Though honestly, I think Quark's quickdraw and point blank shooting of a Jem'hadar soldier is probably the best choreographed and most pointed statement that survival and protection of loved ones can very well override any philosophy of co-operative economic and social accord. I mean only 10 minutes after espousing the Ferengi culture of negotiation and trade, and then suddenly he realises he is not much different than the humanity he describes to Nog.
Honestly, ANY living creature that has loved ones will go become like that should their loved ones be put in peril. It takes a really harsh level of brainwashing like the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta to not act like that.
Even the Ferengi put weapons on their ships. Nothing was overriden. I'm sure Quark would still hold to what he said previously. Just in that moment, the time of negotiation and trading was over.
I think it's more about experience. He's espousing negotiation because he knows what killing someone is. He's had experience taking life, and he knows how that haunts you for the rest of your life. His perspective is simple. This is all stupid. War sucks... It's murder, and people, good people, die for the stupidest of reasons. It's all better if you sit down, and talk. But no one ever listens. That's what war is, and he knows it. So he kills, again... Just to see the next morning. Seriously... War sucks. It's vicious, gross, and terrifying. You really don't know true cruelty until you've been apart of such a hell.
What people forget is that several times in the series they hint at just how acute ferengi hearing is. Quark heard the entire battle, every shot, stab, grunt, and sizzle. That Jem'Hadar never had a chance, he literally heard him coming the entire time.
One thing that should also been taken into consideration: the horror Quark is experiencing by just hearing all the chaos. He can identify exactly what is happening with every little sound his ears are capturing. Every single situation. Just imagine being there, listening and then picturing in your mind all those horrors happening just a few ways from you. Couple that with Nog having lost his leg and this was probably the worst day in Quark's life.
You forget quarks seen and heard worse doing the occupation and before he served on a ferengi ship meaning hes probably fought before and knows what it's like to kill.
And, it was established in the first season of T.N.G. that Ferengi are stronger than they look. Plus, they're smaller targets. Give him some training and armor, and, he could be QUITE dangerous on a battlefield like that one.
He is so damn underrated! Generally the Ferengi are the comic relief, but there are certain moments like these when Quark, Rom or Nog are FANTASTIC in a serious situation. It's moments like these when I think TV actors are better than some movie actors. The actors that have to act through all of those prosthetics especially are amazing at portraying emotion. There is one episode where Kira is in love with Shakar, and Odo's heart is in pieces. Rene Auberjonois did an AMAZING job of portraying utter heartbreak through the mask.
Honestly my favorite part of the episode was when Worf tells Sisko "This was a great victory...one worthy of story...and song." You can practically feel the awe Worf feels for what Sisko and the rest of the troops have accomplished.
@@bentenchoYeah, soon afterwards the Breen would deal a devastating defeat on the Federation Alliance. It is doubtful they had time to evacuate the soldiers stationed here.
An extremely epic depiction of warfare in a fictional setting,yet is still realistic concerning the horrors of war.I saw this episode during the original run of STDS9.This was one of the few episodes that had a strong impact on me.I still think about this particular episode till this very day.I've always studied about different wars throughout history.Unfortunately,there are certain situations that force you to do whatever needs to be done to protect yourself as well as those you hold dear.I have never wanted to join the military,but I'm very quick to inflict harm upon someone who intends to harm me.Better them & not me.
Given that the Director Winrich Kolbe served in the Viet Nam War, I can only imagine how that influenced him in the depiction of the hellish ground war we're shown.
and the most realistic. boots on the ground battles are often very bloody, historical examples include the egyptian siege of alexender by julius ceaser, the D-Day invasion, and the entire vetinam war.
@Samar3n to note, the D-Day invasion consisted of many allies, including British, Australian, and other allies, not just the united states. the only "US" centristic historical example is the entire Vietnam war. the Egyptian siege of alexander by Julius Ceaser happened long before the americas was even found, let alone anyone even thinking of making a nation in the americas back then.
Quark wanted to do that in Way of the Warrior when the Klingons attacked the station, only to find Rom had used parts of his disruptor to fix the replicator 😆
The episode was amazing, a true homage to movies like Platoon as well as a tribute to real life soldiers who hold the line in the constant conflicts. The music used in this episode was very powerful, it's a shame it can't be found for download. Truly fitting and very powerful when considering the tone of the episode it was used in.
@@antanybaines2747 I disagree... even though it might give a slight advantage... it would still be a bloody battle on both sides of the fight... Jem'hadar are trained from birth for only one thing, combat. they have no sense of retreat unless a Vorta were to order it.
Starfleet has something in space but what about on the ground? Imagine giving some scientist a gun and telling him to fight a bunch of aliens and- Im just talking about half life right?
1:24.....Reese flips out. Interesting in this episode, we see the toll constant fighting has taken on the men. The contrast between Reese and Vargas. Vargas is always on edge, twitchy. Wound up like a spring ready to snap, and he ultimately dies. Reese by comparison is sombre and moody. Composed and in control when he's not fighting, carrying ketrocel white tubes and a stolen Jem'Hadar trophy knife with him in battle. He becomes a whirlwind of human rage in combat which he lets loose on the Jem'Hadar, and ultimately survives. Leaving his knife behind in the dirt. I just found that interesting. How war can ruin some men the way it did with Vargas, and Reese......who in a strange way is almost at home with it. I don't deny he may suffer from PTSD later on perhaps, but its interesting how he was alot more composed and calm in contrast to Vargas.
@Luis Garcia I can only hope those guys actually know what they're doing with Star Trek: Picard. I already don't like where the character starts off, it seems to deviate a lot from where we last saw him. But then again, this _is_ after Romulus' destruction, so maybe events after that may have crushed him. We will see, I really HOPE the series turns out good, but I'm staying skeptical.
@Luis Garcia Well, an entire major planet like Romulus blowing up surely would affect the Federation a lot. And in universe, we could remember this is also post-Dominion war, so the Federation might've finally decided to take up a few more militaristic approaches to keep other similar and unknown threats in check. I don't know if we will really see "the future as not as idylical as before", but I do think we'll see the Federation on one of its worse times and the main theme might be to "take back paradise", so to speak. Recover that utopia that the Federation used to be and that conflicts such as the ones seen in DS9 sacrificed so many lives to protect. I'm not really bothering with all the haters saying "this isn't TNG anymore" and stuff, I watched a video talking about ST: Picard and while the guy raised _some_ good points, his overall speech was just unbearable. It was more filled with frustration and anger then with an analytical perception of the thing. I'm really fine if they try new stuff, as long as they do it good and still manage to keep some core elements. For instance, tougher times or not, the Federation striving to be a futuristic utopia _is_ one of the main cores of the Star Trek series as a whole, so while they may show a darker side to the whole thing, I would still like to see them (the characters and that world itself) trying to go back, to retrieve that former glory they used to have. I think that would be an interesting theme to play around: the fall from grace and the rising up to get back to it again. Just my thoughts on it. Regardless, there are many directors who have missed the mark a lot when directing a new show and I'm just afraid that Star Trek: Picard will be one more of those cases. I really hope it doesn't, but I'd rather be prepared for the worst.
As a vet of various conflicts, NO soldier loves combat. Fighting is part of the oath we take as we join. Everyone reacts in different ways, some good, some bad, how we handle it defines the soldier. Pray for PEACE……….
Armin Shimerman deserves an Oscar for this! The Ferengi generally are the comic relief, but there are certain moments like these where they are the best actors in the show. In my opinion, the actors in heavy makeup/prosthetics are the best actors because they have to act through all of that makeup, and their characters usually have complex backstories since they are usually aliens. Rene Auberjonois was fantastic when he was heartbroken that Kira was with someone else. He was so limited by the mask, but he showed his emotions more than some of the humans. I think the actors in DS9 are better than some movie actors. This scene feels so much like a movie scene, from the stunts, to the cinematography to the music. I really felt like I was in a war movie. Everytime I watch a great episode I always watch one like this that becomes my new favorite.
HA I'd probably fight to destroy the Federation too. Quark: I want you to try something for me. Take a sip of this. Garak: What is it? Quark: A human drink. It's called root beer. Garak: [unwilling] Uh, I don't know... Quark: Come on, aren't you just a little bit curious? [Garak sighs, takes a sip and gags] Quark: What do you think? Garak: It's *vile*! Quark: I know. It's so bubbly, and cloying, and *happy*. Garak: Just like the Federation. Quark: But you know what's really frightening? If you drink enough of it, you begin to *like* it. Garak: It's insidious! Quark: *Just* like the Federation. The Federation still pushes its ideals on people. They just talk others into doing it than using obvious force.
@Gen. JFH it was nothing from our point of view. We are immortal. Our consciousnesses remain in shared hive mind. They merely damaged our drones and vessels. We are eternal, we are Borg.
I watched this episode years ago when it released when I was a little kid. It wasn't after I joined the Marines years later that I understood the weight behind it. It's now one of my most favorite Star Trek episodes because I understand the message behind it.
I don't know why they decided to make this episode, but I like that it feels as though they were trying to pay homage to everyone who has ever given their life in a war.
I watched this episode today and the concluding battle moved me to tears. For me it didn’t show war to be futile so much as it showed it to sometimes be the price for preserving our liberty and way of life. This was the federation battling for its survival in an existential war and Starfleet officers gave up their lives for that. It was a just war.
And the saddest. Watching Sisko looking at the casualty reports is just... sad. Kids watch movies about the good guys winning with blazes and cool guns. But the truth is war is not cool nor exciting. War is sad, depressing and horrible. Stay safe
@@Yaapo From Gene Roddenberry Andromeda Season 1 Episode 4 "D Minus Zero" "Here's everything I know about war: Somebody wins, somebody loses, and nothing is ever the same again."
well, even a modern M249 will have to cool down after a couple hundred rounds of constant firing, or change out it's barrels. That, or restrict yourself to about a few hundred rounds per minute instead, if I recall my info correctly.
Benedict Neoh Even so the sheer rate of fire totally demolishes a phaser so long as M249 can still kill I would rather have that although personal shields might be a problem if those were involved
GUMMRUCHK That's fair, assuming their armor doesn't protect them from projectile and so on. I've always wondered why they never hold down the trigger to fire a continuous beam instead. Nonetheless, it's still a fantastic scene, produced for dramatic effect.
Benedict Neoh The scene is awesome also they could probably make a projectile weapon in their time that is fair better than a M249 I never seen it in the TV shows but in the Star Trek Online game personal shields are a thing although I don't know if it's canon
Also would use a lot of energy, probably draining the phaser very quickly. That, aside from purely dramatic concerns, is one rationale for why they use short bursts -- conserve power for a long fight. Also probably why the phaser isn't used to its full destructive potential. Dead is dead, whether or not the corpse is disintegrated.
One of Quark’s greatest moments for sure, and along with Nog’s wound and the follow-on from that event in Paper Moon, arguably the cap stone on the monumental job DS9 did with the Ferengi. What a flex, to take one of the most questionable species designs in all of Trek and be like, “yeah we’re gonna make people cry for these weird little bastards”.
One of the most pointed scenes is Nog on that bed looking up at Sisko, practically begging him, "it's worth it, right sir?" All these people, hurt or killed on an asteroid so unimportant that it doesn't even have a name, just a designation, for a piece of comms equipment.
Fight and win or lose and die. Even in death victory is victory. If one man can stand at the end of the battle; then victory has been gained, no matter the loses.
Armin Shimerman, the Ferengi, and their relations with humans began a strange journey in the TNG misfire of The Last Outpost. Everytime i watch it i realize this is where that journey ends. With that said Rip Aron Eisenberg...
That grenade launcher that Kirk used in the Gorn episode would have been handy to have here. And I'm pretty sure that phasers have had a 'wide-beam' setting in earlier trek series which could blast everything in a wide arc.
DS9 has aged extremely well. Combat has never been good in Trek. The only exception I can think of off the top of my head is Balance of Terror in TOS, but that was a ship battle. Trek always had bad choreography in shootouts and melee. It's not what you watch Trek for, it is a weakness of the show, but not a crucial one.
By defending his nephew here, Quark became an equal with the crew. It's hard to look at him as comic relief after this episode. The Ascent was another good one along the same vein.
This is how I want to die, in a furious fire fight......not collecting social security checks and channel surfing, while waiting on cancer, dementia, Alzheimers, or a drunk driver. This episode was FUCKING AMAZING. I just sat there with my mouth open when I first saw this.
One of the biggest problems about Starfleet: ever since they started to become a non-military force, their field weaponry has become way less versatile. I loved them MACO teams on the Enterprise show. Too bad they were disbanded.
@@malikmohamed6051 I meant that they long stopped being very focused on military development and prioritized everything else. Starfleet officers are competent enough soldiers, but they're nowhere near the level of efficiency and equipment that the MACO teams used to have.
@@malikmohamed6051 As such, their weapons technology only barely keeps up with the other Powers. If the Federation allowed for more investment in the weapons department, I'm sure humans could create some very creative and practical weapons, including a machine gun of sorts (as the original comment suggested) for the kind of firefight we saw in this video.
I know the Quark scene is moving, but I cannot help but remember the fact that Quark has racked up a higher Jem'Hadar KDR (not counting ship combat) than half of the main cast. I think this is the third he's taken out. His Klingon ex needs to give him some more respect..
The thing I like about this episode is that it doesn't glorify war. In war, people die and they get maimed. The part with Quark is a good example. Quark is a petty criminal and a fraudster. He's not a murderer. When he kills a Jem'Hadar in combat you can tell that he isn't happy that he killed a sentient being.
I doubt that Star Trek was "dirtier" and more realistic concerning War as it was on this Episode. A downturner and it needed to be. -"Children" -"But Not for much lang anymore"
Some of them should have been using wide beam dispersion. Even if it didn't kill the jem'hadar, it would have slowed them down and mad them easier to pick off.
I’ve always wondered why star fleet never invited personal shields. The equivalent of modern day bulletproof vests. If star ships can fire with shields on, why can ground soldiers have personal shields and still fire onto advancing enemy troops?
Jesus Flores, I think they do have them. But given the story of this episode showing a battered force defending a outpost with little supplies I think it’s safe to say those would have been gone after a week or two.
Jesus Flores personal shields only exist in games as an in game mechanic for players. Same with armor. ( STO). in universe it doesn’t make sense since they don’t have a power supply for it that is portable. Im going try and not tear it all apart as many of my fellow vets already have. And also Gene Roddenberry was an idealistic fool with delusions of how the future would be all bright and chipper. That is not the nature of the world. Hell, orville did a better job. Being a little more realistic but still hoping for a brighter future. I think starfleet and the federation could still exist but just a little more realistically. Still explore but be ready to have a war on your hands. And keep their version of the Marines active for SHTF scenarios.
Very reminiscent of trench warfare in WW1. Basically getting mowed down until the soldiers reach the trench and it all devolves into hand to hand combat to the death
A sad reality that I don't think people want to accept is that... majority of soldiers, throughout time, have died unceremoniously and for nothing. Wouldn't it be nice if every death had meaning, but we are not so fortunate. I like it when stories don't dramatize the death of soldiers but just have it happen. Suddenly and trivially. Fucking sad.
They didn't even need phasers for this battle. Get a crack platoon of vietnam era solders with M16s and M60s and they could hold this line, no problem. The movie "Platoon" was far scarier than this.
If only Earth had at some point in its history invented a weapon that was capable of rapid and sustained fire that could deny areas to enemy combatants and inflict mass casualties on enemy troops in the open. That shit woulda been helpful here.
Or just kept the MACO teams around. Their gear and tactics would've more then compensated. But no. The Federation is a demilitarized organization. That's why their field weaponry went down the shaft. It's funny when you think the hilarious troops from the first Starship Troopers movie would've been more efficient here.
Not a bad plan by the Jem'Hadar. Sending in your assault element to overwhelm the defense while another element stays back for suppression. Countered by a layered defense and good discipline where the security officers go right back to the firing line if they're able to dispatch their individual attackers. A bit basic, but Trek was always more about the ships.
the worst part of this episode is it REALLY shows that while the Starfleet are doing badly enough at this stage few examples of solid wins that come at a very high price, the ground forces as usual are the last on the budget. They totally under-equipped as the Federation NEVER EVER bothered to think about worst case or "just in case" scenarios despite what happened with the Borg showing how short sighted that was. so you got a bunch of red shirts with nothing but their uniforms and pure adrenaline to keep them going with equipment and weapons that is at best laughable under the circumstances. I MEAN is a SINGLE SHOT phaser really the best Starfleet could give these guys?? not even a simple vest to protect against knifes etc? no grenades, no shield generators, no burst fire or automatic weapons, no Melee weapons except that one dude and that a Jem'Hadar knife he took. no Worf Bazookas. Its honestly really sad and we see the EXACT SAME THING repeated over and over in history.
I've always found it comedic how much star trek technology is never used creatively. If I was fighting on this planet against ground troops: 1) Keep a starship in orbit for bombardment 2) Use transporters to teleport all the jem hadar into orbit 3) Use a hand phaser set to wide beam max yield to kill every jem hadar in 1 second 4) Use holograms to fight the battle 5) Never send ANYONE on the ground and just photon torpedo the planet from orbit until the enemy is all glass. Funny how a little bit of logic undoes the drama in this show.
+Thomas G they used the houdini mines against the jem hadar, to decent effect. Remember they were stuck on a planet with minimum supplies, almost no engineer or medical support, and over half the team had already been killed in constant combat. Even Worf said they couldnt use transporters because they fell under attack, which is how sisko was stuck there in the first place.
+Thomas G When you are fighting an ever expanding war across the alpha quadrant you are not going to have enough ships and other resources to fight every battle at full efficiency also I don't know if it is ever mentioned anywhere in Star Trek but I would be anything that most of the races have some sort of jamming device to prevents their enemies from simply beaming them where ever they want I mean if you could just beam your enemies into space I am 100% sure someone would have by now and we already know shields on ships prevent beaming more likely there are devices to prevent it kind like how we have radio jamming in our time
Go and actually watch the episode and you'll see the every point you made is not feasible (They don't talk about 3, but the catch is if you used a wide beam with max yield, the phaser would probably burn out in less than 5 seconds - the power drain would be enormous, and there were WAY too many Jem'Hadar for that to be a workable plan)
Its funny when the war broke out we saw the use of more warship type ships used the fact that they didnt bring back the MACOs is surprising especially when they knew there would be drawn out ground battles like this
There are references to other ground engagements, but holding a fixed position against starships with the ability to bombard you, while also being capable of beaming armsmen basically anywhere on a planet is almost hopeless. This was a unique case where Starfleet was defending a captured enemy asset, so they had to stay. Trek is very much focused on ship to ship combat, because without control of space the rest is basically irrelevant.
@@TheNerdForAllSeasons i know, i know. I was only slightly sarcastic. I realized that the script can't resolve all the logical problems. There isn't enough money or time!
I don't know about machine guns versus phasers seeing as there's no such thing as a phaser so there's no way to know about how effective it would be, but basic land mines, claymores, and any other kind of anti-personnel weapons that go boom and can clear out an area rather than targeting an individual would be preferable. Simple hand grenades or a grenade launcher are something else that wouldn't point back at the person who just used it. I vaguely remember this episode. Overall it was pretty good, but considering the Trek universe takes place a few centuries in the future the way they imagine soldiers fighting future conflicts is pretty unimaginative.
It‘s baffeling to my mind that the old earth MACOs were disbanded. Starfleet desperately needs marines. Imagine the MACOs from Enterprise fighting the Jem Hadar. That would have been very interesting and the battle potentially would have gone very differently.
They supposedly stationed 150ish officers here, Not a single heavy rapid fire weapons platform, Artillery, Or even decent barricades. They've got replicators, And no one thought to make a few dozen grenades?
5 months of fighting has brought their numbers down to 47 out of 150. I'm guessing that spacefaring civilizations tend to go towards more for Orbital weapon platforms. Replicators had limits to their functionality. If the object desired contained a certain degree of complexity in its molecular structure, it could not be replicated. So I'm guessing that they only had food replicators.
Many plain elements are volatile and can be found in food, like sodium. That in its pure form when in contact with water will explode, to name one of a thousand ways to make a dirty bomb out of a replicator. Likely many reasons why military application wasn't in the programming, But you'd think an all out war would get them some updates. Maybe they don't work because of dominion dampening fields, maybe all the ammo for heavier ordinance was used up along with any explosives. But I still feel a space faring human race should have had something better than a skirmish line of rifles.
This is a powerful episode for its moral message. Still, tactics are very unrealistic: a second world war squad should be much better suited than the Federal Officers for this cherish.
It's funny how in modern space warfare you still need a good ole in your face action > most high complex Aliens would or should just make the opposition disappear > kinda reminds me of Minbari wiping out the Earth force in like 30 seconds with the Sharlin class battle cruisers > Superior species should be light years advanced in terms of warfare in my opinion
The only "superior" species in terms of tech that shows up regularly is the Borg, as evidenced by the fact that the only time they don't just shrug off whole fleets is when they've been neutered by the shitty writing on Voyager. Everyone else is on a fairly even playing field give or take (ie, as far as the Alpha Quadrant, prior to the war it generally took 2 Warbirds or 3 Galors or Marauders to take on one Galaxy Class in an even fight if everything was working right. The Jem'Hadar went 3-on-1 against the USS Odyssey and won only due to kamikaze tactics. By the time of the Dominion War you had ships like the Negh'var class, Defiant class, Akira class, Steamrunner class and Sovereign class which were all able to bring far more firepower to bear than the Galaxy class was ever capable of. And those ships STILL got a solid rogering from a single Borg Cube). Sometimes one side would get a technological advantage (ie, when the Breen entered the war and their weapons decimated the Defiant easily) but as soon as a countermeasure is developed it's back on an even footing (also keeping in mind that the Alpha Quadrant races managed to take out the Jem'Hadar breeding facilities and Ketracel White manufacturing facilities in the Alpha Quadrant, and Sisko had convinced the Prophets to stop any Dominion reinforcements coming through the wormhole straight onto DS9's doorstep, so the Dominion weren't able to bring their crushing numbers to bear.
@@Hudson316 Yeah, that's something we tend to forget in Star Trek: nearly everyone is on the same technological level, more or less. I mean, the Dominion have some obviously more advanced stuff, but nothing the Federation, the Klingons and the Romulans can't find a way around. Meanwhile, the Borg and Species 8472 are legitimate threats whose technology and power are beyond the usual civilizations' reach. Wars against the Dominion, advancements in technology, new classes of starships... And they still were no match for ONE Borg Cube. Even the Defiant, who was specifically built to fight the Borg, could barely make a difference. If Picard hadn't showed up, the whole fleet and Earth would've been decimated.
Ummmmmmm why aren’t the Titan crew armed?? They lured the Changlings there with the intention of them coming aboard. Wouldn’t it make sense to have EVERYONE armed just in case shit goes sideways like it has now?
" their not just names" sicko Hes right all the names we see on war memorials. Those people had family friends lives. They gave up those lives so we can continue to live. Spend some time with some of the veterans of war. They will appreciate it even if they dont say it.
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Though honestly, I think Quark's quickdraw and point blank shooting of a Jem'hadar soldier is probably the best choreographed and most pointed statement that survival and protection of loved ones can very well override any philosophy of co-operative economic and social accord. I mean only 10 minutes after espousing the Ferengi culture of negotiation and trade, and then suddenly he realises he is not much different than the humanity he describes to Nog.
Honestly, ANY living creature that has loved ones will go become like that should their loved ones be put in peril. It takes a really harsh level of brainwashing like the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta to not act like that.
Even the Ferengi put weapons on their ships. Nothing was overriden. I'm sure Quark would still hold to what he said previously. Just in that moment, the time of negotiation and trading was over.
I think it's more about experience.
He's espousing negotiation because he knows what killing someone is. He's had experience taking life, and he knows how that haunts you for the rest of your life.
His perspective is simple. This is all stupid. War sucks... It's murder, and people, good people, die for the stupidest of reasons. It's all better if you sit down, and talk.
But no one ever listens. That's what war is, and he knows it. So he kills, again... Just to see the next morning.
Seriously... War sucks. It's vicious, gross, and terrifying. You really don't know true cruelty until you've been apart of such a hell.
@@johnkonrad5040 true
I had to go back and watch it again, it hits so hard
What people forget is that several times in the series they hint at just how acute ferengi hearing is. Quark heard the entire battle, every shot, stab, grunt, and sizzle. That Jem'Hadar never had a chance, he literally heard him coming the entire time.
One thing that should also been taken into consideration: the horror Quark is experiencing by just hearing all the chaos.
He can identify exactly what is happening with every little sound his ears are capturing. Every single situation. Just imagine being there, listening and then picturing in your mind all those horrors happening just a few ways from you.
Couple that with Nog having lost his leg and this was probably the worst day in Quark's life.
@@MrDibara oh man you guys are gonna make me cry
You forget quarks seen and heard worse doing the occupation and before he served on a ferengi ship meaning hes probably fought before and knows what it's like to kill.
@@marcusisgod2592 he is the only known Ferengi to own a gun, at least until we meet Brunt and Gala.
And, it was established in the first season of T.N.G. that Ferengi are stronger than they look. Plus, they're smaller targets. Give him some training and armor, and, he could be QUITE dangerous on a battlefield like that one.
Armin Shimerman is hauntingly powerful in this scene, without a single word of dialogue.
He is so damn underrated! Generally the Ferengi are the comic relief, but there are certain moments like these when Quark, Rom or Nog are FANTASTIC in a serious situation. It's moments like these when I think TV actors are better than some movie actors. The actors that have to act through all of those prosthetics especially are amazing at portraying emotion. There is one episode where Kira is in love with Shakar, and Odo's heart is in pieces. Rene Auberjonois did an AMAZING job of portraying utter heartbreak through the mask.
Perfectly said
And this is when he was a recurring on Buffy. The man is talent.
Honestly my favorite part of the episode was when Worf tells Sisko "This was a great victory...one worthy of story...and song." You can practically feel the awe Worf feels for what Sisko and the rest of the troops have accomplished.
Had worf gone on that mission he would have died
"Captain... The communications array... it's worth it, right?"
"I hope to God it is"
That hurts me more than anything. Not just here in fiction. But really. Was it worth it! Fuck was it?
the worst part is we never found out if it was worth it....
@@JeanLucCaptain IIRC, Starfleet pulled out of that sector not soon afterwards.
@@bentenchoYeah, soon afterwards the Breen would deal a devastating defeat on the Federation Alliance. It is doubtful they had time to evacuate the soldiers stationed here.
An extremely epic depiction of warfare in a fictional setting,yet is still realistic concerning the horrors of war.I saw this episode during the original run of STDS9.This was one of the few episodes that had a strong impact on me.I still think about this particular episode till this very day.I've always studied about different wars throughout history.Unfortunately,there are certain situations that force you to do whatever needs to be done to protect yourself as well as those you hold dear.I have never wanted to join the military,but I'm very quick to inflict harm upon someone who intends to harm me.Better them & not me.
Given that the Director Winrich Kolbe served in the Viet Nam War, I can only imagine how that influenced him in the depiction of the hellish ground war we're shown.
I looked at this episode in a very different light after I came home from Iraq!
My favorite part of this scene was Quark defending Nog.
TehZee ... My favorite part was the music... It matched the emotion of the episode and the scene perfectly...
The way the scene was shot and the music made me think I was watching a war movie
@@sarahkinsey5434 this particular episode was directed by a Vietnam veteran.
toadofsteel really? That’s totally awesome!
@@toadofsteel or at least someone who knew they might not be around tomorrow.
Probably the most brutal battle shown in Star Trek history.
and the most realistic.
boots on the ground battles are often very bloody, historical examples include the egyptian siege of alexender by julius ceaser, the D-Day invasion, and the entire vetinam war.
isn't that kind of like iwo jima?
@@karlhelm875 yeah sort of. Both involved a lot of casualties by the attackers just rushing in.
@Samar3n to note, the D-Day invasion consisted of many allies, including British, Australian, and other allies, not just the united states.
the only "US" centristic historical example is the entire Vietnam war.
the Egyptian siege of alexander by Julius Ceaser happened long before the americas was even found, let alone anyone even thinking of making a nation in the americas back then.
This new 'Picard' promo just tops it th-cam.com/video/HcuT-aojRPY/w-d-xo.html
We held
Those were our orders sir...
Wow always sends a chill down my spine. I loved this episode.
Ranks right up there with "hold until relieved", from the movie the longest day, as well as "we're here, nobody else" from the movie Zulu.
@@johngraesser4911 yes, absolutely agree
THEY SHALL COME NO FURTHER IT WAS SAID THEY SHALL NOT PASS!
SIEGE OF AR-558, DIE ONE BY ONE FATHER AND SUN UNDER THE GUN.
Sisko: *hands Quark a phaser(?)*
Quark: Sir, I - I'm a non combatant, sir.
Sisko: Ain't no such thing today boy.
*>shoots Jem'Hadar
"You got a warface Quark?"
2:38 Yes!
@@DrownedInExile You don't scare me, work on it!
We Were Soldiers?
The fact Quark....QUARK actually fired a weapon, and killed someone speaks volumes. But he did it for a good reason.
Cardboard Sliver he also did it saving Rom in the episode “Sacrifice of Angels!
It shows that noone is safe from this war and everyone is in some way
Quark wanted to do that in Way of the Warrior when the Klingons attacked the station, only to find Rom had used parts of his disruptor to fix the replicator 😆
The episode was amazing, a true homage to movies like Platoon as well as a tribute to real life soldiers who hold the line in the constant conflicts.
The music used in this episode was very powerful, it's a shame it can't be found for download. Truly fitting and very powerful when considering the tone of the episode it was used in.
Luckily, the backing soundtrack has since been uploaded: th-cam.com/video/qmSDjH8lta4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=_t2gygT9IT6UNqhb
"This was a great victory. Worthy of story and song."
"It cost enough"
ff3player, Tell that to the dead that believed in meeting new life not killing it.
ff3player
"Aye... but the dead won't hear them."
Ironic when you consider the one character who would have relished getting down and dirty like this was stuck on the defiant the whole time
Too bad Starfleet disbanded MACO in an effort to "demilitarize" themselves; a few marines would have been an invaluable asset here.
Starfleet didn't disband MACO. United Earth did. MACO was not a Starfleet operation and outside the authority there of.
Yeah MACO in this situation would have probably extremely effective and probably would have trained to combat the Jemharr better then most
@@antanybaines2747 I disagree... even though it might give a slight advantage... it would still be a bloody battle on both sides of the fight... Jem'hadar are trained from birth for only one thing, combat. they have no sense of retreat unless a Vorta were to order it.
Starfleet has something in space but what about on the ground? Imagine giving some scientist a gun and telling him to fight a bunch of aliens and-
Im just talking about half life right?
"I feel sorry for the Jem'hadar." - Ensign Nog
1:24.....Reese flips out.
Interesting in this episode, we see the toll constant fighting has taken on the men. The contrast between Reese and Vargas. Vargas is always on edge, twitchy. Wound up like a spring ready to snap, and he ultimately dies. Reese by comparison is sombre and moody. Composed and in control when he's not fighting, carrying ketrocel white tubes and a stolen Jem'Hadar trophy knife with him in battle. He becomes a whirlwind of human rage in combat which he lets loose on the Jem'Hadar, and ultimately survives. Leaving his knife behind in the dirt.
I just found that interesting. How war can ruin some men the way it did with Vargas, and Reese......who in a strange way is almost at home with it. I don't deny he may suffer from PTSD later on perhaps, but its interesting how he was alot more composed and calm in contrast to Vargas.
@Luis Garcia I can only hope those guys actually know what they're doing with Star Trek: Picard. I already don't like where the character starts off, it seems to deviate a lot from where we last saw him. But then again, this _is_ after Romulus' destruction, so maybe events after that may have crushed him. We will see, I really HOPE the series turns out good, but I'm staying skeptical.
@Luis Garcia Well, an entire major planet like Romulus blowing up surely would affect the Federation a lot. And in universe, we could remember this is also post-Dominion war, so the Federation might've finally decided to take up a few more militaristic approaches to keep other similar and unknown threats in check.
I don't know if we will really see "the future as not as idylical as before", but I do think we'll see the Federation on one of its worse times and the main theme might be to "take back paradise", so to speak. Recover that utopia that the Federation used to be and that conflicts such as the ones seen in DS9 sacrificed so many lives to protect.
I'm not really bothering with all the haters saying "this isn't TNG anymore" and stuff, I watched a video talking about ST: Picard and while the guy raised _some_ good points, his overall speech was just unbearable. It was more filled with frustration and anger then with an analytical perception of the thing.
I'm really fine if they try new stuff, as long as they do it good and still manage to keep some core elements.
For instance, tougher times or not, the Federation striving to be a futuristic utopia _is_ one of the main cores of the Star Trek series as a whole, so while they may show a darker side to the whole thing, I would still like to see them (the characters and that world itself) trying to go back, to retrieve that former glory they used to have.
I think that would be an interesting theme to play around: the fall from grace and the rising up to get back to it again.
Just my thoughts on it.
Regardless, there are many directors who have missed the mark a lot when directing a new show and I'm just afraid that Star Trek: Picard will be one more of those cases.
I really hope it doesn't, but I'd rather be prepared for the worst.
As a vet of various conflicts, NO soldier loves combat. Fighting is part of the oath we take as we join. Everyone reacts in different ways, some good, some bad, how we handle it defines the soldier. Pray for PEACE……….
Armin Shimerman deserves an Oscar for this! The Ferengi generally are the comic relief, but there are certain moments like these where they are the best actors in the show. In my opinion, the actors in heavy makeup/prosthetics are the best actors because they have to act through all of that makeup, and their characters usually have complex backstories since they are usually aliens. Rene Auberjonois was fantastic when he was heartbroken that Kira was with someone else. He was so limited by the mask, but he showed his emotions more than some of the humans. I think the actors in DS9 are better than some movie actors.
This scene feels so much like a movie scene, from the stunts, to the cinematography to the music. I really felt like I was in a war movie. Everytime I watch a great episode I always watch one like this that becomes my new favorite.
Emmy. Oscars are for movies.
If I were to die in battle, I pray it would be for a cause as worthy as the preservation of the Federation.
And now ‘Picard’ craps all over it.
Angel Mcfadden, Picard is not canon it’s just a extended look at Blue shirt Picard’s life.
HA I'd probably fight to destroy the Federation too.
Quark: I want you to try something for me. Take a sip of this.
Garak: What is it?
Quark: A human drink. It's called root beer.
Garak: [unwilling] Uh, I don't know...
Quark: Come on, aren't you just a little bit curious? [Garak sighs, takes a sip and gags]
Quark: What do you think?
Garak: It's *vile*!
Quark: I know. It's so bubbly, and cloying, and *happy*.
Garak: Just like the Federation.
Quark: But you know what's really frightening? If you drink enough of it, you begin to *like* it.
Garak: It's insidious!
Quark: *Just* like the Federation.
The Federation still pushes its ideals on people. They just talk others into doing it than using obvious force.
If I were to die in a battle, I hope it would be to assimilate worthy species to our collective.
Resistance is futile.
@Gen. JFH it was nothing from our point of view. We are immortal. Our consciousnesses remain in shared hive mind. They merely damaged our drones and vessels. We are eternal, we are Borg.
I watched this episode years ago when it released when I was a little kid. It wasn't after I joined the Marines years later that I understood the weight behind it. It's now one of my most favorite Star Trek episodes because I understand the message behind it.
Only those who have served know that.
I don't know why they decided to make this episode, but I like that it feels as though they were trying to pay homage to everyone who has ever given their life in a war.
War is hell.
I like how both the action scenes and the music soundtrack, is both heroic and sad at the same time.
War isn't Hell. War is War and Hell is Hell, and of the two War is worse. There are no innocent people in Hell.
From Allen Alda in M.A.S.H. correct?
Aaron Wolf Correct.
“They’re not just names. It’s important we remember that. We HAVE to remember.”
That line always just gives me the chills.
That is why I love Star Trek DS9, it doesn’t hide the horrors of war, it shows the futility of war and violence
It also adds layers to what was a one-dimensional depiction of a utopian future prior to DS9
Over 1700 casualties in this episode.
I watched this episode today and the concluding battle moved me to tears. For me it didn’t show war to be futile so much as it showed it to sometimes be the price for preserving our liberty and way of life. This was the federation battling for its survival in an existential war and Starfleet officers gave up their lives for that. It was a just war.
One of the best episodes of ANY Star Trek TV series. Siege at AR-558.
And the saddest. Watching Sisko looking at the casualty reports is just... sad. Kids watch movies about the good guys winning with blazes and cool guns. But the truth is war is not cool nor exciting. War is sad, depressing and horrible.
Stay safe
@@Yaapo From Gene Roddenberry Andromeda Season 1 Episode 4 "D Minus Zero"
"Here's everything I know about war: Somebody wins, somebody loses, and nothing is ever the same again."
I'm not entirely convinced that I wouldn't rather have a machine gun or some gun from our time rather than a phaser
well, even a modern M249 will have to cool down after a couple hundred rounds of constant firing, or change out it's barrels. That, or restrict yourself to about a few hundred rounds per minute instead, if I recall my info correctly.
Benedict Neoh Even so the sheer rate of fire totally demolishes a phaser so long as M249 can still kill I would rather have that although personal shields might be a problem if those were involved
GUMMRUCHK That's fair, assuming their armor doesn't protect them from projectile and so on. I've always wondered why they never hold down the trigger to fire a continuous beam instead.
Nonetheless, it's still a fantastic scene, produced for dramatic effect.
Benedict Neoh The scene is awesome also they could probably make a projectile weapon in their time that is fair better than a M249 I never seen it in the TV shows but in the Star Trek Online game personal shields are a thing although I don't know if it's canon
As the saying goes - Tracers work both ways.
"I'm setting this (phaser) to Level 16, wide field...that should destroy half this building..."
-Commander William Riker
Bluff.
Inconsistent writing: A common enough fixture in Star Trek.
I'm pretty sure it was not hand held but even if is go ask daystrom institute on reddit.
Jon Lyons, I’m pretty sure that would be against the laws of war we humans keep using to give ourself the moral high ground.
Also would use a lot of energy, probably draining the phaser very quickly. That, aside from purely dramatic concerns, is one rationale for why they use short bursts -- conserve power for a long fight. Also probably why the phaser isn't used to its full destructive potential. Dead is dead, whether or not the corpse is disintegrated.
This was directed by Winrich Kolbe, who had served in Vietnam as a forward observer and was at Dak To.
One of Quark’s greatest moments for sure, and along with Nog’s wound and the follow-on from that event in Paper Moon, arguably the cap stone on the monumental job DS9 did with the Ferengi. What a flex, to take one of the most questionable species designs in all of Trek and be like, “yeah we’re gonna make people cry for these weird little bastards”.
When I watch Star Trek, I forget that they are just actors in a studio.
One of the most pointed scenes is Nog on that bed looking up at Sisko, practically begging him, "it's worth it, right sir?" All these people, hurt or killed on an asteroid so unimportant that it doesn't even have a name, just a designation, for a piece of comms equipment.
Saw the episode last night and the music is so fitting
Fight and win or lose and die.
Even in death victory is victory. If one man can stand at the end of the battle; then victory has been gained, no matter the loses.
um...NO that refereed to as a Pyrhic victory. it means a victory gained as such cost it may as well have been defeat.
Remember all lost in real life. They gave their all for all of us
Quark the slayer of the galaxies fiercest warriors.
Joking aside when backed into a corner Quark can take care of himself and isn't a coward.
Quark is a savage gun slinger. In this and that episode when he shot the dominion guard in the hole cell.
Armin Shimerman, the Ferengi, and their relations with humans began a strange journey in the TNG misfire of The Last Outpost. Everytime i watch it i realize this is where that journey ends. With that said Rip Aron Eisenberg...
this episode embodies as much reality as possible concerning war.
One of the best fictional battles ever.
That grenade launcher that Kirk used in the Gorn episode would have been handy to have here. And I'm pretty sure that phasers have had a 'wide-beam' setting in earlier trek series which could blast everything in a wide arc.
Too much power would be drained, especially for that long of a fight
The fight wouldn't be long if they wiped out all the Jem'Hadar with a few shots.
Yes the phase 1 did used it to stun a whole room in one episode. in a TOS.
Still need a good story where people can be heroic from time to time.
The technology in Star Trek would render trench warfare obsolete but Star Trek was never going to pas a reality check anyway.
DS9 has not aged well.
DS9 has aged extremely well. Combat has never been good in Trek. The only exception I can think of off the top of my head is Balance of Terror in TOS, but that was a ship battle. Trek always had bad choreography in shootouts and melee. It's not what you watch Trek for, it is a weakness of the show, but not a crucial one.
By defending his nephew here, Quark became an equal with the crew.
It's hard to look at him as comic relief after this episode.
The Ascent was another good one along the same vein.
This is how I want to die, in a furious fire fight......not collecting social security checks and channel surfing, while waiting on cancer, dementia, Alzheimers, or a drunk driver. This episode was FUCKING AMAZING. I just sat there with my mouth open when I first saw this.
a few machine gun nests woulda taken care of those jem 'hadar.... but then again we would not have had a good episode
One of the biggest problems about Starfleet: ever since they started to become a non-military force, their field weaponry has become way less versatile. I loved them MACO teams on the Enterprise show. Too bad they were disbanded.
Replicate a few mg42s and a good amount of ammo belts and problem solved. And if you want your jem'hadr extra chunky throw in a few m2 brownings lol
What is it that the Hirogen say about the Jem 'Hadar - "truly they are worthy prey."
+Oscar Banuelos The Jem'Hadar were never even MENTIONED in Voyager. Prove me wrong.
+Foebane72 I think you are right but It would be pretty cool to see those two fight
Foebane72 The Hirogen encountered the Jem'Hadar in "Demons of Air and Darkness" a DS-9 Gateway novel.
Oscar Banuelos How'd it go?
Oscar Banuelos
The Trek novels don't count, they are NOT canon.
So, I am watching this firefight and all I can think is.....The Federation needs some machine guns. No, I am not trying to be funny....
Demilitarization. If only the MACO teams were still around...
@@MrDibara in what way are they demilitarized??? Star fleet officers are just not only soldiers because there is not that much war.
@@malikmohamed6051 I meant that they long stopped being very focused on military development and prioritized everything else.
Starfleet officers are competent enough soldiers, but they're nowhere near the level of efficiency and equipment that the MACO teams used to have.
@@malikmohamed6051 As such, their weapons technology only barely keeps up with the other Powers. If the Federation allowed for more investment in the weapons department, I'm sure humans could create some very creative and practical weapons, including a machine gun of sorts (as the original comment suggested) for the kind of firefight we saw in this video.
@@MrDibara I guess you are right. And apparently the Federation hat the means to produce projectile weapons as seen in the TR-116.
Should have been a movie.
I know the Quark scene is moving, but I cannot help but remember the fact that Quark has racked up a higher Jem'Hadar KDR (not counting ship combat) than half of the main cast. I think this is the third he's taken out. His Klingon ex needs to give him some more respect..
The thing I like about this episode is that it doesn't glorify war. In war, people die and they get maimed. The part with Quark is a good example. Quark is a petty criminal and a fraudster. He's not a murderer. When he kills a Jem'Hadar in combat you can tell that he isn't happy that he killed a sentient being.
And not a Founder in sight. It's easy to start wars you'll never fight yourself.
I doubt that Star Trek was "dirtier" and more realistic concerning War as it was on this Episode. A downturner and it needed to be.
-"Children"
-"But Not for much lang anymore"
Children.
That 1 word had so much meaning and emotion.
Quark killed that Jem Ha'dar to protect his nephew.
Some of them should have been using wide beam dispersion. Even if it didn't kill the jem'hadar, it would have slowed them down and mad them easier to pick off.
Bear in mind they had been holed up there for around half a year with little to no resupply.
Just imagine how much bloodier that battle would have been without the reprogrammed houdini mines in place.
"I'LL NE PASSARON PAS!" Marshal Vichy at the start of the Battle of Verdun.
365 days of slaughter later THEY HAD HELD.
I love that they did not shy away from the brutal truth of war- they are not just names
3:19 Sisco gets up. Just can't get away from the uniform adjustments.
I always wondered how it would be if the Kilingons were sent there and do hand to hand combat, there would be glory and songs to tell..
This was *Star Trek*
3:05 I never thought the sandman could sound so calming and comforting.
I’ve always wondered why star fleet never invited personal shields. The equivalent of modern day bulletproof vests. If star ships can fire with shields on, why can ground soldiers have personal shields and still fire onto advancing enemy troops?
Jesus Flores, I think they do have them. But given the story of this episode showing a battered force defending a outpost with little supplies I think it’s safe to say those would have been gone after a week or two.
Jesus Flores personal shields only exist in games as an in game mechanic for players. Same with armor. ( STO). in universe it doesn’t make sense since they don’t have a power supply for it that is portable. Im going try and not tear it all apart as many of my fellow vets already have. And also Gene Roddenberry was an idealistic fool with delusions of how the future would be all bright and chipper. That is not the nature of the world. Hell, orville did a better job. Being a little more realistic but still hoping for a brighter future. I think starfleet and the federation could still exist but just a little more realistically. Still explore but be ready to have a war on your hands. And keep their version of the Marines active for SHTF scenarios.
@@Rikimaru0523 "We have stockpiles of phaser rifles, *personal shields,* photon grenades..."
-Admiral Leyton: DS9 Homefront.
@@Rikimaru0523 tell that to the Borg...
Even as a kid, I was frustrated by the Federation's complete lack of combat equipment for their people. It still bugs me.
When they arrived there was 150 troops but 5 months of fighting drained their resources
@@ff3player How do you get to the point you're running around in dress uniforms?
And where the fuck are the defensive works?
Very reminiscent of trench warfare in WW1. Basically getting mowed down until the soldiers reach the trench and it all devolves into hand to hand combat to the death
No matter how much tech you have.Always ground troops win the battle.People.
A sad reality that I don't think people want to accept is that... majority of soldiers, throughout time, have died unceremoniously and for nothing. Wouldn't it be nice if every death had meaning, but we are not so fortunate.
I like it when stories don't dramatize the death of soldiers but just have it happen. Suddenly and trivially.
Fucking sad.
They didn't even need phasers for this battle. Get a crack platoon of vietnam era solders with M16s and M60s and they could hold this line, no problem. The movie "Platoon" was far scarier than this.
Platoon was meant to be, and consider that wasn't limited in it's presentation of course it would be scarier
Yes, it is presentation was good.
The VC and NVA were nothing compared to the Je'm Hadar
If only Earth had at some point in its history invented a weapon that was capable of rapid and sustained fire that could deny areas to enemy combatants and inflict mass casualties on enemy troops in the open.
That shit woulda been helpful here.
Or just kept the MACO teams around. Their gear and tactics would've more then compensated.
But no. The Federation is a demilitarized organization. That's why their field weaponry went down the shaft.
It's funny when you think the hilarious troops from the first Starship Troopers movie would've been more efficient here.
Heck, phasers are already capable of sustained fire, but for some reason people always insist on a single burst at a single target.
You think they wouldn't have run out of ammo in 5 months of constant battles?
Somebody saved Sisko and you never find out who
Quark heard the enemy soldier come and killed him before he could Nog and himself.
Not a bad plan by the Jem'Hadar. Sending in your assault element to overwhelm the defense while another element stays back for suppression. Countered by a layered defense and good discipline where the security officers go right back to the firing line if they're able to dispatch their individual attackers.
A bit basic, but Trek was always more about the ships.
the worst part of this episode is it REALLY shows that while the Starfleet are doing badly enough at this stage few examples of solid wins that come at a very high price, the ground forces as usual are the last on the budget. They totally under-equipped as the Federation NEVER EVER bothered to think about worst case or "just in case" scenarios despite what happened with the Borg showing how short sighted that was. so you got a bunch of red shirts with nothing but their uniforms and pure adrenaline to keep them going with equipment and weapons that is at best laughable under the circumstances. I MEAN is a SINGLE SHOT phaser really the best Starfleet could give these guys?? not even a simple vest to protect against knifes etc? no grenades, no shield generators, no burst fire or automatic weapons, no Melee weapons except that one dude and that a Jem'Hadar knife he took. no Worf Bazookas. Its honestly really sad and we see the EXACT SAME THING repeated over and over in history.
gosh, they should have sent a company of of Klingons to do hand to hand combat is this episode...whould have been great..
If anyone is wondering the music is War Adagio
Too many people are forgetting.
R. I. P. Nog
I've always found it comedic how much star trek technology is never used creatively. If I was fighting on this planet against ground troops:
1) Keep a starship in orbit for bombardment 2) Use transporters to teleport all the jem hadar into orbit 3) Use a hand phaser set to wide beam max yield to kill every jem hadar in 1 second 4) Use holograms to fight the battle 5) Never send ANYONE on the ground and just photon torpedo the planet from orbit until the enemy is all glass.
Funny how a little bit of logic undoes the drama in this show.
+Thomas G the only good point here is number 3.
+Thomas G they used the houdini mines against the jem hadar, to decent effect. Remember they were stuck on a planet with minimum supplies, almost no engineer or medical support, and over half the team had already been killed in constant combat.
Even Worf said they couldnt use transporters because they fell under attack, which is how sisko was stuck there in the first place.
+Thomas G When you are fighting an ever expanding war across the alpha quadrant you are not going to have enough ships and other resources to fight every battle at full efficiency also I don't know if it is ever mentioned anywhere in Star Trek but I would be anything that most of the races have some sort of jamming device to prevents their enemies from simply beaming them where ever they want I mean if you could just beam your enemies into space I am 100% sure someone would have by now and we already know shields on ships prevent beaming more likely there are devices to prevent it kind like how we have radio jamming in our time
Go and actually watch the episode and you'll see the every point you made is not feasible
(They don't talk about 3, but the catch is if you used a wide beam with max yield, the phaser would probably burn out in less than 5 seconds - the power drain would be enormous, and there were WAY too many Jem'Hadar for that to be a workable plan)
Smeggy Ben None of the points he made hold up at all lol.
Its funny when the war broke out we saw the use of more warship type ships used the fact that they didnt bring back the MACOs is surprising especially when they knew there would be drawn out ground battles like this
Lol I search the internet for an answer to the question "is there any infantry in Star Trek" and this is the best result that i got?
There are references to other ground engagements, but holding a fixed position against starships with the ability to bombard you, while also being capable of beaming armsmen basically anywhere on a planet is almost hopeless. This was a unique case where Starfleet was defending a captured enemy asset, so they had to stay.
Trek is very much focused on ship to ship combat, because without control of space the rest is basically irrelevant.
@@TheNerdForAllSeasons i know, i know. I was only slightly sarcastic. I realized that the script can't resolve all the logical problems. There isn't enough money or time!
@@alexiachimciuc3199 eh, it's a fair complaint and not uncommon.
The old man she held her own.
This video wants me to have a sizure.
The enemy came at them hard but they still held the line.
Quark! You got a warface?
2:38 Yes.
I don't know about machine guns versus phasers seeing as there's no such thing as a phaser so there's no way to know about how effective it would be, but basic land mines, claymores, and any other kind of anti-personnel weapons that go boom and can clear out an area rather than targeting an individual would be preferable. Simple hand grenades or a grenade launcher are something else that wouldn't point back at the person who just used it. I vaguely remember this episode. Overall it was pretty good, but considering the Trek universe takes place a few centuries in the future the way they imagine soldiers fighting future conflicts is pretty unimaginative.
Well they did use mines.
One case of claymores would have made this a lot simpler...
Comicsluvr what do you think the Houdini mines were?
You gonna make a case of claymores last for 5 months?
Danger Will Robinson Danger!
It‘s baffeling to my mind that the old earth MACOs were disbanded. Starfleet desperately needs marines.
Imagine the MACOs from Enterprise fighting the Jem Hadar. That would have been very interesting and the battle potentially would have gone very differently.
This is Black Friday in many shops.
They supposedly stationed 150ish officers here, Not a single heavy rapid fire weapons platform, Artillery, Or even decent barricades. They've got replicators, And no one thought to make a few dozen grenades?
5 months of fighting has brought their numbers down to 47 out of 150. I'm guessing that spacefaring civilizations tend to go towards more for Orbital weapon platforms. Replicators had limits to their functionality. If the object desired contained a certain degree of complexity in its molecular structure, it could not be replicated. So I'm guessing that they only had food replicators.
Many plain elements are volatile and can be found in food, like sodium. That in its pure form when in contact with water will explode, to name one of a thousand ways to make a dirty bomb out of a replicator. Likely many reasons why military application wasn't in the programming, But you'd think an all out war would get them some updates.
Maybe they don't work because of dominion dampening fields, maybe all the ammo for heavier ordinance was used up along with any explosives. But I still feel a space faring human race should have had something better than a skirmish line of rifles.
man starfleet would have a MUCH easier time if they had some marines.
It is a poignant episode not only for the series but about human endurance and tenacity and the cost in life even in a justified war.,
To absent friends 🥂: Lennier in the Star Trek universe
In memory, still bright. #babylon5always
This is a powerful episode for its moral message. Still, tactics are very unrealistic: a second world war squad should be much better suited than the Federal Officers for this cherish.
It's funny how in modern space warfare you still need a good ole in your face action > most high complex Aliens would or should just make the opposition disappear > kinda reminds me of Minbari wiping out the Earth force in like 30 seconds with the Sharlin class battle cruisers > Superior species should be light years advanced in terms of warfare in my opinion
The only "superior" species in terms of tech that shows up regularly is the Borg, as evidenced by the fact that the only time they don't just shrug off whole fleets is when they've been neutered by the shitty writing on Voyager. Everyone else is on a fairly even playing field give or take (ie, as far as the Alpha Quadrant, prior to the war it generally took 2 Warbirds or 3 Galors or Marauders to take on one Galaxy Class in an even fight if everything was working right. The Jem'Hadar went 3-on-1 against the USS Odyssey and won only due to kamikaze tactics. By the time of the Dominion War you had ships like the Negh'var class, Defiant class, Akira class, Steamrunner class and Sovereign class which were all able to bring far more firepower to bear than the Galaxy class was ever capable of. And those ships STILL got a solid rogering from a single Borg Cube). Sometimes one side would get a technological advantage (ie, when the Breen entered the war and their weapons decimated the Defiant easily) but as soon as a countermeasure is developed it's back on an even footing (also keeping in mind that the Alpha Quadrant races managed to take out the Jem'Hadar breeding facilities and Ketracel White manufacturing facilities in the Alpha Quadrant, and Sisko had convinced the Prophets to stop any Dominion reinforcements coming through the wormhole straight onto DS9's doorstep, so the Dominion weren't able to bring their crushing numbers to bear.
@@Hudson316 Yeah, that's something we tend to forget in Star Trek: nearly everyone is on the same technological level, more or less. I mean, the Dominion have some obviously more advanced stuff, but nothing the Federation, the Klingons and the Romulans can't find a way around.
Meanwhile, the Borg and Species 8472 are legitimate threats whose technology and power are beyond the usual civilizations' reach.
Wars against the Dominion, advancements in technology, new classes of starships... And they still were no match for ONE Borg Cube. Even the Defiant, who was specifically built to fight the Borg, could barely make a difference. If Picard hadn't showed up, the whole fleet and Earth would've been decimated.
Deep Space Nine version of the Alamo!
@sunnchilde it's not supposed to be a horror movie...
This is like saving private Ryan but with phasers
Ummmmmmm why aren’t the Titan crew armed??
They lured the Changlings there with the intention of them coming aboard.
Wouldn’t it make sense to have EVERYONE armed just in case shit goes sideways like it has now?
" their not just names" sicko
Hes right all the names we see on war memorials. Those people had family friends lives. They gave up those lives so we can continue to live. Spend some time with some of the veterans of war. They will appreciate it even if they dont say it.
The music in this scene...
What's worse it was all for nothing holding that one spot
The horror of war.
Where can I get the background music for this?
It's called War Adagio
Close quarters combat