1982 BMW R65: Charging System Diagnostics -Part 1
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2024
- A great case study on an old BMW motorcycle that can't keep its battery charged. We run some basic tests using the Snap-On Verus oscilloscope and explain in detail how each component of this charging system works.
The final FIX is in Part 2!
Oh my goodness he looks so young. It's been amazing to watch this guy's Journey
This was a fine beginning, Ivan.
I remember this when you first started Ivan. I always knew you would make it here. Watching you and Eric and Kieth is always cool. Look forward to watching you build into a big diagnostic shop.
I learn something every time I watch one of your videos - top class work Ivan.
Your format is the best on TH-cam. Congrats and thank you for all the awesome content. I watch all day every day. Lol. You’ve taught me tons!
Thank you for producing high quality informative training sessions , I've learnt so much, Eric SMA, and Paul Scanner Danner all excellent I've used your you-tube clips to encourage many of my friends to have the confidence to diagnose problems. Always a pleasure to see you guys work.
Be safe
I thought that one with the Hyundai was FANTASTIC! Good thing you came along, even Eric was stumped! One note here. The voltage regulator, be it internal to the Generator (Alternator) or external, it generates a magnetic field from 0 or Zero Hertz to 400 Hz. This was from an AC/Delco training session back in 1988 at the Delco Training Center in Anderson Indiana. At Zero Hz, you will see MAXIMUM current output from the Generator. At 400 Hz, you will see Minimum current output from the Generator. I say Generator because at the training center, the instructors said, "Guys, for YEARS you've called this an Alternator. An Alternator puts out Alternating Current or AC, whereas, a Generator puts out Direct Current or DC!" HMMMMM. He's right! Ford also adopted this years later. Our charging system puts out Direct Current from the Generator! The electronics in our vehicles today do not tolerate AC very well! BUT, we continue to call it an Alternator. No problem, just giving out some info from the Training Center. SOMEWHERE in my garage, I still have the training books for Generators of various types and the "basic" explanation of "When magnetic lines of force cut across an Inductor (wire) a voltage is produced." How that magnetic field is moved, will determine the direction of current flow in the wire. The Left Hand or Right Hand Rule. Now. Add steel fingers, much like interlacing your left and right hand fingers together and when that magnetic field is produced in the Rotor's Coil of Wire, it will create North and South poles as the current to the rotor coil is switched on and off in the coil. When the North and South Poles of the Rotor pass by the Stator windings, the magnetic field induces voltage in the windings with variable intensity and polarity. The Speed of the Rotor causes that. The rest is part of the output stage where the diodes rectify the Sine Wave voltage into Positive and Negative (oh ya, gotta have the ground side working) voltages for the battery and the vehicle loads. Each "Phase" of the Stator's output needs one Positive and one Negative diode. That make six for the 3 Phases. Then, for the feedback to the voltage regulator, that has its own Positive diodes for a total of three. AC/Delco/GM called that part the "Diode Trio." Your right about the Regulator controlling the voltage at 14. It could go from 14.0 to 14.6 and still be safe. Add a Cole Hersee Battery Isolator and that voltage would go up to 15.0 to 15.6. Seen it, installed them also.
If ever you get to see an original Leece Neville Alternator, it had a three coil external "voltage" (and current) Regulator AND an EXTERNAL RECTIFIER! My intros to this charging system was by my Dad at his shop. WOW! Seeing one of these systems come in with a burned rectifier was amazing. They came out when vehicles still had 6 volt systems. I know, I got to work on those also. Later on they were all 12 volts. The three Phase output on that system was 14 Volts AC from Phase to Phase using a voltmeter. I'm sure with a scope it would have shown a higher voltage and the Three Phases. The External Rectifier HAD to be put under the hood where there was a LOT of airflow, mostly in front of the radiator. Sometimes they even needed an electric fan to keep them cool out there! The old 6 volt and of course the 12 volt Externally Rectified systems, could put out up to 100 AMPS. When Leece Neville went to internal rectification, some systems STILL HAD external regulators. The brushes that contacted the "SLIP RINGS" of the Rotor were changeable even on the vehicle if they were easily accessible. Leece Neville was known to have the Three Phase wires accessible by the three bolts that exited the case with insulators to protect them from shorting against the case. Thank you for putting the "basics" of "How It Works!" The old Automotive TV show, FANTOM WORKS actually had a 1947 Fire Truck come in for repairs and when I saw the OLD Leece Neville system, OH the MEMORIES! The Title of the show was, "IF it sprays, it stays!"
Here in UK I've always called a DC generator a dynamo and an AC generator with a rectified output an alternator. Yes they both produce DC but by different methods hence the distinction in the name. Pedantically they are all generators just like "all children are people but not all people are children".
Great video Ivan! This helps me out, I had a Kia Sedona in today with a charging problem that I thought I had figured out but I will have to go back and re diagnosed with the new info! Thanks! Glad to see you put up some videos. Keep up the great work!
Jonathan Milbury Hey Jonathan, I'm glad you found the info helpful! Unfortunately newer vehicles don't have separate charging system components which are as easy to replace as on this old bike. However, the same theory of controlling the alternator output by varying the rotor field still applies!
Hi Ivan, I've been subscribed to Eric O and Ray from Florida and they both kept referring to you. I've been following you for about 4 months now and have really enjoyed your channel. Then randomly I saw the 2 videos you did with Eric O, the first was the bent crankshaft and the next was the one with 2 O2 sensors out. On the first video Eric was encouraging you to start the channel and you were a bit unsure. I'm so glad you did. So I've decided to come back to where you started way back when. What you achieve is wizardry to me but I really enjoy watching your channel and seeing you fix 7 cars in one day whilst on the road. Anyway, just wanted to say hi from Stafford England UK and tell you how much I enjoy your channel and the way you explain everything. Thanks for all the uploads, I've got hours of viewing ahead of me.
Hey Ivan, I came across your channel a few days ago & first watched you get the old Russian car up and running again after 20 years of been stuck in a garage!
Great vids & this one showing how the Bridge Rectifier and regulator work is excellent & makes the operation easy to understand. I teach at Unitec in Auckland NZ and I'll be teaching alternators & charging systems in a few weeks. I'll be sure to add links to these videos for my students to watch.
I too have a TH-cam channel, though it gets nothing like the views you do, though that wasn't the aim of my channel, it was done more for my current and future students to use as a resource.
Anyway, keep up the good work :-)
Cheers
Andy
Thanks for the comment Andy, I'm honored to be part of your curriculum! Say hi to everyone in NZ!
motoYam82
Sure will :-) Thanks for the reply. If I ever make it over to your part of the World I'll be sure to call in with a cold beer :-)
Enjoyed watching you and Eric from SMA diagnose that Hyundai Tucson. Glad to see you posting vids. Hope you continue, I love these more in-depth type videos.
He Ivan, For some reason this video popped up on my home page. This goes back to the beginning of your TH-cam channel. I was watching you check the charging system on your motorcycle. Nice thorough job of diagnosis. The only other test I would have done is check the lighting coil output. Ya just need to unplug the voltage regulator and probe each of the legs of the lighting coil to ground. On some I’ve seen over 14 volts each leg or more when the engine rpm is increased. An easy test to prove the lighting coil is good. The voltage increases when the engine rpms are increased.
I really admire you and how nice and happy and of good will you are. You seem to be in such good mood all the time !! Great Job !
Nice Healy 3000. I helped a friend get one running that had sat for 15 years.
I love your videos, just filling in the one's I've not seen before.
Hi Ivan I just found ur channel a week ago had sum days off had a little PHAD marathon just came across this vid,thx for sharing the knowledge,keep it up sir
Ivan, after watching tons of your videos, I decided to scroll down to the number one. Lol
A very nice video as well!!!👍🏼
Ah the original PHAD 2-part special! Good times :)
Great explanation as to how an alternator work. On my old Yamaha it had a magneto to charge the battery, and on our Seadoo jet boat, it also uses a magneto to charge the battery.
Nice diagnostics and theory Ivan on the charging system. Keep up the good work!
stuzman52 Thanks a lot, Terry! Yup that's the way an engineer's brain operates: scientific process, hard evidence and minimal guesswork :) I will check out your vids too; the GM waste spark series looks very interesting!
motoYam82 Thanks Ivan for the feedback. I'm working with an electrical engineer for the next six months who is right out of college. I tell him that an engineer is nothing but a problem solver who works with a lot of details in new designs for a project. If you don't find the details in the beginning of a project, not to worry. The details will find you at the end and you don't even have to go looking for them. Anyway, sure, check out the videos and let me know what you think. Also, wishing you a lot of success on your channel and hope it really grows. Take care Ivan....
Excellent vid Ivan, I'm a big fan of thorough troubleshooting, not a shotgun in sight lol....found you through the joint video with Eric/SMA....I predict a lot of subscribers coming your way soon and you deserve it bud....
Very good explaining! If i didn't know anything about electronics before, i would now! 🙂👍
Very illuminating! Thanks for the lesson!
The BMW has a lighting coil as well in the charging system. If it fails the charging system will burnout the rectifier or stator.
You can also burn one out just by jump starting one with a car.
Congrats on the first video on your channel. you deserve a shout out by South Main Auto Repair ... and my god that Austin is a beauty
Thank you. Symptom of a Old Yamaha it would run for 10-20 mins before it would discharge the battery. The brushes in the stator had a wear line on them and was 100 thousand b4 the wear line. I surmmised (guessed) that when the brushes heated up it could not hold spring retention on brushes and would discharge the battery. Measured the brushes with a vernier to make own brushes and on the road again. Oh, this was b4 I was versed with a multi-meter.
I had a BMW F650... Reliable machines, these! Pity there was no OEM support for these vehicles in India though
Right on
I learned a lot
Thank you
Beautiful country....
Gorgeous wife mate !! nice house too , caught you taking car of one of your on its last legs vehicles .
Good stuff. At this stage it could also be a diode or alternator winding problem. The most likely fault is in the reg but I would check each diode just in case there is a second fault.
I like the business card Ivan very nice on that!
Sehr schön erklärt. DANKE schön!
Nice spread!
Awesome ,lots of great info 👍
Hi ivan, wanted to charge my 100 rs... after long barnpause...and i touched shortly my positive to the frame...small spark...and i have no lights anymore on dash... could there be a fuse blown? Where should i start looking / measuring with voltmeter? Only 2 fuses in the headlight are ok
Bikes from 1980 through the mid-80s had very lean carburetion and fixed main and needle jets. You couldn't tune the carburetors per regulations. So they were usually very cold blooded.
Thx for the vid, very eduacational! Just in case you see this I thought I had the same problem (but not you measuring equipment or skill). So I changed the regulator. Battery is also new. Charging voltage is now fine at 13.5-14V at reasonable revs (it wasnt before the regulator change). Charging lamp goes off too. Still the battery drains after some days. My guess is that current is too low to charge. Any chance you could recommend what to check/replace next?
(there is nothing that leaks current when bike is off as I have a main switch)
awesome video. thanks for posting!
Good video, thanks... bob the belgian...forgot to mention. My 100 rs is from 1979.thx
Funny, had the same issue but the problem was completely different. My model had an mechanical clock which had some kind of malfunction, like when it got wet by morning dew or something like that it drew too much current and emptied the way it battery.
We had it like 4 times in a shop but they could not figure out where the issue was.
Finally I got annoyed with the clock on the dashboard which always showed the wrong time and disconnected it and the issue was gone 😁
Btw we call them Gummikuh here. Greetings from Germany 😙 🎶
Hah excellent story 😁
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics best part of the bike: First time I tried to ride it after I bought it, I tried to kickstart it, because the battery was low and I accidentally hit the carburetor with the tip of my boot and it just dropped on the floor. 🤣
The screw holding it on was rusty and someone haven't had used enough force to get it on. But I was just laying on the floor laughing 😂
it looks same system used in cars of 80 s and 90s. could we take regulator from old alternator an fix in this bike
9 years on June 5th! It's coming up soon!
If you measure the fieldcoil it should drop much more than the battery depending of the resistors built in to the regulator, honda cb750f has a fieldcoil with 7.2 ohm and a resistor in the regulator of 10 ohm so that the field voltage drops not to much when the regulator opens at 14,5V, then fieldcoil would have about 6,1V because of the 10 ohm resistors (10 + 7.2 ohm makes 14.5V÷17.2ohm=0.84A so 0.84Ax10ohm= 8.4V so 14.5-8.4=6.1V with the scope between 14,5 and 6,1V dancing and the battery 14,5 - 13,5V.
I do not work with a scope but looking at the electric scheme of the honda cb750f this are the values I think.
Good video...
Had the same book, but lent it out and never had it back... id like to follow the current from the battery all the way to check where my power is blocked towards the lights on “ dashboard”.’’... i know my starter is bad....could this block the current? Thx...i look yr videos entirely first, didnt have the time, but i will... is there a way i can find diagram of my rs 100 on internet? Thx!
Bmw r65 1987 problem in light system, position light, low beam, dash light and stop light not working.
Bmw r65 1987 monolever
Hi, dear biker community. I’m restoring my bike and I need your help.
I’ve checked and replaced all the 6 boxes that work perfectly, in addition to having changed the 2 fuses under the seat and checked all the wires for possible breaks or disconnections.
Everything was working perfectly until I mistakenly put together pin 3 and 12 main wire harness where the instrument panel connects (when trying to install a new digital dash).
Since that time the position light, low beam, dash light, stop light and back stop light don’t work in ignition position 1.
In ignition position number 2, the turn signals, high and low beams work if I activate the command and the stop light if I press the brake, however the dashboard does not illuminate, neither do I’ve position lights, stop light.
Is there any other fuses or what could have been damaged when connecting those pins (both pins have 12v voltage)? Please if anyone knows what to do I would be very grateful with your help.
ivans first video :) nice one too
2005 Ram, Cummins,3500, AT. Radio circuit causes parasitic drain. Radio, CD have 5 Amp fuses. What all does the 20 Amp fuse circuit feed? I will build new Circuit.
Good video
great vid keep im coming
Ivan it's called the oersted right hand rule 💟👍
Mine had a pulsed relay on the regulator board. Wire from top of the coil to the circuit board had a cracked solder joint causing very intermittent trouble of zero charger output. Don't laugh TOO hard, but I finally spotted it by running it at night in the garage in total darkness while watching. The blue arc at the joint was then obvious.
John, that is actually a really neat diagnosis!
i just spent best part of a good riding sunday mucking about charging electricks. rotor, diode board, regulator.........in the end check all your wire conections first.
yes i do have the original harness
Nice
do you take any work?
I have a couple of bike that I need to be rewire
Yes I could do that for you. Send me a PM with all the details on the bikes and location.
motoYam82 well here is my cell 703-361-2963 send me a text with your info I basically have 3 bikes i need work on 1981 BMW R100 1982 Yamaha Virago 920 and I have a 1969 BSA Thunderbolt 650A these bike has been all transform in a cafe racer by me i just need to wire them back
Oh I thought they were stock bikes that needed wiring repairs...so you mean wire them up from scratch or do you have the original harness? Wiring from scratch could easily cost more than the entire bike :/
Nice card Ivan :D
is that how the field looks all year round
first video, a long way
Since you diag a prob wit the voltage reg you oughta do a effing autopsy on the regulatorio. Verdat?
I bet those horses cost more to insure and fuel than all those cars?
Depends on the type of horse and how much land you got :)
Wow a Windjammer faring, that is a collector item now. Place that made them burnt to the ground.
u lost me how does current flow back from ground . could u explain that more . how would it flow back through the diodes
+master tech cody Negative generated voltage will cause current to flow from ground.
So what is inside that regulator ?
In the old mechanical type there is basically a relay that turns off and on really fast (like when you watch it with the cover off it is just a blur). There's a photo of the inside of a mechanical one on this page and also an explanation of how it works:
motorcyclemd.com/how-to-fully-troubleshoot-your-motorcycles-charging-system/
disconnect alternator see if bat remains charged
are you an engineer?
Ivan..i would very much like to see you working on the Austin Healey 3000.a true classic British sports car...;-)
+LZDEN Hey you know what? I might have some footage in the archives for you by special request!
Ivan..that would be just great my friend..i have had a love affair with the AH-3000 for many years,never owned or drove one..but been up next to them..i just love the AH-3000.i look forward to your videos my friend..and thank you..;-)
You made this job a lot harder than you had to. With all airheads check brushes first, voltage regulator 2nd, all cables and connections 3rd, and rotor last...rarely something with diode board. A 10 minute job, tops.
Ivan's oldest video on TH-cam!
read my comment read it please lol what if you set up a virtual diagnostics like put a link to buy a obd bluetooth that we can link with you and diagnose cars atleast give an idea of what the issue is since new cars are computerized ps ill be the first to buy
your Veris is worth 20 times as much as your van LOL
+deepsquat600 Hey now! Actually I have to agree with you there haha
Nice kid that may know his technical stuff , but week at presentation, needs practice .