Borthwick’s Grand (Hypothetical) Plan for England to win the 2027 World Cup! MORE PATIENCE NEEDED?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 มี.ค. 2024
- Borthwick’s Grand (Hypothetical) Plan for England to win the 2027 World Cup! MORE PATIENCE NEEDED?
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The problem is, all the fans and press say, "stick the kids in" but don't have the patience like other countries to cope with playing youngsters... In this country, we expect to develop players but also win at the same time, which is part of our problem and also pretty much impossible to do... We just can't take defeats while developing young players in this country.
What about Ollie Lawrence?! He had one dodgy game coming back from injury and suddenly no one rates him. He has the potential to be an absolutely class player and has been tearing it up for Bath. Last years six nations he was brilliant as well. He definitely has a big future with England and is only 24!
The background music is distracting and adds nothing
No mention of George Furbank - excellent utility back to take over from Eliot Daly. Also, honourable mention for Lennox Anwanyu at 12 - great in the U20s a while back, and now coming to fore with exit of Esterhuizen at Quins...
Great content as always mate! Although I wasn’t a fan of having music in the background
Lol don't worry, music Just a one off for this 'alternative future'
I think Mike Catt has already said he's leaving Ireland and returning to England (to live, not necessarily the England team)
George Ford is also light in defence. So is Marcus Smith. Finn Smith may be the best choice. Young and can improve.
Looking for a whole sale changes to personel is not what is required, patience and positivity from us, the fans is required.
Borthwick is clearly trying to overhaul how england play, Southafrican defence and Ireland attack (bring back the Cat!), the defence first and foremost, which has looked great in patches, with us marching the opposition back 20-30 meters and forcing a kick or turn over, the player's look fitter aswell which was a huge issue in the last sixnations. However there are disconnects players stepping in leading to soft trys, this is expected as it is exactly what happend to Southafrica when Felix jones took over the job.
Borthwick built a team on short notice to compete at the world cup this was a success, he now needs to develop the systems for the next 6-8 years, in summery the process is going to take atleast a season to develop not three games.
I really hope we see Zach Mercer given another chance in an England shirt.
A few missing names here. Roebuck, Hassell-Collins, Furbank, Rapava-Ruskin, Rodd, Raffi Quirke, and Alex Coles to name but seven. I like your thinking, though, and really hope you are right about Borthwick's masterplan. I remain to be convinced, though.
Nothing matters more than winning! The RFU are at the core of English Rugby problems. The players know this.
3 and 12 are obviously the big missing pieces but I would love England to commit to having a ball playing 15. They have had the players for it with Goode, Malins and tried Smith (and even Cipriani) briefly but without adapting the game to suit them.
Seeing someone like Reece Walsh in the NRL being almost unplayable when he goes to the line with pace and the ability to find a gap or a pass, you wonder why any team would settle for someone who is just 'pretty reliable under the high ball'.
Love the optimism, when you put it like that, I love it. But I just can’t see us changing attacking style under SB
Hodge, Radwan all we need is 2 centres who can give and take a pass over 10 m and put the quick men in space. We need a ball carrying hooker - JG used to be outstanding in the loose - no longer. What has Itoje done to keep being an automatic selection. We need a rapid ball handling back row - Underhill is not the future.
Was at a freezing cold York yesterday to watch the open training session. It was a filthy day, and I know the intensity wouldn’t have been the same as a closed door session, but seeing them training wasn’t a terribly optimistic experience.
The handling errors were still on show, Genge, Ford and Furbank being the worst offenders. There didn’t seem to be much innovation in attack and Borthwick was only noticeable because he wasn’t wearing a hat in the cold! (Wrigglesworth was the most prominent coach.)
The only players who stood out were Steward, Chessum, Earl, Care, Cunningham-South and Mitchell, who was doing his own routines.
If there is a master plan, it’s being kept well disguised at the moment.
Very positive Rich. I like your thinking. However, the RFU showed a lack of ambition in appointing Borthwick. He’s a solid coach. An excellent forwards coach, but one premiership playing a limited game plan doesn’t qualify him
for international level for me.
I like the dream!! It's tough being an England supporter right now....we have to get used to living with hope, maybe one day we shall see some results...we have the players!! I'd like to see Evans as attack coach or Mike Catt (Isn't his contract up for renewal this year?) I could argue about a couple of your selections but we will always have our own personal preferences!! Nice video ...thanks
I genuinely believe Mike Catt leaving Ireland after the 6 Nations will see him come over to us soon. We have loads of good players its just getting the right ones in the right places.
Love this big thinking 👏🏾👏🏾 spot on. We need revolution
Before WC daly was 45 th Prem scorer, Murley 1st, guest who went to WC, Daly is 100th Prem scorer at present, guess who’s SB chooses again on the wing, utter madness!!!
SB takes one injured 8 (BV) to the WC, Earl has to play at 8 though default, Earl a great flanker is SB 1st choice 8,
Cole, marler, George, care, ford, daly, youngs for ages, Underhill, , England don’t transition and play inform players who have proven their form, to blood in years before the WC to get ready! England select a few token ones! No one else in rugby would play daly on the wing before our great wingers we have, no one would hire wigglesworth as there’re attack coach! England just same as football, choose same faces and don’t progress to where they should be!!
I think we play the wrong brand of rugby in the first team. If the future of England's Fly-halves are M Smith, F Smith and C Atkinson, then that suggests we should be developing a more expansive running rugby style similar to Northampton or Harlequins. There is no point sticking to a game plan that suits only one fly-half G Ford. Otherwise, there will be no seemless link between the players coming through the system and the full international squad. An A Team that plays running rugby and a full international squad that plays kick and chase. We'll be forever looking for the right type of player to turn up to fit the style and like in Eddie's era from 2019 onwards, not find them or hope and pray that the old guard are fit again. Similarly with the scrum. We're not looking for the next Billy V or Courtney, we are looking for a combination that's unique in their own right. That offers a new set of problems for the opposition. Not a copy of France or South Africa or a throwback to a previous England generation. Should that start now, I guess is the question. Can we blood T Pearson, G Pepper, A Barbeary, Cunningham-South all at once. I'm guessing not all. But I would like to see more than Cunningham-South come off the bench, maybe one of them to start. Also an out and out winger on the wing would be nice. Not a utility back. A finisher. I think the time is right for a couple of alterations. O Lawrence at outside centre, where he plays for his club. Faye-Waboso on one wing, Freeman on the other for now, because I think his place is at outside centre and we should stick to that in the not too distant future. G Furbank at fullback, he needs continuity of selection to get the best out of him. Unless obviously it's tipping down and blowing a gale. Then you know who plays. We do need to start developing him into a potential first choice by the way. Similarly with Josh Hodge, the Australian conditions during the next World Cup, possibly might not suit him. Hard pitches tend to suit fast track runners.
From a non-english POV, it's hilarious watching the English hand-wringing and charming optimism of many fans!
Until the RFU hire a coach with a forward-looking and positive ethos, who's not stuck in the Eddie Jones 1990's!
You'll be repeating this same conversation until the whole RFU hierarchy are mummified in aspic!
Great stuff Rich! Send this video to Steve Borthwick. He needs to see it!!
Very interesting piece.
Borthwick has found he had to rebuild the basics and that’s what is slowly taking shape. Lineout better, scrum is serviceable (with Marler/Cole who aren’t the long term answer but will provide a platform for new players outside to have a decent crack) and speed to the ball improving. Rush defence has shown signs of being disruptive when executed without a dogleg and ZA will tell you it takes time to perfect.
They need forward size and physicality to win the collisions and get on the front foot. The video omits Bevan Rodd who has performed well in the scrum v ZA and he has Tumy with him at Sale. They need to find two tight heads they can invest caps in. Asher O-F could be one, maybe Joe Heyes kicks on.
Next up, a giant carrying lock and a large mobile 6(Pearson), an 8 that is an 8 (CCS) with Earl playing 7 could work well. We have plenty of destructive, floor-work 7’s; Earl may be the most constructive attacking option once the runners break the line rather than do most of the first up carrying work himself. Scrum half - JVP is the one they tend to pick when fit, although Mitchell’s kicking has improved and offers a better tempo.
George Ford is only 30 and knows how to win tests (Argentina/Wales the most recent) so worth having in the group. Would like to see more of Fin Smith. Agree the ‘Oli Lawrence not good enough’ talk is desperately premature. Despite his detractors Borthwick has given opportunities to new blood in the back line. By the end of the 6N they need to have taken those opportunities with both hands.
Isn’t mike Catt available after the 6 nations? I thought he hadn’t renewed his contract?
One of the big pluses for me is George Martin. For quite some time now we haven't had a brutish second row that provides a different threat than Itoje. Chessum/Coles are great bench players but Martin is an absolute specimen. Once we have a more balanced back row (Pearson, Earl, CCS maybe?) and a solid front row, that pack will be monstrous. The talent is there in the backs, here's hoping they get game-time this year. At least Borthwick is capable of actually picking and not instantly dropping young players.
That all sounds great. I love the vision. Fingers crossed
Great video but found it hard to concentrate with the random background music
Good idea, and a good video. It is the attacking caching, or lack there of, which has we most worried. I am hoping for Mike Catt, as he's absolutely proven himself at the highest level. Catt & Felix Jones would make a good very good coaching pair under Borthwick. Happy to keep Wigglesworth on as, ostensibly, a slow ball coach. Of all the younger players you listed, I'm hoping to see CC-S in the starting XV against Ireland, and Ojomoh needs to be given a shot sooner rather than later. He has the all-round skill-set at 12, so should be given a good long look. Ojomoh and Lawrence or Freeman would offer a nice, balanced centre pairing for the Summer.
Great video Rich, love your optimism, thanks. I wonder when Borthwick will start to turn the page and pick the younger players? Maybe this summer in New Zealand?
Great video as always. I was surprised to hear Johnny Mays comments about the lack of attacking focus in the England camp. Been saying it for ages but to have it confirmed is disappointing. I genuinely believe it’s the problem with having a forward as a coach. Also the reason we waste so much talent that would be stars for other nations. So many of our players that have a handful of caps would be 50 cappers elsewhere. Cypriani prime example
Here’s something that people may or may not find interesting but may explain the lack lustre game play by england, wales, Australia etc… the best attacking teams in world rugby all have coaches who were not forwards - Andy Farrell (centre) Fabian Galthie (scrum Half) jacques Nienaber (physio) Ian Foster (fly half) Gregor Townsend (fly Half).
Excellent forward thinking
Hate to say it, as much as I love attacking rugby being a Quins fan; Radwan I don’t think can cut it at International level. A brilliant finisher and speedster but I’ve never seen him complete a tackle, Cadan Murley is ready made for international rugby right now. Reliable finishing, solid tackling and a good bulk of muscle.
Great video Rich cheers for the content. Found it a little hard to focus on what you were saying at times because of the music. Liked the idea though. 🏉
Love the selections. Ojomoh, hodge but haven’t seen Radwan anywhere near England, think he needs to be at a bigger club.
Think getting Evans would be amazing, the attack looked better with him incharge
It was announced before Christmas that Catt was having his Ireland role after the SA tour, so I wouldn't rule him out, though I'm sure he'll be in high demand
I don't see the progression under Borthwick and whats been alarming for quite some time is our depleting scrum. We can't seem to compete against any of the top sides. They get give away multiple penalties every single game and teams have worked out this weakness.
I think Rus Tuima has to feature in this conversation. Surprised he wasn't in your thinking
Yes good shout Rich. But a little too much like forward thinking on Borther's part. When does a hybrid contract beçome a complete flouting if the current rules.
Squidge Rugby did an interesting video on what England are trying to achieve under Borthwick. It was a lot more positive than 99% of the commentary online.
music too loud
It’s early yet. The wc play was dire. On the other side of the draw they would have been found out. But got to say they have at least tried to be expansive. Too many losses and they may revert to kick and chase ad infinitum but at least there has been an effort. Hopefully it lasts.
We need props and a nine, but other than that I’d be playing this now (with Arundel in)
4. Itoje
5. Martin
6. Pearson
7. C-South
8. Earl
9.
10. Marcus S
11. Arundel
12. Ojomoh
13. Lawrence
14. F-W
15. Hodge
16. George
17.
18.
19. Chessum
20. Underhill
21.
22. F Smith
23. Steward
The change you imagine is going to be much more gradual. If Borthwick is really like Jones, there’s a problem as Eddie was awful for selecting players for one or two internationals then never giving them a run in position. An example of this was bringing back Lawrence when he has had no game time. The result, the man coughed the ball up and couldn’t coordinate with Furbank and Slade. I would have kept the centre pairing the same for the Scotland game if only to allow a centre pairing to develop together.
If what you say is true, that attack is being given much less time than other parts of the game, that too is a big worry. England can’t convert inside the 20 at the moment. Agreed that Wigglesworth is not the answer here.
Last point, I don’t get what people see in Bearberry. Yes he can carry, but nothing much else. He was a raw talent but just seems a bit of a one trick pony. Mercer on the other hand is the real thing. He should get a run of 5 or 6 games to prove he can hack the International scene.
Lose the music - too distracting
I like your thoughts. Brave selections and it's for the future. Sadly I think it will take an extraordinary brave England coach to do that. There is simply too much pressure and scrutiny with this job for someone to do that. You need a bit of a maverick like Galthie to do something like this. Borthwick simply is too steady too conservative to try this, may be against USA or Canada but not against a proper team
Success for any organisation starts at the top
Where can we find some English coaches who could lead England to success?
How about a trio of Andy Farrell, Mike Catt and Shaun Edwards
Is there any reason why they can’t work with the RFU to bring success?
(Keep your list to under 10 points per coach please!)
I just don’t see the skill sets of the current head or attack coaches as being up to the job that is before them
Yes Nick Evans could be the attack coach but Quins work on a managed chaos system which I am not sure sits well at international level where winning is more important than style
Anyway he’s too valuable at Quins so leave him alone!
On the player front I would include Cadan Murley particularly after his performance in the A’s
(Did I mention my Quins bias?)
I appreciate the optimistic view. The question is, does Steve Borthwick take a risk with blooding raw untested talent for the summer tour to Japan and New Zealand? It could end up being a Tour from Hell just like in 98, but it could sort out the genuine prospects
Mike Catt contract is ending with Ireland and he’s announced he’s leaving already. But hasn’t said where he’s going…
What you present has truth in it, the talent is available, Borthwick has a track record of success and is not afraid to make big calls. We, the punters, need to be a bit more patient. Evolution will be more effective than revolution or at a minimum a revolving door of 1 cap players.
Mike Catt is leaving the Irish setup in July i think. He will be available.
Nice squad I like it a lot. However it will be nowhere near Borthwicks squad for 2027 assuming he survives. Expect to still see Ford and Farrell involved. Maybe even Daly. Steward will be the mainstay 15. Expect to see slow wingers who can catch the ball well remain priority for out wide.
A lot hinges on Lawrence to add the power in the centres. Remains to be seen if the others have world class physicality in defence.
As for phasing out Jack Willis and Tom Curry...I think they would make most other international teams. Its just whether their bodies allow.
Wise choices throughout Rich.
Such a shame we didn't get Scott Robertson, that England team would have been a joy to watch, but we must look to Andy Farrell long term.
Unless Evans did come back, and stepped in when we have had enough of Borthwick. Again, that would be a joy to watch if he was allowed to instigate his style, but he'd need to get them playing for better as Attack Coach first!
Anyanwu and Hartley are likely to get a lot more game time next season. It looks like options at 12 are starting to develop.
When you say these things you give me hope
I would add Ruis Tuima, he looks great at second row
I think you've got a bang on the head.
Interesting for sure! Very harsh on Tom Curry though. He’s one of our very few players who is genuinely touching world class level.
Thought you was joking about the music lol
junior kpoku will be starting next world cup no doubt. Absolute man mountain getting game time for racing at only 18. Expect henry pollock to be amongst the squad too and feel zach mercer's time will finally come - he's too good to not be playing internationally. Kepu tuipolotou will also likely be in the squad whether starting or sub hooker. Seriously dynamic beast of a hooker part of strong rugby family
Great analysis but please cut out the music. Thanks.
Love your analysis as always, but please turn off music 😊
Noted!
Whatever your prescription is, I want some!
...I need to reduce my amounts
As far as I know, Mike Catt is due leave Ireland after their summer tour this year. Do you think he'd join England?
Isn't catt leaving Ireland in July
The current England team play like they believe they have already done enough and their mere presence is a guarantee of a win. Borthwick should have immediately challenged the status quo, the cliques, keeping only those who have convinced themselves they have not reached their full Rugby potential (fantasy meets reality). Rugby is designed to expose weakness.
It’s clear to me Borthwick has a plan, as he contracted the new defence coach before the semis of the WC. Any plan though, can come off the rails! I’m also sure he is fully aware that England cannot wait for years but have to win now, and why shouldn’t they? Bringing in a bunch of youngsters would be foolish and they would definitely lose every match - there has to be a gradual transition - he must resist all the clamouring from fans and media - it didn’t work with Dombrandt and Simmonds and I reckon Zach Mercer would not work at 8 either. For me, I now think Marcus Smith is not a good enough tactical kicker and is also weak point in defence to be the no1 fly-half. I prefer sticking with Ford and Fin Smith for the time being (I’ve had enough of Farrell). I would also like to see the back of Daly, but can see Borthwick has him at the centre of his plans in the short term. It looks like Borthwick will have a style of play (you could see it in the Scotland game) and will try to find the right players for it - England might well get smashed by Ireland, and if they do Borthwick will be under huge pressure. Hopefully they will play better than last week. I think in any case he should be given until the end of the next WC and that would be a good time to look at sticking with him or changing. Sometimes a four-year cycle is enough.
Love it, sadly its a brave Gatland style approach akin to Wales this six nations... sadly not a Borethwick one and England rugby seems destined for the dark ages with generational talents squandered and we look on in envy. Maybe just maybe it happens though otherwise our ceiling is third/fourth in 6 nations going forward rather than take risks and push on. Fingers crossed!
Historically Props rarely never become their best until late twenties early 30’s.
To be honest i did think he'll see another world cup, I'll be hoping he's gone, special if we ship 50 points against Ireland at home and get battered by the France,just beating Wales and Italy just isn't good enough, don't care what anyone says.we are an awful mess on the field.
And the problem is, it’s the same narrative we’ve been fed for the last 4 years so it’s hard to feel too excited. We can’t Wait for the evolution, ignore the results for an eternity; especially while everyone else wants to win EVERY game. We should be wanting to do that AND build for the future but the coaching is so single minded. If the coaching team is a camera lens, they are zoomed all the way out to Fisheye, where they’re focusing on the whole rugby landscape. So when some mistakes need close focus (100mm) they will miss it completely; they have to find that compromise in the middle
That’s what France did so well before 2023.
Eddie Jones essentially said the same during his tenure in England. And we all know how that turned out.
This gets me excited
Think you've missed out young Fasogbon at 3. A O-F to 1. Raffi Quirk at 9.
Wiggleworth is not an attack coach, but he is a good developing coach. He should move to skills coach and someone like Sam Vesty or Mike Catt should be brought in. Another unpopular opinion but I think Jamie George shouldn’t be captain, it should be Maro Itoje. I reckon Dan Cole will end up being the scrum coach after he retires
Itoje has been a great player for England. Will he really remain an automatic choice in 3 years time?
It was a bit distracting with the music, maybe lower it a bit.
Love the thinking hope the RFU and SB watch and take note. England need a drastic change in coaching, attitude and performance to compete with SA, NZ, Ireland and France. Forget Scotland they will never win a World Cup or Grand Slam.
Love the positivity. Really like the group of players - I’d add Quirke. But if this is how Borthwick is thinking then I’m a Dutchman. He simply doesn’t have the mental capacity.
Err, Mike Catt is leaving his Ireland role in July. I would’ve thought you knew that? Sam Vesty would get my vote.
England play 8 tests by the end of the Autumn series.Currently if we continue as we are we might beat Japan but that is it. Wigglesworth should be replaced now and if Borthwick continues in the same stubborn manner he won't be England coach for next 6 nations yet alone the World cup.
I agree with you but we need to change now Wales have taken a very bold move young players need game time the Ateam is full of talent give them go nothing to lose
Mike Catt is actually leaving Ireland after this year’s summer tour. Hmmmmmm
Love your stuff man but wtf is this music?
Thought Mike Catt was leaving Ireland this summer .
I think Mike Catt is leaving Ireland after the summer tour.
Nothing develops until you start winning games. We haven't won more than 2 Six Nations games since 2020, and how many players have come in since then and become established first teamers? Steward maybe, but he's drop-able as we've seen. Chessum maybe, but only because of a lack of other options. And Mitchell, but only very recently.
Wish it were the plan. It’s a good one. ☝️
Bevan Rodd seems to be forgotten. Charlie Bracken?
If only this was the case , but I have my doubts .
Your plan sounds realistic, but will the RFU be on the same page for the next 3 years, especially if results don't go their way.
Sorry mate not a huge fan of the background music
Fair enough, just a one off
Why this there dance music playing!?!??
We have the talent in the prem
Mike Catt is leaving Ireland in July I reckon England do get him as attack coach
No Radwan in the list? maybe 14 could be Radwan/Freeman?
I wish you were running the team
I'm afraid i dont think it's Borthwicks plan. His selection is hopeless and his players aren't allowed to play as they are over coached. He's following a similar plan to Eddie and strangely enough getting same results!!
Your channel sounds like a disco now. I watched the coaches on the Netflix 6 nations show and thought Farrell and Borthwick would be 2 that I would like playing for. I thought the Italian coaches were dreadful - swearing, angry and awful. Steve seemed pretty good