if bowmaster cost 5 dollars or printed in innistrad block
Because legacy players are legacy players because
1- They have enjoyed playing the format as it is at some point. Probably for a long time
2- They have invested a lot into making decks
Thus, they really hate the things that break their decks.
However, as a new legacy player that plays 100% proxy, I think Grief is extremely fair and is doing god's job at giving black a tool against hyper fast combo decks.
But the format is defined by that shell. In an alternative world where dual lands were the OP thing, you still wouldn't ban dual lands from the format, cause dual lands ARE the format. Similarly, that blue shell IS the format.
I’m gonna try this but with my curses deck lol
black finally has some viability:
twitter armchair legacy: reeee ban swamps
You know what 3 dollar cards this deck really needs. Like really really needs. Two castle lochtwains 😄 Anybody, don´t you dare say no.
holy shit I am here for this science
While I completely agree with the point you make, I don’t necessarily agree with the way you’ve gone about proving it. Take expressive iteration for example. It is by no means oppressive, yet it was banned to keep the URx tempo decks in balance with the other decks in the format. Putting expressive iteration in a deck below legacy standards and then watching it underperform doesn’t mean it needn’t have been banned, right? Regardless, thanks for the video! It was a good one as always
I agree. You could do this with the power 9 (minus timewalk maybe) and watch him underperform because his deck is not able to properly make use of them, does that mean they are not some of the best cards of all time?
Vampire nighthawk owns. How dare you besmirch its name!
I think that the premise of this video is a bit flawed: if you could design a card that easily turned “bad” decks into competitive decks then maybe that card would be pervasive but I am inclined to think it would be broadly positive for the game in terms of general diversity of decks. For me the issue is that it’s much easier for cards to just make the best decks better, and in examples like Grief then the way it does so is also really unpleasant to play against because it often turns a sub-par opening hand into nothing at all and then you just don’t get to play the game.
As someone who’s 3 chains of Mephistopheles dropped $400 dollars in value yes ban bowmasters!
It isn't that Grief/Bowmasters are too good. It is the bad design. The best card against Bowmasters is Bowmasters. Grief Reanimate Grief slaughters hands that are looking to pitch cast (e.g. Grief). The best cards against them are themselves.
Toss in the fact that Grief beats up on combo and Bowmasters beats up on control... and you end up with an artificially inflated playrate; the best aggro deck to beat Grief Bowmasters is Grief Bowmasters.
And yet a plethora of decks (w/o bowmaster/grief) are still played and put up good results. God forbid a non-blue color getting good cards, right? Bowmasters everywhere and brainstorm is still the most played card. Not a peep about brainstorm. Why?
@BernardoHenriques4 I think you missed my point maybe? Bowmasters and Grief countering themselves means their playrate exceeds their winrate
It's artificially inflated. Of course other decks put up good results still, that's my point
*edit for typo
Yeah, agreed that a huge issue is that the best card against Bowmaster is Bowmaster.
Whereas if some graveyard deck got out of hand, people would just play a deck with 4 maindeck Leyline of the Void, 4 Helm of Obedience and 4 Dauthi Voidwalker, they'd farm that graveyard deck all day, and the metagame would stabilize.
Experiment respect.
I'm down for this
Yesterday i asked the question as to whether or not gatekicker would be playable in a pseudo vampire themed "sorin tell" legacy deck. Today there's an actual vampire themed legacy deck and there's no gatekicker in it. I'm sure the people that trolled my comment yesterday feel thoroughly justified today 😑
I think bowmasters should be banned. Not because it punishes card draw, but the initial ping killing any 1 health creature is so limiting to the format. So many decks are just unplayable right now because of bowmaster’s prevalence
This "lifelink vampires" deck cannot be saved by including any banned card. The experiment is flawed
Banning grief is ridiculous, so much other stuff is so oppressive. On the play yeah its busted. But other than that its not, when fow with no mana on the draw still beats it.
People calling for the Grief ban is fine for Modern...Lagacy...I mean, it's really degenerate, but I don't think it's really oppressive. So, yeah I don't agree (pre video watched) but I still feel like any format would be better off without a Grief-Reanimate play pattern in it. We all know how terrible "non-games" are. Weather be it because of land flood/screw or because you drew nothing substantial after mulligan. Grief just feeds into this problem.
Losing to fow on the play is oppressive. Now they have access to fon and daze and fow. Grief does not play though that and you three for one yourself or even four for two yourself.
@@jessoftherocks And you have to play into daze? And like I said, Forcing Grief is a terrible play, that's why literally no one will ever do so. If they don't have a reanimate, you are losing only 1 card for their two instead of 2-2ing yourself. And if they have reanimate, you are losing 2 anyways, and one of them is 100% your Force.
people like at 14:26 who play all matching basics of that cycle give me the ick. i dont care if the art is pretty.
Cringe
I mean, if you ran oko with a bunch of bad cards, I'm sure the deck would look bad too lol.
Come on you own sone dark rituals
I don't think anyone cares how powerful it is.
It's unfun to play against.
So, like Twin, it needs to go.
Okay well a lot of shit in the format is unfun.
Daze is unfun because if you're on the draw you pretty much have to skip a whole turn its effectively a Time Walk for you.
Ponder and brainstorm are unfun as they are the biggest enabler of bullshit in the format
Wasteland is unfun Isaac gate keeps mana intensive strategies from being in the format that aren't just ancient tomb +lock piece gaming so you're not allowed to play stuff like cloud post or Tron without absolutely being blown out by a land drop
There are people who, to this day, will argue that banning Splinter Twin was a mistake.
Also, this is legacy, the point is that you can play anything that isn't obviously completely unreasonable (Ancestral Recall and stuff).
Furthermore, Legacy is so powerful that the most-played deck will never be some fair, durdly deck that either just plays completely reasonable creatures, or a control deck that plays a bunch of answers and then tries to get ahead by paying three mana to draw two cards.
If you ban Grief and Beans dominates, everyone says that it's unfun that the game is decided by whether or not they have Beans, and that you almost can't out-card-advantage Beans, and we must ban Beans.
If you ban Grief and combo dominates, everyone says that they hate being combo killed, and you must ban (combo piece.)
If you ban Grief and goblins becomes the top deck, everyone says that it's unfun that Goblin Lackey coinflips the game, and we must ban Lackey.
etc etc
Build a bad enough deck and Ancestral Recall isn't even very good.
I'm so sick of this ban everything new crap. It's effing Legacy!
We have been playing with bonkers cards since forever!
Chill out, there is an answer for everything!