Get a quote from us: app.openquote.net/company/artisanelectrics Make sure to check out Tradify and get the perfect digital platform to help your business grow!🤩 - bit.ly/4buvk1M
Too many systems rely on a vendor specific cloud/server based system, leaving you vulnerable to the continuity of that vendor. I went with a system that gives me 100% local control (LAN) control. Not the solution for most people, I understand, but I hate being vulnerable to third party web services
@@mcleank99 I started with Solaredge - but their ability and tardiness with respect to software/firmware updates is well established. I added a Sunsynk 8000, and integrated it with my existing HomeAssistant system. It works reliably, and gives me far greater control over how the system operates. I'd add that the ability of the Solaredge DC battery to store the otherwise clipped output from the PV array is attractive (but I will probably swap it for a Powerwall 3 (and keep the Sunsynk to split the risk)
My best battery for a home: is a battery from a crashed Tesla model 3 LFP (62KwH). Use the GITHUB BYD "Battery-Emulator" process to hook it up to your inverter (I suggest a Fronius). 62KwH for under AUS$6000. You need to do a lot of the work yourself, but if that suits your skills, it is hard to beat.
If you have an outbuilding a quarter mile from your family residence to put it in perhaps. What fool would want repurposed Lithium Ion EV batteries near their loved ones?
@@matthewjenkins1161 I used a Tesla model 3 because it has an LFP battery - much safer chemistry (look it up, no thermal runaway) and safer than the cheap kids battery toys that cause far more fires than car batteries (even when you look at the ratio of EVs in houses compared to kids toys). How many people have cheap batteries inside their houses?
@@matthewjenkins1161 They do not burn ! Like everything, design your storage. btw get an LFP, they do not burn even if you shortcut them. Got 9 year old Nissan Leaf cells as a storage, they never exceed 30°C by design, never go beyond 95%, nothing will happen...
Looked at at lot of options a couple of years ago and went with 20kWh Pylontech US5000 with Solis / Ginlong 5kW inverter / 300L hot water storage, which has worked out great - with Octopus cheap rate overnight charging, it's brought bills down to net zero in summer, around £100/month winter. Will probably go for myenergi eddi to divert excess solar to water heating in summer
Great video! What about Fox ESS? They seem like no quibble/frills, good value for money and seemingly just work but very little media attention for some reason.
@@adamswift1747 I prefer using the web portal for setting charge and discharge times, i find the app is a bit flakey for anything other than checking the overview of the system
I'm a pylontech / Victron Energy freak, as love fine tuning / optimising / home assistant etc..... but realise that I'm probably in the minority on here. EDIT: Really great, unbiased & fair review, you’ll soon be on Morning Live-Well done
I basically agree with Jordan's points for the overall summary, he is doing a really great job, but I don't agree that, the other cheap brands are all "rubbish". Every company has its different positioning and strategy, we can say we are good, but it doesn't mean others are bad, it's not true and fair or kind, it's a little arrogant. Just understand and respect and make our own choices, if we can help more by doing our a little bit, then we may feel more meaningful, but it shouldn't be a goal pursued for the sake of pursuing it.
I'm using a 15kWh Fogstar battery on a Victron system. Fogstar do have a DIY battery solution, but their own pre-made solution was cheaper at the time. Victron of course is one of the best battery storage off grid solutions in my opinion, they can be expanded anyway you like.
same, using mostly pylontech. they look mor industrial then most home batteries but find upgradeability a huge advantage since they have 2,4. 3,6 and 5kw 48v battery units that can be mixed if needed. (not using them with victron, but mostly with Deye (sunsync for UK) all in one inverters)
For the German/Swiss/Austrian customers definitely look at E3DC. Great Battery/Inverter combo with software, AC Car charger with options to charge on solar only. New is the DC charger with an option vor V2H if you own a VW
Had a GivEnergy installed about a month ago. I wanted it in the garage, and the install was straightforward, but the commissioning has been painful (and is still not complete). Fair assessment, I can't wait for it to start working with my solar (already installed). I think it's a fair assessment, my installer warned me of the commissioning issues beforehand, and had the same attitude as you (not actively recommending the product due to the commissioning issues)
I had all in one fitted all went well and as the installer had experience the commissioning went seamlessly had no issues and already saved me from 3 power cuts
My Givenergy AIO install went very well. I suppose it depends on the installer's experience with the system. Also, they have announced that you can add additional AIO systems with or without an additional Gateway. That is available now.
For those not currently blessed with an overflowing bank account the DIY option can be a good way of getting the battery needs met for a lot less. I'm currently building a 14.x Kw (13.5Kw usable) LFP SEPLOS MASON 280 16 Cell system with a choice of rack mount or floor on wheels. It's about £500 for the case, with active BMS and Cells are currently £100ea (x16 £2100 for the system with Grade A EVE cells.) You would still need an inverter and MPPT option to charge so it does start to build in price, but for the power it's hard to beat. I've added solar to my garage roof using the rubber feet you showed in a different video. I'll wire into the MPPT as I'm familiar with that part from my van conversion and it's solar. The part I'll be calling on an electrician for is hooking my hybrid system into the grid so it can power the house if needed or feed into the grid if they need it. I know my comment isn't really relevant to most viewers here. But I thought the poorper take on adding a house battery might interest a few.
You might want to consider getting a hybrid inverter instead of a separate MPPT and inverter. It should be a bit cheaper and also a slightly cleaner setup.
Also getting three pylontech us 5000 would give similar results while getting rid of the complexity of buying cells from China and packaging them. For many people the difference in price wouldn't be worth the headaches of buying and packaging cells.
@@Felix-st2ue the cells are from frogstar in the UK but the cells are from China originally, just like most of (if not all) the others. I am looking at a hybrid inverter but not sure which I'm going to get yet, I have time. no rush as money is tight the longer it takes the more I can save. But thanks for the feedback. I should have been clearer on my design. ;)
@BlueSkySmileGTP Yeah, no worries. A lot of people order the cells directly from China to save a few quid. But then you have to have a reliable seller etc.. Your design is perfectly fine if you're willing to and capable of placing the battery. It was just meant as inspiration for people who are a bit less technically versed or want to put in a bit less effort. They can get similar results with just a small amount of extra costs.
Totally agree, I went with 4 server rack DIY cases, Eve MB30 304Ah cells, it's 15Kwh per case, or 60Kwh for my 4 boxes. They are being charged and controlled by an EG4 15kpv hybrid inverter. Each battery case has a JK BMS w/ 200A discharge each. More than enough to run my entire house for a day.
We've just has a second Tesla Powerwall 2 installed (to a nearly 3 year old previous one and solar), now we have the correct amount of battery power for our home and business. Switchover time in the event of a power outage is not quick at all on our system, perhaps new Tesla Gateways are faster. It takes about a second to switch over, so the router etc., has its own UPS. Our installer understands that the Powerwall 2 will be sold alongside the Powerwall 3 for some time, maybe that will change when the Powerwall 3 is compatible with pre-installed Powerwall 2s. I've featured all this on my channel.
Interesting. We have a powerwall 2. The battery is around 10m from the house where the incoming mains is and the gateway. Thinking of adding a second one. But did they need to add additional cables or does the second powerwall 2 just attach to the current one?
Review for installers bias: many aspects are too squewed from an installers perspective with little information on cloud controls by the OEM. Emphasis of styling which I would say is swamped by apparent installation appearances - lots of exposed cables, would be much neater in trunking.
About time we had an honest video like this. A content creator like yourselves willing yo stick their neck out and give sn honest unbiased opinion. Fair play lads much appreciated and some interesting food for thought as an interested prosumer 👌👍🏻
Been watching the channel for over a year now - love this! Jordan's always a great watch and you've showcased loads of great stuff, but as someone who's about to go from 'interested in' to 'handing over money' for this stuff, this was timely and really helpful. I'd honestly never considered the Powerwall - assumed I'd be paying the Mu$k tax, but you prove it to be good value, and the PW3 sounds almost perfect for both my use case and (hopefully) budget, so I'm going to have to do a bit more digging. Keep up the good, nay great, work, Artisans! 👏👍
I can't believe you haven't visited the largest venue on the exhibition, which was Huawei :) Their S1 residential solution is mind blowing. 15 yr guarantee, IP66+ rating, 5tonne withstanding housing (you can crash your car into it basically), 100% DoD, LFP and 28MWh of energy in guarantee period, that's not bad :).
Great video. I have a Powerwall 2 and can say I'm mostly happy with it. However the backup isn't great. Whenever we get a power-cut it tends to trip the RCD in the consumer unit. My installer says they have a report logged with Tesla but this has been going on for more than a year. Tesla seem to suggest using a 100ma RCD but I believe those aren't legal in this country. It feels like the Powerwall was designed for the US market. So I was wondering how all the other batteries in your test integrate with the UK electrical system and if they have any quirks people should be aware off.
I was hoping you would cover the Enphase batteries as I've got Enphase invertors for the solar and likely to get one of their batteries unless there's a coming reason to go with another system.
I think our options and costs are a little different here in California. Our electricity is criminally expensive ($0.35-0.68/kWh) and PG&E NEMA3 buys back at $0.04/kWh - so new solar installs need batteries. Currently Tesla is the hands-down winner for grid-tied applications in terms of cost, quality, and reliability. Additionally, they are now installing with V2G/V2H capability so instead of 13kWh we would have 13+100kWh! We just installed a 8.9 kW of solar with 2 Tesla PW3 and will upgrade to V2H when its available. Anker Solex is perhaps a close second on the grid-tie front - especially if you prefer to go the microinverter and modular battery route. A lot of systems here already have microinverters. (Also, the Anker modular design is nice - maybe. Who really wants less than 13kW? Or if you need to replace the battery after 10yrs, will you really be able to get one?). We found total system costs to be higher. Anker makes nice products but certainly less proven. For DIY and off-grid, EG4 is the clear leader here in terms of price, performance and reliability. We almost went this route - cost/performance is remarkable. Finally for mobile applications, while Victron has been the standard, Outback and EG4 are leading cost with comparable quality.
Jordan you are right it’s all about the kit just like a full CH system quote used to be done - Boiler plus 7 rads is x £. But quality was not the issue and rubbish radiators soon showed their poor build. I have a 5kw ginglong inverter plus pylontech x 4 plus panels x 15 . Got my eye on a PW three to take one of the two arrays (7 and 8). If it’s back compatible. Wife and I watched this before I left for work and she nodded sagely at some of your comments. She clearly has been brainwashed. Wish I knew two years ago what I know now. Thank god for Octopus EV tariff as we now back load for my 6 hours a night and export every day the surplus. Costs me 7p they pay me 8p. Never intended to do that other than in winter. Trevor
Tesla PW3 can actually charge at 8kW if you have multiple units. PW3 with inverter + PW3 expansion without inverter giving 27kWH+ total can charge at 8kW charge rate, one PW3 on its own charges at 5kW. So when you add the expansion pack later in Q4 this it will charge quicker Theres an all white PW3 with powder coated casting coming soon. But probably the biggest thing for PW3 is if you have Tesla charger Gen3 and a PW3 with a gateway or a backup switch then at some point in the future you should be able to run the house on V2H from your Tesla vehicle - Cybertruck already does it in USA and will be in other vehicles at some point soon, already been mention by Drew Baglino at Tesla.
Thank you for a very informative video. One important aspect that I think you should cover is offline operation. What happens if you lose your internet connection? What if the hosting company goes bust? What if the hosting company turns nasty (Chinese government interference)? Do you lose control? What residual functionality (if any) do you have?
It's not the approved way of doing things but the Tesla Backup Gateway II has its own web server so you can log into it from your home network if plugged in or via its own wi-fi, to see the state of the battery charge/discharge/grid connection.
Local control without cloud/internet is absolutely king. I have Tado controlling my heating... outages on their side and my internet (virgin) over the last 2 years have left me without proper control several times. IMHO full local control with some cloud support and extra/optional features is best combo, and I won't ever buy another cloud-only solution again due to the risks Barry raises and my personal experience - this is true for inverters, heat pumps and anything else essential for life.
Im really highly impressed with your review videos. I may have a new Battery for you to review in a few months time - Bringing one in from the USA, but will ultimately be manufactured here in the Sth of the UK. Will keep you updated.
An inverter converts from DC to AC. A rectifier with capacitor filter converts from AC to DC. The inverter is far more complex than a rectifier. I would use separate UPS units for devices that care about clean power, so EPS for the main power is fine.
SMA Sunny Tripower 10.0 Smart Energy + SMA Sunny Home Manager 2.0 + BYD Battery-Box Premium HVM 22.1 for about 11.000 EUR or 500 EUR/kWh ex. VAT is what I would also consider a premium solution. It has no UPS backup like the Sigenergy Sigen hybrid inverter, but SMA offers backup power (on and off grid) with real 3 phase 10 kW (12 kVA short term). And their monitoring is very good.
I'm still undecided on the Bluetti and a dedicated system. I use the AC200max to power my camper van. And at home you could use it too. Albeit you need the larger one for 6kW draw on real home use when cooking. It gives you more use out of it.
Absolutely brilliant video. What a great breakdown of costs and quality. One thing I would love to know. Is what is the minimum amount of solar panels you could use on these systems. Also can you link in a turbine.
This is helpful... Does anyone know where Fox ESS would compare to any of these, either in quality or price? I have 2 quotes for a solar sytem in the pipeline... one supplier is suggesting fox, the other Givenergy Thanks for any comment?
Looks to be about £4100 for 10kWh, 3.3kW AIO, so that's similar to givenergy's 13.5kWh,6kW for £5600. essentially the same price per kWh, but givEnergy's inverter is nearly twice as big. Fogstar+Victron MultiplusII at £3000 odd is significantly cheaper, but more assembly required.
No mention of Fogstar or Victron which so far as I can tell are _actually_ the best ESS systems currently available. Fogstar because of outstanding value (and compatibility with just about everything). Victron because they actually give you local control. So far as I can tell _everyone_ else only has proprietary interfaces and most (all?) need a remote server to let you do anything fancy. Why do they all think we want systems that will degrade significantly if the supplier goes bust or loses interest? I'm just speccing a system now and I can't find anyone other than Victron that actually gives me full local control.
I have a 9.5kw givenergy system on the outside of my house for the last year no problems now having another 9.5kw battery fitted next week along with a free car charger worth a £1000. Thank you Givenergy
Simon and Deang, I also have a 9.52kw (Lithiumironphosphate) battery installed a year ago in the garage by Octopus last year. (13.5 was not available at that point) Some minor firmware update interruptions and the engineer had to call them when first installed for commissioning, but apart from this very happy with it's performance. I like the various import, export options on the app. My line of thinking was that if Octopus, the most innovative energy provider in the UK is willing to put their name and reputation to it. Then it should be good enough for my needs and I they also have direct accountability with any aftercare.
@@vinizzlevinizzle6131 Ah pleased I am not the only one satisfied with Givenergy. I shall be even happier when their car charger becomes compatible with Octopus intelligent so I can then move over from octopus go.
@@vinizzlevinizzle6131 No, you don't have a 9.62kW battery installed. You have a 9.52kWh battery installed. Battery capacity is measured in kWh, not kW. You need to understand the difference between kW and kWh, they are two very different things. You can't do the calculations correctly regarding power, energy, how long the battery will last if you don't understand the difference.
Thanks for your advice. I was tempted by the MyEnergi One finance but from what you've said here it's not suitable for my setup, and is expensive. Back to the Tesla Powerwall and addons I think
I’ve got a Solaredge energy bank and it’s been running for nearly 2 years. Big headaches getting commissioned (dead comms board on inverter), but it’s been pretty reliable ever since. The hardware is excellent. The problem is the software. It’s good for installers, but the full range of control options is not available to home owners. Charging on export limitation for example is unavailable to homeowners. The biggest problem is the price. It’s very pricey! There’s no backup power out of the box either and the backup solution that does exist isn’t backward compatible with the older hd wave inverters. My next upgrade will be 30kWh Pylontech + 6kW Solis hybrid inverter with EPS. Solar fences as well “just because panels are as cheap as wooden fences”.
Good video. Having said that, when you look at the table of price per kWh at the end, you have to question why anyone could justify paying over £500/kWh. Appreciating that tariffs can and do change regularly… right now in the UK you can arbitrage power to the tune of about 15-17p/kWh. Octopus Intelligent Go will sell to you at 7p overnight, which if you then use during the day helps you avoid paying 24p - so around a 17p/kWh saving. Similarly, you can export your unused solar for 15p/kWh so typically it doesn’t make sense to charge the battery with that - but if you do, you’re “paying” 15p with it to avoid grid power at 24p so only saving 9p/kWh. Assuming a single cycle per day, each kWh of battery is therefore saving you a maximum of about 17p. If you do that every day of the year then 365 x .17 = £62. You’re going to need that system to run for a very long time before you even get your capital outlay back if you pay top prices for batteries. Personally I’m very happy with my 9kWh of usable Growatt battery which cost around £350/kWh installed. But I acknowledge how long the payback is going to be.
Neat video. Did CATL really improve that much with regards to home storage LFP batteries? I had an eBike battery 9 years ago and two years ago from CATL and they both were of disastrous quality (both LFP for safety reasons) in the sense that the capacity degraded after only months of use and that the cell voltage, especially on the newer one, dropped so much that at 40% residual energy, you could not longer ride the bike a decent speeds. So I am still very nervous about CATL products.
Fogstar 15kWh: (£1900) plus Victron Multiplus II 5kW (£970) is £2770 Givenergy AllinOne 15kWh/6kW: £5620 (+£550 for the gateway) So why would I pay twice as much for less control and versatility? More to the point why isn't it in this video as an option, whilst Jordan blithely tells us the Givenergy is one of the best value options? Fogstar+Victron is half the price. Even with another £50-300 for control gadgetry (depending how you do it) it's still waaay cheaper. And everyone says Victron is expensive. Or you can have pylontech+Victron if you prefer. Bit more expensive but still a lot better value than GivEnergy or anyone else. And Jordan is right that all the others cost _more_. Not much talk of efficiency or future-proofing here either.
Cracking video Jordan. Some additional systems to throw in the mix for your next round up. Alpha ESS and Duracell. both are half the price of powerwall but have impressive specs. Duracell lacks the "all in one" element, but the Alpha is all in one box. Its a very nice system.
Great concise unbiased review Jordan, really helpful. I'm hanging out for more on the Anker Solix X1, any ideas when it's coming or if it's already here? I'd love to see more on that when you can, I know it'll probably cost an arm and a leg but it's going to be a great investment I reckon. 👍
We had a Givenergy AIO fitted all went well, done in a day, app is good, saved us from three power cuts so far and will charge at 6kW however the DNO has restricted discharge to 3kW and also denied my application for more solar PV
Is that the total inverter discharge limited to 3 kW, or just export to the grid? Surely only the latter impacts the wider distribution network and most good inverters allow this to be limited?
A really good summary, with some consumer-friendly detail too. Being about to select a system for installation, this was absolutely the video I had not even hoped to find, and pitched very well. Only one bit of feedback for what could have been added….I’d have found V2H (present or future) capabilities for these systems super useful too. (A 9 out of 10, in fact, had this been included !!) Solid job, all the same.
Tesla Powerwall 3 is available and being installed already, I know of at least one person that's had one installed a couple of weeks back, and I'm sure there are install videos on here in the UK.
Great video as always, I’m thinking on getting a Powerwall 3 to go with our EV and charge at the cheap rate at 7p without the solars. Do you see more people doing this, and is it worth it ?
The other benefit with the SolarEdge is if you have an export limitation, or a lower inverter faceplate rating than your panels will peak at on a sunny day, you can divert that excess into the battery - so if your panels were generating 8.6kW of power and your inverter was only 3.6kW you could be converting 3.6kW to AC and charging the battery up at 5kW. With an AC coupled battery you'd be losing 5kW to heat with an undersized inverter. Game changing for the ever more punitive export limitations being agreed by DNO's
One thing I’ve discovered is that although SolarEdge HD Wave inverters can connect up to 3 SolarEdge batteries, only one of them can be charged from the grid (or PV), the other 2 can only be charged from PV. I was looking to get a second battery added to my system, mainly to allow me to fully run the house in winter using cheaper overnight electricity, but was told I couldn’t grid-charge a second battery.
Cracking video. By far the most useful battery comparison video out there. I had not heard of Sigen other than your intersolar video and had dismissed them. Looks like I’ll be comparing them with GE (I dislike Tesla) - a local installer puts GEs in cupboards for external mounting.
I find my LG Resu Prime 16Kwh & SolarEdge HomeWave inverter perfect. Just a shame it's not supported on the newer HomeWave inverter. It a bit of a micro-manger if you want to min/max it, but it does what we need.
Great video. Despite the key board warriors on here 🙄 Could you clarify the ip rating for the Sigenergy Sigenstor please. (You didn’t mention it at all) Would you install in an outdoor environment completely unprotected. The manufacturer states ip66, but to protect from rain and direct sunlight.
We install sunsynk cost 8-10 tech back up 5-10 qualify 7-10 we also do the odd Ecoflow kit early stuff not good but its getting better Tec back up 6-10
Thank you for this video. Very useful. Im looking to install solar. Batteries and to have back up for my home. As i live in a rural location, we do get powercuts. My main concern is that you say these should be installed outside if possible. I live near the cornish Coast and wanted to know if this would be an issue? I have enjoyed your videos as I started watching because of your choice of tooling. I have worked for Hilti for 14 years and find it good to get customers' views on our tooling.
I'd love to hear your take on the two ZnBr batteries from Australia, the plating-flow battery from Redflow and the gel battery from Gelion. Both seem to have the potential for very very longevity but somehow they are not hitting the market for the home owner. if they are reasonably priced, their longevity make them a clear favorite.
My SunSynk batteries are advertised as being 100% depth-of-discharge, but even though the inverter is told to go to 0%, the batteries only go down to 10% and not 0%. I do feel conned as I have less capacity then I paid for... Apart from that, I'm really pleased with my SunSynk 8.8KW system.
CATL aren't just one of the biggest battery manufacturers, they are the biggest, with 37% of world EV and storage battery production capacity. BYD are second with 16%, LG Chem - 15%, Panasonic - 8%, Samsung 5% etc
Your videos have been incredibly insightful for a while range of information. The only thing that would really help average price breakdowns for installs for these as it's really hard to judge how much these systems cost comparatively.
I figured this would be the case, I think what I was thinking about is that you're team has incredible experience with systems of various sizes and tech that getting rough ideas would be helping. Theres quite a few videos on prices for people who install specific systems but there is nobody on TH-cam that has provided data on all these various systems as a whole. Being able to see various ecosystems and the installations costs associated with them based on size / capacity is difficult to understand. I'm currently looking to get a solar system but the prices have varied so wildly it becomes so hard to make a decision on what ecosystem to go for and what I might actually need. I understand the serious amount of variables associated with these installs given each house will be unique so understandably price data is going to be hard to summarize. Please keep up these comparative videos as it sheds so much light on ecosystems in general and it's a massive help! Thank you
Wonder if you can take the 9.6 kW 240v NEMA 14-50 output of the Cybertruck bed and hook it up to the 'generator' input of the a battery system? Seems like it would work just like a generator with a L1 & L2 coming from the generator and there is a neutral balancing transformer in the battery system to create the 120v capable input into your backup loads.
I'd like to see a comparison with pylontech as they are ones we've got installed. Also how easy is it to swap out existing batteries? We're using a Solis inverter with PV optimisers.
Spot on 👍 I have a solis hybrid 5kw inverter and 10kw of Puredrive batteries and it's very cost effective Vs these other systems and cheaper to buy and install. I can expand the batteries up to 25kw if needed.
Glad to know my preference is still valid. Thank you Tesla. Interesting to see in 5 years time what will happen with Samsung's solid state batteries with double the energy density. I can see this tech dropping to £100/kWh very quickly. I think most would want 12kW inverter as a minimum, particularly if you are going all electric and can't rely on Gas or solid fuels for hot water. They have to get smaller as these solutions are just too big for many UK dwellings. Shame we can't have solutions which can go in the ground. I could quite easily have one in my driveway then and would be very close to my incoming supply and Solar PV.
Good video but waiting for Sodium Ion based system . Funny thing about the new regulations for fire protection......it is still ok to park a petrol car in the garage...smh
Great video! Only one critique… might be better to apply a percentage (weighting), to each of the battery’s characteristics to get a better measure of each product. For instance, the battery’s specs are far more important than their looks and ease of installation. Other than that, all good!!
Interesting. I have a solax ac coupled battery system with a 5kW inverter "powered" by 10kW of panels 5 east, 5 west with two solax inverters. A 3.5KW Inverter on the battery wouldn't power my oven (4kW on boost), let alone the microwave and kettle.... Given that I already had a Zappi and Eddi, I was tempted by thee Libbi, but it was expensive amd the inverter not up to the job (3.5kW)
I prefer those without inverter but one wiht integrated inverter but without the solar attachment. I think though that is a very inefficent way. Sad part is that there aren't that many open inverters that work with these things. I did wonder about HV Pylon Tech? But sadly doesn't do with Fronius.
If you were recommending a fresh install, would you opt for the Tesla or sigenergy if it were largely just overnight charging. It would be for an overnight charge and use during the day with only small 4 panel 2.4kwh system on a house using around 0.8kw per hour ambient. Crazy ambient due to control4 system.
Very useful video however you don’t mention if any/all of these systems do smart charging. I dipped my toe in the battery market 4 to 5 years ago and have smallish Moixa battery which uses time of year and weather forecast to decide level to charge to overnight as it knows when my solar panels will kick in to recharge . So in the middle of summer, with forecast sunny days it may only charge to 40% overnight in cheap rate electricity as it knows there will be energy from the solar panels to power house and recharge battery. Conversely in the winter it will charge to 100% each night due to less daylight hours for panels to click in. This is incredibly useful smart feature but would be good to know if all new battery systems have that as standard?
Needs an update. Givenergy All In One now has a Inverter in as does the Tesla Powerwall. Mind those are the bits that tend to have the earliest failure rate so not sure it is an advance ? As the battery in AIO is LFP tech is that really going to burst in to flames ? Yes install/commissioning was terrible but it works very well.
I have difficulty believing anyone is giving a truly unbiased opinion and is being truefull when they state that all the other systems out there are rubbish.
Yes, that is complete bollocks. There are some excellent systems out there that do not get a mention in this video. Victron +battery of your choice, is the most obvious one.
Beware of general claims about working temperature , the amount of power you can get in and out will be much lower at low temps and may not even charge at all below 10 deg C - for my battery ( only one I could get after C19) there manufacturer actually deleted the low temperature charge curves from the manual vs. earlier versions. Batteries outside or in detached garages etc. will be useless for most of the winter.
Very good information. Could you do a similar version regarding panels? In the next 2 years I'll be looking to upgrade a small off grid system in Portugal to something more substantial and modern world appropriate. The choice of systems locally seems to be far smaller and usually down to installer preference. Are there any videos in your 600 that might begin my offgrid education and who knows what will be available then?
Great and very informative video , thank you! It would really be helpful if you could also include in your reviews details of where these batteries and made - out of principle would avoid anything Chinese particularly if there is parts and warranty exposure in the future ! Thank you …👍
@@davideyres955 couldn't justify changing as already have 10kW solar into triple string Solis inverter! Adding second Powerwall 2 gave me the additional storage we needed plus 10kW max house draw capability 👍
@@edc1569 Effectively means we will only ever pay 7p a kW for electricity. For most of the year we will be just using stored solar generation. All electric house here, so savings are very significant. Last month's bill was £60, which covered charging two EV's, all heating by ASHP and all cooking/lighting etc. The goal is energy independence 👍
Outstanding and informative video. I plan to move in the next 2 years, so didnt want to put up Solar but found out I can use just the battery bank option and as a Octopus customer, I could use the overnight cheap traffic to top them up. When I move I can get a qualified electrican to unhook it all and re-connect it to the new house. As we all WFH 80% of the time, the electric bill is very high. Well that is the idea, Does that sound fessiable ?
You can do this for sure, but be aware *I believe* you will need to get DNO approval before installation at your new property if your battery inverter is over 3.68 kW power. Otherwise the payback from battery without solar is much worse (no "free" energy from your roof), so you will absolutely need a time-based tariff and cheap period to charge up. Your best money saving will be to replace bulbs, appliances and habits to be more energy efficient firstly.
@@TheBadoctopus Thank you. I had replaced all bulbs when I moved in and updated them again 2 years ago. All appliances are almost A or A++ rating. All devices that can, go into eco or standby mode when not used. I understand about the "Free power" but I cant waste the money till I move into the next house, which I will install Solar and looking as some small Wind turbines for the garden lights, which run the basic vanlife style charging process.
What about Fronius then? Have the ecosystem (car charger / solar boiler controller / battery) Newly released Verso variants has battery access so now battery systems cover 3kW to 33kW arrays oversizing 150%DC with ability to charge batterys with over-capacity like solaredge DC battery.
There is a NEWS article on watched in TH-cam - and I don't recall in which State in AUSTRALIA it was in - however - the news item referred to s group of homes with solar panels sharing the energy they produced. I may find the URL when I search through the history - and will post the link when I find it - providing of course I have not yet deleted that history - as I often do
Maybe not a question for an installer? Would it be possible to buy an EV and use it as a backup power source, and power it from lets say octopus cheap rate tariff? I qualify for the Motability scheme due to sight loss issues, my partner works 12 round trip miles from home 9-5 for 4 days a week. Car would be sat in drive (batteries outside obviously) I was looking at Hyundai Ionic 5 as preferred vehicle. May thanks in advance T
Good you mention maximum load. It's not just capacity (KWh) but output (KW). You can have the largest capacity in the world but if you can only draw 1KW power then it is pretty much useless for anything except powering lights and your TV. My system has a max sustained load of 5KW which covers most things (washing/cooking etc). If 1Million homes in UK had a battery which discharged at peak time this could replace the output from about 3 power stations which would be a massive saving in electrical infrastructure.
A massive saving in electrical infrastructure but you are forcing costs on to the consumer. Do you really think consumers should be forced in to spending thousands of pounds on a battery installation?
Why review GivEnergy with the lack of enthusiasm about the general build quality? Warranties are only as good as the longevity of the company, which is as long as a piece of string! All I worry about is that the cloud connectivity to the parent company, usually in the PRC, could be lost in an instant if the international relations deteriorate due to external political or economic tensions, dependent on the occupant of the White House.
Exactly. There is not enough emphasis on what is _local_ control and what is _remote_ control. It really does matter. I'm almost certainly going to go with Victron because they are the only people that expose everything locally.
These prices per kWh are slightly misleading and assume are excluding install costs as I haven't found anyone selling a PW3 for £6,493 (£481 x 13.5)? If you are offering at this price I'd snap your hand off!
![[#2024MAMA] BIGBANG (빅뱅) - 뱅뱅뱅 (BANG BANG BANG) + FANTASTIC BABY | Mnet 241123 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EQsYfiPR9uM/mqdefault.jpg)
Get a quote from us: app.openquote.net/company/artisanelectrics
Make sure to check out Tradify and get the perfect digital platform to help your business grow!🤩 -
bit.ly/4buvk1M
Very interesting. Only gripe is that you're not consistent with your comments on outside installation.
The Sigen is not a genuine UPS, it doesn't have a line filter.
Should also try review Franklin
Used your quote system last week, still not had a reply.
@@VetinariUK Hi! Did you submit all the photos and videos requested? If so then someone should be in touch soon.
Too many systems rely on a vendor specific cloud/server based system, leaving you vulnerable to the continuity of that vendor. I went with a system that gives me 100% local control (LAN) control. Not the solution for most people, I understand, but I hate being vulnerable to third party web services
Shame Microsoft didn't have your insight
I have the same concerns. What system did you get?
@@mcleank99consider integrators that can build around Victron. Victron is a true off grid system, from commissioning to usage.
@@mcleank99 I started with Solaredge - but their ability and tardiness with respect to software/firmware updates is well established. I added a Sunsynk 8000, and integrated it with my existing HomeAssistant system. It works reliably, and gives me far greater control over how the system operates.
I'd add that the ability of the Solaredge DC battery to store the otherwise clipped output from the PV array is attractive (but I will probably swap it for a Powerwall 3 (and keep the Sunsynk to split the risk)
Agreed
My best battery for a home: is a battery from a crashed Tesla model 3 LFP (62KwH). Use the GITHUB BYD "Battery-Emulator" process to hook it up to your inverter (I suggest a Fronius). 62KwH for under AUS$6000. You need to do a lot of the work yourself, but if that suits your skills, it is hard to beat.
If you have an outbuilding a quarter mile from your family residence to put it in perhaps.
What fool would want repurposed Lithium Ion EV batteries near their loved ones?
@@matthewjenkins1161 I used a Tesla model 3 because it has an LFP battery - much safer chemistry (look it up, no thermal runaway) and safer than the cheap kids battery toys that cause far more fires than car batteries (even when you look at the ratio of EVs in houses compared to kids toys). How many people have cheap batteries inside their houses?
.
@@matthewjenkins1161 They do not burn ! Like everything, design your storage. btw get an LFP, they do not burn even if you shortcut them. Got 9 year old Nissan Leaf cells as a storage, they never exceed 30°C by design, never go beyond 95%, nothing will happen...
You can buy lfp cells for around £50 a kwhr, although they are suppose to be safer, have seen videos where damaged cells have caught fire
Looked at at lot of options a couple of years ago and went with 20kWh Pylontech US5000 with Solis / Ginlong 5kW inverter / 300L hot water storage, which has worked out great - with Octopus cheap rate overnight charging, it's brought bills down to net zero in summer, around £100/month winter. Will probably go for myenergi eddi to divert excess solar to water heating in summer
Givenergy 9.5kw battery and separate inverter installed over a year ago. Runs perfectly and commissioned
easily. Expandable too, much better set up .
Same for me. Can’t really fault it in the time I’ve had it.
Great video! What about Fox ESS? They seem like no quibble/frills, good value for money and seemingly just work but very little media attention for some reason.
just had a fox ess system installed and its working great, so easy to upgrade too
@@mbezikIs the app easy to use? For force discharging etc?
@@adamswift1747 I prefer using the web portal for setting charge and discharge times, i find the app is a bit flakey for anything other than checking the overview of the system
It would be good to mention battery chemistry. LiNMC I wouldn't touch with a barge pole. Which of these are LiFePO4?
Powerwall 3 is LFP, Powerwall 2 is NMC SIGEnergy is LFP, Solareedge is NMC, Libbi LFP, GIV LFP
Thank You Everybody for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth....
Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste
🙏🏻 😊 ✌ ☮ ❤
I'm a pylontech / Victron Energy freak, as love fine tuning / optimising / home assistant etc..... but realise that I'm probably in the minority on here. EDIT: Really great, unbiased & fair review, you’ll soon be on Morning Live-Well done
I basically agree with Jordan's points for the overall summary, he is doing a really great job, but I don't agree that, the other cheap brands are all "rubbish". Every company has its different positioning and strategy, we can say we are good, but it doesn't mean others are bad, it's not true and fair or kind, it's a little arrogant. Just understand and respect and make our own choices, if we can help more by doing our a little bit, then we may feel more meaningful, but it shouldn't be a goal pursued for the sake of pursuing it.
Thanks 😊
I'm using a 15kWh Fogstar battery on a Victron system. Fogstar do have a DIY battery solution, but their own pre-made solution was cheaper at the time.
Victron of course is one of the best battery storage off grid solutions in my opinion, they can be expanded anyway you like.
same, using mostly pylontech. they look mor industrial then most home batteries but find upgradeability a huge advantage since they have 2,4. 3,6 and 5kw 48v battery units that can be mixed if needed. (not using them with victron, but mostly with Deye (sunsync for UK) all in one inverters)
Tesla and SIGEnergy are opening up their API's so they shoudlbecome more interesting over time for the tinkerers
Just a small thing. KWH means Kelvin Watt Henry in SI metric units! Kilowatt hours is kWh. Still like your channel!
For the German/Swiss/Austrian customers definitely look at E3DC. Great Battery/Inverter combo with software, AC Car charger with options to charge on solar only. New is the DC charger with an option vor V2H if you own a VW
Thanks for the info!
Had a GivEnergy installed about a month ago. I wanted it in the garage, and the install was straightforward, but the commissioning has been painful (and is still not complete). Fair assessment, I can't wait for it to start working with my solar (already installed). I think it's a fair assessment, my installer warned me of the commissioning issues beforehand, and had the same attitude as you (not actively recommending the product due to the commissioning issues)
Great to hear your feedback thanks
I had all in one fitted all went well and as the installer had experience the commissioning went seamlessly had no issues and already saved me from 3 power cuts
Our givenergy AIO has been great, installer brilliant, givenergy responsive. No regrets whatsoever.
My Givenergy AIO install went very well. I suppose it depends on the installer's experience with the system. Also, they have announced that you can add additional AIO systems with or without an additional Gateway. That is available now.
For those not currently blessed with an overflowing bank account the DIY option can be a good way of getting the battery needs met for a lot less. I'm currently building a 14.x Kw (13.5Kw usable) LFP SEPLOS MASON 280 16 Cell system with a choice of rack mount or floor on wheels.
It's about £500 for the case, with active BMS and Cells are currently £100ea (x16 £2100 for the system with Grade A EVE cells.) You would still need an inverter and MPPT option to charge so it does start to build in price, but for the power it's hard to beat.
I've added solar to my garage roof using the rubber feet you showed in a different video. I'll wire into the MPPT as I'm familiar with that part from my van conversion and it's solar.
The part I'll be calling on an electrician for is hooking my hybrid system into the grid so it can power the house if needed or feed into the grid if they need it.
I know my comment isn't really relevant to most viewers here. But I thought the poorper take on adding a house battery might interest a few.
You might want to consider getting a hybrid inverter instead of a separate MPPT and inverter. It should be a bit cheaper and also a slightly cleaner setup.
Also getting three pylontech us 5000 would give similar results while getting rid of the complexity of buying cells from China and packaging them. For many people the difference in price wouldn't be worth the headaches of buying and packaging cells.
@@Felix-st2ue the cells are from frogstar in the UK but the cells are from China originally, just like most of (if not all) the others.
I am looking at a hybrid inverter but not sure which I'm going to get yet, I have time. no rush as money is tight the longer it takes the more I can save. But thanks for the feedback. I should have been clearer on my design. ;)
@BlueSkySmileGTP Yeah, no worries. A lot of people order the cells directly from China to save a few quid. But then you have to have a reliable seller etc.. Your design is perfectly fine if you're willing to and capable of placing the battery. It was just meant as inspiration for people who are a bit less technically versed or want to put in a bit less effort. They can get similar results with just a small amount of extra costs.
Totally agree, I went with 4 server rack DIY cases, Eve MB30 304Ah cells, it's 15Kwh per case, or 60Kwh for my 4 boxes. They are being charged and controlled by an EG4 15kpv hybrid inverter. Each battery case has a JK BMS w/ 200A discharge each. More than enough to run my entire house for a day.
We've just has a second Tesla Powerwall 2 installed (to a nearly 3 year old previous one and solar), now we have the correct amount of battery power for our home and business. Switchover time in the event of a power outage is not quick at all on our system, perhaps new Tesla Gateways are faster. It takes about a second to switch over, so the router etc., has its own UPS. Our installer understands that the Powerwall 2 will be sold alongside the Powerwall 3 for some time, maybe that will change when the Powerwall 3 is compatible with pre-installed Powerwall 2s. I've featured all this on my channel.
Interesting. We have a powerwall 2. The battery is around 10m from the house where the incoming mains is and the gateway. Thinking of adding a second one. But did they need to add additional cables or does the second powerwall 2 just attach to the current one?
Review for installers bias: many aspects are too squewed from an installers perspective with little information on cloud controls by the OEM.
Emphasis of styling which I would say is swamped by apparent installation appearances - lots of exposed cables, would be much neater in trunking.
Yeah, this video is more 'which ESS are best for installers', than for consumers, which is fine, but it's not the same.
About time we had an honest video like this. A content creator like yourselves willing yo stick their neck out and give sn honest unbiased opinion. Fair play lads much appreciated and some interesting food for thought as an interested prosumer 👌👍🏻
I appreciate that thanks 🙏
Been watching the channel for over a year now - love this! Jordan's always a great watch and you've showcased loads of great stuff, but as someone who's about to go from 'interested in' to 'handing over money' for this stuff, this was timely and really helpful.
I'd honestly never considered the Powerwall - assumed I'd be paying the Mu$k tax, but you prove it to be good value, and the PW3 sounds almost perfect for both my use case and (hopefully) budget, so I'm going to have to do a bit more digging.
Keep up the good, nay great, work, Artisans! 👏👍
Glad the video was of help and thanks for your lovely comment 👍
Had Powerwall installed 2021, another 2022 + Gateway, another 2023= 1 week emergency supply. Perfect.
Hello, I have a question? What happened with the Anker Solix X1. So many good words about it. Does anybody knows? Greetings, Arie, the Dutchman.
Pretty clever stuff being able to invert AC to DC, maybe this was a mistake that needs to be rectified
I can't believe you haven't visited the largest venue on the exhibition, which was Huawei :) Their S1 residential solution is mind blowing. 15 yr guarantee, IP66+ rating, 5tonne withstanding housing (you can crash your car into it basically), 100% DoD, LFP and 28MWh of energy in guarantee period, that's not bad :).
Would like to see how the Enphase Battery 5P system works out in this comparison!
Nicolas Romano has just done a similar review but included the Enphase’s. They seem pretty good IMO
**Raimo
Enphase is very good. They have the best warranty and fantastic customer support. They are a quality US company and not some random Chinese company 😊
Great video. I have a Powerwall 2 and can say I'm mostly happy with it. However the backup isn't great. Whenever we get a power-cut it tends to trip the RCD in the consumer unit. My installer says they have a report logged with Tesla but this has been going on for more than a year. Tesla seem to suggest using a 100ma RCD but I believe those aren't legal in this country. It feels like the Powerwall was designed for the US market. So I was wondering how all the other batteries in your test integrate with the UK electrical system and if they have any quirks people should be aware off.
I was hoping you would cover the Enphase batteries as I've got Enphase invertors for the solar and likely to get one of their batteries unless there's a coming reason to go with another system.
Enphase is supposed to be very good quality and best warranty (15 years for battery) 😊
Whole house UPS 🎉. Sigenstor for the win. Plus the massive discharge rate 💪.
You got that right!
just watch for the AI deciding you don't deserve power anymore🤪
I think our options and costs are a little different here in California. Our electricity is criminally expensive ($0.35-0.68/kWh) and PG&E NEMA3 buys back at $0.04/kWh - so new solar installs need batteries.
Currently Tesla is the hands-down winner for grid-tied applications in terms of cost, quality, and reliability. Additionally, they are now installing with V2G/V2H capability so instead of 13kWh we would have 13+100kWh! We just installed a 8.9 kW of solar with 2 Tesla PW3 and will upgrade to V2H when its available.
Anker Solex is perhaps a close second on the grid-tie front - especially if you prefer to go the microinverter and modular battery route. A lot of systems here already have microinverters. (Also, the Anker modular design is nice - maybe. Who really wants less than 13kW? Or if you need to replace the battery after 10yrs, will you really be able to get one?). We found total system costs to be higher. Anker makes nice products but certainly less proven.
For DIY and off-grid, EG4 is the clear leader here in terms of price, performance and reliability. We almost went this route - cost/performance is remarkable.
Finally for mobile applications, while Victron has been the standard, Outback and EG4 are leading cost with comparable quality.
Jordan you are right it’s all about the kit just like a full CH system quote used to be done - Boiler plus 7 rads is x £. But quality was not the issue and rubbish radiators soon showed their poor build.
I have a 5kw ginglong inverter plus pylontech x 4 plus panels x 15 . Got my eye on a PW three to take one of the two arrays (7 and 8). If it’s back compatible. Wife and I watched this before I left for work and she nodded sagely at some of your comments. She clearly has been brainwashed.
Wish I knew two years ago what I know now. Thank god for Octopus EV tariff as we now back load for my 6 hours a night and export every day the surplus. Costs me 7p they pay me 8p. Never intended to do that other than in winter. Trevor
Tesla PW3 can actually charge at 8kW if you have multiple units. PW3 with inverter + PW3 expansion without inverter giving 27kWH+ total can charge at 8kW charge rate, one PW3 on its own charges at 5kW. So when you add the expansion pack later in Q4 this it will charge quicker
Theres an all white PW3 with powder coated casting coming soon.
But probably the biggest thing for PW3 is if you have Tesla charger Gen3 and a PW3 with a gateway or a backup switch then at some point in the future you should be able to run the house on V2H from your Tesla vehicle - Cybertruck already does it in USA and will be in other vehicles at some point soon, already been mention by Drew Baglino at Tesla.
Thank you for a very informative video. One important aspect that I think you should cover is offline operation. What happens if you lose your internet connection? What if the hosting company goes bust? What if the hosting company turns nasty (Chinese government interference)? Do you lose control? What residual functionality (if any) do you have?
Very good question! Will add it to the list of things to discuss in future videos 👍
It's not the approved way of doing things but the Tesla Backup Gateway II has its own web server so you can log into it from your home network if plugged in or via its own wi-fi, to see the state of the battery charge/discharge/grid connection.
Local control without cloud/internet is absolutely king. I have Tado controlling my heating... outages on their side and my internet (virgin) over the last 2 years have left me without proper control several times.
IMHO full local control with some cloud support and extra/optional features is best combo, and I won't ever buy another cloud-only solution again due to the risks Barry raises and my personal experience - this is true for inverters, heat pumps and anything else essential for life.
Underrated aspect, thats very important.
Im really highly impressed with your review videos. I may have a new Battery for you to review in a few months time - Bringing one in from the USA, but will ultimately be manufactured here in the Sth of the UK. Will keep you updated.
An inverter converts from DC to AC. A rectifier with capacitor filter converts from AC to DC. The inverter is far more complex than a rectifier.
I would use separate UPS units for devices that care about clean power, so EPS for the main power is fine.
SMA Sunny Tripower 10.0 Smart Energy + SMA Sunny Home Manager 2.0 + BYD Battery-Box Premium HVM 22.1 for about 11.000 EUR or 500 EUR/kWh ex. VAT is what I would also consider a premium solution. It has no UPS backup like the Sigenergy Sigen hybrid inverter, but SMA offers backup power (on and off grid) with real 3 phase 10 kW (12 kVA short term). And their monitoring is very good.
EG4 Server rack batteries are around $240 US per KW ........ and made for OFF GRID.... good way to go.
I'm still undecided on the Bluetti and a dedicated system. I use the AC200max to power my camper van. And at home you could use it too. Albeit you need the larger one for 6kW draw on real home use when cooking.
It gives you more use out of it.
I’ve got a GivEnergy 10KWH, with 4KWof solar - never had a single minute of problem in 18 months.
Great reviews & certainly helps people make up their mind. Look forward to a possible Victron review in the future. Good stuff 👍
Absolutely brilliant video.
What a great breakdown of costs and quality.
One thing I would love to know.
Is what is the minimum amount of solar panels you could use on these systems. Also can you link in a turbine.
This is helpful... Does anyone know where Fox ESS would compare to any of these, either in quality or price? I have 2 quotes for a solar sytem in the pipeline... one supplier is suggesting fox, the other Givenergy Thanks for any comment?
Looks to be about £4100 for 10kWh, 3.3kW AIO, so that's similar to givenergy's 13.5kWh,6kW for £5600. essentially the same price per kWh, but givEnergy's inverter is nearly twice as big.
Fogstar+Victron MultiplusII at £3000 odd is significantly cheaper, but more assembly required.
No mention of Fogstar or Victron which so far as I can tell are _actually_ the best ESS systems currently available. Fogstar because of outstanding value (and compatibility with just about everything). Victron because they actually give you local control. So far as I can tell _everyone_ else only has proprietary interfaces and most (all?) need a remote server to let you do anything fancy.
Why do they all think we want systems that will degrade significantly if the supplier goes bust or loses interest?
I'm just speccing a system now and I can't find anyone other than Victron that actually gives me full local control.
I have a 9.5kw givenergy system on the outside of my house for the last year no problems now having another 9.5kw battery fitted next week along with a free car charger worth a £1000. Thank you Givenergy
9.5kW battery? Are you sure about that?
You might want to recheck your units.
Apologies 9.5kwh system
Simon and Deang, I also have a 9.52kw (Lithiumironphosphate) battery installed a year ago in the garage by Octopus last year. (13.5 was not available at that point) Some minor firmware update interruptions and the engineer had to call them when first installed for commissioning, but apart from this very happy with it's performance. I like the various import, export options on the app. My line of thinking was that if Octopus, the most innovative energy provider in the UK is willing to put their name and reputation to it. Then it should be good enough for my needs and I they also have direct accountability with any aftercare.
@@vinizzlevinizzle6131 Ah pleased I am not the only one satisfied with Givenergy. I shall be even happier when their car charger becomes compatible with Octopus intelligent so I can then move over from octopus go.
@@vinizzlevinizzle6131 No, you don't have a 9.62kW battery installed.
You have a 9.52kWh battery installed.
Battery capacity is measured in kWh, not kW.
You need to understand the difference between kW and kWh, they are two very different things.
You can't do the calculations correctly regarding power, energy, how long the battery will last if you don't understand the difference.
Thanks for your advice. I was tempted by the MyEnergi One finance but from what you've said here it's not suitable for my setup, and is expensive. Back to the Tesla Powerwall and addons I think
great info well presented, other brands fronius and BYD HV battery, enphase, and the other System i use is Sungrow with BYD hv battery
I’ve got a Solaredge energy bank and it’s been running for nearly 2 years. Big headaches getting commissioned (dead comms board on inverter), but it’s been pretty reliable ever since. The hardware is excellent.
The problem is the software. It’s good for installers, but the full range of control options is not available to home owners. Charging on export limitation for example is unavailable to homeowners.
The biggest problem is the price. It’s very pricey! There’s no backup power out of the box either and the backup solution that does exist isn’t backward compatible with the older hd wave inverters.
My next upgrade will be 30kWh Pylontech + 6kW Solis hybrid inverter with EPS. Solar fences as well “just because panels are as cheap as wooden fences”.
I am very surprised you did not look into enphase as well.
Good video. Having said that, when you look at the table of price per kWh at the end, you have to question why anyone could justify paying over £500/kWh.
Appreciating that tariffs can and do change regularly… right now in the UK you can arbitrage power to the tune of about 15-17p/kWh. Octopus Intelligent Go will sell to you at 7p overnight, which if you then use during the day helps you avoid paying 24p - so around a 17p/kWh saving.
Similarly, you can export your unused solar for 15p/kWh so typically it doesn’t make sense to charge the battery with that - but if you do, you’re “paying” 15p with it to avoid grid power at 24p so only saving 9p/kWh.
Assuming a single cycle per day, each kWh of battery is therefore saving you a maximum of about 17p. If you do that every day of the year then 365 x .17 = £62.
You’re going to need that system to run for a very long time before you even get your capital outlay back if you pay top prices for batteries.
Personally I’m very happy with my 9kWh of usable Growatt battery which cost around £350/kWh installed. But I acknowledge how long the payback is going to be.
Which is why a Fogstar (EVE/Seplos) battery at £120/kWh makes a lot more sense than all the options in the video.
Neat video.
Did CATL really improve that much with regards to home storage LFP batteries? I had an eBike battery 9 years ago and two years ago from CATL and they both were of disastrous quality (both LFP for safety reasons) in the sense that the capacity degraded after only months of use and that the cell voltage, especially on the newer one, dropped so much that at 40% residual energy, you could not longer ride the bike a decent speeds.
So I am still very nervous about CATL products.
Fogstar 15kWh: (£1900) plus Victron Multiplus II 5kW (£970) is £2770
Givenergy AllinOne 15kWh/6kW: £5620 (+£550 for the gateway)
So why would I pay twice as much for less control and versatility?
More to the point why isn't it in this video as an option, whilst Jordan blithely tells us the Givenergy is one of the best value options? Fogstar+Victron is half the price. Even with another £50-300 for control gadgetry (depending how you do it) it's still waaay cheaper. And everyone says Victron is expensive.
Or you can have pylontech+Victron if you prefer. Bit more expensive but still a lot better value than GivEnergy or anyone else. And Jordan is right that all the others cost _more_.
Not much talk of efficiency or future-proofing here either.
Great all round consideration - currently looking at new system to have installed found this very informative thanks
That was very informative and I learned a lot from it. Many thanks for the video..
Glad it was helpful!
Cracking video Jordan.
Some additional systems to throw in the mix for your next round up. Alpha ESS and Duracell. both are half the price of powerwall but have impressive specs.
Duracell lacks the "all in one" element, but the Alpha is all in one box. Its a very nice system.
Thanks for the comment! Will check out those systems..
Was surprised that you didn't include alpha ess as you did a install on one.
Down under there installation of 3x 10 KW on grid backup ad export
Great concise unbiased review Jordan, really helpful. I'm hanging out for more on the Anker Solix X1, any ideas when it's coming or if it's already here? I'd love to see more on that when you can, I know it'll probably cost an arm and a leg but it's going to be a great investment I reckon. 👍
Thanks Jude! SOLIX X1 will be here in September I reckon… stay tuned for that video!
We had a Givenergy AIO fitted all went well, done in a day, app is good, saved us from three power cuts so far and will charge at 6kW however the DNO has restricted discharge to 3kW and also denied my application for more solar PV
Classic DNO
Is that the total inverter discharge limited to 3 kW, or just export to the grid? Surely only the latter impacts the wider distribution network and most good inverters allow this to be limited?
@@TheBadoctopus just export to grid
A really good summary, with some consumer-friendly detail too.
Being about to select a system for installation, this was absolutely the video I had not even hoped to find, and pitched very well.
Only one bit of feedback for what could have been added….I’d have found V2H (present or future) capabilities for these systems super useful too.
(A 9 out of 10, in fact, had this been included !!)
Solid job, all the same.
Tesla Powerwall 3 is available and being installed already, I know of at least one person that's had one installed a couple of weeks back, and I'm sure there are install videos on here in the UK.
Great video as always, I’m thinking on getting a Powerwall 3 to go with our EV and charge at the cheap rate at 7p without the solars. Do you see more people doing this, and is it worth it ?
Love to see a review of the FoxESS systems
Not a system Artisan usually recommend.
@@garyday615 they’re in bed with myenergi. The fox system is worth visiting and as they asked any other brands they should cover.
The other benefit with the SolarEdge is if you have an export limitation, or a lower inverter faceplate rating than your panels will peak at on a sunny day, you can divert that excess into the battery - so if your panels were generating 8.6kW of power and your inverter was only 3.6kW you could be converting 3.6kW to AC and charging the battery up at 5kW. With an AC coupled battery you'd be losing 5kW to heat with an undersized inverter. Game changing for the ever more punitive export limitations being agreed by DNO's
That's the case for almost all hybrid inverters. Giv energy etc.
Great point!
One thing I’ve discovered is that although SolarEdge HD Wave inverters can connect up to 3 SolarEdge batteries, only one of them can be charged from the grid (or PV), the other 2 can only be charged from PV. I was looking to get a second battery added to my system, mainly to allow me to fully run the house in winter using cheaper overnight electricity, but was told I couldn’t grid-charge a second battery.
Cracking video. By far the most useful battery comparison video out there. I had not heard of Sigen other than your intersolar video and had dismissed them. Looks like I’ll be comparing them with GE (I dislike Tesla) - a local installer puts GEs in cupboards for external mounting.
Thanks I’m glad you enjoyed the video
I find my LG Resu Prime 16Kwh & SolarEdge HomeWave inverter perfect. Just a shame it's not supported on the newer HomeWave inverter. It a bit of a micro-manger if you want to min/max it, but it does what we need.
Great video. Despite the key board warriors on here 🙄
Could you clarify the ip rating for the Sigenergy Sigenstor please. (You didn’t mention it at all)
Would you install in an outdoor environment completely unprotected. The manufacturer states ip66, but to protect from rain and direct sunlight.
Slightly off topic but what make are the white units in your lounge? Great video btw :-)
We install sunsynk cost 8-10 tech back up 5-10 qualify 7-10 we also do the odd Ecoflow kit early stuff not good but its getting better Tec back up 6-10
This is a very well balanced and useful video!
Thanks!
Thank you for this video. Very useful. Im looking to install solar. Batteries and to have back up for my home. As i live in a rural location, we do get powercuts. My main concern is that you say these should be installed outside if possible. I live near the cornish Coast and wanted to know if this would be an issue? I have enjoyed your videos as I started watching because of your choice of tooling. I have worked for Hilti for 14 years and find it good to get customers' views on our tooling.
Hi, another fantastic informative video. Just wondered if you have an opinion about the Duracell system, as it seems good value. Thanks
I'd love to hear your take on the two ZnBr batteries from Australia, the plating-flow battery from Redflow and the gel battery from Gelion. Both seem to have the potential for very very longevity but somehow they are not hitting the market for the home owner. if they are reasonably priced, their longevity make them a clear favorite.
My SunSynk batteries are advertised as being 100% depth-of-discharge, but even though the inverter is told to go to 0%, the batteries only go down to 10% and not 0%. I do feel conned as I have less capacity then I paid for... Apart from that, I'm really pleased with my SunSynk 8.8KW system.
8.8kWh, not 8.8kW
kW and kWh are not the same thing and not interchangeable.
Jordan thanks for this, do any of these systems also support an external gas diesel generator for an extended power outage?
Hi! Yes the Sigenergy system has a smart port breaker which you can connect a diesel generator to for longer power outages
Victron Multiplus II (and probably others like Quattro) will do that, and limit power draw from the genny to whatever level it can mange.
CATL aren't just one of the biggest battery manufacturers, they are the biggest, with 37% of world EV and storage battery production capacity. BYD are second with 16%, LG Chem - 15%, Panasonic - 8%, Samsung 5% etc
Your videos have been incredibly insightful for a while range of information. The only thing that would really help average price breakdowns for installs for these as it's really hard to judge how much these systems cost comparatively.
Installation cost is so variable it’s really hard to give guidelines on this without being misleading
I figured this would be the case, I think what I was thinking about is that you're team has incredible experience with systems of various sizes and tech that getting rough ideas would be helping.
Theres quite a few videos on prices for people who install specific systems but there is nobody on TH-cam that has provided data on all these various systems as a whole.
Being able to see various ecosystems and the installations costs associated with them based on size / capacity is difficult to understand.
I'm currently looking to get a solar system but the prices have varied so wildly it becomes so hard to make a decision on what ecosystem to go for and what I might actually need.
I understand the serious amount of variables associated with these installs given each house will be unique so understandably price data is going to be hard to summarize.
Please keep up these comparative videos as it sheds so much light on ecosystems in general and it's a massive help!
Thank you
Wonder if you can take the 9.6 kW 240v NEMA 14-50 output of the Cybertruck bed and hook it up to the 'generator' input of the a battery system? Seems like it would work just like a generator with a L1 & L2 coming from the generator and there is a neutral balancing transformer in the battery system to create the 120v capable input into your backup loads.
I'd like to see a comparison with pylontech as they are ones we've got installed. Also how easy is it to swap out existing batteries? We're using a Solis inverter with PV optimisers.
Great video Jordan! Any reason you didn't cover the system from Enphase?
Yes Enphase would definitely be an interesting comparison esp given it work quite differently overall.
Thanks! We haven’t installed any Enphase batteries yet - maybe soon?
What about a hybrid inverter and a expandable modules like pylontech US5000 ? They are very popular, how do they compare to the systems in this video?
Spot on 👍
I have a solis hybrid 5kw inverter and 10kw of Puredrive batteries and it's very cost effective Vs these other systems and cheaper to buy and install.
I can expand the batteries up to 25kw if needed.
Significantly better value, but not as pretty.
Glad to know my preference is still valid. Thank you Tesla. Interesting to see in 5 years time what will happen with Samsung's solid state batteries with double the energy density. I can see this tech dropping to £100/kWh very quickly. I think most would want 12kW inverter as a minimum, particularly if you are going all electric and can't rely on Gas or solid fuels for hot water. They have to get smaller as these solutions are just too big for many UK dwellings. Shame we can't have solutions which can go in the ground. I could quite easily have one in my driveway then and would be very close to my incoming supply and Solar PV.
Good video but waiting for Sodium Ion based system . Funny thing about the new regulations for fire protection......it is still ok to park a petrol car in the garage...smh
Great video!
Only one critique… might be better to apply a percentage (weighting), to each of the battery’s characteristics to get a better measure of each product. For instance, the battery’s specs are far more important than their looks and ease of installation.
Other than that, all good!!
Great point! Thanks
Whete's Victron in the list? You can have any battery in this system you want. For me it's the best option, specially now with the new dynamic ESS.
Interesting. I have a solax ac coupled battery system with a 5kW inverter "powered" by 10kW of panels 5 east, 5 west with two solax inverters.
A 3.5KW Inverter on the battery wouldn't power my oven (4kW on boost), let alone the microwave and kettle....
Given that I already had a Zappi and Eddi, I was tempted by thee Libbi, but it was expensive amd the inverter not up to the job (3.5kW)
10kWp from ten panels? Which panels can produce 1kWp each?
I prefer those without inverter but one wiht integrated inverter but without the solar attachment. I think though that is a very inefficent way. Sad part is that there aren't that many open inverters that work with these things. I did wonder about HV Pylon Tech? But sadly doesn't do with Fronius.
If you were recommending a fresh install, would you opt for the Tesla or sigenergy if it were largely just overnight charging. It would be for an overnight charge and use during the day with only small 4 panel 2.4kwh system on a house using around 0.8kw per hour ambient. Crazy ambient due to control4 system.
Very useful video however you don’t mention if any/all of these systems do smart charging. I dipped my toe in the battery market 4 to 5 years ago and have smallish Moixa battery which uses time of year and weather forecast to decide level to charge to overnight as it knows when my solar panels will kick in to recharge . So in the middle of summer, with forecast sunny days it may only charge to 40% overnight in cheap rate electricity as it knows there will be energy from the solar panels to power house and recharge battery. Conversely in the winter it will charge to 100% each night due to less daylight hours for panels to click in. This is incredibly useful smart feature but would be good to know if all new battery systems have that as standard?
Needs an update. Givenergy All In One now has a Inverter in as does the Tesla Powerwall. Mind those are the bits that tend to have the earliest failure rate so not sure it is an advance ?
As the battery in AIO is LFP tech is that really going to burst in to flames ?
Yes install/commissioning was terrible but it works very well.
I'm thinking of buying a couple of ecoflow deltas to replace 70% of my energy needs total cost £3k is it worth it??? 😅
I have difficulty believing anyone is giving a truly unbiased opinion and is being truefull when they state that all the other systems out there are rubbish.
Yes, that is complete bollocks. There are some excellent systems out there that do not get a mention in this video. Victron +battery of your choice, is the most obvious one.
I think that it would be helpful to know what the chemistry of the various batteries is. Safety and longevity is obviously very important.
Beware of general claims about working temperature , the amount of power you can get in and out will be much lower at low temps and may not even charge at all below 10 deg C - for my battery ( only one I could get after C19) there manufacturer actually deleted the low temperature charge curves from the manual vs. earlier versions. Batteries outside or in detached garages etc. will be useless for most of the winter.
Very good information. Could you do a similar version regarding panels?
In the next 2 years I'll be looking to upgrade a small off grid system in Portugal to something more substantial and modern world appropriate. The choice of systems locally seems to be far smaller and usually down to installer preference. Are there any videos in your 600 that might begin my offgrid education and who knows what will be available then?
Great and very informative video , thank you!
It would really be helpful if you could also include in your reviews details of where these batteries and made - out of principle would avoid anything Chinese particularly if there is parts and warranty exposure in the future !
Thank you …👍
I think the way to go is convert a good used EV pack. Some totaled Tesla with an intact pack, or similar.
Just added a second Powerwall 2, £6500 installed! Pretty much perfect now👍
Congrats! 🙌
Shame you didn’t wait for the power wall 3, triple string input so handles 3 different solar arrays. Good of east west roofs.
@@davideyres955 couldn't justify changing as already have 10kW solar into triple string Solis inverter! Adding second Powerwall 2 gave me the additional storage we needed plus 10kW max house draw capability 👍
Do you ever expect it to pay for itself - I guess at £6500 you just don’t care?
@@edc1569 Effectively means we will only ever pay 7p a kW for electricity. For most of the year we will be just using stored solar generation. All electric house here, so savings are very significant. Last month's bill was £60, which covered charging two EV's, all heating by ASHP and all cooking/lighting etc. The goal is energy independence 👍
Outstanding and informative video. I plan to move in the next 2 years, so didnt want to put up Solar but found out I can use just the battery bank option and as a Octopus customer, I could use the overnight cheap traffic to top them up. When I move I can get a qualified electrican to unhook it all and re-connect it to the new house. As we all WFH 80% of the time, the electric bill is very high.
Well that is the idea, Does that sound fessiable ?
You can do this for sure, but be aware *I believe* you will need to get DNO approval before installation at your new property if your battery inverter is over 3.68 kW power.
Otherwise the payback from battery without solar is much worse (no "free" energy from your roof), so you will absolutely need a time-based tariff and cheap period to charge up.
Your best money saving will be to replace bulbs, appliances and habits to be more energy efficient firstly.
@@TheBadoctopus Thank you. I had replaced all bulbs when I moved in and updated them again 2 years ago. All appliances are almost A or A++ rating. All devices that can, go into eco or standby mode when not used. I understand about the "Free power" but I cant waste the money till I move into the next house, which I will install Solar and looking as some small Wind turbines for the garden lights, which run the basic vanlife style charging process.
Great work!!! many thanks , very interesting material
Glad you enjoyed it!
What about Fronius then? Have the ecosystem (car charger / solar boiler controller / battery) Newly released Verso variants has battery access so now battery systems cover 3kW to 33kW arrays oversizing 150%DC with ability to charge batterys with over-capacity like solaredge DC battery.
There is a NEWS article on watched in TH-cam - and I don't recall in which
State in AUSTRALIA it was in - however - the news item referred to s group
of homes with solar panels sharing the energy they produced.
I may find the URL when I search through the history - and will post the link
when I find it - providing of course I have not yet deleted that history - as I
often do
Maybe not a question for an installer? Would it be possible to buy an EV and use it as a backup power source, and power it from lets say octopus cheap rate tariff? I qualify for the Motability scheme due to sight loss issues, my partner works 12 round trip miles from home 9-5 for 4 days a week. Car would be sat in drive (batteries outside obviously) I was looking at Hyundai Ionic 5 as preferred vehicle. May thanks in advance T
Good you mention maximum load. It's not just capacity (KWh) but output (KW). You can have the largest capacity in the world but if you can only draw 1KW power then it is pretty much useless for anything except powering lights and your TV. My system has a max sustained load of 5KW which covers most things (washing/cooking etc).
If 1Million homes in UK had a battery which discharged at peak time this could replace the output from about 3 power stations which would be a massive saving in electrical infrastructure.
A massive saving in electrical infrastructure but you are forcing costs on to the consumer.
Do you really think consumers should be forced in to spending thousands of pounds on a battery installation?
Why review GivEnergy with the lack of enthusiasm about the general build quality? Warranties are only as good as the longevity of the company, which is as long as a piece of string!
All I worry about is that the cloud connectivity to the parent company, usually in the PRC, could be lost in an instant if the international relations deteriorate due to external political or economic tensions, dependent on the occupant of the White House.
Exactly. There is not enough emphasis on what is _local_ control and what is _remote_ control. It really does matter. I'm almost certainly going to go with Victron because they are the only people that expose everything locally.
These prices per kWh are slightly misleading and assume are excluding install costs as I haven't found anyone selling a PW3 for £6,493 (£481 x 13.5)? If you are offering at this price I'd snap your hand off!
I'm not sure if the Pytes stackable / modular systems are available in the UK yet, but they are very good quality and very competitively priced.