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The three Routes of Fate/Stay Night all give a different answer. Fate: Completely rejects Fate/Zero's bleak view. Unlimited Blade Works: Allows it's critiques to interrogate the ideal, but rather than destroying it, the deconstruction leads to a reconstruction that strenghtens the ideal even further. Heaven's Feel: Complete validation of Fate/Zero's bleakest aspects.
@@ProfessorViral I very much recommend it! For the record, there's a shift between Zero and Stay Night. Zero asks what it means to be a _King._ Stay Night asks what it means to be a _Hero._ Kiritsugu's adopted son, Shirou, inherits his dream of becoming a Hero. But the three routes take him to very different conclussions.
@@marocat4749 a lot of people find Shirou annoying but that’s usually because of the anime only. The anime cuts out a lot of his inner thoughts that make him a completely different character. Like when Archer saved him from Caster from anime only perspective Shirou seems like he thinks he can survive without Archer's help but in the VN you learn Shirou is upset because he knows he holding Archer back and would rather let Caster kill him then let Archer lose trying to protect him. It’s just funny to me how many people dislike Shirou not knowing about what he’s actually thinking at the moment. The anime is amazing but it’s a shame it cuts out so much of the characters deep inner thoughts.
It's something I discovered retroactively as I went through the series that I thought I should share. Doesn't exactly "spoil" anything but it does give an idea of why a lot of Fate fans are so adamant about watch order
8:28 Don't get me wrong, but one aspect that i dislike from Artoria in Fate/Zero, was her lack of common sense and pragmatism that she had in Fate/Stay Night. As in Fate/Zero, Saber always showcases a too passionated chivalry, to the point of allowed herself be in disadvantage in some circunstances, even if this means a bigger risk to loses the Holy Grail war, and fail to her kingdom once again. Particulary, when Lancer planned to destroy his Gae Budhi to removes the curse in Artoria to stop Caster. Yet, Saber was notably reluctance to this, to not be "dishonorable", overlooking the fact that if she can't retrieves the capability to uses her strongest Noble Phantasm, then Caster could endanger the entire city and kills millions of people. But Artoria was basically willing to accept this issue, only to "uphold her honor", like if the death of millions of innocent people was irrelevant to her. Well, as Iskandar chastised her, Saber was behaving like a little girl, than a proper king.
@@fanfanlatulipe8369 how is she annoying? The fate zero writer also can't write her she is cold because she killed her emotions if you read saber route you would know she was perfect in her life to the point that people who doubted her gender and capability had no choice but to follow her because of her results this knightly saber is far from her original cold character which is why I hate zero so much
@@trapking2009 only watch the anime. And, sorry, many times, they won cause "power of friend ships". No profound things. Can we talk of the "sleeping together will regerate her mana !" During heracles fight ? (Wiiiirrrddd). Fate zero more matire and, for me, iskandar is 100% right. She is maybe a saint, but no one will follow his path see how hard it is. Even mordred wich is to make her place less harder.
@@fanfanlatulipe8369 again ishkandar was different as a king from saber she isn't a tyrant she could easily be a tyrant but she wasn't she only wished to protect Britain her actual flaw was killing her emotions to perform the kings duty so neither Gilgamesh nor ishkandar were better kings than saber they never went through what she did so they have no rights to judge her and that's why I hated fate zero saber was not written properly she was a overly chivalrous girl which is far from her character lore wise so fate zero writer is ass at writing saber should have let nasu do his thing
@@fanfanlatulipe8369 them sleeping together wasnt to regenerate her mana it was to have Shirou give part of his magic circuit to her but i digress. Also Zero is only "mature" on the surface. Pretty much every character in the war is immature and the only one who actually grows meaningfully is Waver. Also "power of friendship" wins are pretty much nonexistent . Trying to judge a story based on tropes alone when you cant even properly contextualize them is flawed
idk if this has been said already, but I studied political science in undergrad and your comparison of saber and rider is really interesting to me-- this is because we identify different types of leadership: the way you describe rider, he seems to embody some kind of rational-legal authority, where you can consider his form of leadership self-replicating, since it inspires leadership in others. Saber, on the other hand, represents charismatic leadership, which usually is very short-lived, because the death of the charismatic leader means the end of the political system. Idk this is a nerdy info-dump but you legit touched on political theory with that one
That's the opposite of iskandar though as he believed only in himself and his actions. Arthur did inspire everyone else and the values of what kings should be like for generations
But Gilgamesh did have something taken from him. Throughout the entire series he states that the Grail is already his and that he is simply preventing any other "mongrels" from stealing it. But in the climax of the series when it's right in front of him the Grail is snatched away.
That's just ego talking, he never actually owned this holy grail. He just owned the prototype version. The grail was created long after his passing by the 3 mage families. It wasn't actually his, at best the idea is.
@@mritunjaytripathi-cl2ep Archer Gilgamesh hadn't lost the immortality herb yet. After he went through that journey and gained some humility he became Caster Gilgamesh
@@coreyeck5266he actually does have it remember the grail is made by humans, he only has the prototype for every noble phantasm the grail is not a noble phantasm
From someone who has only seen fate zero you make a great video essay describing what what you took away from the story. I like that you mentioned all of the major characters primary motivation as described by the series and went through them character by character, even going though the side characters as well. But as others will tell you, fate zero is largely a prequel for a reason in that it sets down events to be followed up on Fate stay night. Without that knowledge, the messages being laid by fate zero are only partially completed and can be prone to misunderstanding, infact it's actually very common to see misconceptions based on people only watching zero instead of taking it in it's proper context. Sabers descent, or journey in fate zero for example was created to lead into her actual character arc later on in fsn which provides the other side of her rule that fate zero did not explore which completely changes context. One day I hope you can read the fsn visual novel and see for yourself.
Yep as good as it is, having seen the fate series of deen or even of only bladeworks. It makes it just a better drama knowing most will just end in futility and their kids have to pick up. And saber, it makes her aprociate shirou more knowing he bears actual good will and a heart at work. And fate stay noght pretty much has a saber accepting her role.
The Banquet of Kings is the scene that bothered me the most out of Fate/Zero, though none of the characters are at fault or wrong for thinking why they do. If I were to blame anyone it would be Urobuchi who seems to be cherry picking just to bully Saber. First two issues are points that Rider brings up which he is not wrong to believe. Rider says that a king needs to inspire and this is true but he criticizes Saber for not doing so, this is where he is wrong. King Arthur did inspire, King Arthur is one of the biggest names in legends and only Jesus Christ is revered more than King Arthur. It does not seem King Arthur inspired the Britons, but Arthurian scholars unanimously believe King Arthur had to exist in some form because a wide span of people were naming their sons Arthur in a time that is suspected,when King Arthur was alive, it was also at this time that the Ancient Britons unified to defeat the Saxons which took over Ancient Briton, which was said to be an impossible feat. In this context, Saber did inspire her people, it was just posthumously. Second issue is that no one looks up to the martyr, which is also false. I can see how Rider could believe this. Hero worship would not exist if this was true. Saber is the "radiant hero that dazzles" that Kiritsugu was talking about. Rider is not worshipped as a hero but as a conqueror. Saber is the kind that was worshipped. What about martyrs that is worshipped is not their thorny path, but the strength to endure that thorny path and to remain just and noble and not to become jaded like Kiritsugu. I feel like Urobuchi's ideology is to blame for this. I dont blame any of the characters because they don't have this knowledgeable but when taken out of character I feel like Urobuchi is forcing his ideology into the story. An ideology I don't agree with. That being said it was amazingly written and executed.
I think you miss a point by looking at the historical context. If you look at those three, they are inherently different than both their historical counterpart, as well as their fictitious, mythical counterpart. The show even pokes fun at this topic when waver confront rider about him being supposedly short, and definitely not a ginger, to which rider reply to never trust others to tell your story. This show really does look at a different version of these characters. Rider's whole ideal of conquest without destruction, subjugation without humiliation is at total odds of his historical self, the one who identified as a god destined to rule humanity, and humiliated Darius on every turn. They are not their more familiar selves, this is its own version.
@@alucard347 that’s just a bad cope. Yes they are their own versions but they are not something alien. Being a little different does not make them completely unique. The histories did still happen but there are twists. Servants can’t be fictional, there are some exceptions but this doesn’t happen until Extra and only happens because the Moon Cell, it doesn’t apply to Zero. The truth doesn’t matter. Because the Human Order is absolute and is based off the perception of the human collective.This precisely why Vlad and Carmilla are vampires. They aren’t but human collective believes them to be, this in turn causes the Human Order to force the concept into these characters. Also because Heroic Spirits have the concept of Noble, the Human Order makes it so they can’t lie. In this setting, concepts are more powerful than truth. It doesn’t matter that Iskandar’s past was different, that truth is overwritten by what people think actually happened.
Thank you! I've taken issue with the way Riders pov is getting gloryfied. If he inspires people to become rulers, chaos would ensue, by everyone trying to force their will on all others where the innocent have to pay the cost for the greed of mankind. That simply cannot be right. People have elected kings and put their trust into them for them to guide the nation towards times of harmony and prosperity. If people were to sacrifice themselves for a king, what value would that generate for the public? A king has to be a martyr, as he carries the responsibility and the wishes of an entire nation. The greatness of a leader can be read by the wealth of the nation and the fondness they're getting remembered by. Everything else is just gloryfied enslavement, no matter the intention of the leader.
1. Posthumous inspiration is meaningless, you inspire during your reign to draw the best out of your people. Once you die, they aren't your people, which means King Arthur essentially lived for everyone other than his own people. 2. Nobody wants to be a martyr, they glorify them after death as a reward for sacrificing everything they had, but nobody looks up the martyr, they do not want to be like the martyr, so they don't 'follow' the martyr either. Alexander is absolutely right, Artoria isn't someone who can lead millions to their death with a beaming, fulfilled smile on their face; Alexander is. Essentially, Saber's life isn't admired by her people, nobody wants to be Saber, they're just glad someone else is doing what she does for them. This isn't a King, it's a pawn you sacrifice.
@@ciarangallagher9330 1. England would not exist without that posthumous inspiration. The present follows the past and the future follows the present. Saber was loved as much as she was feared. She did inspire her people, and that inspiration led to the people of England to drive out the superior Saxon army. As long as it impacts the living, it matters. Also Saber’s not dead. 2. People do look up to martyrs. As I explained. You may not have that viewpoint, but viewpoints other than yours exist. Iskandar had a point but only that. He was wrong as much as he right. He was right about a leader needing to lead and inspire. He was wrong about Saber not inspiring her people, that very much did happen.
Wow, a Fate review that actually delves into the psychological aspects of the themes present in the writing? I had no idea something like this even existed, and I almost didn't click on this because most Fate reviews are just a culmination of fangasming and missing the point. I'm really glad I gave this a looksey as it was really informative and refreshing. I hope you do more!
"To win but never to destroy, to subjugate but never to humiliate" That's what rider is all about. Not about greed and being jealous of your king. He unites people under his banner. Inspires weak people to become stronger (Waver Velvet for example). And no matter how strong Rider is he shows respect to everyone even if he disagrees with them. Even though greed might be an inherent part of his character he has so much more to offer.
@@Arthurian_Rabbit Alexander was a good ruler. I dont even want to know to what are you reffering to... Yes he had some missteps but he was an amazing ruler for his time and for many centuries to come. There is a reason he inspires even today.
If Fate/Zero taught me anything it's that having the right legacy after one's death is far more important than the lives of these mythic legendary figures who on the surface may seem untouchable, but in reality they are all still deeply flawed people. You could have someone serving you who conquered all the known world, but none of the landmarks that used to exist go by the same name nor have the same people occupying them with the same ideals. "Gaze upon my mighty works and despair" said Ozymandias, but the onlookers only see a vast desert filled with ruins of a once proud king. It won't be a mighty savior like figure to leave behind a legacy that means anything to common people. And I don't even think Iskander left much of an impression beyond the men who directly served him, the influence bleeding the farther you go from the army. What really changes people is simpler than that. If you can teach a large enough group of people to write and keep records on different subjects like math, science, literature, foreigner languages etc. - and maybe more importantly than that to treasure this knowledge and actually go through the arduous task of learning/spreading it you have something far more likely to create good people than rely on a few exceptional figures every century to hold a pillar up for civilization.
While I don't agree with Alexander in this scene, he had a huge lasting effect on humanity by spreading Hellanism throughout the middle east. There's this little known religion that was struggling at the time. Don't know if you've heard of it, but it was called...Chrischeeanity? Something like that. Anyways, his actions inadvertantly gave that small religion the avenue it needed to eventually spread like wildfire, and here we are today. He definitely didn't set out to do that, but it happened as a result of his campaign centuries later.
I had a similar experience with Saber here. I really relate to Saber and even Shirou. I was always been a group leader in our class and there's this year-long highschool project which I greatly failed to lead. No offense to my groupmates, but they didn't get to contribute much, I failed to get them coordinated and did most of the work on my own instead, mostly because it's less hassle. The worse part is, the final part of the project is to have them present without me (which we didn't know till the end) and so they failed... so hard. Like Saber, i feel so guilty about it, even now and it made me realize i shouldnt be too kind. I should've been more strict. They didnt seem too bothered about it tho but i was traumatized. Years have passed and I still suffer from too much selfessness and still learning to be more assertive. I have yet to learn how to lead and serve better. I just also hope how and when can i forgive myself for my mistakes i made before... Also, it was really lonely being a leader, much worse a very ambitious one until i met someone who i could rely on and who would follow me at my side, and I'm very grateful of having him as my partner. :)
Zero would be fine by itself, but as part of the larger Nasuverse it falls apart. Saber’s section, considering how small her part is I can easily see you watched Zero first. Urobuchi, we call him the Urobutcher for butchering her Character just to prop up the other Characters. Saber in Zero is a caricature of who she was compared to when she was written by Nasu. Artoria, while Idealistic was aware of the harsh realities of War and Rulership, she fought for 10 years to establish her Kingdom against rival Kings and Mythical Beasts, once she established her Kingdom, Britain under her rule experienced 10 years of prosperity despite reality itself trying to destroy her Kingdom in addition to foreign and domestic threats both mystical and mundane trying to undermine her. Artoria did not fail her Kingdom, her Kingdom failed her. Guinevere and Lancelot weakness led to them committing Adultery, which is treason in those times, Artoria forgave and pardoned them and thus they felt ashamed of what they have done. Agravain hatred for Woman lead to him attempting to execute Guinevere for Treason despite her pardon, Lancelot saved her but in the process killed Gawain’s full blooded Siblings. Tristan left the Knights of the Round Table due to his Grief, abandoning them to tribulations ahead. Mordred an immature Bastard born of rape and incest was rejected because she was not fit to be king, in her rage over being rejected as she planned a rebellion with disgruntled Nobles and foreign Mercenaries. When Mordred’s rebellion against her Father started, Lancelot returned to Help Artoria but was driven off by Gawain for the death of his siblings. If you watched the FGO Camelot films, you may recognize the majority of these names, these are the Knights that failed to live up to her expectations and when they were summoned into the 6th singularity, they believed this was their chance to repent for their failings in life that lead to the fall of Camelot and thus accepted the Lion King’s proposal.
Saber remembers,the saber in fate stay night and ubw and co, is one grown already. A lot from her trauma. And she probably didnt tell him due not wanting to destroy his idealism. And whilt that definitive is retroactive writing in stuff, its done well fitting in at least the series.
I like to think that Zero is just what her character was like before Stay Night, and the challenges of her ideology and what not are what was necessary for her to self reflect enough to end up who she is during Stay Night. We don't know how long it was for her until Shirou summoned her, after all.
@@colt1903 Here's the thing, we have characterization for Saber's characterization before Zero and she was pragmatic. She did try to follow chivalry/honor and such, but she would never prioritise it over her goals like in Zero. It's kind of stupid for her to go from pragmatic ruler to naïve knight then back to pragmatic ruler.
I love how Iskandar was only one who reached his goal among the kings. He didn't get reincarnated as he wanted but he trained and prepared Waver for hardships, Gilgamesh goal was to reclaim the grail and take Saber as wife, Saber's one was to save kingdom. Iskandar didn't set goals too high even if he chased after impossible his main goal wasn't impossible as it was just to prepare others, Saber's only goal was to save country there was no in between as nothing less was satysfying for her (until FSN), Gilgamesh wanted everything and nothing at the same time so only thing he wanted (Saber) he failed to get bc he set goals too high and actually did impossible, so he had nothing to desire for anymore.
The thing is though, all kingdoms eventually fall. What can last for eternity is ideals. The modern world we live in today and the kinder, fairer world we strive for tomorrow hasnt been and will not be shaped by harsh realists. It will be shaped by idealists. That is, people who chose to embody their ideals to the fullest rather than adapt to an immoral society. People like iskandar will always inspire more people because greed and lust are our base desires. Everyone has those desires inside us, therefore one who embodies them to the fullest will inspire more people. But is that really whats best for the world? These desires will encourage people to better themselves and themselves alone, it will inspire selfishness and cruelty. Artoria chose to go against the law of the land and embody the ideals she knew to be right. Iskandar himself admits her heroic light is truly majestic after witnessing excalibur. Ultimately her people lost their way because they could not live up to an ideal hero. But those ideals will last for ages after her kingdom falls. They will inspire the people of the future to emody justice, chivalry and kindness in their lives and to make the world a better place. In the end i think that has much more meaning that simply living life for oneself and oneself alone.
You conveniently ignore some of the critiques of that though. For example, one of the "problems" IS that the light of her ideals can last for so long. Because search of heroic glory has, over the centuries, led to so many young and naive people throwing their own life away that it makes Sabers personal kill count (something she already doesn't like) exponentially larger. Ryders master Waver Velvet is literally designed to show the young brash trying-to-become-a-hero-only-to-die-early due to those very ideals Sabers myth inspires; before Ryders intervention at showing a better path.
. Ultimately her people lost their way because they could not live up to an ideal hero. But those ideals will last for ages after her kingdom falls. They will inspire the people of the future to emody justice, chivalry and kindness in their lives and to make the world a better place. In the end i think that has much more meaning that simply living life for oneself and oneself alone. and why anyone who isn't or want to be like this are less than of saint who isn't human why having greed and desires are bad and going against them is good? because it isn't how reality works artoria ideals is about being morality slave without thouth of herself not to mention all actions are selfish even arthoria
I love how the story shows that none of their ideals are perfect. It's not black and white, this guy is right and this guy is wrong it's more than that and I love it A really great analysis on a really great pieces of fiction
Yeah, the grey morality of Urobuchi's work is one of the things that always draws me back in. I love the commitment to let the viewer have to draw their own conclusions based on what's presented. But, thank you for watching, I'm glad you enjoyed!
Best video I've seen on Fate/Zero no question, makes me wonder how you'd do with Shiro's story. Never actually thought to look into Gilgamesh' way of doing things untill this. Plus I didn't look too close at Kariya honestly. Thanks man
Good analysis as far as only Zero is concerned but if you throw in the other Fates as well it becomes a contradictory mess because Zero's author didnt understand Saber or outright forgot entire scenes in the previous work that establish her character, her ideals and kingship. -Saber isnt supposed to be the opposite of Kiritsugu. They are supposed to be the same. Their clash of ideals make no sense. -Saber shouldnt prioritize honorable duels to the point of endangering innocent lives. -Saber HATES fighting. But that is what she knew to do and what she had to do. This whole thing with Lancer is as if this is a completely new character. -Saber wants the grail above all else in order to save her kingdom. And yet she almost gets her Master killed out of spite. -Saber had to deal with dipshits like Rider for 10 years of war. Why is she hurt so much by his random egotistical bullshit? Honestly, the only time we see the real Saber is when Berserker stops moving and she kills him without hesitation. Oh wait that was cut from the anime....Oh well. Then again, if you know even a bit of King Arthur you should know that it still doesnt make much sense how she is portrayed here unless if you think that the author went somewhat original with her.
After reading Garden of Avalon, I truly started questioning Saber's portrayal in Fate/Zero. During her wars to establish Camelot she had a similar behavior to Kiritsugu, there was even one time her brother said she ordered villages to be pillaged for supplies, and how she was outright relentless when battling the Saxons. And that's not mentioning the political nightmare that was dealing with nobles that ended up betraying her at first chance.
The problem with FSN’s interpretation of saber is that it presents a realistic version of a king who was ruthless against the enemy and commited atrocities, yet also glorifies her saying she should be proud of her acomplishments as a tyrant and dsserves to be happy
@@killerdiva7771 She was no different than other kings who sacrificed soldiers and land for the sake of victory to protect her land. And she accomplished things. And people weren't afraid of her ruthlessness but of her perfection. Camelot was doomed from the start and she delayed that. Her knights couldn't keep up with her but still recognized her kingship.
@@ssjokg4952 your right. Fsn saber was no different than any other kings of her time. And just like those kings she had nothing to be proud of. The only thing she accomplished was prolonging the downfall of an immoral society/kingdom. Unlike in fate zero, she had no ideal of honor, justice or chivalry that could exist beyond her kingdom and inspire the future of humanity. Like most kings, all she had was another immoral monarchy that fell to ruin just like all the rest, to make way for the world of the future. Again, the issue with this version of the character isnt that she is a realistic king, its that we view the story through the lens of shirou emiya who has nothing but respect, admiration and love for this ruthless tyrant Just to add on, waver’s admiration of iskandar can also be seen as having the same problem. Except that at the end, iskandar actually changes his ways and rather than asking waver to devote himself to iskandar by fighting and dying for him, instead asks him to live to the fullest for himself. The iskandar at the start of the story would have demanded his retainer to blindly follow him to the path of death, but iskandar realizes that he truly cares for waver, and he wants waver to have a better life than he what gave to his followers.
@@killerdiva7771 where did you get all that immoral stuff from? She protected her people from invaders, united the British people/clans and was an enforcer of law, not even turning a blind eye to her queen and best friend. She inspired future kings all over europe. But sure go off with whatever rant you have prepared.
I find the way you understand Rider fairly wrong. Throughout the series he explains his own ideals and how he treats others. Its not a disastrous evil world where you must do the same but a world that you have every right to challenge and pursue your dream. This can translate to anything. Even on his own concuest he easily declares that he concuers but not humiliate etc etc. In that regard he is not the other side of the coin for Saber, that role imo goes to Giglamesh. Iskander is the middle ground between the two. Saber alienates herself by becoming the unapproachable ideal. Giglamesh does the exact reverse with the world bowing to him and his arogant rule. And then there is Iskander in the middle, in one hand a "tyrant" And in the other uniting everyone in the same dream, inspiring but still be respected, giving fuel for future generations. Saber was a failed King, Giglamesh was a sucesful king but noone remembers for his ruleship. Iskander is sucesful in what both of those two desired both the "pleasures" of the world and inspiring and uniting the people for something good. His dream may didnt continue after his death but that was the point, to inspire peopl to dream of their own. Whats the point of a king that supposedly conquers for a dream and inspire people in the same way if he is to enforce said dream in the shake of unity? It would be contrary to his beliefs and appear hypocritical.
Now that's making a flawed character and a good use of gender swapping (didn't really need too but arthur with those personality traits and flaws is good with either gender and that's a good character, take notes Hollywood, y'all don't have to make all the male characters useless just to make women cool, women are cool without doing that, *cough luke, Indiana*)
One part we forget about Gilgamesh is that for him,being a king is his role, similarly to a slave having his role too. In some way, he is a mix between Saber and Rider. But we see it more in Babylonia..
Artoria was never a King. A King leads their people to a brighter future where their hopes and dreams become a reality. To do so, a King must understand what those hopes and dreams are, and one cannot understand without having hopes and dreams of their own. Thus, a King is a Tyrannt of Ideals.
This was a great video, general but insightful, with a different take than what you can usually find on the series, which is one of my personal favourites. I wanted to listen to it while doing something else but I ended up watching the whole thing paying close attention. 👍
Well done! You managed to capture more of the subtler details and themes that many others seem to have missed. In addition, the whole video was structured rather nicely. I have my personal issues with zero as it also comes with problems such as saber being ooc and butchering her ideology because urobuchi needed a "noble" character to break but at the cost of contradicting earlier characterization(In F/SN and other works). Despite that, Zero is a great prequel and is still one of the best entries in the franchise. I would recommend you to check out the Fate/stay night visual novel, which zero is a prequel off. They’re somewhat different works so it would be unwise to go in expecting zero and vice versa, but in a similar fashion, F/SN deals with idealism, but this time focusing on the main character, kiritsugu’s adopted son Shirou, and how he inherits his father’s wish. The two titles complement each other, and your analysis further cements my belief in how thematically connected the they are. The reason why I am suggesting that you read the vn and not the animes is because none of the F/SN adaptations in the last two decades have actually managed to properly adapt the visual novel. A large factor concerns the internal monologue of the protagonist. Zero had the advantage of being a light novel written in third person focusing on the conflict of ideals between characters while SN focuses on the protagonist and his internal turmoil regarding his ideals, so naturally SN had the worse adaptations and ufotable has shown themselves to be deathly allergic to adding his thought processes in that were so important in contextualing his actions , and without them, Shirou's whole character is severely crippled. In short, they are ultimately watered down flashy spectacles that skip so much internal monologues, exposition, character motivations, plot, the involvement of entire characters arc, and overall missed the mark on what made the source material and its characters so good.
Saber is a "leader" not a king in my opinion i look at kings like the drug [King]pins in the wire they graciously give out points on a package to the people who do good they are just for greed and people see that power and want to be a part of it. This can be a moral discussion but thats just my starting comment on it.
Not really a problem when in Fate all three of them were real Kings that actually existed. It's just that Iskandar's kingship was passed down on history as a "true fact" while Gilgamesh and Artoria's were passed down as just "mythology/fiction" but all of them were real Kings that actually existed in Fate.
There was a real gilgamesh but his ideal there is a myth entirely , and for the sake of goating with a pst hero. While still to fantastical to ever have been more than a myth.
All these kings are stupid. A real, king, queen, president, politicians, supposed to do what is best for all their country only, the people in power never matters
Can't believe i never noticed this before, but if you take all three kings and put them into routes they are the three routes in reverse Saber is Heaven's Feel= there's a conclusion that is taken to the extreme and nobody wins but not everyone loses Iskandar is UBW= everything is tempered and compromises are made but the dream still stands tall Gilgamesh is Fate= everyone in the limelight gets a happy ending and in the end they get what they wanted with only the minor characters losing
When the anime started, I didn't think I'd like him or Velvet. But they grew from light hearted moments into heart breaking ones, and they turned into two of my favorites
A great video that reminds me why I hate Urobuchi's writing. "Realism is better because it's true and being a good person will only get you and others killed"
Honestly, the actual " best king" would be the older version of gilgamesh (caster gilgamesh) from fate grand order; since ,you know, we actually see him managing his kingdom...
Where have you been online? Most people prefer Zero over Unlimited Blade Works. Heaven's Feel is the highest rated adaptation but it's significantly less popular than Zero or Unlimited Blade Works
@@icouldntthinkofaname479 yeah, I like the visual novel best cause they also share the same point on Artoria but go into much better detail. The basement scene in fate route was the best
Just pointing this out... Fate/Zero actually spoils Fate Stay/Night by existing. And stay/night spoils Zero. It makes starting into the series VERY difficult.
No, its makes it more tragic knowing it wil be futile,which urobuchi is known for. Knowing that just make it a more sad experience. Like hey at least my daighter will be fine, muhahaha. Or ilya. Knowing it just makes it sadder. And shiros adoration and that their parents, were not worth admiring minus that that didnt got to.
I'm not sure how you take the side of the selfish leaders, saber idealogy is not perfect but it's in the right place, their ideologies is just evil hidden behind a charismatic front, how the hell did you and everyone else get fooled by that
Because you just show utter lack of understanding. This is a class on morals, philosophy, ideals, and perspective. Do you know why there is no universal ideal? Because literally all have their positives and negatives. There is no objective "right answer". The fact you write the ones you don't like off as just "hidden evil" shows you cannot remove your personal view from analysis. Understanding perspectives does not mean agreeing. "To you" INTENTION seems to matter; that her "ideology comes from the right place". To others, intention is no defence if the action results in bad things. Neither view is objectively right, just because you personally resonate with one over the other. Likewise, not every would agree with what you think a King should be about. Alexander and Gligamesh compared to Saber have very different perspectives on what a King is "supposed" to do; but people who want to discuss ideology need to debate perspectives, and that does not include just ignoring their arguments are stupid "selfish leaders". I can just as easily retort that, from their perspectives, Saber is by far the most selfish leader there lol. And you would understand that, if you had put away personal bias and tried to understand where they are coming from. To call them out on the basis of selfishness is actually hilarious, given that their entire critique is about how a closer look shows her righteousness to be selfish in nature and self-defeating in the long term for her people.
Video Essays like this are the problem with Analyzing Fate/Zero while ignoring it's status as a Prequel. The most Evil character don't Win in the end because the narrative wants to vindicate anything about them, like Revenge of The Sith it's so the real Heroes beat them later. Fate/Zero is not taring down Saber's ideology but her confidence in it because Fate/Stay Night is about her faith in them being restored. Also if you'd seen UNW first you would know Weaver does return to the Clocktower. But what annoys me most is when people analyze Lancelot in Zero while ignoring that Zouken messed with his summoning, he's not actually Insane because of anything about how Artoria ruled but because Zouken forced the Berserker class on him. And Saber didn't punish him for the affair with Guinevere because she didn't view as a Sin in the first place, again Stay Night players know she is fully capable of being down for a Poly relationship. You at least are not simping for Rider as hard some other fans out there are. But still even suggesting he's more right Saber is a problem considering his world view is Fascism. The Grail Dialogue revolved around how these 3 Kings answer 2 different questions. In my view the most correct answer is the position absent form the conversation, that a Leader should serve their people but as one of them not standing alone.
calling his world view fascism shows that you know nothing of fascism. Both monarchy and fascusm are authoritarian governments, but they are nothing alike. Not only that but Iskandar's actions during his life didnt only include his people but even the conquered. His position against Saber feels more like a contrarian statement than his actual belief that he is a tyrant or anything of the shorts. yes he has to be the personification of the extremes of all things but that also includes the good aspects as well. yes he is the most jealous but he can be the most loving as well. people cherrypick his statements based ont he words alone but they miss the entire message. Yes he is the most greedy but he has shown with his life that he was the most generous as well. yes he was the king of conquerors but he didnt humiliate his subjects, he went and included them and inspired them to join him as well. Fascism is nothing of those things. Iskander promotes inclusivity in pursuing ones dream for something better, fascism promotes one group above all else in the cost of everybody else for a short term dream. Iskander's empire fell soon after his death but it still fired an age of prosperity and technological/scientific/cultural advancements as result of the conquest itself. A fascist ideologically person would have burned everything to the ground. ofcourse thats still a surphase level understanding of the difference of the 2 positions.
@@PELLIOTIS The fact that your main arguments agaisnt Iskandar being Fascist is simply that he wasn't Racist shows how limited your understanding of Fascism is. Nazism was actually the most Atypical Fascism.
I liked Saber, she is still my waifu after all. However her ideals sickened me and when she was berated by Iskandar and laughed at by Gilgamesh to the point that her face is filled with despair it filled me with glee, her ideals are getting verbally torn down right in front of her and all i was thinking back then was "Good, let me see her suffer more. Learn from your mistakes or better yet, break down". And then what do you know, Lancelot vs Artoria happened and her sad face of seeing what Lancelot turned into filled me with even more glee
I mean out of the three of them artoria was the ideal king, and her ideals aren't wrong camelot is prove of that, a 10 year utopia that would have kickstarted a new age of gods, which was unfortunately destroyed by morgan, and if that wasn't enough the world itself made camelot into a quantum time lock, so its going to be destroyed no matter what. Lets quote richard for a bit "Well, there was one thing our Knight King lacked compared to the others. Her voice was too small! I would approve and deny any king's intentions! After all, it's natural for who was born in a different land, in a different time to have their own royal intentions! But the guy who said "I was the one who was right!" at the end was strong. He reminded me of that Crusader, Phillip.
Not glee but its annoying, and probably intentional so. That she has to se what drives her, not what she thinks she has to be, with all responsibility for her role. Probably why she berates shiro so much too. Its even theme in in ubw.
exept every story of her is difrent so your point dosen't count just as well she rulled for ten years sho she was right nope by that logic staling ruled longer than her and he was right nope @@KohakGaming1000
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The three Routes of Fate/Stay Night all give a different answer.
Fate: Completely rejects Fate/Zero's bleak view.
Unlimited Blade Works: Allows it's critiques to interrogate the ideal, but rather than destroying it, the deconstruction leads to a reconstruction that strenghtens the ideal even further.
Heaven's Feel: Complete validation of Fate/Zero's bleakest aspects.
Interesting, maybe I'll have to look into more Fate sometime!
@@ProfessorViral
I very much recommend it!
For the record, there's a shift between Zero and Stay Night.
Zero asks what it means to be a _King._
Stay Night asks what it means to be a _Hero._
Kiritsugu's adopted son, Shirou, inherits his dream of becoming a Hero. But the three routes take him to very different conclussions.
@@ProfessorViral yeah i like blade works too, but its more whole having seen fate stay night before. Even if shiro csn be annoying at first.
@@marocat4749 a lot of people find Shirou annoying but that’s usually because of the anime only. The anime cuts out a lot of his inner thoughts that make him a completely different character. Like when Archer saved him from Caster from anime only perspective Shirou seems like he thinks he can survive without Archer's help but in the VN you learn Shirou is upset because he knows he holding Archer back and would rather let Caster kill him then let Archer lose trying to protect him.
It’s just funny to me how many people dislike Shirou not knowing about what he’s actually thinking at the moment. The anime is amazing but it’s a shame it cuts out so much of the characters deep inner thoughts.
How does HF validate Zero? Shiro is actually happy when he completely casts aside his dad's idiocy.
Fate: Oneself as an Ideal
Unlimited Blade Works: Questioning one's Ideal
Heaven's Feel: When Ideals meet Reality
Zero: What are Ideals?
I haven't seen the others to know this, but it seems like quite the evolution lol
It's something I discovered retroactively as I went through the series that I thought I should share. Doesn't exactly "spoil" anything but it does give an idea of why a lot of Fate fans are so adamant about watch order
GILGAMESH : I am the King And My Actions Are The Ideals.
😁😁😁
Fate: What am I?
UBW: Who am I?
HF: Why am I?
Zero: HOW AM I?!
😂😂😂
8:28
Don't get me wrong, but one aspect that i dislike from Artoria in Fate/Zero, was her lack of common sense and pragmatism that she had in Fate/Stay Night. As in Fate/Zero, Saber always showcases a too passionated chivalry, to the point of allowed herself be in disadvantage in some circunstances, even if this means a bigger risk to loses the Holy Grail war, and fail to her kingdom once again.
Particulary, when Lancer planned to destroy his Gae Budhi to removes the curse in Artoria to stop Caster. Yet, Saber was notably reluctance to this, to not be "dishonorable", overlooking the fact that if she can't retrieves the capability to uses her strongest Noble Phantasm, then Caster could endanger the entire city and kills millions of people. But Artoria was basically willing to accept this issue, only to "uphold her honor", like if the death of millions of innocent people was irrelevant to her.
Well, as Iskandar chastised her, Saber was behaving like a little girl, than a proper king.
In fate normal rout, she is ennoying. I personnaly enjoy a lot when Iskandar give her a big reality smash
@@fanfanlatulipe8369 how is she annoying? The fate zero writer also can't write her she is cold because she killed her emotions if you read saber route you would know she was perfect in her life to the point that people who doubted her gender and capability had no choice but to follow her because of her results this knightly saber is far from her original cold character which is why I hate zero so much
@@trapking2009 only watch the anime. And, sorry, many times, they won cause "power of friend ships". No profound things. Can we talk of the "sleeping together will regerate her mana !" During heracles fight ? (Wiiiirrrddd).
Fate zero more matire and, for me, iskandar is 100% right. She is maybe a saint, but no one will follow his path see how hard it is. Even mordred wich is to make her place less harder.
@@fanfanlatulipe8369 again ishkandar was different as a king from saber she isn't a tyrant she could easily be a tyrant but she wasn't she only wished to protect Britain her actual flaw was killing her emotions to perform the kings duty so neither Gilgamesh nor ishkandar were better kings than saber they never went through what she did so they have no rights to judge her and that's why I hated fate zero saber was not written properly she was a overly chivalrous girl which is far from her character lore wise so fate zero writer is ass at writing saber should have let nasu do his thing
@@fanfanlatulipe8369 them sleeping together wasnt to regenerate her mana it was to have Shirou give part of his magic circuit to her but i digress. Also Zero is only "mature" on the surface. Pretty much every character in the war is immature and the only one who actually grows meaningfully is Waver. Also "power of friendship" wins are pretty much nonexistent . Trying to judge a story based on tropes alone when you cant even properly contextualize them is flawed
idk if this has been said already, but I studied political science in undergrad and your comparison of saber and rider is really interesting to me-- this is because we identify different types of leadership: the way you describe rider, he seems to embody some kind of rational-legal authority, where you can consider his form of leadership self-replicating, since it inspires leadership in others. Saber, on the other hand, represents charismatic leadership, which usually is very short-lived, because the death of the charismatic leader means the end of the political system. Idk this is a nerdy info-dump but you legit touched on political theory with that one
That's the opposite of iskandar though as he believed only in himself and his actions. Arthur did inspire everyone else and the values of what kings should be like for generations
not really@@MrInuhanyou123
But Gilgamesh did have something taken from him. Throughout the entire series he states that the Grail is already his and that he is simply preventing any other "mongrels" from stealing it. But in the climax of the series when it's right in front of him the Grail is snatched away.
That's just ego talking, he never actually owned this holy grail. He just owned the prototype version. The grail was created long after his passing by the 3 mage families. It wasn't actually his, at best the idea is.
@@mritunjaytripathi-cl2ep Archer Gilgamesh hadn't lost the immortality herb yet. After he went through that journey and gained some humility he became Caster Gilgamesh
@@mritunjaytripathi-cl2epActually, he went on the quest to get the immortality herb again just for thr sake of adding it to his treasury.
@@coreyeck5266he actually does have it remember the grail is made by humans, he only has the prototype for every noble phantasm the grail is not a noble phantasm
From someone who has only seen fate zero you make a great video essay describing what what you took away from the story.
I like that you mentioned all of the major characters primary motivation as described by the series and went through them character by character, even going though the side characters as well.
But as others will tell you, fate zero is largely a prequel for a reason in that it sets down events to be followed up on Fate stay night. Without that knowledge, the messages being laid by fate zero are only partially completed and can be prone to misunderstanding, infact it's actually very common to see misconceptions based on people only watching zero instead of taking it in it's proper context.
Sabers descent, or journey in fate zero for example was created to lead into her actual character arc later on in fsn which provides the other side of her rule that fate zero did not explore which completely changes context.
One day I hope you can read the fsn visual novel and see for yourself.
Hello heisenberg
None of the anime adaptations do her characters complexity justice
Yep as good as it is, having seen the fate series of deen or even of only bladeworks.
It makes it just a better drama knowing most will just end in futility and their kids have to pick up.
And saber, it makes her aprociate shirou more knowing he bears actual good will and a heart at work.
And fate stay noght pretty much has a saber accepting her role.
The Banquet of Kings is the scene that bothered me the most out of Fate/Zero, though none of the characters are at fault or wrong for thinking why they do. If I were to blame anyone it would be Urobuchi who seems to be cherry picking just to bully Saber.
First two issues are points that Rider brings up which he is not wrong to believe.
Rider says that a king needs to inspire and this is true but he criticizes Saber for not doing so, this is where he is wrong. King Arthur did inspire, King Arthur is one of the biggest names in legends and only Jesus Christ is revered more than King Arthur. It does not seem King Arthur inspired the Britons, but Arthurian scholars unanimously believe King Arthur had to exist in some form because a wide span of people were naming their sons Arthur in a time that is suspected,when King Arthur was alive, it was also at this time that the Ancient Britons unified to defeat the Saxons which took over Ancient Briton, which was said to be an impossible feat. In this context, Saber did inspire her people, it was just posthumously.
Second issue is that no one looks up to the martyr, which is also false. I can see how Rider could believe this. Hero worship would not exist if this was true. Saber is the "radiant hero that dazzles" that Kiritsugu was talking about. Rider is not worshipped as a hero but as a conqueror. Saber is the kind that was worshipped. What about martyrs that is worshipped is not their thorny path, but the strength to endure that thorny path and to remain just and noble and not to become jaded like Kiritsugu. I feel like Urobuchi's ideology is to blame for this.
I dont blame any of the characters because they don't have this knowledgeable but when taken out of character I feel like Urobuchi is forcing his ideology into the story. An ideology I don't agree with. That being said it was amazingly written and executed.
I think you miss a point by looking at the historical context.
If you look at those three, they are inherently different than both their historical counterpart, as well as their fictitious, mythical counterpart.
The show even pokes fun at this topic when waver confront rider about him being supposedly short, and definitely not a ginger, to which rider reply to never trust others to tell your story.
This show really does look at a different version of these characters.
Rider's whole ideal of conquest without destruction, subjugation without humiliation is at total odds of his historical self, the one who identified as a god destined to rule humanity, and humiliated Darius on every turn.
They are not their more familiar selves, this is its own version.
@@alucard347 that’s just a bad cope. Yes they are their own versions but they are not something alien. Being a little different does not make them completely unique. The histories did still happen but there are twists. Servants can’t be fictional, there are some exceptions but this doesn’t happen until Extra and only happens because the Moon Cell, it doesn’t apply to Zero.
The truth doesn’t matter. Because the Human Order is absolute and is based off the perception of the human collective.This precisely why Vlad and Carmilla are vampires. They aren’t but human collective believes them to be, this in turn causes the Human Order to force the concept into these characters. Also because Heroic Spirits have the concept of Noble, the Human Order makes it so they can’t lie. In this setting, concepts are more powerful than truth. It doesn’t matter that Iskandar’s past was different, that truth is overwritten by what people think actually happened.
Thank you! I've taken issue with the way Riders pov is getting gloryfied. If he inspires people to become rulers, chaos would ensue, by everyone trying to force their will on all others where the innocent have to pay the cost for the greed of mankind. That simply cannot be right. People have elected kings and put their trust into them for them to guide the nation towards times of harmony and prosperity. If people were to sacrifice themselves for a king, what value would that generate for the public? A king has to be a martyr, as he carries the responsibility and the wishes of an entire nation. The greatness of a leader can be read by the wealth of the nation and the fondness they're getting remembered by. Everything else is just gloryfied enslavement, no matter the intention of the leader.
1. Posthumous inspiration is meaningless, you inspire during your reign to draw the best out of your people. Once you die, they aren't your people, which means King Arthur essentially lived for everyone other than his own people.
2. Nobody wants to be a martyr, they glorify them after death as a reward for sacrificing everything they had, but nobody looks up the martyr, they do not want to be like the martyr, so they don't 'follow' the martyr either.
Alexander is absolutely right, Artoria isn't someone who can lead millions to their death with a beaming, fulfilled smile on their face; Alexander is.
Essentially, Saber's life isn't admired by her people, nobody wants to be Saber, they're just glad someone else is doing what she does for them. This isn't a King, it's a pawn you sacrifice.
@@ciarangallagher9330 1. England would not exist without that posthumous inspiration. The present follows the past and the future follows the present. Saber was loved as much as she was feared. She did inspire her people, and that inspiration led to the people of England to drive out the superior Saxon army. As long as it impacts the living, it matters. Also Saber’s not dead.
2. People do look up to martyrs. As I explained. You may not have that viewpoint, but viewpoints other than yours exist. Iskandar had a point but only that. He was wrong as much as he right. He was right about a leader needing to lead and inspire. He was wrong about Saber not inspiring her people, that very much did happen.
Wow, a Fate review that actually delves into the psychological aspects of the themes present in the writing? I had no idea something like this even existed, and I almost didn't click on this because most Fate reviews are just a culmination of fangasming and missing the point.
I'm really glad I gave this a looksey as it was really informative and refreshing. I hope you do more!
I’m just going through your entire catalog at this point still haven’t seen a video that was wonderfully put together
"To win but never to destroy, to subjugate but never to humiliate"
That's what rider is all about. Not about greed and being jealous of your king.
He unites people under his banner. Inspires weak people to become stronger (Waver Velvet for example). And no matter how strong Rider is he shows respect to everyone even if he disagrees with them.
Even though greed might be an inherent part of his character he has so much more to offer.
And his greed os not one of imposing his will on others but raise them up alongside him and enjoy it all with them.
It probably is a good thing that the Fate series rewrote him from actual history because boy, that line would hit different otherwise XD
@@Arthurian_Rabbit Alexander was a good ruler. I dont even want to know to what are you reffering to... Yes he had some missteps but he was an amazing ruler for his time and for many centuries to come. There is a reason he inspires even today.
If Fate/Zero taught me anything it's that having the right legacy after one's death is far more important than the lives of these mythic legendary figures who on the surface may seem untouchable, but in reality they are all still deeply flawed people. You could have someone serving you who conquered all the known world, but none of the landmarks that used to exist go by the same name nor have the same people occupying them with the same ideals. "Gaze upon my mighty works and despair" said Ozymandias, but the onlookers only see a vast desert filled with ruins of a once proud king. It won't be a mighty savior like figure to leave behind a legacy that means anything to common people. And I don't even think Iskander left much of an impression beyond the men who directly served him, the influence bleeding the farther you go from the army. What really changes people is simpler than that. If you can teach a large enough group of people to write and keep records on different subjects like math, science, literature, foreigner languages etc. - and maybe more importantly than that to treasure this knowledge and actually go through the arduous task of learning/spreading it you have something far more likely to create good people than rely on a few exceptional figures every century to hold a pillar up for civilization.
While I don't agree with Alexander in this scene, he had a huge lasting effect on humanity by spreading Hellanism throughout the middle east.
There's this little known religion that was struggling at the time. Don't know if you've heard of it, but it was called...Chrischeeanity? Something like that. Anyways, his actions inadvertantly gave that small religion the avenue it needed to eventually spread like wildfire, and here we are today.
He definitely didn't set out to do that, but it happened as a result of his campaign centuries later.
I thought this was gonna be just nowhere fate video essay but then I heard that oh so familiar voice
I had a similar experience with Saber here. I really relate to Saber and even Shirou. I was always been a group leader in our class and there's this year-long highschool project which I greatly failed to lead.
No offense to my groupmates, but they didn't get to contribute much, I failed to get them coordinated and did most of the work on my own instead, mostly because it's less hassle. The worse part is, the final part of the project is to have them present without me (which we didn't know till the end) and so they failed... so hard.
Like Saber, i feel so guilty about it, even now and it made me realize i shouldnt be too kind. I should've been more strict.
They didnt seem too bothered about it tho but i was traumatized.
Years have passed and I still suffer from too much selfessness and still learning to be more assertive. I have yet to learn how to lead and serve better. I just also hope how and when can i forgive myself for my mistakes i made before...
Also, it was really lonely being a leader, much worse a very ambitious one until i met someone who i could rely on and who would follow me at my side, and I'm very grateful of having him as my partner. :)
Zero would be fine by itself, but as part of the larger Nasuverse it falls apart.
Saber’s section, considering how small her part is I can easily see you watched Zero first. Urobuchi, we call him the Urobutcher for butchering her Character just to prop up the other Characters. Saber in Zero is a caricature of who she was compared to when she was written by Nasu.
Artoria, while Idealistic was aware of the harsh realities of War and Rulership, she fought for 10 years to establish her Kingdom against rival Kings and Mythical Beasts, once she established her Kingdom, Britain under her rule experienced 10 years of prosperity despite reality itself trying to destroy her Kingdom in addition to foreign and domestic threats both mystical and mundane trying to undermine her.
Artoria did not fail her Kingdom, her Kingdom failed her. Guinevere and Lancelot weakness led to them committing Adultery, which is treason in those times, Artoria forgave and pardoned them and thus they felt ashamed of what they have done. Agravain hatred for Woman lead to him attempting to execute Guinevere for Treason despite her pardon, Lancelot saved her but in the process killed Gawain’s full blooded Siblings. Tristan left the Knights of the Round Table due to his Grief, abandoning them to tribulations ahead. Mordred an immature Bastard born of rape and incest was rejected because she was not fit to be king, in her rage over being rejected as she planned a rebellion with disgruntled Nobles and foreign Mercenaries. When Mordred’s rebellion against her Father started, Lancelot returned to Help Artoria but was driven off by Gawain for the death of his siblings. If you watched the FGO Camelot films, you may recognize the majority of these names, these are the Knights that failed to live up to her expectations and when they were summoned into the 6th singularity, they believed this was their chance to repent for their failings in life that lead to the fall of Camelot and thus accepted the Lion King’s proposal.
Saber remembers,the saber in fate stay night and ubw and co, is one grown already. A lot from her trauma.
And she probably didnt tell him due not wanting to destroy his idealism.
And whilt that definitive is retroactive writing in stuff, its done well fitting in at least the series.
I like to think that Zero is just what her character was like before Stay Night, and the challenges of her ideology and what not are what was necessary for her to self reflect enough to end up who she is during Stay Night. We don't know how long it was for her until Shirou summoned her, after all.
More like Nasuverse is too cringe to be compared to Gen Urobichi's masterpiece.
@@GenUrobutcher I was gonna ask if you had understood how stupid that statement is... but then I saw the @ tag you have. I'm assuming you're joking?
@@colt1903 Here's the thing, we have characterization for Saber's characterization before Zero and she was pragmatic. She did try to follow chivalry/honor and such, but she would never prioritise it over her goals like in Zero.
It's kind of stupid for her to go from pragmatic ruler to naïve knight then back to pragmatic ruler.
This was an amazing fate video, one of the best, for how much fate is loved, there's not enough videos analyzing the greatness of it, great job man!
Thank you, I'm happy to provide a bit more content for a loved series : D
I love how Iskandar was only one who reached his goal among the kings. He didn't get reincarnated as he wanted but he trained and prepared Waver for hardships, Gilgamesh goal was to reclaim the grail and take Saber as wife, Saber's one was to save kingdom. Iskandar didn't set goals too high even if he chased after impossible his main goal wasn't impossible as it was just to prepare others, Saber's only goal was to save country there was no in between as nothing less was satysfying for her (until FSN), Gilgamesh wanted everything and nothing at the same time so only thing he wanted (Saber) he failed to get bc he set goals too high and actually did impossible, so he had nothing to desire for anymore.
Your style of analysis is just so entertaining. Great work man.
Thank you, I'm glad the slight shift in writing was just as enjoyable : )
The thing is though, all kingdoms eventually fall. What can last for eternity is ideals. The modern world we live in today and the kinder, fairer world we strive for tomorrow hasnt been and will not be shaped by harsh realists. It will be shaped by idealists. That is, people who chose to embody their ideals to the fullest rather than adapt to an immoral society. People like iskandar will always inspire more people because greed and lust are our base desires. Everyone has those desires inside us, therefore one who embodies them to the fullest will inspire more people. But is that really whats best for the world? These desires will encourage people to better themselves and themselves alone, it will inspire selfishness and cruelty. Artoria chose to go against the law of the land and embody the ideals she knew to be right. Iskandar himself admits her heroic light is truly majestic after witnessing excalibur. Ultimately her people lost their way because they could not live up to an ideal hero. But those ideals will last for ages after her kingdom falls. They will inspire the people of the future to emody justice, chivalry and kindness in their lives and to make the world a better place. In the end i think that has much more meaning that simply living life for oneself and oneself alone.
You conveniently ignore some of the critiques of that though. For example, one of the "problems" IS that the light of her ideals can last for so long. Because search of heroic glory has, over the centuries, led to so many young and naive people throwing their own life away that it makes Sabers personal kill count (something she already doesn't like) exponentially larger. Ryders master Waver Velvet is literally designed to show the young brash trying-to-become-a-hero-only-to-die-early due to those very ideals Sabers myth inspires; before Ryders intervention at showing a better path.
. Ultimately her people lost their way because they could not live up to an ideal hero. But those ideals will last for ages after her kingdom falls. They will inspire the people of the future to emody justice, chivalry and kindness in their lives and to make the world a better place. In the end i think that has much more meaning that simply living life for oneself and oneself alone.
and why anyone who isn't or want to be like this are less than of saint who isn't human
why having greed and desires are bad and going against them is good?
because it isn't how reality works
artoria ideals is about being morality slave without thouth of herself
not to mention all actions are selfish even arthoria
I love how the story shows that none of their ideals are perfect.
It's not black and white, this guy is right and this guy is wrong it's more than that and I love it
A really great analysis on a really great pieces of fiction
Yeah, the grey morality of Urobuchi's work is one of the things that always draws me back in. I love the commitment to let the viewer have to draw their own conclusions based on what's presented. But, thank you for watching, I'm glad you enjoyed!
Dunno riders will is the only one passed on untainted.
@@marocat4749 because riders will is to inspire people to dream. Among the 3 he was the most succesful at this. So no you are wrong
Best video I've seen on Fate/Zero no question, makes me wonder how you'd do with Shiro's story.
Never actually thought to look into Gilgamesh' way of doing things untill this. Plus I didn't look too close at Kariya honestly. Thanks man
Good analysis as far as only Zero is concerned but if you throw in the other Fates as well it becomes a contradictory mess because Zero's author didnt understand Saber or outright forgot entire scenes in the previous work that establish her character, her ideals and kingship.
-Saber isnt supposed to be the opposite of Kiritsugu. They are supposed to be the same. Their clash of ideals make no sense.
-Saber shouldnt prioritize honorable duels to the point of endangering innocent lives.
-Saber HATES fighting. But that is what she knew to do and what she had to do. This whole thing with Lancer is as if this is a completely new character.
-Saber wants the grail above all else in order to save her kingdom. And yet she almost gets her Master killed out of spite.
-Saber had to deal with dipshits like Rider for 10 years of war. Why is she hurt so much by his random egotistical bullshit?
Honestly, the only time we see the real Saber is when Berserker stops moving and she kills him without hesitation. Oh wait that was cut from the anime....Oh well.
Then again, if you know even a bit of King Arthur you should know that it still doesnt make much sense how she is portrayed here unless if you think that the author went somewhat original with her.
After reading Garden of Avalon, I truly started questioning Saber's portrayal in Fate/Zero. During her wars to establish Camelot she had a similar behavior to Kiritsugu, there was even one time her brother said she ordered villages to be pillaged for supplies, and how she was outright relentless when battling the Saxons. And that's not mentioning the political nightmare that was dealing with nobles that ended up betraying her at first chance.
The problem with FSN’s interpretation of saber is that it presents a realistic version of a king who was ruthless against the enemy and commited atrocities, yet also glorifies her saying she should be proud of her acomplishments as a tyrant and dsserves to be happy
@@killerdiva7771 She was no different than other kings who sacrificed soldiers and land for the sake of victory to protect her land.
And she accomplished things. And people weren't afraid of her ruthlessness but of her perfection.
Camelot was doomed from the start and she delayed that.
Her knights couldn't keep up with her but still recognized her kingship.
@@ssjokg4952 your right. Fsn saber was no different than any other kings of her time. And just like those kings she had nothing to be proud of. The only thing she accomplished was prolonging the downfall of an immoral society/kingdom. Unlike in fate zero, she had no ideal of honor, justice or chivalry that could exist beyond her kingdom and inspire the future of humanity. Like most kings, all she had was another immoral monarchy that fell to ruin just like all the rest, to make way for the world of the future. Again, the issue with this version of the character isnt that she is a realistic king, its that we view the story through the lens of shirou emiya who has nothing but respect, admiration and love for this ruthless tyrant
Just to add on, waver’s admiration of iskandar can also be seen as having the same problem. Except that at the end, iskandar actually changes his ways and rather than asking waver to devote himself to iskandar by fighting and dying for him, instead asks him to live to the fullest for himself. The iskandar at the start of the story would have demanded his retainer to blindly follow him to the path of death, but iskandar realizes that he truly cares for waver, and he wants waver to have a better life than he what gave to his followers.
@@killerdiva7771 where did you get all that immoral stuff from?
She protected her people from invaders, united the British people/clans and was an enforcer of law, not even turning a blind eye to her queen and best friend.
She inspired future kings all over europe.
But sure go off with whatever rant you have prepared.
Rider and Wavers was my favorite story thread throughout Zero. Wavers character development was so satisfying to watch.
Ik I absolutely loved their dynamic.
My personal history class no wonder i got a straight A in my history honors class lol thank you for this
Saber is top tier waifu.
I can agree with this lol
Its criminal that a video thats as detailed as this only nets 4500 views, you deserve a lot more man.
Thank you, it means a lot to hear that : )
I just can say... WOW... Just WOW
I find the way you understand Rider fairly wrong. Throughout the series he explains his own ideals and how he treats others. Its not a disastrous evil world where you must do the same but a world that you have every right to challenge and pursue your dream. This can translate to anything. Even on his own concuest he easily declares that he concuers but not humiliate etc etc. In that regard he is not the other side of the coin for Saber, that role imo goes to Giglamesh. Iskander is the middle ground between the two. Saber alienates herself by becoming the unapproachable ideal. Giglamesh does the exact reverse with the world bowing to him and his arogant rule. And then there is Iskander in the middle, in one hand a "tyrant" And in the other uniting everyone in the same dream, inspiring but still be respected, giving fuel for future generations. Saber was a failed King, Giglamesh was a sucesful king but noone remembers for his ruleship. Iskander is sucesful in what both of those two desired both the "pleasures" of the world and inspiring and uniting the people for something good. His dream may didnt continue after his death but that was the point, to inspire peopl to dream of their own. Whats the point of a king that supposedly conquers for a dream and inspire people in the same way if he is to enforce said dream in the shake of unity? It would be contrary to his beliefs and appear hypocritical.
Now that's making a flawed character and a good use of gender swapping (didn't really need too but arthur with those personality traits and flaws is good with either gender and that's a good character, take notes Hollywood, y'all don't have to make all the male characters useless just to make women cool, women are cool without doing that, *cough luke, Indiana*)
One part we forget about Gilgamesh is that for him,being a king is his role, similarly to a slave having his role too. In some way, he is a mix between Saber and Rider. But we see it more in Babylonia..
It's incredible to see how a video about kingship makes me cry this much. Awesome analysis.
Thank you, I'm glad the video was moving for you : D
@@ProfessorViral I cry 3 times at least. Was profound for me. Hope you get more videos on leadership and kingship in animes.
Artoria was never a King. A King leads their people to a brighter future where their hopes and dreams become a reality. To do so, a King must understand what those hopes and dreams are, and one cannot understand without having hopes and dreams of their own.
Thus, a King is a Tyrannt of Ideals.
Stumbled across an old gem it would seem
Now I would really like to see how the Master of Chaldea operates as a leader. But then again, that’s a hole no one really want to dive into.
Bro your channel is so underrated. You deserve 1 million or more subs
Thank you, maybe one day! But, I'm always just happy to have what I do : )
This was a great video, general but
insightful, with a different take than what you can usually find on the series, which is one of my personal favourites. I wanted to listen to it while doing something else but I ended up watching the whole thing paying close attention. 👍
Thank you for the kind words. I'm happy to hear it was engaging 😁
Wow, that was phenomenal! Very interesting take!
Thank you! 😁
4:13
Great video!!! :D
Thanks!
7:25
Good analysis. This take on the characters is significantly better than most on this platform
Thank you, I'm glad the time and quality showed through : D
Great vid, wow
Thank you! I always liked this one
Well done! You managed to capture more of the subtler details and themes that many others seem to have missed. In addition, the whole video was structured rather nicely. I have my personal issues with zero as it also comes with problems such as saber being ooc and butchering her ideology because urobuchi needed a "noble" character to break but at the cost of contradicting earlier characterization(In F/SN and other works). Despite that, Zero is a great prequel and is still one of the best entries in the franchise.
I would recommend you to check out the Fate/stay night visual novel, which zero is a prequel off. They’re somewhat different works so it would be unwise to go in expecting zero and vice versa, but in a similar fashion, F/SN deals with idealism, but this time focusing on the main character, kiritsugu’s adopted son Shirou, and how he inherits his father’s wish. The two titles complement each other, and your analysis further cements my belief in how thematically connected the they are.
The reason why I am suggesting that you read the vn and not the animes is because none of the F/SN adaptations in the last two decades have actually managed to properly adapt the visual novel. A large factor concerns the internal monologue of the protagonist. Zero had the advantage of being a light novel written in third person focusing on the conflict of ideals between characters while SN focuses on the protagonist and his internal turmoil regarding his ideals, so naturally SN had the worse adaptations and ufotable has shown themselves to be deathly allergic to adding his thought processes in that were so important in contextualing his actions , and without them, Shirou's whole character is severely crippled.
In short, they are ultimately watered down flashy spectacles that skip so much internal monologues, exposition, character motivations, plot, the involvement of entire characters arc, and overall missed the mark on what made the source material and its characters so good.
None of the adaptations do Astorias complexity justice imo
@@t2nexx561 She is far better portrayed in Deen's night than in Zero. So that says something.
surprised you didn't go into Caster on the idea of a toxic follower... then again, without Jeanne in this work I guess the effect is weakened
Saber is a "leader" not a king in my opinion i look at kings like the drug [King]pins in the wire they graciously give out points on a package to the people who do good they are just for greed and people see that power and want to be a part of it. This can be a moral discussion but thats just my starting comment on it.
I mean one is king in myth, one is demi god, and another one is a real king
Not really a problem when in Fate all three of them were real Kings that actually existed. It's just that Iskandar's kingship was passed down on history as a "true fact" while Gilgamesh and Artoria's were passed down as just "mythology/fiction" but all of them were real Kings that actually existed in Fate.
This covered things pretty well, I don't think I have much to add so I'll just bump this comment!
There was a real gilgamesh but his ideal there is a myth entirely , and for the sake of goating with a pst hero. While still to fantastical to ever have been more than a myth.
All these kings are stupid. A real, king, queen, president, politicians, supposed to do what is best for all their country only, the people in power never matters
Can't believe i never noticed this before, but if you take all three kings and put them into routes they are the three routes in reverse
Saber is Heaven's Feel= there's a conclusion that is taken to the extreme and nobody wins but not everyone loses
Iskandar is UBW= everything is tempered and compromises are made but the dream still stands tall
Gilgamesh is Fate= everyone in the limelight gets a happy ending and in the end they get what they wanted with only the minor characters losing
Iskandar is the one true king!
When the anime started, I didn't think I'd like him or Velvet. But they grew from light hearted moments into heart breaking ones, and they turned into two of my favorites
A great video that reminds me why I hate Urobuchi's writing. "Realism is better because it's true and being a good person will only get you and others killed"
☮️
Attacking Saber is like attacking christianity honestly
Gilgamesh is the true king 👑...cuz any other "king" or mongrel are beneath him
The anime never disputes this. That's what I love about it
@@ProfessorViral glad you agree too
*Laughs as the gods take Ekidnu back*
Ishtar: You were saying?
Honestly, the actual " best king" would be the older version of gilgamesh (caster gilgamesh) from fate grand order; since ,you know, we actually see him managing his kingdom...
@@dDoodle788 I think that was Gilgamesh after his adventures looking for the immortality potion.
I know that most people prefer Unlimited Bladeworks, but honestly Fate Zero for me is the best-written thematically within the franchise.
I haven't seen the other's to say, but it'll be hard to top this one
Where have you been online? Most people prefer Zero over Unlimited Blade Works. Heaven's Feel is the highest rated adaptation but it's significantly less popular than Zero or Unlimited Blade Works
@@atpr3241 No, most Fate fans prefer the visual novel.
@@icouldntthinkofaname479 yeah, I like the visual novel best cause they also share the same point on Artoria but go into much better detail. The basement scene in fate route was the best
Make this make sense
Just pointing this out... Fate/Zero actually spoils Fate Stay/Night by existing. And stay/night spoils Zero. It makes starting into the series VERY difficult.
You can't really spoil Zero since it was written with a predetermined destination. Atleast not in the traditional sense.
@@atpr3241 actually yes since fate zero is a prequel and was recommended even by Urobuchi, Takeuchi and even Nasu to be watched after the three routes
No, its makes it more tragic knowing it wil be futile,which urobuchi is known for. Knowing that just make it a more sad experience.
Like hey at least my daighter will be fine, muhahaha. Or ilya. Knowing it just makes it sadder.
And shiros adoration and that their parents, were not worth admiring minus that that didnt got to.
Is saber a boy???
All I care about is that Saber was a leader. All the other labels can be anything
No. Saber was basically a futa for one night to create mordred. Everything else is Saber is a woman who pretended to be a man. Kind of like Da Vinci.
@@wayneigoe6722 what the actual fuck why
@@wayneigoe6722 Da Vinci?
@@thegreatjohnjohnson4016 because fetish exists
I'm not sure how you take the side of the selfish leaders, saber idealogy is not perfect but it's in the right place, their ideologies is just evil hidden behind a charismatic front, how the hell did you and everyone else get fooled by that
Because you just show utter lack of understanding. This is a class on morals, philosophy, ideals, and perspective. Do you know why there is no universal ideal? Because literally all have their positives and negatives. There is no objective "right answer". The fact you write the ones you don't like off as just "hidden evil" shows you cannot remove your personal view from analysis. Understanding perspectives does not mean agreeing. "To you" INTENTION seems to matter; that her "ideology comes from the right place". To others, intention is no defence if the action results in bad things. Neither view is objectively right, just because you personally resonate with one over the other. Likewise, not every would agree with what you think a King should be about. Alexander and Gligamesh compared to Saber have very different perspectives on what a King is "supposed" to do; but people who want to discuss ideology need to debate perspectives, and that does not include just ignoring their arguments are stupid "selfish leaders".
I can just as easily retort that, from their perspectives, Saber is by far the most selfish leader there lol. And you would understand that, if you had put away personal bias and tried to understand where they are coming from. To call them out on the basis of selfishness is actually hilarious, given that their entire critique is about how a closer look shows her righteousness to be selfish in nature and self-defeating in the long term for her people.
respond to him you fool
alexander is not a tyrant per se as he allows his entire kingdom to live vicariously through himself.
He is just that natural dominating, and lived in an era of kings, but its telling his phantasm is his loyal men.
No he's a tyrant, it's part of being a selfish greedy leader
Video Essays like this are the problem with Analyzing Fate/Zero while ignoring it's status as a Prequel. The most Evil character don't Win in the end because the narrative wants to vindicate anything about them, like Revenge of The Sith it's so the real Heroes beat them later. Fate/Zero is not taring down Saber's ideology but her confidence in it because Fate/Stay Night is about her faith in them being restored. Also if you'd seen UNW first you would know Weaver does return to the Clocktower.
But what annoys me most is when people analyze Lancelot in Zero while ignoring that Zouken messed with his summoning, he's not actually Insane because of anything about how Artoria ruled but because Zouken forced the Berserker class on him. And Saber didn't punish him for the affair with Guinevere because she didn't view as a Sin in the first place, again Stay Night players know she is fully capable of being down for a Poly relationship.
You at least are not simping for Rider as hard some other fans out there are. But still even suggesting he's more right Saber is a problem considering his world view is Fascism.
The Grail Dialogue revolved around how these 3 Kings answer 2 different questions. In my view the most correct answer is the position absent form the conversation, that a Leader should serve their people but as one of them not standing alone.
calling his world view fascism shows that you know nothing of fascism. Both monarchy and fascusm are authoritarian governments, but they are nothing alike. Not only that but Iskandar's actions during his life didnt only include his people but even the conquered. His position against Saber feels more like a contrarian statement than his actual belief that he is a tyrant or anything of the shorts. yes he has to be the personification of the extremes of all things but that also includes the good aspects as well. yes he is the most jealous but he can be the most loving as well. people cherrypick his statements based ont he words alone but they miss the entire message. Yes he is the most greedy but he has shown with his life that he was the most generous as well. yes he was the king of conquerors but he didnt humiliate his subjects, he went and included them and inspired them to join him as well. Fascism is nothing of those things. Iskander promotes inclusivity in pursuing ones dream for something better, fascism promotes one group above all else in the cost of everybody else for a short term dream. Iskander's empire fell soon after his death but it still fired an age of prosperity and technological/scientific/cultural advancements as result of the conquest itself. A fascist ideologically person would have burned everything to the ground. ofcourse thats still a surphase level understanding of the difference of the 2 positions.
@@PELLIOTIS The fact that your main arguments agaisnt Iskandar being Fascist is simply that he wasn't Racist shows how limited your understanding of Fascism is. Nazism was actually the most Atypical Fascism.
I liked Saber, she is still my waifu after all. However her ideals sickened me and when she was berated by Iskandar and laughed at by Gilgamesh to the point that her face is filled with despair it filled me with glee, her ideals are getting verbally torn down right in front of her and all i was thinking back then was "Good, let me see her suffer more. Learn from your mistakes or better yet, break down".
And then what do you know, Lancelot vs Artoria happened and her sad face of seeing what Lancelot turned into filled me with even more glee
I can't say it filled me with glee, but the arc crafted to break down her ideals, capped off with that fight was downright amazing
I mean out of the three of them artoria was the ideal king, and her ideals aren't wrong camelot is prove of that, a 10 year utopia that would have kickstarted a new age of gods, which was unfortunately destroyed by morgan, and if that wasn't enough the world itself made camelot into a quantum time lock, so its going to be destroyed no matter what.
Lets quote richard for a bit
"Well, there was one thing our Knight King lacked compared to the others. Her voice was too small! I would approve and deny any king's intentions! After all, it's natural for who was born in a different land, in a different time to have their own royal intentions! But the guy who said "I was the one who was right!" at the end was strong. He reminded me of that Crusader, Phillip.
Not glee but its annoying, and probably intentional so. That she has to se what drives her, not what she thinks she has to be, with all responsibility for her role. Probably why she berates shiro so much too. Its even theme in in ubw.
exept every story of her is difrent so your point dosen't count just as well she rulled for ten years sho she was right nope by that logic staling ruled longer than her and he was right nope @@KohakGaming1000
FIRST
This is a true statement
I still side with Ishkandar