Thanks for the post, but I didn't hear anything about, which EVs it's compatible with? (And tell Tom at least Ford finally made it V2X offering compatible with the Mach E.... So it makes a little more sense since I transfer switch wouldn't work for the Mach E... But for EVs with inverters there are quite a few less expensive options such as transfer switches or interlocks. Which I kept mentioning when you first posted about the Ford Pro option. i'm glad you finally agree with everybody that used common sense about it lol ) But until we get crossed compatibility and interoperability with the different components, including for different brands of EVs .... It really doesn't make much sense.... And its value proposition is going to be limited at best, IMHO
During Hurricane Milton Sarasota Florida was out of gas for 8 days. Had power but no gas. When gas came it was only regular. My EV friends never stopped driving. They were able to help others needing travel. If i lost power V2H Would be awesome, even without solar i could power my home 4 days from my car then go to a supercharger and start again. Why we want people off the grid. Self sufficient.
Great info! Tom, I really like your low cost alternative suggestion! I appreciate the guy from GM for all the info and taking time. One suggestion, avoid buzz phrases like “laser focused”. It definitely sets off my BS meter.
The GM rep was basically a marketing/sales guy, but at least he understood the subject matter... And like it or not marketing people tend to use buzzwords.... Good luck not getting triggered by it...
So many great points, Tom!! (Edited) With, for example, a $200/mo utility bill, when would a $13,000 power wall pay back? A $20k solar system may have a payback under 10 years but the monthly savings are greater.
Nope.... Since that assumes free electricity (at least during some periods) and no efficiency losses and no battery capacity losses and zero maintenance cost. etc, etc, etc. (My local utility offers a whole 20% savings And more than triples the peak rate, which is why I'm on a fixed rate plan) So thanks for reminds me of the old adage.... “Statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics” But please disregard what I just said and buy and post about it in 5 and 1/2 years .....
@tommoloug Exactly. I bought an aftermarket transfer switch to power a portion of my house in a power outage. All I need is a 240V outlet on my Rivian and I'm ready to go. But nothing so far. I'm stuck with 1500W on the 120V outlet for now. At least I can power the refrigerator and the router when necessary. GM and Ford are missing the boat, most do not want the "integrated automagic" connection.
Totally agree with your main point.... But why didn't you include Rivian in that list? Since I'm not aware of them providing transfer switches or other more cost effective V2H options? Plus most EVs can't export a sufficient amount of AC power so a low-cost option such as a transfer switch is not an option. And Tesla's AC offering is pretty much limited just to the Cybertruck.... That's why Ford and GM Is exporting DC power with an external AC inverter. Which ends up making more sense if it's part of a solar power package. I'm just hoping for more interoperability and standardization. And there is already a backup generator market that can handle installing more cost effective options such as transfer switches. Which GM and Ford have no expertise in.
I do a Chevy Bolt EV with 1500 watt AC inverter power 10,000 watts of energy from when I get home from work to when I leave. A $10k Bolt EV, $4k in LiFe batteries and a $150 AC inverter does it all.
I love the idea of being able to use your usually larger "power wall" that sits under your EV to power your residence when the power goes out. For extended outages it makes sense to be able to go out and charge your EV and bring back more power. That being said, the Achilles heel is having to have your vehicle at home (and sufficiently charged at the time) to make it all work. Currently having power wall(s) installed with appropriate connections to your residence seems the safer bet. Keeping the power walls charged with cheaper power (for those of us who have peak demand billing) makes more sense.
Just need more (easily portable) battery swapping options. To increase the flexibility of their use. "cheaper power (for those of us who have peak demand billing)"? Please tell my local utility. Since they finally started offering a variable rate plan but it's off-peak rate is only about 20% below the fixed rate..... And the peak rate is about three times higher than the standard fixed rate.... So the usefulness of home battery storage is not really that useful for some people....
This guy really says a lot without saying anything. He also totally dodged Tom's question about using the onboard inverters on the truck. That's obviously a way better solution and much more affordable, which is why many many people are doing that over an off-board inverter.
Actually the GM rep did answer the question. He just didn't give you the answer you wanted. There's about a half a dozen merits that the system has vs using a transfer switch. By the way I actually mentioned simpler cheaper options. To Tom before he tested the Ford pro V2H system....Which have been used in concert with backup generators for decades... .But he kind of blew me off.... Now he's just discovered it's merits LOL. Every option has its own trade-offs.... Biggest issue is the lack of standardization and interoperability....
Good morning guys good to see you I was very please on Saturday I got myself a 2024 Lightning XLT with Max tow package took add vantage of those very nice financing rates and incentives from Ford I did not get the charger but I did take the $2,000 off the vehicle it is the smaller battery but that's okay I wanted the max tow package and tow Tech package and also having that smaller battery you do get more carry weight in the back I will be using it for work
I want to know if the GM system works with other EV brands? I have Silverado EV RST but in a few years, I may have a different brand EV and still want to do V2H.
I'm all for solar and wind power but they're intermittent.... So they cause more problems for the grid... And people buy EVs to drive, them not as a form of backup power, so it's not necessarily going to be available in an emergency..... I don't want to be negative but there's just too much wishful thinking, On the subject matter.
The devil's in the details.... For example most V2L EVs have too low of a power output rate, to make them useful in terms of powering a home .... And there are plenty of other cost effective options besides a transfer switch.... Plus most people buy an EV to drive it. So there is a good chance it's not going to be available when it's needed for an outage.... . So a backup generator is the most cost effective option for most people. ( I love devices that can do more than one thing but in this case it really doesn't make much sense) Hopefully we'll get EV swappable batteries someday...
I wouldn't say it's a lot cheaper.... After seeing the cost of getting the Tesla system installed at Kyle's residence.... But yes it's cheaper and less flexible.... For example the Tesla system only works with the Cybertruck.... And no other Tesla is going to be compatible with it unless they start offering AC output from other models.... Plus Ford and GM can you use their v2h systems across their EV lineup... Plus the additional cost gives you most of the electronic parts needed for a PV solar system.... Like most options there are trade-offs.... All of these systems need greater standardization and interoperability....
In order to support emergency service or energy arbitrage the system must be able to switch between the grid to the vehicle battery without interruption. If your home power drops out for 40 or 50 seconds every time a switch over occurs time has to be reset on DVRs, clocks, irrigation timers, and so on. This is OK for an emergency but a real pain in the rear if you want to use solar energy during peak periods (arbitrage). I might be wrong but I don’t believe the GM system can do this. I own a Tesla Powerwall and the switching between grid and Powerwall is seamless. I’m waiting to see if switching between grid and an EV will be equally seamless?
PV including other external energy inputs is the best part..... Since it's agnostic about it... But until we get crossed compatibility and interoperability with the different components, including for different brands of EVs .... It really doesn't make much sense.... And its value proposition is going to be limited at best, IMHO
Ironically, this whole video is about a hybrid AC charging /DC coupled system that is basically incompatible with the NACS connector since it uses AC and DC pins seperately to operate and the NACS connector does not have separate pins for AC and DC. This system is designed around the CCS1 connecctor, just like the Ford/SunRun system. It seems like this had to have been designed before adaoption of the NACS connector was announced.
The GM rep specifically stated that J-3400 (NACS) EVs can use an adapter. (and most likely the same is true for Ford's Pro V2X system) (Plus J-3400 and CCS use the same protocols that's why the adapters are considered dumb with only an additional electronic thermal switch inside them) While AC only systems, such as Tesla is offering can only be used with AC output capable EVs. Like the Cybertruck, which have AC output capability. (While DC output systems are theoretically compatible with all EVs) Lastly “Ironically” is an adverb that means in a way that is different from what is expected. So there was nothing ironic about it. Especially since it wasn't even part of the subject matter. SMH So sorry you were wrong on all counts.... BTW "hybrid AC charging /"DC coupled""? DC coupled? Is DC getting married???lol thanks for the gibberish ;) The problem with all of the systems is the lack of standardization and interoperability and cost. So the value proposition for all of them is questionable at best? Believe what you want and have a nice day. @@chriswestenskow5202
@@nc3826 I guess it struck me as ironic that you highlighted supercharger access and V2X as 2 key features, one of which is made simpler with the adoption of NACS and the other of which is made more complex due to the lack of simultaneous access to both the on-board charger for AC charging and DC battery power, caused by the limited number of conductors in the NACS connector. Perhaps Ironic was not a good choice of words for the situation. AC coupled and DC coupled are solar/battery industry terms used to describe the two types of battery systems that can be connected to your home. Historically solar systems that included batteries used string inverters that connected directly to the batteries via DC. The advent of stand alone batteries such as PowerWall and Enphase IQ batteries brought about battery systems with their own inverter(s). These are referred to as AC coupled. I’m sorry I use solar/battery terminology that you are not familiar with. It would seem like the use with an adapter might limit the use cases supported by the system, but I am hopeful that the industry will come up with creative solutions. I don’t disagree with your conclusion, hopefully the standards committees can finalize the protocols for V2X in the near future and we can move forward with systems that offer broader interoperability. Unfortunately, I don’t think the system that Ford, GM and Tesla are promoting will be adaptable to support those standards.
I'm not familiar with the GM V2L system. I have Kia's version using j1772 to do 15 amp 120 volt (wish they used 240 volt like Europe ) . Would a gm {or other brand} car with a NACS connector know how to do V2L AC through the charging pins? That would be using the J3400 standard. That would need a completely different interface for the V2H system. For my needs, A 240 Volt 6 kW output is needed system to pump water, heat pump etc. That's more than my car could supply. I could slowly charge a home battery system with it and use a transfer switch. That system would still cost over $6K, where a small gas generator and switch could install for much less.
A Jackery battery w/auto transfer switch for about $3K and charge the Jackery with the Kia 115V adapter. EVs should come with Heavy Duty 240V outlets. That would allow connection to a Transfer switch.
I always wondered if you could use a non-US V2L adapter such as from Europe on a US model.... Which would double the power output.... (If it's not recognized maybe there's an easy hack? Similar to how the BMW I3 REX US models were hacked to get the Upgraded features that were Degraded on the US model) And there are transformers that will convert it from 240 volts 50 HZ to 120 volts at 60 HZ.... Just have to make sure that it's capable of outputting enough amperage.... They're usually used by people that are going on vacation....
The post did mention that CCS/NACS adapters will be available... So that shouldn't be an issue. But the post should have mentioned what models it was compatible with? Since I have some doubts it'll even be compatible with all GM EVs? They talked about standardization but who knows when that will happen?
@@nc3826 Beyond my understanding how to get North American 240 volt split phase out of KIA's inverter designed to give 120 volts. My Neighbour used to import farm building fans which used German voltage and Frequency and they need to adapt them for North America.
This system does not appear to be standards based, it appears to be a proprietary, hybrid AC/DC systems similar to the Ford/SunRun system. Use with a NACS connector for anything beyind grid-down power backup will be technically difficult due to the lack of seperate AC and DC wires in the connector. Tom is correct that inexpensive, transfer switch based grid-down AC backup should be an offering. Using the NACS connector, proper V2X systems need to be either entirely AC or entirely DC. Entirely AC systems like the Tesla solution will be a hard sell to the utilities, since they basically allow roaming, potentially uncertified (by them) inverters to connect and interact with the grid. Entirely DC solutions (such as the Enphase prorotypes) with off-board inverters seem to be the most likely solutions to be accepted by the utility, and also allow a DC home charger to bypass the power limitations of the AC on-board charger.
That was all mentioned in the post.... The problem is there's no standard.... Just a lot of protocols.... But at least what Ford and GM is doing is more flexible, than what Tesla is offering.
@ The protocols are what the finalized standards will be comprised of. The problem is that none of them for V2X are finalized and when they do become finalized, most of the EVs on the road may not be able to be updated to support them. Ford, Telsa and GM all decided not to wait. Enphase is developing solutions based on the developing standards, but will not likely release a product offering until the standards are agreed to. I’m not a fan of the Tesla approach because it is the most proprietary and is entirely dependent on the on-board charger being bidirectional. I believe this also causes there to be a limitation that the EV can not provide inverter power to loads while AC charging. The inverter being “mobile” may also cause much grief for many utilities for any use case that involves the grid being operational (arbitrage, peak shaving etc.) The Ford and GM solutions are variations on a theme and are based on more or less “standard” solar inverters, with one of the battery inputs going to the EVs battery through the DC charging wires. I like that they use wall mounted inverters, since that is more likely to be accepted by nearly all utilities. The system the Enphase has prototyped works much more seamlessly, and I believe it will use DC charging to overcome the limitations of the NACS connector.
Protocols are not standards.... Even after they are officially finalized they will allow more than one way to perform a task.... Such as how energy is transferred from the vehicle to the home or grid via AC or DC.... Both will be an available option.... It's one of the reasons why CCS, DCFC has been so problematic in NA ... In Europe they created standards and in North America they simply defaulted to what Tesla was offering.... Since The supercharger Network Was so much more reliable vs CCS... What can I say sometimes a closed ecosystem monopoly is just more efficient.... V2X Is about a decade behind DCFC In terms of standardization and interoperability....
I would be interested in a low cost manual Transfer Switch which would allow energy to flow from the car into the house. With low cost energy and high reliable electrical grid a fully automated system is not necessary for me.
That would work for an EV such as a Ford Lightning, but not a Mach E.... or most EVs.... It also works for some hybrids such as the Ford f-150 hybrid.... Which don't have DC to AC export capabilities such as from an inverter... and what GM and Ford is doing makes more sense if it's part of a solar installation.... Since much of the electronics is already needed For a solar application...The automated aspect is secondary.. But if you just want backup power from your Ford Lightning.... yeah get a transfer switch or an interlock or a few other options installed... And it's strange how many people just repeated what Tom already said...
Without scale (and innovation), they are not going to get the price down. They seem to just be following where the market is going by trying to copy what market-leaders are offering, and that usually doesn't end well for legacy companies in a disrupted market. For the sake of my tax money, I wish them the best...
"They seem to just be following where the market is going?" Who are they and who are they following? and how? Since it's a new market, how are they following anybody? sorry my background's in engineering and finance so buzzword gibberish confuses me
@ GM, following others like Tesla and many others that make home energy products already. Unfortunately GM is a supplier parts catalog assembly manufacturer (well mostly a bank and spare parts seller) so this is farther away from their skillset than making an EV, and that is already a task they have struggled a lot with.
"GM, following .... Tesla"? Wrong again, for example one uses DC feedback the other uses AC. And what happened to the lack of scalability issue? Thank you for clarifying That your comments are only based on a disparaging narrative of GM. And are devoid of any relevant facts. FWIW, i'm not defending GM. Just pointing out what you're stating is not based on actual facts just rationalizations. Which apparently what is what social media is all about, so my bad, Enjoy.
While technically elegant, these products are too expensive. Rather than power specific circuits during an outage, I prefer to power my entire house and simply limit load to battery or generator capacity. This way, I can use any electrical device.
Can't wait to see V2G and other solutions like this implemented in our lifes more widely.
Great podcast episode 😊❤
Thanks for the post, but I didn't hear anything about, which EVs it's compatible with?
(And tell Tom at least Ford finally made it V2X offering compatible with the Mach E.... So it makes a little more sense since I transfer switch wouldn't work for the Mach E... But for EVs with inverters there are quite a few less expensive options such as transfer switches or interlocks. Which I kept mentioning when you first posted about the Ford Pro option. i'm glad you finally agree with everybody that used common sense about it lol )
But until we get crossed compatibility and interoperability with the different components, including for different brands of EVs .... It really doesn't make much sense.... And its value proposition is going to be limited at best, IMHO
I'd love to see a test case done in California or Hawaii, TOU rates and simple bar graph will illustrate the savings for high cost utility locations.
This was the best episode you have ever run - I loved it.
During Hurricane Milton Sarasota Florida was out of gas for 8 days. Had power but no gas. When gas came it was only regular. My EV friends never stopped driving. They were able to help others needing travel. If i lost power V2H Would be awesome, even without solar i could power my home 4 days from my car then go to a supercharger and start again. Why we want people off the grid. Self sufficient.
Great info! Tom, I really like your low cost alternative suggestion! I appreciate the guy from GM for all the info and taking time. One suggestion, avoid buzz phrases like “laser focused”. It definitely sets off my BS meter.
The GM rep was basically a marketing/sales guy, but at least he understood the subject matter... And like it or not marketing people tend to use buzzwords.... Good luck not getting triggered by it...
So many great points, Tom!!
(Edited)
With, for example, a $200/mo utility bill, when would a $13,000 power wall pay back? A $20k solar system may have a payback under 10 years but the monthly savings are greater.
Nope.... Since that assumes free electricity (at least during some periods) and no efficiency losses and no battery capacity losses and zero maintenance cost. etc, etc, etc. (My local utility offers a whole 20% savings And more than triples the peak rate, which is why I'm on a fixed rate plan)
So thanks for reminds me of the old adage.... “Statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics”
But please disregard what I just said and buy and post about it in 5 and 1/2 years .....
I didn't catch that Tom's price probably didn't include solar panels. Even at $20k, the payback is still under 10 years.
Sorry...For confusing you with reality...
As an engineer I would need to see a spreadsheet of the relevant data points and options.....
There's nothing confusing here. But definitely just a very rough ballpark number, not even a budget number.
Got you.... It's all based on YT guessing... Good luck with that...
@tommoloug Exactly. I bought an aftermarket transfer switch to power a portion of my house in a power outage. All I need is a 240V outlet on my Rivian and I'm ready to go. But nothing so far. I'm stuck with 1500W on the 120V outlet for now. At least I can power the refrigerator and the router when necessary. GM and Ford are missing the boat, most do not want the "integrated automagic" connection.
Totally agree with your main point.... But why didn't you include Rivian in that list? Since I'm not aware of them providing transfer switches or other more cost effective V2H options? Plus most EVs can't export a sufficient amount of AC power so a low-cost option such as a transfer switch is not an option. And Tesla's AC offering is pretty much limited just to the Cybertruck....
That's why Ford and GM Is exporting DC power with an external AC inverter. Which ends up making more sense if it's part of a solar power package. I'm just hoping for more interoperability and standardization.
And there is already a backup generator market that can handle installing more cost effective options such as transfer switches. Which GM and Ford have no expertise in.
I do a Chevy Bolt EV with 1500 watt AC inverter power 10,000 watts of energy from when I get home from work to when I leave. A $10k Bolt EV, $4k in LiFe batteries and a $150 AC inverter does it all.
I love the idea of being able to use your usually larger "power wall" that sits under your EV to power your residence when the power goes out. For extended outages it makes sense to be able to go out and charge your EV and bring back more power. That being said, the Achilles heel is having to have your vehicle at home (and sufficiently charged at the time) to make it all work. Currently having power wall(s) installed with appropriate connections to your residence seems the safer bet. Keeping the power walls charged with cheaper power (for those of us who have peak demand billing) makes more sense.
Just need more (easily portable) battery swapping options. To increase the flexibility of their use.
"cheaper power (for those of us who have peak demand billing)"?
Please tell my local utility. Since they finally started offering a variable rate plan but it's off-peak rate is only about 20% below the fixed rate..... And the peak rate is about three times higher than the standard fixed rate.... So the usefulness of home battery storage is not really that useful for some people....
This guy really says a lot without saying anything. He also totally dodged Tom's question about using the onboard inverters on the truck. That's obviously a way better solution and much more affordable, which is why many many people are doing that over an off-board inverter.
Actually the GM rep did answer the question. He just didn't give you the answer you wanted. There's about a half a dozen merits that the system has vs using a transfer switch.
By the way I actually mentioned simpler cheaper options. To Tom before he tested the Ford pro V2H system....Which have been used in concert with backup generators for decades... .But he kind of blew me off.... Now he's just discovered it's merits LOL.
Every option has its own trade-offs.... Biggest issue is the lack of standardization and interoperability....
Good morning guys good to see you I was very please on Saturday I got myself a 2024 Lightning XLT with Max tow package took add vantage of those very nice financing rates and incentives from Ford I did not get the charger but I did take the $2,000 off the vehicle it is the smaller battery but that's okay I wanted the max tow package and tow Tech package and also having that smaller battery you do get more carry weight in the back I will be using it for work
I want to know if the GM system works with other EV brands? I have Silverado EV RST but in a few years, I may have a different brand EV and still want to do V2H.
Ai electricity demand will force many states become more solar and EV friendly for their power storage capacity.
I'm all for solar and wind power but they're intermittent.... So they cause more problems for the grid...
And people buy EVs to drive, them not as a form of backup power, so it's not necessarily going to be available in an emergency.....
I don't want to be negative but there's just too much wishful thinking, On the subject matter.
V2L with transfer switch seems cost effective for now.
The devil's in the details.... For example most V2L EVs have too low of a power output rate, to make them useful in terms of powering a home .... And there are plenty of other cost effective options besides a transfer switch....
Plus most people buy an EV to drive it. So there is a good chance it's not going to be available when it's needed for an outage.... .
So a backup generator is the most cost effective option for most people. ( I love devices that can do more than one thing but in this case it really doesn't make much sense)
Hopefully we'll get EV swappable batteries someday...
Tom, I agree AC out seems a lot cheaper. Is the Tesla Cybertruck home backup product AC out? If so, how does it work and what is cost?
I wouldn't say it's a lot cheaper.... After seeing the cost of getting the Tesla system installed at Kyle's residence.... But yes it's cheaper and less flexible.... For example the Tesla system only works with the Cybertruck.... And no other Tesla is going to be compatible with it unless they start offering AC output from other models....
Plus Ford and GM can you use their v2h systems across their EV lineup... Plus the additional cost gives you most of the electronic parts needed for a PV solar system....
Like most options there are trade-offs.... All of these systems need greater standardization and interoperability....
In order to support emergency service or energy arbitrage the system must be able to switch between the grid to the vehicle battery without interruption. If your home power drops out for 40 or 50 seconds every time a switch over occurs time has to be reset on DVRs, clocks, irrigation timers, and so on. This is OK for an emergency but a real pain in the rear if you want to use solar energy during peak periods (arbitrage). I might be wrong but I don’t believe the GM system can do this. I own a Tesla Powerwall and the switching between grid and Powerwall is seamless. I’m waiting to see if switching between grid and an EV will be equally seamless?
Seems like GM has it all with TSuC access and V2H. Hopefully, Solar is next.
PV including other external energy inputs is the best part..... Since it's agnostic about it...
But until we get crossed compatibility and interoperability with the different components, including for different brands of EVs .... It really doesn't make much sense.... And its value proposition is going to be limited at best, IMHO
Ironically, this whole video is about a hybrid AC charging /DC coupled system that is basically incompatible with the NACS connector since it uses AC and DC pins seperately to operate and the NACS connector does not have separate pins for AC and DC. This system is designed around the CCS1 connecctor, just like the Ford/SunRun system. It seems like this had to have been designed before adaoption of the NACS connector was announced.
The GM rep specifically stated that J-3400 (NACS) EVs can use an adapter.
(and most likely the same is true for Ford's Pro V2X system) (Plus J-3400 and CCS use the same protocols that's why the adapters are considered dumb with only an additional electronic thermal switch inside them)
While AC only systems, such as Tesla is offering can only be used with AC output capable EVs. Like the Cybertruck, which have AC output capability. (While DC output systems are theoretically compatible with all EVs)
Lastly “Ironically” is an adverb that means in a way that is different from what is expected. So there was nothing ironic about it. Especially since it wasn't even part of the subject matter. SMH
So sorry you were wrong on all counts.... BTW "hybrid AC charging /"DC coupled""? DC coupled? Is DC getting married???lol thanks for the gibberish ;)
The problem with all of the systems is the lack of standardization and interoperability and cost. So the value proposition for all of them is questionable at best?
Believe what you want and have a nice day.
@@chriswestenskow5202
@@nc3826 I guess it struck me as ironic that you highlighted supercharger access and V2X as 2 key features, one of which is made simpler with the adoption of NACS and the other of which is made more complex due to the lack of simultaneous access to both the on-board charger for AC charging and DC battery power, caused by the limited number of conductors in the NACS connector. Perhaps Ironic was not a good choice of words for the situation.
AC coupled and DC coupled are solar/battery industry terms used to describe the two types of battery systems that can be connected to your home. Historically solar systems that included batteries used string inverters that connected directly to the batteries via DC. The advent of stand alone batteries such as PowerWall and Enphase IQ batteries brought about battery systems with their own inverter(s). These are referred to as AC coupled. I’m sorry I use solar/battery terminology that you are not familiar with.
It would seem like the use with an adapter might limit the use cases supported by the system, but I am hopeful that the industry will come up with creative solutions.
I don’t disagree with your conclusion, hopefully the standards committees can finalize the protocols for V2X in the near future and we can move forward with systems that offer broader interoperability. Unfortunately, I don’t think the system that Ford, GM and Tesla are promoting will be adaptable to support those standards.
What happens if you sell your car for another brand?
I'm not familiar with the GM V2L system. I have Kia's version using j1772 to do 15 amp 120 volt (wish they used 240 volt like Europe ) .
Would a gm {or other brand} car with a NACS connector know how to do V2L AC through the charging pins? That would be using the J3400 standard. That would need a completely different interface for the V2H system.
For my needs, A 240 Volt 6 kW output is needed system to pump water, heat pump etc. That's more than my car could supply. I could slowly charge a home battery system with it and use a transfer switch. That system would still cost over $6K, where a small gas generator and switch could install for much less.
A Jackery battery w/auto transfer switch for about $3K and charge the Jackery with the Kia 115V adapter. EVs should come with Heavy Duty 240V outlets. That would allow connection to a Transfer switch.
I always wondered if you could use a non-US V2L adapter such as from Europe on a US model.... Which would double the power output.... (If it's not recognized maybe there's an easy hack? Similar to how the BMW I3 REX US models were hacked to get the Upgraded features that were Degraded on the US model)
And there are transformers that will convert it from 240 volts 50 HZ to 120 volts at 60 HZ.... Just have to make sure that it's capable of outputting enough amperage.... They're usually used by people that are going on vacation....
The post did mention that CCS/NACS adapters will be available... So that shouldn't be an issue.
But the post should have mentioned what models it was compatible with? Since I have some doubts it'll even be compatible with all GM EVs? They talked about standardization but who knows when that will happen?
@@nc3826 Beyond my understanding how to get North American 240 volt split phase out of KIA's inverter designed to give 120 volts. My Neighbour used to import farm building fans which used German voltage and Frequency and they need to adapt them for North America.
@@BillB33525 Probably best to buy a F150 Lightning or Sierra . Most people in the rural area just get a Generac and a large propane tank.
This system does not appear to be standards based, it appears to be a proprietary, hybrid AC/DC systems similar to the Ford/SunRun system. Use with a NACS connector for anything beyind grid-down power backup will be technically difficult due to the lack of seperate AC and DC wires in the connector.
Tom is correct that inexpensive, transfer switch based grid-down AC backup should be an offering.
Using the NACS connector, proper V2X systems need to be either entirely AC or entirely DC. Entirely AC systems like the Tesla solution will be a hard sell to the utilities, since they basically allow roaming, potentially uncertified (by them) inverters to connect and interact with the grid. Entirely DC solutions (such as the Enphase prorotypes) with off-board inverters seem to be the most likely solutions to be accepted by the utility, and also allow a DC home charger to bypass the power limitations of the AC on-board charger.
That was all mentioned in the post.... The problem is there's no standard.... Just a lot of protocols....
But at least what Ford and GM is doing is more flexible, than what Tesla is offering.
@ The protocols are what the finalized standards will be comprised of. The problem is that none of them for V2X are finalized and when they do become finalized, most of the EVs on the road may not be able to be updated to support them. Ford, Telsa and GM all decided not to wait. Enphase is developing solutions based on the developing standards, but will not likely release a product offering until the standards are agreed to.
I’m not a fan of the Tesla approach because it is the most proprietary and is entirely dependent on the on-board charger being bidirectional. I believe this also causes there to be a limitation that the EV can not provide inverter power to loads while AC charging. The inverter being “mobile” may also cause much grief for many utilities for any use case that involves the grid being operational (arbitrage, peak shaving etc.)
The Ford and GM solutions are variations on a theme and are based on more or less “standard” solar inverters, with one of the battery inputs going to the EVs battery through the DC charging wires. I like that they use wall mounted inverters, since that is more likely to be accepted by nearly all utilities.
The system the Enphase has prototyped works much more seamlessly, and I believe it will use DC charging to overcome the limitations of the NACS connector.
Protocols are not standards.... Even after they are officially finalized they will allow more than one way to perform a task.... Such as how energy is transferred from the vehicle to the home or grid via AC or DC.... Both will be an available option....
It's one of the reasons why CCS, DCFC has been so problematic in NA ... In Europe they created standards and in North America they simply defaulted to what Tesla was offering.... Since The supercharger Network Was so much more reliable vs CCS... What can I say sometimes a closed ecosystem monopoly is just more efficient....
V2X Is about a decade behind DCFC In terms of standardization and interoperability....
I would be interested in a low cost manual Transfer Switch which would allow energy to flow from the car into the house. With low cost energy and high reliable electrical grid a fully automated system is not necessary for me.
That would work for an EV such as a Ford Lightning, but not a Mach E.... or most EVs.... It also works for some hybrids such as the Ford f-150 hybrid....
Which don't have DC to AC export capabilities such as from an inverter... and what GM and Ford is doing makes more sense if it's part of a solar installation.... Since much of the electronics is already needed For a solar application...The automated aspect is secondary..
But if you just want backup power from your Ford Lightning.... yeah get a transfer switch or an interlock or a few other options installed...
And it's strange how many people just repeated what Tom already said...
Without scale (and innovation), they are not going to get the price down. They seem to just be following where the market is going by trying to copy what market-leaders are offering, and that usually doesn't end well for legacy companies in a disrupted market. For the sake of my tax money, I wish them the best...
"They seem to just be following where the market is going?" Who are they and who are they following? and how? Since it's a new market, how are they following anybody?
sorry my background's in engineering and finance so buzzword gibberish confuses me
@ GM, following others like Tesla and many others that make home energy products already. Unfortunately GM is a supplier parts catalog assembly manufacturer (well mostly a bank and spare parts seller) so this is farther away from their skillset than making an EV, and that is already a task they have struggled a lot with.
"GM, following .... Tesla"? Wrong again, for example one uses DC feedback the other uses AC. And what happened to the lack of scalability issue?
Thank you for clarifying That your comments are only based on a disparaging narrative of GM. And are devoid of any relevant facts.
FWIW, i'm not defending GM. Just pointing out what you're stating is not based on actual facts just rationalizations. Which apparently what is what social media is all about, so my bad, Enjoy.
@@nc3826 DC “feedback” lol. Ok bot. 🤖
"feedback-"-- something going in the opposite direction than the norm..... Sorry to confuse you Einstein...
While technically elegant, these products are too expensive. Rather than power specific circuits during an outage, I prefer to power my entire house and simply limit load to battery or generator capacity. This way, I can use any electrical device.