Hey all! I put up a community post about a piece that offered a critique to this video which seems to have gone missing (thanks, TH-cam) Anyway, having had a few days to reflect on it and digest it, I decided to move it here and write out a more fleshed out message - and maybe write a bit about how the sausage is made, so to speak. I put the piece in the description if you wanna read. I still broadly stand by this video, and the conclusions I drew in it. I still find Terraces paper a more compelling case than not; and there are bits of the critique I disagree with. But the piece highlighted a few shortcomings that I feel are valid and worth including here. The first is the lack of any real substantive analysis of behavioural linguistics - and I've had a few non-Chompsky linguists reach out to me about it and their chats have been very eye opening. The second, more important one in my opinion, was about the implicit ableism in the ways I talked about language and language acquisition; especially with regards to neurodivergence. The framing question of the video was "why were we trying to teach these animals how to talk?" and the answer I leaned towards was a more philosophical one: the idea that animals generally (apes especially) were viewed as lesser versions of people. People got bored with Clever Hans when it was revealed Hans was using his owner's body language cues to determine the right answer to a maths puzzle. Hans' ability to count had little to do with his capacity for understanding human speech or mathematics, and everything to do with his ability to read human behaviour. That's a form of intelligence! It's theory of mind! It's interpreting the signals someone else is giving off, and then using your own brain to decode that and find meaning! It's not language, but it is a very powerful form of communication But its not one we found valuable. Ape communications seemed to have the undercurrent of humans - like Prometheus with Fire - will give them language so they may transcend the constraints of their animal selves, and be more like us. For we: we are the God species. This view - in my opinion - justified all manners of abuse and mistreatment, because we couldn't see animals -- like Koko, like Nim, like Kanzi -- for who they were. Where this breaks down is in the ways I considered, or rather didn't consider, neurodivergence. I didn’t think about how the research I cited centres and reinforces neurotypical, non-disabled experiences; I wasn't careful enough to make it clear that people who don't have what would be considered typical linguistic levels, or don't have typical styles of communication, are still full humans who deserve to be treated with love, respect, and dignity; and I implicitly reinforced those problematic ideas and notions. Many neurodiverse people don't show certain hallmarks or traits Terrace wanted to observe in Nim, and Terrace himself, I learned recently, was deeply dismissive of atypical kinds of communication. He echoed the view of others who viewed autistic patients as lesser people, rather than full people. I don't think I need to explain why that's problematic. All people are full people. It was baggage I brought to the table, and it should have been baggage I was more introspective about. It’s an area I should have walked more carefully, and looked at through a more nuanced lens. I should have been conscious of the fact I don't have the best filters for seeing those kinds of connections. I can’t imagine they were the only person to feel this way, and I wanted to thank them for their feedback, and apologise for reinforcing those kinds of ideas. It matters that we're critical of those kinds of ideas. Because they're used as grounds to sterilise and kill disabled people. And they're not ideas that should be reinforced implicitly. As they say in the critique: “Ideas have power, wield them with care” I’ll try and wield with more care moving forwards.
A firm rejection of behavioral linguistics does not imply ableism. You can absolutely put language on a cognitive pedestal, claim that it's a qualitatively different form of communication (and not just communication) without stripping *anyone* of their dignity. Most scientists in the field do just that. Maybe you didn't have a chance to read it, but you got a lot of feedback on this community post. Much of it was critical of this piece: its factual errors, its thinly veiled condescension and the simple fact that it accuses you of making a claim that can only be uncovered through layers of interpretation. You could turn this whole argument around and claim that this behaviorist critique distorts the differences between disabled people and apes in order to project that onto your discussion. Your self-reflection is one thing, and it's commendable, but the "implicit ableism" in this video is in the eye of the beholder, it's two steps removed from your discussion (who cares what the author of the research you cite believed?) and depends on baseless assumptions about the contents of your mind.
There absolutely should be some hard line to define human level intelligence. I feel like this gets too close to “pro-life” arguments about how every bundle of cells is some unique human being. Obviously disabled people and animals should be treated with respect, but this starts to cross the line into preachy territory.
@Ramanuj Sarkar Ironically, you repeated this pattern of uncharitable interpretation I tried to outline, even with respect to that carelessly worded comment. I claim that humans have two legs. According to your reasoning, this makes me ableist, because I deny humanity to those humans who are legless. *You commit a simple error of equivocation between the human species and the humanity of an individual.* Those are two completely different concepts. I didn't make that error (from context it is clear that I meant the species), you did. Therefore your accusation of ableism depends on baseless assumptions.
My Cat is smart and is capable of human communication. I asked him who was the communist former president of the People's Republic of China and he replied "Mao".
Another thing worth looking into on this topic is the "Clever Hans effect" - animals can pick up on subconscious cues to deduce what a human wants them to do, even if the human isn't consciously aware that they're giving cues at all. It's named after Hans, a horse who could supposedly answer math questions by tapping his hoof as many times as the answer. In reality he was detecting how his handler would ever-so-slightly tense up and then relax once Hans got to the correct number, so he would know when to stop to make his handler happy. The effect was discovered because Hans was unable to correctly answer questions that the handler themself did not know the answer to, so they would not give off any cues for him to pick up on.
That's actually more interesting to me than the horse being able to do math. That shows the horse is able to pick up very subtle cues from the human handler, that even we would not notice in eachother normally. Rather than showing an area where the animal is good, I suspect it might show we have something of a blind spot.
@@deathhog Yeah, unfortunately this is also how most drug-sniffing dogs are trained. They alert on anything or any one they think their handler wants them to.
This reminds me of a story I read online where a cat knew when their owner was thinking about getting a specific food from their kitchen that the cat wanted. I don't exactly remember, but it was told as something like the owner thinking of "chicken thoughts" vs "ice cream thoughts". The cat knew when the owner was thinking of chicken and would run over and meow for chicken, but when they thought of ice cream while getting chicken the cat didn't notice.
@@deathhog Same here. I think the real studies should be on the bond between humans and animals. Why the animals like us so much, how are they able to develop these skills to understand what we want, etc
And I'm about to be a buzz kill just like the original video and tell you that Pavlov wasn't just a behaviourist feeding dogs. He massacred and tortured hundreds of dogs for their stomach fluids. "Lighten the mood" and "Pavlov" should never be in the same sentence.
pretty sure koko’s handler just committed too much into teaching koko language that by the time she realised her all her effort was futile she was neck deep in copium
I think she could have been buying what she herself was selling at some point. She was 24 when she acquired the gorilla and spent the next 45 years with her. She never married and never had children and it was clear she had a parent-child relationship with Koko and her life revolved around her. If you already go into it thinking teaching a gorilla to sign is possible, it's easy to justify some cherry picking and confirmation bias and selective interpretations. Look at the extent we all anthropomorphize our pets but turn it up by a thousand
We’ve spent so much time trying to teach apes to communicate like us, but seeing as that was a huge failure, I wonder if anyone’s tried to learn how to communicate like they do.
@@immersa247 y’all definitely didn’t watch the whole thing. It was association, not language acquisition. Nim Chimsky didn’t know those words (it wasn’t Koko here) he just performed the hand gestures he knew would give him the treat. It’s like the rat that pushes the button to get the treat, it’s a much more complicated button… but it isn’t language.
@@gregpenismith8884 maybe they ARE a tween who just learned some new concepts, albeit imperfectly, and now they're motivated to discuss those concepts with strangers, albeit a bit smugly. That's a completely normal part of learning and growing up. Why let it bother you?
"Cows can have enemies". I always knew I couldnt trust that emotionless 1000 mile stare they have while they chew. They are actually plotting the downfall of their bovine rival.
I know it's a joke, but cows also form very strong emotional bonds (with each other and humans too). They even panic if they can't find their friends and such. Tbh even chicken do, they get stressed when they can't find their friends and often stay with the dead body of their friend for hours or even days
22:21 I used to work as a special Ed teacher of non verbal teens and one of the strategies we were trained to use to teach them to communicate was that we should make sure a variety of people work with the students when teaching communication. The fact koko could only do it around very familiar people says a lot actually.
I was watching this video with my Tortoises in the room and they honest to God scratched into their bedding, "I cannot believe people actually bought into gme gorilla that understands climate change thing. Gorillas just don't have the complex neuro circuitry required to comprehend such complex geopolitical issues." So proud of them.
Those are usually true though. Just this morning I was rescuing shelter kittens for adoption when my 2 year old comes in and says "is Hegels earlier works on dialectic theory a practical philosophical proposition, or merely an abstract post-hoc continental rationalization for historical patterns that aren't really there?" I am always so amazed by what kinds of things my kids will say!
My little girl was talking to me about this the other day and said: "Father why do people project their behavior onto animals who in reality behave differently and deserve to be respected and understood rather than understand us? Isn't mankind capable of understanding animals as separate beings that perform better in other neural tasks humans themselves sometimes aren't capable of ?". She's 3. She's also a german shepherd. She's so smart it blows my mind away.
But did she communicate this in DSL? (Doggie Sign Language) While of course still using modern English sentence structure and grammar, except where she didn't know a word, like neural, then she'd play a game of charades, like "sounds like plural, but related to the brain and cognitive though"?
Do you mean "german shepherd" as in the dog? Or actually a shepherd as in the trade and from Germany? Anyways, it seems your girl is bright. Congratulations.
On a dark humored note, this reminds me of that The Onion episode. "Scientists at Tulane University’s Primate Research Center announced they have taught a gorilla that some day it will die. [...] "When we first started with Quigley, we was just a normal happy ape [...]. The first thing we did was we taught him patterns like red block, blue block, green block over and over. Then it became a pattern of “gorilla born, gorilla grow, gorilla die” - over and over. The researchers then showed Quigley photographs of dead and dying gorillas while communicating the phrases: “You some day” and “No choice”. It took thousands of repetitions, but Quigley finally became cogniscent of corellation between himself and the decomposing pile of hair and flesh in the photo."
Social animals are truly intelligent!! We just must understand that their intelligence functions different than ours. They can communicate too! Just not with FORMAL LANGUAGE.. they don't have words or grammar. I train animals. They're so smart!!! But they're NOT PEOPLE.
I'm pretty sure Koko was just in a very simple and infantile way told that the Earth is dying/degrading/some quivalent and that it is being caused by humans. I don't think that it was anywhere mentioned that Koko actually knew specifically what climate change, just very loose pieces of information, enough so that she could formulate something that vaguely resembles when she demonstrated in that video, and then with the magic of editing, they made it the way it is.
@@pseudoplotinus I think even that's giving them too much benefit of the doubt. Remember, Koko isn't using ASL, but a specifically modified, simplified version of it. It's entirely possible that they just cut entirely random short sequences of signs from a two hours long recording session, and then smashed together the bits that looked "kind of right", and since they were the only ones who could "read" this modified ASL, they could pretty much write whatever caption they wanted under it.
@@Horvath_Gabor Very true and I don't disagree. But still there has got to be some level of humanesque language and formulation within the communication between Koko and her caretaker. The video basically presents the idea on the basis of absence of evidence, but that doesn't necessarily mean evidence of absence. The title has that little humble '(probably)' for a reason.
@@pseudoplotinus It was demonstrated in the video that Koko's caretakers went through some extreme mental gymnastics to explain some of her meaningless answers. Like how they claimed that when she signed "fine nipple" she meant "fine people", because the two words rhymed when spoken. Then, on top of that, factor in that ASL doesn't follow English syntax or grammar. Because of this, a lot of Koko's signs had to be "interpreted" by the caretakers. In other words, even if we presume all the good faith in the universe, it's entirely possible that Koko signed "plate, put away, stupid you", as an insult to the caretaker who took away her food and put her in front of the camera, but then they looked at the signs and went something like this:
It should be obvious to anyone that she's just repeating what handlers show her. And it's really unethical to put these words in her hands while claiming she can understand them
Jackson Galaxy (the cat guy) said that we shouldn't push a cat to speak by pushing buttons for us-we should listen to the cat and figure out their language. I understand that now. You can't really pattern your presumptions as if you were talking to another person and you will never really understand them unless we learn what they are expressing.
Just watched this video with my cat whom I've had for 14 years sprawled on my lap. I've wondered if button training could be useful, but your Jackson Galaxy quote made me think about it and realize, we can already tell each other everything we need to.
Teaching pets the word buttons can be positive as it provides mental stimulation (as do teaching them any tricks really). What's bad is when people rely on buttons to understand pets as opposed to watching the animal's natural methods of communication. I'm not sure if that's a common enough issue to worry about though. from what I noticed in people who teach their pets how to use these buttons, I don't see any of them neglecting the pet's needs when not communicated through the buttons.
Jackson Galaxy is determined his ideas and attitude towards cats is the only correct way to be around cats. While some of his ideas are correct and do wonders for helping cat owners he is not some cat god that knows everything. I have seen how one cat learned to tell her mom when she is sick or in pain leading to a vet visit that saved her life. Most cats when feeling ill go hide. That behavior in this case would have led to a dead cat. If you have the time and money teaching your cat to use the buttons 1) depends your relationship 2) allows direct communication as well as reading body language and behavior. I wish the buttons were around 14 years ago so I could have taught my cat so when her arthritis started she could have told me.
@@nikkiewhite476 No one's saying that button training is a bad idea, but it doesn't negate the need to learn to understand the body language/behavior of our companion animals. Even if they could learn to give complex messages via pressing buttons, it wouldn't erase their instincts or make their cognition more human. We, on the other hand, are very capable of learning their language.
@@nikkiewhite476 I think that training buttons that say "water" "outside" or "pain" would be very useful. But a lot of people on the internet want to train their pets to express emotions through buttons and that's stupid. Even we, humans, don't express anger by just saying "anger" with a deadpan face. If a cat is angry you can tell by their ears and tail, the buttons are completely useless in that regard.
When she says "But man stupid..." I genuinely expected that she would proceed with something along the lines of: "... Man stupid, man kill man. Man weak ! Ape not kill ape, APES TOGETHER STRONG ! PREPARE FOR WAR !"
Koko understood the human condition, and you can see it in her artwork. I could never come up with anything as poetic or moving as "PINK PINK STINK NICE DRINK"
The most ridiculous part of the story is that Koko's true communication skills were amazing enough -- they didn't need to be exagerated, which only served to call into question all of her accomplishments and possibly diminsh her legacy. Why is nothing ever good enough when it comes to (some ) humans?
probably because we're fascinated with finding life on our above our level and also because we want to see how we're unique due to our love for being unique and different
@@Guitcad1 cwbrooks5329 probably means that Koko's natural communication abilities as a gorilla are already fascinating and worth so much time and resources to study. They could have easily spent all that time researching how gorillas like Koko naturally communicate and try to better understand gorilla behavior, but instead it was a nearly 50 year circus act.
the ending hit hard. all i could think about was that my cat has been with me for 9 years and he never needed human communication to notice when i was sad or sick and needed comfort. and i never needed him to use words, he has his own kind of communication. i think we should value the ways in which animals communicate more.
I believe there was a lady who lived with gorillas by learning their behaviour and integrating into their society. MAybe that's fake too, but it seems to make way more sense than trying to teach a gorilla sign language.
They did, you can see the base is huge and quite heavy, they probably thought it was enough to avoid them tipping it over, never considered the little fat ass could just put all his weight on it and do it
yeah after koko's "appeal to humanity" i knew it was bs, theres no way a gorilla can grasp the ways humans destroy the earth or use symbolism like "i am nature"
It's a nice thought to think, but for an animal who can't sign proper sentences, she definitely wasn't speaking in metaphors like the caterpillar from Alice in Wonderland.
what bothers me more that while animals can't talk, they certainly can think and feel emotions. So while everyone was going gaga over her 'message', I'm thinking that throughout the whole time she was probably in extreme distress, having to make complex signs for basic things like food and water, not able to live in the wild among her own species or act according to her nature. She couldn't understand climate change. What she probably DID understand was that she was captive and alone, and likely could not understand why. You know, i've grown up watching a lot of pigeons, and I've learned one thing about animals: we tend to think of them as children, or babies...but they aren't. An adult animal is just that...an adult. And not 'stupid' either, but intelligent and well adapted for their environment. In other words, treating a grown ape like a child is not much different from treating a grown man like a child. Many of these animals kept as if they're children are basically emotionally stunted. Like, of course they get aggressive as they older. They're violent animals, just like humans.
As a disabled person, I have seen first hand how people who can’t or struggle to speak verbally get treated like infants or animals. I was dating someone my age who struggled to speak as a result of a traumatic brain injury. He was smart. As smart as me. He just had trouble actually speaking. But people who didn’t know him would hear him speak and instantly switch to baby voice. I even see it with myself. I’ll tell people I’m autistic and they’re like “but you’re so smart/outgoing/talkative?!” And what’s actually happening is their thinking “autism means stupid and barely human, this person in front of me isn’t that. I’m confused” and it pisses me off to no end.
yep. the way abled people treat disabled people is insane. even just missing a limb or using a wheelchair or, fucking, being short (which obvs isnt a disability i know) has people baby talking you. i saw two people having a conversation when i was in a cafe and idk what their relationship was but they clearly didnt know each other well because the guy was wearing full jeans and shoes and they were having a conversation and then he absently mentioned his prosthetic leg and the chick goes "ohhh ahahaha." and is quiet and then AUDIBLY starts talking in shorter sentences with simpler words and its so fucking rude.
* *Filming Koko's last words* * "Have we got it?" "Yes, we've got it." "Good. Shoot her before her last words are something dumb like Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you"*
He wanted an orange to eat. Seems he gained an _extremely_ basic idea that related a few signs to objects and actions and thats it. Much the same as a dog. And mainly related to food. Again like a dog. We can interpret that as him wanting an orange, because we have the intelligence to make the association, but the chimp isnt learning language, its learning to relate things the same way a dog associates "walkies" or "food" with these actions. Theres no understanding of grammar here. We would be better off using our intelligence to learn how to communicate with them on their level than trying to force them to communicate with us on ours. Humans have the intelligence to bridge the gap (maybe) animals dont.
@@fukkitful Elephants are extremely intelligent, possibly as clever as the Great Apes, Cetaceans such as Dolphins, Octopi and Corvines, all these creatures are very smart and have demonstrated problem solving ability and methods of communication between members of their own species, the problem comes in finding a form of interspecies communication, we have no frame of reference, and with things like Elephants and Cetaceans, it's possible they rely on forms of communication in frequencies our senses can't even detect. With Octopi it's even more difficult.
my cat cant talk but she has a specific gut wrenching meow that she only uses when a barrier she really doesnt want to be blocking her is blocking her because it makes me open doors really fast, she also has a meow that she does when she's really distressed when shes stuck outside, and a smug meow when i pet her a lot but shes super silent otherwise
You've been trained nicely. Good on you. My deaf white car Kenny had similar chirrups and roars as though he was on the brink of death sometimes waiting to be let inside- or if he woke up by accident in a room with a closed door. I was even worse because I'd locked him in the closet once and couldn't find the maaooowwww for about an hour. We were both in need of ambulances after that. It sounds like you've cat-crisis proofed your home now, which you could do a youtube video on.🙏🕊🌏💐🌹🎻🎵🔭📡🌼🏵🌻🔭📡
Apparently cats typically don’t communicate with each other via vocalization when feral/wild! Instead most communication is via scent and body language. When domestic or socialized with humans, they pick up young that humans typically understand/ react to things like meows and hissing more than scent or body language, and therefore ‘create’ a system of meows that their humans will understand means a certain thing, such as using a certain pitch or cant when they want/need food/attention etc. It tends to be personalized between their owners and them too! Which is really neat!!
It's not a very strong point, since many humans don't even afford empathy to other humans, who by definition have sentience. Empathy probably shouldn't be applied to absolutely every living thing that doesn't have sentience, either - a sponge for instance. Most behaviorists would agree complex life has sentience even if they don't have language.
Nobody seems to agree, to this day, on what the prerequisites for empathy should be. I think for most of us the answer is just: Does being mean to this thing make me feel bad? Not exactly a stellar criterion but it's likely our default mode as a species.
Pretty sure empathy doesn't have pre-requisites. We aren't doing a checklist before we feel for another being. Well, most of us. Do you? We learn empathy in our first years of life, and it's an emotional repsonse, not a logical one, which is why you can't learn it later.
@@themudpit621Empathy can also be a choice. For example, narcissists tend to withhold their sense of empathy as part of their defense mechanism, they choose, consciously and/or subconsciously, to either ignore it or just not experience it. Even non-narcissists tend to have extremely selective empathy in my experience, people will just choose not to have empathy for certain individuals or groups of individuals as doing so would challenge beliefs they hold or their ego or whatever else. Empathy isn't an entirely involuntary experience
@@icarus313 Well that's could be one of the main reasons why vegans don't eat anything animal but do eat plants, a plant is alive and it can feel but it's harder to feel empathy for a plant than animals like mammals,birds and others because they are closer to us in the biological sense, we see a pig screeching as it's about to get butchered and feel bad for him because we transport the same feelings of desperation to us imagining the same situation but with humans, but when we see multiples crops in a farm being chopped from their roots to be sold doesn't have the same effect because no one can actually relate to a plant.
@@crowe3301 It's like when you get 250K retweets on twitter so you just go "well, I can't replicate that banger, how am I supposed to keep posting now?"
@@ultimategotea him signing words is proof that he can't sign? you realize that he's not being taught in a college English 101 class (that would be stupid to attempt). his words are probably perfectly correct in the language he was taught.
Ive had dogs all my life, a thing I noticed is they recognised the word walkies, but if you say any random world with the same affliction you usually use to say walkies they'd respond the same. A friend who came to stay with me for a short while, she was able to give commands to the dog in Russian, the dog had never heard russian till she visited. The dogs never really recognised the word, just the way I'd say it. You see this with almost all dog owners, they never talk normally, "sit" is usually said in a authoritative tone. They listen to the tone, not the words.
Yep. One of my cats is an asshole (not really in the fun way) so whenever I cuss her out I use a cutesy tone because even if she's an asshole yelling at her won't help, just make her scared. But I still get to release my anger at her
I think they recognize the series of sounds, too, not just the tone. I taught all my cats to sit up and beg when I tell them "Say please." But one of them apparently associates sitting up as telling me he wants me to do something. One day he walked in my room and just kept doing the trick over and over. I was busy and not paying much attention for a minute or two. Then when I looked at him, he had swallowed half a string from the tulle on the Christmas tree and was telling me he needed help. I still think that's highly intelligent. I did get the string out.
@@hikkchikwell good for you, my friend’s cat did the same thing (swallowing a string), and my friend had to help her out too. The problem was that the string wasn’t sticking out of it’s mouth 💀💀💀
@@jitterygravy2829 Yeeeah...I went through that with a different cat and a piece of crochet thread. Disgusting. I was scared to pull it out, so I cut it, and later that day she passed the rest of it, thank God.
I had always assumed the researchers had some understanding of ASL. The audacity of trying to teach an animal to meaningfully communicate in a language you don’t know and ignoring native speakers (signers?)...
I know right! It honestly makes me wonder if part of the reason the apes can’t follow any grammar rules is bcs the humans signing around them aren’t properly following them. Granted a human child would actually start creating and applying rules themselves (that’s how creoles are created), but it does make me wonder if the results would be any different if those communicating with the Apes were actually fluent in sign language.
I wrote a short paper about this in my first year of uni and I never thought to question whether the researchers were fluent in sign language. It was so obvious to me that would have to, for the studies to make any sense. Since then, I've thankfully learnt to think about this kind of stuff a little more critically.
Her reference to the "failure" with Chimpsky is very telling. It wasn't a failure. They wanted to see if the chimp could talk and he couldn't. They got what they wanted out of the experiment, but she sees it as a failure because she wants so desperately for it to be able to talk. She is biased. It shouldn't matter about the bond the researcher has with the animal. When my kids were learning to talk, they were still able to be understood when meeting other family for the first time. It's not like because they didn't have the bond I had with them, they weren't able to be understood all of a sudden.
no, what she said is that the ape wouldn't talk if it didn't develop a bond. You can infer from there, but it's bad faith to do before. That is no better than what you say she is doing.
I see what you mean but also in one part of the "study" they gave Nim a cigar and he smoked it. So in a lot of ways it failed to even be an actual study and more just fuckin up the poor ape.
Language does not require bonds. Period. If they can only "communicate" with one person, they aren't communicating at all. They aren't learning a language.
Also I think the worst account was when they made a chimp,I believe, live in an apartment and behave like a human child. He became so frustrated and enraged that he was aggressive and destroying things. They eventually gave her to a sanctuary where he was rejected by others of his species because he was not raised around them and could not behave like them either.
This is not true. It was a MALE chimp and besides the expected problems, the mother of the family had a weird relationship with him, as she put it, “it wasn’t sexual, but it was very sensual.” Lady, WHAT??? There is a documentary called “Project Nim” about it.
@@asmodiusjones9563 Nin was a male chimp yeah but there was also another story about a female chimp who was kept in an apartment too. I will admit the guy got his story a little incorrect though, eventually the female chimp learned how to coexist with other chimps although was completely sexually confused and never ends up mating mating which is neither here nor there I suppose. She still had a fondness for her caretakers when they came to visit her one day giving them a goodbye hug. And then as Sam O'nella put it, she got "... poached like a fucking egg..." and all that was left behind was either her head and hands or her torso without her head and hands.
@@elliejelly8815 Of course they don't have the "right" vocal chords. Dolphins have been observed to have complex communications and their language/proto-language is through whistling. Language doesn't require vocal chords. We're communicating through language right now.
The same thing happened to a dolphin who they tried to teach language to using LSD. They ended up abandoning him in a bank vault full of water and he killed himself. Dolphins can choose to stop breathing if they get desperate/depressed enough and that's what he did. They may as well have released him into the ocean. The woman who had been taking care of him even masturbated him (f'n disgusting). So much animal abuse for no reason whatsoever.
One of the hardest laughs I ever had was watching a TV Documentary on Koko, getting 5 or 10 minutes into it, and realizing it was bullshit because everything she "said" was some variation of "put food in monke"
The weirdest part about speaking a language that one party in a conversation doesn't understand well is that the more skilled speaker almost always ends up speaking a really simplified pidgin with stripped-down ideas, almost as instinct. When you're on the receiving end of this, not only does it feel difficult to express yourself in a language you don't fully understand, but you are always aware that most people are going to express very limited thoughts and ideas to you in order to keep the conversation intelligible. It's incredibly isolating, and highlights exactly how important language is to our interactions and relationships with others.
I feel like it's an instinctual response to the sensation one would have to a baby/child they may not understand most complex words, ideas, or phrases (as they lack background knowledge) so you speak very slowly with clear diction, and use simple words and concepts to develop a foundation of communication. Typically, like how its brought up in the video, you're supposed to get reinforcement and corrections to build that foundation of communication. But if you don't have that time for correction, or reinforcement, it comes across as patronizing and demeaning. When most people may not even be aware they're doing that behavior, and if they are, may not even be aware they're coming across as condescending
When I saw Koko "talking" about fixing the earth I was sure that was bullshit A gorilla has trouble to learn new worlds and articulate simple phrases, but somehow was able to learn intricate complexies about world events?
That was simply a paid endorsement. It's no different from a celebrity doing a commercial. There was a script that Koko had to follow, and judging from all the cuts, was very extremely difficult to get Koko to sign through.
Yeah, and did you notice how she used the exact same repeated gesture that was somehow interpreted as being like, five different things? 2000 words my ass, scro.
If you go the original YT video the scariest part that you will find is people saying: "So what if it is the hoax? The message is still true!" There are six morale foundations that define how virtous a person is, one of them is purity or honesty. Leftists ie the group that cares about Climate Change lack it, so they don't care if their goal is achieved through a lie.
@@DzinkyDzink if we save the world through a lie, would it be justifiable? I believe so, even if I don't think this actually happen on the real world, unfirtunatelly, is not that simple to make the world better and a benign lie is actually bad in the long term, but I don't think is that absurd a person thinking Koko's speech isn't that bad because the message is true, they are wrong though, but you are framing as if they don't care about nothing and would do anything to achive their plans, you are just disingenuous my friend
I was in that 1998 AOL chat! I was 12, had read a lot about Koko, and was so excited that I was going to experience the gorilla that could "talk." Instead, to be in that chatroom was to realize that she couldn't. Every response from the gorilla seemed to be a total non-sequitur. I was so crushed, but at least I learned a valuable lesson about skepticism.
this and the dolphin experiment has taught me one thing, researchers are far too concerned with getting animals to communicate as humans rather than to understand how animals communicate as animals and with each other.
I'm know there's plenty of researchers who study how animals communicate with each other. But that's not getting headlines, that's not gonna make you famous.
@@daredaemon8878 Sapolsky (the guy rocking a full beard in the video) speaks about ethology in his lecturing series on Stanford's TH-cam channel. Ethology consists of interviewing the animals in their own language, so to speak.
dude animal planet shows that in every single episode they make, we already know how animals communicate, all of this is because they WANTED an animal to learn HUMAN speech. Why does no one get this? Soup literally says in the video that an animal just doesn't have what it takes to learn human language n the problem is there with the scientists, trying to make animals learn something they shouldn't even if they could one day.
Humans could try to breed other apes to communicate more like us. It might take a couple hundred years, but highly intelligent chimps is not difficult since they already have good brains.
My cat likes to stick things in the fan on my brother's computer. So my brother turned it off. So my cat realised he can sit on the bottom and turn it on. So now it gets turned off at the wall... For now 😂
I don't know much about Koko but the moment I saw the "final message" I went "Wow, that's complete bullshit". I genuinely thought you made up those subtitles because it's so on the nose.
Lmfao I felt almost insulted. I thought those were fake subtitles someone on the internet had slapped in there to get clout and that version was the one that had reached virality, but NO, IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE THE REAL THING
The cuts and the way she kept looking to the side made it look as if she was being told to sign those things (if what she was signing even matched up to the subtitles), it didn’t at all look genuine
19:25 this feels EXACTLY as when my dog can't figure out the exact command I'm giving him and just starts going through every trick he knows until one fits. I don't think this animal understands the meaning of those words any more than a child would suddenly understand a math equation they solved by inputting any combination of numbers they could until one was right.
I had a pet parakeet. I didn’t buy it at a store, it just flew to me one day and stayed. As far as domesticated birds go, it was extremely happy and content. Being a bird, he never showed affection in any way I could understand, until he got sick. He lost the use of his legs, meaning he could no longer perch and only drag his body with his beak. In the short time before he passed, I carried him everywhere. Each night he would lay on my chest and I’d pet him under his chin. He would only move to bring himself closer to my face. Other than that, he just closed his eyes and rested. It seemed like the next best thing to his usual energetic lifestyle was to be there. As tiny as he was, he seemed to fully grasp that he was cared for and loved, and he seemed to value it.
I once spent the summer at a place where they had one, she used to fly up to me while I was in bed and lay her little head against my cheek, I still miss that fucker
Patterson is a creep who regularly exposed herself to Koko, among other disgusting things that would get my comment nuked by youtube. The ape was so obsessed with that she'd refuse to participate in her language sessions until Patterson let Koko touch hers, or forced one of her poor female research assistants to do it instead. She was always forcing her female assistants to let Koko the poor women. That's what's happening here, Koko won't cooperate cuz she wants to someone, and Patterson made up that weak excuse so the people watching didn't find out the truth.
Imagine an English speaker trying to teach French, with ZERO knowledge of French or how it works, but they taught 'French' by simply using Google translate to translate single words and then just simply used French words in place of English ones, using the English systems of grammar, structure, etc....you would never get away with that
that's exactly what happened with the Scottish wikipedia lol a guy that had no knowledge of the Scottish language edited it for years causing confusion (maybe it's a different dialect?). The revelation was embarrassing to everyone involved.
@@klugg3389 I remember that reddit thread! It was terrible, even more so considering that traditionally Scots hasn't been respected as a dialect of English, and apparently some were using the abominable Scots language Wikipedia written by this American teen as "evidence" that it was "just English spelt wrong".
I tried learning sign language before. Nobody in my personal life requires signing in order to communicate, but when I was younger I worked in a cafe, and one of our regulars was deaf. Anytime he came in he'd gesture to borrow a pen and paper to write his order. One day I signed something I estimated to be "your regular today?" And the effort alone was enough to make him smile. Damage to my hands and fingers makes signing difficult for me, since I don't have good motion in my wrists, pinky or ring fingers, but it's still something I'd like to put more effort into when I can.
Oh I also learned some sign language to communicate with a regular as a barista ! Sometimes she would get a latte and sometimes an americano so I learned the basics, hello, have a nice day and to ask if she wanted milk or not. She was also very thankful
Why waste time trying to teach gorillas how to talk when we could instead be teaching them things like how to make fire? I dream of a world full of gorilla arsonists, and plan to one day make this vision a reality
If you want arson, teach it to chimpanzees. Some Chimps tore up a guy's face because he gave one of them a birthday cake which the others didn't get to share. _They attacked out of sheer jealously._ So yeah, if you want arsonist apes, teach it to chimps because they'll do it for the pettiest of reasons.
If you can find the short story `Bears Discover Fire', you might want to read it. One of the first things they use it for is to torch a trophy hunter's cabin.
@@thewhompingwampa2671 The day chimps learn how to make fire and use it will be the day when the world will legalise making a species extinct for the sole purpose of making them extinct
I remember first reading about Koko and thinking it was amazing. I especially remember the finger-bracelet = ring part which sounded pretty convincing. Then years later I read a transcript of one of her "conversations" and 90% of what she was signing was "koko love" "give treat nut" "eat give nut" "treat treat koko" "eat nut treat".
trick, nut, orange give treat, Koko treat give nut nut give Koko treat The darkness is coming, humans... Beware. Give me orange Koko nut orange give me you nut give me
My dog got hit with a random stroke around the last year of his life and it caused one half of his neck to become stiffened. He could barely walk and became even more sluggish. A lot of days, he would end up just laying down without doing much else. Except for the day when I came back home from college for summer break. When he saw me, he got up from his spot and waddled over to me while whining. My parents told me it was the most they’d seen him move since he got worse. My dog powered through his gradually dying body to greet me like he always did, and that gesture spoke more than a thousand words ever could. I don’t need a stupid dog button or butchered sign to feel the love he had in that moment.
No matter what people say, animals definitely do have the power to give, receive, and feel love. People who say it's just about reward and punishment haven't experienced things outside of a textbook. I hope your dogs last days were happy ones!
So many people are completely missing the point. The point of these experiments was not to determine if animals are "intelligent" or whether they have emotions or feelings. It had one point: could they learn to use language the way humans do? The answer is clearly no. And I'm sorry that so many of them were made to endure such horrible treatment for the sake of chasing a phantom.
Yeah there seems to be quite a few people antagonizing those that see potential in the study of animals being able to understand a human language. Nobody is gauging if something is sentient if it can understand humans.
OKAY IM NOT DONE THE VIDEO BUT AS FAR AS "THE LAST MESSAGE FROM KOKO TO MAN." IT SHOULDNT BE USED AS PROOF. THE REASON THEY USE SUCH TRANSAPANCY OF THE CREATION IS BECAUSE KOKO WAS HIRED AS A CUE ACTOR FOR THE FILM, MEANING THEY GAVE HER THE WORDS FOR THE FILM IN A COMMERCIAL SENSE. JUST LIKE YOU WILL HIRE A CELEB TO TALK ABOUT THESE TOPICS FOR YOUR COMMERCIAL BECAUSE THEY WERE FAMOUS. AND USUALLY THAT CELEB IS SOMEBODY THAT WE RECOGNIZE AS SOMEWHAT CLOSE TO THAT SUBJECT. LIKE A CELEBRITY THAT WAS IN A CAR ACIDENT DOING A DRUNK DRIVING COMMERCIAL. THEY MAY NOT HAVE BEEN HIT BY A DRUNK DRIVER BUT THEY WERE HURT IN A CAR ACCIDENT. IT TOUCHES PPL. SO JUST BECAUSE EVERYONE IS LOOKING FOR THE TRICKERY IN KOKO SPEAKING THEY ARE LOOKING TO HARD AND TOTALLY MISSING THE POINT OF THAT OUTREACH VIDEO. THEY WERE NOT IMPLYING THAT IT WAS KOKO'S OWN WORDS JUST THAT ITS MORE MEANINGFUL COMING FROM AN ANIMAL WHO CAN ACTUALLY TALK.
I agree with most of your message, but not on the conclusion that those experiments prove anything, even though it seems to be likely. There's too much of a methodological problem to draw any conclusion one way or another. That being said, I don't think we should repeat those if it means subjecting other apes to so many animal abuse.
The path to knowledge unfortunately has to have those things happen. Without testing things, we'd never be 100% certain. That's how we learned blood-letting was bad, among many other things
Ok to be fair, they werent necessarily attempting to teach an ape to speak to a deaf person. They just wanted to teach them language in a form they could use, i.e. using their body rather than their mouth. However, it does seem like learning ASL would aid greatly in their ability to develop a program to teach a person or animal a new language
@@skeetsmcgrew3282 Sure, but ASL isn’t just for deaf people. If the person who is learning it is mute, ASL makes communication a lot easier. Or, if the animal you are teaching has similar hands to humans, ASL would leave less room for interpretation than just using body language. Or, maybe just for the experiment, make your own sign language to remove confusion.
@@Odinsday apes lack the dexterity to use ASL though. The ape sign language Koko used was based on ASL, but modified to be possible for apes because they lack the slow twitch muscles humans have in their hands and arms, but have more fast twitch muscles. This is why they're so strong, but can't perform tasks like writing or other fine detail work.
@@Null_Experis that’s still not very good though, because I should think that having a person who knows ASL would be very helpful on the team, even if the language was modified for Koko. if the signs koko was taught were modified ASL, it’s still pretty important to have a person who knows ASL; they’re one step closer to “understanding” her, etc. Idk. All I’m saying is that it’s weird that they didn’t get like one person? Or learn some ASL? To cover their bases?
I'm thinking of the non-verbal intellectually disabled people I used to work with. When Myron wanted coffee, he'd walk over to the coffee pot, reach towards it, and make eye contact. I'd make the coffee and Myron would drink it. Then I'd write in the journal of what happened in the apartment that day as "Myron asked me to make coffee." When Sharon needed a maxi-pad, she'd make eye contact and place her hands in her crotch. I immediately understood her the very first time she did this with me. I provided the pad and she went into the bathroom to attend to her need. But my favorite example of Sharon's communication was when she kept trying to go into Judy's bedroom late one night. I put my hand on her arm and shook my head and said, "No. You're not allowed to go in Judy's room." Sharon looked at me as if I was the most clueless human being ever to walk the earth. She went into her bedroom and put her hand on the closet doorknob where she hung her fanny packs, then poked her head into Judy's room and made a show of looking around. Very clearly she was saying, "I'm just trying to go in and get my fanny pack back from Judy, that fanny-pack thief." I went in and looked around and sure enough, Sharon's fanny pack was under Judy's bed. It wasn't sign language, but it was clearly communication, perhaps even language of a sort.
reminds me of a virtual reality game i play called vrchat, i dont speak in game and dont know sign language yet, but i manage to communicate with people successfully through actions in a similar way to what you've described
Stories like what you've said remind me of the vast improvement many non-verbal people show when they're given tools like an ipad loaded with images to pick from. I know they're becoming popular for kids, but a daughter of a friend of my parents was given one relatively recently, and even as a grown adult she took to it like a fish to water. Just because someone cannot speak doesn't mean they cannot think! (Also, how dare Judy take that fanny pack. :P)
This made me think of a quote from my favorite author, Terry Pratchett: "Science is not about building a body of known “facts”. It is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good."
@@cibo889 scientists are human. The scientific process is there as a check against that tendency. This story is an example of that process working in the end. It just took a little longer than we normally like in this case.
@@cibo889 5 years isn't really very long, though I was thinking this was a period of more like 10-20 (it's been a little while since I last watched the video). What we really need to stop doing is jumping on every new result as though it were an exciting new truth. That or help people understand the scientific process better so they know to take this sort of thing with a grain of salt or at least not get upset when something is disproven later.
Which is a nonsensical, self-contradictory statement; cause *reality* in and of itself is composed of said "body of known facts". There's no way to distinguish the two without semantic pedantry, ironically indulging the very same perceived notions that pretentious statement allegedly seeks to debunk.
@@thrace_bot1012 Not necessarily. Reality is not a body of facts, it's a process of breaking everything down until basic logic says either "true", "not enough data", "wrong question" or "false".
I made the mistake of putting this video on just after getting home from a 3 mile walk with my Husky mix… you did NOT have to say “walkies” that many times in the first five minutes, now this boy is looking at me like, “yeah, let’s go again!” 😭🤣
That our current model is unsustainable, inefficient, self-contradictory, and damages both human society and the world at large, and that worker ownership is and always was the only solution 😎😎😎
Not to mention a speech about human corruption of nature, when this gorilla has never been allowed to have a normal, natural life due to people's whims
knowingly being dishonest to oneself and the people around them and attempting to manipulate people, also the trainer displayed "love" to the Gorilla but that comes in to question when you realize that Koko was a political tool especially after her death. I wonder if the trainer knew all along that Koko was not speaking or deluded herself in to it.
Yeah and they didn't even let her live in her own troup in a sanctuary just so they could use her for research. I feel sad for her because she was a very social animal. These researchers shouldn't say anything.
Gorillas use some kind of sign language in the wild tho? We cannot say for sure if Koko understood. The only way would to ever know that is if you put two gorillas who were taught sign language together. Of course that will never happen now. But it isn’t anymore cruel than owning a dog which humans literally bred to become completely reliant on our care. Teaching a bunch of gorillas may be the key to keeping them from extinction. By becoming smarter they could’ve survive better idk. I do think keeping koko completely sheltered was wrong and not fair to the animal.
My 30-year-old parrot knows a short list of words and phrases, which he uses almost entirely in context, and he does often behave as if he understands some of what we are saying. He will say "Uh-oh" if someone drops something or leaves the door open, and will keep saying it until the problem is rectified. But he can't tell us what exactly is wrong, only alert us that something is out of place, which is normal bird behavior.
It was odd that they didn't address parrots in this video. Mine has (unintentionally) learned "goddammit," and uses it when she is upset, or if she senses that I am in a bad mood. She will do it completely unprompted, without the word being spoken that day. And since birds in particular use differing sounds to communicate different needs, it may not technically qualify as language use, but if there is a spectrum, she is closer to the understanding pole than the not understanding pole.
@@notmee2388 It's pretty much the same behavior the video talks about. The only difference is that a parrot can mimic the sounds of spoken language. Your parrot only associated "goddamit" with stress. When it's stressed, or notices you stressed, it says that. It is mimicking what you'd normally do, and that's just it.
One guy told me about a parrot that was given to an animal shelter after being raised by a bunch of college guys. The parrot’s response to being examined by the vet was, “FUCK YOU!”
@@ggwp638BC Is that not what learning a language is? The people around you make a specific noise or word in a specific situation and you learn that that noise/word means that situation. If the parrot understands that "goddammit" is a noise people make when stressed because something has gone wrong and it says that same word to tell the humans "hey, something is wrong" how is it not using language? You only know the meanings of the words you know because someone taught you the context or used them in context around you, and parrots are doing it mostly from observing context around them rather than being directly taught like babies.
The fact that locking eyes is a sign of aggression in great apes and Koko’s constant looking away whenever someone is trying to get her to speak is… uncomfortable and upsetting…
@@TheRed02151It might. Some behavior is instinctive. Monkeys born in captivity will still show a fear grimace if they're scared, which idiot humans think is a smile. They'll also lipsmack to say "I'm not a threat, don't hurt me." The eye contact thing in apes could be instinct too.
I was momentarily skeptical when Koko named her kitten, "all ball". It made no sense and it rhymed orally. But then I got so fascinated with the whole project that my skepticism faded. Now I find out, I was on the right track and willingly put on the blinders to enjoy the idea of talking to a gorilla.
"Does he learn socially acquired linguistic rules like not interrupting people when they're talking?" I mean if a lot of humans can't learn that, that's a pretty high bar for a chimp to clear.
Interrupting because you don’t understand language < not interrupting because you’re listening to language < interrupting because you understand what’s being said and want to interject < not interrupting because you understand social rules
There was a popular panel-type discussion show on cable, you probably know the one, I can't remember the name. I tried a couple of times to watch it, but it seemed the members did almost nothing *except* interrupt and talk over each other. Nobody finished a sentence. To me, there was no value to watching it at all, no matter how informed the panel members were supposed to be. One of the worst downsides of telephone conversations, in my opinion, is that two people can start talking at the same time, and have to work out who stops to listen and who speaks. In face-to-face conversation, we generally have cues that a person is about to speak, and can defer to them.
@James Patrick i wouldnt be as scared as a mouse being chased by a cat, cause i know not to look in their eyes, and that their not gonna randomly crush your hands because they are not dangerous, they are peaceful
@@kamilciura7953 Could we please not talk about "apes" as though they all behaved the same? There's solitary ones, sex-obsessed ones, ones with just one dominant male and then there's that one that invented the internet.
@@Morrigi192 I never said they were. However talking about them as though they all have dominant males or wage wars is wrong. Each species is amazingly complex and individuals differ wildly. There is orangutans that live completely solitary lives, only mating and then running off again. Others form groups. There is bonobo groups that have dominant males working alongside a dominant female, completely matriarchal communities etc. They aren't known to wage war, but of course there's aggression and individuals will support each other when it happens. Gorillas and chimps have both been observed fighting other groups in an organized fashion, gorillas do it regardless of gender (female chimps don't partake) but also usually don't go after fleeing individuals, which chimps do. Also, the frequency of violence varies wildly depending on species. The internet-ape for example is by far the least aggressive ape with likelihood of violent interaction being a fraction of other apes'. (I would like to recalculated this likelihood in the aforementioned internet-environment though. I think aggression is way more likely there.)
i'm learning asl right now, and i just wanna say THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for bringing up the very real issue of oralism and audism!!! i'm a hearing person, so i don't know how much i can really say accurately, but i do know its a severely underacknowledged topic and i REALLY appreciate you mentioning it :)
So, to summarise the conclusions in one pithy comment: Koko's researcher: "Hello Koko, this is . Say hello!" Koko: "Me orange eat orange want eat orange me eat me orange" Koko's researcher: "Oh how sweet, she's saying she wants to invite you for a formal dinner to discuss the issues of late stage capitalism" Celebrity: "Wow!" Koko: "Give orange eat me eat orange want orange!"
More like: Koko's researcher: "Hello Koko, this is . Say hello!" Koko: "Me orange eat orange want eat orange me eat me orange" Koko's researcher: "Koko wants to see your nipples."
She might've been unable to talk but the emotions she showed towards the baby cats and Mr. Rogers were genuine and frankly, that was the most interesting thing about her
She can clearly "talk," she just has no rules of language and grammar. She uses signs, with knowledge of what sign applies to what thing, to get what she wants. That's the ultimate utility of talking, so by any utilitarian standard, Koko "talks." They're using a needlessly strict definition of "talk" that would exclude many actual humans! (Never interrupt?! What fantasy world is this?)
@@bcubed72 There's a ton of humans who can't talk, and quite a lot who don't understand language or grammar. They can, however, learn to associate a sound or body movement with a given thing or action, and have that sound or body movement be understood by other humans who will then provide them with the thing that they want. That's not called "talking," that's called "communication." My dog can do that, too. To quite specific degrees, even! If my dog sits down by the footrest and starts crying, I know that his ball is stuck under the footrest. If he starts barking at the coffee table, I know his ball is stuck under the coffee table. If he shoves his face into my lap and knocks my computer out of my hands, I know he wants to be petted. If he barks at me, I know he wants to go outside. If my OTHER dog is bothering him, I know that it's time to feed them. Not to mention all the people nowadays who are giving their pets "word buttons" with which to communicate -- but those dogs and cats aren't learning to *talk,* obviously. No more than using an AAC board or a communication grid or writing something down is "talking." They are, however, learning how to communicate. Nobody's denying that Koko could communicate. Plenty of animals can, and so could she. But she definitely couldn't *talk.*
that's not really the point. All animals have emotions and can feel affectionate. My dog, for example, really loves me. Love and affection is something that we all have.
@@bcubed72 Koko can "talk", alright within shallow definition. But she cannot talk like human talk. My 5 years old nephew can form a sentence, write something rather gibberish and say "i write this". He also can start a conversation by asking "what are you playing?", "are you playing games?", "is that minecraft?", "is that a cartoon? what cartoon?"... Well, not in that tidy structure, but I can understand his sentence structure 80% of it, no second guesswork, or rationalization. Koko, like video said, brute force her signs and randomly jumble something and human will guess what she tried to say by arranging whatever signs she came up with.
@Juan Nyam Yeah, saying Koko "didn't stay 'on topic' and is thus 'not talking'" is a bit rich. Koko talked about what she wanted to talk about, and didn't pay no nevermind to what everybody else wanted! I mean, that may be a trifle selfish...but you can correct a Gorilla's manners, if you want to...I'll watch behind bulletproof glass, TYVM. Hell, if "not answering the question before you" is "not talking," them most politician I know spend most of their lives "not talking" for a camera, because they ALWAYS shift questions into what THEY wanna talk about!
@@Nutlicker683 as a 28 year old that knows he's out of touch, if I saw this sentence online I wouldn't actually think this is nonsense, just that I don't understand it
This reminds me of Clever Hans. A horse who allegedly could count and even perform arithmetics, including multiplication and fractions. Of course he couldn't instead he learned to interpret the body language of his caregivers and even strangers in order to give the desired answer. That does indicate intelligence, just not the kind of intelligence researchers were looking for.
i honestly doubt most animals CANT do basic math. wolves probably know how many rabbits theyre chasing after, and how many are left running when they see their friend rip one in half. they might not have the words or phrases we do to describe and communicate that information but theyve got eyes, eh?
@@gayanime8981 well counting actually is math, just to start. its a simple pattern of adding (a mathematical operation) 1 at each interval. so 1, 2, 3 etc you know how to count i wont bore you. but thats why i gave an example of an equation, the rabbit being ripped in two is a simple subtraction. i was simply inferring that most animals can likely perform very similar operations, obviously without terminology like we do, or go into more intense equations like multiplication or division.
@@gayanime8981 exactly! (to your previous comment): while they dont have the terminology of 'one, two, three' or whatever resembles it, it registers in their brain like it does ours, maybe not to the same extent of cognitive, meaningful equations, however. seems we agreed in the beginning but didnt know, friend.
That "brute forcing" for a treat can be seen in a lot of animals. The first trick I taught my dog was "shake" and now whenever I have something she really wants she offers that behavior.
I find it very easy to teach my dogs tricks, its waiting for the command that I can never get down. My dog will always sit when I have a treat, she will always attempt to shake before any command is given. It is quite frustrating and I've never really trained my dog to follow commands, just spamming every (trick) I've taught her until she gets a treat.
My dog has a wide range of commands she can recognize, and that without us having really done a good job of training her. She keeps needing more challenges, more things to learn. She seems happiest when she's trying to figure out something new. We'll bring home a new puzzle, and while it helps at first to put treats in, later we can just put in dog food, which she can have any time she wants (free fed), so that's clearly not the incentive. If I tell her to bring me a specific toy ("where's red ball?", "where's little ball"), she generally won't try to show me any other toy, unless she gets too excited, at which point her brain seems to short-circuit. When I tell her to "shake", she doesn't do the paw-raising thing though; she shakes her whole body, vigorously. I use that command to get her to dry herself a bit outside after a bath. She got pretty excited when, after discovering what "rabbit" meant, I told her "chase rabbit good. Bite rabbit good. Shake rabbit good." If she ever gets the chance to actually shake a rabbit, I'm sure she'll take it. OTOH, we adopted another dog at the same time, died last year, who was as smart as a cabbage. She barely knew her own name, and DGAF about what toy we asked for, though she had her own preferences. My dog would sometimes take the toy the other one seemed to want most, and hide it, sometimes to the point that we never found it again. Stupid dog apparently pissed her off sometimes.
@@adamjohnson2914 We had a Lab-Dalmatian mix that never walked, always ran. Say "Sit" and she'd sit then jump up as if to say, "Nailed it. Where's my treat?" The only human command she'd obey disconnected from treats or praise was "Go to bed." She'd run out to her bed on the patio in the hot summer and up the hall to her bed in the cold winter and collapse. In between, when she felt the weather changing, she'd go to her bed and start tugging it to the new location until we helped her move it.
@@BruceS42 Anyone who has spent time with animals can reconginze their intelligence varies wildly, as you have very succinctly described. My fiance has a Chihuahua who is the most polite and shy little thing I've ever seen, and who grew comfortable around me after a few visits as I proved I was trustworthy to her. She understands commands, generally how to avoid danger and dumb situations (she never runs outside without one of us, and always returns to the door before us), and will actually wander off if she wants attention but we are in the middle of doing something. She waits until we are free. Meanwhile a close friend has a number of dogs whose brains I am certain consist of a dry walnut, who don't seem to comprehend where food comes from let alone a command (there are bags of dog food on the floor which she won't poach, as well as she needs the food pointed out to her if it's in her bowl). Another friend had a cat who would hunt and eat what he caught for funsies, then go back inside and ask for his regular food.....all while having full silent conversations with my friend, which he would fully reply to with appropriate actions. The intelligence of animals varies as wildly as it does with humans....but they always communicate as they would with their own kind. I always found it weird that Koko communicated with sign language, and hearing that wasn't actually the case makes much more sense. I often question if the scientists who try to "discover" animal intelligence ever had a pet they truly bonded with, or if they had the pet and took care of it but never took the time to learn about them.
@@adamjohnson2914 I learned this with our second dog. I did a pattern to much (sit, lie down, roll over) and he would do it all at once right away. I had to start telling him to "wait" between each command and mix it up a bit.
the phrase “medical intuitive” is both hilarious and terrifying, if i was having a heart attack or some other medical emergency and someone said to me “Don’t worry, im a medical intuitive” i would both run and die of laughter
One thing people didn’t realize is that Koko’s last words were not a pro-environmentalism message… She was signing the entire communist manifesto for all ape proletariat brethren
I love real demonstrations of animal intelligence, like ravens and crows communicating what bad people who mistreat them look like across multiple generations and groups. That is FASCINATING.
@@derdurstbursch they do though. That's the hyper interesting part. There was a study in which a group of people wore masks and were mean to a group of crows, and for multiplel generations of crows and several different groups of crows, they would attack anyone who wore those masks. There is more to the study, but the whole point was that the crows were able to communicate the information without showing the others what the mask looked like.
@@derdurstbursch no, it's cross-generational visual recognition It's not perfect either, they might just as easily harass a similar human, but its definitely visual
This reminds me of how most people interact with my parrot, Logan. His species is known to talk somewhat, but he mostly just imitates small semblances of things around him, usually sneezes, laughter, and kitchen sounds. All of this is just him trying to garner attention and him exclaiming things that are happening. Whenever someone tries to teach him something new, they teach it in a way a human would be taught. He's taught the individual syllables of a tune or phrase, and then they expect him to put it together, but he doesn't conjugate ideas the way humans do. He learns things in song formats, the entire phrase being instantly memorized from start to finish, every pause being taken into the "song" he hears. So, if you were to talk to him in baby talk to teach him something, he would imitate it perfectly, even the long pauses between the words. That's how birds learn songs in the wild. They think he's learning the phrase wrong, but they're really just teaching him wrong. If humans could study how to learn the "languages" of other animals, they could probably garner some actual meaning and insight into their minds
!! thats such a succinct expression of the exact thing ive been thinking! its arrogant for humans to continuously attempt to project our communication standards onto other animals instead of trying to understand them more
@@godwintalking4724 unfortunately a lot of people are too dumb, its really a shame. and with what you said taken into account we should really be focusing more on bettering our own interspecies communication. as to what you said about your jumping spiders, animals definitely can have an impressive understanding of human communication and man made things around them, your jumping spiders sound very cute!
my gran had lost it for the last 2 decades, she could not remember my infant sister growing up and said where's Kahren to the point that he budgie which never spoke for its first few years said it perfectly almost as often as my gran did.
I dont know why she had to lie about Koko. It is amazing enough that Koko could even learn a couple of signs and know what they meant. Why pretend that she could fully speak?
Probably for the millions of dollars. Greed gets people to commit some pretty despicable actions. It's why you have to be cautious about believing famous scientists. Their fame and fortune likely matters far more to them than anything else.
I'd posit there was elements of her being (1) waaay too attached to Koko (you know, mother-child relationship, and that whole weirdness with nipples), and also (2) too prideful in her work. Both of those could certainly explain extensive denial and bias.
I had a dog that would immediately run and piss on my bed every time I gave her a bath. (Needless to say I quickly learned to shut my door before bath time.). I think that act was a much more pure, eloquent expression than any of the forced signing of primates.
I have cats that urinate on clothing when they're taken to the vet, or if their litter boxes aren't cleaned regularly. They can figure out things we use, and they know how to inform us of their displeasure
@@kevint1929 animals dont have the emotional complexity for spite or malice, probably just a stress reaction? Cats are also very clean animals from what i understand, maybe it doesnt feel comfortable going toilet in an area that already feces or urine? I know dogs dont like doing their business near the place they sleep or eat.
@@eduardoperi9897 if my cat doesn't like something, she'll shit in my bathtub. Full stop. One time she didn't like that my mom was making tuna and she didn't get any; With full access to a freshly clean litter box and the same litter we'vebeen using for years, she decided that my tub was the perfect place to take out her righteous vengeance.
my mum bought my dog a knitted jumper at a market on holidays. after a few nights of wearing it, he managed to take it off and drop it in the deep end of our pool while we were asleep, so we couldn’t reach it with ease. needless to say, he hated that jumper, and it was funny as hell. meanwhile my neighbours dog is just,, sometimes scared of going up stairs? not down, not always, and thinks barking at them will fix the problem. dogs are funny little things lmao
Lmao 16:15 talking about the “me eat me eat me me orange me eat made me orange” thing… “a kid wouldn’t say something this devoid of meaning” made me think about that poor stutter kid attempting to talk about dreams
People often forget that scientists are human too. They hold bias, lie, and make mistakes like everyone else does. Koko's situation is an extreme case but it's important to recognize that the mistakes Patterson made have been identified by the scientific community and properly scrutinized. Bad data is still data
Just from the Robin Williams story, it is safe to conclude that Koko was not making a "sounds like" comparison because brain fog made her forget the sign for "nice people"
"Your claims are difficult to take at face value because you have repeatedly failed to provide any evidence to back them up" "You're just mad because your ape didn't communicate as well as mine does" Penny, that's not the issue here.
It speaks to the gentle character of Koko that her frustration of having to deal with that woman all day did not make her snap and tear her head off. I felt like doing that within 2 minutes.
When you said the researchers didn't even know proper sign language I threw my hands up. That right there negates ANY benefit from the research. Why would they not bring in people who actually communicate in sign language!?
There isn't a monolithic sign language. Imo, it makes more sense to try to teach an ape some simplified made up sign language that would be easy for their less than dextrous hands to perform.
Even if they can't talk, it is pretty cool how they brute force their way through language to get a treat. My dogs do the same thing with commands. They will just cycle through all the tricks they know without any prompting in order to get a treat. Sit, lay down, roll over, stand, dance, speak, heel. They know which commands go to which trick, but when I don't give a command, they will do everything hoping one of them results in a treat.
Honestly, the more I look at AI and my cats, the more I think we're just brute-forcing it too. Guessing which word comes next in the sentence, one word at a time, after listening to thousands of conversations between my parents, teachers, friends, colleagues. Knowing which tricks lead to which treats, but, if my first trick didn't work, trying every other trick just to be thorough.
My stepdad worked as a pilot in Congo, and he told me that he and his friends had a pet monkey there, who would check all the bags they brought from grocery store in search of beer cans, which it then proceeded to drink with great pleasure, climb on the fence of the house and start throwing it's feces into whoever passed by. So, monkeys do enjoy beer and I'm sure Koko would have enjoyed it too. Also non-alcoholic beer is fucking terrible.
Man, seeing the actual transcripts is like Researchers: How are you today Koko? Koko: qwerty Researchers: qwerty is like query... yes, we did ask you a question! Very good! Koko: asdf Researchers: All... all signs do friends! Yes, yes, you're signing to us, your friends! Koko: fghfgjfgh
I wonder if that's where "covfefe" came from; the researchers forgot to take his phone away at bedtime. I guess orangutans aren't any more articulate than gorillas.
@@CrashHeadroom It's because the Progressives tap into the same psychology that fanatical religions do, inducing a state of intense moral certainty and a sectarian identity which views the moral outgroup as intrinsically evil. Similar to say the Calvinist Puritans, Islamists, etc. You can't compromise or just let something go, because then you are enabling evil. The Progressives developed out of waves of intense religiosity that swept across the Protestant world in (particularly) the 19th Century and then took on a secular character, replacing "because God says so" with "because my feelings say so".
@@ian_b I'd love an example of these "moral outgroups" that the left separates and considers intrinsically evil. If you could be specific too and not just label an ideology. (i.e. "homophobia" or "racism" and not "Conservatives")
@@theinkqueen6522 Why would they? That is like being surprised that rhymes in Japanese don't work when translated into English. There is a reason anime jokes/puns or stuff like that usually don't make sense.
@@Alkis05 Rhyming is actually not common at all in Japanese, because of how the characters all end in a vowel and even normal sentences often end up rhyming by chance.
@@Alkis05 it's because you would expect sign language(s, it's not very sensible to treat them as different dialects when they are so different- though we call Chinese languages just dialects, as opposed to separate languages with a written linga franca) to match the written language of the area- the different sign languages should have their own script and written grammar, to actually match what is "spoken" in signs, but they don't, and it doesn't make much sense to me? Though I suppose that English plays a role there similar to Classical Chinese in (historical, and potentially rural) China? Someone should probably create a written form, or something, because that'd actually be pretty helpful in helping people learn it, and understand the grammatical and international differences between both signing and English.
I love learning animals body language so I can interact with them in a way they might be able to understand. When my rabbit looks up at the empty couch that my mom was bedridden on I can’t help but think she’s wondering where she is. My bunny and mom were best friends so it’s really hard to see her look up at the couch after all these years.
I understand. It's sad that scientists hyper-focus on spoken language and word-association. Animals aren't naturally good at that. ANY accomplishment that way - is astounding. What they ARE good at - is body language, and tone interpretation. Even with us humans - body language is around 75% of all our communication. We should be marveling at that. (Like how lions and wolves wordlessly pick a target, and somehow just "know," without speaking.)
"Ok, i hear a... uhm, does somebody know a person named (cue the 10 most common names)? Maybe someone who was a (extremely generic job) in (most popualted city near the place where the cold reader is performing)?" It's the same with zodiac signs or similar prophecies, for every person you throw off with your bullcrap there are 10 who'll say "Omg, that's totally me!"
@@valentinmitterbauer4196 I sense that you are a person who wishes that they could do better, and feels that they are disorganized and struggling through life. .... Like literally every human in existence is / does.
Yeah, I remember reading about Koko, starting back in the actual 1970s, and thinking, "This is so cool!" Then when I read the transcript of the AOL "live chat", I was kind of dismayed that the "interpreter" came off like a bad psychic. It didn't help that I had recently read a piece by James Randi about his visit to a psychic and how he totally made a fool out of her. I feel kind of ripped off now, after being so impressed by Koko naming her kitten "All Ball", and that she was human-like enough to lie to get out of trouble, and now it appears to have been a case of wishful thinking -- on everyone's part.
"Communicates with their loved ones" by making rapid fire, half formed guesses and interpreting expressions and responses to alter their statements midway through to reach approximately accurate but vague statements.
I'm really glad he ended the video by suggesting that animals have deep inner worlds. The question is not "Can animals think and communicate the way we do?" The question is, to quote Frans de Waal, "Are we smart enough to know how smart animals are?" A dog can not only hear and see your emotions; it can actually smell them, because it has access to an olfactory world so vast and complex we can barely imagine it.
I know why I talk to my cats; because they can understand tone of voice, and it makes more sense to use words they can form weak associations with (I'm not sure if cats don't associate or refuse to acknowledge the associations with objects/words) instead of using gibberish which would be fundamentally as effective as English if I used the same tone of voice.
Honestly, I’ve begun to think that most animals are a lot smarter than we give them credit for. Even animals like fish and reptiles, animals commonly seen as “dumb” have been observed displaying some pretty complex and interesting behaviour. Hell, for example here, some studies suggest that animals all over the world are becoming nocturnal because of human activity, suggesting that they are better understanding what humans are and are finding ways to better avoid us.
Hey all!
I put up a community post about a piece that offered a critique to this video which seems to have gone missing (thanks, TH-cam)
Anyway, having had a few days to reflect on it and digest it, I decided to move it here and write out a more fleshed out message - and maybe write a bit about how the sausage is made, so to speak.
I put the piece in the description if you wanna read.
I still broadly stand by this video, and the conclusions I drew in it. I still find Terraces paper a more compelling case than not; and there are bits of the critique I disagree with. But the piece highlighted a few shortcomings that I feel are valid and worth including here.
The first is the lack of any real substantive analysis of behavioural linguistics - and I've had a few non-Chompsky linguists reach out to me about it and their chats have been very eye opening.
The second, more important one in my opinion, was about the implicit ableism in the ways I talked about language and language acquisition; especially with regards to neurodivergence.
The framing question of the video was "why were we trying to teach these animals how to talk?" and the answer I leaned towards was a more philosophical one: the idea that animals generally (apes especially) were viewed as lesser versions of people.
People got bored with Clever Hans when it was revealed Hans was using his owner's body language cues to determine the right answer to a maths puzzle. Hans' ability to count had little to do with his capacity for understanding human speech or mathematics, and everything to do with his ability to read human behaviour.
That's a form of intelligence! It's theory of mind! It's interpreting the signals someone else is giving off, and then using your own brain to decode that and find meaning!
It's not language, but it is a very powerful form of communication
But its not one we found valuable. Ape communications seemed to have the undercurrent of humans - like Prometheus with Fire - will give them language so they may transcend the constraints of their animal selves, and be more like us. For we: we are the God species.
This view - in my opinion - justified all manners of abuse and mistreatment, because we couldn't see animals -- like Koko, like Nim, like Kanzi -- for who they were.
Where this breaks down is in the ways I considered, or rather didn't consider, neurodivergence. I didn’t think about how the research I cited centres and reinforces neurotypical, non-disabled experiences; I wasn't careful enough to make it clear that people who don't have what would be considered typical linguistic levels, or don't have typical styles of communication, are still full humans who deserve to be treated with love, respect, and dignity; and I implicitly reinforced those problematic ideas and notions.
Many neurodiverse people don't show certain hallmarks or traits Terrace wanted to observe in Nim, and Terrace himself, I learned recently, was deeply dismissive of atypical kinds of communication. He echoed the view of others who viewed autistic patients as lesser people, rather than full people. I don't think I need to explain why that's problematic. All people are full people.
It was baggage I brought to the table, and it should have been baggage I was more introspective about. It’s an area I should have walked more carefully, and looked at through a more nuanced lens. I should have been conscious of the fact I don't have the best filters for seeing those kinds of connections. I can’t imagine they were the only person to feel this way, and I wanted to thank them for their feedback, and apologise for reinforcing those kinds of ideas.
It matters that we're critical of those kinds of ideas. Because they're used as grounds to sterilise and kill disabled people. And they're not ideas that should be reinforced implicitly.
As they say in the critique: “Ideas have power, wield them with care”
I’ll try and wield with more care moving forwards.
A firm rejection of behavioral linguistics does not imply ableism. You can absolutely put language on a cognitive pedestal, claim that it's a qualitatively different form of communication (and not just communication) without stripping *anyone* of their dignity. Most scientists in the field do just that.
Maybe you didn't have a chance to read it, but you got a lot of feedback on this community post. Much of it was critical of this piece: its factual errors, its thinly veiled condescension and the simple fact that it accuses you of making a claim that can only be uncovered through layers of interpretation. You could turn this whole argument around and claim that this behaviorist critique distorts the differences between disabled people and apes in order to project that onto your discussion.
Your self-reflection is one thing, and it's commendable, but the "implicit ableism" in this video is in the eye of the beholder, it's two steps removed from your discussion (who cares what the author of the research you cite believed?) and depends on baseless assumptions about the contents of your mind.
There absolutely should be some hard line to define human level intelligence. I feel like this gets too close to “pro-life” arguments about how every bundle of cells is some unique human being. Obviously disabled people and animals should be treated with respect, but this starts to cross the line into preachy territory.
@@rotationalbox588 I feel like you worded that in a way that could be interpreted very unfavorably.
@Ramanuj Sarkar Ironically, you repeated this pattern of uncharitable interpretation I tried to outline, even with respect to that carelessly worded comment.
I claim that humans have two legs. According to your reasoning, this makes me ableist, because I deny humanity to those humans who are legless. *You commit a simple error of equivocation between the human species and the humanity of an individual.* Those are two completely different concepts. I didn't make that error (from context it is clear that I meant the species), you did. Therefore your accusation of ableism depends on baseless assumptions.
"Ableist". Being a cripple myself, this immediately makes me want to never listen to a word you have to say again.
My Cat is smart and is capable of human communication. I asked him who was the communist former president of the People's Republic of China and he replied "Mao".
This is the best comment I’ve ever seen, and it was 5 minutes ago.
Fake!!!!!!!! communist propaganda!!!! 😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😠😡😡😡😡😡😡😠😡😡😡
Me:Kitty, when do you want to eat?
Kitty: Mao.
Sam O'Nella is watching
To make it even better, one of the pronunciations of Mao in mandarin means cat.
If Koko communicated to the wider public exclusively through jump cuts, doesn’t it stand to reason that Koko…was a TH-camr?
That gave me a good laugh. Thank you!
"HEY WHAT'S GOING ON KOKOGANG, WE GOT THE NEW CALL OF DUTY BATTLEPASS LETS GRIND THIS SHIT BOIIIIIIIS"
@@styxrakash4639 "Kokogang" 💀😂
Pure logic
As a TH-camr, I can confirm: We don't understand language. We just throw words out at random and hope for positive reinforcement.
"Nim would be taken to an empty bare classroom with no toys or climbing frames and was forced to do language drills."
Can relate
Yes. and we wonder why kids hate school..
At least you can say how much you hated it
not only school
and work office
and jail
and mental hospital
any institution is prison
We put criminals in prisons that look a lot like elementary schools as punishment.
Where is your pfp from?
Boss "Can you work Sunday?"
Me "Give me you raise, me give me raise, raise give me, give give raise me"
Relatable.
snuffles died? I did the medicine check and everything 😢
hahahaha
🤣
The way you talk is so marvelous. Im in awe
Another thing worth looking into on this topic is the "Clever Hans effect" - animals can pick up on subconscious cues to deduce what a human wants them to do, even if the human isn't consciously aware that they're giving cues at all. It's named after Hans, a horse who could supposedly answer math questions by tapping his hoof as many times as the answer. In reality he was detecting how his handler would ever-so-slightly tense up and then relax once Hans got to the correct number, so he would know when to stop to make his handler happy. The effect was discovered because Hans was unable to correctly answer questions that the handler themself did not know the answer to, so they would not give off any cues for him to pick up on.
That's actually more interesting to me than the horse being able to do math. That shows the horse is able to pick up very subtle cues from the human handler, that even we would not notice in eachother normally.
Rather than showing an area where the animal is good, I suspect it might show we have something of a blind spot.
Mr. Hans and his horse huh...
@@deathhog Yeah, unfortunately this is also how most drug-sniffing dogs are trained. They alert on anything or any one they think their handler wants them to.
This reminds me of a story I read online where a cat knew when their owner was thinking about getting a specific food from their kitchen that the cat wanted.
I don't exactly remember, but it was told as something like the owner thinking of "chicken thoughts" vs "ice cream thoughts". The cat knew when the owner was thinking of chicken and would run over and meow for chicken, but when they thought of ice cream while getting chicken the cat didn't notice.
@@deathhog Same here. I think the real studies should be on the bond between humans and animals. Why the animals like us so much, how are they able to develop these skills to understand what we want, etc
Ok, but this doesn't disprove the fact that bees can represent themselves in court.
Alright, this is the best comment
@@totallyradicaldude7325 It do bee like that
lmfao
I saw a documentary about that recently
hwhat?!
A joke to lighten the mood:
Pavlov walks into a bar.
The bell on the door rings.
"Oh no," he says. "I forgot to feed my dog."
Pavlov conditioned himself too, how funny. xD
That's a good one thanks man
thanks man That's a good one
So dark. 🤣
And I'm about to be a buzz kill just like the original video and tell you that Pavlov wasn't just a behaviourist feeding dogs. He massacred and tortured hundreds of dogs for their stomach fluids. "Lighten the mood" and "Pavlov" should never be in the same sentence.
pretty sure koko’s handler just committed too much into teaching koko language that by the time she realised her all her effort was futile she was neck deep in copium
Yeah, in a way, ironically exhibiting the same phenomenon of repeating behaviour that is given positive reinforcement.
kokopium, if you will
I think she could have been buying what she herself was selling at some point. She was 24 when she acquired the gorilla and spent the next 45 years with her. She never married and never had children and it was clear she had a parent-child relationship with Koko and her life revolved around her. If you already go into it thinking teaching a gorilla to sign is possible, it's easy to justify some cherry picking and confirmation bias and selective interpretations. Look at the extent we all anthropomorphize our pets but turn it up by a thousand
It makes sense.. She essentially wasted her whole life on a monkey, her failure was too much for her to accept so she lied to herself and the world
@@Bjergkanin45 Koko was a ape not a monkey, monkeys have tails.
the reason they stopped studying nim is because the “give me eat orange” sentence was the peak of language
@@immersa247 English is less contextual but less confusing, it's almost overexplained but at least it minimizes confusion
We’ve spent so much time trying to teach apes to communicate like us, but seeing as that was a huge failure, I wonder if anyone’s tried to learn how to communicate like they do.
@@immersa247 y’all definitely didn’t watch the whole thing. It was association, not language acquisition. Nim Chimsky didn’t know those words (it wasn’t Koko here) he just performed the hand gestures he knew would give him the treat. It’s like the rat that pushes the button to get the treat, it’s a much more complicated button… but it isn’t language.
@@immersa247 hard to take you serious with that spelling, grammar, and punctuation. It reads like some tween texting tried to be smart.
@@gregpenismith8884 maybe they ARE a tween who just learned some new concepts, albeit imperfectly, and now they're motivated to discuss those concepts with strangers, albeit a bit smugly. That's a completely normal part of learning and growing up. Why let it bother you?
"Cows can have enemies".
I always knew I couldnt trust that emotionless 1000 mile stare they have while they chew. They are actually plotting the downfall of their bovine rival.
*”don’t come to the field tomorrow”*
Amazing
I know it's a joke, but cows also form very strong emotional bonds (with each other and humans too). They even panic if they can't find their friends and such.
Tbh even chicken do, they get stressed when they can't find their friends and often stay with the dead body of their friend for hours or even days
@@rubberthe3 Tbh chickens are so "intelligent" assuming they have any thought in those vacant little skulls is an exercise in futility.
If a cow could it’d eat you and everyone you care about.
The fact that cows can have enemies makes me irrationally happy.
You should be worried. Don't want to become a cow's enemy.
@@pafnutiytheartist Will make sure not to tell them i ate part of their cousin. (Probably.)
Cow sees you eat a steak.
*moosworth will remeber that*
They can beef with people...
@@zacharyjohnson8037 boo get off the stage!
22:21 I used to work as a special Ed teacher of non verbal teens and one of the strategies we were trained to use to teach them to communicate was that we should make sure a variety of people work with the students when teaching communication. The fact koko could only do it around very familiar people says a lot actually.
And the "scientists" never use the sign language themselves, they just speak. If an animal can't pronounce, just stick to the signs and their logic
"cows have friends"
sure
"and enemies"
HELL YEAH
SAME Bessy. Same.
Hawks making birdsong stop
I live in hawk territory, sparrows freak out
😄
The butcher be like : of course i know him he’s me
Why would your mom have enemies. 😎😏
Koko’s final message had the same energy as people lying on Twitter about their toddlers saying something profound
My cat looked at me and said Bruh
change da world
my final message
I was watching this video with my Tortoises in the room and they honest to God scratched into their bedding, "I cannot believe people actually bought into gme gorilla that understands climate change thing. Gorillas just don't have the complex neuro circuitry required to comprehend such complex geopolitical issues."
So proud of them.
Those are usually true though. Just this morning I was rescuing shelter kittens for adoption when my 2 year old comes in and says "is Hegels earlier works on dialectic theory a practical philosophical proposition, or merely an abstract post-hoc continental rationalization for historical patterns that aren't really there?"
I am always so amazed by what kinds of things my kids will say!
They clearly made her sign a script. I'm not convinced her day to day use of signs wasn't genuine though.
My little girl was talking to me about this the other day and said: "Father why do people project their behavior onto animals who in reality behave differently and deserve to be respected and understood rather than understand us? Isn't mankind capable of understanding animals as separate beings that perform better in other neural tasks humans themselves sometimes aren't capable of ?". She's 3. She's also a german shepherd. She's so smart it blows my mind away.
But did she communicate this in DSL? (Doggie Sign Language) While of course still using modern English sentence structure and grammar, except where she didn't know a word, like neural, then she'd play a game of charades, like "sounds like plural, but related to the brain and cognitive though"?
I thought DSL was short for d¡¢k $u¢k¡ng l¡ps?
Do you mean "german shepherd" as in the dog? Or actually a shepherd as in the trade and from Germany?
Anyways, it seems your girl is bright. Congratulations.
@@ezdlc2693 no, he means that his daughter specializes in the field of shepherding, specifically in Germany.
(Tending to sheep)
@@vallisdaemonumofficial
Coomer moment
On a dark humored note, this reminds me of that The Onion episode.
"Scientists at Tulane University’s Primate Research Center announced they have taught a gorilla that some day it will die. [...] "When we first started with Quigley, we was just a normal happy ape [...].
The first thing we did was we taught him patterns like red block, blue block, green block over and over. Then it became a pattern of “gorilla born, gorilla grow, gorilla die” - over and over.
The researchers then showed Quigley photographs of dead and dying gorillas while communicating the phrases: “You some day” and “No choice”. It took thousands of repetitions, but Quigley finally became cogniscent of corellation between himself and the decomposing pile of hair and flesh in the photo."
Yeah because that onion story was completely inspired by Koko
I remember that. They forced that ape to have an existential crisis. 😂
They said it reminds them dumb @@calumryan6328
I grew up on a farm can confirm cows have friends and enemies and will be fond of you or be a jerk
@@theoneandonlysoupemporium its all fun and games until you have to help milk the misanthrope
This is the same for chickens
Even small birds like quail
And there brains are tiny and smooth
Same thing with sheep I had some who acted like puppies and others who seemed like they wanted to get in fights
Nemoosis
Social animals are truly intelligent!! We just must understand that their intelligence functions different than ours. They can communicate too! Just not with FORMAL LANGUAGE.. they don't have words or grammar.
I train animals. They're so smart!!! But they're NOT PEOPLE.
the jump from koko understanding casual conversation, to understanding that the earth needs help and protection, is just too large for me to believe.
I'm pretty sure Koko was just in a very simple and infantile way told that the Earth is dying/degrading/some quivalent and that it is being caused by humans. I don't think that it was anywhere mentioned that Koko actually knew specifically what climate change, just very loose pieces of information, enough so that she could formulate something that vaguely resembles when she demonstrated in that video, and then with the magic of editing, they made it the way it is.
@@pseudoplotinus I think even that's giving them too much benefit of the doubt.
Remember, Koko isn't using ASL, but a specifically modified, simplified version of it. It's entirely possible that they just cut entirely random short sequences of signs from a two hours long recording session, and then smashed together the bits that looked "kind of right", and since they were the only ones who could "read" this modified ASL, they could pretty much write whatever caption they wanted under it.
@@Horvath_Gabor Very true and I don't disagree. But still there has got to be some level of humanesque language and formulation within the communication between Koko and her caretaker. The video basically presents the idea on the basis of absence of evidence, but that doesn't necessarily mean evidence of absence. The title has that little humble '(probably)' for a reason.
@@pseudoplotinus It was demonstrated in the video that Koko's caretakers went through some extreme mental gymnastics to explain some of her meaningless answers. Like how they claimed that when she signed "fine nipple" she meant "fine people", because the two words rhymed when spoken.
Then, on top of that, factor in that ASL doesn't follow English syntax or grammar. Because of this, a lot of Koko's signs had to be "interpreted" by the caretakers.
In other words, even if we presume all the good faith in the universe, it's entirely possible that Koko signed "plate, put away, stupid you", as an insult to the caretaker who took away her food and put her in front of the camera, but then they looked at the signs and went something like this:
It should be obvious to anyone that she's just repeating what handlers show her. And it's really unethical to put these words in her hands while claiming she can understand them
When the chimp said "GIVE ORANGE ME GIVE EAT ORANGE ME EAT ORANGE GIVE ME EAT ORANGE GIVE ME YOU"..... I felt that.
It do be like that sometimes.
Give me you;)
That's deep, man. Real deep
Me at lunchtime lmao
@@aydengarcia9073 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Jackson Galaxy (the cat guy) said that we shouldn't push a cat to speak by pushing buttons for us-we should listen to the cat and figure out their language. I understand that now. You can't really pattern your presumptions as if you were talking to another person and you will never really understand them unless we learn what they are expressing.
Just watched this video with my cat whom I've had for 14 years sprawled on my lap. I've wondered if button training could be useful, but your Jackson Galaxy quote made me think about it and realize, we can already tell each other everything we need to.
Teaching pets the word buttons can be positive as it provides mental stimulation (as do teaching them any tricks really). What's bad is when people rely on buttons to understand pets as opposed to watching the animal's natural methods of communication. I'm not sure if that's a common enough issue to worry about though. from what I noticed in people who teach their pets how to use these buttons, I don't see any of them neglecting the pet's needs when not communicated through the buttons.
Jackson Galaxy is determined his ideas and attitude towards cats is the only correct way to be around cats. While some of his ideas are correct and do wonders for helping cat owners he is not some cat god that knows everything.
I have seen how one cat learned to tell her mom when she is sick or in pain leading to a vet visit that saved her life. Most cats when feeling ill go hide. That behavior in this case would have led to a dead cat. If you have the time and money teaching your cat to use the buttons 1) depends your relationship 2) allows direct communication as well as reading body language and behavior.
I wish the buttons were around 14 years ago so I could have taught my cat so when her arthritis started she could have told me.
@@nikkiewhite476 No one's saying that button training is a bad idea, but it doesn't negate the need to learn to understand the body language/behavior of our companion animals. Even if they could learn to give complex messages via pressing buttons, it wouldn't erase their instincts or make their cognition more human. We, on the other hand, are very capable of learning their language.
@@nikkiewhite476 I think that training buttons that say "water" "outside" or "pain" would be very useful. But a lot of people on the internet want to train their pets to express emotions through buttons and that's stupid. Even we, humans, don't express anger by just saying "anger" with a deadpan face. If a cat is angry you can tell by their ears and tail, the buttons are completely useless in that regard.
All things aside, naming a signing ape Nim Chimpsky is top tier bants.
Yeah its all in good fun.
Gets me every time
i am too stupid to understand the joke, please explain
edit: apparently the comment telling me was deleted. the answer was "Nom Chompsky"
Yeah that's hilarious
All fun and games until he starts creating socialism in the apes
When she says "But man stupid..." I genuinely expected that she would proceed with something along the lines of:
"... Man stupid, man kill man. Man weak ! Ape not kill ape, APES TOGETHER STRONG ! PREPARE FOR WAR !"
Meanwhile (off camera), Koko's handlers were saying: "It reads the script or it gets the hose again."
Nice
oh no, please dont. my nipples are too sensitive for that...
“Chimp Cannibal Holocaust” incident
Apes do commit murder though.
"Why bite"
"Because mad"
"Why mad"
"Don't know"
relatable
Which is the whole reason she made all of this up...
To be fair, my 3 year old speaks exactly like this
@@jansonrawlings8169 Have to agree for a toddler that's quite a coherent conversation
don't know the word for "let me be a gorilla you fucks"
Koko understood the human condition, and you can see it in her artwork.
I could never come up with anything as poetic or moving as
"PINK PINK STINK NICE DRINK"
The most ridiculous part of the story is that Koko's true communication skills were amazing enough -- they didn't need to be exagerated, which only served to call into question all of her accomplishments and possibly diminsh her legacy. Why is nothing ever good enough when it comes to (some ) humans?
Probably money, they need fundings for raising her and fund owners don't like basic things or animals unfortunately...
That is one of the most relevant points made in the comments!
probably because we're fascinated with finding life on our above our level and also because we want to see how we're unique due to our love for being unique and different
What "true communication skills" did she have? What did she ever communicate that it can be shown that that was indeed what she meant?
@@Guitcad1 cwbrooks5329 probably means that Koko's natural communication abilities as a gorilla are already fascinating and worth so much time and resources to study. They could have easily spent all that time researching how gorillas like Koko naturally communicate and try to better understand gorilla behavior, but instead it was a nearly 50 year circus act.
the ending hit hard. all i could think about was that my cat has been with me for 9 years and he never needed human communication to notice when i was sad or sick and needed comfort. and i never needed him to use words, he has his own kind of communication. i think we should value the ways in which animals communicate more.
I believe there was a lady who lived with gorillas by learning their behaviour and integrating into their society.
MAybe that's fake too, but it seems to make way more sense than trying to teach a gorilla sign language.
@@Nerobyrne yeah, makes a lot more sense
@@Nerobyrne Jane Goodall
@@palecurve - Goodall was chimps. Diane Fossey lived among gorillas and was murdered by poachers. I doubt she humanized them.
@@julietfischer5056 Thanks for the clarification!
"One raccoon just knocked the tube over"
Whatever scientist designed this clearly had no idea what a raccoon was when they started that study
They did, you can see the base is huge and quite heavy, they probably thought it was enough to avoid them tipping it over, never considered the little fat ass could just put all his weight on it and do it
i mean they did try to make it pretty heavy. its just powerful.
@@jammy008 Maybe I'm the one underestimating raccoons now, but I've never known them to have incredible power
@@Vandyno Raccoons are angry, hungry trash pandas, they aren't gonna let something like "heavy weight" stop them
Weird little mammal that was literally sharpened by millenia of evolution to be a professional trash thief.
yeah after koko's "appeal to humanity" i knew it was bs, theres no way a gorilla can grasp the ways humans destroy the earth or use symbolism like "i am nature"
You could see her looking repeatedly in the same direction. She was clearly mimicking someone
also, the cuts, it was filmed like it's an action movie.
It's a nice thought to think, but for an animal who can't sign proper sentences, she definitely wasn't speaking in metaphors like the caterpillar from Alice in Wonderland.
what bothers me more that while animals can't talk, they certainly can think and feel emotions.
So while everyone was going gaga over her 'message', I'm thinking that throughout the whole time she was probably in extreme distress, having to make complex signs for basic things like food and water, not able to live in the wild among her own species or act according to her nature.
She couldn't understand climate change. What she probably DID understand was that she was captive and alone, and likely could not understand why.
You know, i've grown up watching a lot of pigeons, and I've learned one thing about animals: we tend to think of them as children, or babies...but they aren't. An adult animal is just that...an adult. And not 'stupid' either, but intelligent and well adapted for their environment. In other words, treating a grown ape like a child is not much different from treating a grown man like a child. Many of these animals kept as if they're children are basically emotionally stunted. Like, of course they get aggressive as they older. They're violent animals, just like humans.
@@ashvinvaidyanathan7239 She was looking repeatedly in the same direction because she was obviously reading the prompter
As a disabled person, I have seen first hand how people who can’t or struggle to speak verbally get treated like infants or animals. I was dating someone my age who struggled to speak as a result of a traumatic brain injury. He was smart. As smart as me. He just had trouble actually speaking. But people who didn’t know him would hear him speak and instantly switch to baby voice. I even see it with myself. I’ll tell people I’m autistic and they’re like “but you’re so smart/outgoing/talkative?!” And what’s actually happening is their thinking “autism means stupid and barely human, this person in front of me isn’t that. I’m confused” and it pisses me off to no end.
It's ableism. Pure and simple.
100%. And as an autistic person, I believe that extends even to nonverbal autistic people.
Nowadays being odd is being autistic.
@@unusualusername8847 the fuck's ableism?
yep. the way abled people treat disabled people is insane. even just missing a limb or using a wheelchair or, fucking, being short (which obvs isnt a disability i know) has people baby talking you.
i saw two people having a conversation when i was in a cafe and idk what their relationship was but they clearly didnt know each other well because the guy was wearing full jeans and shoes and they were having a conversation and then he absently mentioned his prosthetic leg and the chick goes "ohhh ahahaha." and is quiet and then AUDIBLY starts talking in shorter sentences with simpler words and its so fucking rude.
* *Filming Koko's last words* *
"Have we got it?"
"Yes, we've got it."
"Good. Shoot her before her last words are something dumb like Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you"*
oh ffs ... LOL
He wanted an orange to eat. Seems he gained an _extremely_ basic idea that related a few signs to objects and actions and thats it. Much the same as a dog.
And mainly related to food.
Again like a dog.
We can interpret that as him wanting an orange, because we have the intelligence to make the association, but the chimp isnt learning language, its learning to relate things the same way a dog associates "walkies" or "food" with these actions.
Theres no understanding of grammar here.
We would be better off using our intelligence to learn how to communicate with them on their level than trying to force them to communicate with us on ours.
Humans have the intelligence to bridge the gap (maybe) animals dont.
@@stevepalpatine2828 I've always wonder what exactly elephants as "saying" to each other.
@@fukkitful Elephants are extremely intelligent, possibly as clever as the Great Apes, Cetaceans such as Dolphins, Octopi and Corvines, all these creatures are very smart and have demonstrated problem solving ability and methods of communication between members of their own species, the problem comes in finding a form of interspecies communication, we have no frame of reference, and with things like Elephants and Cetaceans, it's possible they rely on forms of communication in frequencies our senses can't even detect. With Octopi it's even more difficult.
LMFAO
my cat cant talk but she has a specific gut wrenching meow that she only uses when a barrier she really doesnt want to be blocking her is blocking her because it makes me open doors really fast, she also has a meow that she does when she's really distressed when shes stuck outside, and a smug meow when i pet her a lot but shes super silent otherwise
You've been trained nicely. Good on you. My deaf white car Kenny had similar chirrups and roars as though he was on the brink of death sometimes waiting to be let inside- or if he woke up by accident in a room with a closed door. I was even worse because I'd locked him in the closet once and couldn't find the maaooowwww for about an hour. We were both in need of ambulances after that. It sounds like you've cat-crisis proofed your home now, which you could do a youtube video on.🙏🕊🌏💐🌹🎻🎵🔭📡🌼🏵🌻🔭📡
My cat who has since passed away had a specific meow for water, another for food, and yet another to tell me she wanted snuggles.
My cat has an annoyed grunt for when the toy I've thrown for him to fetch is out of reach.
Sounds like the cat trained you, no? 😅
Apparently cats typically don’t communicate with each other via vocalization when feral/wild! Instead most communication is via scent and body language. When domestic or socialized with humans, they pick up young that humans typically understand/ react to things like meows and hissing more than scent or body language, and therefore ‘create’ a system of meows that their humans will understand means a certain thing, such as using a certain pitch or cant when they want/need food/attention etc. It tends to be personalized between their owners and them too! Which is really neat!!
Koko is like the show psychic: the ten misses are ignored, while the one hit is reinforced.
god this gave me bad memories of my mother telling me to stfu and leave when i tried to tell her long island medium was a conniving bitch lol
"N"? -That's right I have a second cousin named Nick! How did you know?!?
throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks
"Why is sentience our prerequisite for empathy?"
I couldn't have put it any better. Brilliant work.
It's not a very strong point, since many humans don't even afford empathy to other humans, who by definition have sentience. Empathy probably shouldn't be applied to absolutely every living thing that doesn't have sentience, either - a sponge for instance. Most behaviorists would agree complex life has sentience even if they don't have language.
Nobody seems to agree, to this day, on what the prerequisites for empathy should be. I think for most of us the answer is just: Does being mean to this thing make me feel bad?
Not exactly a stellar criterion but it's likely our default mode as a species.
Pretty sure empathy doesn't have pre-requisites. We aren't doing a checklist before we feel for another being. Well, most of us. Do you? We learn empathy in our first years of life, and it's an emotional repsonse, not a logical one, which is why you can't learn it later.
@@themudpit621Empathy can also be a choice. For example, narcissists tend to withhold their sense of empathy as part of their defense mechanism, they choose, consciously and/or subconsciously, to either ignore it or just not experience it. Even non-narcissists tend to have extremely selective empathy in my experience, people will just choose not to have empathy for certain individuals or groups of individuals as doing so would challenge beliefs they hold or their ego or whatever else. Empathy isn't an entirely involuntary experience
@@icarus313 Well that's could be one of the main reasons why vegans don't eat anything animal but do eat plants, a plant is alive and it can feel but it's harder to feel empathy for a plant than animals like mammals,birds and others because they are closer to us in the biological sense, we see a pig screeching as it's about to get butchered and feel bad for him because we transport the same feelings of desperation to us imagining the same situation but with humans, but when we see multiples crops in a farm being chopped from their roots to be sold doesn't have the same effect because no one can actually relate to a plant.
The idea of cows maybe having enemies really threw me off guard
Earthworm jim was onto something lol
They know something
your chances of beeing the enemy of a cow are low but never zero
You could say they have ne-moo-sises
I mean They the only reason aliens would have interest in us so why it’s so shocking they can have enemies?
The "give orange me eat orange" sentence from nim is probably the funniest thing any animal could communicate. that's why they stopped researching.
@@ultimategotea yeah but it was also really funny so they stopped because nothing could top it
@@crowe3301 It's like when you get 250K retweets on twitter so you just go "well, I can't replicate that banger, how am I supposed to keep posting now?"
Who knew Mojo Jojo's overly repetitive explanations of his evil plans were actually kind of accurate chimp behavior
@@ultimategotea him signing words is proof that he can't sign? you realize that he's not being taught in a college English 101 class (that would be stupid to attempt). his words are probably perfectly correct in the language he was taught.
Dood you literally have the best screen name ever
"Koko inspired me to learn sign language to speak to my friend who is deaf"
we need more studies on humans
they're weird
nah, those should be left alone. craziest predators that don't make sense in the slightest
I have to assume what they meant was more like, "If a gorilla can learn sign, what's my excuse?" but yeah what a wierd thing to say
I interpreted it as "aw dude if a gorilla can learn to sign i should be able to too, it can't be that hard?"
nah you don't get as much money for killing mother humans and trafficking their children
yeah I mean that dude had a friend? what is this 1743? (crys onto keyboard)
Ive had dogs all my life, a thing I noticed is they recognised the word walkies, but if you say any random world with the same affliction you usually use to say walkies they'd respond the same. A friend who came to stay with me for a short while, she was able to give commands to the dog in Russian, the dog had never heard russian till she visited. The dogs never really recognised the word, just the way I'd say it. You see this with almost all dog owners, they never talk normally, "sit" is usually said in a authoritative tone. They listen to the tone, not the words.
Yep. One of my cats is an asshole (not really in the fun way) so whenever I cuss her out I use a cutesy tone because even if she's an asshole yelling at her won't help, just make her scared. But I still get to release my anger at her
I think they recognize the series of sounds, too, not just the tone. I taught all my cats to sit up and beg when I tell them "Say please." But one of them apparently associates sitting up as telling me he wants me to do something. One day he walked in my room and just kept doing the trick over and over. I was busy and not paying much attention for a minute or two. Then when I looked at him, he had swallowed half a string from the tulle on the Christmas tree and was telling me he needed help. I still think that's highly intelligent.
I did get the string out.
@@hikkchikwell good for you, my friend’s cat did the same thing (swallowing a string), and my friend had to help her out too. The problem was that the string wasn’t sticking out of it’s mouth 💀💀💀
@@jitterygravy2829 Yeeeah...I went through that with a different cat and a piece of crochet thread. Disgusting. I was scared to pull it out, so I cut it, and later that day she passed the rest of it, thank God.
I had always assumed the researchers had some understanding of ASL. The audacity of trying to teach an animal to meaningfully communicate in a language you don’t know and ignoring native speakers (signers?)...
I know right! It honestly makes me wonder if part of the reason the apes can’t follow any grammar rules is bcs the humans signing around them aren’t properly following them. Granted a human child would actually start creating and applying rules themselves (that’s how creoles are created), but it does make me wonder if the results would be any different if those communicating with the Apes were actually fluent in sign language.
I wrote a short paper about this in my first year of uni and I never thought to question whether the researchers were fluent in sign language. It was so obvious to me that would have to, for the studies to make any sense. Since then, I've thankfully learnt to think about this kind of stuff a little more critically.
@@Antony_Oscar link me the paper please
Much appreciated
So everyone knew for 40 years that these lying mf didn't know signs language?
If that isn't the epitome of ableism...
Her reference to the "failure" with Chimpsky is very telling. It wasn't a failure. They wanted to see if the chimp could talk and he couldn't. They got what they wanted out of the experiment, but she sees it as a failure because she wants so desperately for it to be able to talk. She is biased. It shouldn't matter about the bond the researcher has with the animal. When my kids were learning to talk, they were still able to be understood when meeting other family for the first time. It's not like because they didn't have the bond I had with them, they weren't able to be understood all of a sudden.
no, what she said is that the ape wouldn't talk if it didn't develop a bond. You can infer from there, but it's bad faith to do before. That is no better than what you say she is doing.
I see what you mean but also in one part of the "study" they gave Nim a cigar and he smoked it. So in a lot of ways it failed to even be an actual study and more just fuckin up the poor ape.
@@gpheonix1 It shouldn't need a bond with a new person to communicate. Kids certainly don't.
@@runningfromabear8354 im not an expert nor do i have any information to discern a conclusion to speak to your point.
Language does not require bonds. Period. If they can only "communicate" with one person, they aren't communicating at all. They aren't learning a language.
Also I think the worst account was when they made a chimp,I believe, live in an apartment and behave like a human child. He became so frustrated and enraged that he was aggressive and destroying things. They eventually gave her to a sanctuary where he was rejected by others of his species because he was not raised around them and could not behave like them either.
THATS WHY YOU DONT TAKE THE CUTE BABY CROCODILE TO YOUR HOME, SON!!!
This is not true.
It was a MALE chimp and besides the expected problems, the mother of the family had a weird relationship with him, as she put it, “it wasn’t sexual, but it was very sensual.” Lady, WHAT??? There is a documentary called “Project Nim” about it.
Reverse Mowgli?
@@asmodiusjones9563 Nin was a male chimp yeah but there was also another story about a female chimp who was kept in an apartment too. I will admit the guy got his story a little incorrect though, eventually the female chimp learned how to coexist with other chimps although was completely sexually confused and never ends up mating mating which is neither here nor there I suppose. She still had a fondness for her caretakers when they came to visit her one day giving them a goodbye hug. And then as Sam O'nella put it, she got "... poached like a fucking egg..." and all that was left behind was either her head and hands or her torso without her head and hands.
Lucy was the chimp's name
Lol its crazy that everyone thinks "If an animal can talk it's going to be an ape!" while crows are like... right there.
"you can't teach dolphin to sign"
not with that attitude.
Dolphins do have some form of language capability (although doubtfully on a human level) so a simple form of sign could work as far as their brains go
@@majanilsson3848 they definitely don’t have the right vocal chords but they’re definitely closest to humans intelligence wise I think
@@elliejelly8815 Of course they don't have the "right" vocal chords. Dolphins have been observed to have complex communications and their language/proto-language is through whistling. Language doesn't require vocal chords. We're communicating through language right now.
@@elliejelly8815 They can replicate what they hear quite well, but the water gets in the way. And not having lips lol
Why not teach them a version of morse code or something like that?
Nim's story is devastatingly heartbreaking. For him to think he was being rescued to then be left behind to be abused... maddeningly sad
I’m kinda skimming through this video can you leave a time stamp? Or just tell me how Nim was abused?
Oh never mind I found it 😕
The same thing happened to a dolphin who they tried to teach language to using LSD. They ended up abandoning him in a bank vault full of water and he killed himself. Dolphins can choose to stop breathing if they get desperate/depressed enough and that's what he did. They may as well have released him into the ocean. The woman who had been taking care of him even masturbated him (f'n disgusting). So much animal abuse for no reason whatsoever.
@@hotcrazycatladyme168 Actually if i was a depressed dolphin and a woman jacked me off I'd feel somewhat less depressed!
@@devinthierault dude no
One of the hardest laughs I ever had was watching a TV Documentary on Koko, getting 5 or 10 minutes into it, and realizing it was bullshit because everything she "said" was some variation of "put food in monke"
To be fair, I'm pretty sure that, if we actually managed to teach a chimp to speak, at least 90% of it would be "put food in monke"
I mean, same Koko. Same
"put food in monke"🤣
The crude reduction of everything is the funniest thing ive ever read. Thank you.
@DissonanceEngineer killed me
The weirdest part about speaking a language that one party in a conversation doesn't understand well is that the more skilled speaker almost always ends up speaking a really simplified pidgin with stripped-down ideas, almost as instinct. When you're on the receiving end of this, not only does it feel difficult to express yourself in a language you don't fully understand, but you are always aware that most people are going to express very limited thoughts and ideas to you in order to keep the conversation intelligible. It's incredibly isolating, and highlights exactly how important language is to our interactions and relationships with others.
(nods head) You ok? (thumbs up).
Which is why autism is so handicapping because they literally miss about 80% of what is said(body language and gestures)
I feel like it's an instinctual response to the sensation one would have to a baby/child
they may not understand most complex words, ideas, or phrases (as they lack background knowledge) so you speak very slowly with clear diction, and use simple words and concepts to develop a foundation of communication.
Typically, like how its brought up in the video, you're supposed to get reinforcement and corrections to build that foundation of communication.
But if you don't have that time for correction, or reinforcement, it comes across as patronizing and demeaning. When most people may not even be aware they're doing that behavior, and if they are, may not even be aware they're coming across as condescending
When I saw Koko "talking" about fixing the earth I was sure that was bullshit
A gorilla has trouble to learn new worlds and articulate simple phrases, but somehow was able to learn intricate complexies about world events?
I was like, nice message but it's obviously staged. Who believes that to be real with all those cuts?
That was simply a paid endorsement. It's no different from a celebrity doing a commercial. There was a script that Koko had to follow, and judging from all the cuts, was very extremely difficult to get Koko to sign through.
Exactly. Like, you're telling me that a Gorilla has a grasp on the idea of nature conservation? Yeah, sure, buddy
Yeah, and did you notice how she used the exact same repeated gesture that was somehow interpreted as being like, five different things? 2000 words my ass, scro.
@@eamonia Did that word by chance mean human? Koko sure said the word human a lot
Koko really hit us with "Change da world. My final message. Goodbye."
Koko really hit us with "Nut eat...polite thirsty-swallow that."
Id love to see the ACTUAL video. Not the one where they cobbled together a political ad with pieces of it.
If you go the original YT video the scariest part that you will find is people saying: "So what if it is the hoax? The message is still true!"
There are six morale foundations that define how virtous a person is, one of them is purity or honesty. Leftists ie the group that cares about Climate Change lack it, so they don't care if their goal is achieved through a lie.
@@DzinkyDzink you mean democrats? democrats are not leftists brother
@@DzinkyDzink if we save the world through a lie, would it be justifiable? I believe so, even if I don't think this actually happen on the real world, unfirtunatelly, is not that simple to make the world better and a benign lie is actually bad in the long term, but I don't think is that absurd a person thinking Koko's speech isn't that bad because the message is true, they are wrong though, but you are framing as if they don't care about nothing and would do anything to achive their plans, you are just disingenuous my friend
I was in that 1998 AOL chat! I was 12, had read a lot about Koko, and was so excited that I was going to experience the gorilla that could "talk." Instead, to be in that chatroom was to realize that she couldn't. Every response from the gorilla seemed to be a total non-sequitur. I was so crushed, but at least I learned a valuable lesson about skepticism.
What did happen in the Chat?
10:41 I just love how Michael the gorilla called garlic “insult smell”, which…I mean, it’s pretty spot on 😂
this and the dolphin experiment has taught me one thing, researchers are far too concerned with getting animals to communicate as humans rather than to understand how animals communicate as animals and with each other.
I'm know there's plenty of researchers who study how animals communicate with each other.
But that's not getting headlines, that's not gonna make you famous.
@@daredaemon8878 Sapolsky (the guy rocking a full beard in the video) speaks about ethology in his lecturing series on Stanford's TH-cam channel.
Ethology consists of interviewing the animals in their own language, so to speak.
e.g. th-cam.com/video/Vg4wXuMwNaA/w-d-xo.html
dude animal planet shows that in every single episode they make, we already know how animals communicate, all of this is because they WANTED an animal to learn HUMAN speech. Why does no one get this? Soup literally says in the video that an animal just doesn't have what it takes to learn human language n the problem is there with the scientists, trying to make animals learn something they shouldn't even if they could one day.
Humans could try to breed other apes to communicate more like us. It might take a couple hundred years, but highly intelligent chimps is not difficult since they already have good brains.
"An one racoon just knocked the tube over."
I love it when animals in an intelligence test manage to outsmart the humans giving it.
My cat likes to stick things in the fan on my brother's computer. So my brother turned it off. So my cat realised he can sit on the bottom and turn it on. So now it gets turned off at the wall... For now 😂
Me looking at your grammar and thinking theyd probably outsmart you too
@@Skumrasket yeah you're probably waaay smarter than that guy
@@Skumrasket How do you know that English is his first language huh?
@@Skumrasket You say, using no punctuation.
I don't know much about Koko but the moment I saw the "final message" I went "Wow, that's complete bullshit". I genuinely thought you made up those subtitles because it's so on the nose.
Lmfao I felt almost insulted. I thought those were fake subtitles someone on the internet had slapped in there to get clout and that version was the one that had reached virality, but NO, IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE THE REAL THING
I can't remember where I first saw it, but the comments section totally made me facepalm.
The cuts and the way she kept looking to the side made it look as if she was being told to sign those things (if what she was signing even matched up to the subtitles), it didn’t at all look genuine
It’s so bad that some conspiracy theorists genuinely think that koko was just someone in a gorilla suit.
@@hamishstewart5324 that's rather funny 😆
19:25 this feels EXACTLY as when my dog can't figure out the exact command I'm giving him and just starts going through every trick he knows until one fits. I don't think this animal understands the meaning of those words any more than a child would suddenly understand a math equation they solved by inputting any combination of numbers they could until one was right.
I had a pet parakeet. I didn’t buy it at a store, it just flew to me one day and stayed. As far as domesticated birds go, it was extremely happy and content. Being a bird, he never showed affection in any way I could understand, until he got sick. He lost the use of his legs, meaning he could no longer perch and only drag his body with his beak. In the short time before he passed, I carried him everywhere. Each night he would lay on my chest and I’d pet him under his chin. He would only move to bring himself closer to my face. Other than that, he just closed his eyes and rested. It seemed like the next best thing to his usual energetic lifestyle was to be there. As tiny as he was, he seemed to fully grasp that he was cared for and loved, and he seemed to value it.
Hey... i lost my pet parakeet... i think you found him!
I once spent the summer at a place where they had one, she used to fly up to me while I was in bed and lay her little head against my cheek, I still miss that fucker
@@nickyblue4866 I’m sorry you lost him. Was he blue and white?
I'm crying
no joke this put a tear under my eye.
"Do you like to chat with other people?"
Koko: "Fine nipple."
Robin Williams had his suspicions.
What? The gorilla was speaking Robin's language: randomness
Though, 900 pounds of muscle might break your pelvis.
hahahaha
Patterson is a creep who regularly exposed herself to Koko, among other disgusting things that would get my comment nuked by youtube. The ape was so obsessed with that she'd refuse to participate in her language sessions until Patterson let Koko touch hers, or forced one of her poor female research assistants to do it instead. She was always forcing her female assistants to let Koko the poor women. That's what's happening here, Koko won't cooperate cuz she wants to someone, and Patterson made up that weak excuse so the people watching didn't find out the truth.
@@WobblesandBean do you have any proof of this?
Imagine an English speaker trying to teach French, with ZERO knowledge of French or how it works, but they taught 'French' by simply using Google translate to translate single words and then just simply used French words in place of English ones, using the English systems of grammar, structure, etc....you would never get away with that
that's exactly what happened with the Scottish wikipedia lol
a guy that had no knowledge of the Scottish language edited it for years causing confusion (maybe it's a different dialect?). The revelation was embarrassing to everyone involved.
@@klugg3389 I remember that reddit thread! It was terrible, even more so considering that traditionally Scots hasn't been respected as a dialect of English, and apparently some were using the abominable Scots language Wikipedia written by this American teen as "evidence" that it was "just English spelt wrong".
What your discussing about?? Maybe your English is no enough strong, this scientists are extremely smartest than you.
Ape-glish
@@klugg3389 That’s fucking hilarious
I tried learning sign language before. Nobody in my personal life requires signing in order to communicate, but when I was younger I worked in a cafe, and one of our regulars was deaf. Anytime he came in he'd gesture to borrow a pen and paper to write his order. One day I signed something I estimated to be "your regular today?" And the effort alone was enough to make him smile.
Damage to my hands and fingers makes signing difficult for me, since I don't have good motion in my wrists, pinky or ring fingers, but it's still something I'd like to put more effort into when I can.
You are seriously amazing for that. That’s the kind of thoughtful gesture that sticks with a person for their entire life
Respect
Respect
Oh I also learned some sign language to communicate with a regular as a barista ! Sometimes she would get a latte and sometimes an americano so I learned the basics, hello, have a nice day and to ask if she wanted milk or not. She was also very thankful
Why waste time trying to teach gorillas how to talk when we could instead be teaching them things like how to make fire? I dream of a world full of gorilla arsonists, and plan to one day make this vision a reality
If you want arson, teach it to chimpanzees. Some Chimps tore up a guy's face because he gave one of them a birthday cake which the others didn't get to share. _They attacked out of sheer jealously._
So yeah, if you want arsonist apes, teach it to chimps because they'll do it for the pettiest of reasons.
If you can find the short story `Bears Discover Fire', you might want to read it. One of the first things they use it for is to torch a trophy hunter's cabin.
I know you will achieve your beautiful and necessary dream.
@@thewhompingwampa2671 The day chimps learn how to make fire and use it will be the day when the world will legalise making a species extinct for the sole purpose of making them extinct
Arsonists Gorillas😂 classic
I remember first reading about Koko and thinking it was amazing. I especially remember the finger-bracelet = ring part which sounded pretty convincing. Then years later I read a transcript of one of her "conversations" and 90% of what she was signing was "koko love" "give treat nut" "eat give nut" "treat treat koko" "eat nut treat".
Nipple show me
Got her priorities straight
Haha just like any dog or a cat, good on you Koko and understandable as Gorilla's have to constantly eat to be that big.
@@loli_cvnt5622 wtf is that username 🤨📸
trick, nut, orange give treat, Koko treat give nut nut give Koko treat
The darkness is coming, humans... Beware.
Give me orange Koko nut orange give me you nut give me
My dog got hit with a random stroke around the last year of his life and it caused one half of his neck to become stiffened. He could barely walk and became even more sluggish. A lot of days, he would end up just laying down without doing much else.
Except for the day when I came back home from college for summer break. When he saw me, he got up from his spot and waddled over to me while whining. My parents told me it was the most they’d seen him move since he got worse.
My dog powered through his gradually dying body to greet me like he always did, and that gesture spoke more than a thousand words ever could. I don’t need a stupid dog button or butchered sign to feel the love he had in that moment.
my eyes are about to rain
I love you and I love your dog, you sound like an amazing owner and I wish you the best in everything
😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
No matter what people say, animals definitely do have the power to give, receive, and feel love. People who say it's just about reward and punishment haven't experienced things outside of a textbook. I hope your dogs last days were happy ones!
if he was suffering that much then why didnt you guys put him down?
So many people are completely missing the point.
The point of these experiments was not to determine if animals are "intelligent" or whether they have emotions or feelings. It had one point: could they learn to use language the way humans do? The answer is clearly no. And I'm sorry that so many of them were made to endure such horrible treatment for the sake of chasing a phantom.
Yeah there seems to be quite a few people antagonizing those that see potential in the study of animals being able to understand a human language. Nobody is gauging if something is sentient if it can understand humans.
OKAY IM NOT DONE THE VIDEO BUT AS FAR AS "THE LAST MESSAGE FROM KOKO TO MAN." IT SHOULDNT BE USED AS PROOF. THE REASON THEY USE SUCH TRANSAPANCY OF THE CREATION IS BECAUSE KOKO WAS HIRED AS A CUE ACTOR FOR THE FILM, MEANING THEY GAVE HER THE WORDS FOR THE FILM IN A COMMERCIAL SENSE. JUST LIKE YOU WILL HIRE A CELEB TO TALK ABOUT THESE TOPICS FOR YOUR COMMERCIAL BECAUSE THEY WERE FAMOUS. AND USUALLY THAT CELEB IS SOMEBODY THAT WE RECOGNIZE AS SOMEWHAT CLOSE TO THAT SUBJECT. LIKE A CELEBRITY THAT WAS IN A CAR ACIDENT DOING A DRUNK DRIVING COMMERCIAL. THEY MAY NOT HAVE BEEN HIT BY A DRUNK DRIVER BUT THEY WERE HURT IN A CAR ACCIDENT. IT TOUCHES PPL. SO JUST BECAUSE EVERYONE IS LOOKING FOR THE TRICKERY IN KOKO SPEAKING THEY ARE LOOKING TO HARD AND TOTALLY MISSING THE POINT OF THAT OUTREACH VIDEO. THEY WERE NOT IMPLYING THAT IT WAS KOKO'S OWN WORDS JUST THAT ITS MORE MEANINGFUL COMING FROM AN ANIMAL WHO CAN ACTUALLY TALK.
@@lovehildagreywhy are you yelling at everybody?
I agree with most of your message, but not on the conclusion that those experiments prove anything, even though it seems to be likely. There's too much of a methodological problem to draw any conclusion one way or another. That being said, I don't think we should repeat those if it means subjecting other apes to so many animal abuse.
The path to knowledge unfortunately has to have those things happen. Without testing things, we'd never be 100% certain. That's how we learned blood-letting was bad, among many other things
28:26
“The issue was that the researchers who worked with Koko- and other apes for that matter- didn’t know sign language.”
WTF
Ok to be fair, they werent necessarily attempting to teach an ape to speak to a deaf person. They just wanted to teach them language in a form they could use, i.e. using their body rather than their mouth. However, it does seem like learning ASL would aid greatly in their ability to develop a program to teach a person or animal a new language
@@skeetsmcgrew3282 Sure, but ASL isn’t just for deaf people. If the person who is learning it is mute, ASL makes communication a lot easier. Or, if the animal you are teaching has similar hands to humans, ASL would leave less room for interpretation than just using body language. Or, maybe just for the experiment, make your own sign language to remove confusion.
The ‘researchers’ are students/volunteers
@@Odinsday apes lack the dexterity to use ASL though. The ape sign language Koko used was based on ASL, but modified to be possible for apes because they lack the slow twitch muscles humans have in their hands and arms, but have more fast twitch muscles. This is why they're so strong, but can't perform tasks like writing or other fine detail work.
@@Null_Experis that’s still not very good though, because I should think that having a person who knows ASL would be very helpful on the team, even if the language was modified for Koko. if the signs koko was taught were modified ASL, it’s still pretty important to have a person who knows ASL; they’re one step closer to “understanding” her, etc. Idk. All I’m saying is that it’s weird that they didn’t get like one person? Or learn some ASL? To cover their bases?
I'm thinking of the non-verbal intellectually disabled people I used to work with. When Myron wanted coffee, he'd walk over to the coffee pot, reach towards it, and make eye contact. I'd make the coffee and Myron would drink it. Then I'd write in the journal of what happened in the apartment that day as "Myron asked me to make coffee." When Sharon needed a maxi-pad, she'd make eye contact and place her hands in her crotch. I immediately understood her the very first time she did this with me. I provided the pad and she went into the bathroom to attend to her need. But my favorite example of Sharon's communication was when she kept trying to go into Judy's bedroom late one night. I put my hand on her arm and shook my head and said, "No. You're not allowed to go in Judy's room." Sharon looked at me as if I was the most clueless human being ever to walk the earth. She went into her bedroom and put her hand on the closet doorknob where she hung her fanny packs, then poked her head into Judy's room and made a show of looking around. Very clearly she was saying, "I'm just trying to go in and get my fanny pack back from Judy, that fanny-pack thief." I went in and looked around and sure enough, Sharon's fanny pack was under Judy's bed. It wasn't sign language, but it was clearly communication, perhaps even language of a sort.
It was non-verbal language :T
reminds me of a virtual reality game i play called vrchat, i dont speak in game and dont know sign language yet, but i manage to communicate with people successfully through actions in a similar way to what you've described
Stories like what you've said remind me of the vast improvement many non-verbal people show when they're given tools like an ipad loaded with images to pick from. I know they're becoming popular for kids, but a daughter of a friend of my parents was given one relatively recently, and even as a grown adult she took to it like a fish to water. Just because someone cannot speak doesn't mean they cannot think! (Also, how dare Judy take that fanny pack. :P)
See, and that's why you don't trust Judy. She could at least ask!
@@ZenoDovahkiin oof
This made me think of a quote from my favorite author, Terry Pratchett:
"Science is not about building a body of known “facts”. It is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good."
@@cibo889 scientists are human. The scientific process is there as a check against that tendency. This story is an example of that process working in the end. It just took a little longer than we normally like in this case.
@@cibo889 5 years isn't really very long, though I was thinking this was a period of more like 10-20 (it's been a little while since I last watched the video).
What we really need to stop doing is jumping on every new result as though it were an exciting new truth. That or help people understand the scientific process better so they know to take this sort of thing with a grain of salt or at least not get upset when something is disproven later.
Which is a nonsensical, self-contradictory statement; cause *reality* in and of itself is composed of said "body of known facts". There's no way to distinguish the two without semantic pedantry, ironically indulging the very same perceived notions that pretentious statement allegedly seeks to debunk.
@@thrace_bot1012 lmao shut the fuck up
@@thrace_bot1012 Not necessarily. Reality is not a body of facts, it's a process of breaking everything down until basic logic says either "true", "not enough data", "wrong question" or "false".
I made the mistake of putting this video on just after getting home from a 3 mile walk with my Husky mix… you did NOT have to say “walkies” that many times in the first five minutes, now this boy is looking at me like, “yeah, let’s go again!” 😭🤣
I really want to know what Coco thinks about the trade deficit.
That our current model is unsustainable, inefficient, self-contradictory, and damages both human society and the world at large, and that worker ownership is and always was the only solution 😎😎😎
Global Corporate or Black Market / Tor-Bit?
@@Yet.Another.Rapper.KiG.V2 I knew it. Gorillas are commies.
@@JayRNaylor that would explain why they never created a civilisation.
@@Mbeluba Are you implying that if Gorillas were capitalists they would have built a civilisation?
There's something very dark about coaching a trained gorilla to give a speech it itself can't understand.
Not to mention a speech about human corruption of nature, when this gorilla has never been allowed to have a normal, natural life due to people's whims
It like when people bring children to protests and they can't even read the signs they are holding.
knowingly being dishonest to oneself and the people around them and attempting to manipulate people, also the trainer displayed "love" to the Gorilla but that comes in to question when you realize that Koko was a political tool especially after her death. I wonder if the trainer knew all along that Koko was not speaking or deluded herself in to it.
Yeah and they didn't even let her live in her own troup in a sanctuary just so they could use her for research. I feel sad for her because she was a very social animal. These researchers shouldn't say anything.
Gorillas use some kind of sign language in the wild tho? We cannot say for sure if Koko understood. The only way would to ever know that is if you put two gorillas who were taught sign language together. Of course that will never happen now. But it isn’t anymore cruel than owning a dog which humans literally bred to become completely reliant on our care. Teaching a bunch of gorillas may be the key to keeping them from extinction. By becoming smarter they could’ve survive better idk. I do think keeping koko completely sheltered was wrong and not fair to the animal.
My 30-year-old parrot knows a short list of words and phrases, which he uses almost entirely in context, and he does often behave as if he understands some of what we are saying. He will say "Uh-oh" if someone drops something or leaves the door open, and will keep saying it until the problem is rectified. But he can't tell us what exactly is wrong, only alert us that something is out of place, which is normal bird behavior.
It was odd that they didn't address parrots in this video. Mine has (unintentionally) learned "goddammit," and uses it when she is upset, or if she senses that I am in a bad mood. She will do it completely unprompted, without the word being spoken that day. And since birds in particular use differing sounds to communicate different needs, it may not technically qualify as language use, but if there is a spectrum, she is closer to the understanding pole than the not understanding pole.
@@notmee2388 It's pretty much the same behavior the video talks about. The only difference is that a parrot can mimic the sounds of spoken language. Your parrot only associated "goddamit" with stress. When it's stressed, or notices you stressed, it says that. It is mimicking what you'd normally do, and that's just it.
One guy told me about a parrot that was given to an animal shelter after being raised by a bunch of college guys. The parrot’s response to being examined by the vet was, “FUCK YOU!”
@@jamiethedinosaur869 My spirit animal. Hehe.
@@ggwp638BC Is that not what learning a language is? The people around you make a specific noise or word in a specific situation and you learn that that noise/word means that situation. If the parrot understands that "goddammit" is a noise people make when stressed because something has gone wrong and it says that same word to tell the humans "hey, something is wrong" how is it not using language? You only know the meanings of the words you know because someone taught you the context or used them in context around you, and parrots are doing it mostly from observing context around them rather than being directly taught like babies.
The fact that locking eyes is a sign of aggression in great apes and Koko’s constant looking away whenever someone is trying to get her to speak is… uncomfortable and upsetting…
she was born in captivity, it wouldn't mean anything to her
@@TheRed02151It might. Some behavior is instinctive. Monkeys born in captivity will still show a fear grimace if they're scared, which idiot humans think is a smile. They'll also lipsmack to say "I'm not a threat, don't hurt me." The eye contact thing in apes could be instinct too.
She's still an ape. It's a genetic thing, she'd still know that about eye contact @@TheRed02151
I was momentarily skeptical when Koko named her kitten, "all ball". It made no sense and it rhymed orally. But then I got so fascinated with the whole project that my skepticism faded. Now I find out, I was on the right track and willingly put on the blinders to enjoy the idea of talking to a gorilla.
I named my first cat muffin for no other reason that I wanted a cat named muffin. (I was 4)
I named my cat Coco, because her favorite drink is chocolate milk and chocolate milk was just too long. 😅
I named my first cat Mokey bc it was the name of my fave puppet in Fraggle Rock and was 4 too. 😂 Kids name pets for all kinds of ways.
my brother named his hen Batman bc he likes Batman. also he was 6.
My dawgs name is dino
"Does he learn socially acquired linguistic rules like not interrupting people when they're talking?"
I mean if a lot of humans can't learn that, that's a pretty high bar for a chimp to clear.
True!
Interrupting because you don’t understand language < not interrupting because you’re listening to language < interrupting because you understand what’s being said and want to interject < not interrupting because you understand social rules
To quote a meme - the current majority of my educational acquisition - "I'm sorry, did the middle of my sentence interrupt the beginning of yours?"
There was a popular panel-type discussion show on cable, you probably know the one, I can't remember the name. I tried a couple of times to watch it, but it seemed the members did almost nothing *except* interrupt and talk over each other. Nobody finished a sentence. To me, there was no value to watching it at all, no matter how informed the panel members were supposed to be. One of the worst downsides of telephone conversations, in my opinion, is that two people can start talking at the same time, and have to work out who stops to listen and who speaks. In face-to-face conversation, we generally have cues that a person is about to speak, and can defer to them.
@@BruceS42 The O'Reilly Factor is like this-made it obnoxious to watch even when I was a conservative.
Ok, whoever handed the abused captive ape a kitchen knife has a set of brass balls that could snuff out the sun.
That was no baby knife either
@James Patrick i wouldnt be as scared as a mouse being chased by a cat, cause i know not to look in their eyes, and that their not gonna randomly crush your hands because they are not dangerous, they are peaceful
@@kamilciura7953 Could we please not talk about "apes" as though they all behaved the same? There's solitary ones, sex-obsessed ones, ones with just one dominant male and then there's that one that invented the internet.
@@Morrigi192 I never said they were. However talking about them as though they all have dominant males or wage wars is wrong. Each species is amazingly complex and individuals differ wildly. There is orangutans that live completely solitary lives, only mating and then running off again. Others form groups. There is bonobo groups that have dominant males working alongside a dominant female, completely matriarchal communities etc. They aren't known to wage war, but of course there's aggression and individuals will support each other when it happens. Gorillas and chimps have both been observed fighting other groups in an organized fashion, gorillas do it regardless of gender (female chimps don't partake) but also usually don't go after fleeing individuals, which chimps do. Also, the frequency of violence varies wildly depending on species.
The internet-ape for example is by far the least aggressive ape with likelihood of violent interaction being a fraction of other apes'. (I would like to recalculated this likelihood in the aforementioned internet-environment though. I think aggression is way more likely there.)
No they were just an idiot
i'm learning asl right now, and i just wanna say THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for bringing up the very real issue of oralism and audism!!! i'm a hearing person, so i don't know how much i can really say accurately, but i do know its a severely underacknowledged topic and i REALLY appreciate you mentioning it :)
So, to summarise the conclusions in one pithy comment:
Koko's researcher: "Hello Koko, this is . Say hello!"
Koko: "Me orange eat orange want eat orange me eat me orange"
Koko's researcher: "Oh how sweet, she's saying she wants to invite you for a formal dinner to discuss the issues of late stage capitalism"
Celebrity: "Wow!"
Koko: "Give orange eat me eat orange want orange!"
Poetry, my friend. Poetry. 😀
More like:
Koko's researcher: "Hello Koko, this is . Say hello!"
Koko: "Me orange eat orange want eat orange me eat me orange"
Koko's researcher: "Koko wants to see your nipples."
Koko's researcher: "Hello Koko, this is . Say hello!"
Koko: "Show us yer tits!"
Conclusion: Koko was obviously just a very hairy construction worker.
@@calebfuller4713 I exhaled slightly harder after reading this
@@calebfuller4713 "Koko" did not have this in mind when he joined the Witness Protection Program.
"do you like to chat with other people?"
"Fine nipple"
truly an expert communicator
She might've been unable to talk but the emotions she showed towards the baby cats and Mr. Rogers were genuine and frankly, that was the most interesting thing about her
She can clearly "talk," she just has no rules of language and grammar. She uses signs, with knowledge of what sign applies to what thing, to get what she wants. That's the ultimate utility of talking, so by any utilitarian standard, Koko "talks."
They're using a needlessly strict definition of "talk" that would exclude many actual humans! (Never interrupt?! What fantasy world is this?)
@@bcubed72 There's a ton of humans who can't talk, and quite a lot who don't understand language or grammar. They can, however, learn to associate a sound or body movement with a given thing or action, and have that sound or body movement be understood by other humans who will then provide them with the thing that they want. That's not called "talking," that's called "communication." My dog can do that, too. To quite specific degrees, even!
If my dog sits down by the footrest and starts crying, I know that his ball is stuck under the footrest. If he starts barking at the coffee table, I know his ball is stuck under the coffee table. If he shoves his face into my lap and knocks my computer out of my hands, I know he wants to be petted. If he barks at me, I know he wants to go outside. If my OTHER dog is bothering him, I know that it's time to feed them.
Not to mention all the people nowadays who are giving their pets "word buttons" with which to communicate -- but those dogs and cats aren't learning to *talk,* obviously. No more than using an AAC board or a communication grid or writing something down is "talking." They are, however, learning how to communicate.
Nobody's denying that Koko could communicate. Plenty of animals can, and so could she. But she definitely couldn't *talk.*
that's not really the point. All animals have emotions and can feel affectionate. My dog, for example, really loves me. Love and affection is something that we all have.
@@bcubed72 Koko can "talk", alright within shallow definition. But she cannot talk like human talk. My 5 years old nephew can form a sentence, write something rather gibberish and say "i write this". He also can start a conversation by asking "what are you playing?", "are you playing games?", "is that minecraft?", "is that a cartoon? what cartoon?"... Well, not in that tidy structure, but I can understand his sentence structure 80% of it, no second guesswork, or rationalization.
Koko, like video said, brute force her signs and randomly jumble something and human will guess what she tried to say by arranging whatever signs she came up with.
@Juan Nyam
Yeah, saying Koko "didn't stay 'on topic' and is thus 'not talking'" is a bit rich. Koko talked about what she wanted to talk about, and didn't pay no nevermind to what everybody else wanted! I mean, that may be a trifle selfish...but you can correct a Gorilla's manners, if you want to...I'll watch behind bulletproof glass, TYVM.
Hell, if "not answering the question before you" is "not talking," them most politician I know spend most of their lives "not talking" for a camera, because they ALWAYS shift questions into what THEY wanna talk about!
"A kid wouldnt say something this devoid of meaning or structure." As a teacher, i can honestly refute this claim.
Even adults say meaningless things sometimes.
@@ianfinrir8724 very true
Skibidi toilet rizz Ohio Kai cents baby gronk rizz king
Living proof right there
@@Nutlicker683 as a 28 year old that knows he's out of touch, if I saw this sentence online I wouldn't actually think this is nonsense, just that I don't understand it
This reminds me of Clever Hans. A horse who allegedly could count and even perform arithmetics, including multiplication and fractions.
Of course he couldn't instead he learned to interpret the body language of his caregivers and even strangers in order to give the desired answer.
That does indicate intelligence, just not the kind of intelligence researchers were looking for.
thats how i do math too...
Honestly that’s just as impressive.
i honestly doubt most animals CANT do basic math. wolves probably know how many rabbits theyre chasing after, and how many are left running when they see their friend rip one in half. they might not have the words or phrases we do to describe and communicate that information but theyve got eyes, eh?
@@gayanime8981 well counting actually is math, just to start. its a simple pattern of adding (a mathematical operation) 1 at each interval. so 1, 2, 3 etc you know how to count i wont bore you. but thats why i gave an example of an equation, the rabbit being ripped in two is a simple subtraction. i was simply inferring that most animals can likely perform very similar operations, obviously without terminology like we do, or go into more intense equations like multiplication or division.
@@gayanime8981 exactly! (to your previous comment): while they dont have the terminology of 'one, two, three' or whatever resembles it, it registers in their brain like it does ours, maybe not to the same extent of cognitive, meaningful equations, however. seems we agreed in the beginning but didnt know, friend.
That "brute forcing" for a treat can be seen in a lot of animals. The first trick I taught my dog was "shake" and now whenever I have something she really wants she offers that behavior.
I find it very easy to teach my dogs tricks, its waiting for the command that I can never get down. My dog will always sit when I have a treat, she will always attempt to shake before any command is given. It is quite frustrating and I've never really trained my dog to follow commands, just spamming every (trick) I've taught her until she gets a treat.
My dog has a wide range of commands she can recognize, and that without us having really done a good job of training her. She keeps needing more challenges, more things to learn. She seems happiest when she's trying to figure out something new. We'll bring home a new puzzle, and while it helps at first to put treats in, later we can just put in dog food, which she can have any time she wants (free fed), so that's clearly not the incentive. If I tell her to bring me a specific toy ("where's red ball?", "where's little ball"), she generally won't try to show me any other toy, unless she gets too excited, at which point her brain seems to short-circuit. When I tell her to "shake", she doesn't do the paw-raising thing though; she shakes her whole body, vigorously. I use that command to get her to dry herself a bit outside after a bath. She got pretty excited when, after discovering what "rabbit" meant, I told her "chase rabbit good. Bite rabbit good. Shake rabbit good." If she ever gets the chance to actually shake a rabbit, I'm sure she'll take it. OTOH, we adopted another dog at the same time, died last year, who was as smart as a cabbage. She barely knew her own name, and DGAF about what toy we asked for, though she had her own preferences. My dog would sometimes take the toy the other one seemed to want most, and hide it, sometimes to the point that we never found it again. Stupid dog apparently pissed her off sometimes.
@@adamjohnson2914 We had a Lab-Dalmatian mix that never walked, always ran. Say "Sit" and she'd sit then jump up as if to say, "Nailed it. Where's my treat?" The only human command she'd obey disconnected from treats or praise was "Go to bed." She'd run out to her bed on the patio in the hot summer and up the hall to her bed in the cold winter and collapse. In between, when she felt the weather changing, she'd go to her bed and start tugging it to the new location until we helped her move it.
@@BruceS42
Anyone who has spent time with animals can reconginze their intelligence varies wildly, as you have very succinctly described. My fiance has a Chihuahua who is the most polite and shy little thing I've ever seen, and who grew comfortable around me after a few visits as I proved I was trustworthy to her. She understands commands, generally how to avoid danger and dumb situations (she never runs outside without one of us, and always returns to the door before us), and will actually wander off if she wants attention but we are in the middle of doing something. She waits until we are free. Meanwhile a close friend has a number of dogs whose brains I am certain consist of a dry walnut, who don't seem to comprehend where food comes from let alone a command (there are bags of dog food on the floor which she won't poach, as well as she needs the food pointed out to her if it's in her bowl). Another friend had a cat who would hunt and eat what he caught for funsies, then go back inside and ask for his regular food.....all while having full silent conversations with my friend, which he would fully reply to with appropriate actions.
The intelligence of animals varies as wildly as it does with humans....but they always communicate as they would with their own kind. I always found it weird that Koko communicated with sign language, and hearing that wasn't actually the case makes much more sense.
I often question if the scientists who try to "discover" animal intelligence ever had a pet they truly bonded with, or if they had the pet and took care of it but never took the time to learn about them.
@@adamjohnson2914 I learned this with our second dog. I did a pattern to much (sit, lie down, roll over) and he would do it all at once right away. I had to start telling him to "wait" between each command and mix it up a bit.
the phrase “medical intuitive” is both hilarious and terrifying, if i was having a heart attack or some other medical emergency and someone said to me “Don’t worry, im a medical intuitive” i would both run and die of laughter
Considering you are having a heart attack, I find it dubious that you would run but very accurate that you would die in that scenario.
@@marzipancutter8144 Nah he would die of the heart attack way before the laughter
problem solved then?
Ever see David Mitchell's homeopathic Urgent Care ward? Wonderful!
One thing people didn’t realize is that Koko’s last words were not a pro-environmentalism message…
She was signing the entire communist manifesto for all ape proletariat brethren
@j.d.714watch the video he made about her
I love real demonstrations of animal intelligence, like ravens and crows communicating what bad people who mistreat them look like across multiple generations and groups. That is FASCINATING.
I dont think they communcate what someone looks like. Afaik they rather point at you and say "see, that's the f*cker"
@@derdurstbursch they do though. That's the hyper interesting part. There was a study in which a group of people wore masks and were mean to a group of crows, and for multiplel generations of crows and several different groups of crows, they would attack anyone who wore those masks. There is more to the study, but the whole point was that the crows were able to communicate the information without showing the others what the mask looked like.
When I tell people about this finding in the study, I don’t think people realize how incredible this is.
@@juggy-b9e right? I need to make friends with the ravens in my neighborhood.
@@derdurstbursch no, it's cross-generational visual recognition
It's not perfect either, they might just as easily harass a similar human, but its definitely visual
This reminds me of how most people interact with my parrot, Logan. His species is known to talk somewhat, but he mostly just imitates small semblances of things around him, usually sneezes, laughter, and kitchen sounds. All of this is just him trying to garner attention and him exclaiming things that are happening. Whenever someone tries to teach him something new, they teach it in a way a human would be taught. He's taught the individual syllables of a tune or phrase, and then they expect him to put it together, but he doesn't conjugate ideas the way humans do. He learns things in song formats, the entire phrase being instantly memorized from start to finish, every pause being taken into the "song" he hears. So, if you were to talk to him in baby talk to teach him something, he would imitate it perfectly, even the long pauses between the words. That's how birds learn songs in the wild. They think he's learning the phrase wrong, but they're really just teaching him wrong. If humans could study how to learn the "languages" of other animals, they could probably garner some actual meaning and insight into their minds
i agree, esp w ur last point!
!! thats such a succinct expression of the exact thing ive been thinking! its arrogant for humans to continuously attempt to project our communication standards onto other animals instead of trying to understand them more
@@godwintalking4724 unfortunately a lot of people are too dumb, its really a shame. and with what you said taken into account we should really be focusing more on bettering our own interspecies communication. as to what you said about your jumping spiders, animals definitely can have an impressive understanding of human communication and man made things around them, your jumping spiders sound very cute!
my gran had lost it for the last 2 decades, she could not remember my infant sister growing up and said where's Kahren to the point that he budgie which never spoke for its first few years said it perfectly almost as often as my gran did.
Look up Alex the parrot. Very insightful studies done with him
I dont know why she had to lie about Koko. It is amazing enough that Koko could even learn a couple of signs and know what they meant. Why pretend that she could fully speak?
Probably for the millions of dollars. Greed gets people to commit some pretty despicable actions. It's why you have to be cautious about believing famous scientists. Their fame and fortune likely matters far more to them than anything else.
Because she's a narcissistic who wanted to feel special
Because that's what the research at the time was about
money
I'd posit there was elements of her being (1) waaay too attached to Koko (you know, mother-child relationship, and that whole weirdness with nipples), and also (2) too prideful in her work. Both of those could certainly explain extensive denial and bias.
Genuinely just discovered this TH-cam channel, this video is 3 years old but damn, you’ve got my sense of humor and my sensibilities, subscribed.
I had a dog that would immediately run and piss on my bed every time I gave her a bath. (Needless to say I quickly learned to shut my door before bath time.). I think that act was a much more pure, eloquent expression than any of the forced signing of primates.
I have cats that urinate on clothing when they're taken to the vet, or if their litter boxes aren't cleaned regularly. They can figure out things we use, and they know how to inform us of their displeasure
@@kevint1929 animals dont have the emotional complexity for spite or malice, probably just a stress reaction? Cats are also very clean animals from what i understand, maybe it doesnt feel comfortable going toilet in an area that already feces or urine? I know dogs dont like doing their business near the place they sleep or eat.
@@eduardoperi9897 if my cat doesn't like something, she'll shit in my bathtub. Full stop.
One time she didn't like that my mom was making tuna and she didn't get any; With full access to a freshly clean litter box and the same litter we'vebeen using for years, she decided that my tub was the perfect place to take out her righteous vengeance.
my mum bought my dog a knitted jumper at a market on holidays. after a few nights of wearing it, he managed to take it off and drop it in the deep end of our pool while we were asleep, so we couldn’t reach it with ease. needless to say, he hated that jumper, and it was funny as hell. meanwhile my neighbours dog is just,, sometimes scared of going up stairs? not down, not always, and thinks barking at them will fix the problem. dogs are funny little things lmao
@@eduardoperi9897 "animals dont have the emotional complexity for spite or malice" Where did that assumption come from?
Lmao 16:15 talking about the “me eat me eat me me orange me eat made me orange” thing… “a kid wouldn’t say something this devoid of meaning” made me think about that poor stutter kid attempting to talk about dreams
Certified internet classic
WHEN YOU YOU YOU WHEN YOU WHEN WHEN YOU YOU WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN
Yet we have comrad Biden without the teleprompter... 🤣
@@awalkthroughtorah6897 Do you see anyone talking about anything political tho
@@dirtydan9785 it was something else on my mind. That's all. 🤪
So... the people trying to teach Koko sign language... DIDN'T. KNOW. SIGN LANGUAGE.
Brilliant.
People often forget that scientists are human too. They hold bias, lie, and make mistakes like everyone else does. Koko's situation is an extreme case but it's important to recognize that the mistakes Patterson made have been identified by the scientific community and properly scrutinized. Bad data is still data
There isn’t one sign language.
@@dstinnettmusic well apparently they didn't know ANY sign language
@@dstinnettmusic this is a bit pedantic. they were trying to teach koko any sign language and didn't know any sign language.
@@alyssinclair8598 A bit? it's like saying unless you know every single language you don't know (any) language.
Just from the Robin Williams story, it is safe to conclude that Koko was not making a "sounds like" comparison because brain fog made her forget the sign for "nice people"
"Your claims are difficult to take at face value because you have repeatedly failed to provide any evidence to back them up"
"You're just mad because your ape didn't communicate as well as mine does"
Penny, that's not the issue here.
It speaks to the gentle character of Koko that her frustration of having to deal with that woman all day did not make her snap and tear her head off. I felt like doing that within 2 minutes.
Koko was patient lol
When you said the researchers didn't even know proper sign language I threw my hands up. That right there negates ANY benefit from the research. Why would they not bring in people who actually communicate in sign language!?
Wait, are you sai scribbles?? or an imitator
@@rossbob4215 I don't know why anyone would imitate me. I'm just on TH-cam alot lol
It's not truue. People like the ones who made this propaganda movie will lie about everything just to make their point.
@@Dluxn8r they were mistreating that animal and you are falling for it
There isn't a monolithic sign language. Imo, it makes more sense to try to teach an ape some simplified made up sign language that would be easy for their less than dextrous hands to perform.
Even if they can't talk, it is pretty cool how they brute force their way through language to get a treat.
My dogs do the same thing with commands. They will just cycle through all the tricks they know without any prompting in order to get a treat. Sit, lay down, roll over, stand, dance, speak, heel.
They know which commands go to which trick, but when I don't give a command, they will do everything hoping one of them results in a treat.
Honestly, the more I look at AI and my cats, the more I think we're just brute-forcing it too. Guessing which word comes next in the sentence, one word at a time, after listening to thousands of conversations between my parents, teachers, friends, colleagues. Knowing which tricks lead to which treats, but, if my first trick didn't work, trying every other trick just to be thorough.
I would agree that giving Koko non-alcoholic beer is abuse. What kind of monster would deprive her of a proper beer.
lol proper beer
Lol 😂
Alcohol not allowed, but they'll kill her fatass with sugar??
A drunk gorilla would be a lot to handle.
My stepdad worked as a pilot in Congo, and he told me that he and his friends had a pet monkey there, who would check all the bags they brought from grocery store in search of beer cans, which it then proceeded to drink with great pleasure, climb on the fence of the house and start throwing it's feces into whoever passed by. So, monkeys do enjoy beer and I'm sure Koko would have enjoyed it too. Also non-alcoholic beer is fucking terrible.
Man, seeing the actual transcripts is like
Researchers: How are you today Koko?
Koko: qwerty
Researchers: qwerty is like query... yes, we did ask you a question! Very good!
Koko: asdf
Researchers: All... all signs do friends! Yes, yes, you're signing to us, your friends!
Koko: fghfgjfgh
I wonder if that's where "covfefe" came from; the researchers forgot to take his phone away at bedtime. I guess orangutans aren't any more articulate than gorillas.
@@CrashHeadroom he just made a joke lol
@@CrashHeadroom It's because the Progressives tap into the same psychology that fanatical religions do, inducing a state of intense moral certainty and a sectarian identity which views the moral outgroup as intrinsically evil. Similar to say the Calvinist Puritans, Islamists, etc. You can't compromise or just let something go, because then you are enabling evil. The Progressives developed out of waves of intense religiosity that swept across the Protestant world in (particularly) the 19th Century and then took on a secular character, replacing "because God says so" with "because my feelings say so".
@@CrashHeadroom You don't know the difference between Liberalism and leftism, do you? And can't take a harmless joke?
@@ian_b I'd love an example of these "moral outgroups" that the left separates and considers intrinsically evil. If you could be specific too and not just label an ideology. (i.e. "homophobia" or "racism" and not "Conservatives")
The coolest thing I learned here was that you can rhyme in sign language: something I never considered before.
Imagine the rap battles... :o
I think the oddest part is that words that rhyme in sign likely don't rhyme at all in spoken English
@@theinkqueen6522 Why would they? That is like being surprised that rhymes in Japanese don't work when translated into English. There is a reason anime jokes/puns or stuff like that usually don't make sense.
@@Alkis05 Rhyming is actually not common at all in Japanese, because of how the characters all end in a vowel and even normal sentences often end up rhyming by chance.
@@Alkis05 it's because you would expect sign language(s, it's not very sensible to treat them as different dialects when they are so different- though we call Chinese languages just dialects, as opposed to separate languages with a written linga franca) to match the written language of the area- the different sign languages should have their own script and written grammar, to actually match what is "spoken" in signs, but they don't, and it doesn't make much sense to me? Though I suppose that English plays a role there similar to Classical Chinese in (historical, and potentially rural) China? Someone should probably create a written form, or something, because that'd actually be pretty helpful in helping people learn it, and understand the grammatical and international differences between both signing and English.
I love learning animals body language so I can interact with them in a way they might be able to understand. When my rabbit looks up at the empty couch that my mom was bedridden on I can’t help but think she’s wondering where she is. My bunny and mom were best friends so it’s really hard to see her look up at the couch after all these years.
I understand. It's sad that scientists hyper-focus on spoken language and word-association. Animals aren't naturally good at that. ANY accomplishment that way - is astounding. What they ARE good at - is body language, and tone interpretation. Even with us humans - body language is around 75% of all our communication. We should be marveling at that.
(Like how lions and wolves wordlessly pick a target, and somehow just "know," without speaking.)
"My heart has joined the thousands for my friend stopped running today"
Koko handler is like those mother's who tries to people "my kid is so smart" while the kid is eating glue.
Me.
Tabgently related I knew a kid who had like pica or whatever it was called who graduated a year early
this would be a much more scathing comment if you included the words "convince" and "that"
@@jackwisniewski3859 Thanks for the correction. But, why did you send the dick pic? Not kool bro! Not kool.
"he's so advanced for his age"
The "brute forcing" bit almost reminds me of 'cold reading' wherein an alleged psychic communicates with an audience member's deceased loved ones.
"Ok, i hear a... uhm, does somebody know a person named (cue the 10 most common names)? Maybe someone who was a (extremely generic job) in (most popualted city near the place where the cold reader is performing)?" It's the same with zodiac signs or similar prophecies, for every person you throw off with your bullcrap there are 10 who'll say "Omg, that's totally me!"
@@valentinmitterbauer4196 I sense that you are a person who wishes that they could do better, and feels that they are disorganized and struggling through life.
.... Like literally every human in existence is / does.
Yeah, I remember reading about Koko, starting back in the actual 1970s, and thinking, "This is so cool!" Then when I read the transcript of the AOL "live chat", I was kind of dismayed that the "interpreter" came off like a bad psychic. It didn't help that I had recently read a piece by James Randi about his visit to a psychic and how he totally made a fool out of her.
I feel kind of ripped off now, after being so impressed by Koko naming her kitten "All Ball", and that she was human-like enough to lie to get out of trouble, and now it appears to have been a case of wishful thinking -- on everyone's part.
"Communicates with their loved ones" by making rapid fire, half formed guesses and interpreting expressions and responses to alter their statements midway through to reach approximately accurate but vague statements.
Yes, that's exactly it!
Take vagueness and make of it what suits your intentions.
I'm really glad he ended the video by suggesting that animals have deep inner worlds. The question is not "Can animals think and communicate the way we do?" The question is, to quote Frans de Waal, "Are we smart enough to know how smart animals are?" A dog can not only hear and see your emotions; it can actually smell them, because it has access to an olfactory world so vast and complex we can barely imagine it.
I know why I talk to my cats; because they can understand tone of voice, and it makes more sense to use words they can form weak associations with (I'm not sure if cats don't associate or refuse to acknowledge the associations with objects/words) instead of using gibberish which would be fundamentally as effective as English if I used the same tone of voice.
Honestly, I’ve begun to think that most animals are a lot smarter than we give them credit for. Even animals like fish and reptiles, animals commonly seen as “dumb” have been observed displaying some pretty complex and interesting behaviour. Hell, for example here, some studies suggest that animals all over the world are becoming nocturnal because of human activity, suggesting that they are better understanding what humans are and are finding ways to better avoid us.
@@hamishstewart5324 it's not that they are dumb, it's that they are so far below humans in intelligence that they are "dumb".