Hey all! I just wanted to say thank you for the support. I've been really enjoying making these videos and trying to approach Speedrunning videos from a unique perspective! If you have any questions or topics you want to see covered, feel free to leave them down below. Stay safe and hope you enjoy the videos :)
"You see mods.... i did not cheat, the universe conspired to help me." TBH, it would had been more beliable if he said that cosmic rays just swapped some bits in his device, that is something that while unlikely, can indeed happen.
@@diablo.the.cheater Didn't that happen to a speedrunner in SM64 and caused an upwarp in Tick-Tock Clock? There was even a bounty out for recreating the "glitch"
Funny thing about the guy who consumed the Rat Poison, he had to be partially carried by his crew across the finish line because he was inebriated and half-consious. Note that this was not considersd against the rules at the time.
@@BraxtonMeyer Strychnine was not uncommon "back in the day" of cycling. the method of strychnine and brandy was quite common before nutrition etc was well understood. Theory was brandy would dull the pain in their legs and "warm" them up, and the strychnine would fire the legs faster. it was a weird time back then.
The story at the end about the SMB1 speedruns that were only cheated because it was by children who just didn't really know better was adorable and put a smile on my face.
That segment near the end reminded me of how Apollo Legend (RIP) once successfully submitted a cheated run to the OoT board and put in video how easy it is to slip a cheated run through the cracks
@@KyotoCommentates 100% agree with the idea that it's not the best players that cheat "because they would've gotten the time anyways", but rather that's an idea that stems from sampling bias. So many runs on the leaderboards could be cheated and we wouldn't even know
I'm a musician, not a speed runner. If you're gonna fake being good at a instrument. You have to be an experenced musician to do it well. Muse music videos have the wrong drumming all the time for example. I'm not even a great drummer, but I can tell. Tell me if it applies to speed running.
Great vid. One example I don't see people talk about is mod abuse. Iv come across it a few times where a leaderboard is like a boys club where you won't get verified if your not friends with the group or people will straight up not verify runs because youv beaten their time.
That story about the Xbox disc reader having being manufactured by 4 different companies and thus have different levels of performance along the entire life cycle of the console, was very interesting.
I kinda don't understand why especially with CD games it's not standard to just subtract the loading times from runs. Unless it's something incredibly consistent like SMB's 21 frame rule, it doesn't seem fair that you should need to rely on aging tech that has always been inconsistent and just generally slow and terrible.
@@slashersoul2380 i have no technical knowledge so this is basically a swing in the dark, but i'm guessing it's extremely difficult to precisely define the specific points in time that separate loading times from normal gameplay. you really don't want the amount of time you can subtract from your run to be subjective, so if there isn't an objective and convenient way to delineate the boundary it's much easier for the mods (who presumably have real jobs too) to just include loading times and accept the unfairness.
@L Well said! If the emulators can be proven to perfectly emulate the hardware there shouldnt be an issue. Although that's also where the issue comes in for games like the spongebob one. There aren't any viable true-to-life emulators for the xbox360/ps3 era.
@@tenkaichi412no normal emulator really perfectly emulates hardware but there definitely is a line that is “good enough”. Saying this as someone that made a GameBoy and GameBoy Advance emulator. Even Nintendo’s official emulators used for the virtual console just pass a series of tests that conform closely enough to the hardware to play games properly, they’re not necessarily built attempting to simulate how the hardware is actually functioning, just to mimic all the observable effects that we know about that games commonly use. I think this is an important distinction because real modern hardware (like out of order pipelined CPUs operating on shared memory with multiple cores) is so complex that basically nobody knows how it works completely, not even the people that make it. Which is why we see horrible hardware vulnerabilities like spectre and meltdown. So if properly simulating hardware is a requirement for speed running then we will not see emulators meeting that standard possibly ever. But under normal operation, we can heavily abstract much of this complexity away and just copy the behavior we know about though. There just needs to be a well defined baseline level of behavior (or standardization of emulators) that emulators comply with. But we have to understand that that is a moving target as we learn more.
19:29 Perfect Dark is not a James Bond game. It is the spiritual successor to Goldeneye because it was made by the same people on the same engine and uses similar gameplay mechanics; but it takes place in a completely unrelated science fiction world.
To me it seems like speedrunning in general would suffer from so much less cheating if all runs for all games were timed to not include loading screens, sure it's more work but having to worry about inconsistencies between hardware, disc rot, splicing, etc. would be mostly over.
I don't see how timing schemas that exclude load times would in any way mitigate spliced runs. The point of a spliced run is to present a bunch of best-of segments _as if_ it were a one-shot run. That's still an appealing cheating method no matter the timing scheme.
I imagine that Fred was just jogging to the stadium to see who would actually win, then when he got close people started cheering him on - thinking the victor was he - and he just went along with it until somebody actually bothered to ask him if he had actually done the race
the perfect pure movement was the one that got me. I was just imagining watching a spliced run, or a TAS run that tried to slip through the cracks...ill be that guy that hits yall with the "????Thats perfect pure movement....he was clearly playing like a computer..."
I think the issue with the Rustemeyer one is that he was so close so often to getting 32/32, but kept getting thwarted by the efforts of the whole community. Totally fair by all parties, but he was fighting a major uphill battle. Burbank, though, had the 'luxury' of not being in contention at that point (he had been taking some records to stop the 32/32, sure, but he wasn't close to getting it himself) - so he saw how difficult it would be to do if he tried to do it straight up. So he was able to formulate a plan to counteract this (hoarding, to make it harder for the community to stop the effort), and it paid off. Basically, Rustemeyer has a right to feel a bit salty about all this. He was the first to get close, but didn't get it due to a massive effort against him, but because he got so close he basically paved the way for someone else to come in and get it. If he hadn't gotten so close himself, Burbank may not have realised that the community would band together against him if he tried to do it straight up - so the fact that Rustemeyer got so close and 'bit the bullet' significantly helped Burbank get it himself. I didn't read Burbank's apology, but I would hope he gave many kudos to Rustemeyer for helping him realise that he needed to do it this way.
Audio analysis cross-analyzed against known true runs is a really cool tool to catch splices. Splicers rarely consider sounds that humans cannot register.
I mean, you touched on it with the calculator issue, but it is the most controversial when it is not clear whether an action does count as cheating or not, see how certain strats are oftentimes banned, for example.
its such a grey area. i know for hollow knight community its been really tough deciding when something becomes a “major glitch” vs “minor glitch”. the modding in minecraft has been handled really poorly in my opinion, far beyond the calculators
Even outside of speedrunning, there's plenty of competitive games that use outside programs for information that are only legal because TECHNICALLY you can get that information yourself through righteous means. Hearthstone has a card tracker to see which cards are in your deck at any given time (the ones you can know); League of Legends let's you see a lot of information about your teammates and opponents before the match begins, etc.
My bro's intro was like MatPat's commentary ("Bigger animals make less babies but take care of them, unlike smaller animals, which make a lot of eggs but don't take care of them. The Ender Dragon...."
Before exposed, TSA was a huge inspiration for me to do my own speed runs, and I wouldn’t love speedrunning today if it weren’t for runs I watched from him on SDA. Truly heartbreaking when you find out a childhood hero was a big fat cheater the whole time. Thank God for ZFG, he’s my daddy now.
Interesting video with good narrative and editing! Kinda liked the ending part, very adorable :) This video was recommended to me, so finally TH-cam is doing some job.
I used to cheat in a speedrun before, in a niche retro game. I wanted to show that the rules were easy to exploit and impossible to enforce. Moderation took action and simplified them.
Disallowing calculators for an element of a speedrun that's been artificially created and injected into it by the community was misguided for a lot of reasons. One aspect I don't see discussed so much is the classism and ableism inherent in deciding that not being able to do math quickly without a calculator means you can't get competitive times in a video game that doesn't require any math at all for actual gameplay. It heavily favors people who have access to better education and no conditions like dyscalculia. If figuring out how to get somewhere with math was a core part of the gameplay it would be a different story, but it's not. We made it up and decided to exclude people who couldn't do it so we could feel smarter-than instead.
1:56 I’m so high that I had this video minimized while playing a game. I heard that tommy dude speak, looked at the vid and was like “huh I never watched one of this guys videos I didn’t know he made videos like this” 😂
I still don't get why Dan was hated on by the community so much. I know it'd be frustrating to work so hard to beat someones record, only for that person to reveal that they got a way better record two months ago and you're even further behind. But the thing is, a legit run is a legit run, regardless of when it was done.
I think the issue in this case arises from the fact that a lot of improvements in speedrunning are done by finding new tricks/routes. If I broadcast all my attempts and make sure the entire community learns the new strategies that I'm learning at the same time, and everyone else supposedly does that too, it feels like a stab in the back to have your shot at a first time record be taken by someone who choses not to do so. Especially when they are pretending as if they are sharing everything with the community.
Great video! I especially enjoyed the parallels between the marathon incident and the instances of cheating in speedrunning. It probably makes the topic a lot easier to understand to people with no experience in this community
As much as this short video covers. It's only a small part of the tip of the iceberg. I love seeing more and more cheaters getting caught and it makes you think of all the cheated runs that are still on the leaderboards.
The sport event mentioned in the video, actually had even more bad stuff instead of the ones OtherRuns mentioned. If you want to hear the whole story, youtuber Qxir made a great video detailing it called "The Worst Olympic Event in History | Tales From the Bottle". I recommend watching that because the Cheater and the Rat Poisoned Winner are just the tip of the iceberg.
Great video! Funnily enough, I am actually formerly Flowbee. Had a suspicion I would be mentioned in this video, and low and behold... Generally well put together! 1 thing you got wrong, but I wont blame you for it since just about everyone got that wrong. (In the 11:09 screenshot, I never actually replayed the cheated run on the instance I shared, making the "find" from the moderators a wrong conclusion. They were right I cheated, just not how I cheated. I'd pointed it out to them to avoid any possible legit runner being called fake at another time.) As for how I go about now.. Yeah I still run occasionally. Kind of stopped about half a year ago because I got a really good time (Legit, this time) but been getting slowly back into it again. You've earned my sub, for this video was honestly really entertaining and well-detailed! Edit: used a wrong word somewhere
Because of the unfairness of load times, making it so any person can get a world record on any device as long as they practice, the hollow knight speedrunning community made it so load times don’t count to the total time.
I love how you talk about the eye of ender in a Minecratt speedrun pointing to the center of a chunk, but use a clip from a version where it points to the corner of the chunk instead. (For the record, in the most recent versions of Minecraft, the eye points to 0,0 of a chunk, which is the corner. In the most popular version for speedrunning, however (1.16) it points to the center, or 8,8.)
Dude the background music is hilarious. You went from a classical piece (which I recognize, but I can't remember it's name, argh) to the mfing Arkham City main menu theme. I love Arkham City lol, thanks for that.
Lmao at that kid's voice changer and crap disguise in his ridiculous defense video. While you were out with friends I was at home practicing the -sword- Sanic! It's always weird when these people over-dramatize their life like they're the protagonist of their very own young adult novel.
I want to applaud your music choice for this video. I went from Arkham city loading scream to Paris nights from sly cooper 2. I’m mad I missed the first couple of songs now
Don't think regular old doping doesn't happen either. The Venn diagram of top runners in some games and people with access to prescription focus drugs or stimulants, medically needed or otherwise, may well be a circle.
Trick hoarding being seen as cheating is dumb imo. Yeah it's not a very sportsman way of competing, but it's not like they're playing in a way the other's couldn't, they just spent the time to learn new things that the other runners would also need to. And new runners would even have an advantage in seeing footage of it once posted.
Not to mention the fact that anybody else can achieve a new record during the hoarding period. If people were actually passionate enough about the runs to be pissed off about the hoarding, you'd expect them to also be constantly vying for that top position in the first place. If they let a category stagnate for long enough that a hoard can happen, well, that's on them.
@Bobbobley-i5n the practicioner doesn't matter here. we're strictly talking about the practice of trick hoarding in general. If hes bad complain about him seperately but if you have an argument for why trick hoarding is bad i'd love to hear it.
@@Bobbobley-i5n aparently cant find my first comment to delete it. Realized you were complaining about the channel who posted the video not the trick hoarder. Been a while since i saw the video. Anyway good point
A constant of this reality is that some people will cheat. Even if doing so comes at great cost and no conceivable benefit, there will always be a dickhead that cuts in line and gets aggressive to anyone that calls them out.
Another really excellent video! I really enjoy including more traditional competitions to show the similarities between those competitions and speedruns, and really like the Myth of Sisyphus included in your other video, I really think this is a particular niche that hasn't been carved out on this platform yet. All that to say, the MK64 hoarding situation seems out of place in this one, but I'm in the minority that thinks Dan didn't do anything wrong by hoarding. If speedrunning is to be considered on the same level as other competitive activities, the art of hiding information from the opponent is a very important part of the competition. I'm a big sports guy, played baseball through high school, and played rec football and basketball in college, and I still follow all of those sports, and a huge part of that is catching your opponent by surprise. The argument that speedrunning is supposed to be a more collaborative effort is certainly a valid point, but I think that then comes down to the rules the community sets. Things like requiring runs to be livestreamed, and not accepting offline runs should be included in the rules for these games if hoarding is going to be looked down upon. If it isn't in the rules, then I don't see a problem with using every competitive advantage you can get. I think the difference in opinion on that comes down to whether speedrunning is viewed by someone as competitive or collaborative, and specifically in the speedrunning community I see more people seeing it as a collaboration, while I enjoy watching the competitive aspect of it.
I won't lie, I read your name as "Alexander the Great" before reading the comment, so the entire time I was just thinking "Yeah this is an in character response"
While the mk64 unhoard may not be cheating in a traditional sense, one could still argue that Dan was not following the rules set by the community. Just like how Four wanted calculaters to be allowed in MineCraft, you can disagree with the rules. But iirc Dan actually got some sort of community punishment and was forced to live stream all his future attempts. It was all a pretty crazy situation. I can’t think of any others that really compare.
@@SmileyMPV I may be wrong, and that would change my entire viewpoint on the situation, but it was more along the lines of sportsmanship than community rules right? As for the punishment you're saying he got, that seems unfair if it was only regulated to him. I'm all for requiring livestreams to prevent hoarding, but Dan legit got those records and didn't break any rules, it's not like a situation where every run submitted needs to be heavily criticized for previous cheaters. I don't know, from what I've seen of it, mostly from Abyssoft's video on it, it seemed like a nepotism thing where Dan wasn't really liked all that much (perhaps with good reason) and got dogpiled. That seems to be a bigger issue in speedrunning since it is more collaborative than traditional sports. As much as I love watching speedrunning, I do dislike that part of it.
@@Alexander_Grant While I don't want to assume motives, the rest of the community probably could've been a better sport about it. Dan "only" hoarded 17 runs. While instantly granting him champion status, this still gave Mathias plenty of opportunity to catch up and surpass him again, let alone keep him from getting 32/32. Dan's apology seems sincere as well, so when Mathias later retires after failing to catch up again, saying he lost all respect for Dan, I can't help but think that's bad sportsmanship as well. The issue you bring up about speedrunning is honestly probably more an issue with the internet in general. People idolize one big figure, and when they get beef with someone, fans start dogpiling on them. I've seen people actually celebrate people not caring about Dan's 32/32, which to me shows they only ever cared about Mathias and not about MK64.
@@SmileyMPV That's probably the most beautifully written TH-cam comment I've ever seen, I agree with everything you wrote. It's definitely a problem with the internet in general.
Small correction. You say "two James bond games: Golden Eye and Perfect Dark" perfect dark is not a James Bond game despite being a spiritual successor to Golden Eye.
it's possible for a person to earnestly use all the justifications in the video to prove that the run is legit - sob story about how awesome but misunderstood they are (with inflation of their achievements), dismissing what people are saying by twisting their words (the thing with dolphin), and using some pseudoscientific or unfalsifiable circumstances due to misunderstanding how science works (there are quite a few people who come up with alternative science 'cos they don't understand actual science and think that there is a conspiracy that "hides the truth"). Ofc he could've just done it as a 'troll', due to understanding that he was caught and couldn't get out of it, so he may as well have fun with it - or it could've been a genuine attempt to remove his status as a cheater at least, i wouldn't be surprised if someone made a similar video and then continued to defend themself this way till no one cares, and i wouldn't be surprised if someone made similar video and later said they were just trolling at that point
Very nice video! My only critique: 9:47 While it feels impactful to say the full number, it's a little bit too much data for the viewer. I recommend showing the number and saying something like "over 18.4 quintilion"
Activision claiming that a time faster than 5.54 is impossible doesn't mean they were lying as 5.57 is the minimum, though it's a bit weird how they got to it.
Blaming the construction of the Three Gorges Damn for discrepancies your cheating caused is... an amazing move I have to say. That and the voice changing etcetera tells me that guy was definitely a troll.
Hey all! I just wanted to say thank you for the support. I've been really enjoying making these videos and trying to approach Speedrunning videos from a unique perspective! If you have any questions or topics you want to see covered, feel free to leave them down below. Stay safe and hope you enjoy the videos :)
shifting the blame of the cheating to the 3 gorges damn bending space and time is a chad move
"You see mods.... i did not cheat, the universe conspired to help me."
TBH, it would had been more beliable if he said that cosmic rays just swapped some bits in his device, that is something that while unlikely, can indeed happen.
@@diablo.the.cheater doug fan detected
@@diablo.the.cheater Didn't that happen to a speedrunner in SM64 and caused an upwarp in Tick-Tock Clock? There was even a bounty out for recreating the "glitch"
@@yourik.1260 What is a doug?
@@gorgit Douglas Douglas
That Bruce guy HAD to have been a troll. There's no way he legitimately thinks people would've bought that explanation.
Nah, he's just better than all of us.
nah he's just built different
He just has a really good gaming chair
“Play like a computer, my father always said” 😂😂😂😂😂
so obviously a troll, im surprised anyone fell for it
Funny thing about the guy who consumed the Rat Poison, he had to be partially carried by his crew across the finish line because he was inebriated and half-consious.
Note that this was not considersd against the rules at the time.
Ok, that stretches it a bit for me, but goddamn that story is something wacky
@@BraxtonMeyer Strychnine was not uncommon "back in the day" of cycling. the method of strychnine and brandy was quite common before nutrition etc was well understood. Theory was brandy would dull the pain in their legs and "warm" them up, and the strychnine would fire the legs faster. it was a weird time back then.
Lmao Bruce is either a sweet, baby bad troll, or someone who thinks he's an anime antagonist
hes an anime antagonist and i love him
porque no los dos?
I think he thinks he's the 'complicated' protagonist of a young adult novel...
The story at the end about the SMB1 speedruns that were only cheated because it was by children who just didn't really know better was adorable and put a smile on my face.
Thank you. I thought it added a nice bit of levity to the story
lmao even though i read this comment before it appeared in the video, i still got a good chuckle out of it when i saw it.
they were babies
their reputation is TARNISHED FOREVER!! they deserve to be EXILED FROM THE Speedruning Community !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@@eyitsaperson When everyone was a kid they did stupid shit, I agree they should be banned until they get older though.
That segment near the end reminded me of how Apollo Legend (RIP) once successfully submitted a cheated run to the OoT board and put in video how easy it is to slip a cheated run through the cracks
Even funnier when you realize that it was the second attempt under the same username
@@KyotoCommentates 100% agree with the idea that it's not the best players that cheat "because they would've gotten the time anyways", but rather that's an idea that stems from sampling bias. So many runs on the leaderboards could be cheated and we wouldn't even know
I'm a musician, not a speed runner. If you're gonna fake being good at a instrument. You have to be an experenced musician to do it well. Muse music videos have the wrong drumming all the time for example. I'm not even a great drummer, but I can tell. Tell me if it applies to speed running.
Wait, what ..... what is that RIP in parentheses doing near Apollo Legend ....... don't dare telling me that he .......
@@sephikong8323 he committed suicide a couple years ago
15:07 This is the legendary "I'm not cheating, I'm just have a good gamer chair" man.
Great vid. One example I don't see people talk about is mod abuse. Iv come across it a few times where a leaderboard is like a boys club where you won't get verified if your not friends with the group or people will straight up not verify runs because youv beaten their time.
What games was this on?
"play like a computer my father always said"💀
My favorite part of the video was when you discussed How Speedrunners Cheat! Very cool!
I like that part too :)
same
Is mobius time!
Did I do it right?
What happened after they found out you technically broke the rules? did they do anything or just leave you be?
@@SECONDQUEST you have to create a form to explain yourself
That story about the Xbox disc reader having being manufactured by 4 different companies and thus have different levels of performance along the entire life cycle of the console, was very interesting.
I kinda don't understand why especially with CD games it's not standard to just subtract the loading times from runs. Unless it's something incredibly consistent like SMB's 21 frame rule, it doesn't seem fair that you should need to rely on aging tech that has always been inconsistent and just generally slow and terrible.
@@gregoryford2532 how?
@@slashersoul2380 i have no technical knowledge so this is basically a swing in the dark, but i'm guessing it's extremely difficult to precisely define the specific points in time that separate loading times from normal gameplay. you really don't want the amount of time you can subtract from your run to be subjective, so if there isn't an objective and convenient way to delineate the boundary it's much easier for the mods (who presumably have real jobs too) to just include loading times and accept the unfairness.
A lot of leaderboards do indeed subtract load times. I don't know why others don't, I assume there are reasons that make sense to the community.
@L Well said! If the emulators can be proven to perfectly emulate the hardware there shouldnt be an issue. Although that's also where the issue comes in for games like the spongebob one. There aren't any viable true-to-life emulators for the xbox360/ps3 era.
@@tenkaichi412no normal emulator really perfectly emulates hardware but there definitely is a line that is “good enough”. Saying this as someone that made a GameBoy and GameBoy Advance emulator. Even Nintendo’s official emulators used for the virtual console just pass a series of tests that conform closely enough to the hardware to play games properly, they’re not necessarily built attempting to simulate how the hardware is actually functioning, just to mimic all the observable effects that we know about that games commonly use.
I think this is an important distinction because real modern hardware (like out of order pipelined CPUs operating on shared memory with multiple cores) is so complex that basically nobody knows how it works completely, not even the people that make it. Which is why we see horrible hardware vulnerabilities like spectre and meltdown. So if properly simulating hardware is a requirement for speed running then we will not see emulators meeting that standard possibly ever. But under normal operation, we can heavily abstract much of this complexity away and just copy the behavior we know about though. There just needs to be a well defined baseline level of behavior (or standardization of emulators) that emulators comply with. But we have to understand that that is a moving target as we learn more.
Didn't expect to see Bruce in this video, the SA2 community hasn't had much in the way of cheaters but he's definitely been the funniest. Nice video!
19:29 Perfect Dark is not a James Bond game. It is the spiritual successor to Goldeneye because it was made by the same people on the same engine and uses similar gameplay mechanics; but it takes place in a completely unrelated science fiction world.
To me it seems like speedrunning in general would suffer from so much less cheating if all runs for all games were timed to not include loading screens, sure it's more work but having to worry about inconsistencies between hardware, disc rot, splicing, etc. would be mostly over.
I don't see how timing schemas that exclude load times would in any way mitigate spliced runs. The point of a spliced run is to present a bunch of best-of segments _as if_ it were a one-shot run. That's still an appealing cheating method no matter the timing scheme.
I do agree it'd mitigate the need for console modifications by otherwise legitimate runners, though.
I really liked the olympics analogies! Cool little bits of history to tie in to modern day speedrunning is so fun
I imagine that Fred was just jogging to the stadium to see who would actually win, then when he got close people started cheering him on - thinking the victor was he - and he just went along with it until somebody actually bothered to ask him if he had actually done the race
He really is just better than us all
8:00 im upset "perfect pure movement" and 'play like a computer' my father always said" arent widely used inside jokes in the speedrunning community
the perfect pure movement was the one that got me. I was just imagining watching a spliced run, or a TAS run that tried to slip through the cracks...ill be that guy that hits yall with the "????Thats perfect pure movement....he was clearly playing like a computer..."
@@xiphosmaniac ong we gotta spread the perfect pure movement gospel brother
The Bruce guy is definitely just a troll.. that shit is hilarious
I think the issue with the Rustemeyer one is that he was so close so often to getting 32/32, but kept getting thwarted by the efforts of the whole community. Totally fair by all parties, but he was fighting a major uphill battle.
Burbank, though, had the 'luxury' of not being in contention at that point (he had been taking some records to stop the 32/32, sure, but he wasn't close to getting it himself) - so he saw how difficult it would be to do if he tried to do it straight up. So he was able to formulate a plan to counteract this (hoarding, to make it harder for the community to stop the effort), and it paid off.
Basically, Rustemeyer has a right to feel a bit salty about all this. He was the first to get close, but didn't get it due to a massive effort against him, but because he got so close he basically paved the way for someone else to come in and get it. If he hadn't gotten so close himself, Burbank may not have realised that the community would band together against him if he tried to do it straight up - so the fact that Rustemeyer got so close and 'bit the bullet' significantly helped Burbank get it himself.
I didn't read Burbank's apology, but I would hope he gave many kudos to Rustemeyer for helping him realise that he needed to do it this way.
The use of the Badabun faked smb1 run in the background during the Dragster bit is a great easter egg :D
Audio analysis cross-analyzed against known true runs is a really cool tool to catch splices. Splicers rarely consider sounds that humans cannot register.
I mean, you touched on it with the calculator issue, but it is the most controversial when it is not clear whether an action does count as cheating or not, see how certain strats are oftentimes banned, for example.
its such a grey area. i know for hollow knight community its been really tough deciding when something becomes a “major glitch” vs “minor glitch”. the modding in minecraft has been handled really poorly in my opinion, far beyond the calculators
Even outside of speedrunning, there's plenty of competitive games that use outside programs for information that are only legal because TECHNICALLY you can get that information yourself through righteous means. Hearthstone has a card tracker to see which cards are in your deck at any given time (the ones you can know); League of Legends let's you see a lot of information about your teammates and opponents before the match begins, etc.
My bro's intro was like MatPat's commentary ("Bigger animals make less babies but take care of them, unlike smaller animals, which make a lot of eggs but don't take care of them. The Ender Dragon...."
Splicing IRL.. HAHAHAHA
I love this video, instant like
Just wanted to say, really loving the content lately.
It was just such a seamless Splice, really not sure how he got caught...
Thank you btw, I really appreciate it.
youre telling me that guy drunk rat poison, got high, and STILL got the gold medal? dude is insane
Before exposed, TSA was a huge inspiration for me to do my own speed runs, and I wouldn’t love speedrunning today if it weren’t for runs I watched from him on SDA. Truly heartbreaking when you find out a childhood hero was a big fat cheater the whole time. Thank God for ZFG, he’s my daddy now.
ZFG is a Zelda God. That man breaks OOT in so many ways that he makes no logic randos look easy.
Interesting video with good narrative and editing! Kinda liked the ending part, very adorable :) This video was recommended to me, so finally TH-cam is doing some job.
I used to cheat in a speedrun before, in a niche retro game. I wanted to show that the rules were easy to exploit and impossible to enforce. Moderation took action and simplified them.
Activision never had a Simulation with "the best possible inputs" for dragster. Todd Rogers simlpy claimed this and nobody verified this story ...
I wanna see a speedrunner openly use every single cheating method they possibly can to see how fast they can actually complete a game
That's the TAS category - tool assisted speedruns.
@@ebengis perfect misunderstanding of the TAS category and disregard to how much effort people put into TAS runs.
@@adventofnullI think he was including lying about times since the original idea was using every cheat possible
@@adventofnullyou said cheating every way possible is the tas category and then accuse someone else of misunderstanding tas lmao!
Disallowing calculators for an element of a speedrun that's been artificially created and injected into it by the community was misguided for a lot of reasons. One aspect I don't see discussed so much is the classism and ableism inherent in deciding that not being able to do math quickly without a calculator means you can't get competitive times in a video game that doesn't require any math at all for actual gameplay. It heavily favors people who have access to better education and no conditions like dyscalculia. If figuring out how to get somewhere with math was a core part of the gameplay it would be a different story, but it's not. We made it up and decided to exclude people who couldn't do it so we could feel smarter-than instead.
I hope Snap's speedruns were reinstated after they confirmed he never modified the xbox. He really did have a god-tier console hahaha
That intro was the best bait and switch and switch I've ever seen
1:56 I’m so high that I had this video minimized while playing a game. I heard that tommy dude speak, looked at the vid and was like “huh I never watched one of this guys videos I didn’t know he made videos like this” 😂
At least Matthias Rustemeyer took back the champ title in Dec 2022.
Long live the King
I still don't get why Dan was hated on by the community so much. I know it'd be frustrating to work so hard to beat someones record, only for that person to reveal that they got a way better record two months ago and you're even further behind. But the thing is, a legit run is a legit run, regardless of when it was done.
I think the issue in this case arises from the fact that a lot of improvements in speedrunning are done by finding new tricks/routes. If I broadcast all my attempts and make sure the entire community learns the new strategies that I'm learning at the same time, and everyone else supposedly does that too, it feels like a stab in the back to have your shot at a first time record be taken by someone who choses not to do so. Especially when they are pretending as if they are sharing everything with the community.
OMG the Bruce Mittenger incident. Shit was so silly.
The Legend of Bruce will be told for generations lmao
Great video! I especially enjoyed the parallels between the marathon incident and the instances of cheating in speedrunning. It probably makes the topic a lot easier to understand to people with no experience in this community
This is why Fireboy and Watergirl speedrunning is the best. Zero known cases of cheaters :)
Hard to argue; must be true
watergirl 🥵
Bruce's trolling is legendary. Damn guy still cheated and deserves to be banned but that trolling is legendary.
As much as this short video covers. It's only a small part of the tip of the iceberg. I love seeing more and more cheaters getting caught and it makes you think of all the cheated runs that are still on the leaderboards.
"I DIDNT cheat! My local hydroelectric plant distorted spacetime!"
*A hydroelectric plant thousands of miles away
The sport event mentioned in the video, actually had even more bad stuff instead of the ones OtherRuns mentioned. If you want to hear the whole story, youtuber Qxir made a great video detailing it called "The Worst Olympic Event in History | Tales From the Bottle". I recommend watching that because the Cheater and the Rat Poisoned Winner are just the tip of the iceberg.
Great video!
Funnily enough, I am actually formerly Flowbee.
Had a suspicion I would be mentioned in this video, and low and behold...
Generally well put together! 1 thing you got wrong, but I wont blame you for it since just about everyone got that wrong.
(In the 11:09 screenshot, I never actually replayed the cheated run on the instance I shared, making the "find" from the moderators a wrong conclusion. They were right I cheated, just not how I cheated. I'd pointed it out to them to avoid any possible legit runner being called fake at another time.)
As for how I go about now.. Yeah I still run occasionally. Kind of stopped about half a year ago because I got a really good time (Legit, this time) but been getting slowly back into it again.
You've earned my sub, for this video was honestly really entertaining and well-detailed!
Edit: used a wrong word somewhere
I am borderline addicted to hearing about cheaters getting caught and exposed.
Because of the unfairness of load times, making it so any person can get a world record on any device as long as they practice, the hollow knight speedrunning community made it so load times don’t count to the total time.
Never thought I'd see the day where a marathon runner would be compared to a splicer. (And other sports cheating analogies!) Great video!
I hadn't even considered that record hoarding was a thing until recently.
A great video, plz don't stop making new ones 💯
New video on the 10th :)
I wasn’t expecting the Sly Cooper music while watching, but it was greatly appreciated. I’ve got my PsVita and I’m fixin to relive my childhood😂
the sly cooper music got me feeling nostalgic
I love how you talk about the eye of ender in a Minecratt speedrun pointing to the center of a chunk, but use a clip from a version where it points to the corner of the chunk instead.
(For the record, in the most recent versions of Minecraft, the eye points to 0,0 of a chunk, which is the corner. In the most popular version for speedrunning, however (1.16) it points to the center, or 8,8.)
15:24 thats some wild butterfly effect
That sonic speedrunner's video is so funny, similar to the story of Cowen Hames😂
Love the early-mid 1900s old times history bait, keep em coming!
9:01 dude this shit unironically goes so hard, this man brought out the fuckin pressure cooker for this one
8:19 this is the most elaborate and ridiculous excuse I’ve ever heard
Dude the background music is hilarious. You went from a classical piece (which I recognize, but I can't remember it's name, argh) to the mfing Arkham City main menu theme. I love Arkham City lol, thanks for that.
0:30 informed consent when
Lorz made the sentence "spliced run" make 100000% more sense
Lmao at that kid's voice changer and crap disguise in his ridiculous defense video. While you were out with friends I was at home practicing the -sword- Sanic!
It's always weird when these people over-dramatize their life like they're the protagonist of their very own young adult novel.
I love how petty some of this stuff is. Factoring load times into speedruns is nonsense, along with banning calculators.
Imagine asking for some water and your coach goes "nah bro, down this rat poison with a shot of grey goose" like WHAT
"my math crafted what was possible"
I want to applaud your music choice for this video. I went from Arkham city loading scream to Paris nights from sly cooper 2. I’m mad I missed the first couple of songs now
Don't think regular old doping doesn't happen either. The Venn diagram of top runners in some games and people with access to prescription focus drugs or stimulants, medically needed or otherwise, may well be a circle.
Trick hoarding being seen as cheating is dumb imo. Yeah it's not a very sportsman way of competing, but it's not like they're playing in a way the other's couldn't, they just spent the time to learn new things that the other runners would also need to. And new runners would even have an advantage in seeing footage of it once posted.
Not to mention the fact that anybody else can achieve a new record during the hoarding period. If people were actually passionate enough about the runs to be pissed off about the hoarding, you'd expect them to also be constantly vying for that top position in the first place. If they let a category stagnate for long enough that a hoard can happen, well, that's on them.
Agreed. There's a leaderboard. It's a competition at the end of the day. You are not entitled to share your strategies or discoveries.
Hey, it's OtherRuns you're talking about. Someone who opted to use controversy to get clout.
@Bobbobley-i5n the practicioner doesn't matter here. we're strictly talking about the practice of trick hoarding in general. If hes bad complain about him seperately but if you have an argument for why trick hoarding is bad i'd love to hear it.
@@Bobbobley-i5n aparently cant find my first comment to delete it. Realized you were complaining about the channel who posted the video not the trick hoarder. Been a while since i saw the video. Anyway good point
I like these videos because you always throw in historical or outside stories and metaphors
A constant of this reality is that some people will cheat. Even if doing so comes at great cost and no conceivable benefit, there will always be a dickhead that cuts in line and gets aggressive to anyone that calls them out.
Another really excellent video! I really enjoy including more traditional competitions to show the similarities between those competitions and speedruns, and really like the Myth of Sisyphus included in your other video, I really think this is a particular niche that hasn't been carved out on this platform yet. All that to say, the MK64 hoarding situation seems out of place in this one, but I'm in the minority that thinks Dan didn't do anything wrong by hoarding. If speedrunning is to be considered on the same level as other competitive activities, the art of hiding information from the opponent is a very important part of the competition. I'm a big sports guy, played baseball through high school, and played rec football and basketball in college, and I still follow all of those sports, and a huge part of that is catching your opponent by surprise. The argument that speedrunning is supposed to be a more collaborative effort is certainly a valid point, but I think that then comes down to the rules the community sets. Things like requiring runs to be livestreamed, and not accepting offline runs should be included in the rules for these games if hoarding is going to be looked down upon. If it isn't in the rules, then I don't see a problem with using every competitive advantage you can get. I think the difference in opinion on that comes down to whether speedrunning is viewed by someone as competitive or collaborative, and specifically in the speedrunning community I see more people seeing it as a collaboration, while I enjoy watching the competitive aspect of it.
I won't lie, I read your name as "Alexander the Great" before reading the comment, so the entire time I was just thinking "Yeah this is an in character response"
While the mk64 unhoard may not be cheating in a traditional sense, one could still argue that Dan was not following the rules set by the community. Just like how Four wanted calculaters to be allowed in MineCraft, you can disagree with the rules. But iirc Dan actually got some sort of community punishment and was forced to live stream all his future attempts. It was all a pretty crazy situation. I can’t think of any others that really compare.
@@SmileyMPV I may be wrong, and that would change my entire viewpoint on the situation, but it was more along the lines of sportsmanship than community rules right?
As for the punishment you're saying he got, that seems unfair if it was only regulated to him. I'm all for requiring livestreams to prevent hoarding, but Dan legit got those records and didn't break any rules, it's not like a situation where every run submitted needs to be heavily criticized for previous cheaters.
I don't know, from what I've seen of it, mostly from Abyssoft's video on it, it seemed like a nepotism thing where Dan wasn't really liked all that much (perhaps with good reason) and got dogpiled. That seems to be a bigger issue in speedrunning since it is more collaborative than traditional sports. As much as I love watching speedrunning, I do dislike that part of it.
@@Alexander_Grant While I don't want to assume motives, the rest of the community probably could've been a better sport about it. Dan "only" hoarded 17 runs. While instantly granting him champion status, this still gave Mathias plenty of opportunity to catch up and surpass him again, let alone keep him from getting 32/32. Dan's apology seems sincere as well, so when Mathias later retires after failing to catch up again, saying he lost all respect for Dan, I can't help but think that's bad sportsmanship as well.
The issue you bring up about speedrunning is honestly probably more an issue with the internet in general. People idolize one big figure, and when they get beef with someone, fans start dogpiling on them. I've seen people actually celebrate people not caring about Dan's 32/32, which to me shows they only ever cared about Mathias and not about MK64.
@@SmileyMPV That's probably the most beautifully written TH-cam comment I've ever seen, I agree with everything you wrote. It's definitely a problem with the internet in general.
As a speedrun admin this is super helpful as a refresher.
Small correction. You say "two James bond games: Golden Eye and Perfect Dark" perfect dark is not a James Bond game despite being a spiritual successor to Golden Eye.
9:50 aren’t there even more since those seeds with content from updates couldn’t have existed at launch?
This was super interesting and well made. It had a lot of really good points. I'm glad I got this in my recommended.
That sly cooper music got me in my feels man.
I love your illustrations in the beginning of your videos. You deserve wayyy more subs
Lmao, Bruce's video is so bizarre. Maybe satirical?
it's possible for a person to earnestly use all the justifications in the video to prove that the run is legit - sob story about how awesome but misunderstood they are (with inflation of their achievements), dismissing what people are saying by twisting their words (the thing with dolphin), and using some pseudoscientific or unfalsifiable circumstances due to misunderstanding how science works (there are quite a few people who come up with alternative science 'cos they don't understand actual science and think that there is a conspiracy that "hides the truth"). Ofc he could've just done it as a 'troll', due to understanding that he was caught and couldn't get out of it, so he may as well have fun with it - or it could've been a genuine attempt to remove his status as a cheater
at least, i wouldn't be surprised if someone made a similar video and then continued to defend themself this way till no one cares, and i wouldn't be surprised if someone made similar video and later said they were just trolling at that point
The xbox one is like the "Im lucky because I have a really good gaming chair" but it was a legit statement
I like how you played “One of a Kind” near the end of the video.
Very nice video! My only critique: 9:47 While it feels impactful to say the full number, it's a little bit too much data for the viewer. I recommend showing the number and saying something like "over 18.4 quintilion"
Activision claiming that a time faster than 5.54 is impossible doesn't mean they were lying as 5.57 is the minimum, though it's a bit weird how they got to it.
Once the Minecraft section popped in I heard the sly Cooper music and got nostalgic, everytime
honestly man if I found a trick that changed the way the game was played, I'd get a run, then immediately upload a pre made tutorial on how to do it
I was half asleep so when I heard the sly cooper music I started half dreaming about it and searching for my controller in my bed to play it :')
Love the timeless river in the background!
When you talk about an IRL long-distance runner *splicing* the run.
The sky Cooper music!! Also great video!
At 15:47 you mention someone named Todd Rogers,
I believe you mean Todd Togers!
The Bruce dude cracked me the fuck UP, my jaw just dropped further every time he opened his mouth 💀
oh also im subbscribing, this video slapped
thanks for the tutorial bro. the minecraft rsg wr will be mine by next week
The Sly Cooper background music just brought me some deep memories. Thx for that.
Was just about to comment about sly cooper, the whole series will always be a classic
I usually don't watch clickbait thumbnails but this video appeared for me atleast 7 times now, so here I am
Bruce's video feels like a jerma bit it's hilarious
Bugleberry was his father who told him to play like a computer
the real life version of
“splicing clips together” 😂
Yeah I was thinking of Goldeneye and some meatspace sports when hoarding being described, thinking that it was pretty normal lol.
meatspace sounds like a homestucks term... 🧐
serial killer guy REALLY wants people to think he created all this tech before anyone ever thought any of it was possible lmao
Thanks for explaining How Speedrunners Cheat!! Very appreciated.
Blaming the construction of the Three Gorges Damn for discrepancies your cheating caused is... an amazing move I have to say.
That and the voice changing etcetera tells me that guy was definitely a troll.