China does not have an "overcapacity" of battery production. It is a net exporter of batteries, just as other countries are next exporters of other products. "Overcapacity" would be more than global demand. Also, China does not "just do it". Chinese have been working on battery technology for 3 decades, have leading technology and have highly automate production (a necessity for quality ad safety).
EU slam tariff on Chinese EV because of anti subsidy and overcapacity which are excuses to hide their own failure of slow reaction on EV. Why BYD successful? Everyone knows BYD was founded as battery company and they established the car manufacturing segment they were in disadvantage of producing ICE cars back then. But now the globe is about environment friendly and green to move to EV. This exactly benefit to BYD who produce their own battery and integrate into the EV car and they save the cost of buying battery from 3rd party.
Has the EU already lost the lithium battery war? what a joke .Don't you know what level you are on? When did the EU become a competitor of China? A fictional competitor? China's real competitor is only LG SK from South Korea. The saddest thing for a person is to have no self-awareness.
Has the EU already lost the lithium battery war? what a joke .Don't you know what level you are on? When did the EU become a competitor of China? A fictional competitor? China's real competitor is only LG SK samsung,from South Korea and Panasonic TOYOTA from Japan. The top 10 ,5 from China.The saddest thing for a person is to have no self-awareness.Just like the US never considered Myanmar a competitor, even making this film, they didn't want to open eyes to reality but rather chose to deceive themselves.
It's funny that Germans don't even realize how much state sponsored propaganda is done on their channels. Germany is deeply in trouble because of their lies.
@@Languslangus lol, where have you been all those years? This is the European modus operandi since the Age of Discovery. They never, ever, did anything but force poorer nations to suffer for their bennefit
It’s not just quantity coming out of china it’s the quality of the battery products as well china is doing an amazing job on innovation in the battery industry . They aren’t going to slow down either
Yep. And, to compound the issues, batteries are one segment where improvements to both batteries and the manufacture tech makes not only for better products, but also for *cheaper* products; if you improve energy density by 25% without increasing costs, for example, this means you can drop your battery's physical size, weight, *and price* by a third without reducing its energy or cutting into your margins. Unless someone else can match China's R&D on Battery - a tall order, since China produces about two thirds of all high-quality research articles on battery tech in the world, and its largest battery makers are in a research consortium to improve the efficiency of their research - then China will maintain a commanding lead.
China is mostly about cheap, low-end LFP batteries. China's competitive advantage is their dominance in the global raw material/mineral supply-chain. They are still limited by the fact that Japan and South Korea most of lithium ion battery IP -- not to mention there is a looming IP patent war in the East which will soon spill over to the EU.
@@tooltalk China holds the majority of the *new* patents on lithium-ion batteries, though, as well as the lead on the *impactful* patents; this means as patents expire China is poised to become the uncontested leader in battery IP, even for older chemistries like lithium ion. It already is for newer chemistries; China has more people researching batteries than any other country, perhaps even more battery research people than the rest of the world added together (a natural reflection of the fact China takes in more than half the global revenue from battery sales). China is also forcing local companies to cooperate and share some battery research, which improves the efficiency of said research. And research in China is naturally cheaper than in the US, EU, or Japan (I'm not sure where Korea stands on research costs). Also, LFP was only truly low-end back before China got into the business of researching and improving it; now it has energy densities lower (though close) to that of NMC, but in exchange is more durable, safer, charges faster, emits less heat, and can provide more instant power. I frankly wouldn't even consider a car that didn't use LFP batteries, given the advantages of the chemistry; an NMC battery EV might have a slightly longer range, but an LFP one would be better in absolutely everything else.
@tooltalk lithium ion battery is an outdated technology by today's standards, because it has lesser energy density, it needs metal packaging and it burns very easy.
There is no lithium battery war, EU didn't lose anything because EU never even qualified to compete. Europe's problem is total ignorance of the subject matter: - Lithium mineral is cheap, it's not about the mineral, its about the processing and the processing technology - Its not about money, it's about knowing what to spend on, there is literally nobody in Europe, not in government, not in think tanks, not anywhere, who knows what to invest in. - Europe wants quick solutions when nothing is quick, China didn't invest in batteries and EVs yesterday. - China operates on meritocracy, Europe operates as a corruption aristocracy under a facade of democracy, until Europe solve their corruption problem, no competent leaders will ever come to power and no long term plans can ever be made.
50% of lithium mined in Australia, 70-90% of lithium processed in China, 75% of battery manufacturing in Europe owned by Koreans, and thumbnail shows China... OK edit: just finished watching it and China's barely even mentioned, very briefly a few times... come on
The competition isn’t over lithium batteries. It’s over batteries. Lithium based is just the must popular type currently. Doesn’t mean it’s the only option.
Na-ion batteries stores less energy per kg, so they are not a good choice for EVs, but a good choice for stationary storage. Variations of Li-ion batteries will continue to be best option for EVs.
@@Foersom_ for the foreseeable future. For the mainstream: yes. We’ll see what the future brings. Lithium is important but not the only horse in the race.
@@Foersom_ Yes they do store less energy than lithium ion. But already enough to power an EV. If we're looking for a solution that is environmentally friendly and politicly safe, and we want to keep using cars (although trains / bikes are so much better) - then we have to impose tempo 100km/h on highways like the Dutch did + stop thinking an EV has to accelerate to 100km/h in 3 or 2 seconds and produce 700HP. That's stupid. All we need is a clean individual transport solution from A to B. With as little environmental footprint as possible. 💁♂️
Imagine work and invest hard in the past 3 decades and succeeded in the leading position, some sore losers came to your face and saying they lost the "war", you be like "wut?" That's how China feels when they watch this hot air story
the same story is in Romania the main problem is that you want to mine a country's natrual resources using a foreign company. Guess where most of the profits will go? Yeah... definetly not to the country...
Sadly the EU is the winner at losing. If we at least tried to follow draghi's plan, then we could maybe compete with the US and China. Sadly we keep the idea of irrational austerity, so we're doomed to keep failing.
@@vlhc4642 if you undertood that by irrational austerity I was referring to a person, then you already got the comment wrong. Yes, there is irrational austerity and despite all my critics of the US, this is something they know damn well will hurt their economy, so they never do. Look at Germany(and other EU countries) during 2008 and the US. Compare our answers to the crisis and you can see the result, it's staggerig.
@@TheBielrangel There is no separate European response, the response was coordinated, US and EU can't both print trillions and not have massive inflation, Europe had to adopt austerity for US printing to work. Both US and EU run massive trade deficits and produces less and less things of value, its the collective west that's broke with have delusions of wealth.
China and USA did the investments and now EU is punishing China with tariffs for BEV's which have the batteries in them. China decided to stop investing in factories for Europe as soon as the tariffs where activated. Europe is killing itself form within and if it were to provide the funding there is no way to make a claim that the funding form the Chinese or US governments are not allowed while the one form Eu would be ok.
You will not mine lithium in Serbia, you are not even aware of how stubborn the Serbian people are. All the money you gave the Serbian government to lobby for Rio Tinto is for nothing. The vast majority is against it.
Misprint at 8:38, narrator says battery factory in Europe is 50 times more expensive - text says 50 percent. Other than that, its a realistic view of Europe's prosperity and how we keep it for ourselves.
A pretty concerning typo, to be honest. We could spot it because they provided the source on screen, but what kinds of evidence did they get wrong that they didn't show?
Wow, thanks for pointing it out. I wasn't looking at the screen at that moment and wondered how that could be possible. It's insane someone says that out loud without noticing there's probably a mistake.
As I am into this business of lithium & EV, I would like to inform you that recycled lithium doesn't have enough energy left which increases the electricity consumption to fully charge a battery, slower down the battery capacity & battery discharges faster
or developing alternatives. Sodium etc. Lithium might well be German of early semiconductors industry. Before anyone had time to worry who has German and who don't it was replaced with silicone chips 💁♂️
The EU in the past used to(still do, just not to Russia) depend on energy (fuel and gas) on foreign countries and now it's the same for batteries. . In the past century it feels like the EU has been systematically de-industrialized and made more and more dependent on foreign countries for critical resources.
It's copying the crappy US model on focusing more on services rather than industry. No wonder Norway doesn't want to join the EU as they want a robust industry and resource extraction, and the EU would just suck them dry once they got in.
That's how developed nations tend to be. Deindustrialize, offload your industries onto poorer nations with cheaper labor, and then complain about them doing most of the polluting
I agree with the speaker in the video: we have exported our polluting industries to other countries, we profit from cheap, unsafe labor elsewhere and then the conclusion is of course that we are too expensive! We must include environmental and social cost for products entering our market.
In Europe, only Germany is still revelant in tangible manufacturing and hi-tech industries, the others like Britain, France, Italy... are all de-industrialized to the degree they sell virtual financial services like stocks and insurance products as well as pharmaceuticals (Britain), tourism, perfumes, overvalued LV bags (France), pizza, pasta, macroni and tourism (Italy) ...... They are not relevant with the tangible hi-tech industries, especially the emerging hi-tech ones in the 21st century. Australia and New Zealand are just agricultural countries that sell sheep wools, mutton, beef, milk powder and earth minerals. Canada is...sorry, never heard of any hi-tech companies or even any products from Canada, it has a poor sense of presence when talking about technologies and stuffs. Japan is still somewhat a strong player but it is stagnant for too long and it's becoming not very competitive in more and more industries facing South Korea and China's tech rise. South Korea is increasingly competitive in hi-tech but in the emerging ones like AI, EV, automatic driving, brain-computer interface, quantum, 6G..., it is still largely irrelavant, the real black horse is China. China and the US are the true players in these emerging and disruptive technologies that will shape the future. So far, the US lacks industrial power in conventional hi-tech industries like shipbuidling, steel-making, semiconductor manufacturing, trucks, cranes and heavy machines manufacturing and others. China, on the other hand, is becoming a full-MVP player in both conventional and disruptive high technologies.
I’d say this to Serbia’s Bojana Novakovic (timestamp 5:12): Australia’s national economy is largely dependent on being one very large export mining pit. Its mining companies (Rio Tinto et al) pay only lip-service to indigenous Aboriginal culture, agricultural and horticultural land rights, social and environmental concerns, etc. But they basically bankroll governments of all political persuasions at both state and federal levels. So they reign supreme.
Your nation is as big as Europe. If they mine somewhere with no people in close proximity, it's not a problem at all. Serbia is small and they mine near villages where people live. Mining this material is extremely toxic and it ruins underground water, air, wildlife, etc. Why doesn't Germany mine its own lithium?
@@saellenx3528 EU has megadamms potential, onshore and offshore wind potential, and solar potential, enough, to become 100% green hydrogen economy all year. Totaly independent from the rest of the world. And the existing natural gaz pipelines, the majority can be converted to distribute the hydrogen between all the EU members. Hydrogen can be used for all types of vehicles, including aviation, and for heating as well. It has domestic and industrial use. Hydrogen economy. 100% independent from the rest of the world. Only need energy and sea water (fresh water even better).
@@ricardoxavier827 We're at an era of disassembling dams since they destroy or change ecosystems dramatically. Any fancy tech like Hydrogen has issues of its own, like cost, scalability, safety, etc. Otherwise, there are so many theoretically amazing possibilities.
China's advantage comes from battery technology including processing technology. It doesn't matter if its sodium or lithium, China's lead is invariant of the base mineral. If anything sodium is even worse because at least lithium used to be expensive and China has the pay the same as everyone else. With sodium competitiveness is entirely reliant on tech, which maximizes China's advantage.
Sounds like Serbia isn’t opposed to lithium mining, they’re opposed to the VERY REAL negative impacts from the current plans with mining. The company who wants to mine so badly should invest more money to make sure the mine doesn’t impact local residents. If they deem this impossible (too expensive in their opinion), then I guess they don’t really need to mine that badly after all.
It can take decades for new battery electrochemistry to become commercial. In the early 1980s, the white coat people first developed lithium materials, Spinels NMC, that sort of thing. A decade later, Sony did some great stuff after the patent transfer, commercializing them in the 1990s. Fast forward to today, we are still improving them through engineering.
Is it me or there was no correlation between current lithium extraction sites (north Europe, Poland, Romania, Greece) and the actual lithium “favorability index map”? 😅 If anything, the largest spot is right in the middle of France, which was not addressed here.😅 What’s going on?
If Rio Tinto is normal company and care about nature and people and have some standards maybe mining would be possible, but they are huge greedy company that destroy everything in process. Everyone knows that so everyone is against them and their mining in Serbia.
I think the EU is too emotionally sensitive. All countries are parts of the globalization, for example, China provides the best lithium batteries, the EU provide the best electrical motors. I think cooperation is still the theme of the future.
European potatoes are just awesome. Also Europe can do great milk and buy the cars and machinery from China. When you don't innovate for decades that's what happens.
Not likely its too expensive, Chinese cars are alredy much cheaper and with recycled batteries they will be even more cheaper. Would you buys German 50 000 dollars car if same size and quality Chinese car is 15 000?
For cellphones and laptops, yes. For cars and trucks and planes, no. Its better the hydrogen way. More energy dense and light, and infinite source, so no nation of the world can monopoly hydrogen, because to produce hydrogen we only need sea water and electricity. Anything that can be controlled, can be manipulated to stay scarce. Scarcity value are the game of the economic monopolies, and hydrogen blocks that psycopaths world monopoly plans..
Lithium is not the only solution for storage batteries. In fact Sodium has so much better properties for the application. Sodium is widely available in Europe and very helpful in using excess power from wind and solar.
That's the reason why CN is heavily investing in sodium battery technology, perhaps more than anyone else. They will not give up their massive lead easily.
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Europe wants its continental local environmental preservation cake and eat cheap batteries too, lmao. Get used to material dependence, prepare to pay out for local manufacture, or accept destruction of local landscape. There is no clean heavy industry, wake up from your armchairs.
"Europe" is not a hivemind, it's some 450 million people spread over a double dozen countries. And yes, it wants to preserve its environment while not depending on imports for all its materials and manufacturing. Combining the two is hard, but I find it misleading to pretend that this is an either/or situation.
Yeah, desalination can generate freshwater and sodium for batteries that need abundant non toxic components. With proper planning, people can have their cake and eat it. New desalination methods can produce water cheaper than traditional tap water. It's funded by China and created by MIT. Europe lost a lot of innovation to the US inflation reduction act. And we will need rewilded areas that can contain excessive water so that they don't burn in dry periods or flood in storms.
Yes, and I would also add the energy costs problem touched on in the video. Heavy industry needs consistent and cheap energy, which is either achieved by local fossil fuels (natural gas in MENA countries, USA, Russia and Argentina, coal in China) or some combination of hydro, nuclear and small/rare population (Scandinavian countries and Paraguay). None of that is feasible for any EU country south of Sweden because renewables are variable as of now, not a base load
@@Highollow ""Europe" is not a hivemind" Yes and that means it will be the end of industrialization and prospertity in Europe. If we do not start to "hive mind" then the Africans will take over from us. Or the middle east.
Labour costs are high in western Europe, but cheap in eastern Europe so that is not an argument of you see the EU for real as one and not fragmented protectionism
Chinese overcapacity claims are a red herring, none of the telltale signs of overcapacity are present in their battery industry (other than the fall in prices, which has other reasons). Battery prices have been falling consistently *and* quickly for over three decades as the tech improves - meaning this has been happening since *before* China started manufacturing most of the world's batteries - and they are expected to keep falling for the foreseeable future. One kWh of battery storage cost $7500 back in 1991, now it can be had in China for less than $50. Anyone who invests money on battery manufacturing expecting prices to somehow "recover" as the "overcapacity" solves itself is in for a harsh reality check and steep loses. Also, putting tariffs on batteries is a stupid move. Making batteries more expensive means all your downstream products that use batteries become less competitive; this would require also slapping tariffs on every imported good that uses batteries to prevent the local industry from collapsing (and dragging the battery industry that was supposed to be protected with it), and would still result in losing most of the export market for everything that uses batteries as outside your home market you would need to compete with products made with the cheaper batteries without the protection of tariffs.
10:53 The China Gov not "just does it", they consult or convince the locals if it is about mining. There are many cases that the local reject building of sewage plant or nuclear plant. So, don't under-estimate others effort and over exaggerate your own difficulties. Also, the so-called "over-capacity" of battery in China is a joke. Car manufacturers purchase from China battery companies, because of the high qualify and lower price, EU is welcome to make your own battery, noboby bans you from that.
It is a natural to rely on other countries, provided that there is no intention of engaging in warfare. There are, in fact, 100 other ways in which the EU are interdependent. The focus should be on the development of industry. The EU is currently preoccupied with catching up with other countries after the fact, which is an indication that it is stuck in its ways.
Europe is a fantastic place to vacation and Tech R&D, but not for heavy industries anymore. Electricity cost is high, renewables potential is limited, the workforce is rapdly getting old. There is no surprise, manufacturing anything is more competitive in US, China/Southeast Asia and probably South America.
By the time they catch up with Lithium China would've standardized sodium ion batteries in every car around the globe. What use is Lithium if Sodium ion is better in every way, you know cheaper, safer, more energy efficient, maybe they should focus on that instead to get ahead of the curve.
sodium cannot be better than lithium bateries in terms of performance due to physical limitations and simply higher weight of sodium (weight per electron transferred). It is too heavy for longer range vehicles. For simple uses in commuter minicars or stationary storage more than OK, for higher end EV´s - not so much.
It would be cheaper and quicker for the EU to accept Chinese batteries without tariffs or obstacles. The sooner and cheaper way to a carbon free future is so much more important than what future climate change will bring.
This is such a waste of time, if the west wants to compete they should be focused not on lithium but instead on micro and nano nuclear. The problem is the profit margins and motives for batteries and the overall reliance rather than a modular nano nuclear solution that would be multilayer compatible and globally standardised. Lots of companies have already been incredibly successful at scaling some of the way down like Rolls Royce for instance but we can go even smaller with the advances that will be possible in very short time frames.
So, you Europeans have fallen into a strange loop. In order to protect the environment, you can't mine, and since mining is expensive, you can't afford to invest in factories. Without factories, there is no production capacity, and without production capacity, electric cars are expensive. Expensive electric cars mean fewer people buy them, and fewer electric cars mean batteries aren't used, creating a deadlock. Now that there are cheap batteries from China, it seems that instead of promoting electric vehicles for environmental reasons, it's China and the United States that are pushing them forward. What's Europe doing? Especially France and Italy, who always think they're the most environmentally friendly, but when it comes to promoting electric vehicles, they suddenly talk about protecting their own automotive industry. As a result, they end up taxing Chinese electric vehicles, making them even more expensive, even fewer people buy them, and what was already a small lithium battery industry becomes even more萎缩. In the end, they suffer the consequences themselves. The EU always portrays China as a dragon from an American perspective, but in fact, they are fighting against the dragon they imagine, while the United States is actually bleeding them dry behind the scenes.
Another falsehood: what the USA does the EU cannot do because we are not a country but a federation of countries. Wrong: the USA is a federation. The EU a very evolved partnership of countries. Regrettably without own taxing and lending possibilities. So the money has to come mainly from the states and raising that amount is politically problematic and countries keep thinking at the national scale for investment which is penny wise pound foolish.
We are a bunch of 27 countries, this means one or more of the 27 with lithium deposits needs to be the sacrificial lamb for the eu. Same reason we can’t compete in tech because if we focus on creating a eu tech hub in Estonia For example,other countries need to give up their own country tech hub. In Portugal we already had scandal linked to lithium mine and environmental reports. We can become a refinery just like we did with oil, create a recycling lithium economy.
Lithium is not the best solution for grid scale battery storage. The advantage that Europe has over North America is it smaller geographical size enabling cheap and efficient mass transit. Increase investments in mass transit and increase taxes on individual motor vehicles, ICE or electric, would likely reduce the demand for individual motor vehicles and further increase adoption of mass transit. Also, sometimes it is good to set unrealistic goals since it can spur quicker development of more reasonable timelines.
Money makes the world go round. Follow the money and it makes sense. This whole climate change thing is about money. Europeans have nothing to offer businesses, they are not interested in mass transit, it is all about the mines and the ability to sell lithium cars and batteries GLOBALLY based on the shift in energy sources, unfortunately the Chinese got the jump on the U.S. and Europe. Hence the Tariff by both. Mass transit of for those who believe in climate change not money men.
>"8:28: China's projected 2030 capacity is about 4 TWh, which means the reace might already be over." What race? The EU only wants a _strategic_ reserve/production of Lithium and batteries. This is not a race to the moon, is it? I don't like the tone of this video, it's all over the place, discusses every challenge in a negative tone and all without discussing the trade-offs of each decision that needs to be made.
@@johnjingleheimersmith9259it's not just lithium. There's a whole infrastructure and planning deficit that needs a coordinated plan, not piecemeal patchwork. Desalination x sodium batteries. Solid state batteries. Manufacturing - we lost a lot of start-ups to the US a couple of years ago. Infrastructure, emergency response resources. Education for the future, retraining. If we did what China is doing in batteries and manufacturing, we'd do it better. We need bravery that we do not have in our current crop of leaders or wannabe leaders.
Sodium-Ion batteries ... anyone.... Why should the EU even try catch up with the Li-Ion technology ? By the time the EU will be able to make all this happen Sodium-Ion batteries will be mainstream and, we're back to square one...
China heavily invest in sodium batteries CATL is the biggest supplier of this type of battery in the world.They just opened the biggest energy storage that uses sodium batteries in Qianjiang. Do you think the rest of the world sleeps on new technologies? EU is far behind even in this technology. Plus they are not going to be used in a electric car production for a decades to come because of low energy density. Eu needs to get it together and invest in future technologies or we are not going to live as comfortably as we are used to.
The famous double negative. Education is the greatest thing anyone can invest in for the greatest return. I'm sure Bulgaria's inclusion in the EU was not for nothing and helped it benefit from investment.
@@unatwomey7112 It is what it is, but how i can get more money by investing in something which is not obtainable in EU. I can just buy it from China. Eu must find a way to produce another expensive products which can sell it to China.
@@danielgospodinov5786 Uraula can't find it. She will only spend European people's money to subsidize expensive European products and pretend to produce independently.
The EU is one of the wealthiest regions in the world. Its unreasonable to expect middle income countries to have salaries that are as high. They wouldn't be middle income if they did
Misreading information leads to all kinds of disruption. Right-wing fear frenzies have been a toxic mess. See the UK's unending austerity, which stems from right-wing inspired fear and incompetence. Disrupting trade, travel, hungry children, record nhs waiting lists. Not improved but worse. Not the ability to react but fear and isolation. Not global but declining. Very like Moscow.
Current lithium batteries are in no way environmently friendly, safe or cost effective. We need to develop new battery chemistry to make EVs worthwhile. The thermal run away issue only deters me from considering an EV. And the total environmental footprint of a new EV convinced me that driving fewer km on my current regular car is a more sensible choice. City driving at rush hour should be seriously taxed even for EVs.
That's where something like the US inflation reduction act would help. The game is not over because the makers of safe reliable batteries will win out but European countries have no leaders who will lead.
Thermal runaway is mainly an issue with NMC and similar chemistries, it's not much of an issue for LFP chemistries. An NMC battery pierced by a nail (worst case scenario for a battery) is likely to explode, a modern LFP battery mostly just smolders for a bit. And even NMC chemistries are on the average safer than a car with a fuel tank (which includes hybrids); the chance of a car with a fuel tank catching fire by itself is dozens of times more than that of an EV with an NMC battery catching fire. Bottom line, if you want safety, you are much better with a car equipped with an LFP battery than with an ICE car. The thing about LFP, though, is that modern LFP batteries are very much a Chinese tech; China took a tech from the 90s that western companies didn't want to use, made a deal allowing local companies to freely use and improve the tech as long as they refrained from exporting it until the early 2020s, and improved it to the point it's better in almost everything than the NMC chemistries western companies still favor.
@FabioCapela I am an insurance professional so quite aware of the risks. LFP is too recent technology and has to prove itself. NMC are predominant and IMO very risky in case of physical damage or self inflicted runaway . To conclude, the future is electric, but I find this haste towards a flawed battery technology undue.
@@iulian2548 LFP is already the dominating tech in China (and in countries where most of the EVs are Chinese, so most of the world except for G7, EU, and their closest allies). In fact, due to the sheer volume of EVs sold in China, we are already past the point where most new EVs globally come with LFP batteries. It's already a proven tech, the only reason it doesn't see more widespread use in countries that see China as a strategic rival is that nearly all of the expertise in building them, as well as most of the patents for the tech, are in the hands of Chinese entities. And while a fire in an NMC-equipped EV is much harder to contain, the chance of that fire happening in the first time is much lower. Data from US insurance companies puts the chance of an EV in the US (and, thus, with NMC batteries) catching fire at roughly 1/60th of the chance of an ICE car catching fire; yes, the average damage per incident is higher, but the chance of the incident happening in the first place is much lower.
@@FabioCapela I am skeptical regarding the EV fire incidence against petrol cars data, but the proximity property loss an health hazard are in a different league. This corroborated with the fossil predominant grid makes me think twice whether the politicians pursue for electrification is justified. I would focus on making people drive less, a paradigm shift regarding where we choose to live and work is called for. Meanwhile we can mitigate with smarter policy like car sharing, EVs, but the problem is much deeper than what current bloated EVs can alleviate.
Only Jochen know what he talking about..... put a tariff for Battery while your car industry imploded? yeah make your car more expensive to produce ..great solution... the best solution is to invest . And overcapacity? if Europe make more it called export but if China Overcapacity...
China banned foreign battery competitors since 2015 and they still have very limited access to 0rotect their local industry. ALL EV OEMs were forced to switch to local suppliers. THE EU needs to do the same to nurture their local industry.
That's just Serbians being Serbian once more. Whether it's the Balkan wars and the celebration of war criminals or the ongoing bullshit trying to undermine Kosovos sovereignity. It's a rotten country with a rotten people. What's shameful is that the EU is even entertaining Serbias membership.
Just read an article about a French battery company whose product is 50% waste. Half uf the batteries they produce are rejected because of poor quality.
@@tooltalkthere is a possibility that it might work for EVs. A new sodium-based high energy density solid state cell technology with energy density was published over the summer 2024 in the journal Nature. It’s coming. Look up “Design principles for enabling an anode-free sodium all-solid-state battery”
2:52 - you can just asume any and all projects having any involvement by Von Der Leyen as "failed by design". this persons whole career consists of "completely and utterly screwing up a topic she knows nothing about, and getting promoted away to a place where she hopefully can't do as much harm".
If, due to dependence, one insists on adopting measures such as tariff barriers, subsidy investigations, and various legislative restrictions to "eliminate dependence," it is purely an irrational act. Rational analysis suggests that there is no country or organization in the world that can be completely independent of others. Transnational normal cooperation is necessary and essential. However, the EU is now engaging in trade confrontation with China to cater to the political needs of the United States. Originally, Sino-European trade could have enabled Europe to free itself from the "bloodsucking" of the United States. However, now Europe has destroyed its own way out.
In my opinion the EU should cut its losses and specialize where it can have a global lead as to use said lead to make it impossible for other caountries to deny it the resources it needs. The EU should focus on biotech, bionics and regenerative medicine, if you have a monopoly on cures for diseases and disabilities the world will rely on you. The endpoint of regenerative medicine is a cure for aging, meaning all other countries will rely on you as that radically cuts their health and pension costs and solved their demographic problems from aging populations. These technologies also open the door to augmantation and that's where the real global monopoly in such a field would result in extreme economic gains as you make any and all capability or cosmetic modification/augmetnation desired possible. Other fields we should focus on is aerospace, homegrown defense (we need complete self-reliance), automation, AI and material sciecne As for energy, we NEED to go nuclear.
I think at some point we're going to need to address the environmental impacts of heavily relying on lithium, and the waste products that follow. Unrelated but even if you already look at products like "disposable" vapes you'll have people throwing away one-use devices that have completely usable batteries. There was a video someone made about how they turned a bunch of those batteries into a homemade portable charger.
The vast majority of lithium batteries is already being recycled, with the vast majority of their minerals being recovered. We need to stop propagating this misinformation that lithium batteries end up in landfills. th-cam.com/video/wc-ZW_xT-vI/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
@@badbad-cat EU doesnt own uranium and plutonium enough to relly on nuclear power plants. The russians block the french uranium main source in niger, so the french now relly in canada and australia, what its not a good thing. Just need a anti french government to be elected and the french get their nuclear powerplants without fuel. EU dont own neither fossil fuels neither nuclear fuels enough to be energy independent from the rest of the world. Neither EU citizens want to mine our lithium to all EU become a toxic switzerland cheese land. We need to follow the hydrogen path, to shield EU from the rest of the world. The hydrogen economy. Energy independence. All vehicles plus industrial use and domestic use like heating. And we already have the natural gaz pipelines to distribute instead hydrogen. Its a anti monopoly way, because to produce hydrogen, we only need sea water (fresh water are better) and electricity. Infinite source. No way to own and manipulate scarcity games. How much we use more cheap it becomes. Because energy and sea water are infinite. Scandinavia super potential for mega river damms, Iberia and Italy potential for solar energy, and all EU sea coasts inshore and offshore wind energy potential. We have everything to become 100% energy independent, using hydrogen as the center of economy and energy sources balance. Remember that riverdams are our best efficient energy battery storage way. They are the compensators between wind and solar energy production flutuations. And later even the sahara desrt can be used to use solar power and mediterrain sea water to export hydrogen into EU by the existing natural gaz pipelines.
This is what happens when you sit on your hands and "wait to see how the markets evolve" while everybody else is trying really hard to anticipate how the markets will evolve and acting accordingly.
Not really. Lithium is becoming a less essential part of battery making going forward thanks to sodium-ion technologies. China had the early lead in all battery tech and got the market share due to the Lithium-ion chemistry in particular, but the overall much better Sodium-ion chemistry is still there to be shared out and developed by all technology and manufacturing strong nations (that is most of western nations so we don't have to give it to China only). In short, because of the emerging (better) Sodium-ion chemistry, Lithium is less essential than it was thought a few years ago. And for those that might not know why Sodium-ion is "better", you can easily find info online.
provided Sodium ion will reach the energy density that currently is being achieved by LithiumNMCs. As its current density stand sodium ion will be dominant for more stationary applications and low end mobility
@@adityac3239Sodium batteries are used in Evs, personally I don't care about energy density, as long as I have enough range for my short journey, that's all that matters to me, I don't need an Ev with 300 miles range.
Were it me I'd initially go, as a low hanging fruit, for 25% from domestic supply, 25% from allied nations, 25% from anywhere, 25% non-lithium chemistries. Something like that. Maximizes maneuverability and minimizes risk. After that the situation becomes much more manageable. Much easier to plot a future, even better, course from.
Europe's so called groundbreaking batteries are still inside its laboratory. Assuming everything runs smoothly and bureaucracy(environmental permits, labour laws) doesnt exist. It would take at least a yearto build a big battery production plant. It would take another 2 years to setup the production line machines. It would take 2 years to streamline operations, to train employees, to handle, repair and maintain the complex machines. Europe is totally screwed! Oh and don't forget the minerals used for battery production doesn't exist in the continent and somehow needs to be imported. European made battery prices would be so astonomical, the moment the plant opens it goes into bankruptcy immediately. And why is DW still talking about lithium if you can make batteries out of 100% sodium. YES! The element that we use on table salt can be used as batteries. The chinese have already been production en masse these types of batteries that need minimal rare earths metals. And they are developing the sodium formula and make it more energy packed similar to lithium.
Agree. It's ridiculous to just shut up in the room and say that I want to produce independently. No one will do business at a loss. There are many professional companies in this industry, and they didn't sleep.
We lack the US' inflation reduction act and China's response as well. We lack leadership. The thing Europe has is its reputation for manufacturing excellence. I'd rather have a European made battery than a foreign made one. Some country has to elect a brave leader.
Can't be helped. Just like with the rare earth problem, we do not want to turn our mountains up side down and our backyards into a radioactive pits. It is also not wrong to buy a lot of affordable batteries and electric cars from China to solve our current urgent problem first.
Resume: Europe gave up its own refining and processing of ore in favor of cheap Chinese labor and now EU is in panic. Lithium is everywhere. The problem is to mine and refine raw material. The ore itself isn't a problem. It's everywhere.
The problem is need energy for this and EU do not have cheap energy. We europeans are so insanely dumb to vote these kind of politicians. This is so sad. Our future will go down very fast, thanks to ourselfs.
Euorpe gave up battery development, PV development and manufacturing, wind power development and manufacturing and is not ready to accept the harsh reality that battery produciton is a dirty business. The same goes for rare earth minerals. Coppe. Aluminium, Magnesium. And of course all future developments regarding electric storage.
'its everywhere' is the cry used for rare earth metal too, it doesn't matter if its everywhere only if it's easily accessible. There is fresh water in the ocean too, its everywhere. Just has some salt in it.
“The lithium deposit in Western Serbia is not worth mining in terms of environmental risks because it is the only one in the world where lithium extraction is planned in a populated and fertile agricultural area and, most importantly, it will certainly destroy the one of only three water-bearing areas in Serbia”, the scientists claimed.
Other countries don't have the manufacturing reputation for safety. Its a matter of trust. The European countries will respond. My bets on Poland as the starter. And lithium is only good for cars and phones.
Great video done by DW, According to the data I gathered and the brainstorming I did I guess by 2030 major players in lithium refining to final manufacturing will be: 1. China 2. US 3. India 4. EU 5. Either Brazil, Indonesia or Australia
@@tooltalk In Europe, only Germany is still revelant in tangible manufacturing and hi-tech industries, the others like Britain, France, Italy... are all de-industrialized to the degree they sell virtual financial services like stocks and insurance products as well as pharmaceuticals (Britain), tourism, perfumes, overvalued LV bags (France), pizza, pasta, macroni and tourism (Italy) ...... They are not relevant with the tangible hi-tech industries, especially the emerging hi-tech ones in the 21st century. Australia and New Zealand are just agricultural countries that sell sheep wools, mutton, beef, milk powder and earth minerals. Canada is...sorry, never heard of any hi-tech companies or even any products from Canada, it has a poor sense of presence when talking about technologies and stuffs. Japan is still somewhat a strong player but it is stagnant for too long and it's becoming not very competitive in more and more industries facing South Korea and China's tech rise. South Korea is increasingly competitive in hi-tech but in the emerging ones like AI, EV, automatic driving, brain-computer interface, quantum, 6G..., it is still largely irrelavant, the real black horse is China. China and the US are the true players in these emerging and disruptive technologies that will shape the future. So far, the US lacks industrial power in conventional hi-tech industries like shipbuidling, semiconductor manufacturing, trucks, cranes and heavy machines and others. China, on the other hand, it is becoming a full-MVP player in both conventional and disruptive high technologies.
In Hungary, they built quite a few battery plants. The issue is that making batteries is a very water intensive process and Hungary is already prone to drought. People protested but of course the lovely government pushed it through. We’ll see the environmental impact in a few years…
Nah, no need to invest in batteries, invest it in Ukraine lol BTW how come when you invest money into buyin' US weapons to arm Ukraine you're not federation of 27 countires, you only need Ursula's sign? Also, if you need to fix EU's problem, fix it in EU, dont go and make chaos into other countries, specially not in one that you've been playing off for 30 years with EU candidacy and ever changing rules to get accepted in EU! 👋
@ I definitely agree with you. No country thinking differently than bureaucrats in Brussels who are actually not thinking at all but doing will of those in Washington should be allowed in EU! In the end EU is designed to gather many nations into single one that would be satellite of America and do its bidding even if it’s harming those countries in union. It’s so not welcome that I can’t wait to see what will happen to it as more sovereign governments get elected! BTW you totally forgot Slovakia 😂
@@margeert3952 Oh i heard about one union where thinking any different than non-elected decision-maker made you unwelcome and target. 😉 But definitely agree, union that was meant to gather 27 nations into one collective to do bidding of the “ally” even at it’s own cost isn’t supposed to have anyone that thinks different than the ally. That’s why I can’t wait to see what is going to happen when more sovereign governments get elected in other countries inside EU! Btw you totally forgot Slovakia! 🤡 After all it is one of those newly elected governments
Not defending serbian government here, after all that is the government that is actually into leading Serbia to disappearing EU and more than willing to give up Serbian land so that EU secures battery industry lol So kinda have to agree with you, most Serbs are not in favor of joining EU and therefore definitely not ready for it. That’s why Union should look elsewhere for it’s strategies, like for Example Portugal? 😂
"War"? Seriously? Is that the mindset of EU - everything is about “winning a war“? You could have frame it as improving economic / industrial resilience. It's time to get over this win-lose / kill or be killed scarcity mindset. You can't be good at everything. Make sure you are at least somewhat self-sufficient or have resilient supply chains in the essentials. Cooperation is a concept that is sorely deficient or missing from the Anglo-European mindset.
Europe should just behave itself and become friends with China instead of going against it and all the worries about batteries will be over. Just import extremely cheap batteries from China.
That's why we not only have to reduce our GHG emissions but also reduce our resource footprint significantly over the coming decades. We are not only destroying our atmosphere, but our entire ecosphere.
I'm a realist, and not completely against the idea of new mines in Europe if it's done as cleanly as possible and the resource extraction benefits the people. Natural resources are not the property of corporations. The profits should belong to the people, and if there are private companies involved, then they are paid a fee for the work that they do, they are not the owners of the resource. Otherwise, why would anyone allow this on their land or anywhere near them? Another question, though: Is all of this for electric cars? Really? Are we sure about this technology?
Cool report, thx DW!👍As it was correctly pointed out in the vid, EU ignored importance of mining and refining lithium and consequently also producing its own batteries for way too long and basically lost the race to China and Asia by being too late. Now it should focus on all of these up/mid/down streams with highest importance primarily on the mid and secondly on the down stream as up stream mining is way too long and complicated process. Nevertheless it should focus on all with different timelines and expectations for each of them. Catching up with the rest of the world especially with China is almost impossible, however EU should definitely develop its own lithium battery ecosystem to minimize risk and complete reliance on the global production. EU has more than enough lithium to supply itself, however there's a long road to it which doesn't end there as EVs require new electric infrastructure and grid upgrade. This is a overall a HUGE interconnected project which requires time and development which EU doesn't have. China in comparison to EU bet BIG on lithium and batteries since early 2000s to free itself from energy dependance and now it's too late for EU to catch up. All EU can do is to develop its own battery infrastructure as fast as possible until it becomes self sustainable while China and USA will clearly lead the way.
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Yes, we do have substantial supplies here in the Czech Republic and it's shame that we're not getting full potential out of it. Classical NIMBY approach. I'm all for ecology and I know that mining and processing aren't the most ecological things in the world. But hey, we need to finally take the full renewable road and that's not possible without batteries. And that's not possible without lithium. I'm very worried about Europe because the ship has already sailed and Europe looks like it will wait for it in the harbour for another 20 years. No, it won't 😅
How dependent is your country when it comes to lithium?
My country is china. So not much.😂
In this reality of life:
Lithium production from Iran and Afghanistan! The EU and China have just stolen it...
Australia, not at all.
@@JSM-bb80u China imports most lithium from Australia and Chile.
Indonesian just made from 70% world nickel
China does not have an "overcapacity" of battery production. It is a net exporter of batteries, just as other countries are next exporters of other products. "Overcapacity" would be more than global demand. Also, China does not "just do it". Chinese have been working on battery technology for 3 decades, have leading technology and have highly automate production (a necessity for quality ad safety).
Not to mention it was the government's version and funding saved today's king of battery when it was almost collapsed a decade ago.
And now they build closed loop by recycling lithium and other metals.
EU slam tariff on Chinese EV because of anti subsidy and overcapacity which are excuses to hide their own failure of slow reaction on EV. Why BYD successful? Everyone knows BYD was founded as battery company and they established the car manufacturing segment they were in disadvantage of producing ICE cars back then. But now the globe is about environment friendly and green to move to EV. This exactly benefit to BYD who produce their own battery and integrate into the EV car and they save the cost of buying battery from 3rd party.
Has the EU already lost the lithium battery war? what a joke .Don't you know what level you are on? When did the EU become a competitor of China? A fictional competitor? China's real competitor is only LG SK from South Korea. The saddest thing for a person is to have no self-awareness.
Has the EU already lost the lithium battery war? what a joke .Don't you know what level you are on? When did the EU become a competitor of China? A fictional competitor? China's real competitor is only LG SK samsung,from South Korea and Panasonic TOYOTA from Japan. The top 10 ,5 from China.The saddest thing for a person is to have no self-awareness.Just like the US never considered Myanmar a competitor, even making this film, they didn't want to open eyes to reality but rather chose to deceive themselves.
EU also has an overcapacity of wine and cheese.
and idiot people
It's funny that Germans don't even realize how much state sponsored propaganda is done on their channels. Germany is deeply in trouble because of their lies.
I will fix this
and democracy propaganda
@@timiu EU overcapacity of gay and transgender 😂 so they trying to export it 😂
Pressuring Serbia to destroy its enviorment just to save EU buisiness is just down right evil.
Hey they have been doing that for decades, where have you been?
Yes that is evil. That is why serbia people they are fighting that
@@Ottovonostbahnhof i have been saying this wery thing when EU meddles in others internal affairs
@@Languslangus lol, where have you been all those years? This is the European modus operandi since the Age of Discovery. They never, ever, did anything but force poorer nations to suffer for their bennefit
@@Languslangus Just like every country.
Europe: Says NO mining, NO processing, NO factories, NO changes!
Also Europe: Why are the US and China growing but we're not?
too many regulations.
To protect the environment, Europe can sacrifice all industries.
I think this is right.
@@amandagrant4331 wait until people get poor and hungry.
Europe is not a country. That is a fundamental disadvantage.
@@blakoemail 宁愿饿死，也要保护环境，这是环保主义者
It’s not just quantity coming out of china it’s the quality of the battery products as well china is doing an amazing job on innovation in the battery industry . They aren’t going to slow down either
Yep. And, to compound the issues, batteries are one segment where improvements to both batteries and the manufacture tech makes not only for better products, but also for *cheaper* products; if you improve energy density by 25% without increasing costs, for example, this means you can drop your battery's physical size, weight, *and price* by a third without reducing its energy or cutting into your margins. Unless someone else can match China's R&D on Battery - a tall order, since China produces about two thirds of all high-quality research articles on battery tech in the world, and its largest battery makers are in a research consortium to improve the efficiency of their research - then China will maintain a commanding lead.
China is mostly about cheap, low-end LFP batteries. China's competitive advantage is their dominance in the global raw material/mineral supply-chain. They are still limited by the fact that Japan and South Korea most of lithium ion battery IP -- not to mention there is a looming IP patent war in the East which will soon spill over to the EU.
@@tooltalk China holds the majority of the *new* patents on lithium-ion batteries, though, as well as the lead on the *impactful* patents; this means as patents expire China is poised to become the uncontested leader in battery IP, even for older chemistries like lithium ion. It already is for newer chemistries; China has more people researching batteries than any other country, perhaps even more battery research people than the rest of the world added together (a natural reflection of the fact China takes in more than half the global revenue from battery sales).
China is also forcing local companies to cooperate and share some battery research, which improves the efficiency of said research. And research in China is naturally cheaper than in the US, EU, or Japan (I'm not sure where Korea stands on research costs).
Also, LFP was only truly low-end back before China got into the business of researching and improving it; now it has energy densities lower (though close) to that of NMC, but in exchange is more durable, safer, charges faster, emits less heat, and can provide more instant power. I frankly wouldn't even consider a car that didn't use LFP batteries, given the advantages of the chemistry; an NMC battery EV might have a slightly longer range, but an LFP one would be better in absolutely everything else.
@tooltalk lithium ion battery is an outdated technology by today's standards, because it has lesser energy density, it needs metal packaging and it burns very easy.
Yeah. China has patented LFP battery tech
There is no lithium battery war, EU didn't lose anything because EU never even qualified to compete.
Europe's problem is total ignorance of the subject matter:
- Lithium mineral is cheap, it's not about the mineral, its about the processing and the processing technology
- Its not about money, it's about knowing what to spend on, there is literally nobody in Europe, not in government, not in think tanks, not anywhere, who knows what to invest in.
- Europe wants quick solutions when nothing is quick, China didn't invest in batteries and EVs yesterday.
- China operates on meritocracy, Europe operates as a corruption aristocracy under a facade of democracy, until Europe solve their corruption problem, no competent leaders will ever come to power and no long term plans can ever be made.
chillout wumao
@@globanxiety🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
China operates on meritocracy? CCP support and loyalty is not important, but intelligence and capability are, right? What a joke.
@@globanxiety too bad your 1.6b funding is gone. hahaha
spitting facts
50% of lithium mined in Australia, 70-90% of lithium processed in China, 75% of battery manufacturing in Europe owned by Koreans, and thumbnail shows China... OK
edit: just finished watching it and China's barely even mentioned, very briefly a few times... come on
It’s clickbait to get Europeans hot and bothered
It's like Lord Voldemort, one does not just invoke their name, out of fear.
@@Ludak021 exactly, typical propafunda to make one side the baaaaad guy again.
The competition isn’t over lithium batteries. It’s over batteries. Lithium based is just the must popular type currently. Doesn’t mean it’s the only option.
Yes, there are also sodium-ion batteries 👉th-cam.com/video/-vobMl5ldOs/w-d-xo.html
Na-ion batteries stores less energy per kg, so they are not a good choice for EVs, but a good choice for stationary storage.
Variations of Li-ion batteries will continue to be best option for EVs.
@@Foersom_ for the foreseeable future. For the mainstream: yes. We’ll see what the future brings. Lithium is important but not the only horse in the race.
@@Foersom_ Yes they do store less energy than lithium ion. But already enough to power an EV. If we're looking for a solution that is environmentally friendly and politicly safe, and we want to keep using cars (although trains / bikes are so much better) - then we have to impose tempo 100km/h on highways like the Dutch did + stop thinking an EV has to accelerate to 100km/h in 3 or 2 seconds and produce 700HP. That's stupid. All we need is a clean individual transport solution from A to B. With as little environmental footprint as possible. 💁♂️
It is very much about battery raw materials.
EU can't even give Serbia a membership but already planning to use and milk it. 😂
Standard approach
Yeah that's the point of an economic bloc to assert dominance over other markets and have them begging for access
The reason they dont give membership is to neo colonise it
We will see
Serbia is lucky that they didn’t steal from them, YET!
Rio Tinto, get out from Serbia!
NO to lithium mining in Serbia!
as the video says its time. i will happen one day
@sxyrx7 Many things in history should have happened, but didn't...
Based
Oh dont worry, EU know what they were doing in the 90s to Serbia. They will do it again.
Imagine work and invest hard in the past 3 decades and succeeded in the leading position, some sore losers came to your face and saying they lost the "war", you be like "wut?" That's how China feels when they watch this hot air story
有一点点吧😅
@@ganzhishijie 中国：怎么你就输了，我和你打过吗
"working" would be a stretch since china is wildly known to steal tech from other foreign companies and countries
the same story is in Romania
the main problem is that you want to mine a country's natrual resources using a foreign company. Guess where most of the profits will go? Yeah... definetly not to the country...
The USA has the overcapacity of dollar printing
that, is real overcapacity!
Those freaking disposable vapes
Not just vapes, but lithium AA,AAA, use once then throw away.
@@dogbreath6974I have never seen them. It would make no sense as AA has 1.5, LiFePO4 has 3.2 volts.
@@AndreasDelleskeI was not referring to Evs, but AA,AAA batterys in general electronics, like torch/flashlight, kids toys etc.
@@dogbreath6974 I am surprise everything not rechargeable this day
@@dogbreath6974 Yeah. Non reusable lithium batteries should just be banned immediately. No questions asked.
Sadly the EU is the winner at losing. If we at least tried to follow draghi's plan, then we could maybe compete with the US and China. Sadly we keep the idea of irrational austerity, so we're doomed to keep failing.
He'd be a lot better than von der Leyen. But a German chancellor with a vision would be a start.
There is no irrational austerity, there is only poverty and poor people who has delusions of wealth.
@@vlhc4642 if you undertood that by irrational austerity I was referring to a person, then you already got the comment wrong.
Yes, there is irrational austerity and despite all my critics of the US, this is something they know damn well will hurt their economy, so they never do. Look at Germany(and other EU countries) during 2008 and the US. Compare our answers to the crisis and you can see the result, it's staggerig.
@@TheBielrangel There is no separate European response, the response was coordinated, US and EU can't both print trillions and not have massive inflation, Europe had to adopt austerity for US printing to work.
Both US and EU run massive trade deficits and produces less and less things of value, its the collective west that's broke with have delusions of wealth.
Screaming about an austerity while the average budget deficit across the block tops 3% of GDP is actually insane. Get help.
China and USA did the investments and now EU is punishing China with tariffs for BEV's which have the batteries in them. China decided to stop investing in factories for Europe as soon as the tariffs where activated. Europe is killing itself form within and if it were to provide the funding there is no way to make a claim that the funding form the Chinese or US governments are not allowed while the one form Eu would be ok.
You will not mine lithium in Serbia, you are not even aware of how stubborn the Serbian people are. All the money you gave the Serbian government to lobby for Rio Tinto is for nothing.
The vast majority is against it.
Serbia likes Russia… wait until Putin is your president… there will not be protests.
Misprint at 8:38, narrator says battery factory in Europe is 50 times more expensive - text says 50 percent. Other than that, its a realistic view of Europe's prosperity and how we keep it for ourselves.
A pretty concerning typo, to be honest. We could spot it because they provided the source on screen, but what kinds of evidence did they get wrong that they didn't show?
@@onceuponatimeandspace Sadly, that's the kind of thoroughness and quality of "journalism" one has to expect in this day and age.
Wow, thanks for pointing it out. I wasn't looking at the screen at that moment and wondered how that could be possible. It's insane someone says that out loud without noticing there's probably a mistake.
@@antred11 You suck man
Maybe that missing 4950% were the friends we made along the way?
Europe should be focused on recycling lithium, not on mining lithium.
good idea, but that would increase the price of recycling which has its downsides too if places like china will be able to recycle cheaper
The problem is that there's not much to recycle. EV batteries are lasting longer than predicted.
@@KevinLyda By the time efforts to upscale recycling start showing, there'll be enough stocks of material I'd wager
As I am into this business of lithium & EV, I would like to inform you that recycled lithium doesn't have enough energy left which increases the electricity consumption to fully charge a battery, slower down the battery capacity & battery discharges faster
or developing alternatives. Sodium etc. Lithium might well be German of early semiconductors industry. Before anyone had time to worry who has German and who don't it was replaced with silicone chips 💁♂️
The EU in the past used to(still do, just not to Russia) depend on energy (fuel and gas) on foreign countries and now it's the same for batteries.
.
In the past century it feels like the EU has been systematically de-industrialized and made more and more dependent on foreign countries for critical resources.
It's copying the crappy US model on focusing more on services rather than industry. No wonder Norway doesn't want to join the EU as they want a robust industry and resource extraction, and the EU would just suck them dry once they got in.
That's how developed nations tend to be. Deindustrialize, offload your industries onto poorer nations with cheaper labor, and then complain about them doing most of the polluting
Private companies moved away their production becouse they didn't want to deal with labour unions and to have super profits.
I agree with the speaker in the video: we have exported our polluting industries to other countries, we profit from cheap, unsafe labor elsewhere and then the conclusion is of course that we are too expensive! We must include environmental and social cost for products entering our market.
In Europe, only Germany is still revelant in tangible manufacturing and hi-tech industries, the others like Britain, France, Italy... are all de-industrialized to the degree they sell virtual financial services like stocks and insurance products as well as pharmaceuticals (Britain), tourism, perfumes, overvalued LV bags (France), pizza, pasta, macroni and tourism (Italy) ...... They are not relevant with the tangible hi-tech industries, especially the emerging hi-tech ones in the 21st century. Australia and New Zealand are just agricultural countries that sell sheep wools, mutton, beef, milk powder and earth minerals. Canada is...sorry, never heard of any hi-tech companies or even any products from Canada, it has a poor sense of presence when talking about technologies and stuffs. Japan is still somewhat a strong player but it is stagnant for too long and it's becoming not very competitive in more and more industries facing South Korea and China's tech rise. South Korea is increasingly competitive in hi-tech but in the emerging ones like AI, EV, automatic driving, brain-computer interface, quantum, 6G..., it is still largely irrelavant, the real black horse is China. China and the US are the true players in these emerging and disruptive technologies that will shape the future. So far, the US lacks industrial power in conventional hi-tech industries like shipbuidling, steel-making, semiconductor manufacturing, trucks, cranes and heavy machines manufacturing and others. China, on the other hand, is becoming a full-MVP player in both conventional and disruptive high technologies.
I’d say this to Serbia’s Bojana Novakovic (timestamp 5:12): Australia’s national economy is largely dependent on being one very large export mining pit. Its mining companies (Rio Tinto et al) pay only lip-service to indigenous Aboriginal culture, agricultural and horticultural land rights, social and environmental concerns, etc. But they basically bankroll governments of all political persuasions at both state and federal levels. So they reign supreme.
Your nation is as big as Europe. If they mine somewhere with no people in close proximity, it's not a problem at all. Serbia is small and they mine near villages where people live. Mining this material is extremely toxic and it ruins underground water, air, wildlife, etc. Why doesn't Germany mine its own lithium?
@@saellenx3528 EU has megadamms potential, onshore and offshore wind potential, and solar potential, enough, to become 100% green hydrogen economy all year. Totaly independent from the rest of the world. And the existing natural gaz pipelines, the majority can be converted to distribute the hydrogen between all the EU members.
Hydrogen can be used for all types of vehicles, including aviation, and for heating as well. It has domestic and industrial use. Hydrogen economy. 100% independent from the rest of the world. Only need energy and sea water (fresh water even better).
Corrupt government ,EU and RIo TInto want mine here
What a tremendous amount of twaddle. You’re delusional.
@@ricardoxavier827 We're at an era of disassembling dams since they destroy or change ecosystems dramatically.
Any fancy tech like Hydrogen has issues of its own, like cost, scalability, safety, etc. Otherwise, there are so many theoretically amazing possibilities.
The EU should already be making sodium batteries. But the sleepyheads in the EU also slept through this new development.
They are ok, but still inferior to lithium. Who will buy expensive european EVs with worse batteries than the cheaper and better chinese EVs?
China leads there as well..
Guess who is the leader in Sodium batteries? 🤣🤣
CATL
China's advantage comes from battery technology including processing technology. It doesn't matter if its sodium or lithium, China's lead is invariant of the base mineral.
If anything sodium is even worse because at least lithium used to be expensive and China has the pay the same as everyone else. With sodium competitiveness is entirely reliant on tech, which maximizes China's advantage.
Sounds like Serbia isn’t opposed to lithium mining, they’re opposed to the VERY REAL negative impacts from the current plans with mining. The company who wants to mine so badly should invest more money to make sure the mine doesn’t impact local residents. If they deem this impossible (too expensive in their opinion), then I guess they don’t really need to mine that badly after all.
I don't think that is possible. We simply don't trust our government enough with something this important.
EU membership will do the trick, but ofc it won't happen.
I shouldn't be a foreign company that only care about profit in the first place.
It can take decades for new battery electrochemistry to become commercial. In the early 1980s, the white coat people first developed lithium materials, Spinels NMC, that sort of thing. A decade later, Sony did some great stuff after the patent transfer, commercializing them in the 1990s. Fast forward to today, we are still improving them through engineering.
Is it me or there was no correlation between current lithium extraction sites (north Europe, Poland, Romania, Greece) and the actual lithium “favorability index map”? 😅
If anything, the largest spot is right in the middle of France, which was not addressed here.😅
What’s going on?
If Rio Tinto is normal company and care about nature and people and have some standards maybe mining would be possible, but they are huge greedy company that destroy everything in process. Everyone knows that so everyone is against them and their mining in Serbia.
Keep them out of Serbia.
Rio Tinto only cares about their profits.
I think the EU is too emotionally sensitive. All countries are parts of the globalization, for example, China provides the best lithium batteries, the EU provide the best electrical motors. I think cooperation is still the theme of the future.
European potatoes are just awesome. Also Europe can do great milk and buy the cars and machinery from China. When you don't innovate for decades that's what happens.
The perspective is the most important. We have to focus on how we can make it, not on why we can’t make it.
I think that in the future recycling old batteries will be a significant factor.
Not likely its too expensive, Chinese cars are alredy much cheaper and with recycled batteries they will be even more cheaper. Would you buys German 50 000 dollars car if same size and quality Chinese car is 15 000?
For cellphones and laptops, yes. For cars and trucks and planes, no. Its better the hydrogen way.
More energy dense and light, and infinite source, so no nation of the world can monopoly hydrogen, because to produce hydrogen we only need sea water and electricity.
Anything that can be controlled, can be manipulated to stay scarce. Scarcity value are the game of the economic monopolies, and hydrogen blocks that psycopaths world monopoly plans..
recycling won't be a big factor until 10-15 years down the road.
@@tooltalk recycling is a big scam
@@kika191grg : battery recycling is fairly common, even for non-lithium batteries.
Lithium is not the only solution for storage batteries. In fact Sodium has so much better properties for the application. Sodium is widely available in Europe and very helpful in using excess power from wind and solar.
There's a new desalination method that can produce water cheaper than traditional tap water with much less energy. MIT research funded by China.
That's the reason why CN is heavily investing in sodium battery technology, perhaps more than anyone else. They will not give up their massive lead easily.
But that would make China angry and as a result it will flood Europe with fentanyl.
The best energy bateries are actualy riverdamms.
Exactly, there are so many alternatives like sand, water, salt etc.
Lithium is just very well suited for EV's at the moment, hence the hype.
Seems very silly to use lithium for stationary batteries just like it's silly to make massive powerful cars.
So what about these alternatives?
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Europe should continue what it does best, serving and catering to tourists
Europe wants its continental local environmental preservation cake and eat cheap batteries too, lmao. Get used to material dependence, prepare to pay out for local manufacture, or accept destruction of local landscape. There is no clean heavy industry, wake up from your armchairs.
"Europe" is not a hivemind, it's some 450 million people spread over a double dozen countries. And yes, it wants to preserve its environment while not depending on imports for all its materials and manufacturing. Combining the two is hard, but I find it misleading to pretend that this is an either/or situation.
In fact, the most environmentally friendly way is to de-industrialize.
Politicians always pretend not to know.
Yeah, desalination can generate freshwater and sodium for batteries that need abundant non toxic components. With proper planning, people can have their cake and eat it. New desalination methods can produce water cheaper than traditional tap water. It's funded by China and created by MIT. Europe lost a lot of innovation to the US inflation reduction act. And we will need rewilded areas that can contain excessive water so that they don't burn in dry periods or flood in storms.
Yes, and I would also add the energy costs problem touched on in the video. Heavy industry needs consistent and cheap energy, which is either achieved by local fossil fuels (natural gas in MENA countries, USA, Russia and Argentina, coal in China) or some combination of hydro, nuclear and small/rare population (Scandinavian countries and Paraguay). None of that is feasible for any EU country south of Sweden because renewables are variable as of now, not a base load
@@Highollow ""Europe" is not a hivemind" Yes and that means it will be the end of industrialization and prospertity in Europe. If we do not start to "hive mind" then the Africans will take over from us. Or the middle east.
Labour costs are high in western Europe, but cheap in eastern Europe so that is not an argument of you see the EU for real as one and not fragmented protectionism
Chinese overcapacity claims are a red herring, none of the telltale signs of overcapacity are present in their battery industry (other than the fall in prices, which has other reasons).
Battery prices have been falling consistently *and* quickly for over three decades as the tech improves - meaning this has been happening since *before* China started manufacturing most of the world's batteries - and they are expected to keep falling for the foreseeable future. One kWh of battery storage cost $7500 back in 1991, now it can be had in China for less than $50. Anyone who invests money on battery manufacturing expecting prices to somehow "recover" as the "overcapacity" solves itself is in for a harsh reality check and steep loses.
Also, putting tariffs on batteries is a stupid move. Making batteries more expensive means all your downstream products that use batteries become less competitive; this would require also slapping tariffs on every imported good that uses batteries to prevent the local industry from collapsing (and dragging the battery industry that was supposed to be protected with it), and would still result in losing most of the export market for everything that uses batteries as outside your home market you would need to compete with products made with the cheaper batteries without the protection of tariffs.
European industry is cooked.
I can answer that… Yes! What our politicians and companies have been doing is beyond me.
They were busy creating tensions with china
10:53 The China Gov not "just does it", they consult or convince the locals if it is about mining. There are many cases that the local reject building of sewage plant or nuclear plant. So, don't under-estimate others effort and over exaggerate your own difficulties. Also, the so-called "over-capacity" of battery in China is a joke. Car manufacturers purchase from China battery companies, because of the high qualify and lower price, EU is welcome to make your own battery, noboby bans you from that.
It is a natural to rely on other countries, provided that there is no intention of engaging in warfare. There are, in fact, 100 other ways in which the EU are interdependent.
The focus should be on the development of industry. The EU is currently preoccupied with catching up with other countries after the fact, which is an indication that it is stuck in its ways.
China is mercantilist.
Europe is a fantastic place to vacation and Tech R&D, but not for heavy industries anymore. Electricity cost is high, renewables potential is limited, the workforce is rapdly getting old. There is no surprise, manufacturing anything is more competitive in US, China/Southeast Asia and probably South America.
By the time they catch up with Lithium China would've standardized sodium ion batteries in every car around the globe.
What use is Lithium if Sodium ion is better in every way, you know cheaper, safer, more energy efficient, maybe they should focus on that instead to get ahead of the curve.
sodium cannot be better than lithium bateries in terms of performance due to physical limitations and simply higher weight of sodium (weight per electron transferred). It is too heavy for longer range vehicles. For simple uses in commuter minicars or stationary storage more than OK, for higher end EV´s - not so much.
The neat thing about the atmosphere, is that it doesn't give a shit which country makes the batteries which lower emissions.
It would be cheaper and quicker for the EU to accept Chinese batteries without tariffs or obstacles. The sooner and cheaper way to a carbon free future is so much more important than what future climate change will bring.
Middle children catching strays in this video😭
Not stray or indirect at all. But hey, aren't we used to these unnecessary humilliations?
@@KarlosEPM Tbh the stereotype is just not true
This is such a waste of time, if the west wants to compete they should be focused not on lithium but instead on micro and nano nuclear. The problem is the profit margins and motives for batteries and the overall reliance rather than a modular nano nuclear solution that would be multilayer compatible and globally standardised.
Lots of companies have already been incredibly successful at scaling some of the way down like Rolls Royce for instance but we can go even smaller with the advances that will be possible in very short time frames.
they trying to extort indonesia last year, and they sue us on WTO from refusing to give our resources/mining export
export control is a big no no.
I live in Australia and the Pilbara region is rich in lithium but my understanding is a large percentage goes to Chinese battery manufacturers
So, you Europeans have fallen into a strange loop. In order to protect the environment, you can't mine, and since mining is expensive, you can't afford to invest in factories. Without factories, there is no production capacity, and without production capacity, electric cars are expensive. Expensive electric cars mean fewer people buy them, and fewer electric cars mean batteries aren't used, creating a deadlock. Now that there are cheap batteries from China, it seems that instead of promoting electric vehicles for environmental reasons, it's China and the United States that are pushing them forward. What's Europe doing? Especially France and Italy, who always think they're the most environmentally friendly, but when it comes to promoting electric vehicles, they suddenly talk about protecting their own automotive industry. As a result, they end up taxing Chinese electric vehicles, making them even more expensive, even fewer people buy them, and what was already a small lithium battery industry becomes even more萎缩. In the end, they suffer the consequences themselves. The EU always portrays China as a dragon from an American perspective, but in fact, they are fighting against the dragon they imagine, while the United States is actually bleeding them dry behind the scenes.
Calling someone who doesn't want a giant open mine and waste chemicals in their water a "NIMBY" is crazy work.
Another falsehood: what the USA does the EU cannot do because we are not a country but a federation of countries.
Wrong: the USA is a federation. The EU a very evolved partnership of countries. Regrettably without own taxing and lending possibilities. So the money has to come mainly from the states and raising that amount is politically problematic and countries keep thinking at the national scale for investment which is penny wise pound foolish.
We are a bunch of 27 countries, this means one or more of the 27 with lithium deposits needs to be the sacrificial lamb for the eu.
Same reason we can’t compete in tech because if we focus on creating a eu tech hub in Estonia For example,other countries need to give up their own country tech hub.
In Portugal we already had scandal linked to lithium mine and environmental reports.
We can become a refinery just like we did with oil, create a recycling lithium economy.
Lithium is not the best solution for grid scale battery storage. The advantage that Europe has over North America is it smaller geographical size enabling cheap and efficient mass transit. Increase investments in mass transit and increase taxes on individual motor vehicles, ICE or electric, would likely reduce the demand for individual motor vehicles and further increase adoption of mass transit.
Also, sometimes it is good to set unrealistic goals since it can spur quicker development of more reasonable timelines.
Money makes the world go round. Follow the money and it makes sense. This whole climate change thing is about money. Europeans have nothing to offer businesses, they are not interested in mass transit, it is all about the mines and the ability to sell lithium cars and batteries GLOBALLY based on the shift in energy sources, unfortunately the Chinese got the jump on the U.S. and Europe. Hence the Tariff by both. Mass transit of for those who believe in climate change not money men.
actions meeting engagements is a tough business ! some day europe may have to recalculate
>"8:28: China's projected 2030 capacity is about 4 TWh, which means the reace might already be over."
What race? The EU only wants a _strategic_ reserve/production of Lithium and batteries. This is not a race to the moon, is it?
I don't like the tone of this video, it's all over the place, discusses every challenge in a negative tone and all without discussing the trade-offs of each decision that needs to be made.
They can spend untold billions on agriculture subsidies and other nonsense but none on lithium? Just get do it and be done with it.
@@johnjingleheimersmith9259it's not just lithium. There's a whole infrastructure and planning deficit that needs a coordinated plan, not piecemeal patchwork. Desalination x sodium batteries. Solid state batteries. Manufacturing - we lost a lot of start-ups to the US a couple of years ago. Infrastructure, emergency response resources. Education for the future, retraining. If we did what China is doing in batteries and manufacturing, we'd do it better. We need bravery that we do not have in our current crop of leaders or wannabe leaders.
thanks for insights on Europe 2:34
When EU has scaled up its lithium production, we will use something better.
Yeah solid state
@patrickday4206
Or something else
@@KlanHoffman why not take it from China ?
@@patrickday4206 Lithium is sold
@@RustedCroaker lithium is semi solid state
The eu is the nice guy, he's not even competing
Sodium-Ion batteries ... anyone.... Why should the EU even try catch up with the Li-Ion technology ? By the time the EU will be able to make all this happen Sodium-Ion batteries will be mainstream and, we're back to square one...
China heavily invest in sodium batteries CATL is the biggest supplier of this type of battery in the world.They just opened the biggest energy storage that uses sodium batteries in Qianjiang. Do you think the rest of the world sleeps on new technologies? EU is far behind even in this technology. Plus they are not going to be used in a electric car production for a decades to come because of low energy density. Eu needs to get it together and invest in future technologies or we are not going to live as comfortably as we are used to.
LG chem does have a very terrible reputation for battery safety. It compound in to Europeans issues with EVs.
I am European and my goals not including to pay more money for nothing.
The famous double negative. Education is the greatest thing anyone can invest in for the greatest return. I'm sure Bulgaria's inclusion in the EU was not for nothing and helped it benefit from investment.
@@unatwomey7112 It is what it is, but how i can get more money by investing in something which is not obtainable in EU. I can just buy it from China. Eu must find a way to produce another expensive products which can sell it to China.
@@danielgospodinov5786
Uraula can't find it.
She will only spend European people's money to subsidize expensive European products and pretend to produce independently.
@@unatwomey7112 Producing batteries is better to be outside of Europe, because it my cause a pollution. Also we have enough petrol.
I do not think that labour is expensive in Europe. Workers are just paid a fair wage, unlike in many other regions.
Europe can import low-cost labor from Africa.
The EU is one of the wealthiest regions in the world. Its unreasonable to expect middle income countries to have salaries that are as high. They wouldn't be middle income if they did
Battery race is lost. We’re late. Much better to focus on recycling and be the first!
Mass battery recycling not going to happen until 10-15 years down the road.
9:50 an improved ability to react to global economic situations is an interesting argument I have not heard from the "make the EU a country" crowd yet
Misreading information leads to all kinds of disruption. Right-wing fear frenzies have been a toxic mess. See the UK's unending austerity, which stems from right-wing inspired fear and incompetence. Disrupting trade, travel, hungry children, record nhs waiting lists. Not improved but worse. Not the ability to react but fear and isolation. Not global but declining. Very like Moscow.
@@unatwomey7112 wait 'til you hear about the left wing frenzies between 2000 and 2017 that was a specular global failure.
Current lithium batteries are in no way environmently friendly, safe or cost effective. We need to develop new battery chemistry to make EVs worthwhile. The thermal run away issue only deters me from considering an EV. And the total environmental footprint of a new EV convinced me that driving fewer km on my current regular car is a more sensible choice. City driving at rush hour should be seriously taxed even for EVs.
That's where something like the US inflation reduction act would help. The game is not over because the makers of safe reliable batteries will win out but European countries have no leaders who will lead.
Thermal runaway is mainly an issue with NMC and similar chemistries, it's not much of an issue for LFP chemistries. An NMC battery pierced by a nail (worst case scenario for a battery) is likely to explode, a modern LFP battery mostly just smolders for a bit. And even NMC chemistries are on the average safer than a car with a fuel tank (which includes hybrids); the chance of a car with a fuel tank catching fire by itself is dozens of times more than that of an EV with an NMC battery catching fire.
Bottom line, if you want safety, you are much better with a car equipped with an LFP battery than with an ICE car.
The thing about LFP, though, is that modern LFP batteries are very much a Chinese tech; China took a tech from the 90s that western companies didn't want to use, made a deal allowing local companies to freely use and improve the tech as long as they refrained from exporting it until the early 2020s, and improved it to the point it's better in almost everything than the NMC chemistries western companies still favor.
@FabioCapela I am an insurance professional so quite aware of the risks. LFP is too recent technology and has to prove itself. NMC are predominant and IMO very risky in case of physical damage or self inflicted runaway .
To conclude, the future is electric, but I find this haste towards a flawed battery technology undue.
@@iulian2548 LFP is already the dominating tech in China (and in countries where most of the EVs are Chinese, so most of the world except for G7, EU, and their closest allies). In fact, due to the sheer volume of EVs sold in China, we are already past the point where most new EVs globally come with LFP batteries. It's already a proven tech, the only reason it doesn't see more widespread use in countries that see China as a strategic rival is that nearly all of the expertise in building them, as well as most of the patents for the tech, are in the hands of Chinese entities.
And while a fire in an NMC-equipped EV is much harder to contain, the chance of that fire happening in the first time is much lower. Data from US insurance companies puts the chance of an EV in the US (and, thus, with NMC batteries) catching fire at roughly 1/60th of the chance of an ICE car catching fire; yes, the average damage per incident is higher, but the chance of the incident happening in the first place is much lower.
@@FabioCapela I am skeptical regarding the EV fire incidence against petrol cars data, but the proximity property loss an health hazard are in a different league. This corroborated with the fossil predominant grid makes me think twice whether the politicians pursue for electrification is justified. I would focus on making people drive less, a paradigm shift regarding where we choose to live and work is called for. Meanwhile we can mitigate with smarter policy like car sharing, EVs, but the problem is much deeper than what current bloated EVs can alleviate.
Only Jochen know what he talking about..... put a tariff for Battery while your car industry imploded? yeah make your car more expensive to produce ..great solution... the best solution is to invest .
And overcapacity? if Europe make more it called export but if China Overcapacity...
China banned foreign battery competitors since 2015 and they still have very limited access to 0rotect their local industry. ALL EV OEMs were forced to switch to local suppliers. THE EU needs to do the same to nurture their local industry.
But instead of stealing ip and banning foreign competitors, JV with the Japanese and Koreans.
Thanks DW for mentioning the situation in Serbia and shameful acts of EU that ignores the will of Serbian people.
That's just Serbians being Serbian once more. Whether it's the Balkan wars and the celebration of war criminals or the ongoing bullshit trying to undermine Kosovos sovereignity. It's a rotten country with a rotten people. What's shameful is that the EU is even entertaining Serbias membership.
Serbia is not part of the EU. It is the Serbian government doing a u-turn to give Rio-Tinto (a British-Australian company) a mining licence.
Wait until you’re part of Russia…
Not the Gov. DW misrepressented that part, it was the courts that overturned the gov decision.
What you said makes no sense.
Just read an article about a French battery company whose product is 50% waste. Half uf the batteries they produce are rejected because of poor quality.
Let's hear it for sodium folks.
Not for evs
@@tooltalkthere is a possibility that it might work for EVs. A new sodium-based high energy density solid state cell technology with energy density was published over the summer 2024 in the journal Nature. It’s coming.
Look up “Design principles for enabling an anode-free sodium all-solid-state battery”
Guess who is the leader in sodium batteries?
@@BSPBuilder 😂👏🏻 starts with a big C as well people 🙈
@@Nikoo033 🤣🤣
"And France's very creatively named "lithium de France" " 😂😂
2:52 - you can just asume any and all projects having any involvement by Von Der Leyen as "failed by design". this persons whole career consists of "completely and utterly screwing up a topic she knows nothing about, and getting promoted away to a place where she hopefully can't do as much harm".
Ursula works for Biden not EU people
Merkel got rid of her after a scandal and it's Merkels lasting legacy. She fails upwards.
If, due to dependence, one insists on adopting measures such as tariff barriers, subsidy investigations, and various legislative restrictions to "eliminate dependence," it is purely an irrational act. Rational analysis suggests that there is no country or organization in the world that can be completely independent of others. Transnational normal cooperation is necessary and essential. However, the EU is now engaging in trade confrontation with China to cater to the political needs of the United States. Originally, Sino-European trade could have enabled Europe to free itself from the "bloodsucking" of the United States. However, now Europe has destroyed its own way out.
8:34 Nonsense speaker. 47% more NOT 50 times more.
In my opinion the EU should cut its losses and specialize where it can have a global lead as to use said lead to make it impossible for other caountries to deny it the resources it needs.
The EU should focus on biotech, bionics and regenerative medicine, if you have a monopoly on cures for diseases and disabilities the world will rely on you. The endpoint of regenerative medicine is a cure for aging, meaning all other countries will rely on you as that radically cuts their health and pension costs and solved their demographic problems from aging populations.
These technologies also open the door to augmantation and that's where the real global monopoly in such a field would result in extreme economic gains as you make any and all capability or cosmetic modification/augmetnation desired possible.
Other fields we should focus on is aerospace, homegrown defense (we need complete self-reliance), automation, AI and material sciecne
As for energy, we NEED to go nuclear.
I think at some point we're going to need to address the environmental impacts of heavily relying on lithium, and the waste products that follow.
Unrelated but even if you already look at products like "disposable" vapes you'll have people throwing away one-use devices that have completely usable batteries. There was a video someone made about how they turned a bunch of those batteries into a homemade portable charger.
At least lithium is a normal metal unlike plastic or radioactive wastes
The vast majority of lithium batteries is already being recycled, with the vast majority of their minerals being recovered. We need to stop propagating this misinformation that lithium batteries end up in landfills.
th-cam.com/video/wc-ZW_xT-vI/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
@@badbad-cat EU doesnt own uranium and plutonium enough to relly on nuclear power plants. The russians block the french uranium main source in niger, so the french now relly in canada and australia, what its not a good thing. Just need a anti french government to be elected and the french get their nuclear powerplants without fuel.
EU dont own neither fossil fuels neither nuclear fuels enough to be energy independent from the rest of the world.
Neither EU citizens want to mine our lithium to all EU become a toxic switzerland cheese land.
We need to follow the hydrogen path, to shield EU from the rest of the world. The hydrogen economy. Energy independence. All vehicles plus industrial use and domestic use like heating. And we already have the natural gaz pipelines to distribute instead hydrogen.
Its a anti monopoly way, because to produce hydrogen, we only need sea water (fresh water are better) and electricity. Infinite source. No way to own and manipulate scarcity games. How much we use more cheap it becomes. Because energy and sea water are infinite.
Scandinavia super potential for mega river damms, Iberia and Italy potential for solar energy, and all EU sea coasts inshore and offshore wind energy potential. We have everything to become 100% energy independent, using hydrogen as the center of economy and energy sources balance.
Remember that riverdams are our best efficient energy battery storage way. They are the compensators between wind and solar energy production flutuations.
And later even the sahara desrt can be used to use solar power and mediterrain sea water to export hydrogen into EU by the existing natural gaz pipelines.
@@badbad-cat Plastic and radioactive waste doesn't spontaneously combust into flames when its punctured
@@smallbutdeadly931 check videos of BYD blade battery puncture tests
This is what happens when you sit on your hands and "wait to see how the markets evolve" while everybody else is trying really hard to anticipate how the markets will evolve and acting accordingly.
Not really. Lithium is becoming a less essential part of battery making going forward thanks to sodium-ion technologies. China had the early lead in all battery tech and got the market share due to the Lithium-ion chemistry in particular, but the overall much better Sodium-ion chemistry is still there to be shared out and developed by all technology and manufacturing strong nations (that is most of western nations so we don't have to give it to China only). In short, because of the emerging (better) Sodium-ion chemistry, Lithium is less essential than it was thought a few years ago. And for those that might not know why Sodium-ion is "better", you can easily find info online.
provided Sodium ion will reach the energy density that currently is being achieved by LithiumNMCs. As its current density stand sodium ion will be dominant for more stationary applications and low end mobility
China never had lead on battery tech; Japan and Korea did. China was very late to the battery market. China had the lead in refining.
@@tooltalk actually they're leading, also japan😃lol that's totally nonsense
@@adamsaciid4919 china leads in low-end cheap battery tech aka lfp
@@adityac3239Sodium batteries are used in Evs, personally I don't care about energy density, as long as I have enough range for my short journey, that's all that matters to me, I don't need an Ev with 300 miles range.
Were it me I'd initially go, as a low hanging fruit, for 25% from domestic supply, 25% from allied nations, 25% from anywhere, 25% non-lithium chemistries. Something like that. Maximizes maneuverability and minimizes risk. After that the situation becomes much more manageable. Much easier to plot a future, even better, course from.
Need to focus on non-lithium solid state battery.
China, US, and korea already at early developmental stage of it
"Has the EU already lost-"
Yes, the answer is probably yes.
Europe's so called groundbreaking batteries are still inside its laboratory. Assuming everything runs smoothly and bureaucracy(environmental permits, labour laws) doesnt exist. It would take at least a yearto build a big battery production plant. It would take another 2 years to setup the production line machines. It would take 2 years to streamline operations, to train employees, to handle, repair and maintain the complex machines. Europe is totally screwed! Oh and don't forget the minerals used for battery production doesn't exist in the continent and somehow needs to be imported. European made battery prices would be so astonomical, the moment the plant opens it goes into bankruptcy immediately. And why is DW still talking about lithium if you can make batteries out of 100% sodium. YES! The element that we use on table salt can be used as batteries. The chinese have already been production en masse these types of batteries that need minimal rare earths metals. And they are developing the sodium formula and make it more energy packed similar to lithium.
Agree.
It's ridiculous to just shut up in the room and say that I want to produce independently.
No one will do business at a loss. There are many professional companies in this industry, and they didn't sleep.
We lack the US' inflation reduction act and China's response as well. We lack leadership. The thing Europe has is its reputation for manufacturing excellence. I'd rather have a European made battery than a foreign made one. Some country has to elect a brave leader.
Can't be helped. Just like with the rare earth problem, we do not want to turn our mountains up side down and our backyards into a radioactive pits.
It is also not wrong to buy a lot of affordable batteries and electric cars from China to solve our current urgent problem first.
Resume: Europe gave up its own refining and processing of ore in favor of cheap Chinese labor and now EU is in panic. Lithium is everywhere. The problem is to mine and refine raw material. The ore itself isn't a problem. It's everywhere.
The problem is need energy for this and EU do not have cheap energy. We europeans are so insanely dumb to vote these kind of politicians. This is so sad. Our future will go down very fast, thanks to ourselfs.
Germany even has one of the biggest lithium sources, but knowing germany it will takes centuries to use it
Euorpe gave up battery development, PV development and manufacturing, wind power development and manufacturing and is not ready to accept the harsh reality that battery produciton is a dirty business. The same goes for rare earth minerals. Coppe. Aluminium, Magnesium. And of course all future developments regarding electric storage.
Uraula is good at talking, but not at doing.
'its everywhere' is the cry used for rare earth metal too, it doesn't matter if its everywhere only if it's easily accessible. There is fresh water in the ocean too, its everywhere. Just has some salt in it.
“The lithium deposit in Western Serbia is not worth mining in terms of environmental risks because it is the only one in the world where lithium extraction is planned in a populated and fertile agricultural area and, most importantly, it will certainly destroy the one of only three water-bearing areas in Serbia”, the scientists claimed.
Sorry EU, you are too late in the Lithium War.
But you could power your EV with Hopium.
Or copium😂
Other countries don't have the manufacturing reputation for safety. Its a matter of trust. The European countries will respond. My bets on Poland as the starter. And lithium is only good for cars and phones.
Great video done by DW, According to the data I gathered and the brainstorming I did I guess by 2030 major players in lithium refining to final manufacturing will be:
1. China
2. US
3. India
4. EU
5. Either Brazil, Indonesia or Australia
Good video
Dont flatter yourselves. You were never even a player.
Neither was china
@@tooltalk In Europe, only Germany is still revelant in tangible manufacturing and hi-tech industries, the others like Britain, France, Italy... are all de-industrialized to the degree they sell virtual financial services like stocks and insurance products as well as pharmaceuticals (Britain), tourism, perfumes, overvalued LV bags (France), pizza, pasta, macroni and tourism (Italy) ...... They are not relevant with the tangible hi-tech industries, especially the emerging hi-tech ones in the 21st century. Australia and New Zealand are just agricultural countries that sell sheep wools, mutton, beef, milk powder and earth minerals. Canada is...sorry, never heard of any hi-tech companies or even any products from Canada, it has a poor sense of presence when talking about technologies and stuffs. Japan is still somewhat a strong player but it is stagnant for too long and it's becoming not very competitive in more and more industries facing South Korea and China's tech rise. South Korea is increasingly competitive in hi-tech but in the emerging ones like AI, EV, automatic driving, brain-computer interface, quantum, 6G..., it is still largely irrelavant, the real black horse is China. China and the US are the true players in these emerging and disruptive technologies that will shape the future. So far, the US lacks industrial power in conventional hi-tech industries like shipbuidling, semiconductor manufacturing, trucks, cranes and heavy machines and others. China, on the other hand, it is becoming a full-MVP player in both conventional and disruptive high technologies.
Never was China? I see, hstory before the 19th century doesn't exist...
In Hungary, they built quite a few battery plants. The issue is that making batteries is a very water intensive process and Hungary is already prone to drought. People protested but of course the lovely government pushed it through. We’ll see the environmental impact in a few years…
From what I hear the labor situation is quite tight in Hungary -- along with Poland, has some of the lowest unemployment rate in the EU zone.
the eu has lost just about everything
Starting with energy supply
EU has plenty supply of hopium.
why is a war? we live in earth and depends on each other. Would European like to take less holidays and produce all lithium batterys?
Nah, no need to invest in batteries, invest it in Ukraine lol
BTW how come when you invest money into buyin' US weapons to arm Ukraine you're not federation of 27 countires, you only need Ursula's sign?
Also, if you need to fix EU's problem, fix it in EU, dont go and make chaos into other countries, specially not in one that you've been playing off for 30 years with EU candidacy and ever changing rules to get accepted in EU!
👋
I don’t think Serbia is ready for EU: it is oriented to Russia… One Hungary in the EU is enough.
@ I definitely agree with you. No country thinking differently than bureaucrats in Brussels who are actually not thinking at all but doing will of those in Washington should be allowed in EU! In the end EU is designed to gather many nations into single one that would be satellite of America and do its bidding even if it’s harming those countries in union.
It’s so not welcome that I can’t wait to see what will happen to it as more sovereign governments get elected!
BTW you totally forgot Slovakia 😂
@@margeert3952 Oh i heard about one union where thinking any different than non-elected decision-maker made you unwelcome and target. 😉
But definitely agree, union that was meant to gather 27 nations into one collective to do bidding of the “ally” even at it’s own cost isn’t supposed to have anyone that thinks different than the ally.
That’s why I can’t wait to see what is going to happen when more sovereign governments get elected in other countries inside EU!
Btw you totally forgot Slovakia! 🤡
After all it is one of those newly elected governments
Not defending serbian government here, after all that is the government that is actually into leading Serbia to disappearing EU and more than willing to give up Serbian land so that EU secures battery industry lol
So kinda have to agree with you, most Serbs are not in favor of joining EU and therefore definitely not ready for it.
That’s why Union should look elsewhere for it’s strategies, like for Example Portugal? 😂
"War"? Seriously? Is that the mindset of EU - everything is about “winning a war“? You could have frame it as improving economic / industrial resilience. It's time to get over this win-lose / kill or be killed scarcity mindset. You can't be good at everything. Make sure you are at least somewhat self-sufficient or have resilient supply chains in the essentials. Cooperation is a concept that is sorely deficient or missing from the Anglo-European mindset.
Europe should just behave itself and become friends with China instead of going against it and all the worries about batteries will be over. Just import extremely cheap batteries from China.
That's why we not only have to reduce our GHG emissions but also reduce our resource footprint significantly over the coming decades. We are not only destroying our atmosphere, but our entire ecosphere.
I'm a realist, and not completely against the idea of new mines in Europe if it's done as cleanly as possible and the resource extraction benefits the people. Natural resources are not the property of corporations. The profits should belong to the people, and if there are private companies involved, then they are paid a fee for the work that they do, they are not the owners of the resource. Otherwise, why would anyone allow this on their land or anywhere near them?
Another question, though: Is all of this for electric cars? Really? Are we sure about this technology?
Cool report, thx DW!👍As it was correctly pointed out in the vid, EU ignored importance of mining and refining lithium and consequently also producing its own batteries for way too long and basically lost the race to China and Asia by being too late. Now it should focus on all of these up/mid/down streams with highest importance primarily on the mid and secondly on the down stream as up stream mining is way too long and complicated process. Nevertheless it should focus on all with different timelines and expectations for each of them. Catching up with the rest of the world especially with China is almost impossible, however EU should definitely develop its own lithium battery ecosystem to minimize risk and complete reliance on the global production. EU has more than enough lithium to supply itself, however there's a long road to it which doesn't end there as EVs require new electric infrastructure and grid upgrade. This is a overall a HUGE interconnected project which requires time and development which EU doesn't have. China in comparison to EU bet BIG on lithium and batteries since early 2000s to free itself from energy dependance and now it's too late for EU to catch up. All EU can do is to develop its own battery infrastructure as fast as possible until it becomes self sustainable while China and USA will clearly lead the way.
Yes, we do have substantial supplies here in the Czech Republic and it's shame that we're not getting full potential out of it. Classical NIMBY approach. I'm all for ecology and I know that mining and processing aren't the most ecological things in the world. But hey, we need to finally take the full renewable road and that's not possible without batteries. And that's not possible without lithium. I'm very worried about Europe because the ship has already sailed and Europe looks like it will wait for it in the harbour for another 20 years. No, it won't 😅
very nice level of humor
Love how journalists still don't understand the difference between (tera)watt.hour and (tera)watt. A glimpse of how much they understand of the issue.
China: oh . You were competing?