I would be more inclined to say that Worf shouldn't speak so loud about who is "allowed" to join Starfleet, as Klingons wouldn't have been allowed to join before the Federation-Klingon treaty, when they were in a state of perpetual war/cold war. Worf is very much the exception, himself, and it's at least a little hypocritical, if not illogical, to hold the opinion that exceptions prove the rule when Worf very much wants to be regarded as a "normal" Starfleet officer.
I can see the conversation now... Garak: "So, Julian! You've been hiding it all this time!" Julian: "Yes I have, it;s old news now Garak!" Garak: "I just wanted to congratulate you for being so good at hiding it, you would have made an excellent Cardassian!"
I like the theory that Garak knew all along and that's why he became friends with Bashir - because he knew he would have blackmail material if he needed it.
@@simplegarak True, but he also did respect Julian's mind. Like when he comments how there was hope for Julian yet when in that mind whatever it was I forget that his mind cast Garak as the villain.
@@simplegarak I always thought Garak could tell that Bashir was hiding something, but had no idea what he was hiding or why, which presented too much of a challenge to resist.
tejas That’s something rather different... I was just referring to science fiction. That’s more in the fantasy department. True or not, the so-called illuminati live and die just like everybody else. Then what? The powers that be only have as much power as you give them.
@Azguard Mike 2013 not entirely sure where ya'll got this notion that Alexander Siddig was upset with the subject matter of the episode, seeing as how he's quoted saying this is one of his favorite episodes. Don't know why he would be upset about his character being GE when we all found out he was the previous season.
@@MrAce2493 TrekMovie has an article about how the actor tried all he could to sabotage the efforts of retro-writing his character to be an augment. You can enter in search terms and find it pretty easily.
Oh i dont know. This topic is actually to a degree related to the question about AI and their role in society, which was covered with Data in TNG. One part was if Data, a machine, should have rights or if he should be treated like a toaster. The second part was about the consequences of creating more Datas, because that leads to the same problems as creating genetically superior humans. In both szenarios regular humans wont be able to compete and will eventually be driven into a evolutionary dead end. TNG and especially TOS did have those topics too. Though i guess there never was an as shady starfleet captain as protagonist on the show. I mean Sisko for example leaked information to the Kardasians about an klingon attack (an ally after all) with a lot of consequenzes. He made an entiere planet unhabitable to neutralize the Marqui as a thread and he ordered Garak to drag the Romulans into a war (which basically cost them most of their fleet for no gain) they didnt want to join, by murdering an Romulan ambessador and his crew (and yes, as Garak pointed out later, Sisko was aware that it could come to this). Sisko is in many ways an anti-Picard.
Nog's character arc is amazing. From petty criminal to misogynist asshole to hero worshipping recruit to traumatised recluse to cool as a cucumber veteran
@@Daniel-rd6st This is why Picard will always be a favourite. He was unwilling to compromise on his ideals no matter the cost. Sisko was pragmatic and if the series continued we would see how that one compromise led to many others.
@@Daniel-rd6st While the Federation is discriminatory against Both (AIs and Genetic Augments) they are far more so against Augments. Data had to have a trial to stay in Starfleet, yes: but they still allowed him to join in the first place. (With the Federation knowing full well what he was.) No such courtesy would've been give to Bashir if he had been honest.
Bruh leave it to O’Brien and warcrime Sisko to euphemize excluding the enhanced from starfleet. 😂 Like imagine it from a historical context: “We’re not excluding black people from sports, we’re just limiting their privileges!”
@@TheJaguarthChannel they're letting de dumbest get in with low scores and exclude the ones with the highest test results. It's insulting to our collective intelligence.
I'm a little surprised by Worf. He's the one in the room with the closest relation to Julian growing up. Worf was stronger and tougher than other children to the point he killed one accidently. He's been evasive and has constantly held himself back physically in fear of repeating that tragedy. Julian has been hiding and holding back most of his superior physical and mental traits his whole life. The saddest thing about all this is that this reflects reality today. with people who have special needs and skills, but it will soon become a common problem as the prospect of designer babies are slowly becoming a possibility.
Maybe that's why Worf was so quick to comment that parents would feel pressured to have their children enhanced. Worf spent a large part of his childhood not holding back; he knows what it's like to be light-years ahead of anyone else his age and he's seen how people can react to that.
Wolfs ability to relate is extremely limited. Klingons are not that much stronger than humans, in fact its proven many times in a one on one that humans have defeated klingons as many times as the other way around. Klingons are however tougher, worf killed a kid when he was a kid when they collided heads and worfs tougher skull and protruding bones on his forehead did alot of damage to the human child resulting in death. Augments or genetically enhanced humans are superior in all ways both physically and mentally and significantly superior by many many factors, so this is not quite the same thing and the reason why bashir ended up being annoyed with worfs comments.
Worf's problem is he's a very straight arrow follow the rules of honor type guy. Jadzia who has a few centuries of rule breaking and being a rebel under her belt should have been more sympathetic.
Illustrates quite profoundly why DS9 was the shiniest gem in the Star Trek franchise to date. Brilliant cast and actors, challenging stories and topics. Screenwriting, camera, dialogues... all top notch.
I mean, lets be honest: agree with the policy or not, the reason they prohibited genetic tampering is solely because of historical trauma because of Khan and the Eugenics Wars, not because of unfair competition between enhanced and non-enhanced humans per se. There are hundreds of alien species in the Federation that enjoy superior mental and physical capacities than humans and "compete unfairly", and they're not excluded from Starfleet. The law is essentially an emotional reaction to something that could be likened to a Holocaust situation, which its bound to leave some scars in a society
It actually makes sense to prohibit genetic enhancement on ethical grounds. Just like it was said in this scene: they were kids, they didn't ask this to be done to them. Somebody decided on their behalf what they should be like what their limits and proclivities should be. This is tyranny. In order to discourage people from being tyrannical towards their own children ban included also the prohibition of career for enhanced people, rendering gained advantages useless. Your argument about unfair competition is useless; different species have different sets of norms typical for their population and they cannot be judged by human standards of our population. However, within our population enhanced people would have an unfair advantage. What is fair is decided by the context of your evolutionary heritage. What you said here is equivalent of this: "Well I don't see a reason why cheetah cannot run in Olympic sprints with humans". Makes no sense.
The genetic engineering - as used in this episode - is a metaphor for the steroid and performance-enhancing drugs in sporting. There is an argument to be made that free-use of drugs and medical enhancements would make the system more transparent....it is their bodies after all. The downside is that you know there are parents and adults out there who would abuse this medical technology and ruin the life of kids ...to say nothing of some governments - children's bodies are far more adaptable to medical alteration than adults, after al, not to mention their suggestive-prone minds unable to form a risk-benefit analysis in what we consider a proper "decision-making" mindset.
if thats metaphor for steorids and similar stuff, then it is poorly done, because it speaks about changing core of your existence in a way that is incomparable with performance enhancing drugs.
@@Zarrov I don't think that Heitor's assessment re: Khan and the Eugenics Wars is inaccurate, though. And I think it's a bit hypocritical to defend refusing the possibility of a career for humans genetically modified without their consent immediately after calling those non-consensual modifications "tyranny". Why should they be punished for their own parents committing crimes against them? (As for your argument about standards, I find that too complicated to go in-depth on, so I'll settle with saying that as someone born with a permanent mental disorder, complaining about "unfair advantages" seems pretty fucking arbitrary to me. Y'all were born lucky.)
Whats complex about realizing that different species of organisms have different sets of norms of their performance, behaviour etc.? Cucumber is not a banana, and thats it. Thats not rocket science. You cannot expect cucumber to perform in the same categories equally as banana. And as for your experience-exceptions and errors are not a rule and they do not invalidate the rule. As for tyranny-you are putting in my mouth something I didnt said. I explained aspects of genetic modification that are almost never considered in TV science fiction, creating fallacies in peoples minds thinking about it. I never said that this ban on career-making is good. I explained rationale behind it.
I love scenes like this the most in Star Trek. Something about seeing the officers act more like people and debate each other, share moments, made them better to me.
The irony being that Worf (the strawman as usual) is a Klingon and physically stronger and tougher than humans in his original line of work (Security). Nearby sits Jadzia, who was "augmented" (as an adult!) by having a centuries-old symbiont put into her body that gives her access to the knowledge and experience of other hosts before her. Meanwhile, the Federation allows the Vulcans (nearly as physically strong and intellectually capable as Augments) and Betazoids (long-range telepaths!) to serve in Starfleet. So why doesn't *that* cause pressure for the parents of humans to have their children genetically-augmented? It is a peculiar argument, that humans with enhanced abilities would create such "pressure", but being having to work with aliens with enhanced abilities does not. It gets even funnier when one remembers that Worf was raised among humans, which means that he enjoyed physical superiority over other kids his age, as well as over human Starfleet cadets!
***** ... that's actually a very sound point you have there. If anything, humans should have genetic re-sequencing compulsory, lest they want their race to be left on the sidelines of evolutionary race
Observer29830 Well, in-show they work around this by making non-human or mixed-species crewmembers be very rare, so that the humans can shine. In TOS Spock was actually the *only* Vulcan in Starfleet! By TNG we saw other Vulcans milling around as extras, but they were never used even in situations where they would have been very useful. Likewise, Deanna Troi, a half-human/half-Betazoid with only limited telepathic abilities, was the only representative of her species out of the thousand or so crew of the Enterprise-D. Putting a full-Betazoid with capabilities like Deanna's mother Lwaxana aboard would have ruined countless plots, as they would have been able to detect intrigues and even sensed cloaked enemy starships with ease. So humanity gets a free pass, most of the time, based on the fact that Starfleet is almost entirely human. Thus they get to show how awesome they are without needing special abilities. Although VOY broke this somewhat, as they depended heavily on the Doctor (a hologram programmed with *all* of the Federation's medical knowledge) and Seven-of-Nine (who still had numerous cybernetic enhancements even after being liberated from the Borg, as well as the vast knowledge she had absorbed during her time in the Collective).
3675Chandra But it wasn't a *Starfleet* ship. The Vulcans were still prone to doing their own separate space exploration back then. That's why Spock was considered notable in having joined Starfleet.
It made some of his early actions and the way he acted make more sense. You realize he was putting up a front so no one would notice he was enhanced. Kind of like how Clark Kent acts all clumsy and nerdy so no one can see Superman in him.
Yeah, early DS9 Bashir was outright annoying at some points, like when he was in a Runabout with Kira, who was trying to meditate, and he kept talking and doing weird noisy breathing techniques.
I loved a blurb on the Star Trek Online cyborg bridge officer. It talks about how augmentation is banned for humans, but exceptions exist on those that got augmented but have no criminal record and are very productive/useful so the "augment" bit gets erased from their record. The thing that struck me most was how it specifically pointed out "human augments" as being banned, so I of course dabbled with the idea of an Andorian who was augmented for one of my bridge officers lol.
I miss playing that game, got a bunch of characters, but I haven't played in 6 years plus. Tried logging in for a bit some months ago, and I have no idea what I'd do. It was a fun game though.
@@austinmajor3288 SIsko: Emissary of the prophets Dax: 700 year old symbiote Odo: only changeling to have killed another changeling. Worf: First Klingon in starfleet Kira & O'brien: actually relatively normal.
It's a wonder how humans are able to compete with Vulcans when they're doing doctoral level math and ethical philosophy courses in their prepubescent years. Not to mention their superior physical abilities. And yet no one limits the career options of Vulcans.
Because Vulcans have their own weaknesses. Due to low birth rate and environmental factors on their barren homeworld (have we EVER seen a Vulcan household with more than one child?) the Vulcans are heavily outnumbered by humans, much less humans plus the rest of the Federation races. They also are extremely rigid and somewhat socially awkward as a group, and their society has been in decline for hundreds of years before they joined the Federation. we think Vulcans are all that, because Spock was all that. But the only other Vulcan we've seen that was really anywhere near as much of a badass as Spock is Spock's own father. So our judgment if Vulcans is not based on a representative sample, since the Vulcan we most know and recognize happens to be one of the best examples the species has to offer. Vulcans are not Supermen. Spock was just that good at Vulcaning. He had an energetic human side that allowed him to overcome the torpor of his dying society and human companions to keep him on his toes and fight off traditional Vulcan complacency. The result was an epic figure of a Vulcan because human influence either countered, or forced him to overcome, his species' traditional weaknesses.
"Take Me Out to the Holosuite" suggests Vulcans, as rule, possess superior hand-eye coordination, stamina, speed, and strength to humans and several other races. As to Vulcans being less reproductive: Tuvok had four children. Spock had a half-brother.
Not everyone thinks Vulcan society is on the decline or is dying. Just because you do not see a Vulcan family with two kids does not mean they do not exist. If Vulcan males HAVE to mate every seven Earth yrs (they can mate outside of it but not everyone chooses that) more then one child can be produced. Vulcans are still stronger then Humans. Starfleet is a Human dominated org. But that has seemed to be changing by the time the 24th century arrives. "Vulcaning" is not a word in the English dictionary. Perhaps before you start turning your arrogant nose uo at ANOTHER species, you should consider mastering your English...and checking your Human centric point of view. If I was your Starfleet commaning officer, I would order you to spend months doing community service among Vulcans to open your eyes AND your HEART.
Vulcan emotions run deep-much more so then Humans. They almost killed themselves as aspecies over the lack of self control and they tend to go to extremes as a species without logic.
The thing is Bashir is not better than everyone. Is he better than Obrien at fixing a warp nacelle? Is Bashir able to physically defend himself from a Klingon like Worf or even a large human being like Riker or Sisko? Will Bashir ever be as good a Captain as Picard, which has nothing to do with augmentation and everything to do with personal ability to be a good leader. It is all relative to various degrees.
True, Julian might not be an exceptional fighter or diplomat. he was only augmented to have superior intelligence and hand/eye coordination. But in those fields he has an unfair advantage, like when he was able to beat o'brien at darts. where o'brien is an experienced and skilled player. Like wise if Julian had been augmented to have superior strength, it would give him an unfair advantage in events were he could exploit his augmented strength
There is no unfair in war. You put the best people in a position to do their best. I'm not surprised that the Dominion War had the Federation testing the waters with augments again. If the Think Tank had gone better, how could they have resisted going full bore on genetic augmentation, especially since they were fighting an enemy that fully embraced genetic augment clones.
"we're not trying to exclude them, we're just talking about limiting what they are allowed to do." that's literally the same fucking thing. "we're not trying to exclude them, we're just considering laws that would keep them out of certain fields and jobs, which it totally different from excluding them, because excluding them would be keeping them out of certain fields and jobs with rules, while WE on the other hand are just trying to keep them out of certain fields and jobs with rules
Seeing as nearly every major cast member of TNG has proven themselves wholly incapable of this kind of adult discourse on hot topic issues, it's all the more fitting this happened on Deep Space Nine
I find it interesting that Kira and Dax are the two people who keep the most quiet in this conversation. Breakdown: Worf, whose people suffered a loss of headridges due to DNA tampering, and who was raised on Earth, is very set against it. Miles, also raised on earth, a petty officer who will always be technically lower than Doctor Bashir in rank and probably won't ever outrank him, same opinion, but probably for more personal reasons. Sisko, calmer, and a lot more understanding, also raised on Earth, listening to all the arguments. Odo giving important information, and lets be honest, he would be quite educated about anything related to Starfleet or Federation law. The first thing he would have done would be go check the Federation records after Bashir's parents confessed what happened. This leaves us with the only other two people not raised on Earth, Kira, who lived under the occupation and has an experience of being oppressed for having different 'Bajoran' genes so to speak. And Dax, who lived through the whole Trill coming out thing (during Curzon's time I'm guessing?) and probably faced a lot of backlash from people about the symbiont, especially after what happened during TNG's whole parasitic organisms taking over Starfleet thing. So the two quietest people in the conversation would probably be the most sympathetic.
I know this is an extremely late reply to your comment, but I just wanted to say that it was very insightful and made me reconsider the whole scene. Re-watching it, I just noted how after O'Brien's comment about engineered people making normal people look bad, Jadzia gives a somewhat polite smile. After all, she's the most 'enhanced' person in the room; Bashir might have genius level intelligence and enhanced co-ordination but the Dax symbiote gives her the combine knowledge and experience of hundreds of years, including those of an exceptionally skilled pilot and a galaxy-renowned diplomat.
Imagine knowing that your coworker is genetically engineered, and at least if you're Miles knowing that it was a significant source of trauma for him and still talking in this way.
I don't think anyone was being callous. No one wanted to upset Julian, but the discussion was necessary and it was better to have it in the open rather than behind Julian's back. They were showing Julian respect by trusting that he could handle the discomfort, rather than everyone carefully tailoring or entirely avoiding the discussion so that Julian could be comfortable. That's maturity.
i remember as a kid i used to think that if genetic modification was possible it would be an imperative to use it to make humanity better but when i grew up and watched this scene it really made me wonder if i was considering the ramifications of such a thing…
And yet! If we can eliminate many genetic diseases and spare people untold suffering, isn't it an immoral choice not to do so? More, since people with genetic defects are now surviving with modern medicine, isn't it a good assumption that our genes are not staying constant, but getting less healthy on the average?
@@kennethkellogg6556 i agree it would be immoral to not stop suffering especially if you’re in a position to do so. i suppose great care would have to be taken in ensuring genetic engineering is only used in treating disease and genetic “defects” but we coming across certain philosophical questions. for instance a blind person wouldn’t exist, does blindness preclude a person from living a full life? does a person with autism or down syndrome have nothing to offer society? who can access this technology everyone? or just those who can afford it? would society eventually place more value on a modified person vs a unmodified person? some of these questions come dangerous close to eugenics and they would have to be answered if we developed dna modification
In the Star Trek story/lore: The history of the Eugenics Wars and their results ending with the start of WWIII was enough to bring humanity to the brink of self-annihilation. It that sting of what humans let happen and the horrors that we did to ourselves, which has made even the ideal of human genetic resequencing and augmentation simply off limits. That's why Human society and by extension, Starfleet, takes such a Hardline stance against such genetic activity to the point where they appear callous and unforgiving, even to the very children that were the unintended consequences of such work. That being said, Dr. Bashir is right, you can't just simply abandoned them and ostracized the children of such a difficult situation; but the Human authority and Starfleet are also right, with one extension, they take such a Hardline stance only because they believe we as humans don't have the ability to control ourlseves enough in their life time to keep genetic augmentation and resequencing from again becoming what it once was, a threat to the very existence to humanity. However, I'd argue that there is plenty of options and help with such an issue, so that they can overcome this issue, especially with the guidance, of so many truly helpful races in the federation for assistance in scientific reasearch, study and experimentation, to not only help to advance humanity genetically, but to bring about a more stable world for those children, who are in effect, left behind by the current society; due to the very nature of their conception that was done without their choice.
@DriftZ TwoSeven No, it's prejudice based on over-generalization. Supporting banning anyone who has had their genes re-sequenced from certain jobs because centuries ago some people were genetically engineered to be strong, aggressive strategic genius combat specialists, and then did exactly what they were designed to do, just on their own behalf instead of their designers'? Julian was treated to fix learning disabilities and neurological deficits, and ended up smarter and quicker than most humans instead of just restored to baseline (unintentional, the treatment just worked better than expected). That is not even close to comparable to the people who designed Khan and what their intentions were, nor what their results were. Julian would have been pre-judged, not on his own merits, but on assumptions based on comparing him to someone based on a category they both technically fit into. That would be like banning all Austrians from, say, running for political office, because of the existence of Adolf Hitler. Not all Nazis (a measure of choice and character) but all Austrians (a measure of genetic/ethnic heritage).
It makes perfect sense though. It's "I have black friends" with an Augment. Julian isn't someone who received genetic enhancements to them. He's Julian Bashir to them first, foremost, and last. To them he's family and his genetic augmentations don't matter. They see the person before the subject of the conversation. They know him, know that he's *not* Khan Noonien Singh. That doesn't mean they're comfortable with every enhanced person.
@DriftZ TwoSeven Yes, I'm absolutely happy to judge a Nazi based on their choice to claim adherence and loyalty to the Nazi party. Absolutely. They have willingly joined a group with abhorrent policies and beliefs, and a heritage of mass murder, horror, racism, and general desecration of their own humanity. I am completely comfortable with judging them accordingly. Anyone claiming to be a Nazi who isn't one is a plain idiot, but if they want to self-identify as a Nazi (without technically being one), that still tells me what a fetid necrotic wasteland their mind and soul has become just as clearly as card-carrying party membership. What kind of an absolutely clueless buffoon would think that a Nazi should be treated as if they were a member of just any general sort of social club or political party, instead of someone who basically thinks Hitler was an alright chap with some whiz-bang ideas for how to run a society???
I actually have to credit Star Trek Enterprise for making this episode make more sense. I was confused why genetic manipulation would be so abhorrent to Star Fleet, especially when it seeks out new life and new civilizations, but the Enterprise episode, The Augments, made this episode a lot more understandable.
I will say Bashir really fell flat for me the first season and some of the second but he really found his footing and made a strong character, and while the characterization he goes through in the GM character episodes is important it just feels as if he’s done or doesn’t care. It’s one thing for his character to develop some kind of depression over the war but he’s just sitting there and it feels like he can barely get the words out
I feel like you go through the level of trauma that Bashir does in general, and in that episode specifically hoping he can make a difference and then having his hopes dashed, and more or less having his friends say there's nothing to be done, it's kinda understandable he would dissociate cuz the feelings would be painful
@@morrigangg I did. Season one and two and the first episode of three. It's a badly written show that has nothing to do with Star Trek. The plot is dumb and simplistic, the characters are stupidly annoying and unsympathetic, the space battles are an absolute mess in which they just crammed as many special effects as they could. They also completely disregard the source material, with Kurtzman and other members of the production team never have watched star trek. They made their own edgy action sci-fi and used the Star Trek brand as nothing more than marketing.
@avshzj Clearly you havent watched the show. Literally the entire opening arc envolves vulcans of all people war mongering. The show is complete garbage that has nothing in common with real star trek. The show is as "nuanced" in its agenda as clubbing someone over the head with a book called The Patriarchy.
The Federation's stance on genetic engineering always struck me as incongruous. I understand that catastrophic wars were fought over eugenics, but the arguments that parents of unaugmented children would feel pressured to compete, or that the augmented would necessarily persecute the unaugmented, never really rang true: we're talking about a society that has organically eliminated the vices of the human experience, from poverty to prejudice, yet they just gave up on this one? A society in which any number of races stronger and even smarter than humans coexist with humans already? If genetically engineered people aren't allowed to join Starfleet, they're second-class citizens. The concept of second-class citizens doesn't gel with Trek's Earth at all. I don't mean to say that I think this is a bad idea. The issue is complicated, and exposes some moral contradictions in the Federation (or at least Earth, or Starfleet) that are fun to think about, but the weight of that contradiction goes mostly unexplored. This is why I really wish Star Trek: Picard had been written about genetic engineering instead of artificial intelligence. The notion that the Federation would ban AI research wholesale based on fear after one (admittedly major) incident of obvious tampering feels slipshod and forced; the notion that they would "enslave" legions of synths for menial labour in the first place, while not unprecedented, disregards the moral conclusions of multiple legacy episodes and that contradiction isn't addressed; and the notion of Troi and Riker's child dying of a "silicon-based virus" that could only be cured through AI-adjacent research might be the most contrived plot point in all of Star Trek. If the series was about genetic engineering instead, then: we already have a centuries-old ban on GM research, it's oppressive and it's (at least partly) based in fear, so you still get to wax political about persecuted groups and make it work organically in-universe; you get to explore the moral foundation of the Federation without disregarding the show's legacy; and Troi and Riker's child can just die or otherwise suffer from a less ludicrous condition that could have been treated if genetic resequencing was legal. I suppose they wouldn't have been able to dance on Data's grave this way, but maybe we could have had a Bashir cameo.
A major theme of DS9 for me was that even the Federation is run by flawed people. For all that they are *on the whole* a humane and decent society, they're still subject to weakness, including the occasional inane prejudice like this one. Racism and sexism are but memories of a bygone age--but gosh are superhumans scary. Is it rational to punish a good man like Bashir, who obviously has a lot to offer, for something his parents did to him? No. But the Federation is made of people. So they're not going to be 100% rational on every issue all the time. As a side note, these guys are being really crappy friends to Bashir in this scene. O'Brien, I'm looking at you. "Let's hope they don't become too productive," indeed. Like, "Haha, BFF, I know your entire life has been a struggle to find a way to safely express your innate gifts in a way that doesn't creep out normal people, and that you'd probably have been spared a massive amount of fear and self-loathing if you just could've lived openly, but that idea kind of intimidates me so screw you."
Luna Stone ever saw augments storyline in Enterprise you know the truth! superior abilities produce superior ambitions! they won't control themselves! no attempt to control them has worked! it literally is them or us!
Except Bashir exists. And his greatest ambition is basically to be a really good doctor, and maybe be recognized for being a really good doctor. Which isn't much of a threat to galactic stability, if you ask me. The augments in Enterprise came from a completely different scientific and social context than the augments in DS9. The genetic modifications 24th-century kids received are almost certainly not the same as the modifications given to people in the eras of Khan and Arik Soong, and maybe even more importantly, they weren't given for the same reason. The people who made Khan wanted a superhuman. Bashir's parents were just terrified of disability.
The augments in Enterprise were literally from the same batch that Khan and his followers came from. Their designers specifically created them to be abnormally aggressive. If superior ability breeds superior ambition, then why haven't Vulcans and Betazoids seized control of the Federation? Or is it just that *humans* cannot be trusted?
DS9 kind of showed that even though humans had made great strides they were still flawed creatures. No one is perfect no matter how far we've moved over the years. It's why I liked it better then any of the other Star Trek shows.
DS9 for me showed that, while people in the Federation were not perfect, those problems only showed what the Federation was as a whole. It's like we are now - There are racists, sexists, and bigots... there are those who wish to hold others down for their own gain... there are those who would rather destroy than create... but as a whole, the human race is innovative, caring, and longs for a connection with others. Most people are good people, and the bad ones only serve to spotlight who the good ones are.
It was a tough dilemma. On the one hand if they continue to limit those who were enhanced, then they are punishing innocent people, victims of their parents choices... But on the other hand, if they do not limit them, then there are many parents out there who would gladly sacrifice their own careers and promise just to give their children the best possible chance at... well, everything.
I almost think there has to be some kind of affirmative action for humans because of all the advantages the other species have. Vulcans in particular ought to dominate the upper echelons of Star Fleet. Setting aside the fact they are both intellectually and physically superior to humans in every way, the simple fact that they can tap into centuries of experience over the course of they're incredible lifespans ought to make them invaluable. Every crew in Star Fleet, especially warships, ought to also have Betazoids aboard. While some species are immune to telepathy, they seem to be exceptions rather than the rule. I cannot possibly understate how much of an immense tactical and strategic advantage one could gain by being able to read an enemy's mind. Then there is the matter of Data. It's only a matter of time before someone else manages to replicate Soong's work. How many problems were solved aboard the Enterprise by virtue of Data alone? Having a tireless super-being aboard every ship would be extremely useful. So, all that being said, I fail to see why it would be such a terrible thing to let people enhance their children. It's not as if people the people who choose to remain natural will starve or wallow in poverty. Plus, I thought the whole philosophical underpinnings of the Federation was personal growth for the betterment of everyone?
You may be underplaying human advantages with regards to other species. Vulcans as you say live longer, but that may have the unintended effect of hindering technical innovation and social evolution. As for the use of Betazoids and androids, they are still beings with individual desires and motivations. They addressed this partly in TNG's "Measure of a Man". Can you conscript or force sentient beings into Starfleet service, and can you necessarily trust that they would serve Federation interests at the expense of another species?
The vulcans would dominate, but I don't think they are very good at getting along with people from other races. Usually they serve on vulcan only ships. In Enterprise the humans were put in charge simply because they got along with everybody, maybe that's why humans dominate star fleet? Or maybe most crews are mostly from one species, like you have a ship that is mostly humans, one that is mostly andorans etc. (The real reason is that they wanted to save time and money on makeup though)
Betazoids seem to have difficulty in Starfleet based on a couple of social issues: the privacy concerns/paranoia of non-telepathic species, and the social awkwardness caused by the general Betazoid insistence on complete honesty (an almost unavoidable occurrence for a species of telepaths). Little white lies and other socially-lubricating customs are somewhere between alien and distasteful to them, and that can be disruptive to other species' emotional equilibrium. Look at the effect that Lwaxanna Troi has on Jean-Luc Picard for a salient example.
@@woodrobin Were the Betazoids telepaths (mind readers) or empaths (readers of emotions)? There's a huge differene between reading thoughts and reading emotions, though both would be highly intrusive to people who could do neither. Until her latter appearances on DS9, I couldn't stomach Lwaxanna Troi at all. Not only did she not respect anyone's privacy, she deliberately used her ability to embarrass and manipulate others, which I cannot excuse on the basis of culture or anything else.
It is a shame that is not the case now, more and more dissenting opinions or those that are contradictory to what is mainstream are seen as troublesome and disruptive regardless of the argument and the facts or logic presented.
THIS is how you do social commentary in a drama. If this episode were made today, Julian would look straight down the camera and talk uninterrupted for 12 minutes about how sad he feels because he’s so innately awesome but society keeps oppressing him, and then all the other characters would just instantly agree with his point of view. Character, conflict, consequences. Take note, contemporary writers.
Some of this is reminiscent of the dialogue in Falcon and the Winter Soldier, how Zemo's concern of people becoming Super-Soldiers makes them feel as supremacists. Even when it's commented to him that Steve was never that way, he admits that's true, but that to the best of his knowledge, NO ONE else has ever been like him. Even Bucky isn't the same.
i find this scene weird because it tries to say that the reason that genetic engineering is banned is because the people who received the augments would have an unfair advantage but the true reason it is banned is because of khan an augmented human who tried to conquer and overthrow the federation because he believed himself and others like him to be the superior beings and deserved to rule over those he viewed as being beneath him which was everybody. so it was actually banned because of racism.
Remember the episode with Julius being found out, it goes further back than the time of TOS and Khan Singh. Its in reference to the Eugenics war where there were multiple augments who were trying to dominate the world in the 1990s, one of whom was the same Khan Singh. These people held high positions of power and treated "normals" as piles of crap. It ended with the slaughter of 37 million people. And after the end of the eugenics war, it also in part started the worst war of all Earth history World War III. This war lasted 30 years wiping out 600 million people. You can see why the Federation feared augmentation because nothing good came from it.
What Worf should have said was that Julian is an exception because he chose to use his gifts the right way, he wasn't overly ambitious, didn't use his enhancements for nefarious purposes, and above all didn't perceive other humans as inferior or undeserving of existence like a certain other genetically enhanced despot. He was the best case scenario, but if more like him exist, there's too great a risk that at least one of them may be the opposite.
It also helped to connect why Klingons in the original series looked so different from these Klingons. If you watched Star Trek Enterprise they actually tried to give a decent explanation for the drastic change and it was connected to the Eugenics War.
Don't forget when he got a slap on the wrist for lying to Starfleet about his genetic enhancements when he should have received dishonorable discharge. Bashir's whining is even more obnoxious than usual.
The problem is that all of them are right simultaneously. Each of these concerns is valid. You have to make a trade. Because the idea of what is "good" grows old and stale as new things become possible for good and for ill. Do we turn every baby into mutants? Do we let the rich buy better babies? Do we forbid it and punish the innocent? CHOOSE. You don't get out of this conundrum while remaining the culture you were before. And here's the worst part: Pandora's box will always have another Pandora's box inside it, whatever else comes out. There will never be a time when there isn't such a choice forced upon you.
While I believe that fundamental morality never changes, so in that sense "right" and "wrong" don't change, it is true that with every scientific and medical advancement in what it is possible to do, new ethical and legal questions arise, a new Pandora's Box opens and has to be dealt with. Unfortunately, ethics and the law are always lagging a decade or several behind, and a lot of moral and legal chaos results.
Looking back on this story arc it seems so utterly improbable that in the 24th century we'll all still be natural born humans, let alone that humanity could effect any such ban without effectively privileging people who secretly break it. Wish they'd found a more realistic way of talking about the ideas and ideals involved but I guess the original Khan arc made it all irrevocably canon.
yeah I always disliked the way they basically turned the idea of improving ourselves through genetic alteration as some sort of catalyst for a dystopian order of Khans. with survival of the fittest taken out of our evolution through social and economic benefits the only way for us to change for the better is too do it ourselves, always felt star trek dropped the ball when it came to this idea.
I think they could have gotten away with a token nod to post-humanity without an expensive cast of supermen, they just went with a reactionary naturalistic fallacy instead. I'd rather they'd skipped over the idea entirely. The Culture is probably the best attempt at post-scarcity/post-humanity I know of. Seconded.
You guys aren't seeing the forest for the trees. Star Trek scientists use genetic therapy all the time, it's part of their standard suite of treatments. They've just found through sad history that nearly every attempt to take genetic treatments beyond therapy into augmentation created monsters. Turning a child to a potential literal monster because of parental consent is an act of monstrosity in itself, of course that's banned.
people are already monsters, that we might be able to get sharper claws through genetic tampering wouldnt make much of a difference as long as it was open to everyone. the real danger is creating a class of people above others, which is most likely how it will go down in reality until the ones without die out from age or genocide.
You'd think that Lethean who plumbed the depths of Bashir's mind for all his deep seeded psychological issues and juicy secrets would have stumbled across the whole 'genetically augmented' thing though, wouldn't you? ;)
I think he did, didn't he? It's been a while, but I think I remember him taunting Bashir with that exam question he threw in order to be 2nd, instead of 1st in his class. I *think* I remember him suggesting that he only did it, because he knew in advance the classmate who would be 1st didn't want to take his assignment on DS9, because she had an assignment picked out.
@@tzaphkielconficturus7136 Right but that was played entirely as Bashir just having a "fear of success". Not him trying to hide his familial criminality, which you'd think would be a knife the Lethean would have enjoyed twisting in his gut a bit.
cfh0384 perhaps they didn't like the fact that Star Trek had a generally negative stance on genetic engineering. No, it wasn't me. But I certainly don't agree with that. The writer of any series has the right to do as they please, whether they want enhancement to be a tool for heroism (like Captain America) or for villainy (like Kahn). But that doesn't mean I'd agree with it.
It's both, but the Federation thought it over and decided that the damage from super villains isn't worth the benefit of super heroes. Especially because one individual augment supervillian nearly broke the planet in Earth's earlier history.
hagamapama right, but I'm saying that I still don't agree that the entire technology should be banned because of some bad incidents with it. Think of if they had banned transporter technology because a crazed dictator who got access to it first used it to cause havoc. Would that be fair to the rest of the population? I don't think so.
I wonder when the writers/producers of DS9 decided to make Bashir genetically enhanced? From the beginning? Or right about the time of this episode? I am guessing the latter. It's an intriguing story line. And one humanity will probably have to face one day (if it survives long enough).
The hints were always there. He was second in his class (due to a trick question that he admittedly whiffed on) in the Academy. He was able to bring a dead man back to life. He has extensive medical knowledge even during the early days of DS9. He was kicking himself when he couldn't come up with a cure for an incurable disease engineered by the Dominion. He has always shown hints of brilliance above other doctors in the Star Trek universe. Does that necessarily mean they've always had this in mind for his character? Probably not. But it wasn't like he was suddenly thrust into that kind of role.
Some of the writers and producers and the actor himself have stated that this storyline was quite literally last minute. The reveal happens in "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?" and even in the episode immediately preceding that, they had no idea they were going to do it. It does fit incredibly well retrospectively with the mythos they'd already seeded throughout the series, but that wasn't planned from the beginning
@@kirazalea5234 Sid talked about this yesterday during the SidCity Zoom meeting-He only found out about his character being enhanced when they handed him the script to be read that day! He was like "Wait...what?"
When I was 7 Years Old My Brain Chemistry derailed. When I was 31 Years Old despite My altered Brain Chemistry, the Australian Army sought to put Me into the Uniform of an Australian Military Police Colonel, not because I had Disabilities but despite “that I had Disabilities” because they saw that I had Skill and Talents in Military Planning, which they wanted to take advantage of. Regrettably I was too ‘short sighted’ in and of Myself, to see how donning a Uniform would benefit Me later in Life. Today I’d be a Retired Army Officer and not just a Retired Civilian.
I love the fact that the general consensus of the discussion, is there is no right answer. Things were done, but not properly. Things that shouldn't have been done, were done, but who do you punish? I love how it gets to the core of things, the fact is they would have an advantage, if able to coexist and be productive. But how do you nerf someone potential to equalize the field for others? And there isn't a good answer, This is great writing, not the feelings slop they do today
*Most people arguing against enhancement in this scene are themselves objectively super-human:* 1. Worf, a Klingon, who is physically stronger/tougher and works in security. 2. Dax, a bonded Trill, who uses centuries of experience from an adult enhancement procedure in her role as a science officer. 3. Commander Sisko, who is "The Emissary" mystically blessed by "The Prophets." 4. Odo, who is an immortal changeling. ... and then there's Major Kira and Chief O'Brien. What a strange context for this conversation.
@Ij999 People are just like that though. You're right, they should have more empathy for him but they don't because of the stigma against genetic engineering.
To all those commenting Worf's words: remember - Worf has LIFTIME of practicing RESTRAINT. Also, he's not ... argumented as far as HIS species is concerned.
Never mind that time the enterprise d came along to that planet of the genetically engineered kids and Pulaski nearly died... funny how that was allowed ..
I wondered about that too-Federation, you can't have it both ways! On the one hand, they ban genetic enhancements for kids born with birth defects(unless it's life-or-death situations) and then on the other hand, they have a station lab allowing scientists creating superkids who can move objects telekinetically, and worst of all, ward off illnesses with their super immunity by messing up others' DNA, causing them to age and die! At least the former didn't cause a dangerous contagion!
@@nancyomalley9959 Kinda sad when you think about it, If the ban on Genetic Engineering wasn't a thing, Geordi wouldn't have had to spend most of his life in constant pain from using the VISOR and later on Ocular Implants. His Blindness could have potentially been corrected in-utero and would have improved his quality of life, but instead the Ban on Genetic resequencing meant that Geordi's blindness was considered "Incurable"
Seeing the problems this caused for the other enhanced children that grew up in an institution, perhaps THAT is why there is a ban. Julian was the exception because he got to grow up like a typical child.
I think I can understand what Worf was trying to say, especially when you consider how other Augments have acted, including Khan and Jack. Bashir doesn't hold himself as superior to others.
Genetic variation is important. As time changes, so does the need for different variants. Expression may be hidden then be just the difference required for any population.. eg.. I bet there is someone out there with the perfect antibody system which counteracts the COVID 19 yet to be discovered.
Julian is a far better man than I. If I were told by Starfleet that I would never advance in rank (and thus never be allowed to, say, become head of Starfleet Medical and make policy changes that could help billions) and Sloan wanted me to join Section 31 I would say yes. After all, my intellect could be used to its fullest to benefit the people of the Federation. Even if the vast majority of Starfleet would never know who I was or what I did the upper echelons of Starfleet Command would and they would have to acknowledge that they not only underestimated my talent but constrained me in such a way that they effectively forced me to abandon everything the Federation stood for in order to save it. Section 31 is a shadow organization, free of Starfleet Command's control, so by trying to contain my supposed threat to societal order at large they lost all control of me and what I could do. I'm surprised Sloan didn't try to abduct the Institute Augments and use them for counter-intelligence; they are clearly as capable as Bashir but without those pesky morals getting in the way.
While it was wrong to exclude Augments from society, it was obvious heightened requirement and guidelines would've been needed. For example with education, remove C's and B's as passing grades for Augments.
fun fact, the actor playing Julian HATED this twist. He refused to learn the lines for the episode. He had cue cards on his lap, on the table, on the walls in various scenes out of protest.
imagine anything from those new supposably "Star Trek" shows attempting this kind of subject. Would either fall flat completely missing the mark or beat you over the head with the subtlety of an airborne.
dibaterman By this time Worf is an Lieutenant Commander while Bashir is only a full Lieutenant (and, apparently due to his genetic background, he shouldn't look forward to anymore promotions in the future if the time-traveling episodes in the series are any indication).
And here we are..... later, in 2019..... some dude in another country decides to perform a procedure, involving a genetic alteration, to a human life. Folks, we are (once again) witnessing Star Trek material unfolding in the real world.
I like to think that, when other races aren't around, Klingons are just as happy to sit and mull over thorny ethical problems over a blood wine as Worf is doing, here (over his prune juice).
Scenes like this is why I get annoyed when bitter fans say new Star Trek is bad because there's too much politics when DS9 was commentating on subjects like this 20 years ago
@Nathan Bernacki I'm sure the prisons in the 24th century are a lot better than some of the ones now. However there are some prisons that look more like hotels or college dorms. Look up 'luxury prisons' on TH-cam
Geez Worf, keep up that talk and people will start to get the idea that Klingons had some sort bad experience with genetic tampering...
Yeah. Not like they messed with dna and required the help of a Denobulin doctor which thanks to their mistake caused them to loose their ridges. Nope
I would be more inclined to say that Worf shouldn't speak so loud about who is "allowed" to join Starfleet, as Klingons wouldn't have been allowed to join before the Federation-Klingon treaty, when they were in a state of perpetual war/cold war. Worf is very much the exception, himself, and it's at least a little hypocritical, if not illogical, to hold the opinion that exceptions prove the rule when Worf very much wants to be regarded as a "normal" Starfleet officer.
@@ayanithtalreign Logic is not the forte of the Klingons...
@@Teth47 they are basically witless romulans tbh
@@idkimlikereallybored9533 romulans have wit??
I can see the conversation now...
Garak: "So, Julian! You've been hiding it all this time!"
Julian: "Yes I have, it;s old news now Garak!"
Garak: "I just wanted to congratulate you for being so good at hiding it, you would have made an excellent Cardassian!"
Merri, Actually, instead he offers that cutting remark about Bashir's 'boyish smile' no longer being so boyish.
I like the theory that Garak knew all along and that's why he became friends with Bashir - because he knew he would have blackmail material if he needed it.
@@simplegarak True, but he also did respect Julian's mind. Like when he comments how there was hope for Julian yet when in that mind whatever it was I forget that his mind cast Garak as the villain.
@@JnEricsonx - True, but that isn't mutually exclusive to the idea either. ;)
@@simplegarak I always thought Garak could tell that Bashir was hiding something, but had no idea what he was hiding or why, which presented too much of a challenge to resist.
Wow. Adults sitting around a table having a thoughtful and rational discussion about GM ethics.
At least it's happening in Star Trek.
Give it a few hundred years...
In the meantime,
research:
"The Eugenics Wars:
The Rise and Fall of
Khan Noonien Singh ".
tejas
That’s something rather different...
I was just referring to science fiction.
That’s more in the fantasy department.
True or not,
the so-called illuminati live and die just like everybody else.
Then what?
The powers that be only have as much power as you give them.
In 1997
Academician100:
In 2374.
🖖🏿
Why not make superior offspring?
Julian's voice sounded so strained throughout this conversation, you can tell he's upset.
Pretty sure he was. The actor not the character. I understand one day they were just like "oh yeah you're a GMO now."
@@nsg_kuunda4786 yup he refused to learn the lines too. He was pissed off and it shows. That tension isnt acting, they feel bad for the actor.
@Azguard Mike 2013 not entirely sure where ya'll got this notion that Alexander Siddig was upset with the subject matter of the episode, seeing as how he's quoted saying this is one of his favorite episodes. Don't know why he would be upset about his character being GE when we all found out he was the previous season.
@@MrAce2493 TrekMovie has an article about how the actor tried all he could to sabotage the efforts of retro-writing his character to be an augment. You can enter in search terms and find it pretty easily.
@@MrAce2493 The episode isn't the problem. It's the character retconned that undermined the achievements of the characater
TNG gets all the glory, but DS9 tackles far more gray areas. That and the Actual Story Arcs made it my favorite Trek.
Oh i dont know. This topic is actually to a degree related to the question about AI and their role in society, which was covered with Data in TNG. One part was if Data, a machine, should have rights or if he should be treated like a toaster. The second part was about the consequences of creating more Datas, because that leads to the same problems as creating genetically superior humans. In both szenarios regular humans wont be able to compete and will eventually be driven into a evolutionary dead end. TNG and especially TOS did have those topics too.
Though i guess there never was an as shady starfleet captain as protagonist on the show. I mean Sisko for example leaked information to the Kardasians about an klingon attack (an ally after all) with a lot of consequenzes. He made an entiere planet unhabitable to neutralize the Marqui as a thread and he ordered Garak to drag the Romulans into a war (which basically cost them most of their fleet for no gain) they didnt want to join, by murdering an Romulan ambessador and his crew (and yes, as Garak pointed out later, Sisko was aware that it could come to this). Sisko is in many ways an anti-Picard.
Nog's character arc is amazing. From petty criminal to misogynist asshole to hero worshipping recruit to traumatised recluse to cool as a cucumber veteran
Let's be honest, Data and Patrick Stewart's accent carried TNG
@@Daniel-rd6st This is why Picard will always be a favourite. He was unwilling to compromise on his ideals no matter the cost. Sisko was pragmatic and if the series continued we would see how that one compromise led to many others.
@@Daniel-rd6st While the Federation is discriminatory against Both (AIs and Genetic Augments) they are far more so against Augments.
Data had to have a trial to stay in Starfleet, yes: but they still allowed him to join in the first place. (With the Federation knowing full well what he was.)
No such courtesy would've been give to Bashir if he had been honest.
"Some of my best friends are genetically modified mutants."
Hehe
gee, i like how after worf sees he has hurt bashir, he immediatley apoligzes in hi sown worf way.
Well, Worf does respect the good Doctor, and sees him as a valuable member of the senior staff.
Eat any good books?
"We're not excluding them, we're limiting their privileges"
I know, right? How much sense does that make?
Sounds horrible in every century. Especially the past three or four.
Bruh leave it to O’Brien and warcrime Sisko to euphemize excluding the enhanced from starfleet. 😂
Like imagine it from a historical context:
“We’re not excluding black people from sports, we’re just limiting their privileges!”
Indeed, right now universities using "Affirmative action policy" are limiting Asian students because statistically they do better...
@@TheJaguarthChannel they're letting de dumbest get in with low scores and exclude the ones with the highest test results. It's insulting to our collective intelligence.
I love it when people ask legitimately good and unanswerable questions.
I'm a little surprised by Worf. He's the one in the room with the closest relation to Julian growing up. Worf was stronger and tougher than other children to the point he killed one accidently. He's been evasive and has constantly held himself back physically in fear of repeating that tragedy. Julian has been hiding and holding back most of his superior physical and mental traits his whole life.
The saddest thing about all this is that this reflects reality today. with people who have special needs and skills, but it will soon become a common problem as the prospect of designer babies are slowly becoming a possibility.
Maybe that's why Worf was so quick to comment that parents would feel pressured to have their children enhanced. Worf spent a large part of his childhood not holding back; he knows what it's like to be light-years ahead of anyone else his age and he's seen how people can react to that.
Fawkes good point
Wolfs ability to relate is extremely limited. Klingons are not that much stronger than humans, in fact its proven many times in a one on one that humans have defeated klingons as many times as the other way around.
Klingons are however tougher, worf killed a kid when he was a kid when they collided heads and worfs tougher skull and protruding bones on his forehead did alot of damage to the human child resulting in death.
Augments or genetically enhanced humans are superior in all ways both physically and mentally and significantly superior by many many factors, so this is not quite the same thing and the reason why bashir ended up being annoyed with worfs comments.
Worf's problem is he's a very straight arrow follow the rules of honor type guy. Jadzia who has a few centuries of rule breaking and being a rebel under her belt should have been more sympathetic.
Or maybe scientists shouldn't play God in the first place.
Illustrates quite profoundly why DS9 was the shiniest gem in the Star Trek franchise to date. Brilliant cast and actors, challenging stories and topics. Screenwriting, camera, dialogues... all top notch.
I mean, lets be honest: agree with the policy or not, the reason they prohibited genetic tampering is solely because of historical trauma because of Khan and the Eugenics Wars, not because of unfair competition between enhanced and non-enhanced humans per se. There are hundreds of alien species in the Federation that enjoy superior mental and physical capacities than humans and "compete unfairly", and they're not excluded from Starfleet. The law is essentially an emotional reaction to something that could be likened to a Holocaust situation, which its bound to leave some scars in a society
It actually makes sense to prohibit genetic enhancement on ethical grounds. Just like it was said in this scene: they were kids, they didn't ask this to be done to them. Somebody decided on their behalf what they should be like what their limits and proclivities should be. This is tyranny. In order to discourage people from being tyrannical towards their own children ban included also the prohibition of career for enhanced people, rendering gained advantages useless.
Your argument about unfair competition is useless; different species have different sets of norms typical for their population and they cannot be judged by human standards of our population. However, within our population enhanced people would have an unfair advantage. What is fair is decided by the context of your evolutionary heritage.
What you said here is equivalent of this: "Well I don't see a reason why cheetah cannot run in Olympic sprints with humans". Makes no sense.
The genetic engineering - as used in this episode - is a metaphor for the steroid and performance-enhancing drugs in sporting. There is an argument to be made that free-use of drugs and medical enhancements would make the system more transparent....it is their bodies after all. The downside is that you know there are parents and adults out there who would abuse this medical technology and ruin the life of kids ...to say nothing of some governments - children's bodies are far more adaptable to medical alteration than adults, after al, not to mention their suggestive-prone minds unable to form a risk-benefit analysis in what we consider a proper "decision-making" mindset.
if thats metaphor for steorids and similar stuff, then it is poorly done, because it speaks about changing core of your existence in a way that is incomparable with performance enhancing drugs.
@@Zarrov I don't think that Heitor's assessment re: Khan and the Eugenics Wars is inaccurate, though. And I think it's a bit hypocritical to defend refusing the possibility of a career for humans genetically modified without their consent immediately after calling those non-consensual modifications "tyranny". Why should they be punished for their own parents committing crimes against them? (As for your argument about standards, I find that too complicated to go in-depth on, so I'll settle with saying that as someone born with a permanent mental disorder, complaining about "unfair advantages" seems pretty fucking arbitrary to me. Y'all were born lucky.)
Whats complex about realizing that different species of organisms have different sets of norms of their performance, behaviour etc.? Cucumber is not a banana, and thats it. Thats not rocket science. You cannot expect cucumber to perform in the same categories equally as banana. And as for your experience-exceptions and errors are not a rule and they do not invalidate the rule. As for tyranny-you are putting in my mouth something I didnt said. I explained aspects of genetic modification that are almost never considered in TV science fiction, creating fallacies in peoples minds thinking about it. I never said that this ban on career-making is good. I explained rationale behind it.
I love scenes like this the most in Star Trek. Something about seeing the officers act more like people and debate each other, share moments, made them better to me.
This is a good part of why I like DS9. They don't sweep the difficult questions under the run nearly as often as other series' do.
The irony being that Worf (the strawman as usual) is a Klingon and physically stronger and tougher than humans in his original line of work (Security). Nearby sits Jadzia, who was "augmented" (as an adult!) by having a centuries-old symbiont put into her body that gives her access to the knowledge and experience of other hosts before her. Meanwhile, the Federation allows the Vulcans (nearly as physically strong and intellectually capable as Augments) and Betazoids (long-range telepaths!) to serve in Starfleet.
So why doesn't *that* cause pressure for the parents of humans to have their children genetically-augmented? It is a peculiar argument, that humans with enhanced abilities would create such "pressure", but being having to work with aliens with enhanced abilities does not. It gets even funnier when one remembers that Worf was raised among humans, which means that he enjoyed physical superiority over other kids his age, as well as over human Starfleet cadets!
***** ... that's actually a very sound point you have there. If anything, humans should have genetic re-sequencing compulsory, lest they want their race to be left on the sidelines of evolutionary race
Observer29830
Well, in-show they work around this by making non-human or mixed-species crewmembers be very rare, so that the humans can shine. In TOS Spock was actually the *only* Vulcan in Starfleet! By TNG we saw other Vulcans milling around as extras, but they were never used even in situations where they would have been very useful. Likewise, Deanna Troi, a half-human/half-Betazoid with only limited telepathic abilities, was the only representative of her species out of the thousand or so crew of the Enterprise-D. Putting a full-Betazoid with capabilities like Deanna's mother Lwaxana aboard would have ruined countless plots, as they would have been able to detect intrigues and even sensed cloaked enemy starships with ease.
So humanity gets a free pass, most of the time, based on the fact that Starfleet is almost entirely human. Thus they get to show how awesome they are without needing special abilities. Although VOY broke this somewhat, as they depended heavily on the Doctor (a hologram programmed with *all* of the Federation's medical knowledge) and Seven-of-Nine (who still had numerous cybernetic enhancements even after being liberated from the Borg, as well as the vast knowledge she had absorbed during her time in the Collective).
***** Actually in TOS there was a star-ship populated completely by Vulcans. It was destroyed, if I recall by the giant space amoeba.
3675Chandra
But it wasn't a *Starfleet* ship. The Vulcans were still prone to doing their own separate space exploration back then. That's why Spock was considered notable in having joined Starfleet.
***** doesnt each respective member world still maintain their own fleets?
Do people actually dislike Julian? I've always really liked him, especially after the reveal of his past.
It made some of his early actions and the way he acted make more sense. You realize he was putting up a front so no one would notice he was enhanced. Kind of like how Clark Kent acts all clumsy and nerdy so no one can see Superman in him.
Yeah, early DS9 Bashir was outright annoying at some points, like when he was in a Runabout with Kira, who was trying to meditate, and he kept talking and doing weird noisy breathing techniques.
I really preferred Bashir, before they made just another Spock/Data like character out of him minus the super strenght.
Watch Season one.
He becomes much more likable in retrospect after you learn more about him. It's good writing.
Doctor Bashir is one of the best characters. Both well written and well acted.
I don't like him
I loved a blurb on the Star Trek Online cyborg bridge officer. It talks about how augmentation is banned for humans, but exceptions exist on those that got augmented but have no criminal record and are very productive/useful so the "augment" bit gets erased from their record.
The thing that struck me most was how it specifically pointed out "human augments" as being banned, so I of course dabbled with the idea of an Andorian who was augmented for one of my bridge officers lol.
I miss playing that game, got a bunch of characters, but I haven't played in 6 years plus. Tried logging in for a bit some months ago, and I have no idea what I'd do. It was a fun game though.
An entire room of exceptions.. talking about exceptions.. DS9 for the metawin
How are each individual in the room an exception? Just curious
@@austinmajor3288
SIsko: Emissary of the prophets
Dax: 700 year old symbiote
Odo: only changeling to have killed another changeling.
Worf: First Klingon in starfleet
Kira & O'brien: actually relatively normal.
@@ummdustry5718 ah okay, thank you:)
I asked the question 9 months ago and an answer was born today XD
@@austinmajor3288 " better late than never " I guess? lol
Remember when Star Trek used to be about people talking about ethics and solving problems with science? Good times.
It's a wonder how humans are able to compete with Vulcans when they're doing doctoral level math and ethical philosophy courses in their prepubescent years. Not to mention their superior physical abilities. And yet no one limits the career options of Vulcans.
Because Vulcans have their own weaknesses. Due to low birth rate and environmental factors on their barren homeworld (have we EVER seen a Vulcan household with more than one child?) the Vulcans are heavily outnumbered by humans, much less humans plus the rest of the Federation races. They also are extremely rigid and somewhat socially awkward as a group, and their society has been in decline for hundreds of years before they joined the Federation.
we think Vulcans are all that, because Spock was all that. But the only other Vulcan we've seen that was really anywhere near as much of a badass as Spock is Spock's own father. So our judgment if Vulcans is not based on a representative sample, since the Vulcan we most know and recognize happens to be one of the best examples the species has to offer.
Vulcans are not Supermen. Spock was just that good at Vulcaning. He had an energetic human side that allowed him to overcome the torpor of his dying society and human companions to keep him on his toes and fight off traditional Vulcan complacency. The result was an epic figure of a Vulcan because human influence either countered, or forced him to overcome, his species' traditional weaknesses.
"Take Me Out to the Holosuite" suggests Vulcans, as rule, possess superior hand-eye coordination, stamina, speed, and strength to humans and several other races.
As to Vulcans being less reproductive: Tuvok had four children. Spock had a half-brother.
Vulcans may be better educated, but they lack human imagination and creativity. They'll try every logical option first, humans will follow a hunch.
Not everyone thinks Vulcan society is on the decline or is dying. Just because you do not see a Vulcan family with two kids does not mean they do not exist. If Vulcan males HAVE to mate every seven Earth yrs (they can mate outside of it but not everyone chooses that) more then one child can be produced. Vulcans are still stronger then Humans. Starfleet is a Human dominated org. But that has seemed to be changing by the time the 24th century arrives. "Vulcaning" is not a word in the English dictionary. Perhaps before you start turning your arrogant nose uo at ANOTHER species, you should consider mastering your English...and checking your Human centric point of view. If I was your Starfleet commaning officer, I would order you to spend months doing community service among Vulcans to open your eyes AND your HEART.
Vulcan emotions run deep-much more so then Humans. They almost killed themselves as aspecies over the lack of self control and they tend to go to extremes as a species without logic.
i love these moments, actual discusion about the topic and actual points being made for all sides
And the poor guy has to sit at that table why they talk about that like that, and you see he just wants to shrink into his seat...
The thing is Bashir is not better than everyone. Is he better than Obrien at fixing a warp nacelle? Is Bashir able to physically defend himself from a Klingon like Worf or even a large human being like Riker or Sisko? Will Bashir ever be as good a Captain as Picard, which has nothing to do with augmentation and everything to do with personal ability to be a good leader. It is all relative to various degrees.
True, Julian might not be an exceptional fighter or diplomat. he was only augmented to have superior intelligence and hand/eye coordination. But in those fields he has an unfair advantage, like when he was able to beat o'brien at darts. where o'brien is an experienced and skilled player. Like wise if Julian had been augmented to have superior strength, it would give him an unfair advantage in events were he could exploit his augmented strength
That's what they never cover in Star Trek. There are many ways to be better than other people. Being enhanced only gives him advantages in some ways.
Why is it "unfair"?
There is no unfair in war. You put the best people in a position to do their best. I'm not surprised that the Dominion War had the Federation testing the waters with augments again. If the Think Tank had gone better, how could they have resisted going full bore on genetic augmentation, especially since they were fighting an enemy that fully embraced genetic augment clones.
I was shocked that Section 31 didn't kidnap them and secure them away in some secluded area to mine them for ideas during the war.
"we're not trying to exclude them, we're just talking about limiting what they are allowed to do."
that's literally the same fucking thing.
"we're not trying to exclude them, we're just considering laws that would keep them out of certain fields and jobs, which it totally different from excluding them, because excluding them would be keeping them out of certain fields and jobs with rules, while WE on the other hand are just trying to keep them out of certain fields and jobs with rules
Good old "Distinction without a difference"
Seeing as nearly every major cast member of TNG has proven themselves wholly incapable of this kind of adult discourse on hot topic issues, it's all the more fitting this happened on Deep Space Nine
Bull shit. Remember the episode where data’s sentience and rights were on trial?
I find it interesting that Kira and Dax are the two people who keep the most quiet in this conversation. Breakdown: Worf, whose people suffered a loss of headridges due to DNA tampering, and who was raised on Earth, is very set against it. Miles, also raised on earth, a petty officer who will always be technically lower than Doctor Bashir in rank and probably won't ever outrank him, same opinion, but probably for more personal reasons. Sisko, calmer, and a lot more understanding, also raised on Earth, listening to all the arguments. Odo giving important information, and lets be honest, he would be quite educated about anything related to Starfleet or Federation law. The first thing he would have done would be go check the Federation records after Bashir's parents confessed what happened. This leaves us with the only other two people not raised on Earth, Kira, who lived under the occupation and has an experience of being oppressed for having different 'Bajoran' genes so to speak. And Dax, who lived through the whole Trill coming out thing (during Curzon's time I'm guessing?) and probably faced a lot of backlash from people about the symbiont, especially after what happened during TNG's whole parasitic organisms taking over Starfleet thing. So the two quietest people in the conversation would probably be the most sympathetic.
I know this is an extremely late reply to your comment, but I just wanted to say that it was very insightful and made me reconsider the whole scene. Re-watching it, I just noted how after O'Brien's comment about engineered people making normal people look bad, Jadzia gives a somewhat polite smile. After all, she's the most 'enhanced' person in the room; Bashir might have genius level intelligence and enhanced co-ordination but the Dax symbiote gives her the combine knowledge and experience of hundreds of years, including those of an exceptionally skilled pilot and a galaxy-renowned diplomat.
Such great actors in DS9. Good writing too.
That is dead on. I can totally see Garak's expression when I read those lines. And the last part is the highest compliment Garak could give to Julian.
Imagine knowing that your coworker is genetically engineered, and at least if you're Miles knowing that it was a significant source of trauma for him and still talking in this way.
I don't think anyone was being callous. No one wanted to upset Julian, but the discussion was necessary and it was better to have it in the open rather than behind Julian's back. They were showing Julian respect by trusting that he could handle the discomfort, rather than everyone carefully tailoring or entirely avoiding the discussion so that Julian could be comfortable. That's maturity.
As Arnold Rimmer once said, “It was because I didn’t have the right knobbing parents!” 😅
Wish we had seen more of these talking moments in DS9 but either way I feel the show is a masterpiece
i remember as a kid i used to think that if genetic modification was possible it would be an imperative to use it to make humanity better but when i grew up and watched this scene it really made me wonder if i was considering the ramifications of such a thing…
And yet! If we can eliminate many genetic diseases and spare people untold suffering, isn't it an immoral choice not to do so? More, since people with genetic defects are now surviving with modern medicine, isn't it a good assumption that our genes are not staying constant, but getting less healthy on the average?
@@kennethkellogg6556 i agree it would be immoral to not stop suffering especially if you’re in a position to do so. i suppose great care would have to be taken in ensuring genetic engineering is only used in treating disease and genetic “defects” but we coming across certain philosophical questions. for instance a blind person wouldn’t exist, does blindness preclude a person from living a full life? does a person with autism or down syndrome have nothing to offer society? who can access this technology everyone? or just those who can afford it? would society eventually place more value on a modified person vs a unmodified person? some of these questions come dangerous close to eugenics and they would have to be answered if we developed dna modification
In the Star Trek story/lore: The history of the Eugenics Wars and their results ending with the start of WWIII was enough to bring humanity to the brink of self-annihilation. It that sting of what humans let happen and the horrors that we did to ourselves, which has made even the ideal of human genetic resequencing and augmentation simply off limits. That's why Human society and by extension, Starfleet, takes such a Hardline stance against such genetic activity to the point where they appear callous and unforgiving, even to the very children that were the unintended consequences of such work. That being said, Dr. Bashir is right, you can't just simply abandoned them and ostracized the children of such a difficult situation; but the Human authority and Starfleet are also right, with one extension, they take such a Hardline stance only because they believe we as humans don't have the ability to control ourlseves enough in their life time to keep genetic augmentation and resequencing from again becoming what it once was, a threat to the very existence to humanity. However, I'd argue that there is plenty of options and help with such an issue, so that they can overcome this issue, especially with the guidance, of so many truly helpful races in the federation for assistance in scientific reasearch, study and experimentation, to not only help to advance humanity genetically, but to bring about a more stable world for those children, who are in effect, left behind by the current society; due to the very nature of their conception that was done without their choice.
There is so much pain in Julian's voice. My heart is breaking.
Man the characters are oblivious to Julian in this scene.
That's what makes it a good one; they're actually talking as people when there isn't a pressing crisis.
People have trouble seeing their own prejudices. Why this scene - and episode - stuck with me from the original broadcast run.
(Christ I'm old...)
@DriftZ TwoSeven No, it's prejudice based on over-generalization. Supporting banning anyone who has had their genes re-sequenced from certain jobs because centuries ago some people were genetically engineered to be strong, aggressive strategic genius combat specialists, and then did exactly what they were designed to do, just on their own behalf instead of their designers'? Julian was treated to fix learning disabilities and neurological deficits, and ended up smarter and quicker than most humans instead of just restored to baseline (unintentional, the treatment just worked better than expected). That is not even close to comparable to the people who designed Khan and what their intentions were, nor what their results were. Julian would have been pre-judged, not on his own merits, but on assumptions based on comparing him to someone based on a category they both technically fit into. That would be like banning all Austrians from, say, running for political office, because of the existence of Adolf Hitler. Not all Nazis (a measure of choice and character) but all Austrians (a measure of genetic/ethnic heritage).
It makes perfect sense though. It's "I have black friends" with an Augment. Julian isn't someone who received genetic enhancements to them. He's Julian Bashir to them first, foremost, and last. To them he's family and his genetic augmentations don't matter. They see the person before the subject of the conversation. They know him, know that he's *not* Khan Noonien Singh. That doesn't mean they're comfortable with every enhanced person.
@DriftZ TwoSeven Yes, I'm absolutely happy to judge a Nazi based on their choice to claim adherence and loyalty to the Nazi party. Absolutely. They have willingly joined a group with abhorrent policies and beliefs, and a heritage of mass murder, horror, racism, and general desecration of their own humanity. I am completely comfortable with judging them accordingly. Anyone claiming to be a Nazi who isn't one is a plain idiot, but if they want to self-identify as a Nazi (without technically being one), that still tells me what a fetid necrotic wasteland their mind and soul has become just as clearly as card-carrying party membership.
What kind of an absolutely clueless buffoon would think that a Nazi should be treated as if they were a member of just any general sort of social club or political party, instead of someone who basically thinks Hitler was an alright chap with some whiz-bang ideas for how to run a society???
I actually have to credit Star Trek Enterprise for making this episode make more sense. I was confused why genetic manipulation would be so abhorrent to Star Fleet, especially when it seeks out new life and new civilizations, but the Enterprise episode, The Augments, made this episode a lot more understandable.
I love the Vulcan Chess set in the background. Some nice continuity from TOS.
I will say Bashir really fell flat for me the first season and some of the second but he really found his footing and made a strong character, and while the characterization he goes through in the GM character episodes is important it just feels as if he’s done or doesn’t care. It’s one thing for his character to develop some kind of depression over the war but he’s just sitting there and it feels like he can barely get the words out
I feel like you go through the level of trauma that Bashir does in general, and in that episode specifically hoping he can make a difference and then having his hopes dashed, and more or less having his friends say there's nothing to be done, it's kinda understandable he would dissociate cuz the feelings would be painful
Aww--our own little Khan.
Can you imagine a conversation this nuanced in Discovery?
Yeah of course
Kurtzman: Whats a conversation? Just have a bunch gun-ho drug addicts firing phasers and asking questions later and being assholes to everyone.
@@dunmermage Clearly haven't watched the show. 😑
@@morrigangg I did. Season one and two and the first episode of three. It's a badly written show that has nothing to do with Star Trek. The plot is dumb and simplistic, the characters are stupidly annoying and unsympathetic, the space battles are an absolute mess in which they just crammed as many special effects as they could.
They also completely disregard the source material, with Kurtzman and other members of the production team never have watched star trek. They made their own edgy action sci-fi and used the Star Trek brand as nothing more than marketing.
@avshzj Clearly you havent watched the show. Literally the entire opening arc envolves vulcans of all people war mongering. The show is complete garbage that has nothing in common with real star trek.
The show is as "nuanced" in its agenda as clubbing someone over the head with a book called The Patriarchy.
The Federation's stance on genetic engineering always struck me as incongruous. I understand that catastrophic wars were fought over eugenics, but the arguments that parents of unaugmented children would feel pressured to compete, or that the augmented would necessarily persecute the unaugmented, never really rang true: we're talking about a society that has organically eliminated the vices of the human experience, from poverty to prejudice, yet they just gave up on this one? A society in which any number of races stronger and even smarter than humans coexist with humans already? If genetically engineered people aren't allowed to join Starfleet, they're second-class citizens. The concept of second-class citizens doesn't gel with Trek's Earth at all.
I don't mean to say that I think this is a bad idea. The issue is complicated, and exposes some moral contradictions in the Federation (or at least Earth, or Starfleet) that are fun to think about, but the weight of that contradiction goes mostly unexplored.
This is why I really wish Star Trek: Picard had been written about genetic engineering instead of artificial intelligence. The notion that the Federation would ban AI research wholesale based on fear after one (admittedly major) incident of obvious tampering feels slipshod and forced; the notion that they would "enslave" legions of synths for menial labour in the first place, while not unprecedented, disregards the moral conclusions of multiple legacy episodes and that contradiction isn't addressed; and the notion of Troi and Riker's child dying of a "silicon-based virus" that could only be cured through AI-adjacent research might be the most contrived plot point in all of Star Trek.
If the series was about genetic engineering instead, then: we already have a centuries-old ban on GM research, it's oppressive and it's (at least partly) based in fear, so you still get to wax political about persecuted groups and make it work organically in-universe; you get to explore the moral foundation of the Federation without disregarding the show's legacy; and Troi and Riker's child can just die or otherwise suffer from a less ludicrous condition that could have been treated if genetic resequencing was legal.
I suppose they wouldn't have been able to dance on Data's grave this way, but maybe we could have had a Bashir cameo.
A major theme of DS9 for me was that even the Federation is run by flawed people. For all that they are *on the whole* a humane and decent society, they're still subject to weakness, including the occasional inane prejudice like this one. Racism and sexism are but memories of a bygone age--but gosh are superhumans scary. Is it rational to punish a good man like Bashir, who obviously has a lot to offer, for something his parents did to him? No. But the Federation is made of people. So they're not going to be 100% rational on every issue all the time.
As a side note, these guys are being really crappy friends to Bashir in this scene. O'Brien, I'm looking at you. "Let's hope they don't become too productive," indeed. Like, "Haha, BFF, I know your entire life has been a struggle to find a way to safely express your innate gifts in a way that doesn't creep out normal people, and that you'd probably have been spared a massive amount of fear and self-loathing if you just could've lived openly, but that idea kind of intimidates me so screw you."
Luna Stone ever saw augments storyline in Enterprise you know the truth! superior abilities produce superior ambitions! they won't control themselves! no attempt to control them has worked! it literally is them or us!
Except Bashir exists. And his greatest ambition is basically to be a really good doctor, and maybe be recognized for being a really good doctor. Which isn't much of a threat to galactic stability, if you ask me. The augments in Enterprise came from a completely different scientific and social context than the augments in DS9. The genetic modifications 24th-century kids received are almost certainly not the same as the modifications given to people in the eras of Khan and Arik Soong, and maybe even more importantly, they weren't given for the same reason. The people who made Khan wanted a superhuman. Bashir's parents were just terrified of disability.
The augments in Enterprise were literally from the same batch that Khan and his followers came from. Their designers specifically created them to be abnormally aggressive. If superior ability breeds superior ambition, then why haven't Vulcans and Betazoids seized control of the Federation? Or is it just that *humans* cannot be trusted?
DS9 kind of showed that even though humans had made great strides they were still flawed creatures. No one is perfect no matter how far we've moved over the years. It's why I liked it better then any of the other Star Trek shows.
DS9 for me showed that, while people in the Federation were not perfect, those problems only showed what the Federation was as a whole. It's like we are now - There are racists, sexists, and bigots... there are those who wish to hold others down for their own gain... there are those who would rather destroy than create... but as a whole, the human race is innovative, caring, and longs for a connection with others. Most people are good people, and the bad ones only serve to spotlight who the good ones are.
It was a tough dilemma. On the one hand if they continue to limit those who were enhanced, then they are punishing innocent people, victims of their parents choices...
But on the other hand, if they do not limit them, then there are many parents out there who would gladly sacrifice their own careers and promise just to give their children the best possible chance at... well, everything.
I almost think there has to be some kind of affirmative action for humans because of all the advantages the other species have. Vulcans in particular ought to dominate the upper echelons of Star Fleet. Setting aside the fact they are both intellectually and physically superior to humans in every way, the simple fact that they can tap into centuries of experience over the course of they're incredible lifespans ought to make them invaluable.
Every crew in Star Fleet, especially warships, ought to also have Betazoids aboard. While some species are immune to telepathy, they seem to be exceptions rather than the rule. I cannot possibly understate how much of an immense tactical and strategic advantage one could gain by being able to read an enemy's mind.
Then there is the matter of Data. It's only a matter of time before someone else manages to replicate Soong's work. How many problems were solved aboard the Enterprise by virtue of Data alone? Having a tireless super-being aboard every ship would be extremely useful.
So, all that being said, I fail to see why it would be such a terrible thing to let people enhance their children. It's not as if people the people who choose to remain natural will starve or wallow in poverty. Plus, I thought the whole philosophical underpinnings of the Federation was personal growth for the betterment of everyone?
You may be underplaying human advantages with regards to other species. Vulcans as you say live longer, but that may have the unintended effect of hindering technical innovation and social evolution. As for the use of Betazoids and androids, they are still beings with individual desires and motivations. They addressed this partly in TNG's "Measure of a Man". Can you conscript or force sentient beings into Starfleet service, and can you necessarily trust that they would serve Federation interests at the expense of another species?
The vulcans would dominate, but I don't think they are very good at getting along with people from other races. Usually they serve on vulcan only ships. In Enterprise the humans were put in charge simply because they got along with everybody, maybe that's why humans dominate star fleet? Or maybe most crews are mostly from one species, like you have a ship that is mostly humans, one that is mostly andorans etc.
(The real reason is that they wanted to save time and money on makeup though)
Betazoids seem to have difficulty in Starfleet based on a couple of social issues: the privacy concerns/paranoia of non-telepathic species, and the social awkwardness caused by the general Betazoid insistence on complete honesty (an almost unavoidable occurrence for a species of telepaths). Little white lies and other socially-lubricating customs are somewhere between alien and distasteful to them, and that can be disruptive to other species' emotional equilibrium. Look at the effect that Lwaxanna Troi has on Jean-Luc Picard for a salient example.
@@woodrobin Were the Betazoids telepaths (mind readers) or empaths (readers of emotions)? There's a huge differene between reading thoughts and reading emotions, though both would be highly intrusive to people who could do neither. Until her latter appearances on DS9, I couldn't stomach Lwaxanna Troi at all. Not only did she not respect anyone's privacy, she deliberately used her ability to embarrass and manipulate others, which I cannot excuse on the basis of culture or anything else.
This is off-topic, but the Starfleet uniforms of this era were the best in terms of looks.
Here's the thing........ they're ALL correct! :\ Gotta love DS9..... no simple answers..... such is life in the real world. Such is TRUE Star Trek!
It is a shame that is not the case now, more and more dissenting opinions or those that are contradictory to what is mainstream are seen as troublesome and disruptive regardless of the argument and the facts or logic presented.
@@williammerkel1410 Because the wrong people are in charge.
DS9.
Best Trek Show.
THIS is how you do social commentary in a drama. If this episode were made today, Julian would look straight down the camera and talk uninterrupted for 12 minutes about how sad he feels because he’s so innately awesome but society keeps oppressing him, and then all the other characters would just instantly agree with his point of view.
Character, conflict, consequences. Take note, contemporary writers.
this is why i love DS9
Just remember Julian's superior intelligence cured a planet of a Dominion plague (s04e24 "The Quickening")
Some of this is reminiscent of the dialogue in Falcon and the Winter Soldier, how Zemo's concern of people becoming Super-Soldiers makes them feel as supremacists. Even when it's commented to him that Steve was never that way, he admits that's true, but that to the best of his knowledge, NO ONE else has ever been like him. Even Bucky isn't the same.
i find this scene weird because it tries to say that the reason that genetic engineering is banned is because the people who received the augments would have an unfair advantage but the true reason it is banned is because of khan an augmented human who tried to conquer and overthrow the federation because he believed himself and others like him to be the superior beings and deserved to rule over those he viewed as being beneath him which was everybody. so it was actually banned because of racism.
Remember the episode with Julius being found out, it goes further back than the time of TOS and Khan Singh. Its in reference to the Eugenics war where there were multiple augments who were trying to dominate the world in the 1990s, one of whom was the same Khan Singh. These people held high positions of power and treated "normals" as piles of crap. It ended with the slaughter of 37 million people. And after the end of the eugenics war, it also in part started the worst war of all Earth history World War III. This war lasted 30 years wiping out 600 million people. You can see why the Federation feared augmentation because nothing good came from it.
"Your on this counsel. But we do not grant you the rank of Master."
What Worf should have said was that Julian is an exception because he chose to use his gifts the right way, he wasn't overly ambitious, didn't use his enhancements for nefarious purposes, and above all didn't perceive other humans as inferior or undeserving of existence like a certain other genetically enhanced despot. He was the best case scenario, but if more like him exist, there's too great a risk that at least one of them may be the opposite.
:::points to discussions in Falcon and the Winter Soldier:::
the continuity in star trek is amazing. The eugenics war was a throw away line from "space seed" in 1967 nearly 30 years prior to this scene.
It also helped to connect why Klingons in the original series looked so different from these Klingons. If you watched Star Trek Enterprise they actually tried to give a decent explanation for the drastic change and it was connected to the Eugenics War.
Julian: Oh God, curse my genetically enhanced brain, rugged good looks and sophisticated British accent!
Don't forget when he got a slap on the wrist for lying to Starfleet about his genetic enhancements when he should have received dishonorable discharge. Bashir's whining is even more obnoxious than usual.
Where are these kind of talks in modern star trek ? I miss them.
How did we go from this to Discovery and Picard S 1-2?
The problem is that all of them are right simultaneously. Each of these concerns is valid. You have to make a trade.
Because the idea of what is "good" grows old and stale as new things become possible for good and for ill.
Do we turn every baby into mutants? Do we let the rich buy better babies? Do we forbid it and punish the innocent?
CHOOSE. You don't get out of this conundrum while remaining the culture you were before.
And here's the worst part: Pandora's box will always have another Pandora's box inside it, whatever else comes out.
There will never be a time when there isn't such a choice forced upon you.
While I believe that fundamental morality never changes, so in that sense "right" and "wrong" don't change, it is true that with every scientific and medical advancement in what it is possible to do, new ethical and legal questions arise, a new Pandora's Box opens and has to be dealt with. Unfortunately, ethics and the law are always lagging a decade or several behind, and a lot of moral and legal chaos results.
Looking back on this story arc it seems so utterly improbable that in the 24th century we'll all still be natural born humans, let alone that humanity could effect any such ban without effectively privileging people who secretly break it. Wish they'd found a more realistic way of talking about the ideas and ideals involved but I guess the original Khan arc made it all irrevocably canon.
yeah I always disliked the way they basically turned the idea of improving ourselves through genetic alteration as some sort of catalyst for a dystopian order of Khans. with survival of the fittest taken out of our evolution through social and economic benefits the only way for us to change for the better is too do it ourselves, always felt star trek dropped the ball when it came to this idea.
I think they could have gotten away with a token nod to post-humanity without an expensive cast of supermen, they just went with a reactionary naturalistic fallacy instead. I'd rather they'd skipped over the idea entirely.
The Culture is probably the best attempt at post-scarcity/post-humanity I know of. Seconded.
CunySark exactly. I doubt people would just quietly be okay with them literally restricting scientific freedom in the future.
You guys aren't seeing the forest for the trees. Star Trek scientists use genetic therapy all the time, it's part of their standard suite of treatments. They've just found through sad history that nearly every attempt to take genetic treatments beyond therapy into augmentation created monsters.
Turning a child to a potential literal monster because of parental consent is an act of monstrosity in itself, of course that's banned.
people are already monsters, that we might be able to get sharper claws through genetic tampering wouldnt make much of a difference as long as it was open to everyone. the real danger is creating a class of people above others, which is most likely how it will go down in reality until the ones without die out from age or genocide.
You'd think that Lethean who plumbed the depths of Bashir's mind for all his deep seeded psychological issues and juicy secrets would have stumbled across the whole 'genetically augmented' thing though, wouldn't you? ;)
I think he did, didn't he? It's been a while, but I think I remember him taunting Bashir with that exam question he threw in order to be 2nd, instead of 1st in his class. I *think* I remember him suggesting that he only did it, because he knew in advance the classmate who would be 1st didn't want to take his assignment on DS9, because she had an assignment picked out.
@@tzaphkielconficturus7136 Right but that was played entirely as Bashir just having a "fear of success". Not him trying to hide his familial criminality, which you'd think would be a knife the Lethean would have enjoyed twisting in his gut a bit.
I wish Data was part of DS9. His character would've grown so much.
👍good one makes for a good argument meet episode
Who the hell clicks on a DS9 clip and leaves a dislike!? What a piece of veQ.
voyager and enterprise fans
It was Q. That is my only guess.
cfh0384 perhaps they didn't like the fact that Star Trek had a generally negative stance on genetic engineering. No, it wasn't me. But I certainly don't agree with that. The writer of any series has the right to do as they please, whether they want enhancement to be a tool for heroism (like Captain America) or for villainy (like Kahn). But that doesn't mean I'd agree with it.
It's both, but the Federation thought it over and decided that the damage from super villains isn't worth the benefit of super heroes. Especially because one individual augment supervillian nearly broke the planet in Earth's earlier history.
hagamapama right, but I'm saying that I still don't agree that the entire technology should be banned because of some bad incidents with it. Think of if they had banned transporter technology because a crazed dictator who got access to it first used it to cause havoc. Would that be fair to the rest of the population? I don't think so.
The only time there was a scene like this in TNG, was when mutiny was being considered, as their captain...wasnt the captain.
intriguing
Remember when Star Trek raised interesting ethical questions? Those were the days ...
I Remember this part
I wonder when the writers/producers of DS9 decided to make Bashir genetically enhanced? From the beginning? Or right about the time of this episode? I am guessing the latter.
It's an intriguing story line. And one humanity will probably have to face one day (if it survives long enough).
The hints were always there. He was second in his class (due to a trick question that he admittedly whiffed on) in the Academy. He was able to bring a dead man back to life. He has extensive medical knowledge even during the early days of DS9. He was kicking himself when he couldn't come up with a cure for an incurable disease engineered by the Dominion. He has always shown hints of brilliance above other doctors in the Star Trek universe. Does that necessarily mean they've always had this in mind for his character? Probably not. But it wasn't like he was suddenly thrust into that kind of role.
Some of the writers and producers and the actor himself have stated that this storyline was quite literally last minute. The reveal happens in "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?" and even in the episode immediately preceding that, they had no idea they were going to do it. It does fit incredibly well retrospectively with the mythos they'd already seeded throughout the series, but that wasn't planned from the beginning
@@kirazalea5234 Sid talked about this yesterday during the SidCity Zoom meeting-He only found out about his character being enhanced when they handed him the script to be read that day! He was like "Wait...what?"
When I was 7 Years Old My Brain Chemistry derailed.
When I was 31 Years Old despite My altered Brain Chemistry, the Australian Army sought to put Me into the Uniform of an Australian Military Police Colonel, not because I had Disabilities but despite “that I had Disabilities” because they saw that I had Skill and Talents in Military Planning, which they wanted to take advantage of.
Regrettably I was too ‘short sighted’ in and of Myself, to see how donning a Uniform would benefit Me later in Life.
Today I’d be a Retired Army Officer and not just a Retired Civilian.
So good
1:39 Sisko's badge is crooked and it's not due to cloth folding.
I love the fact that the general consensus of the discussion, is there is no right answer. Things were done, but not properly. Things that shouldn't have been done, were done, but who do you punish? I love how it gets to the core of things, the fact is they would have an advantage, if able to coexist and be productive. But how do you nerf someone potential to equalize the field for others? And there isn't a good answer, This is great writing, not the feelings slop they do today
*Most people arguing against enhancement in this scene are themselves objectively super-human:*
1. Worf, a Klingon, who is physically stronger/tougher and works in security.
2. Dax, a bonded Trill, who uses centuries of experience from an adult enhancement procedure in her role as a science officer.
3. Commander Sisko, who is "The Emissary" mystically blessed by "The Prophets."
4. Odo, who is an immortal changeling.
... and then there's Major Kira and Chief O'Brien. What a strange context for this conversation.
@Ij999 People are just like that though. You're right, they should have more empathy for him but they don't because of the stigma against genetic engineering.
To all those commenting Worf's words: remember - Worf has LIFTIME of practicing RESTRAINT. Also, he's not ... argumented as far as HIS species is concerned.
Never mind that time the enterprise d came along to that planet of the genetically engineered kids and Pulaski nearly died... funny how that was allowed ..
I wondered about that too-Federation, you can't have it both ways! On the one hand, they ban genetic enhancements for kids born with birth defects(unless it's life-or-death situations) and then on the other hand, they have a station lab allowing scientists creating superkids who can move objects telekinetically, and worst of all, ward off illnesses with their super immunity by messing up others' DNA, causing them to age and die!
At least the former didn't cause a dangerous contagion!
@@nancyomalley9959 Kinda sad when you think about it, If the ban on Genetic Engineering wasn't a thing, Geordi wouldn't have had to spend most of his life in constant pain from using the VISOR and later on Ocular Implants. His Blindness could have potentially been corrected in-utero and would have improved his quality of life, but instead the Ban on Genetic resequencing meant that Geordi's blindness was considered "Incurable"
Seeing the problems this caused for the other enhanced children that grew up in an institution, perhaps THAT is why there is a ban. Julian was the exception because he got to grow up like a typical child.
I think I can understand what Worf was trying to say, especially when you consider how other Augments have acted, including Khan and Jack. Bashir doesn't hold himself as superior to others.
I've always wondered what would have happened if Bashir's parents met the changeling version of him.
Must be tough being better then everyone else.
And what would the Discovery Crew do? Likely cry until Burnham then saved them from dealing with a discussion.
Interesting storyline considering the college admission scandal.
Wow, I would've never considered how applicable that is.
Tact is not Worf's strong suit is it?
Genetic variation is important. As time changes, so does the need for different variants. Expression may be hidden then be just the difference required for any population.. eg.. I bet there is someone out there with the perfect antibody system which counteracts the COVID 19 yet to be discovered.
OH YEAH
BASHIR'S LIVING A NORMAL LIFE
2 times replaced by a
CHANGELING
Julian is a far better man than I. If I were told by Starfleet that I would never advance in rank (and thus never be allowed to, say, become head of Starfleet Medical and make policy changes that could help billions) and Sloan wanted me to join Section 31 I would say yes. After all, my intellect could be used to its fullest to benefit the people of the Federation. Even if the vast majority of Starfleet would never know who I was or what I did the upper echelons of Starfleet Command would and they would have to acknowledge that they not only underestimated my talent but constrained me in such a way that they effectively forced me to abandon everything the Federation stood for in order to save it. Section 31 is a shadow organization, free of Starfleet Command's control, so by trying to contain my supposed threat to societal order at large they lost all control of me and what I could do.
I'm surprised Sloan didn't try to abduct the Institute Augments and use them for counter-intelligence; they are clearly as capable as Bashir but without those pesky morals getting in the way.
Never understood. 3 level chess how's it played??
While it was wrong to exclude Augments from society, it was obvious heightened requirement and guidelines would've been needed. For example with education, remove C's and B's as passing grades for Augments.
wharf himself is an exception as the first/only klingon to be in starfleet
fun fact, the actor playing Julian HATED this twist. He refused to learn the lines for the episode. He had cue cards on his lap, on the table, on the walls in various scenes out of protest.
lol why did he hate this twist?
imagine anything from those new supposably "Star Trek" shows attempting this kind of subject. Would either fall flat completely missing the mark or beat you over the head with the subtlety of an airborne.
I can't tell are Worf and Bashir commanders in this scene? I think I see three buttons.
dibaterman By this time Worf is an Lieutenant Commander while Bashir is only a full Lieutenant (and, apparently due to his genetic background, he shouldn't look forward to anymore promotions in the future if the time-traveling episodes in the series are any indication).
Ranillon
Thanks
And here we are..... later, in 2019..... some dude in another country decides to perform a procedure, involving a genetic alteration, to a human life. Folks, we are (once again) witnessing Star Trek material unfolding in the real world.
"That's precisely what prompted the ban on DNA re-sequencing in the first place."
Well, yes, that and the genocide Odo. Minor detail.
God I miss good writing like this
It’s OK kiddo. There’s a snowball for us in the Sahara ❄️🍧
I like to think that, when other races aren't around, Klingons are just as happy to sit and mull over thorny ethical problems over a blood wine as Worf is doing, here (over his prune juice).
Sometimes a battle fought using the mind is just as worth it.
Scenes like this is why I get annoyed when bitter fans say new Star Trek is bad because there's too much politics when DS9 was commentating on subjects like this 20 years ago
yup. like sir did you even watch the original shows? lmao
@@fjakjcwjcjjwjcch we don't mind you being political and Star Trek but when it tips are more liberal direction that's when we get angry about it
Speakink of exceptions... what is that silver shoulder scarf thing Worf wears and why is he the only one that gets to wear one.
There was never an on-screen explanation for it. It may merely signify his house affiliation (House of Mogh) among Klingons.
Warrior sash
@@Raja1938 bajorans wear their earrings in uniform too
@@robertjackson3552 But Riker told Ro Laren to remove her earring
After Bashir parents. What happened 2 them?
@Nathan Bernacki Right now going to NZ for 2 years doesn't sound bad.
@Nathan Bernacki Probably one of the safest corona wise places on the planet.
@Nathan Bernacki I'm sure the prisons in the 24th century are a lot better than some of the ones now. However there are some prisons that look more like hotels or college dorms. Look up 'luxury prisons' on TH-cam
@@JnEricsonx And he might even have been released early since his crime is NON-violent