Rarely, if ever, I watch a video for the second time to better understand the facts. With every of your videos, Michael, it’s a case that I have to watch it more than twice. Your approach is as scientific as it can be, given the scarcity of evidence. Your ability to deduce it from small and sometimes trivial pieces of information is what draws my attention to your videos. I’d call it high altitude forensics, and you - the Everest detective. :) I can’t wait when you complete your mission of telling the story of 1996 Everest disaster and write the ultimate authoritative book on the subject to finally put Krakauer’s disinformation piece to rest and out of circulation.
I’m just so impressed with the quality of everything you put out. You do a ton of digging and always bring something interesting to the table from a fresh perspective. Even folks who disagree with you on certain points (which includes myself on very rare occasions.. but not here) can’t deny that your research and discovery are impeccable. Thanks for putting in the legwork to bring this stuff to the light of day. You are very good at what you do.
Thank you for putting some sense, with your research, into what most surely happen. I feel I'm stuck in a never ending loop of not understanding regarding the tragedy of -96. So many died for more or less "no reason". I'm greatly looking forward to the next video. 😺
The more I hear your analysis the more it all makes sense. Thank You Mr Tracy! The whole incident is a not surprising study of somewhat nefarious human nature. With Krakauer being the tip of that nefarious spear.
This is fascinating and casts a LOT more light on what really happened and why. Finally after all these years I understand much better. The amount of detail-obsessive work is considerable that it must take to figure all this out from disparate sources, not all of which are consistent, and statements of (supposed) fact that you can't know for sure whether they're factual or not until otherwise corroborated. I find myself wanting to make a big spreadsheet of exactly who arrived and departed from many different points (camp, Balcony, S. Summit, etc.) at exactly what time (or with different alternate possible times noted and source cited). Some animation geek could then make a video with labeled dots proceeding. What fun that would be to see! The point about the Taiwanese suddenly increasing their rate of ascent after leaving S. Summit is very telling. Kinda like pro athletes whose strength performance suddenly zooms up, and they're later found to have been doping. Thanks for all the work these take.
What is note-worthy about Andy Harris is the fact that Lene Gammelgaard noticed on separate occasions during the ascent that he wasn't feeling very well. First time if I remember correctly on the South Summit actually and the second time on the summit itself. Thank you for this video Michael, great to see how everything is starting to add up. Before your series on 1996 disaster I always had trouble piecing a coherent story from publicly available sources and rope fixing was so vague from few sources who actually presented it as an issue, that it was hard to believe as a cause.
Fascinating and insightful video as always! I'm looking forward to part 2 of this. I remember reading Krakauer's description of Harris insisting the bottles were empty, and not questioning his assertion that Harris had been wrong... but that always came with a slight background confusion. The lack of oxygen continued to be a problem for the rest of the descent, and later rescue attempts; if there had really been a bunch of overlooked full bottles at south summit... why didn't they appear in the narrative again later? Krakauer's narrative asserts that Harris was wrong about the bottles being empty, but then basically continues on from that point as if the bottles really *were* empty, despite claiming that they were full. But Krakauer is the king of the handwave.
This is a really excellent analysis with ironclad reasoning. For Krakauer, I suppose the missing oxygen bottle issue would not be a very dramatic narrative to base a magazine column and a book on--not as dramatic as a wealthy elitist woman causing all of the problems. You are generous in asserting that Krakauer did not understand the missing oxygen bottle issue; perhaps he understood it very well but also understood that the "wealthy elitist woman" narrative, though libelous and wrong, would sell more books.
Ultimately, we cannot know what Krakauer's true motivations were. However, his story dishonored the memory of Andy Harris -- who did not deserve it in any way. Not just the "Andy turned my oxygen up by mistake" but the whole "Andy was crazy and saying the bottles were empty" when Krakauer himself got a nearly empty bottle. Harris was trying to save people -- but no one listened because they didn't want to hear the truth that their oxygen was gone and it was not coming back. In hindsight, the one final thing that could have saved everyone's life on Adventure Consultants would have been if they listened to Andy Harris at 3PM when he told them the oxygen was gone. A large portion was indeed gone and Harris was not crazy.
Has zero to do dramatic narrative. JK and Outside desired to a story on how these not at all trained mountaineers were not a good thing. If was the oxygen, well, that is the fault of the experts, right, and so there goes the narrative. MT writes that he can't know, neither can I to a certainty, but if human A was told that human B was going to report him to the authorities...and then shortly thereafter human B is found dead from something other than natural causes and human A had the means and opportunity, there's the motive. Was a trial lawyer for more years than I care to remember and circumstantial evidence has, is and will continue to provide more justification for decision(s) than direct evidence, and it's not even close.
This is an absolutely fascinating video. I wish there was some way to further explore/investigate the-Taiwanese-may-have-stolen-the-O2 angle. That possibility would never have occurred to me in my wildest dreams.
@MT ...and again, facts presented with your opinion, so that we can see what your opinions are based on. Love that. One question: there is an ever going roasting championship in the online space regarding Anatoli guiding without Os - yet all critique avoids mentioning, let alone discussing Anatoli's reasoning that he found the potential of rebound effect when running out of Os more dangerous than guiding without Os altogether. Would you consider breaking this topic down? I would love to finally hear some fact based reasoning about this.
Yes, agreed. I’m no expert but I find his reasoning sound. He knew his body and his limits. To some others it almost looks like oxygen gave them the illusion of invulnerability, whereas Anatoli was very conscious and very careful in managing his energy.
This is getting good - the accumulation of detail, the inexorable logic… Reminiscent of John W. Berresford’s podcast on the Hiss-Chambers Espionage Case “A Pumpkin Patch, a Typewriter, and Richard Nixon.”
Wow. Thanks s😊 lots . Just started watching one of your Vids about the array of Titanic esque little things & choice pertaining to 1996 haunting Everest tragedy . Iam hearing facts ,opinions ( backed up by logical evidential facts ) , that Ive never come across before ; especially pertaining to mysterious disappearance oxygen bottles; bottles that shouls have been full , but eithe empty or marked as full but were left only partially full .. which of course were not enough . Thanks . Will be subscribing . 🦄💜
Hi Michael, I've recently found your channel and really enjoying the videos. Could I ask your thoghts on why the ill fated expeditions had no Sherpa guides?
Finally an unbiased account, not doing mental gymnastics to make that day the fault of Anstoli and Sandy. I wish others who cover this topic were as deferential in their commentary.
As the most of your viewers I like your detailed and accurate descriptions of 1996 Everest expedition. What I am very interested to see would be accurate timing based on your research when every person had got to the summit and what time they started their descend. In most sources I could see that Boukreev ascended around 1 pm and 5-10 minutes later Jon Krakauer. But it would be good to know about other people times and when Boukreev started his descend from the summit. Maybe you have this timing in your different videos but it would be helpful to see it in one place. Thank you in advance.
@michaeltracy2356 have really been enjoying your 1996 series... 1996 was the real beginning of my "Armchair Mountaineer" life :). Have devoured pretty much every related book over the past 25+ years several times over and it's really suprising the different versions/stories that come from the different teams. Obviously the JK/AB conflicts, and the personal accounts from Groom, Kasischke, and Gammalgaardnd. But the Vernon vs Dowd/Woodall storyline was very interesting I thought as well. So I am starting to get more into the Mallory & Irvine history, partly due to your series. Are there any books I should avoid on the subject due to blatant inaccuracies or other issues?
Golden words: judge motivation by deeds rather than words. The other bleedingly obvious fact: only Scott Fischer is lost from MM, while AC lost 4. That alone should have made me doubt the blame it on Sandy theory back then. My bad. 😞
I have never been a fan of JK and your information just confirms the feeling I’ve had that there is something off about him. I’ve seen him speak a couple times and he’s always smiles when he speaks of these horrible tragedies cracking jokes etc, it’s creepy.
MT, don't go all JK on us. Meaning, if Rob changed the time, how was that communicated? No matter, since as you know, as JK relates but then never returns to, if Doug had stepped out of line, told Lou K that he was going back to camp, then Rob convinced him to resume his summit attempt, there's still the Doug problem, as it were. That event, by the way, is THE thing that explains rather well why Rob would not leave Doug alone on Everest even after was suggested to him to do so. Unlike some others, to his credit, at least Rob owned his prior act(s). Lastly, I've said this before, though not sure about on your vblog, but JK is at fault simply for being there. So is Outside, by the way. For the irony, well, do you not think that even JK came to know that, and so Sandy, doing what he was doing, became the perfect villain. He indicted himself by indicting her (she too was to blame for the very same reason as him). She was short-roped, as in, something was done for her because she was a special client? JK too was a special client. Take it as given that neither Rob nor Scott wanted a season with no summit. What the feds and some others would simply include in the category of human factors. By the way, you going to have a vid on JK's second regret? He says he has two, but only mentions Andy Harris. But his subconscious gives it away. In line with your Groom vid, JK's original ending, before the later added postscript: Beidleman paused. “But I can’t help thinking about Yasuko,” he said when he resumed, his voice hushed. “She was so little. I can still feel her fingers sliding across my biceps, and then letting go. I never even turned to look back.” What he himself had already done, as in, JK too can't help thinking about Yasuko and so she gets his last lines.
It was communicated to Michael Groom on South Summit by radio -- according to Groom. No new time was stated -- it was just -- let's go to the summit. It was later confirmed by Hall in person to Groom on South Summit -- again, just a "let's go" communication. No real mystery about it.
@@michaeltracy2356 Thanks. Do not have or have access to Groom's book. Was aware from ITA that there was, for Groom, at least one occasion with a radio problem. Now about the Doug Hansen problem? Since Rob convincing him to continue with/resume his summit attempt not only explains why Rob never abandoned him, but along the way, well, what was Rob going to do? Hits 3 PM and Rob looks down Everest and there's Doug...given his prior encouragement what he can say to have Doug turn around? Doug was going to do that earlier. Cannot fathom how an Everest replete with oxygen canisters solves that problem (even if Doug was on max flow the entire time). Goes back to the initial comment that we both replied to. As in, what with JK and Sandy being there neither Rob nor Scott wanted a no summit season. Thinking that the "eat his lunch" explains why a Rob Hall who said, know your body, could not accept Doug knowing his.
Why didn't, or couldn't, the Adventure Consultants team purchase the extra oxygen from Mountain Madness, since they (MM) already ordered it and had it for Krakauer? If the extra oxygen was there for Krakauer in the possession of Mountain Madness, couldn't the Adventure Consultants team make a side deal and pay the money to MM so that they could have the bottles for Krakauer? Or write up a quick contract at base camp, as a promise to pay for the oxygen later.
Does anyone recall the rumours going around about sketchy Russian/former Soviet oxygen supplies in connection to this incident? (Potentially on several expeditions in this era)
Seems to me, Doug Hanson was going to be a main character for Outsider Mag's article by Krakauer, had everything gone to plan ~ which quickly devolved as the "1pm turn around time" went ignored, as did Hanson trying to descend w/o summiting b/c he felt ill. An everyman $tory would've played well too.
This first time on everest for both krak and harris. Both had never been at high altitude. Should have been 4 extra bottles at south summit from clients who turned around. Never thought about Taiwan team stealing oxygen, has anyone asked sherpas?
I know i don't know anything about climbing but why dosen't everyone take there own air bottles to keep track of them ? And why not take bigger bottles? Isn't keeping track of your own air bottles easier that have someone else taking care of them?
They are extremely heavy. And once a canister is used, you are left carrying it and it's useless. So the solution is to get the sherpas to carry 4 each and leave a stash or cache at different stages so the you can leave a half empty or fully empty canister behind and exchange it for a full one. This system works perfectly until someone else comes along and takes the oxygen Stash, for whatever reason. As per usual. The sherpas do the heavy lifting of carrying multiple bottles up amd down.
I used to be almost certain that Mr Thin Air’s mind wasn’t clear. I thought he was not thinking properly and unable to racialized that those were indeed full Oxigen battles. And since he was not thinking clearly he toasted aside full battles causing a problem for everyone. But this makes more sense.
Start with something simple. Here is your homework assignment: How many oxygen bottles did the Taiwanese team use after 12PM on May 10, 1996? Please do not post until you have answered that rather simple question.
In his defense, I can’t imagine trying to remember every thing that happened during such a chaotic and desperate incident. Am reading “Into Thin Air” right now. I see it more as a POV more than anything. The fact that Krakauer could remember anything is amazing.
Why would someone who could not remember anything write a book about it? And then insist he got everything correct and that everyone else was mistaken. As I indicate in many of these videos, there are photographs which show what happened that day. It is amazing that Krakauer looked at the photographs and then wrote in his book the exact opposite of what was in the photo. It is amazing that in writing his book, he makes obvious mistakes -- such as placing himself at two different places on the mountain at the same time. More amazing that people keep giving him a pass for blatant errors that always error on the side of the agenda he is pushing.
Who would? In addition to his Everest '96 fiction, JK went with Alexander Supertramp as some New Age Back To Nature hero and never mind that the blithering idiot did not have a map with marked escape routes in case the river ran high.
Ok, this has really got me thinking, not so much as who stole the oxygen but how much was there actually available to steal? Since Anatoli wasn't using O2 and gave his initial ascent bottle to Neil, there ought to have been two more O2 bottles that were brought up for him. In terms of how much was available for the Mountain Madness team, there could also have been the O2 for Peter Schoening and Dale Kruse, (or had they already used them up in sleeping or did the Sherpa not have to carry them up to the caches once they were scratched from the ascent list?) Likewise with three Adventure Consultant clients turning round , that's another six available for Rob Hall's team, as you say. And yet, those six were not there? IFF (mathematical use there ) the Taiwanese took O2 from South Summit on the way up, how much would they have taken? One bottle for each of them is 3, would they have taken more and lugged spare bottles with them up to the summit? Since the Mountain madness debrief focused a little on where was the oxygen, I am puzzled over how they too lost full O2 bottles, because by the time Neil and the clients came down for theirs, the Taiwanese were still up above them? So with six potential extra bottles for Adventure Consultants not there and at least two for Mountain Madness not there, and only Makulu and two of his Sherpa to be pointed at, there's still a mystery of at least three and possibly five bottles not where they ought to have been. How much weight can a Gorak lift? BTW I got "The Climb" and am going through it, I have to say there's a lot more of interest in that debrief, not only what was said, but a couple of instances where Lene clashes with Sandy, and Neil reflects on an unpleasant thought that had just occurred to him without actually going into it. Another interesting point in the debrief was why Lene and Klev wandered over to the group instead of dashing for the tents, Klev suggests they didn't have a working headlamp between them. And Martin is immediately worrying about litigation? What was on his mind that made him that jittery? I wish I had read that book a lot sooner. My feelings are I can put a lot more trust in the debrief section than anywhere else in the book, or indeed JK's book, because there is far less of an editorial agenda to it.
I'm sorry, but I have no understanding for risking my own life and that of others to climb a mountain. No amount of money and pride can be worth it. Not to mention the destruction of this monument with corpses and garbage. Is it so important to be able to say: Look, I climbed Everest? The same applies to mountains like K2, Lhotse, Annapurna, etc.
Sorry, but youre just bitter at this point. Rob Hall wanted to have him there, why does it concern you wether this was paid for or not? Its none of your business. It doesnt change the fact Rob Hall nearly killed Weathers. It doesnt make Krakauer responsible for Yasuko. He wasnt a paid guide but had the status of a customer, paying or not.
I to would like to know what he’s bitter about? All of these clips are based on presented evidence. I drank the kool-aid and believed the others at one time but now my eyes are opened to the facts. If you can put together a rebuttal that’s based on presentable facts do it.
I agree. Most of this video is bad mouthing Krakouer. He may have made a bad judgement about leaving the south summit early. But all your time up there you’re dying so I understand his urge to get up and down quickly. But what he and Harris did with their oxygen has nothing to do with what happened next to the others
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” ― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
When someone can't walk and you give them your own oxygen off your back, that is called a rescue. “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” ― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
![ประสบการณ์ จ้าง Developer ที่ผมจะไม่มีวันลืม [ภาค1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bzivN4KDg-k/mqdefault.jpg)
Rarely, if ever, I watch a video for the second time to better understand the facts. With every of your videos, Michael, it’s a case that I have to watch it more than twice. Your approach is as scientific as it can be, given the scarcity of evidence. Your ability to deduce it from small and sometimes trivial pieces of information is what draws my attention to your videos. I’d call it high altitude forensics, and you - the Everest detective. :) I can’t wait when you complete your mission of telling the story of 1996 Everest disaster and write the ultimate authoritative book on the subject to finally put Krakauer’s disinformation piece to rest and out of circulation.
"...vanished into thin air." I saw what you did there Mikey!
😂😂
I’m just so impressed with the quality of everything you put out. You do a ton of digging and always bring something interesting to the table from a fresh perspective. Even folks who disagree with you on certain points (which includes myself on very rare occasions.. but not here) can’t deny that your research and discovery are impeccable. Thanks for putting in the legwork to bring this stuff to the light of day. You are very good at what you do.
Thank you for putting some sense, with your research, into what most surely happen. I feel I'm stuck in a never ending loop of not understanding regarding the tragedy of -96. So many died for more or less "no reason".
I'm greatly looking forward to the next video. 😺
Excellent, excellent, excellent! I love your research and viewpoints!
The more I hear your analysis the more it all makes sense. Thank You Mr Tracy! The whole incident is a not surprising study of somewhat nefarious human nature. With Krakauer being the tip of that nefarious spear.
This is fascinating and casts a LOT more light on what really happened and why. Finally after all these years I understand much better. The amount of detail-obsessive work is considerable that it must take to figure all this out from disparate sources, not all of which are consistent, and statements of (supposed) fact that you can't know for sure whether they're factual or not until otherwise corroborated. I find myself wanting to make a big spreadsheet of exactly who arrived and departed from many different points (camp, Balcony, S. Summit, etc.) at exactly what time (or with different alternate possible times noted and source cited). Some animation geek could then make a video with labeled dots proceeding. What fun that would be to see! The point about the Taiwanese suddenly increasing their rate of ascent after leaving S. Summit is very telling. Kinda like pro athletes whose strength performance suddenly zooms up, and they're later found to have been doping. Thanks for all the work these take.
I had the exact same thought! An animation of dots going up and down the mountain to indicate climbing times in relation to each other
What is note-worthy about Andy Harris is the fact that Lene Gammelgaard noticed on separate occasions during the ascent that he wasn't feeling very well. First time if I remember correctly on the South Summit actually and the second time on the summit itself.
Thank you for this video Michael, great to see how everything is starting to add up. Before your series on 1996 disaster I always had trouble piecing a coherent story from publicly available sources and rope fixing was so vague from few sources who actually presented it as an issue, that it was hard to believe as a cause.
Fascinating and insightful video as always! I'm looking forward to part 2 of this. I remember reading Krakauer's description of Harris insisting the bottles were empty, and not questioning his assertion that Harris had been wrong... but that always came with a slight background confusion. The lack of oxygen continued to be a problem for the rest of the descent, and later rescue attempts; if there had really been a bunch of overlooked full bottles at south summit... why didn't they appear in the narrative again later?
Krakauer's narrative asserts that Harris was wrong about the bottles being empty, but then basically continues on from that point as if the bottles really *were* empty, despite claiming that they were full. But Krakauer is the king of the handwave.
This is the incredible solving of a mystery, that was apparently created by a best-selling book. Amazing. A real life Sherlock Holmes
And suddenly it all makes sense!
The hypothesis of the Taiwanese taking the O2 is a grenade into the liability of why... damn.
Thank you Michael, more good work 🙏🙏
This is a really excellent analysis with ironclad reasoning. For Krakauer, I suppose the missing oxygen bottle issue would not be a very dramatic narrative to base a magazine column and a book on--not as dramatic as a wealthy elitist woman causing all of the problems. You are generous in asserting that Krakauer did not understand the missing oxygen bottle issue; perhaps he understood it very well but also understood that the "wealthy elitist woman" narrative, though libelous and wrong, would sell more books.
Ultimately, we cannot know what Krakauer's true motivations were. However, his story dishonored the memory of Andy Harris -- who did not deserve it in any way. Not just the "Andy turned my oxygen up by mistake" but the whole "Andy was crazy and saying the bottles were empty" when Krakauer himself got a nearly empty bottle.
Harris was trying to save people -- but no one listened because they didn't want to hear the truth that their oxygen was gone and it was not coming back. In hindsight, the one final thing that could have saved everyone's life on Adventure Consultants would have been if they listened to Andy Harris at 3PM when he told them the oxygen was gone. A large portion was indeed gone and Harris was not crazy.
Has zero to do dramatic narrative. JK and Outside desired to a story on how these not at all trained mountaineers were not a good thing. If was the oxygen, well, that is the fault of the experts, right, and so there goes the narrative. MT writes that he can't know, neither can I to a certainty, but if human A was told that human B was going to report him to the authorities...and then shortly thereafter human B is found dead from something other than natural causes and human A had the means and opportunity, there's the motive. Was a trial lawyer for more years than I care to remember and circumstantial evidence has, is and will continue to provide more justification for decision(s) than direct evidence, and it's not even close.
This is an absolutely fascinating video. I wish there was some way to further explore/investigate the-Taiwanese-may-have-stolen-the-O2 angle. That possibility would never have occurred to me in my wildest dreams.
@MT ...and again, facts presented with your opinion, so that we can see what your opinions are based on. Love that. One question: there is an ever going roasting championship in the online space regarding Anatoli guiding without Os - yet all critique avoids mentioning, let alone discussing Anatoli's reasoning that he found the potential of rebound effect when running out of Os more dangerous than guiding without Os altogether. Would you consider breaking this topic down? I would love to finally hear some fact based reasoning about this.
Yes, agreed.
I’m no expert but I find his reasoning sound. He knew his body and his limits. To some others it almost looks like oxygen gave them the illusion of invulnerability, whereas Anatoli was very conscious and very careful in managing his energy.
go off king
This is getting good - the accumulation of detail, the inexorable logic…
Reminiscent of John W. Berresford’s podcast on the Hiss-Chambers Espionage Case “A Pumpkin Patch, a Typewriter, and Richard Nixon.”
Woo-hooo. Always a pleasure to receive this notice.
Totally agree
The yeti with the oxygen mask is where I lost it lmao
Anger about people climbing faster than you has no place up there. Emotionless mountaineering 💪
But, but, how do we blame Sandy Pittman for the missing bottles? :)
Keep up the logical analysis Mr Tracy.
Boukreev took them!
Every time I climb even the most gentle slope, I proudly proclaim that I am climbing the zig zag route.
"Into thin air" is a fine work....................of fiction.
Wow. Thanks s😊 lots . Just started watching one of your Vids about the array of Titanic esque little things & choice pertaining to 1996 haunting Everest tragedy . Iam hearing facts ,opinions ( backed up by logical evidential facts ) , that Ive never come across before ; especially pertaining to mysterious disappearance oxygen bottles; bottles that shouls have been full , but eithe empty or marked as full but were left only partially full .. which of course were not enough . Thanks . Will be subscribing . 🦄💜
Hi Michael, I've recently found your channel and really enjoying the videos. Could I ask your thoghts on why the ill fated expeditions had no Sherpa guides?
Because Krak lied and then made $$ off the story, the truth may never be believed, sad story
Finally an unbiased account, not doing mental gymnastics to make that day the fault of Anstoli and Sandy. I wish others who cover this topic were as deferential in their commentary.
Perhaps its just the way he writes but, given that his place on the climb was 'free', Krakauer sure comes across as entitled and egotistical.
2:09 Krakauer was there to make money, and he did.
Perfect timing, I was just sitting down to do some rote work I needed to keep interesting with a video/podcast.
As the most of your viewers I like your detailed and accurate descriptions of 1996 Everest expedition. What I am very interested to see would be accurate timing based on your research when every person had got to the summit and what time they started their descend. In most sources I could see that Boukreev ascended around 1 pm and 5-10 minutes later Jon Krakauer. But it would be good to know about other people times and when Boukreev started his descend from the summit. Maybe you have this timing in your different videos but it would be helpful to see it in one place. Thank you in advance.
@michaeltracy2356 have really been enjoying your 1996 series... 1996 was the real beginning of my "Armchair Mountaineer" life :). Have devoured pretty much every related book over the past 25+ years several times over and it's really suprising the different versions/stories that come from the different teams. Obviously the JK/AB conflicts, and the personal accounts from Groom, Kasischke, and Gammalgaardnd. But the Vernon vs Dowd/Woodall storyline was very interesting I thought as well.
So I am starting to get more into the Mallory & Irvine history, partly due to your series. Are there any books I should avoid on the subject due to blatant inaccuracies or other issues?
"Into thin air!." Whole new meaning...
"A large portion of their oxygen cache had vanished...into thin air" 😂
I have the actual Down suit that Michael Groom wore on this exact expedition in 96.
I'm on vacation and this tops that!
Same here 🎉
I also want to be at the Summit!
Wouldnt taking someones full o2 bottles and replacing them with empties, and then marking them as full, be murder? Or at the very least attempted..?
Why would anyone do something like that, that's psychopathic
And I have never before heard this theory that lot of them actually possibly died because of the stolen oxygen.
Golden words: judge motivation by deeds rather than words.
The other bleedingly obvious fact: only Scott Fischer is lost from MM, while AC lost 4. That alone should have made me doubt the blame it on Sandy theory back then. My bad. 😞
I have never been a fan of JK and your information just confirms the feeling I’ve had that there is something off about him. I’ve seen him speak a couple times and he’s always smiles when he speaks of these horrible tragedies cracking jokes etc, it’s creepy.
MT, don't go all JK on us. Meaning, if Rob changed the time, how was that communicated? No matter, since as you know, as JK relates but then never returns to, if Doug had stepped out of line, told Lou K that he was going back to camp, then Rob convinced him to resume his summit attempt, there's still the Doug problem, as it were. That event, by the way, is THE thing that explains rather well why Rob would not leave Doug alone on Everest even after was suggested to him to do so. Unlike some others, to his credit, at least Rob owned his prior act(s). Lastly, I've said this before, though not sure about on your vblog, but JK is at fault simply for being there. So is Outside, by the way. For the irony, well, do you not think that even JK came to know that, and so Sandy, doing what he was doing, became the perfect villain. He indicted himself by indicting her (she too was to blame for the very same reason as him). She was short-roped, as in, something was done for her because she was a special client? JK too was a special client. Take it as given that neither Rob nor Scott wanted a season with no summit. What the feds and some others would simply include in the category of human factors.
By the way, you going to have a vid on JK's second regret? He says he has two, but only mentions Andy Harris. But his subconscious gives it away. In line with your Groom vid, JK's original ending, before the later added postscript:
Beidleman paused. “But I can’t help thinking about Yasuko,” he said
when he resumed, his voice hushed. “She was so little. I can still feel
her fingers sliding across my biceps, and then letting go. I never even
turned to look back.”
What he himself had already done, as in, JK too can't help thinking about Yasuko and so she gets his last lines.
It was communicated to Michael Groom on South Summit by radio -- according to Groom. No new time was stated -- it was just -- let's go to the summit. It was later confirmed by Hall in person to Groom on South Summit -- again, just a "let's go" communication. No real mystery about it.
@@michaeltracy2356 Thanks. Do not have or have access to Groom's book. Was aware from ITA that there was, for Groom, at least one occasion with a radio problem.
Now about the Doug Hansen problem? Since Rob convincing him to continue with/resume his summit attempt not only explains why Rob never abandoned him, but along the way, well, what was Rob going to do? Hits 3 PM and Rob looks down Everest and there's Doug...given his prior encouragement what he can say to have Doug turn around? Doug was going to do that earlier. Cannot fathom how an Everest replete with oxygen canisters solves that problem (even if Doug was on max flow the entire time).
Goes back to the initial comment that we both replied to. As in, what with JK and Sandy being there neither Rob nor Scott wanted a no summit season. Thinking that the "eat his lunch" explains why a Rob Hall who said, know your body, could not accept Doug knowing his.
I wish some of the other big name TH-cam climbers would pay attention to what you’re saying and stop trusting krak.
If Krakauer was reciting Shakespeare. How can any of his memories high on the mountain or decent be reliable?
Why didn't, or couldn't, the Adventure Consultants team purchase the extra oxygen from Mountain Madness, since they (MM) already ordered it and had it for Krakauer?
If the extra oxygen was there for Krakauer in the possession of Mountain Madness, couldn't the Adventure Consultants team make a side deal and pay the money to MM so that they could have the bottles for Krakauer?
Or write up a quick contract at base camp, as a promise to pay for the oxygen later.
Does anyone recall the rumours going around about sketchy Russian/former Soviet oxygen supplies in connection to this incident? (Potentially on several expeditions in this era)
I do...worth considering.
Seems to me, Doug Hanson was going to be a main character for Outsider Mag's article by Krakauer, had everything gone to plan ~ which quickly devolved as the "1pm turn around time" went ignored, as did Hanson trying to descend w/o summiting b/c he felt ill. An everyman $tory would've played well too.
This first time on everest for both krak and harris. Both had never been at high altitude. Should have been 4 extra bottles at south summit from clients who turned around. Never thought about Taiwan team stealing oxygen, has anyone asked sherpas?
I know i don't know anything about climbing but why dosen't everyone take there own air bottles to keep track of them ? And why not take bigger bottles? Isn't keeping track of your own air bottles easier that have someone else taking care of them?
They are extremely heavy. And once a canister is used, you are left carrying it and it's useless. So the solution is to get the sherpas to carry 4 each and leave a stash or cache at different stages so the you can leave a half empty or fully empty canister behind and exchange it for a full one. This system works perfectly until someone else comes along and takes the oxygen Stash, for whatever reason. As per usual. The sherpas do the heavy lifting of carrying multiple bottles up amd down.
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I used to be almost certain that Mr Thin Air’s mind wasn’t clear. I thought he was not thinking properly and unable to racialized that those were indeed full Oxigen battles. And since he was not thinking clearly he toasted aside full battles causing a problem for everyone. But this makes more sense.
Will there be a Krakauer rebuttal ?
Your videos are always great comedy. But at the expense of the people who suffered.
Thanks for your work man not a lot of truth out there theese days
Pulls out gun, “I’m gonna need that second video real soon”. This was great.
Taiwanese team had 2 clients. How many oxygen bottles did they supposedly steal?
Start with something simple. Here is your homework assignment: How many oxygen bottles did the Taiwanese team use after 12PM on May 10, 1996? Please do not post until you have answered that rather simple question.
Why was the Taiwanese group not prosecuted for stealing the oxygen.
In his defense, I can’t imagine trying to remember every thing that happened during such a chaotic and desperate incident. Am reading “Into Thin Air” right now. I see it more as a POV more than anything. The fact that Krakauer could remember anything is amazing.
Why would someone who could not remember anything write a book about it? And then insist he got everything correct and that everyone else was mistaken.
As I indicate in many of these videos, there are photographs which show what happened that day. It is amazing that Krakauer looked at the photographs and then wrote in his book the exact opposite of what was in the photo. It is amazing that in writing his book, he makes obvious mistakes -- such as placing himself at two different places on the mountain at the same time. More amazing that people keep giving him a pass for blatant errors that always error on the side of the agenda he is pushing.
@@michaeltracy2356 agree to disagree. Just the way I interpret it.
2:00 Holy shit this is some scandalous stuff.
I wouldn't at all be surprised if the Thai team did this. Most of them were cowboys, with poor reputations.
Simply put this was a screw-up. I equate it with the disappearance of Amelia Earhart. Poor planning followed by even worse execution.
This guy dose not like krakauer lol
Who would? In addition to his Everest '96 fiction, JK went with Alexander Supertramp as some New Age Back To Nature hero and never mind that the blithering idiot did not have a map with marked escape routes in case the river ran high.
Ok, this has really got me thinking, not so much as who stole the oxygen but how much was there actually available to steal?
Since Anatoli wasn't using O2 and gave his initial ascent bottle to Neil, there ought to have been two more O2 bottles that were brought up for him. In terms of how much was available for the Mountain Madness team, there could also have been the O2 for Peter Schoening and Dale Kruse, (or had they already used them up in sleeping or did the Sherpa not have to carry them up to the caches once they were scratched from the ascent list?)
Likewise with three Adventure Consultant clients turning round , that's another six available for Rob Hall's team, as you say. And yet, those six were not there?
IFF (mathematical use there ) the Taiwanese took O2 from South Summit on the way up, how much would they have taken? One bottle for each of them is 3, would they have taken more and lugged spare bottles with them up to the summit? Since the Mountain madness debrief focused a little on where was the oxygen, I am puzzled over how they too lost full O2 bottles, because by the time Neil and the clients came down for theirs, the Taiwanese were still up above them?
So with six potential extra bottles for Adventure Consultants not there and at least two for Mountain Madness not there, and only Makulu and two of his Sherpa to be pointed at, there's still a mystery of at least three and possibly five bottles not where they ought to have been. How much weight can a Gorak lift?
BTW I got "The Climb" and am going through it, I have to say there's a lot more of interest in that debrief, not only what was said, but a couple of instances where Lene clashes with Sandy, and Neil reflects on an unpleasant thought that had just occurred to him without actually going into it. Another interesting point in the debrief was why Lene and Klev wandered over to the group instead of dashing for the tents, Klev suggests they didn't have a working headlamp between them. And Martin is immediately worrying about litigation? What was on his mind that made him that jittery? I wish I had read that book a lot sooner.
My feelings are I can put a lot more trust in the debrief section than anywhere else in the book, or indeed JK's book, because there is far less of an editorial agenda to it.
I'm sorry, but I have no understanding for risking my own life and that of others to climb a mountain. No amount of money and pride can be worth it. Not to mention the destruction of this monument with corpses and garbage. Is it so important to be able to say: Look, I climbed Everest? The same applies to mountains like K2, Lhotse, Annapurna, etc.
I believe it's a matter of perception of what is important in a person's life. Climbing Everest is a addiction for some.
We're all different.
Sorry, but youre just bitter at this point. Rob Hall wanted to have him there, why does it concern you wether this was paid for or not? Its none of your business. It doesnt change the fact Rob Hall nearly killed Weathers. It doesnt make Krakauer responsible for Yasuko. He wasnt a paid guide but had the status of a customer, paying or not.
What am I bitter about exactly?
i don't think he's bitter, just a contrarian, using somersault lawyer arguments. Still entertaining though!
I to would like to know what he’s bitter about? All of these clips are based on presented evidence. I drank the kool-aid and believed the others at one time but now my eyes are opened to the facts. If you can put together a rebuttal that’s based on presentable facts do it.
I agree. Most of this video is bad mouthing Krakouer. He may have made a bad judgement about leaving the south summit early. But all your time up there you’re dying so I understand his urge to get up and down quickly.
But what he and Harris did with their oxygen has nothing to do with what happened next to the others
he basically accused the Taiwanese of murder in this vid bro. I can see some bug people jacking oxygen on everest
You people have Krakauer derangement syndrome.
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
He didn't rescue Krakauer, he gave him oxy, why you gotta make up fake drama?
When someone can't walk and you give them your own oxygen off your back, that is called a rescue.
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark