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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ส.ค. 2024
- The Harley Evolution engine set a precedent for Harley-Davidson and brought a lot of people back to the brand. But a stone cold reliable engine doesn't exactly keep the lights on in the parts and service departments, oil changes don't even make overhead costs. Harley-Davidson engines after the Evolution became more complicated and may even intentionally had built in failure points. But not too worry, today we have a really good warranty on the new engines and you can purchase up to 7 years. So then you get to play the warranty game for the next 7 years or go out on your own.
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What's been you're experience with the Harley-Davidson warranty? Did you purchase the extended warranty?
Have 2 twin cam softails…..never had to use warranty however as we all know The Moco should’ve done a recall on those tensioners lol
Keep up the great work GixxerFoo & keep Living The FUCKING Dream ❗
Safe travels 🙏❣️
💪🇦🇺💪
Buddy bought a 2016 StreetBob in 2020 and was suckered into some kind of 3rd party warranty from dealer that was crazy priced at $600 for two year coverage and required EVERYTHING to be done at the dealer to keep the warranty in good standing... after he got the price for 3 hole oil change he said screw it did it himself for $60ish and now taking his chances.
I currently own a 2012 Road King with the 103. I've owned it since new and it's been totally reliable in my 10 year ownership. I will also add that I kept it bone stock.
I bought the service plan and wheel protection but not extended warranty. Tbh I am actually going to be stoked anyways because then I can go through the engine and tweak it how I want.
In my humble opinion, based on 45 years of riding, when computers were needed to keep the bikes running and meeting emissions standards the bike just isn't the same. Every old bike with a carburetor has a soul, you can have 2 bikes exactly alike and they will start and run just a little bit differently. Harley removed the bike's soul to make room for a computer. That was a sad day
Yeah they've complicated everything to meet emissions, nothing is really rebuildable anymore.
I agree 100%
Engineer in some factory defects? Can you be more specific? I believe the EPA and meeting Federal Emissions standards is the mandated challenge that Manufacturers continually have to meet. With new engineering and manufacturing comes new challenges to overcome. Some new engineering is good, some not so much. It's a constant challenge...
I got my Twin Cam in 2012. It only has 33,120 miles but, I've never needed to use the warranty.
BTW, if you buy a new truck, then do engine, drivetrain, or suspension mods. It voids your warranty.
👌👍👍👍👍
The entire automotive industry has moved from analog fueling and ignition. It's not such a new thing, either. This has been happening over a span of 50+ years. Fuel injection and electronic ignition are "old" tech now. The problem is that some manufacturers have failed to integrate the technology well. The problem isn't the technology itself.
I certainly understand your position though. I've got a mate who turns up to my place regularly on a '73 Guzzi. Sometimes when he pulls into the yard I go and get him a beer while he's parking his bike. Sometimes when he pulls into the yard I get him the plug spanner and a thin flat blade screwdriver first.
I think the eco was harley's best engine of all-time most reliable engine , not speed but being able to Fix your own bike is Priceless .
Except for the cranks being pressed. You can't true them and the tapers wear out.
"Eco" LOL
@@kingkrimson8771 the c is right next to the v. LOL
I bought my first ever Harley a few months ago. By blind luck, rather than careful research ended up being the perfect bike for me, it's a 1996 Dyna Lowrider. Been watching all your content, especially the Evolution specific stuff and followed your recommendation for an Andrew's EV23 cam and Progressive suspension. I love this thing, and your advice has been spot on. Thanks for all you do !
I,ve had my 97 Evo or 16 yrs ( the one in the picture is an 87) and every day i look at her i still love her , ultra realiable .
I just looked at a 97 softail custom today. I want it. The guy is a good friend to. I trust him. 39,000 miles with a few nice upgrades and all the paperwork to prove all parts and service done. He wants 5000$ but it needs new tires and a battery. Should I go for it?
@@simonh5110sure but try talking him down to 4500 if able
@@simonh5110I have a 98 Dyna 12k miles second owner
@@neveragain9380 sweet!
Cant beat the Evos Awesome reliability 👌👍🤘😎🇦🇺🍻💯
Totally agree
In a Harley sales brochure for 2003 it said " any machine not built to last, should not be built". I believe in that slogan for sure but can add "should not be bought either". I think Harleys are still "built to last", (as long as the warranty period) but not as long as they should, and yes it looks intentional.
Harley has not modernized on other things to help the bikes last either, like a starter button that won't engage the starter while the bike is running. Or low oil / high temperature engine shutdown.
I for one am not interested in the neutered M8.
Twin Cam 103 2014 and up is where it's at...
You are correct about evo motors ,upgrade inner can bearing ,change lifters and cam about 35,000 miles ,frequent oil changes .
I have been riding my 64 pan for 45 years however because of my age purchased a 7,000 mile 1999 heritage evo last April ,upgraded inner cam bearing ,and change oil every 2,000 miles .80 CID stock evo goes down the road plenty fast for me .as always thank you panheads forever
👌👍👍👍👍👋
Why do you have to change the oil so frequently on evos ?
@@racex3721 I think he's just being cautious in any vehicle I have if I don't put many miles it's once a year like my car I only drive it in the winter but maybe a thousand miles on it.
@@MoeLarrycurly1 i gotcha just curious because my twin cam recommends an oil change every 5,000 I hit that in less than a year I use Synthetic I picked up recline its supposed to be a good brand.
Oil is cheap engines are expensive .
Good info for new buyers. I have never purchased a new Harley and never will. It is just not the same company that was saved back in the eighties.
If you have a Shovelhead bike, and the engine is falling apart, you can get an aftermarket Shovelhead engine that is a lot more reliable, longer lasting, and doesn't leak oil like the original. Just leave it stock except for the exhaust and air cleaner. It is easy to tune a carbureted engine for a less restrictive exhaust and air cleaner. The exhaust is an absolute necessity if you want your Harley to sound like a Harley. IMO, the EVO was the best engine H-D ever made, and it basically uses a slightly modified Shovelhead bottom end. All but a few were carbureted, and the few that weren't can easily be converted. The really great thing about Shovelheads and Evos is that they CAN be rebuilt over and over again without replacing expensive parts, much like older cat engines. The crank and cam can be reground, the cylinders can be rebored, you can just replace pistons, rings, and bearings, and a few other minor parts, and go another 100,000 miles. These engines can be rebuilt that way 3-4 times.
The Twin Cam is a whole nother thing. Yes, it can be rebuilt, but it will cost a fortune. You will have to use an aftermarket crank, new Timken bearings, a gear drive cam setup, and an aftermarket oil pump. Done right the Twin Cam can be a reliable, long lasting engine, but it will not be cheap. Fortunately S&S makes all the parts you will need to replace, and they are high quality. And now you can buy a stand alone ignition system for them, and parts to convert them to a carburetor. More money, but at least it is possible.
The M8 is a hopeless case. No matter what you do to it, no matter how much money you spend on it, it will never be a real Harley engine. There is no way to get that counterbalancer out of it, so it will always feel like you are riding a Japanese bike. There really isn't any way to save the warranty. Just to make it sound sort of like a Harley, you have to replace the exhaust system. And it runs way too lean from the factory with the stock exhaust system. Putting an aftermarket exhaust on it will destroy the engine. And the Screamin Eagle tuner will not tune it properly. It will still be way too lean. If you use any other brand of tuner to reflash the ECU, it will show up on H-Ds scan tool, and void your warranty. There is also the issue of the narrow band O2 sensors. No tuner made will get it rich enough to avoid serious overheating using those narrow band O2 sensors. The air/fuel mixture will still b around 14.1.1, which is still way too lean. You need to get it down into the 13.1 or even 12.1 range in order to keep from melting the engine down. The ThunderMax system will do that. It completely replaces the stock ECU, and uses wide band O2 sensors. But again, why even bother with the M8? You will never feel like you are riding a Harley.
If you can get an EVO, DO IT. If you are stuck with a Twin Cam, and there are millions of them out there, or so it seems, it can be made reliable if you spend enough money. I would certainly do that before buying an M8, which not only does not even come close to feeling like a Harley, but a new one will cost you even more money, and you will have to void the warranty anyway just to make it sound halfway decent. So to me that completely removes the M8 from consideration. I also recommend keeping the displacement and power stock if you want a reliable engine. If you want speed and power, buy a Hayabusa. The overall design and layout of the Harley engine is great for character and torque, but it is the worst design there is for making big power. For that you want a perfectly balanced, smooth, high revving short stroke inline four.
My twin cam is tuned to 14.1 afr unless I get on it goes to 12.2 I belive idles at 13.8 afr do you think thats to lean ?
You're forgetting one thing...well, actually three things.
Harley, in developing the Evo, finally did what independent engine builders had been doing for years: using Yamabond to seal the cases.
The second thing that they did was to place an order with Cincinnati Milacron for new CAD/CAM milling machines and other machine tools.
The third thing they did was to learn and embrace the Japanese methods of manufacturing and parts sourcing.
Sure, the purists hated seeing Showa suspension parts and Nippondenso electrical parts but guess what? Suddenly the bikes were able to compete with the Japanese on a build quality level, the magazine testers wrote about it, and suddenly a lot of people who never would have previously considered buying a Harley became owners.
Then, they rubber-mounted the Big Twins, once again angering the purists.
Then, they Evo-ized the Sportster. This engine went from a 29,000 mile engine to a 100,000+ mile engine. When they rubber mounted the Sportster in 2004 it was finally the bike it's original designers intended it to be. Evo Sportsters have none of the well-known issues endemic to the Big Twin Evo successors. None.
But the MOCO, like the Japanese, realized that high quality didn't translate into buyers repeating their purchases in a certain amount of time. Problems need to be built in so that buyers will flock to the dealers in the futile hope that the New Model won't have the same problem as the current model.
They usually don't.
They have an entirely different set of problems.
In 2005, online chat rooms were full of people complaining about the new Twin Cams, but none about the Evo Sportsters. I bought a new 2005 1200 Sportster Roadster and 82,000 miles later can describe the quality as being, well, quite Japanese.
I drank the cool aid in 2015, bought a new FLTRX, had the dealer installed an exhaust, breather and the recommended Screaming eagle “race tuner” … had the Dyno run done and the engine response was quite noticeable. The engine developed a valve train noise that summer . The MoCo wouldn’t cover it … said they
Would no longer warranty anything tuned with their “race tuner”. The dealership did cover the problem… I got rid of the bike and never went back. I do run an old twin cam and support the dealership with what I need for it.
My BMW 100 / 719 77 vintage was on the original cam came at around 500,000 miles until it got destroyed by a car. It could also cruise at 125 miles an hour all day according to the owner's manual. I never had the nerve to find out how fast it went but at 5000 RPM it went 100 miles an hour as smooth as silk. My dad always taught me this rhyme Harley-Davidson made of tin, ride them out push them in. Fine Indian made of steel, twist the grip and make her tire squeal.
@Swamp Gas Pilot it has 77 horsepower more than one horsepower per cubic inch. It's all day cruising speed is 6250 on the track with translates to around 125 miles an hour that is still 1250 RPM short of Redline. It is faster than the plane I used to fly. It weighs less than a hard mounted Sportster. I have one of those with 370000 miles on her and she still runs good and with the original engine. Before the accident that destroyed my bike I would challenge Harley guys to race me at 125 miles an hour for titles no one accepted because they knew what the outcome would be.
@@frankmarkovcijr5459 Thanks for your remark. I'll back you up with an '84 R100RS if they would like a 3000mile race.
@Swamp Gas Pilot Harleys only seem to grunt. (Then whine, bitch and moan).
Your daddy's rhyme is just his and his buddies opinion. My dad told it to me exactly opposite while he and I had our Harleys parked trying to get a broke down Indian rider repaired."How stupid you sound depends on where you are at the moment."
@@myrtlelittle4130 HA, that proves it. Harleys are female.
Great video Gixx, I think it's called planned obsolescence. It's a shame that they went that way instead of new and higher quality accessories.
Thank you! You can't really rebuild anything on the new bikes, you have to replace the parts all together. Twin Cam 88 cam plates had replaceable bearings, then Harley went to bushings on the 96 in the cam plates. After that the cam plate pretty much has to be replaced altogether when the bushings wear out.
Geat insight! I've always found it interesting how Harley has managed its manufacturing over the years, and has overcome its shortcomings. I, for one, had not been familiar with the details of it's engine models and designs but come to realize, at least, that the Evo was a motor you could overall feel better about when it came to reliability, simplicity and peace of mind. 3-4 years back I purchased my '93 fxstc with 34k miles on it - I've been more than impressed with what little I've done aside from maintenance. -- And 1340's are fast enough for me! Thanks, again, for a great vid!
Interesting video. Yes, I believe the Evo was the best and most reliable engine Harley made, and I agree with you that doesn't help the service department out. So my question is, why then is Toyota so successful? They claim Toyota is the most reliable brand out there, with Honda hot on their heels. Maybe Harley can learn something?
I love my two Evolutions. I believe you’re right on the button with this video. But to answer the question about Toyota and most Japanese manufacturers. I’m a Yamaha outboard dealer. And they are by far one of the most reliable engines I have ever seen in my life. They push maintenance. Maintenance is key. But they do build them to last. Customers will buy maintenance as long as it’s reasonable and they don’t leave them stranded somewhere.
Oh yeah, Toyota, kind of like the old Studebakers. Run like crap but would do it for 300,000 miles. Love my EVO. Best damn Harley I've ever had.
@@jayhuff239 There isn't a Toyota or Lexus made that "Runs like crap." Class dismissed.
I absolutely love twin cams. My favorite motor harley produced. The 96 ci twin cam is an excellent platform to build on. I love my 103. The 110 did run kinda hot but nothing a decent oil cooler couldn't help with.
I feel the same way I have fxdb07.43.000
You shouldn't have to add an oil cooler on a new bike. Just more proof that the twin cams are not built right. I own a 98 EVO with 85,000 miles on it. Have hardly had to touch a wrench to it because of failures and it has never overheated. Not even in the Arizona desert. Have had thirteen different Harleys starting in 1977 with a shovelhead (pain in the ass). The 98 EVO has been the best motor of them all. By the way, the EVO is a breeze to build on.
Agree!Twin cams are great!
Great video man, and really interesting video. My 96 1340 Evo kicks ass all day everyday and I've always wondered why these more modern Harleys are always needing to be fixed, you hit the nail on the head in this video.
1987 EVO still pumping had since 1989 do the service never let ya down ok.
I've known a lot of guys who have beat the ever living shit out of twin cams and they just keep on ticking... Unfortunately a few of those men are not.... I feel like those engines that have failed were early models. The 103s for example, I have never heard a single complaint
Exaaaaaaaaactly...
love your videos! Your Evo stuff is, like several have said, my favorite content. I have a '96 Wideglide that soothes my soul much better than my '21 Roadking.........two totally different motorcycles. The Roadking is the best handling touring bike I've had (out of 5), with creature comforts great for the long trips. But the Dyna is more fun to ride. It will stay, and the RK will go, should the need arise. I ain't no spring chicken!
I understand they had to use a chain to absorb crank run out but I see absolutely no reason why they had to use a chain on the back of the cam to turn the other.
Even if they would have just had a single chain in the front and one cam driving the other via gear that still would have been waaay better than 2 Chains and having to rip out the pushrods and cam plate to get to the second chain tensioner.
ext warranty Saved me probably thousands! Took the bike in a couple months ago for a 3rd gear slipping on acceleration, he basically said based on my description that it could be one of two things, and one of those things would email them having to crack the case and if so, that would be a time consuming and costly repair. He mentioned the warranty and i was like I did, I do, look me up. and Boom. Went from an ungodly bill to a $50 deductable. All the rest of the work was covered. That was the main reason that I went and pulled the trigger on the stage IV, the bike was already completely tore down (so Labor is free) and it was just the cost of the parts and the tune. Couldnt beat it.
This is why I own 2 Evo's..had twin cams n a M8 which in my opinion was the least reliable motor I've owned with many inherent issues..As long as I ride a Harley..goin to stick with old reliable!!..Ride Safe 😊
I know it's been a year ago but what model twin-cam did you have and what were your issues?
It's funny; I've been looking at 2014 Electra Glides (103 engine) and I see some of these advertised with, in one extreme case, 140,000 miles on it. Not sure what the history is but sounds pretty reliable to me.
My 2nd new HD in 1988, EVO Soft-tail. Luved that bike, put 120,000 on it in 10yrs. Never had the hds off or any hvy work done to it. Sold it to an acquaintance, they're still driving it, 200,000+ miles ! Little to no maintenance/never to a dealership ! Now the new twin-cam, just had it in for the 30,000 service - $1,000+ !!! Would trade it for an evo today.....
I bought a new Super Glide Sport TC back in 2004. Within 4000 miles both tensioners were toast. Fixed under warranty, they were again, toast 3000 miles later. At my own expense, I had gear driven cams fitted. Problem solved. Meanwhile, my mates' Evo just keeps chugging along! The design of the TC cam drive is needlessly complex, and was done on the cheap.
When I ordered my Evolution Softail, you had to wait almost a year to get it. When it was in, you had to purchase the extended warranty or they called the next guy on the list. Kind of like a business strongarm. I have always wondered why Harley just didn't redesign the Evo cases to accept a bigger bore size. S&S, Merch, Sputhe, and Ultima did it successfully. If you are right, we know the answer to that...Harley seems to have fixed what wasn't broken. 🤔
Never heard anything like this, bought a new softtail in '88, availability was slim, never even talked to me about extended warranty. Bike ran FOREVER, few issues.
The Evolution engine:
Was darned close to the Panhead design, but vastly improved engineering-wise along the way, in many areas. Changing/pressing bearings was easy. Just a coil, carb....basic changes polished the finish.
Minuses....brakes could be better, front fork springs, oil and rear shocks. Easy stuff.
Evolution engine:
Reliable; due to KHI manufactured internals. KHI = Kawasaki Heavy Industries.
Showa, (Honda) front forks.
Keihin carburetor - Japanese also.
Great bikes, and a good basic start for tuning. Simply adding an Accel coil, 10mm plug leads and an S&S E Pumper carb and S&S filter, smooths the basic deal out.
Let's face it, any Japanese 600 will show a Harley the way home in handling/or performance, so "tuning" a tractor for performance during general road use is simply stroking your own ego and buring cash.
Buy an Evo, you will not regret it!
Small block Chevy of Harley Davidson .. let it breath , recently sold my TC and picked up a 95 Evo ultra .. no f-ing computer BS, I'm just putting late model stuff on it for the look
That older stuff was a lot more reliable, but it just wasn't the best for business when you can't get them to fail.
I think 95 has electronic ignition.
True .. but being industrious that I am in a pinch shovel inners and a different coil I'm back on the road, I changed out the POS stock ignition already so if that the only thing close to a computer I have to deal with and changed out to a 6 so with a O/D .. I'm good, I traveled this whole country on a 93" shovel head finch built chopper so I'm not afraid of the dark, of course I had a much younger body riding that beast
My evo just went over 113,000 still going strong 1988 ultra classic 85th anniversary addition
ok,mine 2, big miles still pumping.
Still own my first and only Harley. It’s a 1995 fxstsb springer softail. I put a six speed transmission in years ago so I could get the rpm’s down on the highway when riding with friends that had newer more powerful motors. It’s been a great bike and the original paint still looks good. One of the most reliable motorcycles I’ve ever owned.
Good job as always love your take and knowledge on everything Harley. Been riding and wrenching since the 70's stopped getting newer bikes after the EVO. I ride a 1993 FLHS I triked
because my old brain can't deal with all the electronics and fuel injection the new stuff has. You are so right about the EVO being easy to work on I have done every upgrade to her you can.
Keep up the great content and love the EVO stuff.
Right on! Thank you, I appreciate the support! They just don't build this new stuff to be rebuilt over and over anymore. You can "rebuild" a newer motor but you pretty much replace everything but the cases. The cranks can't even be rebuilt anymore, not that you would want to with the pressed setups though.
All the bikes I have are all Evos can't say enough good things about them.
Just like the dude in Pulp Fiction says: Shit takes time... See my All Stock 1985 FXR EVO with over 100.000 Miles on her turns out to be very reliable... but You've gotta treat her right.
You've gotta take the time to warm her up gently, be kind to her, tell her you love her and only after 20 Km's of gentle riding she's all warmed up and then you can ride it like you stole it...
So basically dudes and dudettes... Shit takes time! Give your motor the time she needs to warm up thoroughly and then and only then you can feed her the onions. This tactic has proven to work I'd say with my 1985 EVO with over 100.000 Miles on her and still in one piece, riding like a dream... Don't be that SOB and take that stone cold motor and hit her with your whip, trying to prove that you exist...breaking all kinds of parts in the internal motor... guys and gals it's like I said: riding a Motorcycle is like having a very hot an steamy evening with your partner.... you're not going 100 Miles an hour with each other the first 15 minutes... things gotta lube man... :-)
That's a damn good point, those Evo motors really need to be warmed up thoroughly. Hell any motor if you ask me, operating temperature is a must.
My favorite is when guys fire up their cold bike and rev the shit out of it.
I haven't owned a lot of bikes. My recent bikes have been triumphs. I currently own a triumph trophy. I just started looking for a big bagger possibly a Harley. However, Listening to people talk about how much money they spent on their stock Harley and then how much money they spent getting it tuned to their liking has been a turn off. For the amount of money Harley wants for a stock bike I shouldn't have to sink a few thousand into it again to make it run better. It's really too bad because Harley makes a beautiful motorcycle. I'd rather spend my money on a reliable machine and use whatever extra money I have for road trips.
You don’t NEED to put all that money into your bike to do this or that. Most people don’t dump thousands into their motors to build high performance bikes. Most people do change their contact points, though. Seat, handlebars or grips, foot pegs. You don’t have to do it all at once, either.
i feel all vehicles are "throw away" now days. factories are all about making the cheapest thing they can to sell it as high as they can. the only thing they are concerned about is the product lasting till the warranty is up. at a factory i worked at , one of the engine models doesnt have a drain plug for the oil. when it needs an oil change you are supposed to just throw it away and get a new one. this was 10 years ago so who knows how cheap they are now. pathetic i think. good vid
Thank you! What you said remind me of the lifetime transmission fluid lol. Yeah some new vehicles don't have drain plugs, oil has to be vacuumed out from the top. So you basically end up with accumulations of all kinds of fun stuff in the bottom of the motor.
I don't mind my 103.
I do all my own maintenance, fitted the new Andrews cams and cam bearings, upgraded the suspension etc.
But the Twinkies do have some weak points, twin cam chains, primary drive chain prone to over tensioning itself, the poor substitution of a single row ball bearing on the belt drive side of the rear wheel, and the really bad idea of mounting the swing arm on the back of the gearbox on the Dyna models.
Still love to ride her though, hopefully the never ending rain will stop soon.
Ride safe everyone, 🤠
I have a tc 88 and have not had a problem i bought an 03 used in 06 with 400 miles
Oh say it ain’t so! Just bought a 95 flstn that is an absolute beauty. Cam and bearing already there. Life is good at times.
There's a reason Harley-Davidson got away from that Evo design and not because it was bad, it didn't generate continued business through failure!
This is why I own an Evolution, I had a Twin Cam, sold it before it cost me any money. I would never buy a M-8.
Those new bikes just I hate saying it, they are built to last the warranty. You can't rebuild them without a new crank anymore, there's really nothing serviceable on those new motors.
The m8 is amazing
@@morrisdennis ...until it suddenly isn't...
@@morrisdennis we'll see, maybe you got a good one?
Warranty is useless if the techs are incapable of fixing them. As a service writer I saw many things roll out, If I was the manager I would have replaced every tech at the dealer I worked, they may have had some training, one was even a "Black Patch", not only did I never see him use a torque wrench, he didn't own one, and had junk for tools, my Craftsman set made his look like a table at the flea market. Most everything we worked on came back, or another dealer fixed, and we couldn't do hard part upgrades, or a wide tire kit, no one knew how. I was proud the day I started, but glad the day I left.
Supposedly according to harley the twin cam was tested 2.5 million miles. So you tell me they didn't know those tensioners were junk. That engine was late ( probably about 2 years coming out) because they had numerous overheating issues that they were unable to solve.
THEY EVEN HIRED OUTSIDE HELP TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS.
Called cutting costs, I guess it's perfectly acceptable to the bean counters /shareholders. I can't bring myself to trade my EVO FXDL for a newer way more expensive M8 or twin cam.
I wouldn't trade that bike off for anything, I get the production costs etc but still sad they really only make these bikes to last the warranty period. While you're under warranty they don't let you do much with them either unless it's through their parts.
No plans to give up my 24 yo Evo. Don't ride my twin cam much. If I was in the market for new, it wouldn't be a Harley. Indian, Triumph...maybe.
Hi, I’m in the same situation. I would love a new motorcycle, but I bought a Triumph T 100 Bonneville new in 2007. My Triumph is reliable, oil tight, easy to work on, cheap to insure and PAID OFF. I cannot bear the thought of trading her in.
You can still get all the original parts you need from the manufacturer of the EVO in Japan since 1984.
@@pg981 You can cut that down to only Triumph if you are looking for long-term reliability these days.
(Sent from a Harley rider who tried the Indians too.) Triumph smartened me up.
As a Harley Davidson rider since the 1960s I can tell you I loved all my Harleys, more than 50 of them. Some of them I damn near lived on. I would average 65000 to 95000 miles before selling or trading them in. In my teen I beat them and didn't maintain them and had not so minor issues with them. As I got older going into the 1990s I maintained my bikes , used synthetic oils and rode them like you should , not beat them. It was amazing the enjoyment I got out of my Harleys. The worst experiences were the constant bad mouthing on Harleys by people who owned other type bikes or the idiot that beat his bike and called the bike junk. Yes I've owned Honda and Italian bikes and BSA Tiumph, and knew they were good machines in the right hands. I presently own a twin cam, I like the bike but not the motor, will probably sell it and try to find another Evo to stable with my Indian Vintage with which I have the type love affair I used to have with Harley. That all said I personally feel Harley has gone downhill since the coming of the twin cam motor. Harley has motor issues not bike issues,that to me is sad.
In comparison between the Evo and early 01/02 TC motors, the TC takes it hands down. Tensioner’s, that’s it, replace and go over 100k. Evo’s, weeping base gaskets, front exhaust lifter failures and very weak cases. None of this, would prevent me from getting either engine. I also think a carb’d TC sounds better than an Evo but opinions are subjective.
I love the Evo in my FXR3, but am also very satisfied w my 88"TC too, I had the tensioners upgraded preventively, been a solid motor. I am weary of the M8 stuff- will wait n see.
I agree, I did the tensioner upgrade on my TC 88 at 48,000 miles, at 74,000 miles I opened the cam chest and found little on no wear on the tensioner shoes. Debating now on a new(er) bike, the M8 is not on the list.
The Evo is the most reliable HD engine. Period. Make it breathe and it is a coast to coast 75-80 HP bike that will make you do nothing but general routine maintenance, and also it will make you smile; a lot.
I stopped going to the dealership after my second oil change. Fuck the warranty, their prices are unreasonable.
I'll never let my 93 nostalgia go
I've owned 7 Big Twins over the last 40 years, 3 Shovels, 2 Evos, a '61 Pan and a '38 Knuck. Never should have let the Knuck go! Never bought a bike new. My current ride is a '94 Heritage. It's got the S&S Hot Setup (Superstock heads, pistons, cam, lifters, roller rockers, Super E carb). Also Dyna programmable dual coil ignition and V&H Straightshots. It will run with any TwinCam, and be so much better built and reliable. I'll own it till the day I die!
I like my 83 FXWG. The bottom end of the motor seems to have parts shared with the EVO. At least my old mechanic told me that. May he RIP.
I looked at a new Pan America a few weeks ago. The salesman started it and the damn engine rattled like hell for a few seconds. A new bike dry starting is not very impressive quality. No, I didn't buy it!
Ewww, that's not good. Normal, but not rattling like hell for too long. That takes a toll over the life of the engine, I'm curious to see what anyone says about switching to Amsoil in those new Rev Max motors.
@@GixxerFoo
I think I would recommend Castrol semi or full synthetic. My Suzukis love it!
The evo was the best. Have a shovel, evo and Twinkie. Evo is jss as NDA down the best. Currently touring on an Indian Springfield. 16 model with 60k Miles. So far so good.
You fixed the warpy shelf!
The new one looks much stronger 💪
In theory, the merits of the twin cam design was to straighten up the push rods.
That was one of the intentions of the twin cam, also to spread out that cylinder stud spacing some more.
from nz i have had my evo 30years,thrashed it on low n high its still pumping rear chain screaming eagle electronic kit from 5,0200 revs to 6,0200 ev3 cam drag pipes n its still running good compo test both 110 im staying with evo.
The Evolution 1200 engine does not get the respect it deserves. I blame HD going public for that. Once HD went public, it became about the shares, not the bike. The only HD I will buy is the Sportster with a Evolution 1200 engine. I’m too cheap to buy anything else.
Thanks for this video, I'll just keep my 1992 FatBoy as it runs like new and looks new even after 30 years and 17 years of Sturgis.
I knew a few early evos that had hundreds of thousands of miles, one still had the factory points cover rivets. My 1990 motor blew the head gaskets in a week. I happened to meet Eric Buel in Daytona and asked him about it, he casually said "that's just unmatched cylinders to the cases"end quote. My knowledge is that Harley intentionally puts weak parts because people will pay triple to ride the image. You can take a brand new bike and it'll need an upgrade compensator sprocket and at least a pressure plate straight from the factory
What would unmatched cylinders to cases have to do with head gaskets? The base gaskets seal the cylinders to the cases, the head gaskets seal the heads to the cylinders.
@@markkissel2120 the blow head gasket was bad enough. I assumed everybody knew about the leaking cylinder base gaskets. A couple of aftermarket guys made neat replacement gaskets that didn't help. Since the buell used the motor as part of the frame I wondered what they did to resolve the problem, it was probably about a dollars worth of machine work that they obviously didn't bother doing for some years. Then of course the ball check on the oil pump, same thing
My 09’ Road King has never failed me. Even at some long, bumbler to bumper traffic, getting really hot. A year ago I upgraded to SS cams, oil pump, plate, pushrods and lifters. Now is running better and cooler than ever. Had a 07’ Ultra Classic before that and never an issue also. Go figure.
I was doing work for a dealer ship at the time the twin cam was introduced one of the problems was overall mechanical noise regulations that the chain helped with. The big one is that It takes less skilled mechanics to repair the engines. After 1999 they are like other modern bike engines with pressed together crank shafts that are replaced as a complete unit. Idiot proof upgrade kits with stages to spend on and even more clothes!
I just looked at a 97 softail custom today. I want it. The guy is a good friend to. So I trust him. 39,000 miles with a few nice upgrades and all the paperwork to prove all parts and service done. He wants 5000$ but it needs new tires and a battery. Should I go for it?
That's not a bad price especially with the paper trail and I am assuming a clean bike. If he'd take 4500 cash since it needs tires and a battery I would go for it.
@@GixxerFoo that’s exactly what I was thinking as well. Thanks for the reply!
Hey Gixxer Foo, I'm subscribed and have watched most of your vids. Great and helpful info.
I have an Evo and a Twin Cam, however I also have a Revo, and note that you don't have any supporting vids for these.
Any chance you will add the Revolution to the playlists?
Thanks for the sub! I do have a couple of Vrod videos here th-cam.com/video/4WQZyU8x7pY/w-d-xo.html, th-cam.com/video/3TtIPhIV9Ag/w-d-xo.html.
@@GixxerFoo nice. Will you create a Revolution (V-Rod) playlist?
Interesting that the Max is continuing the Revo fundamentals - 4V heads, 60°, water cooled, ohc etc, and the M8 is a cross over between the TC and Revo.
Harley-Davidson has definitely went down hill and continues to do so year after year in my book. I'd always pick evo and all older engines over anything new. But I took a chance on an 01 heritage twin cam. So far its been a really good bike 10k miles since last October 2021. I just put new tensioners chains cams bearings etc in it as I'm saving up to do complete upgrade. But i think ima keep this bike, I've grown to: I love it actually, but it's Definitely still no Evo!
Reason I'm buying another softail evo. Love the evo engine especially The EVO Softail Heritage Classic!!!
Bought a brand new Dyna TC88 in 2004. Never needed service once during the 50K miles I put on it.
That's really impressive! That tensioner issue wasn't on all bikes, no motors are alike!
It is a difficult job to satisfy the EPA, the customers, the suppliers, the employees, and have profit.
That's very true and it's usually the quality that suffers in some way.
If they want people to come over to the brand they need to stand behind their product.
Excellent video thanks. I bought an 883 Evo sportster new in 1993. Put 108,000 miles on it. Still runs great. Clutch and gaskets was only internal engine repairs. But no,I'd never buy a new Harley.
My 1999 883 Sportster has 370,000 miles on it on the original engine. I changed the oil twice a year I changed the filter every other oil change and that's all I do to the motor. It will probably Outlast me.
Against all advice, my 03 springer, I installed SS gear drive cams. I had too much crank runout, but I turned the back wheel by hand until everything smoothed out. Closed it up and went riding with never a problem. I guess my cams were stronger than the crank. Take a chance. It worked for me
Hey Gixer I think if you're going to buy a brand new Harley best thing to do is ride the damn thing put it through it's paces before the warranty runs out.
Having a Harley is not a ornament in your garage ride hard into the wind.
All the best brother from NZ 🇳🇿
NZ 2.
NZ roads are a good work out for any Harley I had a 16 Slim always worried how hot it ran Sold it and have become a EVO purist! Have 6 of them for reliability and investment Good originals are becoming hard to find ridden and maintained properly they will do big mileage
I can forgive the issues with the twin cam chain tensioners but I cannot forgive the wobbly cranks.
Its called planned obsolescence. Auto industry has been doin it since the 80s.
5he GM squarebody is a good example. The 70s had the np205 transfercase, cast iron case and gear drive. Then in the 80s they used the np208 transfercase, aluminum case and chain drive.
Mrs and I bought a brand new "98 EVO for her and a new "99 TC for me. Ran those bikes to 85,000 miles for me before I sold and upgraded and she still has hers. The TC was far more reliable and less problematic than the EVO. I did put in a Gear drive cam set up @ 15,000 miles on the TC because of all of the failures I was hearing about. That was it. The motor never came apart for any reason. Never even had a rocker cover leak or anything. That bike is still going strong as I sold it to a relative and now has over 100K on it. The EVO had a bunch of problems over the years. I wont bore you with the issues but it was thousands of dollars worth. We always changed the oil in both every 2500 miles.
I now have a '14 TC and a '17 M8 in the stable as well as her '98 EVO. the '14 TC has a stage 1 and the M8 has an S&S oil pump, cam plate, aftermarket cam, billet lifter cuffs, lifters, and inner cam bearings installed as preventative maintenance items. I'm older now and will never get 85,000 miles on either of these to know how they compare with that '99. It will likely go down as the most reliable bike I ever owned including many Japanese bikes I had in the past.
If those chain tensioners go the whole engine can go! I'll never buy another twin cam again!
Which motor do you think is more of a throwaway, the TC or the M8? I ride an Evo so I don't have too much experience with either.
Right now I would say the M8's, they've really got what seems to be a unsolvable sumping issue. There are things that make it better but don't 100% cure the issue.
@@GixxerFoo You're full of crap. Softail M8's don't have sumping problems.
@@MilkMan608 Actually, he’s not and yes they do but ignorance is obviously bliss.
That rotten HD was gold at that moment..
Neglect is the biggest earner. Too many people don't know how to look after their stuff. Had a 95 1340, now have a '99 twin cam, it's better. Couple cam chain shoes every 20k is bargain basement motoring.
That's how I feel about it, it's a pretty small price to pay to save yourself a lot of money.
Oh man just made me laugh so hard. Harley's Evolution motor is so reliable that we have to get a motor that's a piece of crap so we make money on parts and service, that's the new Harley for you. AMF might have had their problems but they never built something deliberately bad just so they can get parts and service. I knew a mechanic at an independent shop who showed me the guts of a twin cam and he said Harley did this just to give us work every 40,000 miles. So true.
They've really made a lot of the parts non serviceable anymore these days, you pretty much have to replace all the big parts all together.
ok,thats right its a scam.
Awesome as always man. After more than 20 years of riding Harley's I'm seriously thinking about getting an indian exactly because of the bullet proof gear drive motor
Haha. 😄 Indian...
Hey, I bought a 77 Shovelhead back in 93. One of the best bikes I have ever had. It had 80,000 miles on it when I bought it.
What were the "best" engineered EVO's, the early or later model engines? Justifications and reasons would be helpful-considering a 1997 FXSTS Heritage (classic white/red version-nicknamed the "Old Boy") Springer as an option to purchase
Post 93 has better engine cases than the early evos. After 99? No more trap door in the transmission. So i prefer 93 to 98.
Have had 3 different EVOs. My 98 has been the best.
Long term planning for EPA compliance is extremely costly. I highly doubt the motor company built their motors for failure. That being said, increasing tolerances and cutting costs always ultimately leads to motor failure somewhere within. As many of us old farts have said, going past the Harley Tax Will lead to premature failures. Want fast, precision handling, and 150 horsepower in budget friendly bike add a Ninja 1000 to your stable.
That's very true, you can build a stout high power Harley but you have to start with top shelf components from the crank up.
@@GixxerFoo Starting with a premium crank, a proven compensator and ultimately a heavy duty transmission your nearly half way to the cost of that Ninja.
I loved my Shovel. And found the EVO was a good, easy motor too. I’m looking at finding an older model to keep for just local rides. My long rides are on my new models. 🏍💨🏍💨
Smart planning. The later models are loaded with German, Austrian, and Japanese parts and technology for reliability.
The great American Machine can only be moved on a hand cart without them. Honda did the EVO.
A shovel, pan, or knuckle is always a fun project for being cool and there's still lots of raw ones around.
EVO, best motor ever. Keep up with the maintenance and they run forever. And also easy to get a lot more "reliable" HP out of them.
Evo is wonderful, especially the aftermarket clones that they engineered the factory weak points out of.
@@GixxerFoo I had bikes with Ultima engines as well. A 127 and 107. Bloody elephant motors! Power all day long. Reliable as. Never had a problem with either. Both with Mik's on them. Stump pullers. Not great fuel economy (approx 32mpg for each) but I didn't buy them to be econo boxes. 🙂
I'm still mounted on a 1972 FLH and a 98 Fatboy the two best motors Harley ever built. I sold both my twin cams and will never own a computerized bike again. I change oil every 2000 miles in my 72 and 3000 in the Evo. I use Harley oil in them because I have for 50 years. My bikes run great because of my maintenance routine.
Altough those chain tensioners on the early Twin-Cams are crap, the worst thing is that they don't say anything about it in the owners manual. Even now, I warn Harley owners riding those older TC's, to have those tensioners checked. Most of them have no clue what i'am talking about. :-)
My 2018 M8 114 is in the shop. Serviced exclusively at HD shop with HD parts. Purchasing dealer would not acknowledge a engine problem existed. Took bike to 2nd dealer and oh yes, "We have a problem Houston". It's under extended warranty and just over 20k mileage. We'll see how this plays out. Work to start in two weeks.
Good Luck !
I love my 1990 softail springer.
Amen! Have a 2001 Indian scout with the 88 inch S&S Evo style motor. After 55K miles I have never touched the drivetrain. Though many other bolts and brackets have vibrated loose or broke off completely over the years, the engine is bullet proof as far as I can tell.
That would be because it's no longer an Indian motor.
@@jayhuff239 #polaris
Extended warranties are for folks with deep pockets. Most new owners and a lot of old owners don't put very many miles on their bikes. I see a whole lot of bikes for sale with what I consider low miles. A two year unlimited mile warranty is all I could ever want. I can't justify paying good money for an extended warranty and then have to follow HD's rules (screaming eagle parts and tunes) for them to honor it. Years ago I had a 2000 RK Police bike. It threw the bottom bearing. HD knew it had a problem with it and had a recall if it failed. HD fixed it and it never gave me any trouble going forward. Extra warranties aren't worth it for me.
On 4th July 2022 got home from a 26 day, 6023 mile, 2.5 qt oil mostly back roads trip through KS NE SD ND MT ID WA OR CA NV UT CO on my 90 Tour Glide Classic FLT now with 70,093 miles. You/everyone should ride Rattlesnake Pass WA, or at least take a long no hwy road trip and stop and smell the beer take scenic roads met people. My bikes are too old for a warranty. Thanks for another good video. I think you are correct concerning designing in a fatal flaw.
I love that your an Evo man Gixxerfoo. Which model have you got?
Evo's are the best engines Harley made and they really stepped back after that motor and put a lot of planned parts replacement in the motors. I run the good old Evo Sportster engine, all mechanical in there.
@@GixxerFoo Nice
Bought '18 Street Glide, waited one year then did Stage 2 upgrade (all S&S parts including 2:1 exhaust), tuned with TTS Mastertune. Has run flawlessly for over three years. Fk the warranty!
Early Evo wasn't all that good,
In the fine print it says Screaming Eagle are all emission tested in 50 states so if you put the Screaming Eagles stuff on your bike and your state does Edition sniffing up your exhaust pipe it will pass where it is if you have some aftermarket parts it will flunk because they say closed course competition only yeah like you're going to take your $30,000 Harley around the dirt track haha sure.
Yeah that's true, kinda ridiculous they have to put that on there but that's the government for you.
With the number of 20 to 30 year old Harleys on the market with 20K to 30K miles on them HD can literally bank on the vast majority of people purchasing brand new bikes to time out on the warranty.
My VTX 1800 went over 80K trouble free miles before I sold it. You shouldn't need to rely on a warranty or service plan to have a reliable 100K mile motorcycle. No HD for me with their "Planned Obsolescence", need to upgrade and Warranty shenanigans.
i dont think cruisers needed more power. yes cruiser are slow compared to sportbike, but theyre not sportbike. too me cruisers are the uncle bill's 62 buick of the motorcycle world.
@GixxerFoo What's your opinion on the current Evo (still offered on the 883 and 48)? Still rock-solid reliability? Or has HD managed to alter things with the current Evo to keep the parts and service departments happy?
I have a 2019 Fat Bob and love the power produced by the M8, but I've seriously thought about buying a new 48 just for the reliability of the Evo. So yeah, I really want to know your opinions on the current Evo. Thanks✌
They quit making evo's in 1999/2000, that's simply a sportster you're referring to.
Another good video. I'm definitely enjoying the '96 Evo I bought last year. Faster and smoother than my Panhead just missing the tank shift.
lol😆
Please give us a video on older solid mount Sportsters, issues, do they overheat etc. My newly purchased from a dealer 1200 Sport 1998 just blew a a head gasket and the dealer is repairing it under the 2 month warranty on 2nd hand bikes, not bad... But as some of start to collect the old gems it would be great to have some guidance on choices and what to look out for or expect. Great channel, tx bro😎👌👍
That's a great idea, I haven't touched on the Sportsters in quite a while and there's quite a bit different between the rigid mounts and the rubber mounts.
I know this video is a little old, but if you're still looking at your comments. WHAT is your recommendation for oil in a 96 Road King that I'm picking up on Friday. No leaks, 17,000 miles, looks almost new and I road it, and it has NO issues.
I'm told that Synthetic is TOO slick (which I used in my 07 'twin cam') and that was newer technology. I use this in all my other (newer) bikes as well. Or, should I use "ground oil". (I say "ground oil", because NO oil came from freaking animals). What say YOU, or anyone that runs an EVO bike.
Okay, so the real issue is not synthetic oil is too slick. My fear would be that a good synthetic oil would clean off the film left behind by conventional oil that may be keeping some leaky gaskets from leaking. Evo motor on a fresh build would do great with a synthetic. I would run a conventional oil or even better a synthetic blend, like Screamin Eagle Syn3. It's a semi synthetic that is classified as a synthetic when they lowered the bar for what a synthetic is. Vtwin semi-synthetic would be my recommendation for a couple oil changes and see what happens, after that you could transition to a synthetic if you wanted to. Here's a video on oil in your bike you might be interested in th-cam.com/video/np4InYigRzI/w-d-xo.html
@@GixxerFoo Thanks so much. Very helpful. Would Syn3 be designed for all 3 areas? 20/50? I'll shut up and watch the video. LOL!
Reasonable content...carry on ...ride more wrench less...carry on..
I personally think the shovelhead is a great engine, even the AMF years.
Most of them have been rebuilt and attention paid to the tolerances (unlike AMF did).
Don't get me wrong. I love my EVOs, too (1991 Springer Softtail, 1992 Electra Glide Ultra Classic)
I just think my 1978 flh bobber is just as reliable as my other two bikes.
And the feel and sound going down the road is awesome, nothing quite like it.
I personally don't want a newer harley, if I can't work on it myself without a computer and mostly basic hand tool's I don't need it.
I wish I could say that about cars and trucks too.
The only plus side with my vehicles is with a $54 dollar Amazon reader I can fix most of my cars, from 1978 to 2006.
All four are GM products.