thats the one i tuned i for - to see which way the seals on the piston go. it's like its top secret. no one seems to show it - and im afraid its critical.
Wow deeremeyer1 must be a retired engiqueer. That’s some sweet parts. I’ve always hated putting those forward drums together with the slop. It seems like only half of them are that way. Where do you get the steel spacers under the snap rings. Hate that plastic junk.
max fore, we've been using or own stash of steal spacer rings up to this point. I agree with you about the later plastic spacer rings. We often find them broken or melted. You can find the steal spacer ring in the earlier 727's... about '70 and back I believe. To my knowledge no one is reproducing this piece yet....
@@johnsaum1260 do you build a lot of torqueflite transmissions? I've never once seen a steel spacer ring failed in 20 years. I've seen plastic rings melted and broken.
Great Video! Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience, very much appreciated. Can you recommend a manufacturer or two of a reverse valve body and trans brake that you like? A guy on a forum is selling a new Cope billet brake setup for a decent price. Do you like these? Thanks and keep the videos coming if you can - good stuff!
wheelspin1000 thank you. Cope has done a lot of R&D on his valve bodies and is right up there with A&A in terms of quality. His billet brakes work very well from what I hear. I've been selling and installing A&A valve bodies and trans-brake valve bodies for almost 20 years. You can't go wrong with either one. If you want to discuss other manufacturers valve bodies and why I wouldn't recommend most of them, give me a call and we can discuss in detail.
@@andrewsracingtrans got it thanks👍 I'll have to call an order from them a vendor or you if you have them in stock. Doing 727 on 1970 Dodge Monaco and it has 58k but has play like in your video but less. So I'll check but I'm thinking .50 would do it along with 74 up Belleville spring. Do you have them in stock?
Can anyone give me a parts list to build a 727 backing a 360/408 set to rev limit at 5,500RPM. Going into a Ramcharger. Will be fed by a Carter 625 AFB. Good TQ cam and looking for 300 ish HP. Can anyone point me in the right direction for solid off road 727 build ups?
727 in stock form can hold a good bit of power. I'd do a standard rebuild kit with basic yellow frictions, or red racing clutches. A good shift kit, or high pressure automatic shift valve body, good servos, and a deep pan to help with cooling.
I hope you can help me with one very important piece I can't find anywhere...the pin shaft that goes through the Govenor on my 1970 727. Production date for the car is 9/69. The governor was dismantled and the e clip broke on one side and pin shaft that e clips through Govenor looks worn on moddle...would you have a spare good pin and e clips or whole Govenor? Ready to purchase tomorrow asap. Plz let me know thank you 😇
I've done a LOT of powershift transmission work in agricultural and construction machines (predominantly JD farm tractors with 2-speed powershift capability along with a "manual" transmission all the way up to 19-speed full powershifts) and clutch packs are used in PTO clutches and differential locks and various other locations and even inboard planetary disk brakes are pretty much "clutch packs" and I've played with a few GM TH350s and learned Allisons (the "real" ones in medium-duty trucks rather than the light-truck GM version in light trucks) back in tech school. And I'm fairly familiar at least "externally" with TorqueFlites and their many "features" that make them super-expensive and difficult to "rebuild" to factory specs since they have many "hard parts" that wear out along with the friction materials. And most of the JD stuff I've worked on uses Belleville springs or "washers" as some manuals/mechanics/manufacturers refer to them. What I've never seen is a Belleville spring-released clutch pack where the Belleville washer(s) don't put at least some "preload" on the snap-ring during assembly. Unless there were "hard parts" worn beyond their "serviceable" limit and that's usually post-catastrophic failure when friction material has come off the disks due to improper fluid and/or service/maintenance and over-travel of the piston through countless cycles has weakened the Belleville spring(s) to the point they no longer have tension. I can't picture a scenario where that kind of situation could proceed to the point of the Belleville spring "inverting" since the piston pretty much has to travel so far out of the drum that it's going to dump oil pressure long before it gets to that point. Not to mention the Belleville spring is a RETURN SPRING to force the piston back into the drum when application oil is "spilled". The disks and plates in the clutch pack are the "stop" for the piston when it's being forced out by pressurized oil in the drum. And excessive endplay is always the result of "hard parts" worn and "sloppy" rather than an aluminum piston that does nothing but convert hydraulic oil pressure to mechanical load on the clutch pack disks, plates and drum while overcoming Belleville spring "tension". So installing a thicker piston - billet or not and with "billet" really meaning NOTHING since aluminum "billets" are CAST just like all metal "stock" is CAST while FORGINGS are made from cast "billets" mechanically "beaten" into rough shape which retains the grains structure and most "billet parts" are WEAKER than forged and even "cast" OEM parts or the OEM parts are WEAKER for a REASON - to take up "slop" in an assembly of "hard parts" is a "band-aid fix" at best and it should be entirely unnecessary with serviceable OEM "hard" parts - new or used - assembled properly. The aluminum piston - billet or not - is not a "fix" for worn-out "hard parts" and the extra material is just a "spacer" to take up that excessive endplay that would result if the exact same OEM "hard parts" which are worn out and no longer serviceable because of the excessive "slop" they have when assembled weren't "fixed" with that "spacer" installed in the form of a thicker piston. And if the "late" Belleville spring is used - a spring that came on the scene apparently in 1990 when Chrysler turned the venerable but already out-dated when brand-new (Chrysler was about 14 years behind GM and several years behind Ford introducing automatic transmissions and GM came out with an entirely new compound planetary TurboHydramatic transmission "family" as soon as automatics went "mainstream" enough to be used in even its "cheap" Chevrolet passenger cars and was the first manufacturer by a LONG WAYS to put automatics in light-duty trucks while Chrysler and Ford stayed with dual-band, single-planetary light-duty automatics) TorqueFlite into a "modern" OD automatic and started putting those "modern" OD automatic behind Cummins diesel engines in light-duty trucks. Diesels run slow and produce lots of torque at low speeds and to "keep up with" Ford and GM with their "high-speed" V8 diesels AND big-block gasoline engines while offering an OD automatic in heavy, high-load vehicles with high-torque/low-rpm engines and relatively high axle gears ('89 and '90 Dodge Cummins/auto trucks had to have 3.08s to get over 60-65 mph with no OD and "late" 1st-gen Dodge pickups with OD autos have 3.54 gears because they have no lockup converter, 3.73 gears are GM only and 4.10s were out of the question because 4wd pickups with gear-drive transfer cases usually have a slightly faster front axle ratio (4.10 front vs. 4.11 rear in GMs made possible because GM makes its own rear axles and used Dana front axles and could adjust its rear-axle ratio accordingly for example) and Dana 60 fronts were geared the same as Dana 70 rears so no "speed differential" was possible and the "high" 4wd low-range ratio (about 1.90-something to 1 instead of at least 2:1) of NP205 transfer cases all made 4.10s a no-go for Dodge so the transmission had to be "beefed up" to compensate. The actual clutch oil application pressure in a clutch pack is really determined by the STRENGTH OF THE SPRING(S) THE PRESSURE HAS TO OVERCOME as well as piston area rather than just "line pressure" and the difference between the oil pressure required to compress the spring and "line pressure" multiplied by the piston area is how much "clutch pack oil pressure" is available to press the disks and plates together. And the "late" spring is actually WEAKER than the "early" spring because its "fingers" are longer so less pressure is needed to "compress" it. That change was made to allow lower pump speeds and line pressures to apply the forward clutch more quickly and reduce slippage during application so major internal mechanic changes like increased pump size and capacity to produce more flow at a given engine speed weren't necessary for the LOW-VOLUME Cummins diesel transmissions alone. The V-10s are often mentioned as being part of the reason for the "upgrades" to Dodge automatic transmissions but they didn't come along until '94 long after the many "issues" with Chrysler TorqueFlites behind diesel engines were well-known. Loose torque-converters mean(t) that diesel engines rapidly accelerate to high enough engine speeds even under high loads to spin the pump fast enough to provide "sufficient" oil flow to apply the forward clutch and forward band with sufficient force to handle "stock" torque and specified GVWR loads when everything is in perfect condition and the trans is warmed up (TorqueFlites HATE cold weather and cold oil because of the whole bands and servos thing) AND when manually "locked" into 1st gear and with proper band adjustment maximizing holding power. But as soon as things start getting worn and/or loads get "heavier" than stock specifications and filters are somewhat plugged (another TorqueFlite "feature" is they continually make metal but deposit it in areas invisible to the eye during normal trans service) and the oil is either "hot" or "cold" even the diesel "upgrades" aren't enough to prevent slippage and heating and heat is the biggest killer of automatic transmissions period. And since diesel engine fuel injection nozzles and unit injectors over time experience what is known as "nozzle growth" as the tip orifices erode and get larger and mechanical injection pumps and nozzles have springs that "load" the delivery valves in the pump and nozzles to meter and time fuel delivery precisely that weaken over time so it takes less fuel pressure to "pop" them and fuel delivery is increased and injection timing is "advanced" by that wear/weakening which results in more torque as the engine wears and "breaks-in", eventually even a 100% stock engine in a "perfectly" maintained/operated/serviced mechanically-injected Dodge Cummins truck "overloads" the stock transmission or at least subjects it to more transmission-slippage-creating torque as time goes on. Transmission pump wear and increased leakage and travel of clutch pack and band servo pistons decreases the amount of oil flow (pressure results from flow and restriction) and pressure available and shifts take longer and clamping force of servos/bands is reduced as the bands are "adjusted" to make up for wear. Adjusting bands puts the pistons back in their "normal" positions in the case but that's where the majority of wear in the case servo piston bores is and where leakage is the highest and that reduces torque capacity and "holding power" of the bands and clutch packs even further. And of course that "unique" and highly abrasive (compared to other ATFs) ATF+4 Chrysler TorqueFlite transmissions require to keep bands/drums "deglazed" and to keep seals and friction materials "sharp" and "fresh" to minimize leakage and slippage takes its toll on HARD PARTS that rely on the ATF for LUBRICATION. The abrasives actually accelerate wear and when those little particles get between splines in drums and on shafts and other tight-clearance areas and start wearing the material away the increased clearances lead to more wear and tear and pieces rattling around on and in each other which creates larger clearances for more of that abrasive fluid to flow into and through and the final result is that a Chrysler TorqueFlite is "good" until it fails and then its usually "junk' IF ITS BEEN OPERATED AND MAINTAINED AND SERVICED PROPERLY AND HAS A NICE "LONG" SERVICE LIFE. One that's ABUSED AND NEGLECTED will need rebuilt so early in the vehicle's life under WARRANTY a new transmission will be installed OR the trans will be rebuilt by the dealer with new OEM hard parts with the "core" trans or damaged parts going back to the factory under warranty for inspection/analysis or will be destroyed to prevent reuse. And Chrysler went FWD back in the late 80s so "core" trannies and "serviceable" hard parts are HARD TO FIND USED AND "CHEAP".
I'm well aware of the differences between CAST, FORGED and BILLET. You can choose to use a cast piston and think it's better, but the reality is that a part CNC machined out of a "billet of aluminum" is superior to one that is CAST in terms of tolerance. Chrysler's machining practices (or lack thereof) were horrible to say the least. This isn't a case of "worn out hard parts" as you say. You could get the parts brand new from Chrysler and still have the exact amount of play in the forward clutch assembly. THIS IS BECAUSE OF CHRYSLER'S LOOSE MACHINING TOLERANCES--NOT WORN OUT HARD PARTS. This is not a band-aid fix as you say, this is the fix for the poor job that was done in manufacturing these transmissions. It is a real world problem, and not something I decided to make-up and do a video on. This is a very common failure on drag race torqueflite's that are built with STOCK or OEM parts. You might also want to get more familiar with Chrysler torqueflites internally instead of externally (your words) before you diarrhea out of your mouth about something you have very little experience, and working knowledge of. AGAIN IN CASE YOU MISSED IT--I'VE BEEN DOING THIS A LONG TIME. I know what works and what doesn't. By the way, ATF+4 is fine and doesn't wear out hard parts like you say. Chrysler starting using it to eliminate torque converter lockup shudder.
4 friction a 3 steels were in mine but the annoying part is 4 new friction and 3 new steels make it impossible to to get the flat snapring in because the stack is too thick . ive taken it apart and tried putting it back together so many times already thinking somethings wasnt seated right but cant figure it out . not sure if the kit i got sent me too thick of steels or what . anyone have any idea what the issue could be?
@@andrewsracingtrans Thank you for the reply . I dont have access to a micrometer but comparing the new steels to the old ones there is quite a visual difference in thickness so i think the steels are my issue . i might just use the old steels , they dont appear to be warped but they need a clean lol .
"Rated to 1200 horsepower". Invariably when you start hearing powertrain components and parts referred to as being "rated to X horsepower" the manufacturer or shop/mechanic performing the work involved in installing them is either in CTA (Cover Their Ass) mode and/or isn't too "educated" on powertrain components and parts. Transmissions in particular are always rated for INPUT TORQUE CAPACITY because "horsepower" means nothing. Horsepower is the RATE AT WHICH WORK CAN BE PERFORMED or has been performed and its calculated from torque and rotation speed. And excess torque "felt" by a transmission is ALWAYS the result of vehicle modifications and/or improper operation/service such as loads too large and heavy for the vehicle's GVWR and/or not adhering to the manufacturer's recommended service schedule and procedures including periodic "full service" including band adjustments. Chrysler TorqueFlite "family" transmissions are "tough" because they have large fluid capacities, two bands in place of high-load clutch "packs", low rotating mass and reduced internal complexity and lubrication needs because of those bands and require "special" automatic transmission fluid that is "abrasive" compared to Dexron-Mercon with the "abrasive" qualities needed in order to prevent band/drum slippage/glazing. The band engagement servos also take a fraction of the fluid to "fill" as a clutch pack would, continuous and designed-in leakage clutch packs have to aid in "spilling" them quickly during disengagment and to keep them supplied with cooled and filtered fluid is eliminated when bands and servos replace clutch packs and that "abrasive" fluid helps keep all friction surfaces rough enough to "bite" even with lower-than-normal fluid levels and higher than normal fluid temps from excessive loads and "stall/near-stall" torque converter operation for extended periods with the resulting low cooler flows, normal wear of seals and the "hard" parts they seal against and the resulting leakage and other "automatic transmission killers" much more "modern" and "complex" and BETTER transmission designs have lower tolerance for when THEY'RE improperly operated/serviced. And since Chrysler stopped making RWD passenger cars and SUVs about the same time other manufacturers began offering OD automatics with lockup torque converters and Chrysler didn't offer lock-up converters on A518/A618 Cummins turbodiesel pickups and waited until the "2nd Generation" Cummins diesel pickups with inline injection pumps with aneiroid fuel delivery control and chain-drive New Venture "low-geared" transfer cases and limited-slip rear differentials in the Dana 70/80 axles were available to put a lockup converter in front of its automatic transmissions and a body design compatible with auxiliary transmission coolers and with much better cooling package overall capacity in addition to the "fluid to water" coolers on the Cummins diesels was standard, few Chrysler TorqueFlites were subjected to day in and day out, high-load and low-speed operation sufficient to wear one out or overheat it within the powertrain warranty period. Dodge also switched from its famous 7/70 powertrain warranty "standard" to an optional 3-year/36,000-mile "bumper to bumper" warranty with a 100,000-mile engine warranty on Cummins trucks. And those trucks for several years were only purchased by older truck owners who could afford them and appreciate the service life potential and who intended to keep the trucks a long time and were very good about performing required maintenance. And since they were usually replacing gas-burner pickups or GM/Ford indirect-injection low-HP diesels with them and the 1st-gen Cummins trucks were "tractors" by comparison, even few of THOSE got really worked hard. But since there was no OD auto until '91 and prior to that automatic-equipped Cummins trucks had to have 3.08 differential gears to achieve any kind of "highway speed" with their 2500-rpm high idle speed, those early 1st-gen Cummins/auto trucks that DID get worked hard with those "1/2-ton" gears smoked Torque-Flites very easily and before long Dodge had to come out with an "auxiliary" transmission cooler with a large cooler and a big electric fan mounted back along the frame rail of the pickup because there was no room for one up front and half the front clip would have had to be disassembled to install it anyway. 160 hp and 400 lb.-ft. of torque was very "impressive" but in front of a slushbox 727 with 3.08 gears in a 3/4-ton 4wd pickup with 16" tires 33" in diameter and with only 2500 engine rpm and MAYBE 20 psi of boost to play with (tiny turbos and rotary injection pumps helped prevent even more transmission issues) and gas-burner transmission valvebody calibrations suitable for a 318-powered 1/2-ton along with a torque converter to match, high-load pulling over and above the GVWR lunched them BEFORE they reached the first recommended transmission service at 30,000 miles. My grandpa's '90 smoked a couple transmissions on Dodge's dime pulling a 24-foot "bull package" steel stock trailer with 48-52 head of fat hogs just getting up one pretty long and steep and curvy hill after leaving the farm in the 2 miles to the highway. Of course the alternative was the ALSO too-weak Getrag 360 5-speed manual that came along when the OD autos did. A few early 1st-gen Dodge Cummins trucks have 4-speeds but not many. Kinda hard to sell a 4-speed along with a $5,000 optional engine and in a $25,000 "heavy-duty" regular cab 4wd pickup with power windows and locks, carpet, cloth seat, etc. Eventually they replaced the tranny and put in the big auxiliary trans cooler but the only thing that saved the old '90 from a lifetime of bi-annual transmission overhauls was Grandpa buying a '98 2500 Extended Cab shortbox Cummins with a 5-speed. He still has both trucks and of course like pretty much all hard-worked NV4500s in Cummins Dodges that trans had the OD gear "issue" although his did run over 200,000 miles before that happened. Mainly because the opportunities to get into 5th gear and "walk the dog" with a stock engine and with the kind of loads it has pulled along with an old man's "driving style" and a lifetime spent driving underpowered straight trucks you're always downshifting kept it out of 5th under high-load highway conditions. Lugging 5th gear and really "rattling" the trans input shaft along with "high-performance" clutch "upgrades" guys with modified engines and no ability to recognize when its a better idea to start in 1st gear than 2nd actually cause most "low-mile" NV4500 OD "issues" but eventually even the "babied" stock trucks have issues. And why? Because "4500" represents 450 lb-ft. RATED INPUT TORQUE CAPACITY and by the time Dodge got around to using the NV4500 no matter what the engine torque rating said the Cummins engines with some miles and wear on them and "broken in" with some "nozzle growth" were making at least that much torque stock and shortly thereafter when the factory engine ratings went to 235 hp from 215 after going to 215 from 175 and 175 from 160, they were making 500+ lb.-ft when worked good and hard. Not to mention transmission torque ratings are for "low gear" and OD gives the vehicle/load more "leverage" on the engine and trans. Dodge automatics have a crappy reputation for reliability for a reason and its because unlike GM TurboHydramatic Division and GM eventually going to the Allison when GM's first "real" diesel pickup engine with direct injection and serious torque output came along, Chrysler never DID "upgrade" its automatics to get rid of the inherent weakness of "car transmissions" used in light-duty trucks with high-torque engines AND extended high-load/low-speed operation and b.s. "ratings" like your spouting using "horsepower" and "1200" when everybody with a clue knows that TORQUE is what transmissions must transfer and "live with" and "1200 horsepower" can be made with 200 lb.-ft. of torque if the engine is "wrapped" high enough in rpm just keep more and more people dumping ridiculous amounts of money in "aftermarket upgrades" to automatic transmissions that are inherently flawed and unsuited to the application. Not to mention that a CLUTCH PACK PISTON sees neither "horsepower" OR torque and is just "converting" transmission hydraulic pressure to mechanical "clamp load" squeezing plates and disks together. Plates and disks that are splined to drums, hubs, cases, etc. Typically STOCK pistons are equipped with a "check valve" that allows them to "dump" excessive pressure so a clutch pack SLIPS before shafts and gears BREAK or the piston itself is designed to "flex" and leak to allow slippage before breakage. Mainly because broken shafts/gears are not only expensive transmission failures but also because they can cause a transmission to "lock up" and take other expensive parts with it or even cause the driving wheels to lock up and that can result in a loss of vehicle control. Engine speed can spike and cause catastrophic engine failure, as well. But by installing "aftermarket upgrades" in a stock transmission and touting the "horsepower rating" at the same time you're no doubt providing no warranty coverage or reduced warranty coverage for MODIFIED VEHICLES including the TRANSMISSION AND ITS AFTERMARKET "UPGRADES" THAT MAKE EVEN A "STOCK" VEHICLE "MODIFIED" AS SOON AS YOU INSTALL THE "UPGRADED" TRANSMISSION, you're able to do a "rebuild" of a worn-out TorqueFlite with "sloppy parts" that are sloppy because they're worn out for about the same "low price" you can "rebuild" a TH transmission for. And by the time those "upgrades" are ALSO worn out and the transmission is a complete pile of junk in probably 1/2 the time a completely "rebuilt" stock transmission with all of the worn out "hard" parts replaced with NEW OEM "hard" parts but still well out of the ridiculously short warranty period transmission shops provide for their "upgraded" trans relative to stock.
I usually don't argue on the Internet with folks like yourself or people with your demeanor. But here goes--and I'll try my best to address some of the valid real world (stuff we see everyday on race units as we've done this for 20 years now with much success) points, but probably will not address some of the other "crazy theory" you've come up with OR your "general ranting and raving". I'm well aware that automatic transmissions have a torque rating from the manufacturer, and not a horsepower rating. We rate our drag racing transmissions in horsepower not torque, for simplicity sake AS MOST THINGS IN DRAG RACING ARE BASED OFF OF HORESPOWER. As a general rule of thumb "torque" gets you off the starting line and "horsepower" gets you to the finish line. In drag racing they are both important, obviously. We rate our diesel transmissions in torque. With that said, I could honestly care less if you agree with our horsepower or torque rating system or not.
great video
I have been burning up my 1st couple of clutches and will check into this fix.I make 1,000 hp in a heavy car and my front band and drum burned also.
Michael give me a call and I can probably walk you through a couple of things on your trans.
720-939-0183
Beautiful work of machinery. Thanks
thats the one i tuned i for - to see which way the seals on the piston go. it's like its top secret. no one seems to show it - and im afraid its critical.
The lip on the seals face down towards the fluid pressure.
@@andrewsracingtrans Bro - Thank you for so much
Wow deeremeyer1 must be a retired engiqueer. That’s some sweet parts. I’ve always hated putting those forward drums together with the slop. It seems like only half of them are that way. Where do you get the steel spacers under the snap rings. Hate that plastic junk.
max fore, we've been using or own stash of steal spacer rings up to this point. I agree with you about the later plastic spacer rings. We often find them broken or melted.
You can find the steal spacer ring in the earlier 727's... about '70 and back I believe.
To my knowledge no one is reproducing this piece yet....
The plastic one's hold up better.
I can show you about 10 of the steel spacers broken at the weld.
@@johnsaum1260 do you build a lot of torqueflite transmissions? I've never once seen a steel spacer ring failed in 20 years. I've seen plastic rings melted and broken.
@@johnsaum1260 after tearing down 100s of 727 style torqueflite transmissions from 1967-2006 I would have to respectfully disagree with you.
Great Video! Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience, very much appreciated.
Can you recommend a manufacturer or two of a reverse valve body and trans brake that you like?
A guy on a forum is selling a new Cope billet brake setup for a decent price. Do you like these?
Thanks and keep the videos coming if you can - good stuff!
wheelspin1000 thank you.
Cope has done a lot of R&D on his valve bodies and is right up there with A&A in terms of quality. His billet brakes work very well from what I hear. I've been selling and installing A&A valve bodies and trans-brake valve bodies for almost 20 years. You can't go wrong with either one.
If you want to discuss other manufacturers valve bodies and why I wouldn't recommend most of them, give me a call and we can discuss in detail.
Great video! Thanks for the help on my 727
What is part number for applied billet piston .875? Can't find it on there site?
The A&A part number is 22964BA-875
@@andrewsracingtrans got it thanks👍 I'll have to call an order from them a vendor or you if you have them in stock. Doing 727 on 1970 Dodge Monaco and it has 58k but has play like in your video but less. So I'll check but I'm thinking .50 would do it along with 74 up Belleville spring. Do you have them in stock?
@@coolestchannel4413 I've got .875" and .850" in stock and new Chrysler late belleville springs or good used.
Hi... i cant seem to find the part nr? Have they gone out? Or changed the part nr? At A&A i meen :-)
The A&A part number is 22964BA-875.
@@andrewsracingtrans cant find that nr on the a&a site!
@@Sixx1980 their site hasn't been updated in quite some time. You'll have to call in to order.. ask for Robert. We also stock them....
@@andrewsracingtrans ok.. thx😁
Can anyone give me a parts list to build a 727 backing a 360/408 set to rev limit at 5,500RPM. Going into a Ramcharger.
Will be fed by a Carter 625 AFB. Good TQ cam and looking for 300 ish HP.
Can anyone point me in the right direction for solid off road 727 build ups?
727 in stock form can hold a good bit of power. I'd do a standard rebuild kit with basic yellow frictions, or red racing clutches. A good shift kit, or high pressure automatic shift valve body, good servos, and a deep pan to help with cooling.
Hey thanks for the response. Didn't even consider servos. I am illiterate to this it my first auto rebuild.
I hope you can help me with one very important piece I can't find anywhere...the pin shaft that goes through the Govenor on my 1970 727. Production date for the car is 9/69. The governor was dismantled and the e clip broke on one side and pin shaft that e clips through Govenor looks worn on moddle...would you have a spare good pin and e clips or whole Govenor? Ready to purchase tomorrow asap. Plz let me know thank you 😇
Yes, I have all of that.
@@andrewsracingtrans number to call an order I'll have Cal call you tomorrow for it. Thank you very very much.
@@coolestchannel4413 720-939-0183
I need one....
I've done a LOT of powershift transmission work in agricultural and construction machines (predominantly JD farm tractors with 2-speed powershift capability along with a "manual" transmission all the way up to 19-speed full powershifts) and clutch packs are used in PTO clutches and differential locks and various other locations and even inboard planetary disk brakes are pretty much "clutch packs" and I've played with a few GM TH350s and learned Allisons (the "real" ones in medium-duty trucks rather than the light-truck GM version in light trucks) back in tech school. And I'm fairly familiar at least "externally" with TorqueFlites and their many "features" that make them super-expensive and difficult to "rebuild" to factory specs since they have many "hard parts" that wear out along with the friction materials.
And most of the JD stuff I've worked on uses Belleville springs or "washers" as some manuals/mechanics/manufacturers refer to them. What I've never seen is a Belleville spring-released clutch pack where the Belleville washer(s) don't put at least some "preload" on the snap-ring during assembly. Unless there were "hard parts" worn beyond their "serviceable" limit and that's usually post-catastrophic failure when friction material has come off the disks due to improper fluid and/or service/maintenance and over-travel of the piston through countless cycles has weakened the Belleville spring(s) to the point they no longer have tension.
I can't picture a scenario where that kind of situation could proceed to the point of the Belleville spring "inverting" since the piston pretty much has to travel so far out of the drum that it's going to dump oil pressure long before it gets to that point. Not to mention the Belleville spring is a RETURN SPRING to force the piston back into the drum when application oil is "spilled". The disks and plates in the clutch pack are the "stop" for the piston when it's being forced out by pressurized oil in the drum. And excessive endplay is always the result of "hard parts" worn and "sloppy" rather than an aluminum piston that does nothing but convert hydraulic oil pressure to mechanical load on the clutch pack disks, plates and drum while overcoming Belleville spring "tension". So installing a thicker piston - billet or not and with "billet" really meaning NOTHING since aluminum "billets" are CAST just like all metal "stock" is CAST while FORGINGS are made from cast "billets" mechanically "beaten" into rough shape which retains the grains structure and most "billet parts" are WEAKER than forged and even "cast" OEM parts or the OEM parts are WEAKER for a REASON - to take up "slop" in an assembly of "hard parts" is a "band-aid fix" at best and it should be entirely unnecessary with serviceable OEM "hard" parts - new or used - assembled properly.
The aluminum piston - billet or not - is not a "fix" for worn-out "hard parts" and the extra material is just a "spacer" to take up that excessive endplay that would result if the exact same OEM "hard parts" which are worn out and no longer serviceable because of the excessive "slop" they have when assembled weren't "fixed" with that "spacer" installed in the form of a thicker piston. And if the "late" Belleville spring is used - a spring that came on the scene apparently in 1990 when Chrysler turned the venerable but already out-dated when brand-new (Chrysler was about 14 years behind GM and several years behind Ford introducing automatic transmissions and GM came out with an entirely new compound planetary TurboHydramatic transmission "family" as soon as automatics went "mainstream" enough to be used in even its "cheap" Chevrolet passenger cars and was the first manufacturer by a LONG WAYS to put automatics in light-duty trucks while Chrysler and Ford stayed with dual-band, single-planetary light-duty automatics) TorqueFlite into a "modern" OD automatic and started putting those "modern" OD automatic behind Cummins diesel engines in light-duty trucks.
Diesels run slow and produce lots of torque at low speeds and to "keep up with" Ford and GM with their "high-speed" V8 diesels AND big-block gasoline engines while offering an OD automatic in heavy, high-load vehicles with high-torque/low-rpm engines and relatively high axle gears ('89 and '90 Dodge Cummins/auto trucks had to have 3.08s to get over 60-65 mph with no OD and "late" 1st-gen Dodge pickups with OD autos have 3.54 gears because they have no lockup converter, 3.73 gears are GM only and 4.10s were out of the question because 4wd pickups with gear-drive transfer cases usually have a slightly faster front axle ratio (4.10 front vs. 4.11 rear in GMs made possible because GM makes its own rear axles and used Dana front axles and could adjust its rear-axle ratio accordingly for example) and Dana 60 fronts were geared the same as Dana 70 rears so no "speed differential" was possible and the "high" 4wd low-range ratio (about 1.90-something to 1 instead of at least 2:1) of NP205 transfer cases all made 4.10s a no-go for Dodge so the transmission had to be "beefed up" to compensate. The actual clutch oil application pressure in a clutch pack is really determined by the STRENGTH OF THE SPRING(S) THE PRESSURE HAS TO OVERCOME as well as piston area rather than just "line pressure" and the difference between the oil pressure required to compress the spring and "line pressure" multiplied by the piston area is how much "clutch pack oil pressure" is available to press the disks and plates together.
And the "late" spring is actually WEAKER than the "early" spring because its "fingers" are longer so less pressure is needed to "compress" it. That change was made to allow lower pump speeds and line pressures to apply the forward clutch more quickly and reduce slippage during application so major internal mechanic changes like increased pump size and capacity to produce more flow at a given engine speed weren't necessary for the LOW-VOLUME Cummins diesel transmissions alone. The V-10s are often mentioned as being part of the reason for the "upgrades" to Dodge automatic transmissions but they didn't come along until '94 long after the many "issues" with Chrysler TorqueFlites behind diesel engines were well-known. Loose torque-converters mean(t) that diesel engines rapidly accelerate to high enough engine speeds even under high loads to spin the pump fast enough to provide "sufficient" oil flow to apply the forward clutch and forward band with sufficient force to handle "stock" torque and specified GVWR loads when everything is in perfect condition and the trans is warmed up (TorqueFlites HATE cold weather and cold oil because of the whole bands and servos thing) AND when manually "locked" into 1st gear and with proper band adjustment maximizing holding power.
But as soon as things start getting worn and/or loads get "heavier" than stock specifications and filters are somewhat plugged (another TorqueFlite "feature" is they continually make metal but deposit it in areas invisible to the eye during normal trans service) and the oil is either "hot" or "cold" even the diesel "upgrades" aren't enough to prevent slippage and heating and heat is the biggest killer of automatic transmissions period. And since diesel engine fuel injection nozzles and unit injectors over time experience what is known as "nozzle growth" as the tip orifices erode and get larger and mechanical injection pumps and nozzles have springs that "load" the delivery valves in the pump and nozzles to meter and time fuel delivery precisely that weaken over time so it takes less fuel pressure to "pop" them and fuel delivery is increased and injection timing is "advanced" by that wear/weakening which results in more torque as the engine wears and "breaks-in", eventually even a 100% stock engine in a "perfectly" maintained/operated/serviced mechanically-injected Dodge Cummins truck "overloads" the stock transmission or at least subjects it to more transmission-slippage-creating torque as time goes on.
Transmission pump wear and increased leakage and travel of clutch pack and band servo pistons decreases the amount of oil flow (pressure results from flow and restriction) and pressure available and shifts take longer and clamping force of servos/bands is reduced as the bands are "adjusted" to make up for wear. Adjusting bands puts the pistons back in their "normal" positions in the case but that's where the majority of wear in the case servo piston bores is and where leakage is the highest and that reduces torque capacity and "holding power" of the bands and clutch packs even further. And of course that "unique" and highly abrasive (compared to other ATFs) ATF+4 Chrysler TorqueFlite transmissions require to keep bands/drums "deglazed" and to keep seals and friction materials "sharp" and "fresh" to minimize leakage and slippage takes its toll on HARD PARTS that rely on the ATF for LUBRICATION.
The abrasives actually accelerate wear and when those little particles get between splines in drums and on shafts and other tight-clearance areas and start wearing the material away the increased clearances lead to more wear and tear and pieces rattling around on and in each other which creates larger clearances for more of that abrasive fluid to flow into and through and the final result is that a Chrysler TorqueFlite is "good" until it fails and then its usually "junk' IF ITS BEEN OPERATED AND MAINTAINED AND SERVICED PROPERLY AND HAS A NICE "LONG" SERVICE LIFE.
One that's ABUSED AND NEGLECTED will need rebuilt so early in the vehicle's life under WARRANTY a new transmission will be installed OR the trans will be rebuilt by the dealer with new OEM hard parts with the "core" trans or damaged parts going back to the factory under warranty for inspection/analysis or will be destroyed to prevent reuse. And Chrysler went FWD back in the late 80s so "core" trannies and "serviceable" hard parts are HARD TO FIND USED AND "CHEAP".
I'm well aware of the differences between CAST, FORGED and BILLET. You can choose to use a cast piston and think it's better, but the reality is that a part CNC machined out of a "billet of aluminum" is superior to one that is CAST in terms of tolerance. Chrysler's machining practices (or lack thereof) were horrible to say the least. This isn't a case of "worn out hard parts" as you say. You could get the parts brand new from Chrysler and still have the exact amount of play in the forward clutch assembly. THIS IS BECAUSE OF CHRYSLER'S LOOSE MACHINING TOLERANCES--NOT WORN OUT HARD PARTS. This is not a band-aid fix as you say, this is the fix for the poor job that was done in manufacturing these transmissions. It is a real world problem, and not something I decided to make-up and do a video on. This is a very common failure on drag race torqueflite's that are built with STOCK or OEM parts.
You might also want to get more familiar with Chrysler torqueflites internally instead of externally (your words) before you diarrhea out of your mouth about something you have very little experience, and working knowledge of. AGAIN IN CASE YOU MISSED IT--I'VE BEEN DOING THIS A LONG TIME. I know what works and what doesn't.
By the way, ATF+4 is fine and doesn't wear out hard parts like you say. Chrysler starting using it to eliminate torque converter lockup shudder.
where can i buy some of this
You can buy direct from A & A Transmission or any A & A dealer. The part number is 22964BA-875.
4 friction a 3 steels were in mine but the annoying part is 4 new friction and 3 new steels make it impossible to to get the flat snapring in because the stack is too thick . ive taken it apart and tried putting it back together so many times already thinking somethings wasnt seated right but cant figure it out . not sure if the kit i got sent me too thick of steels or what . anyone have any idea what the issue could be?
What is the thickness of your friction plates, steel plates, and snap ring? Measure them individually and let me know.
@@andrewsracingtrans Thank you for the reply . I dont have access to a micrometer but comparing the new steels to the old ones there is quite a visual difference in thickness so i think the steels are my issue . i might just use the old steels , they dont appear to be warped but they need a clean lol .
"Rated to 1200 horsepower". Invariably when you start hearing powertrain components and parts referred to as being "rated to X horsepower" the manufacturer or shop/mechanic performing the work involved in installing them is either in CTA (Cover Their Ass) mode and/or isn't too "educated" on powertrain components and parts. Transmissions in particular are always rated for INPUT TORQUE CAPACITY because "horsepower" means nothing. Horsepower is the RATE AT WHICH WORK CAN BE PERFORMED or has been performed and its calculated from torque and rotation speed. And excess torque "felt" by a transmission is ALWAYS the result of vehicle modifications and/or improper operation/service such as loads too large and heavy for the vehicle's GVWR and/or not adhering to the manufacturer's recommended service schedule and procedures including periodic "full service" including band adjustments. Chrysler TorqueFlite "family" transmissions are "tough" because they have large fluid capacities, two bands in place of high-load clutch "packs", low rotating mass and reduced internal complexity and lubrication needs because of those bands and require "special" automatic transmission fluid that is "abrasive" compared to Dexron-Mercon with the "abrasive" qualities needed in order to prevent band/drum slippage/glazing.
The band engagement servos also take a fraction of the fluid to "fill" as a clutch pack would, continuous and designed-in leakage clutch packs have to aid in "spilling" them quickly during disengagment and to keep them supplied with cooled and filtered fluid is eliminated when bands and servos replace clutch packs and that "abrasive" fluid helps keep all friction surfaces rough enough to "bite" even with lower-than-normal fluid levels and higher than normal fluid temps from excessive loads and "stall/near-stall" torque converter operation for extended periods with the resulting low cooler flows, normal wear of seals and the "hard" parts they seal against and the resulting leakage and other "automatic transmission killers" much more "modern" and "complex" and BETTER transmission designs have lower tolerance for when THEY'RE improperly operated/serviced.
And since Chrysler stopped making RWD passenger cars and SUVs about the same time other manufacturers began offering OD automatics with lockup torque converters and Chrysler didn't offer lock-up converters on A518/A618 Cummins turbodiesel pickups and waited until the "2nd Generation" Cummins diesel pickups with inline injection pumps with aneiroid fuel delivery control and chain-drive New Venture "low-geared" transfer cases and limited-slip rear differentials in the Dana 70/80 axles were available to put a lockup converter in front of its automatic transmissions and a body design compatible with auxiliary transmission coolers and with much better cooling package overall capacity in addition to the "fluid to water" coolers on the Cummins diesels was standard, few Chrysler TorqueFlites were subjected to day in and day out, high-load and low-speed operation sufficient to wear one out or overheat it within the powertrain warranty period.
Dodge also switched from its famous 7/70 powertrain warranty "standard" to an optional 3-year/36,000-mile "bumper to bumper" warranty with a 100,000-mile engine warranty on Cummins trucks. And those trucks for several years were only purchased by older truck owners who could afford them and appreciate the service life potential and who intended to keep the trucks a long time and were very good about performing required maintenance. And since they were usually replacing gas-burner pickups or GM/Ford indirect-injection low-HP diesels with them and the 1st-gen Cummins trucks were "tractors" by comparison, even few of THOSE got really worked hard.
But since there was no OD auto until '91 and prior to that automatic-equipped Cummins trucks had to have 3.08 differential gears to achieve any kind of "highway speed" with their 2500-rpm high idle speed, those early 1st-gen Cummins/auto trucks that DID get worked hard with those "1/2-ton" gears smoked Torque-Flites very easily and before long Dodge had to come out with an "auxiliary" transmission cooler with a large cooler and a big electric fan mounted back along the frame rail of the pickup because there was no room for one up front and half the front clip would have had to be disassembled to install it anyway.
160 hp and 400 lb.-ft. of torque was very "impressive" but in front of a slushbox 727 with 3.08 gears in a 3/4-ton 4wd pickup with 16" tires 33" in diameter and with only 2500 engine rpm and MAYBE 20 psi of boost to play with (tiny turbos and rotary injection pumps helped prevent even more transmission issues) and gas-burner transmission valvebody calibrations suitable for a 318-powered 1/2-ton along with a torque converter to match, high-load pulling over and above the GVWR lunched them BEFORE they reached the first recommended transmission service at 30,000 miles. My grandpa's '90 smoked a couple transmissions on Dodge's dime pulling a 24-foot "bull package" steel stock trailer with 48-52 head of fat hogs just getting up one pretty long and steep and curvy hill after leaving the farm in the 2 miles to the highway.
Of course the alternative was the ALSO too-weak Getrag 360 5-speed manual that came along when the OD autos did. A few early 1st-gen Dodge Cummins trucks have 4-speeds but not many. Kinda hard to sell a 4-speed along with a $5,000 optional engine and in a $25,000 "heavy-duty" regular cab 4wd pickup with power windows and locks, carpet, cloth seat, etc. Eventually they replaced the tranny and put in the big auxiliary trans cooler but the only thing that saved the old '90 from a lifetime of bi-annual transmission overhauls was Grandpa buying a '98 2500 Extended Cab shortbox Cummins with a 5-speed. He still has both trucks and of course like pretty much all hard-worked NV4500s in Cummins Dodges that trans had the OD gear "issue" although his did run over 200,000 miles before that happened.
Mainly because the opportunities to get into 5th gear and "walk the dog" with a stock engine and with the kind of loads it has pulled along with an old man's "driving style" and a lifetime spent driving underpowered straight trucks you're always downshifting kept it out of 5th under high-load highway conditions. Lugging 5th gear and really "rattling" the trans input shaft along with "high-performance" clutch "upgrades" guys with modified engines and no ability to recognize when its a better idea to start in 1st gear than 2nd actually cause most "low-mile" NV4500 OD "issues" but eventually even the "babied" stock trucks have issues.
And why? Because "4500" represents 450 lb-ft. RATED INPUT TORQUE CAPACITY and by the time Dodge got around to using the NV4500 no matter what the engine torque rating said the Cummins engines with some miles and wear on them and "broken in" with some "nozzle growth" were making at least that much torque stock and shortly thereafter when the factory engine ratings went to 235 hp from 215 after going to 215 from 175 and 175 from 160, they were making 500+ lb.-ft when worked good and hard. Not to mention transmission torque ratings are for "low gear" and OD gives the vehicle/load more "leverage" on the engine and trans. Dodge automatics have a crappy reputation for reliability for a reason and its because unlike GM TurboHydramatic Division and GM eventually going to the Allison when GM's first "real" diesel pickup engine with direct injection and serious torque output came along, Chrysler never DID "upgrade" its automatics to get rid of the inherent weakness of "car transmissions" used in light-duty trucks with high-torque engines AND extended high-load/low-speed operation and b.s. "ratings" like your spouting using "horsepower" and "1200" when everybody with a clue knows that TORQUE is what transmissions must transfer and "live with" and "1200 horsepower" can be made with 200 lb.-ft. of torque if the engine is "wrapped" high enough in rpm just keep more and more people dumping ridiculous amounts of money in "aftermarket upgrades" to automatic transmissions that are inherently flawed and unsuited to the application.
Not to mention that a CLUTCH PACK PISTON sees neither "horsepower" OR torque and is just "converting" transmission hydraulic pressure to mechanical "clamp load" squeezing plates and disks together. Plates and disks that are splined to drums, hubs, cases, etc. Typically STOCK pistons are equipped with a "check valve" that allows them to "dump" excessive pressure so a clutch pack SLIPS before shafts and gears BREAK or the piston itself is designed to "flex" and leak to allow slippage before breakage. Mainly because broken shafts/gears are not only expensive transmission failures but also because they can cause a transmission to "lock up" and take other expensive parts with it or even cause the driving wheels to lock up and that can result in a loss of vehicle control. Engine speed can spike and cause catastrophic engine failure, as well.
But by installing "aftermarket upgrades" in a stock transmission and touting the "horsepower rating" at the same time you're no doubt providing no warranty coverage or reduced warranty coverage for MODIFIED VEHICLES including the TRANSMISSION AND ITS AFTERMARKET "UPGRADES" THAT MAKE EVEN A "STOCK" VEHICLE "MODIFIED" AS SOON AS YOU INSTALL THE "UPGRADED" TRANSMISSION, you're able to do a "rebuild" of a worn-out TorqueFlite with "sloppy parts" that are sloppy because they're worn out for about the same "low price" you can "rebuild" a TH transmission for. And by the time those "upgrades" are ALSO worn out and the transmission is a complete pile of junk in probably 1/2 the time a completely "rebuilt" stock transmission with all of the worn out "hard" parts replaced with NEW OEM "hard" parts but still well out of the ridiculously short warranty period transmission shops provide for their "upgraded" trans relative to stock.
I usually don't argue on the Internet with folks like yourself or people with your demeanor. But here goes--and I'll try my best to address some of the valid real world (stuff we see everyday on race units as we've done this for 20 years now with much success) points, but probably will not address some of the other "crazy theory" you've come up with OR your "general ranting and raving".
I'm well aware that automatic transmissions have a torque rating from the manufacturer, and not a horsepower rating. We rate our drag racing transmissions in horsepower not torque, for simplicity sake AS MOST THINGS IN DRAG RACING ARE BASED OFF OF HORESPOWER. As a general rule of thumb "torque" gets you off the starting line and "horsepower" gets you to the finish line. In drag racing they are both important, obviously. We rate our diesel transmissions in torque. With that said, I could honestly care less if you agree with our horsepower or torque rating system or not.
Never gonna see 1,200 hp. :)
Mine have.
My quickest 727 has been 7-teens at just under 200mph.
(: