Well, way back in the day when the 7'9" Orvis 2wt came out, we all had leaders who were not turning over. Well, the butt sections were way too thick. Lefte Kreh told us that the rod is a great fishing rod, but start your leaders with a 0.15 butt section. At the time, it dawned on me that 0.23 butt sections on the leaders I was buying were too heavy for the 4 and 5-weight fly lines I fish. I found that 0.19 was about right or 20 lb amnesia. It stands to reason that what Flip is doing with saltwater leaders makes sense. I wanted tight loops in my trout fishing so I could put the fly where I needed it to be. It was all by accident, having the first 2 wt and going to a TU dinner, Lefty was there to answer questions. 1984 was a good year. We need leader gauges; they have just disappeared in the last few years.
Lefty was the one who taught this to both Flip and Brian. The 2wt stories are legendary and changed everything for many. Stay tuned for leader gauge......Brian's got one in the works!
Your comment got me to thinking. Do you think that too much thickness (air resistance) specifically and not so much the weight of the butt section is what caused difficulty with the 2 wt? I don’t have a 2 wt, but have a 3 wt that I use specifically for dry or light dry dropper. For this I use a light version floating Airflo poly leader. This leader casts beautifully with a WF line and I think it could be because of the weight of this leaders butt section-not sure about the width. This leader is sort of an extension of the fly line and I believe it allows you to cast a bigger dry than you normally could with a 3 wt. The only downside is that it might not be as delicate as you’d like on some really flat, fussy water. I’ve been fishing these Airflo leaders for close to 30 years, but don’t think they’re too widely used. Brian likes them - he has a video about them. 😊
BEST VIDEO EVER This is mind-blowing. People think I'm crazy. I have been tying my own leaders for years now. If I wanted a 6 lb tippit I would start with a 12 lb but about 3' then 8 lb 3' with a 6 lb 3' tippet for a 9' leader. It works but not as clean as I like and it was harder to go past the 9 feet of leader, been doing it for pan fish and small bass like 12" - 14". Last summer I started going after bigger bass. I have like 3' of 20 lb then I drop to 12 lb for 6' it works but not clean at all. I'm going to start using this math formula for now on. I can't wait to get back on the water next week and set up my line like this. Thank you for putting this up on TH-cam I use a 5wt 9' fly rod people tell me it's too small and they are right, but I love a good fight.
Happy 30th MRO! Thank you SO much for this particular video. Huge help showing the wrong butt section material and how to test it. Can't wait for the book...it's been a LONG time coming!
Makes a LOT more sense than matching up the leader but to the line end in thousandths. Looking forward to trying this out on the 6wt smallie rig next summer.
Watching your tutorial videos since I took up fly fishing back in 2020 and loved them all! Can’t wait to use this formula for streamers! Looking forward for the videos on nymphs and dry flies, and of course the book!!!
A fundamental change in leader design! All the great past instructors I recall reading and studying from like Whitlock, Kreh, Murray, and Humphries including some well fished and knowledgeable old TU friends now deceased, favored Mason Tackle mono for building leaders. Still producing all types of quality lines in Otisville, Michigan. Works great for me and very affordable bulk spools. Yes to other brand loyalty of quality goods like Maxima, Ande, Rio, Cortland etc., but USA made not import will only continue if we buy it and keep them in business. Perrine and Martin are no more because of the influx of new angler's supporting cheap knockoff of now gone icons and great products from American made fly fishing. Tight lines!
Hi Brian, You’ve got my attention. I started surf fishing with a 9wt this year and I was using a rio striper intermediate lumalux with a rio 16lb striper leader. I am new to heavier equipment so I’m learning. I seemed to have trouble with the leader rolling out. I shortened it a little , made allowance for a 2’ tippet and it made a huge difference! I’m gonna lose the loop to loop and try tying my own leader. Thank you for the advice and information. I’ll have to figure out what diameter will work best. Keep up the great work
45 years ago my Scottish Grandfather taught me this leader tapering system. His lessons were to ensure the kinetic energy of the backcast transfers to the team of flies.
Great video. Can't wait for the Streamer, Nymph and Dry Fly leaders as that is what I fish exclusively. Brian, hurry up with those other videos and especially the book. Are you taking preorders??
Seems like that snell knot flip suggested is half the length of the blood knot suggested later on. Definitely something to think about and compare. Blood knot may have more strength but you don't need that strength in the butt section.
So I think it's a good thing I got a Mike Rite a couple of years ago. It looks like they're getting really hard to find. Please get your book out soon Brian, I want one before I die. The question I have now is what tippet to use with what fish and fly? Keep the good stuff coming.
@@johnnylightning1491 Thanksnfor watching. He does have plenty of videos on choosing tippet based on the fly/fish. Can also call him or email him with any questions. He’s always happy to help!
I recall Mike Holt, owner of the venerable “Fly Fishing Only” fly shop in Fairfield, Maine taught me how to make what he called a “hard/soft” leader that was built with 2 types of Maxima mono. That could turn bigger flies but still give you a chance at more delicate presentations. I wish I could find that formula that was just jotted down on a scrap of paper more than 20 years ago. There is rarely a day on the water that I don’t regret not having that. If anyone has any suggestions I would grateful for any insights!
Brian, how would you factor in a wire leader to this formula as a tippet section? I love the in-depth leader build you and Flip have developed, absolutely awesome. Wire is essential for my musky fishing, I typically run a 60lb butt section straight to a 40lb wire connected by a small barrel swivel to reduce line twist. Overall eader length is between 3' and 6' depending on the desired sink rate. Thoughts?
Thank you very much for your explanation. It is very interesting. I have a question if I have a 9 foot 5leader with a weight forward five fly line and I have to find the correct but section can I take the leader and do the test for the butt and if it does not match correctly, I cut the piece from the leader until I find the right match of the bbutt leader can I do it this way? I know the leader get short but I can extend the tippet. Let me know. Greetings from Holland
Does this formula work for 4 or 5 weight WF floating line for stream trout? If it does, you are going to be real popular with tapered leader manufacturer's .
If you are casting a bulky streamer, yes. If you are casting dries or sight nymphing, no. Well, it will straighten, but too much, which means instant drag.
You can actually use the "collapse" effect he talks about with a butt section too thin compared to the fly line between 2 leader sections to create a "pile" of tippet to reduce drag.
@@Madriveroutfitters Yes, I was about to delete my comment. I commented too early. I will make the 2 hour drive to your store to get a reel and line. And a Montauk Monster. I would rather buy the reel and line in the store to get some information while I shop.
Great video. However, you never discuss the connection between the tippet and the mid-section other to say it is a blood knot. Using a blood knot does not allow for easy replacement of the tippet. If the tippet is blood knotted to the mid-section then when you cut off the blood knot you then remove some of the mid-section. Doing so defeats the "no leader change" concept. Maybe I am confused. Would not be the first time. Look forward to hearing from you.
I don't use leaders or fly line!😮 I use 4x mono down to a tippet ring and 6x from there, to a double nymph rig .color in a sighter with a paint marker. You need to do a video with George Daniels, and Devon Olson. Dom from troutbitten is the godfather of the mono rig. You need to get these guys on the channel
If you watch Peter Charles’ videos (hooke4lifeca), you’ll notice how he appreciates long leaders and the reason behind it. I do tight-line nymphing 90% time. But I still build tapered leaders for drys and streamers. It all depends on the situation. For instance, you can’t cast far enough with euro nymphing setup nor you can deliver a fly under the tree branches with it. But with a normal fly line and tapered leaders, you can side cast a rod and deliver a fly under the low tree branches. I always carry two rods. One is with normal fly line setups and the other is my euro nymphing setup.
You keep saying you never have to change your leader. How are you attaching your tippet / flies without needing to cut them off and shorten your tippet?
@@wmandel1 Just add more tippet? Then add more mid when needed. Then eventually add more butt when needed. He only carries spools of material….never a pre-made leader. Feel free to call him or email him with any further questions.
I have been using micro swivels at the end of my mid sections for nymph, or streamer leaders. I haven’t noticed any noticeable hinging and the fish don’t seem to mind.
I think “never change your leader” is more referring to the formula and rather than literally never changing your leader. Even the best caster who never loses a fly has to change a leader due to abrasion or just degradation over time. Even so, with a 9ft butt section you could retie mids and tippets for a super long time before you ever used up the butt if you tie efficient knots.
This video is by fall the best i have seen on leader construction, thank you
@@JerryJohnson-j1l Thanks for being here.
Well, way back in the day when the 7'9" Orvis 2wt came out, we all had leaders who were not turning over. Well, the butt sections were way too thick. Lefte Kreh told us that the rod is a great fishing rod, but start your leaders with a 0.15 butt section. At the time, it dawned on me that 0.23 butt sections on the leaders I was buying were too heavy for the 4 and 5-weight fly lines I fish. I found that 0.19 was about right or 20 lb amnesia. It stands to reason that what Flip is doing with saltwater leaders makes sense. I wanted tight loops in my trout fishing so I could put the fly where I needed it to be. It was all by accident, having the first 2 wt and going to a TU dinner, Lefty was there to answer questions. 1984 was a good year. We need leader gauges; they have just disappeared in the last few years.
Lefty was the one who taught this to both Flip and Brian. The 2wt stories are legendary and changed everything for many. Stay tuned for leader gauge......Brian's got one in the works!
Your comment got me to thinking. Do you think that too much thickness (air resistance) specifically and not so much the weight of the butt section is what caused difficulty with the 2 wt? I don’t have a 2 wt, but have a 3 wt that I use specifically for dry or light dry dropper. For this I use a light version floating Airflo poly leader. This leader casts beautifully with a WF line and I think it could be because of the weight of this leaders butt section-not sure about the width. This leader is sort of an extension of the fly line and I believe it allows you to cast a bigger dry than you normally could with a 3 wt. The only downside is that it might not be as delicate as you’d like on some really flat, fussy water. I’ve been fishing these Airflo leaders for close to 30 years, but don’t think they’re too widely used. Brian likes them - he has a video about them. 😊
@ Thanks for watching. Please send any and all questions directly over to Brian and he’ll be happy to help!
BEST VIDEO EVER This is mind-blowing. People think I'm crazy. I have been tying my own leaders for years now. If I wanted a 6 lb tippit I would start with a 12 lb but about 3' then 8 lb 3' with a 6 lb 3' tippet for a 9' leader. It works but not as clean as I like and it was harder to go past the 9 feet of leader, been doing it for pan fish and small bass like 12" - 14". Last summer I started going after bigger bass. I have like 3' of 20 lb then I drop to 12 lb for 6' it works but not clean at all. I'm going to start using this math formula for now on. I can't wait to get back on the water next week and set up my line like this. Thank you for putting this up on TH-cam I use a 5wt 9' fly rod people tell me it's too small and they are right, but I love a good fight.
Thanks for being here and please stay tuned.....more episodes to come in this "mini series".
Such a great tutorial, it all makes perfect sense now. You guys are making this stuff exciting to learn, thank you
Thanks for being here!
Happy 30th MRO! Thank you SO much for this particular video. Huge help showing the wrong butt section material and how to test it. Can't wait for the book...it's been a LONG time coming!
Thanks so much and thanks for watching. Stay tuned!
What a great explanation of the Bell curve trail for the leader. I'm really looking forward for the "End of the Line". WayneO
@@waynespringer4328 Thanks for being here and please stay tuned.
This video open my mind about dry fly fishing with my 3 wt dt fly line, thank you greetings from Poland
@@patrickbejtmen11 Thanks for being here!
Wow nice job on innovating the game of fly fishing. Appreciate the hard work you’ve put in to make things better! ✊🏽 Excited for your book too!
Thanks for watching!
Makes a LOT more sense than matching up the leader but to the line end in thousandths. Looking forward to trying this out on the 6wt smallie rig next summer.
@@roberthoffhines5419 Thanks for watching!
Watching your tutorial videos since I took up fly fishing back in 2020 and loved them all! Can’t wait to use this formula for streamers! Looking forward for the videos on nymphs and dry flies, and of course the book!!!
@@petemartin3612 Thanks for watching!
A fundamental change in leader design! All the great past instructors I recall reading and studying from like Whitlock, Kreh, Murray, and Humphries including some well fished and knowledgeable old TU friends now deceased, favored Mason Tackle mono for building leaders. Still producing all types of quality lines in Otisville, Michigan. Works great for me and very affordable bulk spools. Yes to other brand loyalty of quality goods like Maxima, Ande, Rio, Cortland etc., but USA made not import will only continue if we buy it and keep them in business. Perrine and Martin are no more because of the influx of new angler's supporting cheap knockoff of now gone icons and great products from American made fly fishing. Tight lines!
@@sidneyjackson57 Thanks for watching.
🥰🥰🥰 Love watching your videos I learn so much, thanks 🤩🤩🤩
Thanks for being here.
ill tell ya what, you fixed my problem on my poles, my lines go through the top eye a a lot thank you 🙂
Thanks for watching.
Hi Brian, You’ve got my attention. I started surf fishing with a 9wt this year and I was using a rio striper intermediate lumalux with a rio 16lb striper leader. I am new to heavier equipment so I’m learning. I seemed to have trouble with the leader rolling out. I shortened it a little , made allowance for a 2’ tippet and it made a huge difference! I’m gonna lose the loop to loop and try tying my own leader. Thank you for the advice and information.
I’ll have to figure out what diameter will work best. Keep up the great work
Thanks for watching. Feel free to e-mail or call Brian if any questions. He's always happy to help.
Great Vid. Keep them coming.
Thanks for watching. As long as folks keep supporting the shop, we'll keep making videos!
45 years ago my Scottish Grandfather taught me this leader tapering system. His lessons were to ensure the kinetic energy of the backcast transfers to the team of flies.
@@gmckayak Thanks for watching! Smart man.
Great video. Can't wait for the Streamer, Nymph and Dry Fly leaders as that is what I fish exclusively. Brian, hurry up with those other videos and especially the book. Are you taking preorders??
@@magsvt81 Thanks for watching!! Feel free to contact Brian directly on the book question.
Seems like that snell knot flip suggested is half the length of the blood knot suggested later on. Definitely something to think about and compare. Blood knot may have more strength but you don't need that strength in the butt section.
Thanks for watching. Snell is for butt to fly line. Blood knots attach the sections of mono. Two different knots for different uses.
So I think it's a good thing I got a Mike Rite a couple of years ago. It looks like they're getting really hard to find. Please get your book out soon Brian, I want one before I die. The question I have now is what tippet to use with what fish and fly? Keep the good stuff coming.
@@johnnylightning1491 Thanksnfor watching. He does have plenty of videos on choosing tippet based on the fly/fish. Can also call him or email him with any questions. He’s always happy to help!
best service and knowledge
Thanks for being here.
Will your book also be published in Dutch?
@@jds4935 Don’t believe Brian speaks any Dutch. Highly unlikely? Feel free to reach out to him though?
I recall Mike Holt, owner of the venerable “Fly Fishing Only” fly shop in Fairfield, Maine taught me how to make what he called a “hard/soft” leader that was built with 2 types of Maxima mono. That could turn bigger flies but still give you a chance at more delicate presentations. I wish I could find that formula that was just jotted down on a scrap of paper more than 20 years ago. There is rarely a day on the water that I don’t regret not having that. If anyone has any suggestions I would grateful for any insights!
@@paullsmith1867 Stay tuned for that formula! Can also call Brian…he can help.
Brian, how would you factor in a wire leader to this formula as a tippet section?
I love the in-depth leader build you and Flip have developed, absolutely awesome.
Wire is essential for my musky fishing, I typically run a 60lb butt section straight to a 40lb wire connected by a small barrel swivel to reduce line twist.
Overall eader length is between 3' and 6' depending on the desired sink rate.
Thoughts?
@@DustinHinds-vq4he Thanks for watching. Stay tuned….that’s coming, or you can call or e-mail Brian as he states. He’s always happy to help!!
i never used the loop to loop idea.. just sneel knots to the fly line, but only 10 to 12 inchs long.. then the tapered leader
Thanks for watching.
How does this work with a tarpon leader as you want a heavier bite tippet and still have an IGFA mid section?
Add a bite tippet? Feel free to call or e-mail Brian at the shop with any further questions. He's always happy to help.
Thank you very much for your explanation. It is very interesting. I have a question if I have a 9 foot 5leader with a weight forward five fly line and I have to find the correct but section can I take the leader and do the test for the butt and if it does not match correctly, I cut the piece from the leader until I find the right match of the bbutt leader can I do it this way? I know the leader get short but I can extend the tippet. Let me know. Greetings from Holland
Thanks for watching! Please send your questions over to Brian directly via e-mail and he will be happy to help.
@ thanks but can you help me with his email?
@ Always below in the video description but here it is: admin@madriveroutfitters.com
Does this formula work for 4 or 5 weight WF floating line for stream trout? If it does, you are going to be real popular with tapered leader manufacturer's .
@@leighj8885 Works for any “contact” style leaders. For trout that would be streamers.
If you are casting a bulky streamer, yes. If you are casting dries or sight nymphing, no. Well, it will straighten, but too much, which means instant drag.
You can actually use the "collapse" effect he talks about with a butt section too thin compared to the fly line between 2 leader sections to create a "pile" of tippet to reduce drag.
@ Stay tuned for the episode on dry fly leaders. Coming soon! Thanks.
@@sambale6276 This formula is for “contact”’fishing as Brian describes. Be sure to see part 1 of this video as well.
There is a loop at the end of Brian's fly line. How did that get passed Flip?
@@dmm3124 Didn’t they cut it off in the video?
@@Madriveroutfitters Yes, I was about to delete my comment. I commented too early. I will make the 2 hour drive to your store to get a reel and line. And a Montauk Monster. I would rather buy the reel and line in the store to get some information while I shop.
Thanks😉☕️☕️👍
Thanks for watching!
Great video. However, you never discuss the connection between the tippet and the mid-section other to say it is a blood knot. Using a blood knot does not allow for easy replacement of the tippet. If the tippet is blood knotted to the mid-section then when you cut off the blood knot you then remove some of the mid-section. Doing so defeats the "no leader change" concept. Maybe I am confused. Would not be the first time. Look forward to hearing from you.
Thanks for watching. Feel free to e-mail or call Brian at the shop. He'll be happy to help.
I don't use leaders or fly line!😮 I use 4x mono down to a tippet ring and 6x from there, to a double nymph rig .color in a sighter with a paint marker. You need to do a video with George Daniels, and Devon Olson. Dom from troutbitten is the godfather of the mono rig. You need to get these guys on the channel
Clearly a different subject! They are not talking nymph fishing here....Thanks for watching though.
@@Madriveroutfitters Exactly. This is not about contact nymphing or mono rigs.
If you watch Peter Charles’ videos (hooke4lifeca), you’ll notice how he appreciates long leaders and the reason behind it. I do tight-line nymphing 90% time. But I still build tapered leaders for drys and streamers. It all depends on the situation. For instance, you can’t cast far enough with euro nymphing setup nor you can deliver a fly under the tree branches with it. But with a normal fly line and tapered leaders, you can side cast a rod and deliver a fly under the low tree branches. I always carry two rods. One is with normal fly line setups and the other is my euro nymphing setup.
@ Exactly! Thanks for backing us up here!
Does this work for trout leaders?
You keep saying you never have to change your leader. How are you attaching your tippet / flies without needing to cut them off and shorten your tippet?
I am wondering if a tippet ring would help?
@@croc1988 I’m curious about the same thing
@@wmandel1 Just add more tippet? Then add more mid when needed. Then eventually add more butt when needed. He only carries spools of material….never a pre-made leader. Feel free to call him or email him with any further questions.
I have been using micro swivels at the end of my mid sections for nymph, or streamer leaders. I haven’t noticed any noticeable hinging and the fish don’t seem to mind.
I think “never change your leader” is more referring to the formula and rather than literally never changing your leader. Even the best caster who never loses a fly has to change a leader due to abrasion or just degradation over time. Even so, with a 9ft butt section you could retie mids and tippets for a super long time before you ever used up the butt if you tie efficient knots.
so good guys. flip is a hard mf
Thanks for watching!