S4 E5. We fix the power brakes with an electric vacuum pump and a bit of engineering.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ค. 2024
- Season 4 Episode 5. Jimbo has a go at restoring the power brakes on the diesel powered Honda Insight. Will a few random parts from the internet get the job done? tune in and find out.
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Jimbo
Robot Cantina
207 S. Sedgwick Ave
P.O. Box 28
Haven KS, 67543 - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
I am now calling this a K-swap build to friends to throw them off haha.
I mean your not wrong
Lmfao you gonna have some butthurt Honda friends lol but all for fun right 😅
Fantastic lol!
If you really want to mess with them, call it a diesel K-swap.
Maybe a vacuum chamber between the booster and check valve? Provide a reservoir of vacuum for instant and sustained braking (emergency), and allow the pump to run a little longer and reduce chatter naturally by exposing it to more volume. Great video as always!
agreed, you could make a large one out of a section of pvc pipe and just zip tie it underneath the car.
I second or third this concept.
Agreed, Old cars with vacuum wipers often had vacuum pumps run off the fuel pump and just used a mason jar with fittings in the lid.
@@ronniedale6040 GM used vacuum reservoir balls on things like 1990s S-10s and Camaros. Last I checked, they were cheap on the "jungle site".
I ended up adding one to my 68 Dodge Super Bee after installing a large solid lifter cam to keep the GM booster happy!
The sound of the vacuum pump was atrocious. I ended up swapping a manual disk brake master cylinder.
Oh.well live and learn😂
Hey Jimbo RC! Honda Technician here. This is how Honda developed their IMA hybrid style electronic boosters over time. Eventually we got rid of the vacuum booster all together and now use electronic boosters. I’ll need to get more schematics and diagrams if you’d like to continue to reverse engineer more Honda stuff!
Great project, it scratches my memory of hitching a weed whacker engine to a bicycle.
I just love your potshots at the Keyboard Warriors and Armchair Engineers! 😂
I make stuff like this and I've built one that works
You can use a toothed V belt to make it last longer. It will support smaller radius routing without problem.
hey "Robot Cantina", I have been enjoying watching your videos and listening to your calming and down-to-earth voice for a long time. I wonder, as a resident of the European Union, how do you manage to be legally admitted to road traffic with all these modifications? our bureaucracy would ground such cars permanently. Thank you for your videos and best regards!!
The American regulations are more like guidelines. As long as it looks correct when inspected, everything is fine, and some states never inspect anything!
(like mine 😅 )
Just make sure it looks kosher (proper lights, tires, not shooting flame) so cops won't look too close, and there won't be problems. (generally)
Iowa is pretty accurate most states are pretty laid back about engine swaps most inspections if there even is one is just making sure breaks and suspension are good
He talks about his minor woes getting the Renault registered early in that series.
As a life-long resident of either CA or Washington state: (Except for emissions [which WA quit doing a few years ago]) Inspections? We don't need no stinking inspections! 😊😊😊😊
Did you miss the fact that he lives in America? There is no other answer needed.
This channel really has it all:
- Consistency
- Production value
- Attention to detail
- Neat organisation (the season numbers and such)
- Humor
- Interesting content
- A handsome host
You should look into ATV thermostats. they're very small too.
Good explanation of the vacuum brake system. I remember when I was fixing the turbo pipe on my 09 Mini Cooper, I forgot to reconnect the vacuum pipe line on reassembly, went for a drive, stopped a few times fine, then put my foot down to confirm my turbo pipe was fixed to then be scared shitless by having no power assisted brakes as I'd used all the vacuum in the brake booster 😂
The panic switch is relatively easily done with a brake pressure switch if you're so inclined, and although it likely won't work due to your space limitations, a vacuum reservoir, along with remote mounting the switch (further away and reading from the reservoir) would likely reduce or eliminate the chatter (further from the source= slower rate of pressure change).
I came to the comments to mention a reservoir. it would add a buffer to the system.
I was hoping someone would mention a vacuum reservoir as a solution. Probably wouldn't need to be very big since there is only 1 device that intermittently needs vacuum. I'm a little surprised he didn't include one, its probably long gone but I'm sure that Insight had one tucked into the firewall/fender somewhere.
Only problem with that is the pump will be on constantly if you keep your foot on the brakes, such as at a red light.
@@roboman2444 It would be anyway, with the delay and a reservoir it could significantly decrease the amount of time it needs to run to keep the pressure stable. it would take it longer to charge the system, but after that, it should be more stable
@@donakahorse Yeah a larger reservoir is a good idea to help smooth things out.
How about a simple vacuum accumulator? Plenty of used junk yard units from power stroke diesels and even gasoline fords that used vacuum controls for the cabin air vents on the gasoline engines.
twas thinking same thing.
80s Ford IDI diesels used a belt drive vacuum pump.
I chimed in too late. Had to go back and delete the comment I just left. I agree that your suggestion is a partial solution to the limit switch chatter.....
I was going to make a similar comment. A vacuum reservoir should smooth out the vacuum signal. It should also provide more vacuum reserve.
It doesn't need to be anything fancy, either. For example, the vacuum reservoir on my TDI Jetta is just a plastic ball, about 5-6 inches diameter.
One of the easiest to find would probably the “vacuum bombs” from VW TDI engines. They’re everywhere in junkyards.
Great video. For improved vacuum power boost braking, install a vacuum reserve tank (anywhere in/on the car). Cheap hac, use an old fire extinguisher bottle and weld a fitting on.
My TDI had a vacuum reservoir. Might be a good idea to have one.
Was about to post the same. A reservoir might also help with the chatter from the vacume switches as the pressure will change slower.
Vacuum canister is a great junkyard upgrade for this project
As a Certified Internet Commenter 😂 I think the "chattering" issue with vacuum pump would easily be resolved *IF* you could find a *switch* that turned on/off at different vacuum rates. *Change my Mind*
the easiest solution is to source a used alternator from a diesel engine that has a vacuum pump built in. If you want an electrical solution, i think the correct method is to use two switches rated for different vacuums. i understand some compressors use that method with two motors to lower the inrush current in environments where it's not desireable to upgrade the mains current rating.
@@martin-vv9lf well my first thought was definitely a belt driven vacuum pump, but then there would be the "it robs too much horsepower" comments. But yes, I agree that two switches at different rates is key, if staying with electric.
like, a mechanical pid?
@@felderup yes a pid, but with 100% duty cycle. other commenters have said that merely adding a vacuum tank would fix the issue, so that would be the first thing to try. I guess you could try using a compressor valve switch, or one from a water well pump, but mounted upside down, with the box inside the vacuum tank so that it sees the atmosphere as the pressurised side.
@FarmAlarm Hi FA. You just defined hysteresis. He mentioned that a few times in the video. The present switch has none. If he could find one with more (any) hysteresis that would solve the problem. He can’t find one, so he’s doing the delay relay instead.
I liked the idea posted in the comments about hooking up the pump to t he brake lights, definitely a hack but inventive. However you did it the non hack way which is "Best Practice". I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for the stupid charger. Keep up the good videos Jimbo.
We finally caught a sneak peak of Jimbo due to the new camera mounting!
Not the first time it's happened.
Haha yes I saw that. I would now have a slim chance of recognising him on the street, except that I live an ocean away.
I've seen every episode of RC and every one still has that "brand new" magic. If I had a magic pencil this is what it would be drawing. So very grateful to you, your scholarship, your curiosity, and your need to share. Thanks.
No ones making content like this. Your the man jimbo
My idea of a panic switch is to wire the pump to the brakelights so it always runs when you brake, still with the same system you made and of course the timer relay, just an extra precaution if something fails in the system.
Lotta' love from the other side of the pond🫡
That is a clever idea!
Maybe not a great idea, depending on where you live. I've stopped in traffic more than a few minutes because of whatever reason people didn't want to drive. Probably easier to wire up, but no control over pressure. I'm sure it would work in more small towns. It also doesn't help if a leak develops as the system wouldn't even try to maintain pressure until you are already on the brakes.
Brief rear-3/4 views and several minutes of reflected forehead! It's nice to see you warming up to the camera. Also, a suggestion on that panic switch: nobody experiencing difficult braking will be thinking "oh right, the panic switch." Solution: wire the bypass to the brake light switch. That will force the pump on whenever the brakes are being depressed, while the pressure switch ensures the reservoir is never left depleted. Might need a couple diode packs in there to avoid a backfeed.
Thanks Jimbo for all the clear explanations of the projects worked on. Keep up the snipes at all the haters and smarties.
Loved today’s video Jimbo, keep it going, of course I’m really looking forward to the Stupid Charger 🙂
I would probaly add a inline vacume canister to store vacume that way the pump dont need to come on as much. also i found this on amazon (Timer Relay, Adjustable Signal Trigger Turn Off Delay Timer Switch Relay Module 12V) 7 bucks
Your channel shows you build a LOT of stuff like this, so he should take your advice.
All of this is what I came to say.
A vacuum canister and a timer relay is the way to go. Ensure the pump runs for at least 5 seconds at a time and runs less often. Indeed, if you place the switch in the right place, the canister alone will fix the issue by making it take longer to reach or deplete through the target vacuum range.
..came here to say just that.. :)
We did actually buy something similar, however it didn't arrive in time to be in the video. As for the storage canister, we don't need one, the brake booster is a storage canister and holds enough vacuum for three applications of the brakes. Keep in mind, as I mentioned the pump is quick, but not instantaneous. We don't want a huge storage tank to pump down, the booster holds just enough vacuum for the pump to evacuate quickly.
@@robotcantina8957 my thought is that it be a buffer so the pump dont need to run as much
You need to install vacuum. canister. between the booster and the vacuum switch.
well if you like relays and who doesn't like relays you can do the time off with a time on relay too by adding you guessed it MORE RELAYS! OLYMPICS!
Your videos make my (usually) terrible sunday so much better... Thank you very much for the entertainment and knowledge and greetings from Sardinia(Italy)
This car wants to road trip frequently👌💫🙋
I've actually wanted to mention this for a few videos now, Jimbo. Back in the 80's, VW built a prototype based on the Polo called the OKO Polo, and it had a tiny 2 cylinder diesel engine with a G-Ladder supercharger from the G40 engine. I think in terms of fuel consumption, it got 3L/100KMs which is around 78 MPG. So... Even big companies had crazy ideas like this. Best wishes, Jimbo!
Years ago, I purchased a 1970 Chrysler Newport that was bought and sold new in Yellowknife Northwest Territories. It had a number of interesting modifications to keep it alive in a region that gets very cold and doesn't have paved roads.
The notable modifications were to the "cooling" system that kept the engine, fuel system, and occupants alive in regular -30 degrees (sometimes as cold as -50)
One of those was copper tubing wrapped tightly around the exhaust manifolds with coolant running through them. It looked like at one point the copper tube had header wrap over it to retain even more heat. One manifold had coolant that ran to the heater core and the other went to a 2bl carb spacer plate to keep it functional.
Sounds like a place where marine water-cooled exhaust headers would be in demand.
@@mfree80286 maybe, I have never really heard of or saw another setup like that and modern engines dont need it.
Back in the 70’s ford used a “Hi-C can” for vacuum. Basically just a giant sealed soup can with ports in and out that held vacuum. Also check a Warren CRR9-9 relay for a time delay. We use this on hvac stuff. Hope this helps.
There already is a "panic" switch in the Honda. Split the signal from brake lights to the pump through another relay. This might also keep the chattering at bay.
I usually just come here for my Moment Of Zen. But this episode I actually also learned a thing or two! For one I didn't know that diesels don't produce vacuum so now I know why the brake system on my diesel skoolie makes funny noises. And also I didn't know "rivnuts" were a thing that even existed!
I was thinking that my 94 ram and a bunch of the old Chevy s10s have a vacuum reservoir, with the Chevys looking like an old coffee can with a vacuum port on one end and otherwise sealed, and my Dodge using a plastic box with a vacuum port on it. That might give you some reserve capacity and help with the pump cycling?
Couple ideas if you put the vacuum switch close the booster the slight pressure line loss will reduce the chatter. For the safety switch you mention to run the pump why not use the brake switch to run the pump while braking? A nice old vacuum canister near the pump would also be a nice addition. Always enjoy your videos. I'm looking forward to the next one.
Great explanations today Jimbo. As an alternate hack solution, how about firing the vacuum pump relay with the brake light switch? Such that the pump only runs when the pedal is depressed. No vacuum switch, no hysteresis problem. 👍
This is what I would do as well. You're always going to press the brake at least once when starting the vehicle, and each time you press the brake, you would start the pump. You wouldn't need a vacuum switch, you wouldn't need the other fail safes since the design would be the fail safe. I would add a vacuum accumulator to get a little extra braking power, but the rest would probably self regulate without the extra fuss.
That was a whole lot less sketchy than I was expecting. Not wired into the brake lights? Fancy! 😅
Your new camera angle is so nice! We can see all the gauges and the road, and also some of the ancillary stuff like the turn signal lights. Nifty!
Your work is always artistry. Thank you.
I look forward to Sunday morning for Robot Cantina videos.
Thanks Jimbo !
Dang. I would want people to question my background, LOL ,love it here.
Good afternoon and thank you for always giving me reason to take a little sunday break
I run the same pump and vacuum switch on my 64 Chevelle wagon since my lumpy camshaft doesn't make enough vacuum for the regular booster. It works great so far!
Hey Jimbo! Thanks for the update! I always learn something new in your videos.
An in-line vacuum accumulator tank may remove the slight pressure variation that is actuating the switch so often. love the project! LS
Great video thanks for sharing
For your thermostat issue consider a washer. Circle track friend of mine told me about it once to help my Oldsmobile out. I used a 1/2" fender washer and opened it up to 5/8". It took a little longer to warm up but maintained temperature beautifully.
11:15 as a simple man myself, can confirm three pumps is all that's needed and definitely better than none
Thanks for the video. Like always very interesting information. 👍
Cheap/easy vacuum chatter fix: Add a vacuum reservoir --- Also gives you some extra capacity in case of a failure.
This is honestly the best daily driver car that this channel has had so far. Id daily this thing just for the fuel economy tbh
Excellent job.
The check valve in the pump may depend on its orientation, as in if you mount it vertically with the pump section at the top it'll work but upside down or horizontal mounting may make it inoperable.
I really enjoyed this this week’s video I haven’t given much thought about power brakes and I learned a few things about them thanks for sharing and looking forward to your next video
I recommend adding a vacuum reservoir. My old diesel has a small reservoir canister after the vacuum pump mounted on the alternator. There is also a low vacuum warning switch on the reservoir that trips my brake light. That may also help with your chattering.
Hey Jimbo, to help with the chatter, you could add in a vacuum reservoir, inline after the check valve, that along with the time delayed off would help run the vacuum pump for longer durations once it is on, and reduce the start/stop. Thanks for all the great content, been watching since Episode 1.
Maybe caused by relay chatter,can be solved by adding a resistor or flyback diode between the two coil terminals on the relay.
The motor and the relay both have an inductance and power should be eliminated from the system soon after the pressure switch disconnects.
Could also be just the pressure switch needing a hysteresis.
I love wago connectors. So simple and easy to use.
I appreciate the proper electrical work and security that you strive for. This build is a great one to watch. Thanks for posting videos as often as you do.
Cool video,there is a vacuum switch available that has a pressure on and off adjustments. But like everything else pricey. Also you can add a vacuum reservoir using a pvc pipe with end caps. Works great and adds more pumps for your buck.
I used the exact same pump and check valve on my EV insight! And I did restore the EPS, it’s nice to have.
Used this same exact setup on an autocross car that was converted to ITBs. Works great.
I love this channel because eventually you'll upgrade to a car engine. Just kidding, you guys are spearheading research that no one has thought to do yet. Cheers!
Power brakes?.
Propa Fancy.
Well done Jimbo! 😎
P.s If that supercharger turns it into a scolded cat, the your new nickname becomes Jimbo Jet!!
I'm impressed you put the vac switch on the relay earth. Even car manufacturers sometimes switch hot wires.
Can't wait for next week - 7 sleeps, 6 sleeps, 5 sleeps ....
More quality content thanks jimbo! Keep em coming.
Absolutely great vid! 👏👏👏
Jumbo, nice explanations for those who don't know electric circuits, hysteresis, and how vacuum assist works. Thumbs Up!
Love your content and format. 👍👍👍
Very clear explanation!
If you had put a capacitor in that system, I would have questioned your qualifications also. I am not an engineer just a crazy mechanic like you. Have a super blessed week.
You may want to look into outboard motor thermostats. They come in all kinds of sizes and temps.
Hey jimbo another great video my friend! Thanks!
You make Sunday's awesome again!
Nice I like the video but omg im dying to see what that supercharger does
Hey, Jimbo, you need to put a vacuum reservoir on your vac system. That will solve your chatter problem and provide you with more than 3 applications of the brakes.
Absolutely fantastic episode mr
Thanks for explaining the Jungle euphemism
I once used a fire extinguisher as a vacuum reservior on my samurai. I had toyota 4 piston calipers on the front. Geo tracker front calipers on the rear and in 80s trans am 4 wheel disc mastercylinder. I was using a motorcycle carb so it would nearly run sideways. A quick stab of the brakes would let my engine stumble at idle. The extinguisher worked great.
On some diesels, or gasoline vehicles such as Mercedes, which use, used, vacuum servos for central locking, a vacuum accumulator is used. This is typically a chamber which stores a larger vacuum capacity, thus preventing the hunting, or chatter of the vacuum control switch, and would allow more brake servo applications before vacuum depletion.
Been watching your stuff for awhile i wish i could figure out how to be this chill / structured in my video making .. soon as i push the record button my brain shuts off 😂
Next time you should put a 2-smoker triple in it. An Insight will look better as it leaves a cloud of smoke.
You could call it the 'Outofsight.' Generates its own concealing smokescreen.
Old japanese diesel engines has the vacuum pump on alternator built in ! They need engine oil circulation though....
30 seconds ago! Now thats a treat!
First loser! Now THAT'S a treat for everyone else but you!
What a great sunday mornings wake up video..... Thanks,
I'm sure someone else has already mentioned this, but for the supercharger drive belt, you can use a belt suited for lawn mowers, as most of them are aramid reinforced and are rated to bent in either direction. Use A series for 1/2" wide or B series for 5/8" wide. Hope this helps.
Might want to add an accumulator tank, help with pedal use and pump cycling. Ford used a can in 70's with fitting attached, GM used plastic spheres, they needed to manage vacuum with emissions control actuators.
A simple solution for the thermostat issue.
Toss it in the bin and splice in a heater control valve.
You can get them in electric or cable and they are fairly cheap brand new.
You might need to run two in parallel if they don’t make one as big as the main coolant hose.
I didn't know how the brake boost system worked until now - this was a fantastic video. Thanks Jimbo.
You uhh.. You built a lot of stuff like this before? If so, I wish you would video it and show it on your channel.
Thank you for this video! I've been curious about power brakes and how (or if) you had addressed it.
Jimbo, I i haven't finished watching the video yet, but my recommendation for the brake system vacuum assist is to add a vacuum accumulator in between the booster and the check valve. It'll give you a vacuum reservoir to allow more frequent brake application without running the pump school often.
Great job , Jimbo
Good day Jimbo. One solution to the vacuum chatter could be is to put a air restrictor on the switch. The idea is to slowing the air flow in the switch from engaging and disengaging. Enjoy your experiments.
I'm glad you pointed out the capacitor non-solution option that i know a lot of people would have claimed was the fix. The kind of capacitor it would have taken to keep that relay actuated for enough time would have caused a huge inrush current when the vacuum switch closes, and likely have quickly destroyed it along with whatever ignition switch contactor it was being powered from.
Very helpful episode as someone who will be using the same pump from a gm di car on a high boost turbo car. Gm run them split with the intake so its a booster but it's still important.
Great videos as always!!! I had a 1983 Toyota SR-5 diesel pickup years back. It had an alternator which also was a vacuum pump.
Kind of pricey compared to the gasoline powered alternators.
"Meh, good enough" This is a quote from Jimbo's favorite greek philosopher Mediocratus.
Im old enough now to remember getting a bad new aftermarket part was a surprise.
Now I expect a 50/50 out come.
I will never watch you swap a 350 but as long as you keep doing this beautifully executed goofiness you own me. (If I was going to watch a 350 swap it would only be you)
Sunday is Robot Cantina time
Nice Video as allways.
As someone who's been here since the first video, "fast forward a couple of years" hit me right in the mid-life crisis.
keep going, you are on the right way.