Rarely, if ever, I watch a video for the second time to better understand the facts. With every of your videos, Michael, it’s a case that I have to watch it more than twice. Your approach is as scientific as it can be, given the scarcity of evidence. Your ability to deduce it from small and sometimes trivial pieces of information is what draws my attention to your videos. I’d call it high altitude forensics, and you - the Everest detective. :) I can’t wait when you complete your mission of telling the story of 1996 Everest disaster and write the ultimate authoritative book on the subject to finally put Krakauer’s disinformation piece to rest and out of circulation.
I’m just so impressed with the quality of everything you put out. You do a ton of digging and always bring something interesting to the table from a fresh perspective. Even folks who disagree with you on certain points (which includes myself on very rare occasions.. but not here) can’t deny that your research and discovery are impeccable. Thanks for putting in the legwork to bring this stuff to the light of day. You are very good at what you do.
Thank you for putting some sense, with your research, into what most surely happen. I feel I'm stuck in a never ending loop of not understanding regarding the tragedy of -96. So many died for more or less "no reason". I'm greatly looking forward to the next video. 😺
What is note-worthy about Andy Harris is the fact that Lene Gammelgaard noticed on separate occasions during the ascent that he wasn't feeling very well. First time if I remember correctly on the South Summit actually and the second time on the summit itself. Thank you for this video Michael, great to see how everything is starting to add up. Before your series on 1996 disaster I always had trouble piecing a coherent story from publicly available sources and rope fixing was so vague from few sources who actually presented it as an issue, that it was hard to believe as a cause.
Fascinating and insightful video as always! I'm looking forward to part 2 of this. I remember reading Krakauer's description of Harris insisting the bottles were empty, and not questioning his assertion that Harris had been wrong... but that always came with a slight background confusion. The lack of oxygen continued to be a problem for the rest of the descent, and later rescue attempts; if there had really been a bunch of overlooked full bottles at south summit... why didn't they appear in the narrative again later? Krakauer's narrative asserts that Harris was wrong about the bottles being empty, but then basically continues on from that point as if the bottles really *were* empty, despite claiming that they were full. But Krakauer is the king of the handwave.
The more I hear your analysis the more it all makes sense. Thank You Mr Tracy! The whole incident is a not surprising study of somewhat nefarious human nature. With Krakauer being the tip of that nefarious spear.
This is fascinating and casts a LOT more light on what really happened and why. Finally after all these years I understand much better. The amount of detail-obsessive work is considerable that it must take to figure all this out from disparate sources, not all of which are consistent, and statements of (supposed) fact that you can't know for sure whether they're factual or not until otherwise corroborated. I find myself wanting to make a big spreadsheet of exactly who arrived and departed from many different points (camp, Balcony, S. Summit, etc.) at exactly what time (or with different alternate possible times noted and source cited). Some animation geek could then make a video with labeled dots proceeding. What fun that would be to see! The point about the Taiwanese suddenly increasing their rate of ascent after leaving S. Summit is very telling. Kinda like pro athletes whose strength performance suddenly zooms up, and they're later found to have been doping. Thanks for all the work these take.
And it's why I wonder about Bruce Herrod on the South African team later. He was so slow compared to Woodall and O'Dowd. Woodall was at least a control freak.
@MT ...and again, facts presented with your opinion, so that we can see what your opinions are based on. Love that. One question: there is an ever going roasting championship in the online space regarding Anatoli guiding without Os - yet all critique avoids mentioning, let alone discussing Anatoli's reasoning that he found the potential of rebound effect when running out of Os more dangerous than guiding without Os altogether. Would you consider breaking this topic down? I would love to finally hear some fact based reasoning about this.
Yes, agreed. I’m no expert but I find his reasoning sound. He knew his body and his limits. To some others it almost looks like oxygen gave them the illusion of invulnerability, whereas Anatoli was very conscious and very careful in managing his energy.
This is an absolutely fascinating video. I wish there was some way to further explore/investigate the-Taiwanese-may-have-stolen-the-O2 angle. That possibility would never have occurred to me in my wildest dreams.
This is a really excellent analysis with ironclad reasoning. For Krakauer, I suppose the missing oxygen bottle issue would not be a very dramatic narrative to base a magazine column and a book on--not as dramatic as a wealthy elitist woman causing all of the problems. You are generous in asserting that Krakauer did not understand the missing oxygen bottle issue; perhaps he understood it very well but also understood that the "wealthy elitist woman" narrative, though libelous and wrong, would sell more books.
Ultimately, we cannot know what Krakauer's true motivations were. However, his story dishonored the memory of Andy Harris -- who did not deserve it in any way. Not just the "Andy turned my oxygen up by mistake" but the whole "Andy was crazy and saying the bottles were empty" when Krakauer himself got a nearly empty bottle. Harris was trying to save people -- but no one listened because they didn't want to hear the truth that their oxygen was gone and it was not coming back. In hindsight, the one final thing that could have saved everyone's life on Adventure Consultants would have been if they listened to Andy Harris at 3PM when he told them the oxygen was gone. A large portion was indeed gone and Harris was not crazy.
Has zero to do dramatic narrative. JK and Outside desired to a story on how these not at all trained mountaineers were not a good thing. If was the oxygen, well, that is the fault of the experts, right, and so there goes the narrative. MT writes that he can't know, neither can I to a certainty, but if human A was told that human B was going to report him to the authorities...and then shortly thereafter human B is found dead from something other than natural causes and human A had the means and opportunity, there's the motive. Was a trial lawyer for more years than I care to remember and circumstantial evidence has, is and will continue to provide more justification for decision(s) than direct evidence, and it's not even close.
When Ed Viesturs and I got to camp 4 in 2004, we knew there was no chance of putting a second ladder down to the 2nd step. We decided to ask our Sherpa to fix extra ropes to the Rupal face and abseil the remaining 3699 feet without supplemental oxygen. Therefore, and thus, however the northeast ridge was brittle and prone to avalanche. W opted to bivuoac at 27;499 ft until the weather cleared.
This is getting good - the accumulation of detail, the inexorable logic… Reminiscent of John W. Berresford’s podcast on the Hiss-Chambers Espionage Case “A Pumpkin Patch, a Typewriter, and Richard Nixon.”
Wow. Thanks s😊 lots . Just started watching one of your Vids about the array of Titanic esque little things & choice pertaining to 1996 haunting Everest tragedy . Iam hearing facts ,opinions ( backed up by logical evidential facts ) , that Ive never come across before ; especially pertaining to mysterious disappearance oxygen bottles; bottles that shouls have been full , but eithe empty or marked as full but were left only partially full .. which of course were not enough . Thanks . Will be subscribing . 🦄💜
@michaeltracy2356 have really been enjoying your 1996 series... 1996 was the real beginning of my "Armchair Mountaineer" life :). Have devoured pretty much every related book over the past 25+ years several times over and it's really suprising the different versions/stories that come from the different teams. Obviously the JK/AB conflicts, and the personal accounts from Groom, Kasischke, and Gammalgaardnd. But the Vernon vs Dowd/Woodall storyline was very interesting I thought as well. So I am starting to get more into the Mallory & Irvine history, partly due to your series. Are there any books I should avoid on the subject due to blatant inaccuracies or other issues?
From all accounts, Doug Hanson was struggling and didn't feel good and he decided to quit and turn around. Rob Hall talked him out of it and convinced him to continue. Rob Hall didn't get any clients to the summit the previous year, which the movie implied, so he was under immense pressure to get clients to the top in 96.
Finally an unbiased account, not doing mental gymnastics to make that day the fault of Anstoli and Sandy. I wish others who cover this topic were as deferential in their commentary.
If somebody took the extra oxygen thinking, “5 of their team has turned around, they don’t need this, we can have it they’ll never know” then it’s not *quite* as psychotic as it seems. Another team may well have had summit fever and have been low on oxygen due to climbing slowly, so thought they’d swap out their bottles for the nice full ones they thought nobody needed. They potentially didn’t think about Rob adjusting the turn around time based on believing they had surplus oxygen waiting for them to get everyone down
Hi Michael, I've recently found your channel and really enjoying the videos. Could I ask your thoghts on why the ill fated expeditions had no Sherpa guides?
As the most of your viewers I like your detailed and accurate descriptions of 1996 Everest expedition. What I am very interested to see would be accurate timing based on your research when every person had got to the summit and what time they started their descend. In most sources I could see that Boukreev ascended around 1 pm and 5-10 minutes later Jon Krakauer. But it would be good to know about other people times and when Boukreev started his descend from the summit. Maybe you have this timing in your different videos but it would be helpful to see it in one place. Thank you in advance.
This first time on everest for both krak and harris. Both had never been at high altitude. Should have been 4 extra bottles at south summit from clients who turned around. Never thought about Taiwan team stealing oxygen, has anyone asked sherpas?
Weren't there reports of someone at Camp VI trying to tell Rob that the air canisters at the cache were full? Why would they have done that if the canisters had really been half empty? I thought that didn't just come from Krakauer's account, but maybe I am misremembering.
Why didn't, or couldn't, the Adventure Consultants team purchase the extra oxygen from Mountain Madness, since they (MM) already ordered it and had it for Krakauer? If the extra oxygen was there for Krakauer in the possession of Mountain Madness, couldn't the Adventure Consultants team make a side deal and pay the money to MM so that they could have the bottles for Krakauer? Or write up a quick contract at base camp, as a promise to pay for the oxygen later.
Could a high altitude oxygen concentration device be developed? Drone batteries seem to cope with high altitude and low temperatures. Might the batteries power a concentrator to gather enough oxygen for breathing.
Concentrators use too much power. You could developed a hydrolysis system that generates oxygen from water. You could then burn the hydrogen off to generate heat.
I have never been a fan of JK and your information just confirms the feeling I’ve had that there is something off about him. I’ve seen him speak a couple times and he’s always smiles when he speaks of these horrible tragedies cracking jokes etc, it’s creepy.
MT, don't go all JK on us. Meaning, if Rob changed the time, how was that communicated? No matter, since as you know, as JK relates but then never returns to, if Doug had stepped out of line, told Lou K that he was going back to camp, then Rob convinced him to resume his summit attempt, there's still the Doug problem, as it were. That event, by the way, is THE thing that explains rather well why Rob would not leave Doug alone on Everest even after was suggested to him to do so. Unlike some others, to his credit, at least Rob owned his prior act(s). Lastly, I've said this before, though not sure about on your vblog, but JK is at fault simply for being there. So is Outside, by the way. For the irony, well, do you not think that even JK came to know that, and so Sandy, doing what he was doing, became the perfect villain. He indicted himself by indicting her (she too was to blame for the very same reason as him). She was short-roped, as in, something was done for her because she was a special client? JK too was a special client. Take it as given that neither Rob nor Scott wanted a season with no summit. What the feds and some others would simply include in the category of human factors. By the way, you going to have a vid on JK's second regret? He says he has two, but only mentions Andy Harris. But his subconscious gives it away. In line with your Groom vid, JK's original ending, before the later added postscript: Beidleman paused. “But I can’t help thinking about Yasuko,” he said when he resumed, his voice hushed. “She was so little. I can still feel her fingers sliding across my biceps, and then letting go. I never even turned to look back.” What he himself had already done, as in, JK too can't help thinking about Yasuko and so she gets his last lines.
It was communicated to Michael Groom on South Summit by radio -- according to Groom. No new time was stated -- it was just -- let's go to the summit. It was later confirmed by Hall in person to Groom on South Summit -- again, just a "let's go" communication. No real mystery about it.
@@michaeltracy2356 Thanks. Do not have or have access to Groom's book. Was aware from ITA that there was, for Groom, at least one occasion with a radio problem. Now about the Doug Hansen problem? Since Rob convincing him to continue with/resume his summit attempt not only explains why Rob never abandoned him, but along the way, well, what was Rob going to do? Hits 3 PM and Rob looks down Everest and there's Doug...given his prior encouragement what he can say to have Doug turn around? Doug was going to do that earlier. Cannot fathom how an Everest replete with oxygen canisters solves that problem (even if Doug was on max flow the entire time). Goes back to the initial comment that we both replied to. As in, what with JK and Sandy being there neither Rob nor Scott wanted a no summit season. Thinking that the "eat his lunch" explains why a Rob Hall who said, know your body, could not accept Doug knowing his.
Does anyone recall the rumours going around about sketchy Russian/former Soviet oxygen supplies in connection to this incident? (Potentially on several expeditions in this era)
Golden words: judge motivation by deeds rather than words. The other bleedingly obvious fact: only Scott Fischer is lost from MM, while AC lost 4. That alone should have made me doubt the blame it on Sandy theory back then. My bad. 😞
Seems to me, Doug Hanson was going to be a main character for Outsider Mag's article by Krakauer, had everything gone to plan ~ which quickly devolved as the "1pm turn around time" went ignored, as did Hanson trying to descend w/o summiting b/c he felt ill. An everyman $tory would've played well too.
In his defense, I can’t imagine trying to remember every thing that happened during such a chaotic and desperate incident. Am reading “Into Thin Air” right now. I see it more as a POV more than anything. The fact that Krakauer could remember anything is amazing.
Why would someone who could not remember anything write a book about it? And then insist he got everything correct and that everyone else was mistaken. As I indicate in many of these videos, there are photographs which show what happened that day. It is amazing that Krakauer looked at the photographs and then wrote in his book the exact opposite of what was in the photo. It is amazing that in writing his book, he makes obvious mistakes -- such as placing himself at two different places on the mountain at the same time. More amazing that people keep giving him a pass for blatant errors that always error on the side of the agenda he is pushing.
I used to be almost certain that Mr Thin Air’s mind wasn’t clear. I thought he was not thinking properly and unable to racialized that those were indeed full Oxigen battles. And since he was not thinking clearly he toasted aside full battles causing a problem for everyone. But this makes more sense.
I know i don't know anything about climbing but why dosen't everyone take there own air bottles to keep track of them ? And why not take bigger bottles? Isn't keeping track of your own air bottles easier that have someone else taking care of them?
They are extremely heavy. And once a canister is used, you are left carrying it and it's useless. So the solution is to get the sherpas to carry 4 each and leave a stash or cache at different stages so the you can leave a half empty or fully empty canister behind and exchange it for a full one. This system works perfectly until someone else comes along and takes the oxygen Stash, for whatever reason. As per usual. The sherpas do the heavy lifting of carrying multiple bottles up amd down.
So what the hell happened to the oxygen the Taiwanese team SHOULD have brought up? Were they just too damned lazy? Or were they always planning on stealing it? This is a serious accusation but I believe what you're saying because as usual your statements are so well researched. Basically, then those on the Taiwanese team who participated in this oxygen theft are guilty of manslaughter at the least.
Start with something simple. Here is your homework assignment: How many oxygen bottles did the Taiwanese team use after 12PM on May 10, 1996? Please do not post until you have answered that rather simple question.
Who would? In addition to his Everest '96 fiction, JK went with Alexander Supertramp as some New Age Back To Nature hero and never mind that the blithering idiot did not have a map with marked escape routes in case the river ran high.
14:30 So Krakauer's ego just could not take being overtaken by the woman he wanted to discredit as a show-pony, more interested in her coffee pot than serious climbing? Everyone loves to hate a rich white woman, so he saw an opportunity.
Ok, this has really got me thinking, not so much as who stole the oxygen but how much was there actually available to steal? Since Anatoli wasn't using O2 and gave his initial ascent bottle to Neil, there ought to have been two more O2 bottles that were brought up for him. In terms of how much was available for the Mountain Madness team, there could also have been the O2 for Peter Schoening and Dale Kruse, (or had they already used them up in sleeping or did the Sherpa not have to carry them up to the caches once they were scratched from the ascent list?) Likewise with three Adventure Consultant clients turning round , that's another six available for Rob Hall's team, as you say. And yet, those six were not there? IFF (mathematical use there ) the Taiwanese took O2 from South Summit on the way up, how much would they have taken? One bottle for each of them is 3, would they have taken more and lugged spare bottles with them up to the summit? Since the Mountain madness debrief focused a little on where was the oxygen, I am puzzled over how they too lost full O2 bottles, because by the time Neil and the clients came down for theirs, the Taiwanese were still up above them? So with six potential extra bottles for Adventure Consultants not there and at least two for Mountain Madness not there, and only Makulu and two of his Sherpa to be pointed at, there's still a mystery of at least three and possibly five bottles not where they ought to have been. How much weight can a Gorak lift? BTW I got "The Climb" and am going through it, I have to say there's a lot more of interest in that debrief, not only what was said, but a couple of instances where Lene clashes with Sandy, and Neil reflects on an unpleasant thought that had just occurred to him without actually going into it. Another interesting point in the debrief was why Lene and Klev wandered over to the group instead of dashing for the tents, Klev suggests they didn't have a working headlamp between them. And Martin is immediately worrying about litigation? What was on his mind that made him that jittery? I wish I had read that book a lot sooner. My feelings are I can put a lot more trust in the debrief section than anywhere else in the book, or indeed JK's book, because there is far less of an editorial agenda to it.
Boukreev came through when things had become so bad that the group had no choice but to sit and huddle together and try and wait it out rather than walk off the side of the mountain. Many came close to drifting off and some did, such as Yasuko and Beck. Is that what a guide up Everest is supposed to do, wait until the very the last minute of a life or death situation before he begins a search and rescue? Had he stayed with that group maybe they could have reached camp 4 instead of wandering around hopelessly until they were forced to stay put for fear of falling off the mountain. Instead, apparently he felt his skills, as probably the strongest climber on the mountain that day, were best utilized making some hot tea in preparation for the teams arrival from what is often hailed as one of the worst storms in Everest climbing history. He unfortunately was too exhausted to go back for Yasuko and Beck, yet not exhausted enough to go out the following day in search of his friend and boss Scott Fischer as well as make a successful solo ascent of Lhotse also sans oxygen right after the disaster, before leaving the mountain. His reasoning, he was hoping to find some inner clarity. I wonder how many of the other climbers had it in them to do the same following what they went through on Everest? It also begs the question if he hadn’t chosen to ascend without oxygen, would he perhaps had had more energy to make additional attempts to save Yasuko or Beck? He signed up as guide, he had the authority of a guide and was paid as a guide. Safe to say he then had the responsibility a guide has and, in the circumstances that befell the other guides and customers on the mountain that day, that entailed more than reaching the peak first and heading back down passing struggling climbers so that he could make tea for them as they arrived. He was selfish and, as the strongest climber on the mountain, should have been much more involved in the ascent and descent of the customers he was being paid to assist. This becomes exceedingly more apparent when Scott Fischer becomes incapacitated and unable to continue as the Leader of his climbing party. In fact, I am of the opinion that the responsibility then falls on the strongest climber of those employed as Guides. We see this in countless other scenarios where there is a duty of care that is owed by those in charge who are responsible for paying customers in their care, be it a captain of a sinking ship or a pilot of an airplane. Why should this be any different? The correct answer is it isn’t. Had he been climbing solo and not hired as a guide, or had he been the guide of some other climbing group who had safely all made it back to camp 4, then his actions could be deemed heroic and he might even be able to escape scrutiny if he did nothing. But that wasn’t the scenario as it was his group that were lost and dying as he prepared tea. Would we feel it acceptable for a captain to abandon ship so he could prepare things for when some of the customers who were able to survive the freezing waters arrived at the lifeboat he was on? The captain of the Costa Concordia was harshly rebuked and even faced prison time when he left his heavily tilted ship to, as he put it, more effectively direct the rescue efforts from dry land. So, I again ask, is the 1996 Everest climbing disaster so monumentally different that to make a comparison, in terms of responsibility owed paying clientele with much less experience, is simply out of the question and absurd? I certainly don’t think so. The man was a selfish elitist and those in his care paid dearly as a result. If your child was one of the climbers in Scott Fischer’s group in 1996, would you still be so quick to absolve Boukreev of all responsibility, even if, your child ends up as one of the disfigured or worse dead, left frozen in place on the mountain for other climbers to witness and photograph while you, as a Father, are denied these things, or even a chance to say goodbye as you bury them?
I'm sorry, but I have no understanding for risking my own life and that of others to climb a mountain. No amount of money and pride can be worth it. Not to mention the destruction of this monument with corpses and garbage. Is it so important to be able to say: Look, I climbed Everest? The same applies to mountains like K2, Lhotse, Annapurna, etc.
Sorry, but youre just bitter at this point. Rob Hall wanted to have him there, why does it concern you wether this was paid for or not? Its none of your business. It doesnt change the fact Rob Hall nearly killed Weathers. It doesnt make Krakauer responsible for Yasuko. He wasnt a paid guide but had the status of a customer, paying or not.
I to would like to know what he’s bitter about? All of these clips are based on presented evidence. I drank the kool-aid and believed the others at one time but now my eyes are opened to the facts. If you can put together a rebuttal that’s based on presentable facts do it.
I agree. Most of this video is bad mouthing Krakouer. He may have made a bad judgement about leaving the south summit early. But all your time up there you’re dying so I understand his urge to get up and down quickly. But what he and Harris did with their oxygen has nothing to do with what happened next to the others
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” ― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
Incredible investigative work Michael. You've effectively cracked the case, down to the most elusive details.
Rarely, if ever, I watch a video for the second time to better understand the facts. With every of your videos, Michael, it’s a case that I have to watch it more than twice. Your approach is as scientific as it can be, given the scarcity of evidence. Your ability to deduce it from small and sometimes trivial pieces of information is what draws my attention to your videos. I’d call it high altitude forensics, and you - the Everest detective. :) I can’t wait when you complete your mission of telling the story of 1996 Everest disaster and write the ultimate authoritative book on the subject to finally put Krakauer’s disinformation piece to rest and out of circulation.
I’m just so impressed with the quality of everything you put out. You do a ton of digging and always bring something interesting to the table from a fresh perspective. Even folks who disagree with you on certain points (which includes myself on very rare occasions.. but not here) can’t deny that your research and discovery are impeccable. Thanks for putting in the legwork to bring this stuff to the light of day. You are very good at what you do.
Excellent, excellent, excellent! I love your research and viewpoints!
"...vanished into thin air." I saw what you did there Mikey!
😂😂
❤😂🎉
Thank you for putting some sense, with your research, into what most surely happen. I feel I'm stuck in a never ending loop of not understanding regarding the tragedy of -96. So many died for more or less "no reason".
I'm greatly looking forward to the next video. 😺
What is note-worthy about Andy Harris is the fact that Lene Gammelgaard noticed on separate occasions during the ascent that he wasn't feeling very well. First time if I remember correctly on the South Summit actually and the second time on the summit itself.
Thank you for this video Michael, great to see how everything is starting to add up. Before your series on 1996 disaster I always had trouble piecing a coherent story from publicly available sources and rope fixing was so vague from few sources who actually presented it as an issue, that it was hard to believe as a cause.
Fascinating and insightful video as always! I'm looking forward to part 2 of this. I remember reading Krakauer's description of Harris insisting the bottles were empty, and not questioning his assertion that Harris had been wrong... but that always came with a slight background confusion. The lack of oxygen continued to be a problem for the rest of the descent, and later rescue attempts; if there had really been a bunch of overlooked full bottles at south summit... why didn't they appear in the narrative again later?
Krakauer's narrative asserts that Harris was wrong about the bottles being empty, but then basically continues on from that point as if the bottles really *were* empty, despite claiming that they were full. But Krakauer is the king of the handwave.
The more I hear your analysis the more it all makes sense. Thank You Mr Tracy! The whole incident is a not surprising study of somewhat nefarious human nature. With Krakauer being the tip of that nefarious spear.
This is fascinating and casts a LOT more light on what really happened and why. Finally after all these years I understand much better. The amount of detail-obsessive work is considerable that it must take to figure all this out from disparate sources, not all of which are consistent, and statements of (supposed) fact that you can't know for sure whether they're factual or not until otherwise corroborated. I find myself wanting to make a big spreadsheet of exactly who arrived and departed from many different points (camp, Balcony, S. Summit, etc.) at exactly what time (or with different alternate possible times noted and source cited). Some animation geek could then make a video with labeled dots proceeding. What fun that would be to see! The point about the Taiwanese suddenly increasing their rate of ascent after leaving S. Summit is very telling. Kinda like pro athletes whose strength performance suddenly zooms up, and they're later found to have been doping. Thanks for all the work these take.
I had the exact same thought! An animation of dots going up and down the mountain to indicate climbing times in relation to each other
Floyd Landis comes to mind
And it's why I wonder about Bruce Herrod on the South African team later. He was so slow compared to Woodall and O'Dowd. Woodall was at least a control freak.
Woo-hooo. Always a pleasure to receive this notice.
Totally agree
And suddenly it all makes sense!
Thank you Michael, more good work 🙏🙏
The hypothesis of the Taiwanese taking the O2 is a grenade into the liability of why... damn.
This is the incredible solving of a mystery, that was apparently created by a best-selling book. Amazing. A real life Sherlock Holmes
Brilliant analysis! Thanks!
go off king
@MT ...and again, facts presented with your opinion, so that we can see what your opinions are based on. Love that. One question: there is an ever going roasting championship in the online space regarding Anatoli guiding without Os - yet all critique avoids mentioning, let alone discussing Anatoli's reasoning that he found the potential of rebound effect when running out of Os more dangerous than guiding without Os altogether. Would you consider breaking this topic down? I would love to finally hear some fact based reasoning about this.
Yes, agreed.
I’m no expert but I find his reasoning sound. He knew his body and his limits. To some others it almost looks like oxygen gave them the illusion of invulnerability, whereas Anatoli was very conscious and very careful in managing his energy.
This is an absolutely fascinating video. I wish there was some way to further explore/investigate the-Taiwanese-may-have-stolen-the-O2 angle. That possibility would never have occurred to me in my wildest dreams.
This is a really excellent analysis with ironclad reasoning. For Krakauer, I suppose the missing oxygen bottle issue would not be a very dramatic narrative to base a magazine column and a book on--not as dramatic as a wealthy elitist woman causing all of the problems. You are generous in asserting that Krakauer did not understand the missing oxygen bottle issue; perhaps he understood it very well but also understood that the "wealthy elitist woman" narrative, though libelous and wrong, would sell more books.
Ultimately, we cannot know what Krakauer's true motivations were. However, his story dishonored the memory of Andy Harris -- who did not deserve it in any way. Not just the "Andy turned my oxygen up by mistake" but the whole "Andy was crazy and saying the bottles were empty" when Krakauer himself got a nearly empty bottle.
Harris was trying to save people -- but no one listened because they didn't want to hear the truth that their oxygen was gone and it was not coming back. In hindsight, the one final thing that could have saved everyone's life on Adventure Consultants would have been if they listened to Andy Harris at 3PM when he told them the oxygen was gone. A large portion was indeed gone and Harris was not crazy.
Has zero to do dramatic narrative. JK and Outside desired to a story on how these not at all trained mountaineers were not a good thing. If was the oxygen, well, that is the fault of the experts, right, and so there goes the narrative. MT writes that he can't know, neither can I to a certainty, but if human A was told that human B was going to report him to the authorities...and then shortly thereafter human B is found dead from something other than natural causes and human A had the means and opportunity, there's the motive. Was a trial lawyer for more years than I care to remember and circumstantial evidence has, is and will continue to provide more justification for decision(s) than direct evidence, and it's not even close.
The yeti with the oxygen mask is where I lost it lmao
When Ed Viesturs and I got to camp 4 in 2004, we knew there was no chance of putting a second ladder down to the 2nd step. We decided to ask our Sherpa to fix extra ropes to the Rupal face and abseil the remaining 3699 feet without supplemental oxygen. Therefore, and thus, however the northeast ridge was brittle and prone to avalanche. W opted to bivuoac at 27;499 ft until the weather cleared.
Perfect timing, I was just sitting down to do some rote work I needed to keep interesting with a video/podcast.
This is getting good - the accumulation of detail, the inexorable logic…
Reminiscent of John W. Berresford’s podcast on the Hiss-Chambers Espionage Case “A Pumpkin Patch, a Typewriter, and Richard Nixon.”
Anger about people climbing faster than you has no place up there. Emotionless mountaineering 💪
Wow. Thanks s😊 lots . Just started watching one of your Vids about the array of Titanic esque little things & choice pertaining to 1996 haunting Everest tragedy . Iam hearing facts ,opinions ( backed up by logical evidential facts ) , that Ive never come across before ; especially pertaining to mysterious disappearance oxygen bottles; bottles that shouls have been full , but eithe empty or marked as full but were left only partially full .. which of course were not enough . Thanks . Will be subscribing . 🦄💜
Every time I climb even the most gentle slope, I proudly proclaim that I am climbing the zig zag route.
@michaeltracy2356 have really been enjoying your 1996 series... 1996 was the real beginning of my "Armchair Mountaineer" life :). Have devoured pretty much every related book over the past 25+ years several times over and it's really suprising the different versions/stories that come from the different teams. Obviously the JK/AB conflicts, and the personal accounts from Groom, Kasischke, and Gammalgaardnd. But the Vernon vs Dowd/Woodall storyline was very interesting I thought as well.
So I am starting to get more into the Mallory & Irvine history, partly due to your series. Are there any books I should avoid on the subject due to blatant inaccuracies or other issues?
From all accounts, Doug Hanson was struggling and didn't feel good and he decided to quit and turn around. Rob Hall talked him out of it and convinced him to continue. Rob Hall didn't get any clients to the summit the previous year, which the movie implied, so he was under immense pressure to get clients to the top in 96.
Where is the part 2? I want to listen to it!
This is very interesting and good work.
Because Krak lied and then made $$ off the story, the truth may never be believed, sad story
Agreed
But, but, how do we blame Sandy Pittman for the missing bottles? :)
Keep up the logical analysis Mr Tracy.
Boukreev took them!
Finally an unbiased account, not doing mental gymnastics to make that day the fault of Anstoli and Sandy. I wish others who cover this topic were as deferential in their commentary.
2:09 Krakauer was there to make money, and he did.
Perhaps its just the way he writes but, given that his place on the climb was 'free', Krakauer sure comes across as entitled and egotistical.
Wouldnt taking someones full o2 bottles and replacing them with empties, and then marking them as full, be murder? Or at the very least attempted..?
Why would anyone do something like that, that's psychopathic
And I have never before heard this theory that lot of them actually possibly died because of the stolen oxygen.
Which country's law are we discussing? The South summit is on the border between China and Nepal.
If somebody took the extra oxygen thinking, “5 of their team has turned around, they don’t need this, we can have it they’ll never know” then it’s not *quite* as psychotic as it seems. Another team may well have had summit fever and have been low on oxygen due to climbing slowly, so thought they’d swap out their bottles for the nice full ones they thought nobody needed. They potentially didn’t think about Rob adjusting the turn around time based on believing they had surplus oxygen waiting for them to get everyone down
Hi Michael, I've recently found your channel and really enjoying the videos. Could I ask your thoghts on why the ill fated expeditions had no Sherpa guides?
As the most of your viewers I like your detailed and accurate descriptions of 1996 Everest expedition. What I am very interested to see would be accurate timing based on your research when every person had got to the summit and what time they started their descend. In most sources I could see that Boukreev ascended around 1 pm and 5-10 minutes later Jon Krakauer. But it would be good to know about other people times and when Boukreev started his descend from the summit. Maybe you have this timing in your different videos but it would be helpful to see it in one place. Thank you in advance.
If Krakauer was reciting Shakespeare. How can any of his memories high on the mountain or decent be reliable?
"Into thin air!." Whole new meaning...
This first time on everest for both krak and harris. Both had never been at high altitude. Should have been 4 extra bottles at south summit from clients who turned around. Never thought about Taiwan team stealing oxygen, has anyone asked sherpas?
"A large portion of their oxygen cache had vanished...into thin air" 😂
Weren't there reports of someone at Camp VI trying to tell Rob that the air canisters at the cache were full? Why would they have done that if the canisters had really been half empty? I thought that didn't just come from Krakauer's account, but maybe I am misremembering.
Why didn't, or couldn't, the Adventure Consultants team purchase the extra oxygen from Mountain Madness, since they (MM) already ordered it and had it for Krakauer?
If the extra oxygen was there for Krakauer in the possession of Mountain Madness, couldn't the Adventure Consultants team make a side deal and pay the money to MM so that they could have the bottles for Krakauer?
Or write up a quick contract at base camp, as a promise to pay for the oxygen later.
"Into thin air" is a fine work....................of fiction.
Could a high altitude oxygen concentration device be developed?
Drone batteries seem to cope with high altitude and low temperatures.
Might the batteries power a concentrator to gather enough oxygen for breathing.
Concentrators use too much power. You could developed a hydrolysis system that generates oxygen from water. You could then burn the hydrogen off to generate heat.
Will there be a Krakauer rebuttal ?
I have never been a fan of JK and your information just confirms the feeling I’ve had that there is something off about him. I’ve seen him speak a couple times and he’s always smiles when he speaks of these horrible tragedies cracking jokes etc, it’s creepy.
MT, don't go all JK on us. Meaning, if Rob changed the time, how was that communicated? No matter, since as you know, as JK relates but then never returns to, if Doug had stepped out of line, told Lou K that he was going back to camp, then Rob convinced him to resume his summit attempt, there's still the Doug problem, as it were. That event, by the way, is THE thing that explains rather well why Rob would not leave Doug alone on Everest even after was suggested to him to do so. Unlike some others, to his credit, at least Rob owned his prior act(s). Lastly, I've said this before, though not sure about on your vblog, but JK is at fault simply for being there. So is Outside, by the way. For the irony, well, do you not think that even JK came to know that, and so Sandy, doing what he was doing, became the perfect villain. He indicted himself by indicting her (she too was to blame for the very same reason as him). She was short-roped, as in, something was done for her because she was a special client? JK too was a special client. Take it as given that neither Rob nor Scott wanted a season with no summit. What the feds and some others would simply include in the category of human factors.
By the way, you going to have a vid on JK's second regret? He says he has two, but only mentions Andy Harris. But his subconscious gives it away. In line with your Groom vid, JK's original ending, before the later added postscript:
Beidleman paused. “But I can’t help thinking about Yasuko,” he said
when he resumed, his voice hushed. “She was so little. I can still feel
her fingers sliding across my biceps, and then letting go. I never even
turned to look back.”
What he himself had already done, as in, JK too can't help thinking about Yasuko and so she gets his last lines.
It was communicated to Michael Groom on South Summit by radio -- according to Groom. No new time was stated -- it was just -- let's go to the summit. It was later confirmed by Hall in person to Groom on South Summit -- again, just a "let's go" communication. No real mystery about it.
@@michaeltracy2356 Thanks. Do not have or have access to Groom's book. Was aware from ITA that there was, for Groom, at least one occasion with a radio problem.
Now about the Doug Hansen problem? Since Rob convincing him to continue with/resume his summit attempt not only explains why Rob never abandoned him, but along the way, well, what was Rob going to do? Hits 3 PM and Rob looks down Everest and there's Doug...given his prior encouragement what he can say to have Doug turn around? Doug was going to do that earlier. Cannot fathom how an Everest replete with oxygen canisters solves that problem (even if Doug was on max flow the entire time).
Goes back to the initial comment that we both replied to. As in, what with JK and Sandy being there neither Rob nor Scott wanted a no summit season. Thinking that the "eat his lunch" explains why a Rob Hall who said, know your body, could not accept Doug knowing his.
Does anyone recall the rumours going around about sketchy Russian/former Soviet oxygen supplies in connection to this incident? (Potentially on several expeditions in this era)
I do...worth considering.
I'm on vacation and this tops that!
Same here 🎉
I also want to be at the Summit!
❤❤❤
I wish some of the other big name TH-cam climbers would pay attention to what you’re saying and stop trusting krak.
Golden words: judge motivation by deeds rather than words.
The other bleedingly obvious fact: only Scott Fischer is lost from MM, while AC lost 4. That alone should have made me doubt the blame it on Sandy theory back then. My bad. 😞
Seems to me, Doug Hanson was going to be a main character for Outsider Mag's article by Krakauer, had everything gone to plan ~ which quickly devolved as the "1pm turn around time" went ignored, as did Hanson trying to descend w/o summiting b/c he felt ill. An everyman $tory would've played well too.
Thanks for your work man not a lot of truth out there theese days
In his defense, I can’t imagine trying to remember every thing that happened during such a chaotic and desperate incident. Am reading “Into Thin Air” right now. I see it more as a POV more than anything. The fact that Krakauer could remember anything is amazing.
Why would someone who could not remember anything write a book about it? And then insist he got everything correct and that everyone else was mistaken.
As I indicate in many of these videos, there are photographs which show what happened that day. It is amazing that Krakauer looked at the photographs and then wrote in his book the exact opposite of what was in the photo. It is amazing that in writing his book, he makes obvious mistakes -- such as placing himself at two different places on the mountain at the same time. More amazing that people keep giving him a pass for blatant errors that always error on the side of the agenda he is pushing.
@@michaeltracy2356 agree to disagree. Just the way I interpret it.
I used to be almost certain that Mr Thin Air’s mind wasn’t clear. I thought he was not thinking properly and unable to racialized that those were indeed full Oxigen battles. And since he was not thinking clearly he toasted aside full battles causing a problem for everyone. But this makes more sense.
I know i don't know anything about climbing but why dosen't everyone take there own air bottles to keep track of them ? And why not take bigger bottles? Isn't keeping track of your own air bottles easier that have someone else taking care of them?
They are extremely heavy. And once a canister is used, you are left carrying it and it's useless. So the solution is to get the sherpas to carry 4 each and leave a stash or cache at different stages so the you can leave a half empty or fully empty canister behind and exchange it for a full one. This system works perfectly until someone else comes along and takes the oxygen Stash, for whatever reason. As per usual. The sherpas do the heavy lifting of carrying multiple bottles up amd down.
I tried to read Neverest last night. Gave it up because the guy couldn't keep the two teams straight
So what the hell happened to the oxygen the Taiwanese team SHOULD have brought up? Were they just too damned lazy? Or were they always planning on stealing it? This is a serious accusation but I believe what you're saying because as usual your statements are so well researched. Basically, then those on the Taiwanese team who participated in this oxygen theft are guilty of manslaughter at the least.
Taiwanese team had 2 clients. How many oxygen bottles did they supposedly steal?
Start with something simple. Here is your homework assignment: How many oxygen bottles did the Taiwanese team use after 12PM on May 10, 1996? Please do not post until you have answered that rather simple question.
This guy dose not like krakauer lol
Who would? In addition to his Everest '96 fiction, JK went with Alexander Supertramp as some New Age Back To Nature hero and never mind that the blithering idiot did not have a map with marked escape routes in case the river ran high.
Pulls out gun, “I’m gonna need that second video real soon”. This was great.
Why was the Taiwanese group not prosecuted for stealing the oxygen.
14:30 So Krakauer's ego just could not take being overtaken by the woman he wanted to discredit as a show-pony, more interested in her coffee pot than serious climbing? Everyone loves to hate a rich white woman, so he saw an opportunity.
2:00 Holy shit this is some scandalous stuff.
Ok, this has really got me thinking, not so much as who stole the oxygen but how much was there actually available to steal?
Since Anatoli wasn't using O2 and gave his initial ascent bottle to Neil, there ought to have been two more O2 bottles that were brought up for him. In terms of how much was available for the Mountain Madness team, there could also have been the O2 for Peter Schoening and Dale Kruse, (or had they already used them up in sleeping or did the Sherpa not have to carry them up to the caches once they were scratched from the ascent list?)
Likewise with three Adventure Consultant clients turning round , that's another six available for Rob Hall's team, as you say. And yet, those six were not there?
IFF (mathematical use there ) the Taiwanese took O2 from South Summit on the way up, how much would they have taken? One bottle for each of them is 3, would they have taken more and lugged spare bottles with them up to the summit? Since the Mountain madness debrief focused a little on where was the oxygen, I am puzzled over how they too lost full O2 bottles, because by the time Neil and the clients came down for theirs, the Taiwanese were still up above them?
So with six potential extra bottles for Adventure Consultants not there and at least two for Mountain Madness not there, and only Makulu and two of his Sherpa to be pointed at, there's still a mystery of at least three and possibly five bottles not where they ought to have been. How much weight can a Gorak lift?
BTW I got "The Climb" and am going through it, I have to say there's a lot more of interest in that debrief, not only what was said, but a couple of instances where Lene clashes with Sandy, and Neil reflects on an unpleasant thought that had just occurred to him without actually going into it. Another interesting point in the debrief was why Lene and Klev wandered over to the group instead of dashing for the tents, Klev suggests they didn't have a working headlamp between them. And Martin is immediately worrying about litigation? What was on his mind that made him that jittery? I wish I had read that book a lot sooner.
My feelings are I can put a lot more trust in the debrief section than anywhere else in the book, or indeed JK's book, because there is far less of an editorial agenda to it.
I have the actual Down suit that Michael Groom wore on this exact expedition in 96.
Your videos are always great comedy. But at the expense of the people who suffered.
I wouldn't at all be surprised if the Thai team did this. Most of them were cowboys, with poor reputations.
Boukreev came through when things had become so bad that the group had no choice but to sit and huddle together and try and wait it out rather than walk off the side of the mountain. Many came close to drifting off and some did, such as Yasuko and Beck. Is that what a guide up Everest is supposed to do, wait until the very the last minute of a life or death situation before he begins a search and rescue? Had he stayed with that group maybe they could have reached camp 4 instead of wandering around hopelessly until they were forced to stay put for fear of falling off the mountain. Instead, apparently he felt his skills, as probably the strongest climber on the mountain that day, were best utilized making some hot tea in preparation for the teams arrival from what is often hailed as one of the worst storms in Everest climbing history. He unfortunately was too exhausted to go back for Yasuko and Beck, yet not exhausted enough to go out the following day in search of his friend and boss Scott Fischer as well as make a successful solo ascent of Lhotse also sans oxygen right after the disaster, before leaving the mountain. His reasoning, he was hoping to find some inner clarity. I wonder how many of the other climbers had it in them to do the same following what they went through on Everest? It also begs the question if he hadn’t chosen to ascend without oxygen, would he perhaps had had more energy to make additional attempts to save Yasuko or Beck? He signed up as guide, he had the authority of a guide and was paid as a guide. Safe to say he then had the responsibility a guide has and, in the circumstances that befell the other guides and customers on the mountain that day, that entailed more than reaching the peak first and heading back down passing struggling climbers so that he could make tea for them as they arrived. He was selfish and, as the strongest climber on the mountain, should have been much more involved in the ascent and descent of the customers he was being paid to assist. This becomes exceedingly more apparent when Scott Fischer becomes incapacitated and unable to continue as the Leader of his climbing party. In fact, I am of the opinion that the responsibility then falls on the strongest climber of those employed as Guides. We see this in countless other scenarios where there is a duty of care that is owed by those in charge who are responsible for paying customers in their care, be it a captain of a sinking ship or a pilot of an airplane. Why should this be any different? The correct answer is it isn’t. Had he been climbing solo and not hired as a guide, or had he been the guide of some other climbing group who had safely all made it back to camp 4, then his actions could be deemed heroic and he might even be able to escape scrutiny if he did nothing. But that wasn’t the scenario as it was his group that were lost and dying as he prepared tea. Would we feel it acceptable for a captain to abandon ship so he could prepare things for when some of the customers who were able to survive the freezing waters arrived at the lifeboat he was on? The captain of the Costa Concordia was harshly rebuked and even faced prison time when he left his heavily tilted ship to, as he put it, more effectively direct the rescue efforts from dry land. So, I again ask, is the 1996 Everest climbing disaster so monumentally different that to make a comparison, in terms of responsibility owed paying clientele with much less experience, is simply out of the question and absurd? I certainly don’t think so. The man was a selfish elitist and those in his care paid dearly as a result. If your child was one of the climbers in Scott Fischer’s group in 1996, would you still be so quick to absolve Boukreev of all responsibility, even if, your child ends up as one of the disfigured or worse dead, left frozen in place on the mountain for other climbers to witness and photograph while you, as a Father, are denied these things, or even a chance to say goodbye as you bury them?
Is it just me, or does it seem like the climbing community has an inordinate number of infantile egomaniacs?
Simply put this was a screw-up. I equate it with the disappearance of Amelia Earhart. Poor planning followed by even worse execution.
I'm sorry, but I have no understanding for risking my own life and that of others to climb a mountain. No amount of money and pride can be worth it. Not to mention the destruction of this monument with corpses and garbage. Is it so important to be able to say: Look, I climbed Everest? The same applies to mountains like K2, Lhotse, Annapurna, etc.
I believe it's a matter of perception of what is important in a person's life. Climbing Everest is a addiction for some.
We're all different.
Sorry, but youre just bitter at this point. Rob Hall wanted to have him there, why does it concern you wether this was paid for or not? Its none of your business. It doesnt change the fact Rob Hall nearly killed Weathers. It doesnt make Krakauer responsible for Yasuko. He wasnt a paid guide but had the status of a customer, paying or not.
What am I bitter about exactly?
i don't think he's bitter, just a contrarian, using somersault lawyer arguments. Still entertaining though!
I to would like to know what he’s bitter about? All of these clips are based on presented evidence. I drank the kool-aid and believed the others at one time but now my eyes are opened to the facts. If you can put together a rebuttal that’s based on presentable facts do it.
I agree. Most of this video is bad mouthing Krakouer. He may have made a bad judgement about leaving the south summit early. But all your time up there you’re dying so I understand his urge to get up and down quickly.
But what he and Harris did with their oxygen has nothing to do with what happened next to the others
he basically accused the Taiwanese of murder in this vid bro. I can see some bug people jacking oxygen on everest
You people have Krakauer derangement syndrome.
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark