The Stagnation of 3D Sonic Gameplay
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 มิ.ย. 2024
- Alternate title - "Lost in Translation: Sonic the Hedgehog in 3D"
We often think of Sonic Adventure as the closest thing to a 3D "Classic Sonic" game, but is that really the case? And how much have future games followed or deviated from this foundation?
BUPPY, developer of Sonic Breeze (whose footage I showcased in the video): / buppp09
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00:00 Introduction
01:55 Sonic Fan Disclaimer
02:19 Setting the Standard (Sonic Adventure)
12:07 Following the Formula
15:49 The Good Stuff
17:47 Finding the Flow (or light in the darkness...)
23:37 Why Break Sonic's Flow?
25:31 Aesthetics and Presentation
30:59 Defining "A Sonic Game"
40:59 Conclusion - เกม
Someone on Twitter said "Sonic is the 'Potential Man' of gaming" and I think that's the best way to sum up this franchise.
I think that has to be the last thing to describe the series.
Because I don't think people realize the implications
They call him 007, 0 consistency 0 decent gimmicks 7 cases of over-priced shitty games
No way! I said that!
@@KallenGate what is this comment from? 2015?
@@Eminster I don't know, it's still correct. Let me name some.
1. Sonic 06 (Why is this game 5 dollars when I could just download P06 for free and get an infinitely better experience??)
2. Sonic Unleashed (Why is this game 15 dollars when I could just download Unleashed Project for free and get an infinitely better experience??)
3. Sonic 4 (Why are these games 20 dollars combined when I could just buy Sonic Mania and get an infinitely better experience??)
4. Sonic Lost World (Why is this game 30 dollars on Steam when I could just play Super Mario Galaxy and get an infinitely better experience??)
5. Sonic Boom Rise of Lyric (If only SEGA never made that deal with Nintendo...)
6. Sonic Forces (Why is this game 40 dollars on Steam when I could just buy Sonic Generations and get an infinitely better experience??)
7. Team Sonic Racing (Why is this game 40 dollars on Steam when I could just buy Racing Transformed and get an infinitely better experience??)
8. Sonic Colors Ultimate (Why is this game 40 dollars when I could just play base Sonic Colors and get an infinitely better experience??)
9. Sonic Origins (Why is this game 60 dollars when I could just download the decomps + 3 A.I.R for free and get an infinitely better experience??)
10. Sonic Frontiers (Why is this game 60 dollars when I could just download Sonic Utopia and get an infinitely better experience??)
11. Sonic Superstars (Why is this game 60 dollars when I could just buy Sonic Mania and get an infinitely better experience??)
12. Sonic x Shadow Generations (Why is this game probably going to be 60 dollars when I could just buy base Sonic Generations and get practically the same experience??)
20:20
“Sonic’s long forgotten ability to curl into a ball” hit me like a ton of bricks
Lol why
SEGA brought it back for frontiers though
@@andersonsansonowski5644
But without the functionality that made it fun and useful.
@@snakey888Spindash in Frontiers is insanely useful
@@BIackingOut
Thing is, it functions more like boost than proper spindash and roll
I don’t think Sonic’s gameplay being different to his classic counterpart is inherently a bad thing, but I do agree that if changes are made then they should be just as good if not better than the original gameplay style. Can’t really call it an evolution if it’s worse than the original
They should take lessons from sonic team Jr. I think srb2 is peak 3d sonic, and it's not in its final form yet apparently
Sonic Adventure is in large part a product of creative compromises. Almost every game which followed Adventure seems to have forgotten this fact, instead simply treating it as the status quo to constantly reference, creating this cycle of stagnation.
I'd still argue Sonic Adventure 2 is just as good, if not better. That being said, during development that game was thought to be the final Sonic game since Sega knew their time making consoles was running out and there was no guarantee Sonic could continue as a outside of being a console mascot for Sega, and so SA2 was created under a very "one last hurrah" mindset. In my view it's not until after SA2, when Sonic Team become so comfortable and complacent with the knowledge that Sonic COULD continue, that the pressure to nail how Sonic SHOULD continue evaporated and the series slowly lost more and more focus.
@@HOTD108_
Nah, sa2 was not just a whole lot worse, it just wasnt a good game, much less a good Sonic game.
@@HOTD108_ Not commenting on SA2's quality in saying this, but SA2 is still undoubtedly a product of this lineage. It looked at SA1 and DOUBLED DOWN on the divergences SA1 made from its predecessors, divergences which in SA1 were largely made as a product of compromises. SA2 ran with them as creative endeavors, for better or for worse. This would continue to this day
@@HOTD108_ To provide my thoughts on SA2, it really speaks volumes to me what Sonic Team's problem is when looking at how that game progressed from SA1 because in some ways? It did improve on things. Paring down the characters and gameplay styles was good, it cut out the fat and gave them more focus. Them making the lightspeed dash instant was good, the bounce attack was a cool idea and a good way of giving Sonic basically the bubble shield power just all the time.
As for everything else? It really didn't do much. Sonic still has all the problems of SA1. His jumps still slow him down as does the homing attack. Attacking enemies still slows him down but now the levels are incredibly linear to accommodate it which means effectively that they've basically taken away even the good aspects of SA1's level design. The lightspeed dash and bounce attack were mapped to the same button as the somersault and spin dash which means there are instances where any moment you might want to use one of those moves, specifically the lightspeed dash, you'd actually risk failing and doing a move you never intended which could lead you to your death. They gimped the radar in the emerald hunting stages and force you to follow a specific order. In terms of the story and action within it certainly feels like a last hurrah but that hardly matters when the most important part, the gameplay, feels like it has barely been improved upon. At the risk of sounding like just another disgruntled classic fan? I'd like to point to by comparison how the shift from Sonic 1 to 2 went.
Sonic's control received improvements. The speed cap of the original game has been removed, meaning you can reach some truly crazy speeds at any point you want. The spin dash was brought in as a means to quickly gain speed and also it serves as a great new attack you can use to barrel through enemies. The level design from Sonic 1 while good for the most part is a little bit inconsistent with a great entry level with Green Hill, an extremely slow slog in Marble, a good balance of platforming and speed in Spring Yard and then of course Labyrinth being... Labyrinth before we get Star Light and the fittingly dangerous Scrap Brain. Sonic 2 flipped that by retooling the levels to have a good balance of speed, platforming and exploration. You could blaze through the level if you wanted and it'd be exhilirating but nothing's stopping you from going slower to seek out either checkpoints or other goodies. It took the core fundamentals of the previous and built upon them while adding new features and content. SA2... changed one thing, added stuff but otherwise left things alone and gimped other features.
@@snakey888Are you going to expound on that instead of just saying "game bad"?
I was so worried this was going to be ANOTHER "3D Sonic is so stale and repetitive they do the same thing every time" while slamming all the times the series TRIES something different
IE: "this game sucks because it's different"; while at the same time criticizing the series for never changing.
When I saw you pull out clips of Lost World, Black Knight, Shadow, etc... I was so ready to click away. I'm glad I stuck around to actually see a rare, genuine, and level-headed, criticism of 3D Sonic, ALL 3D Sonic--not just the "bad" 3D Sonics. The slow bosses, homing attack absolutely demolishing your speed, automating as much as possible, and mechanics that are entirely antithetical to everything Sonic was--all things that very much apply to even the "good" 3D Sonic games.
As an added bonus you're the only other person that realizes Lost World did the spindash just like frontiers, several years BEFORE frontiers; AND THAT SHADOW'S HOMING ATTACK IS BAD ON PURPOSE TO INCENTIVISE WEAPONS. I cannot overstate how much I appreciate someone that at least TRIES to judge the games equally instead of the typical "forces bad, so all mechanics from forces are also bad." Thank you for the video.
Frontiers spindash is lost worlds spindash, it's the same codebase.
@@kieronix4071 I feel like people would be surprised how much is REALLY shared between games, especially when they go out of their way to create an entire engine... but they only seem to freak out when they see grass, brown squares, and hear heroes sound effects. 🤣
The joke here being that the Lost World spindash was still bad and stiff. We basically never had a true successor since Adventure.
@@QuintaFeira12 if you truly think "press b over and over again with only one character, or two characters in Adventure 2" is a good application of the spindash, more power to ya. Adventure is literally never going anywhere. I have it on several platforms.
Personally I prefer StH's take on it that made the spindash exclusively for short burst jumps and horizontal midair movement; not allowing it to be a crutch for people that can't build up speed without it. And overall, duct taping a bad spindash into a game where you can literally just press a boost button is kinda a niche use-case anyway fueled primarily by familiarity and nostalgia; which is not a bad thing btw. familiarity and nostalgia are literally the selling points of generations, which a lot of people love for some reason.
Unfortunately most Sonic critic videos these days are more Based than ever before. We all need to see things with shades of gray than black and white. I have my disagreements in this video that seemingly propagates the Classic games as peak design, but even he at least recognizes how shit the Special Stages are. Giving Frontiers major points off for the overrated garbage it is will always be good too
I've never understood the reactivity towards pinning Sonic down to something that is clearly defined as if *that's* the thing limiting him as opposed to just being a hasty appropriation of whatever the industry is doing at that point in time, with consistency only being found in some ancient, compensatory design habits.
Adventure is imperfect, but Since jumping to 3D it's the only time Sonic has, albeit messily, iterated on its pre-established fundamentals instead of either imitating, diluting or just straight up forgetting them.
Being critical of all this doesn't have to mean everything after 1994 needs to go, it just means that there's alot about Sonic that seemingly continues to go underconsidered in favor of reacting to whatever market is currently in front of it, and it'll stay that way until the folks in charge undergo some true reflection on what it is Sonic actually brings to the table in the modern day.
They think Sonic can be as flexible as any other franchise, genuinely believing that good creativity is an endless wellspring. They think that's what will validate their badass cartoon animal hero franchise. They're too blinded by that desire to get how a need for speed can itself be a restriction or how playing to that need can dig up some unique clever ideas despite that.
Thanks for the shoutout! Excellent watch. Great points all around. Probably your best video yet.
I would make an argument that Sonic games are not just their physics. While that important aspect of the series has been lost, others haven't. Almost every Sonic game retains the emphasis on speedrunning and the multi-route, tiered level design that encourages replay value and rewards better players with faster clear times. And I think that's almost as important to Sonic games as the physics. So at least some of the identity is still there.
But that's my issue with most Sonic stuff these days. Looking for the glimpses of Sonic I can find in "Sonic". And most of the time these days, I find that in fan works or Sonic-inspired things. Which I'll take, Sonic Breeze looks awesome. But it would be nice if one day we could see Sonic again, officially.
I would also say that there is definitely some real value to the games themselves in having a greater focus on story. It adds context to what you're doing that makes the whole experience more engaging and memorable. In Green Forest in SA2, you're trying to get off Prison Island before it explodes. In Mirage Saloon in Mania, you're... playing a level in a video game.
Oh yeah totally. I have no issue with the narrative stuff if it's actually worthwhile. My point was more about the pace of the cutscenes dragging down the game. Integrating cutscenes and gameplay together like your example in SA2 is much better (although I still wish the actual story itself was better, too).
I think a big problem is that as the focus on narrative became more prominent, it became more and more disconnected from the gameplay to the point where the two barely interconnected. This leads to the classic case of ludonarrative dissonance.
It's to the point where Frontiers starts hapzardly explaining all of the gameplay quirks in a completely clunky way entirely through exposition.
@@sonic5993It even explained the pop-in of the techno-looking floating stuff in the overworld. Which I already guessed was going to be an actual story thing because I actually acquaint myself with non-Sonic stuff as well, AND I'm "old", so all that Cyber Space stuff combined with Sega's Sonic's infatuation with meta just SCREAMED "Superman 64" to me.
Though, ironically, Forces of all games was CONSTANTLY telling its story during and through gameplay on top of all the cutscenes, but it's too trash of a story told too obnoxiously to work. They still need to (re)find the ideal medium.
I'd say it's the level design that's more important, though the physics are still a vital vehicle to that. Those AND having multiple speedster characters-the literal vehicles tackling the levels via those physics-are what make navigation, exploration and spredrunning in Sonic so rich.
As for story, it's important for establishing Sonic's world and what the series is fully about in terms of both entertainment and morality. Caelum complained Adventure 1's take on the games' world was "fantastical but not very surreal", but too surreal means too abstract and meaningless. I think the Advance games as a whole hit the sweet spot for how Sonic's world should be, being decently overseen by Yuji Naka unlike with the set-top Sonics of that time that saw him and Takashi Iizuka jockeying for dominance.
The homing attack really could have been improved. Fans have shown that it's better for enemies to basically be trampolines. With the homing attack keeping your momentum. Heck, even the balloons in generations is more fun than the enemies
Exactly! That's what I'm saying about why would you even bother engaging with all the enemies/springs/items when all they do is break your flow? Sure, there's skill in strategically avoiding specific obstacles, but like, wouldn't it be so much more fun if these things were *tools* like they were in 2D?
I really hope people pay attention to one of my points there - how are these games actually *better* by *not* including these features? How would 3D Sonic be *worse* by implementing momentum physics, y'know?
There's a mod for SA2 that just gives you extra air control after a homing attack. It's not anything fancy/depthful like preserving momentum, just higher acceleration so that you can move properly and it's such a MASSIVE improvement to the basic game feel.
Meanwhile Sonic Frontiers does something to the homing attack no other Sonic game ever did... It pushes you backwards. Which is just salt to the injury that is the massive hitstop when the enemy is destroyed
Do you have the name of that mod? Sounds fun
@@sonicheroes Speed Character Momentum Tweaks on GameBanana
I've always wanted a lock-on button for the homing attack to give more control to players (especially for new players that dont know how much height is needed to land it), but yes bouncing off of enemies while keeping momentum is important too
I think the point of the 2D Sonic games' free-flowing nature is fairly overstated here - as every 2D game usually has half or more of their levels dedicated to a lot of stop-and-go, or boxed-in level design that doesn't really facilitate building and preserving a smooth flow. So I don't think it's really fair to put some 3D games on blast for doing the same thing of dedicating sections to different aspects of the gameplay (to a point).
When it comes to the Adventure games, I don't think their divergences from the 2D design were ill-concieved or something born out of negligence, let alone bad for the games. The 2D Sonic games were fantastic for their creative uses of pinball physics and building/preserving momentum. They're also significantly easier to control at high speeds, naturally. So in a fast-paced 3D game, the player needs mechanics that allow them to orient themselves around their environment. 'Halting' your forward movement, and giving you hang-time turns hitting objects like enemies into a tool the player can use to 'anchor' themselves to more treacherous surroundings before proceeding. Likewise, the dash-panels before 90 degree slopes and springs thrust you high into the air, giving you a wide overview of the immediate incoming area. Even the light-speed dash can be used to both correct your movement trajectory, but also build and maintain speed.
SA1/2 are rooted in letting the player bask in the sheer amount of control they have in their movement, which not only addresses the inherent challenges that come with 3D, but uses them to its advantage. I think this gameplay change - prioritizing predictable and simple avenues of controlling your character - creates better gameplay in a 3D context (particularly at the time), than adapting ALL of the 2D mechanics faithfully would have.
As for the loops, while I would love to see a crack at making truly interactive loops work in 3D, I can't fault them for going with what they did - in automating them and taking control of the camera to let you see the action. I have a very hard time imagining them to fundamentally feel good, to prevent them from being extremely disorienting and nauseating. And I suspect the entire purpose of loops conveying and rewarding the games' physics systems, and giving off a spectacle, would be completely buried by locking the camera close behind the player by necessity for smooth control.
The streamlined/linear levels are largely a product of 3D spaces being harder and more time consuming to build. But it must be said that this is another restriction they used to their advantage, resulting in the birth of the series' now-staple ranking system. The scoring system had always been almost completely superfluous to the gameplay of the 2D games - and in my opinion actually detracted in how harsh they were. However SA2 had finally iterated and refined the entire scoring system to be much more fair, directly feed into the gameplay, give you an actual rank at the end, and instill a rewarding feeling for mastery, turning its streamlined levels focusing on action and speed above all else, into its own strength.
The focus on more grounded environments is likely a result of their experimentation with the classic art style in 3D, as with beta Windy Valley. In 2D, geometric shapes and bright, highly saturated colors can comprise a significantly more appealing aesthetic than it can in 3D, which by its nature is much closer to real life. As such, the stark shapes and saturated colors end up looking much more garish the closer to real life you get. Going from Beta to Final Windy Valley, you can see how the more nuanced, contrasting colors with use of recognizably grounded texture detail can better aid depth perception in a detailed 3D space.
All this goes to say, the Adventure games' design is faithful in a lot of ways, but for many parts which don't adapt the 2D mechanics accurately, there's likely a reason for it born out of a ton of logistical factors that can't be so easily brute-forced for the sake of being faithful. What works best for a game in 2D doesn't always work the same for 3D. That said, I'd still love to see a future Adventure-style game that can adapt many more of the 2D games' nuances, cuz there definitely is a lot of potential there.
Dedicating sections to different aspects besides speed is completely fine. I don't think anyone has much of a problem with that as long as said sections are fun. The problem 3D Sonic had is that many of its base mechanics were things that ruined the free-flowing nature.
As for SA1/2, I think it's important to judge them on the games they are rather than the limitations that forced them to be that way. Personally, while I did enjoy SA2 when I was younger, going back to it now after experiencing many more games, I find myself seriously struggling to enjoy it at at all.
Firstly, as for the linear level designs, I don't think it's fair to use the ranking system as an excuse for the super linear levels. The ranking system has nothing to do with any of that.
Really, I'd say the linear levels caused a lot more harm than you'd think. Due to the levels being linear, we run into the issue that sonic is an extremely fast character in an extremely compact environment. This means that he's going to need a lot of ways to stay on track in order to not constantly fly off in some direction or hit walls. So... We got ways to stay on track. We got automated springs, we got automated loops, we got automated curves, we got automated dash, we got automated roll, we got- Well... You get the point. I think bigger more open levels could allow sonic to have much more free-flowing and natural movement, without anywhere near as much automation.
Also, as a little note I'm including because it annoyed me so much when going back to the game: I hate how often SA2 puts enemies infront of things you have to roll under, or right next to rails you need to get on. It often leads to you being almost forced to completely destroy your speed by taking out the enemy first, as otherwise your homing attack will, without fail, go BACKWARDS just to destroy the enemy, when what you really want to do is just roll under the thing, or dash onto the rail. It's such insanely bad level design, and it's hard to imagine why such enemy placement was allowed.
@@crimsongoldeagle8868If you don't mind me jumping in, I thought I'd also throw in a little quibble about the ranking system. It doesn't really encourage the person to get better or rewards them for higher mastery. It's Sonic Team tapping into a problem they keep running into which is artificially increasing game time by locking content behind these higher ranks meaning if you're not good enough at the game, you're not gonna see all the content it has to offer. Now sure the reward from SA2 is just Green Hill Zone and mostly content for the multiplayer in Battle but it means there isn't really this vibe that the game's encouraging you the find your own way and take things at your own pace, unlike the classics and SA1 which thanks to the lack of ranking systems do encourage experimentation and exploration. Hell I think one of the best implementations of this is in Sonic Mania where you have a "Cool" ranking in the score tally that basically just determines how often you got hit while trying to complete the level. It's a small thing but because it doesn't contribute to unlocking anything, perfecting the levels comes down to the player enjoying the game enough and the prospect to keep working at it.
@@crimsongoldeagle8868 telekinesticman did say that when making the stagnation 3D sonic vid, he approached the topic of the lost translation in the perspective of, imagine if one of the fans from the 90s were to be approached with any of the 3D sonic games, he knows about what makes Sonic, "Sonic", the game, the series, the franchise, and also what feels like Sonic, and has mastered the levels, the mechanics, how would he feel about what the 3D games have become that might become acceptable
@@the-aspiring-creator4249 Sonic was never about exploration
@@Darkghostwind He was. Speed was the main purpose of his character but the classics were not designed solely around high speeds. The level design was also made to encourage exploration and for platforming. That's what made playing Sonic Adventure 1's stages in part so good because yes you can go fast and it's exhilarating finding the fastest ways to the goal but you could also look around the areas and find monitors with extra lives and rings, a shield you may not have realized was there as well as just new segments of the level you might not have been aware of. To say it never was about exploration to me is to look Sonic CD, Sonic 2, Sonic 3 and even Sonic Adventure dead in the eyes and say "You know what? You don't count.".
Another bangerang video as always Caelum!
I've been wishing for a proper 3D Sonic game inspired by the classics for some time. I hope some day we get it.
You guys rock, Balena.
Your video essays continue to be thought provoking and worth listening to. Game design is always a complex, yet engaging topic. I wish more fans remembered to keep an open mind and were better at listening to genuinely nuanced criticism, no matter the difference in opinion. I think you bring up a lot of interesting points and valid comparisons to the classics. There’s definitely certain areas where I disagree because I tend to prefer most 3D games over 2D, but the overall message of your video is one I completely agree with.
thank you i prefer 3d or 2d i also support shadow 2005 game
You are absolutely right, if “Sonic can be anything and still be Sonic”, then make a game that feels like the classics in 3D, for once. I mean that’s not too unreasonable right? They’ve done literally everything else
Fr, just one time is all we're asking. Just to see how people feel about it
Explain how you can transfer the feel of sonic in 2d to 3d
@@ShowtimeLaw Sonic Project Hero, Sonic Robo Blast 2, Sonic Breeze, Sonic GT and Sonic Utopia, Rolling Rascal, Spark the Jester
@@oswald-kp1bm all unofficial games, that don't even translate the feeling of 2d to 3d other than momentum. That's all those do
@@ShowtimeLaw “Unofficial”
Thanks, captain obvious. The concept of a 3D translation of the classics is “unofficial” because Sega hasn’t even made it yet. Why do you think we want it so badly in the first place?
“Other than momentum”
The most defining feature of the classics besides speed, which those games also have.
While I still enjoy a lot of the modern games (including Frontiers) personally, I can't deny the cogency and consistency of your points here. You did a very good job highlighting the design issues following the series.
Games can be fun and not sonic at the same time
erm okay?
I don't know if I agree with your point that the aethstetics of 3D Sonic are poor or the wrong direction. I thought the look of Adventures 1 and 2 really extended the more grounded look of Sonic 3 and brought it into a 3D space, especially with that of the Echindna tribal motif. And I also believe that the story of Adventure 2, especially in it's original Japanese incarnation really helps to heighten the tension at the end of the game and elevate the gameplay. That Last Story is the only time it really feels like there's a ticking time bomb and you have to race to complete the game and solve the mystery of Shadow.
❤
@Outta-hz1ej Adventure was just a transition period from Classic to "modern" largely as a side effect of the game starting as a Classic one (if only visually). The hubs were transparently trying to be "realistic" with the NPCs looking like ones from games like the PS1 Final Fantasies. At the same time the Zones themselves were overall more in line with the looks of the Genesis Era games.
Adventure 2 was the game that really committed to the shift that begun. The Zones were more strongly distanced from the Genesis ones, the NPCs were even more trying to be le realistic, the new recurring characters were a shonen battle manga rival ala Vegeta/Hiei/Kaiba/Vergil/etc. and a bat pretty obviously designed to be Sonic's Jessica Rabbit or Minerva Mink.. The plot focused more on government conspiracies ala Metal Gear with a new villain who was actively trying to kill everyone.
some guy said "erm okay?"
beruanga said that
Parkour was the best thing that ever happened to sonic
And for them to just throw it away like that made me not play an official sonic game in years
People didn't like it because it wasn't boost.
@@lpfan4491No, people didn't like it because parkour was useful a total of 5 times if you didn't speedrun. There was too much 2D and gimmicks for parkour to shine.
@@Gnidel Which is why I always hear "They should not have made this game! Making a non-boost game after Colors and Gens was horrendous".
People literally yell into the microphone that they didn't like the ideas, not that they were underutilized.
@@Gnidel Then you refine it next game. Realize "Okay none of these gimmicks are really useful and just muddy the gameplay, let's refine the stuff that works." and go from there.
@@lpfan4491And yet those are probably the same people that say the modern games are "boost to win" which isn't true at all
I personally think it's even more wild that Sega/Sonic Team has forgotten that Sonic is a hedgehog in everything but name.
The fact that the very reason he was designed to look the way he does and it has zero impact on the modern games (until they finally brought back spindash in Frontiers)
Exactly. The whole point of his design is that he can roll into a ball. Now he's just like, a guy who stands around.
@@telekinesticman basically the flash
@@telekinesticman They leaned heavily on just making him into a superhero as opposed to a Hedgehog
The funny thing is they actually noticed these issues in Frontiers; most of the optimal paths in cyberspace require you to AVOID springs and enemies. Even the official Sonic Speed Strats video discourages players from using the homing attack on enemies.
You make a lot of good points, but you (and pretty much every other creator that speaks on this topic) ignored a key issue. How can a "classic" 3D game possibly have compelling level design? It's easy to look at Sonic's control and point out the things that he lost while ignoring how they would actually work in 3D. Adventure is actually a good example of this. Is trivially easy to skip large chunks of level design with Spin-dash jumps alone. Implementing even more unchained movement would either add in the technical hurdle of making the levels much larger to compensate, or exacerbate the problem of players skipping most of the level design.
Pretty much every game that's tried to adapt Sonics 2D gameplay has similar issues. I love Spark 3, but the fastest way to beat those levels is to fly over them. It drains any unique identity from a good chunk of the stages because they can all be beaten in a similar way. The solution most have settled on seems to be to add a ton of awkward collectibles to incentivize you to take slower routes through the same linear levels. I'd argue this is even worse than the Adventure games. In those games extra lives are there as a bonus, not to coax you into interacting with the level design. It might sound harsh but I've never played a game in this style with genuinely challenging and compelling level design. All of the fun comes from the novelty of the movement, If that ever wears off I lose any reason to revisit them. That's fine for these games, with a few exceptions most of them are free or cheap (I'm looking at you, Penny). But a 5-10 hour experience isn't going to fly as your big console exclusive.
I don't think Sonic Team fumbled the execution, they made a deliberate and necessary compromise. They obviously didn't want their games to be sub 10 hour experiences (hence the multiple playstyles, sub games, and chao garden). And it's not like later games didn't improve on this formula. SA2 in Particular has some of the best levels in the series with ample reason to actually interact with them due to the rankings and chao garden. Of course they have their problems, but I've gotten way more mileage out of most of these titles, even if the core gameplay is less faithful.
The later games aren't tripping over themselves to reintroduce the classic elements because they don't work in 3D, at least not as well. If they had tried we wouldn't have gotten something along the lines of the indie darlings we love, we would've gotten Megaman X7.
Go play pennys big breakaway
@@teryliuhoo5989 I have. It has similar issues. The dilemmas are mostly just there get you to engage with the level design. If you ignore them you can just blast past most of it.
I'm not saying it isn't fun, I actually rather like it. But this kind of design wouldn't work for a full priced release, as it stands I think Penny itself is overpriced.
The example of sa1 and its spin dash allowing you to skip large chunks of levels is not because the game mimics the classic design, but rather because it doesn't. The classic games don't have moves as broken as sa1's spindash, which is more similar to boost than it is the classic spin dash.
If a game needs to add polarising, out of place gameplay styles that nobody asked for and few even appreciate, like sa2 does, and the core gameplay is still shallow and relatively uninteresting, then something needs to be rethought.
@@snakey888 It's not necessarily that the spindash is broken, it's that it doesn't work as well in 3D.
Changing the spindash doesn't change the fact that there are more vectors to circumvent 3D level design. You can't go around obstacles in the same way in 2D, even if you take a higher path you're still covering the same amount of ground, just on a different path with different level design.
In something like Adventure 1's Speed Highway or Spark 3's Protest city you can skip most of the level by simply jumping from building to building. And Spark 3 doesn't have Adventures Spindash.
Like I said it's a fundamental issue with high speed and momentum in a 3D space, you'd either have to make the levels much bigger and thus less readable to compensate, or you end up with samey levels that are easy to skip.
@@hijster479
In the case of spin dash in sa1, it is definitely a case of it being broken. If it functioned closer to the classic games, most of those skips would be impossible to do.
Longtime Sonic forum crawler, here. I've studied these games for years, and I don't disagree with a lot of your points (I am extremely critical of most of the 3D Sonics) but I definitely think you're giving the Sonic Adventure games (especially SA1) a bad rap. I feel like Sonic fans in general get kind of caught up on trying to "translate classic Sonic into 3D" and calling foul when it parted ways with it, without realizing maybe some of the decisions were deliberate, or even beneficial, to good play.
For starters, the speed lost from hitting springs or attacking enemies with a Homing Attack. Losing most if not all of your forward speed may seem like an antithesis to what people think classic Sonic is about, but I think it's largely for control reasons, not only for the player but for the game designer. Giving Sonic that much speed in an instant was no issue in a 2D game where the only directions to go were up, down, left or right; and walls and ceilings could easily slot Sonic into place, wherever the level designers needed Sonic to go. But in 3D, you can go around or through nearly anything. If you let Sonic retain all of that speed and height, Sonic has much more likeliness to become unruly to control and/or miss his landings, as well as much more capable for the level design to become fully trivialized. And that latter point doesn't sound like a bad thing, at first. But I think the ability to bend a game to your will should depend on how much you've learned. If it's as easy to twist as "press A in the air at a target" or "touch this spring" that's not depth, that's just a busted system. Games need rules, and you should need skill to be able to break them. If you wanted to make a good point for keeping the inertia-bounce, I'd say make it a part of a normal jump. Jumping on enemies in 3D is hard and that's why the Homing Attack exists in the first place. If we went the path of nuanced design, you could choose to jump on an enemy, sacrificing accuracy for speed/height, while the Homing Attack sacrifices speed/height for accuracy. Make the player choose on a moment-to-moment basis what they want.
Another point I see is talking about linear design or Sonic's tendency to keep to streamlined paths. While I do think 3D Sonic could afford to open up and try more shortcuts/alternate routes, I think this too was deliberate and smart. Note SA1 & 2 were designed for the Dreamcast, a system without a right analog stick. There was no good way to manage or turn cameras, so it's not like they could accomodate for that in these games. But even if they did, 3D platformers (especially ones from the 5th and early 6th gen) do not account for camera movement very much. This may not be seen as a huge problem until it's realized that you're going to need to move the camera A LOT more in Sonic than other games when moving in all directions. Sonic is a character that can not only move on ground and basic slopes, but also on walls, on ceilings, on curvatures of all kinds at 360 degrees. Camera control to follow that would need to be extremely complex (something I wouldn't ask from developers of early 3D games in 1998-2001), and even when figured out would require a lot of a player's own fine tuning. Proof of this is in 3D Sonic fan games; most of them require you to maneuver the position of the camera more than even basic functions like jumping or spinning. And us Sonic fans may be able to accustom to that with our experience, but normies and less hardcore fans aren't going to have our seasoned palette and will find that widely tedious. And I know, Sonic in the 2D games is known for traveling on walls and ceilings, but again, it was in 2D, where the boundaries of what that meant were very easy to define and the camera simply only had to follow panning motions in 8 directions. The possibilities of where Sonic can go and how he interacts with the environment complicate the camera system in both how it must operate on it's own and how you must interact with it by a hundred-fold, and I think that's why a lot of Sonic gameplay in 3D sticks to more linear stage design. Justifiably so too; I think most players just want to run and jump (and spin).
I think a valid point could be made that the developers of 3D Sonic from Heroes-onward definitely lost the plot and clung onto the least becoming parts of the SA gameplay, sure. I definitely think the boost games, as much as I like them, have in common with the Adventures the things you made a point to discuss/criticize; and I definitely think games like 06, Lost World and Frontiers are proof that Sonic Team have a tendency to completely lose the plot on what it means to control Sonic. I even think the Homing Attack as of present day is way too overused and poorly implemented, as is most mechanics in these games nowadays. But I do not think the Sonic Adventure games are to blame for this. I believe they did the best they could, and a lot of the rules they apply are still reasonable to apply to 3D Sonic in the present day. It's not really fair to throw what they did under the bus as game design incompetence for "not doing Sonic in 3D correctly". You were quick to mention Mario 64 changed a lot about Mario in 3D but to the benefit of maneuvering a 3D space easier. I think much of the same applies to SA1 & 2.
(They could definitely do away with the dash panels, though.)
Thing is, that's why you design the games to accommodate these things. I think about certain fan projects where while the levels are maybe just a tad too massive? There's so much to explore and it's built so well around a core that tries to balance speed, momentum, platforming and exploration that you can see how a game like it can work and as this video points out, SA1 was not awful. 12:07 even has a great point where all these changes could effectively be ignored had the series improved upon the foundation and replaced elements with stuff that you just can't do in 2D. Basically, SA1 wasn't perfect but it has a good base that if built upon and improved could lead to some fantastic games that are more faithful to spirit of the series while doing its own thing. It's why he highlights the Mario example. Nintendo took full advantage of the 3D space with Mario's moveset and notably with every new 3D game fine-tuned the controls, retained these abilities and even worked in ways to reimplement features of the old games. It's not a "Sonic Adventure is the core problem." situation so much as its "The core problems have been present SINCE SA1.".
Think about this, SA1 set a good foundation for new games, SA2 built upon it and with actual improvements like an instant lightspeed dash and less characters meaning there's more consistency one can achieve. But then they made the lightspeed dash the same button as the spin dash, somersault and bounce attack meaning there are points this ability can and WILL crap out at the worst times and all because they wanted the games to still be simple without realizing why the controls for the Genesis games were effective. The levels were made corridors for Sonic and Shadow, they utterly gimped the radar for Knuckles and Rouge and the actual mechanics were not tweaked. The sequel didn't bother tweaking the core mechanics to be better and what it did tweak it either gimped because of its choices in design or it's a positive that it broke because it incorporated and this progressed until finally Sonic Frontiers years and years later at least gave you the means to tweak Sonic's jump momentum. This has meant every game in the 3D era has consistently had the same control faults as SA1 when they should be moving forward. Compare that to the classic games. Sonic 2 removed the speedcap, added the spin dash, reworked special stages into something that, while overused to hell later, are at least in line with Sonic's core tenets and accessing them was more fun and encouraged exploration of the levels and the levels themselves were made to be a better balance of speed, platforming and exploration. This further progressed with Sonic 3 with new playable characters that have mechanics that fit with the overall core, Sonic has extra abilities to match, many of which can be great ways of maintaining flow and the levels are expansive with the means to get the special stages now being the best they possibly can be with the bonus games providing the fun that comes from scouring the world for checkpoints and Mania built upon this even further while even tweaking stuff that didn't necessarily gel with others in Sonic 3 with levels that are faster paced like the old days, a fun new ability in the Drop Dash and more. Basically these games understood that while new gimmicks are nice, the core gameplay should not be forgotten because even if it works, there are mechanics that could do with tweaking. The 3D games don't seem to be about that unfortunately and there's also the worry that SEGA and Sonic Team will just randomly decide to ditch everything and reinvent the wheel again or that they will just cram stuff into a successful formula while neglecting the parts that matter.
@@the-aspiring-creator4249 I don't disagree with anything said in your second paragraph, I'm on the same page completely.
But I do not think fan games have really captured what made 2D Sonic great in 3D; not yet. SA1 gets closer than any of them on the fact that it retains a simplistic, arcadey replayable nature that gives the player a decent amount of depth to how they can move but never to the point of overwhelming the player, whether that's in control, layout or scope. The maps are compact and full of stage gimmicks and obstacles that you need to interact with or avoid, respectively, and the game bothers to give the stage design an ebb and flow that can play in favor of (or to challenge) the player.
It obviously has automation as it's key flaw, and these problems are the ones that have plagued the franchise since in far worse extents, but I still stand strong that fan games have not managed to surpass the "tech demo" feeling yet while Adventure still stands as the only absolute proof of these practices put into a 3D Sonic game with concrete level and game design.
Our closest champion under it is probably Sonic Robo Blast 2, and even that needs to let go of things like the thok, and further lessen the DOOM-like acceleration or reliance on constant camera control.
@@AzoosYT Of course, not every fangame succeeds 100% but I think they do a good job of highlighting a gameplay style that with proper development, levels to properly accommodate them and of course the budget and resources that full backing can provide that you at the very least are closer to nailing something that feels like Sonic lovingly brought into 3D.
It's the same with SA1 for me. It's really disappointing that SEGA and Sonic Team moved away from that and kept the core but didn't bother fixing what should've been fixed and its additions caused more problems than they solved and really that's the core of the video I'd say. It's that 3D Sonic's core problems have been a thing since his first outing, the game we forgive it in because it was the first attempt and seemingly because of skewed priorities there hasn't been any attempt to rectify that.
As someone who loves most of the 3D Sonic games, I 100% entirely agree with you here. Adventure is the closest to Classic Sonic in 3D, but it is still so far from what Classic Sonic in 3D could be, and they only got further away from that idea since then.
Unfortunately, I think Sonic Team is genuinely just stuck in their ways at this point. We have had so many “generations” of Sonic Team members over the last two decades that have all been trained up on the very idea of 3D Sonic being all about homing chains, dash panels, boosting, etc. It’s to the point now where I wouldnt even trust or have faith in Sonic Team if they announced a game that returns to even the basics that Adventure set. Like, say one day Sonic Team just up and announced Sonic Adventure 3, I absolutely would not trust them to even get that right simply because of how long it has been and how few people that made the Adventure games are still even at Sonic Team. I couldn’t even trust them with that, let alone a 3D game that captures and evolves the series’ original identity.
They already screwed up majorly with sa2, surely sa3 couldn't be more of a screw up than sa2 was.
@@snakey888 agreed
@@Jahlil.W
Honestly, games like Shadow and Forces aren't even worse than sa2.
@@snakey888 lol good one
I don't see how Adventure is the closest to classic Sonic.
I like the semi-realistic graphics, I like the contrast between realistic-looking cities and non-sensical layouts. Like how Radical Highway has unrealistic loops and twists and holes in the road, but has realistic road textures. Also, I think the aesthetic of Shadow The Hedgehog's game is really nice.
I'm keeping this video saved, as it's the most level-headed, yet fairly critical, and overall, *genuine take from a fan who IS passionate about this series, but can't help from noticing how far we've strayed entirely.*
And here's two funny things I've noticed as well:
We admire, praise, and enjoy fangames more than official releases at times because they understand and FULLY take the classic formula and implant in into the 3rd dimension.
- Even in official releases, our natural instinct is to try and execute certain moves we've come to expect from the sonic formula, but are disappointed when they can't be achieved due to the current stagnation of the series.
Another point that I'd like to discuss is the simplistic, yet complex gameplay of the classic formula. When you mentioned about Sonic's new abilities that overshadow his core mechanics from the classics, it made me think...
- As a game designer, with a moveset like the current modern Sonic, isn't it extremely challenging to make a world that can accommodate for Sonic's drastic moveset? It's the reason why even with Frontiers current state, things like unwalkable walls, invisible barriers, and dashpads are constantly used.
However, by taking the classic formula and implementing it PROPERLY into a 3D space _(while taking the improvements that you've acknowledged from future releases, along with furthering their capability),_ *you have a simple, yet EXTREMELY effective moveset that only now requires you to shape the environment around it.* No advanced understanding of the controls are necessary, and Sonic Team could focus more on level-design. It's why the classic games (and Adventure 1 & 2) can be played with just the joystick/d-pad and one button.
Yeah, but then the enviroments will have FAR more ground and less obstacles/void they have now
Or else it's gonna be extremely difficult
Some guy said some guy said "erm okay?"
A probably insignificant compliment, but I appreciate the choice and usage of video clips in this video. I was never at a loss of what you were talking about about or why you felt that way.
Thank you, I spend a lot of time getting specific footage to illustrate my points as clearly as possible. I think a lot of people assume this stuff is easy, but trying to communicate my points visually can be quite challenging at times. There's always going to be moments where the background footage has to be a little bit generic, but I try whenever possible to add meaning through the editing. I could never let someone else edit my videos for me, because that process is so crucial to the pace, tone, and delivery of the arguments.
The commentary on the homing attack opened my eyes
It is MIND BLOWING how Sonic Colors is the only 3D Sonic game that has the badnik bounce mechanic.
Generations has it too, and to a lesser extent Unleashed.
@@snakey888 Unleashed has it but it is so useless and underclocked that you're better off homing attacking tbh
Some guy just said “some guy just said, “some guy just said, “erm ok?”
The problem is a... somewhat justified lack of faith in players. The problems inherent since Adventure have only gotten worse/more automated over time because Sonic Team is terrified of players and reviewers screwing up and blaming their error on "bad" game design. It's happened countless times. If momentum is maintained during a homing attack, confused players will fling themselves into a bottomless pit and say it's the game's fault. My jaw hit the floor when, for the first time in an official game, the Frontiers final story featured one spiral-shaped loop that had NO dash panels in it, and that the camera followed the player through. I'd never experienced that player trust in an official game to simply make it through a loop before. It's only become more apparent over the years (decades, now) how overbearing the hand-holding in Sonic is, BUT.... I do understand why they do it. Most people just don't "get" Sonic.
I will say if they get rid of bottomless pits and made platforms more wider and bigger for Sonic to explore similar to Sonic Utopia, players won't have these problems but they kept having ways for Sonic to fall down and platforms being too tight to land on for a character with so much speed
@@derple8524 I also think part of the problem comes from SEGA's focus in targeting more young children with the franchise when maybe it should consider skewing older. Not too much older mind you but just make it clear this isn't really for really little kids and is thus going to test your reflexes.
@@derple8524 can we use Sonic project Hero instead of Sonic utopía, that Game is mostly empty and slopes, at least project Hero has more into It than that
@@the-aspiring-creator4249 morso that the Sonic is a series for everyone, something that kids can enjoy to play while also having something for adults too, replay value as they get older, looking back at the stories and realizing the message or themes present in them
@@joaquindiaz3621 To be fair to Utopia, its purpose is to not really be a full-fledged fangame with proper levels. It's more a tech demo that's showing off what a 3D Sonic game that plays like the classics could do and thus you have a massive environment to fool around in so that you can give that a look.
Man, this guy needs to become a philosopher because he really turns my thoughts into words.
A very interesting position on what 3d sonic should be. I don't fully agree personally as I fully enjoy most of the 3d sonic games, even more so than a lot of the classics, but seeing sonic team attempt what you're asking for isn't something I'd be adverse to seeing.
❤
Great analysis. Love the adventure games to death, never once have given thought to how the springs were scripted nor how the homing attack disrupts momentum. Thanks for giving me a new perspective!
It’s like you took the words right out of my mouth. Sonic Frontiers lacks even the most basic Slope Physics yet many fans say it’s the Best he’s ever controlled, sometimes I want to agree with them but then I remember the dozen physics sliders and think how Frontiers doesn’t really have a set of Physics.
Homing attack would be cooler if it always behaving like the homing attack on balloons. Imagine homing attack but you're flying forward still after hitting the enemy and still have complete control over the character. Titanfall style wall running that maintains momentum and feels smooth. Large open world sandbox style worlds that can play in any direction you go. Every game play mechanic, offering different routes and options depending on what they make available.
Just finished it, great job, might be your best Sonic video in terms of topic because I don't see many that talk about this, and I myself don't have a lot to say I mostly agree with it, but especially thank you for talking about the "Sonic can be anything" point, because it's such a nothing point, I know we can't expect every game to be the same thing but there should be core elements of a series that you BUILD on top of to truly make an evolution of the gameplay, not completely abandon them and just change for the sake of "evolution" (which wouldn't even apply under the definition of evolution, lol) or chasing trends, and while it's hard, I hope we get to see Sonic consistently do it in the future outside of great fan games.
gonna procrastinate watching this for a long while but im betting it's worth the time
You hit the nail in the head at 31:20. The first thing that came to my mind after seeing Frontiers was: this is just "some game" that Sonic Team mindlessly slapped rings and "Sonic-y" props to call it a Sonic game in the box art and sell it. Nearly nothing in that game truly resembles or evokes Sonic, it's just a random game (that for the most part really just looks like a standard UE test map) with a Sonic skin. It's the fartest Sonic Team has ever gone about making anything and calling a Sonic game last minute.
To add even further to your commentary, another game was just announced, and it's literally Fall Guys with a Sonic skin ...
Yeah I saw that, I didn't even think about it that much. But now you point it out it is just that. Really shows how they love chasing popular concepts instead of understanding what Sonic is
Ironic since Fall Guys has Sonic Skins in it.
I think that your criticism of the homing attack holds a lot of truth, especially with how most games use it, but I don’t think Sonic’s high speed gameplay allows him to simply hit an enemy in 3d as consistently as Mario. Sonic Utopia’s homing attack takes your angle and velocity into account with how it behaves and in a way serves as an actual aim assist rather than a strict override and it never stops your flow like the official one. (maybe you already know that since the game is in the video).
In terms of visuals I also think you’re on the money, but sa1 is less photorealism and more photobashing, an aesthetic more akin to their other works like NiGHTS. Station Square and the Mystic Ruins are more elaborations off of Sonic CD than a sudden shift to realism. Sa2 had stylized bridge areas and Halloween styled pumpkin fields with ancient pyramids and a wonderfully elaborate space station. The idea is that in an ideal scenario, they would’ve played with the gradient of aesthetics they had in the games prior, but SA1 onward had pretty turbulent development with many people who defined Sonic leaving the company. You can see this with how in Heroes, they reeled back and played with the idea of adding more overt surrealism once again.
Sonic 1-SA2 was basically all Sonic. It reached different extremes and played with the way you could do storytelling in a medium that allows it. There are aspects that stayed after in terms of spirit like heroes or unleashed, but the whole picture was never really positive again.
Great video though, not many people are willing to be as real about the problems with 3d Sonic as you, and I say this as someone who loves Sa1 and 2 yet finds them missing things from 3 and CD.
I love that you sprinkled in bits of utopia gameplay to demonstrate some points, utopia is my ideal sonic gameplay. I think it almost perfectly captures what makes the classics fun and appealing
Solid video, my friend. The points you bring up are excellent, and I wish more people would understand that viewpoint. I won't pretend to say I know what's best for Sonic, because nowadays, I'm pretty casual towards the series, jumping into the new games with low expectations, getting my fix, and then moving on. It kinda sucks that that's how I am with the series now, because even though I did enjoy Frontiers, I don't find myself going back to that game at all, not even with the free DLC it offered. Most of the new Sonic games don't have me greatly attached to them as I used to be with classic trilogy, Adventure, Heroes, or even Shadow, and I was there since the Genesis days.
I really don't know what can be done to make this series better because with all the complaining we do, we are at the mercy of what Sonic Team just thinks is best for Sonic. I could say fan feedback is important, but I feel like even that can be a problem. Way before Generations came about, fans begged for the return of the "real" Sonic of the 90's, and for a while, SEGA was pretty stubborn in giving the fans just that, but now it's like, after Generations, SEGA happily plasters him everywhere just to remind us that, yep, this is indeed the classic Sonic we know and love, but even that's not true in the slightest because they flanderized this version of Sonic into being this cuddly, cute hero like if that was how it always was all along. And what's worse is that fans just accept that. That comic where the girl was hugging and squeezing classic Sonic and saying he was just like she remembered after making his Generations return while painting modern Sonic as this obnoxious creature who can't stop talking was the embodiment of how fans don't seem to get the real issue of Sonic's characterization.
Anyway, sorry for that little rant. I don't often get to talk about Sonic myself because it feels so embarrassing to even be in that subject now that I'm a grown man and the argument everyone gives is that Sonic is just for kids so why even overthink it?
I really feel you on losing the love with the series. I've only recently found that flame again, and I almost can't believe how much I do love Sonic, in spite of everything. Here's to hoping that Sonic Team can one day surprise you with something undeniably spectacular.
Man, has it really been almost 10 years since Sonic Spitball? I remember watching those videos when I was a teenager, getting all bright-eyed thinking about how different things could be for Sonic in several years
and yet, miraculously, those videos are just as relevant now as they were back then lol
Jesus... am I gonna be saying this too in the future? I'm always hoping we get actually good 3D sonic games but I haven't gotten one since generations when I was just a kid.
Not gonna lie,I was chuckling when you mentioned the concept of the next Sonic game was just HellDivers 2 with Sonic in it,and asking if that would still be a "Sonic" game.
Because "Ah yes,I love this cartoon blue hedgehog being in this gritty,hyper realistic setting while shooting aliens." (Wait a minute.)
can't wait for ppl to misinterpret all of your points and put some stupid label on you.
why would they?
It happens whenever I say anything remotely negative about Sonic, it's to be expected. People are *very* defensive over this series and project their own insecurities towards anyone they disagree with. It's fine if they disagree with what I say, but it's the toxicity that's a problem. I've covered it in previous videos and I hope I never have to again.
@@telekinesticman Yeah, The sonic fandom is truly full of some toxicity and negativity and you can't say anything without people on you.
I mean, I do want the series to be better, It's that some people will think that you're complaining.
Make no mistake, I *am* complaining, I'm just trying to do so in a constructive way that isn't annoying or whiny.
@@telekinesticman ngl I always feel like There are so few primarily negative critiques that don’t devolve
To whining about everything after watching your videos I started watching more negative views and critiques on Sonic games
And I feel like I’m a better fan for it 👍🏿
The fundamental issue with Sonic Team post adventure is that they stopped having confidence in Sonic. Rather than being trailblazers in their own right that alters the very fabric of the industry like in the Genesis days, they've stopped being faithful to themselves for the sake of chasing the current video game trends. Shadow the Hedgehog is infamous for trying to copy Ratchet and Clank, becoming a crude parody of edgy cash in games of the time. Sonic 06 is trying to incorporate as much of Final Fantasy into itself as much as humanly possible. Sonic Lost World is Mario Galaxy, Sonic Frontiers is BOTW, etc.
Sonic has transformed into this bizarre pop culture chameleon that has resigned to simply blending in with the background. And this distinct lack of confidence not only goes against Sonic on a fundamental level, but permeates every aspect of 3D Sonic games. From the inconsistent presentation to the gameplay being a Ship of Theseus that is now unrecognizable from where it started.
This lack of confidence culminates in Frontiers, and ESPECIALLY in it's custom physics slider. That has to be by far the dumbest thing to have ever been implemented in this franchise. Not only does it make it near impossible to make coherent level design due to not being able to account for the near infinite player actions, but also makes it more difficult to improve on whatever Frontiers was even trying to do due to the wildly different experiences it offers. Like everything in Frontiers, it's a hail mary throw done out of sheer desperation and cowardice, and I loath it and everything it stands for.
It's no coincidence how the best received Sonic games post-Geneis and pre-Frontiers were the games that tried to reconcile with Sonic's identity and have confidence in its strengths. Colors, Unleashed, Frontiers, Mania. They all at least TRIED to bring back that spark of confidence that was lost to varying degrees of success. Mania especially is the prime example thay suceeds in that, that game OOZES confidence in what it's trying to do, and truly felt like it was trying to stand out from the crowd. It truly felt like Sonic finally had it's act together, before Forces promptly shattered that illusion merely months later.
Forces and Frontiers are cold reminders that this issue cannot be resolved until some major changes happens at Sonic Team, and by extension Sega themselves.
I agree with this.
What really drags down Frontiers for me is how I want to beat the levels through my way of methods or move around in satisfying ways but some mechanics and scripting catch me and PUNISH me for not following their rules.
Kishimoto said that the inspirations they took were from Breath of the Wild, that game I've heard has wayy more freedom of choices the player can do and they are reward for that regardless of how they did it. In Frontiers, I have to condition myself with what catches and holds me hostage and knowing what I can do to avoid it which sounds horrible because why do I have to bind through a rule just so that I can keep my flow, rhythm, and momentum that I've been carrying myself with. That might sound fine but it would've been wayyy better if it weren't for scripted spots, automation, and such.
I don't want to be held hostage, I want to do MEEE, how MEEE wants to do it.
@felixdaniels37 Shadow the Hedgehog was trying to be Jak and Daxter. Jak 2 that is.
some guy said "some guy said 'erm okay?'"
I've been waiting for someone to make a video like this, thank you
Excellent video. You somehow managed to articulate all of the jumbled thoughts that have been floating in my head around for years now.
It is always so difficult to leave comments on these videos because I have nothing to say about them. The only thing I have to add is:
*nods* Yeah, pretty much!
I was never a huge fan of classic sonic, but I really took for granted how iconic the aesthetic was to sonic as a whole.
It's crazy how much we've devolved into just "real life" aesthetics with cities and just baron stretches of dirt & flora. (When they aren't just copying common level tropes)
Seriously, that classic-style surreality is unmatched. It only takes one look at "Sonic the Screensaver" to appreciate how charming it is
Although it is different from the Genesis games, I still think most of the 3D games have an appealing, sometimes downright beautiful, visual style in their own right. Not necessarily the same art style that Sonic started with, but still qualify on it's own. Frontiers, however, there is just absolutely no excuse for. This isn't a new observation, but omg it literally looks like a Unity asset flip made by one guy over a weekend. It just might the ugliest game of the 21st century thus far, and I am not kidding. At least something like Kane & Lynch 2: Dog Days was ugly on purpose, as a deliberate creative choice done to evoke an intended gross feel, which obviously gives it niche appeal but hey it IS the point. Frontiers, on the other hand, is supposed to be a cool and stylish Sonic game with mass appeal and yet it looks like... Well, like nobdoy cared.
@@SwizzleMix Those screensaver images kick ass
I think Sonic Colors has a nice blend of those bombastic colors while also being realistic to give sonic a fitting feel.
Why not both? Generations proved that classic aesthetics with a touch of realism look great.
This video shattered all my beliefs and opinions I had on 3D Sonic, and I'm grateful for it. Will watch it again
It’s funny how every 3D Sonic game has Mindless Homing Attack Chains but ONLY in Frontiers did I notice JUST how mindless they are. I swear at least 40% of that game’s level design is mindless homing attacks (the rest is all Automated LOL).
Do you mean Forces? I can't think of many Homing attack chains in frontiers
@@spinceiling7442 No, I said Frontiers. I can show you MANY homing attack chains in Frontiers.
@@spinceiling7442 Forces is more known for it's mindless boosting instead
Were you playing Easy mode? Because the towers add mindless homing attack chains if you select Easy mode to let you skip the platforming gameplay.
If that's the case...then are we admitting that Homing Attack chains are in fact easy and mindless?
Great video! I’ve always thought about Sonic as being primarily about flow, even moreso than it is about speed, so I appreciate the breakdown of the 3D games’ tendency to momentarily break that flow in increasingly absurd and unnecessary ways. I absolutely adore a lot of 3D Sonic games, so I hope other 3D Sonic fans can approach this analysis without predetermined hostility
literally a polishing of the SA2 mechanics with better grinding jumping / physics based springs / bouncing off enemies / modern solutions to making previously automated sections more physics based… is all anyone really asked for… not 8 “Temple Run” clones with shitty voice actors & with half assed gimmicks like “this time he carries a magic wand”… “this time he’s a wolf”… “this time he’s from the 90s”… “this time he has a gun”… “this time it’s Crash Twinsanity except they become Knuckles fists & Sonic mode retcons everyone to be fast”
Beyond based
Yeah I hate boost. Every modern sonic game is basically temple run. I want free roam!
Honestly, I was kind of with you, up until that very last line.
"If we can't even agree on what a Sonic game is, then it only shows how far the franchise has fallen."
I get the point very well; that Sega and Sonic Team have been so inconsistent in their design of the games, that it has led to everyone having a different understanding of what a Sonic game is, showing a lack of a clear identity; but I think it comes across as very dismissive of those different perspectives. Hell, I know people who are big fans of the 3D Sonic games who just aren't fans of the classic 2D stuff; and though I disagree heavily, there's nothing wrong with that.
I agree with the idea that it would be good for Sega to have different branches of Sonic games that can appeal to different audiences, but the business mind in me also knows that such a thing mostly works if the idea can sell enough to fund it along side the current output (and considering Frontiers was successful, focus is more than likely being built on that). But of course, that still is built on the idea that people generally have different preferences for the kind of Sonic game they want.
Even using BotW and TotK as an example as you've shown, there have also been plenty of people who actively preferred the previous 3D Zelda formula and just don't have any interest in the modern direction despite its success.
Overall, I think you make a ton of great points here, even points I disagree with, and I think what you said here can make for an excellent Sonic game; but I don't quite think that's the only way a Sonic game can work or be good.
I think his Metroid point has a lot of merit; Prime deviated a lot from what made 2D Metroid good, but still kept a lot of its identity from the older games and even reinterpreted some ideas to better fit a 3D environment. Prime is very different from 2D Metroid, but almost everyone agrees that it's still a Metroid game despite it. Plus, they still did 2D Metroid games like Dread.
3D Sonic games often have very little in common with their 2D counterparts outside of superficial elements, and because of that, it's led to people developing different ideas on what Sonic even is. Even current 2D Sonic games play more like their 3D counterparts, with Mania being the sole exception.
I don't think it would be as bad if 3D Sonic wasn't borderline Sonic in-name only, and we still got 2D games that built on what the originals did instead of... Superstars.
@@sonic5993 With all due respect, calling 3D Sonic "in-name only" kind of overlooks the entire point I was making here.
I'd say that this is ultimately not about different preferences because obviously everyone is gonna have their tastes for Sonic but I think there's a difference between natural shifts and what Sonic does. For example, BotW and TotK are still built upon cores that have always been present in Zelda's design such as the sense of exploration, the freedom for players to find their own path and more with TotK as a sequel still working off of and building upon the previous game and sure, some players didn't vibe with it but BotW and TotK still sold a LOT with plenty of players who enjoy it and this comes after Nintendo already did a lot with the previous 3D Zelda style. Now imagine if TotK just after BotW made a hard shift to a completely different gameplay style and then the game after that did. They're still technically exploration-based games but none of them feel like they have real connecting elements beyond the characters and some abilities. Then you'd run into Sonic's problem and what this video is really highlighting.
The thing is? This didn't need to be a thing. If SEGA and Sonic Team from the beginning built upon SA1's foundation and worked to improve the core gameplay along with whatever else they were doing then it really would be more of an aesthetic preference and what style you prefer but because we've gone through so many pointless shifts in gameplay, often to types that really feel like they're chasing trends more than anything? There are so many camps of Sonic fan when there never needed to be and in that time things keep getting ignored. The fact that Frontiers. a game released 24 YEARS after SA1 finally addressed certain mechanics by allowing you to tweak the jump deceleration and thus ensure Sonic doesn't lose momentum when doing one simple action is insane to me. Like you compare that to Mario where continuously with his games they maintain the gameplay and refine its core while adding new things to keep it fresh and it's stunning to see because at that point, it really highlights that Sonic Team and SEGA were seemingly so scared of the series growing stagnant that in their pursuit of new gameplay styles? They've let certain mechanics go stagnant.
@@the-aspiring-creator4249 I think that's a valid perspective; though I'd argue the games immediately after Adventure didn't have such a sharp departure in terms of core gameplay, more that none of the changes made actively felt like improvements.
SA2's overall structure was different for sure, but Sonic fundamental control and gameplay was largely retained.
And though both Heroes and Shadow feature unique mechanics to their games, their base is still built around SA1's speed style.
In this sense, I'd say it's not overly different from 3D Mario in this regard given the differences between 64, Sunshine, and Galaxy.
The issue Sonic faced was that a ton of these changes kept being made for the worse until reaching a breaking point in 06; where the aftermath is where we really started to see a huge sprawl in game styles with Secret Rings and Unleashed.
And even then, Unleashed's boost formula was stuck with and developed up until Lost World came around (and to concede my own point here, this change really did feel needless).
And when Sega did try going back to the boost formula with Forces, it lacked much of what made that style work so well to begin with; so once again, the decision came to reinvent the wheel with Frontiers now.
EDIT: I kind of lost my plot a bit with this comment, so I'll shorten my point to this:
it's 100% right and on Sega that they failed to effectively build upon their base 3D gameplay well enough to where they could go easily go back to what worked instead of having to scrap the entire formula. That said, I don't think going back to emulate those fundamentals or the 2D games is the *only* path to be a successful Sonic game; especially with Frontiers now being able to act as a new foundation.
@@anotherjon6997 I said "borderline" I didn't say that they were entirely devoid of them.
But you can agree Sonic doesn't resemble its original incarnation right?
I love these videos. They are very well made and the topics at hand are always fun to think about, (especially the ones unrelated to Sonic lol) I think there is much to be discussed about what it means to preserve, adapt, and change conventions in legacy media. Also, gotta love the 2 second Outer Wilds footage :p
At this point it's a mandatory inclusion in every video, because I don't think I'll ever make a video about it on its own. I have no idea what I could possibly add that would be worthwhile and interesting. It's the best game ever made, period.
Although I hear Animal Well is very similar, so I'll definitely be trying that soon too.
@@telekinesticman You probably already thought of this, but maybe just talk about your personal journey through the game? How you found it, your playthrough, and what you got out of it? I think thats something interesting and new.
Animal Well is something I've never heard of, but I might try it out some day
Some guy said some guy said “erm okay?”
I like the more realistic look of the 3D games and their more serious stories with humans. It fits Sonic and his cool feel. Not every game needs to go for the classic art style.
Me too. My problem with the classic games is that I just don't like that art style too much. I do love Generations and Unleashes styles, though.
Nah even tho I agree with some of Caelum's points it feels like most of this vid comes down to "hey either it gotta be Classic Sonic inspired or it ain't legit"
Care to explain HOW any if that fits Sonic's "cool" factor? I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but the fact that basically every Sonic game that even approaches realism and serious stories ends up being relentlessly mocked seems to feed into the exact opposite.
In trying so hard to make Sonic "cool" by changing his identity to appeal to surface level trends, he only ends up feeling lame.
@@entertainer_ev2747 I agree. I don't even like Classic Sonic that much, so I prefer something more unique.
I don't see how Classic Sonic is less unique than realistic cities and flat plains of grass, but to each their own, I guess.
The single biggest advantage for 3D Sonic if used properly, is draw distance.
In 2D Sonic because of the 4:3 aspect ratio of old TV's, it can be hard to avoid certain traps & obstacles when playing through stages blind since you can only look ahead so far. Even with a majority of stage elements in 2D Sonic games being built around preserving Sonic's momentum, it can be frustrating to run into a stage trap that can only be avoided with prior knowledge of the stage's layout. It's one of those things you easily forget about after playing for a while beyond your initial experience, but still aggravating for newcomers nonetheless.
With 3D Sonic bringing greatly increased draw distance to it's stage environments, this allows for players to naturally react to oncoming obstacles as they become more & more familiar with Sonics gameplay. Repeated playthroughs would still be required for players to master the stages & gameplay, but hindsight knowledge would no longer be required to dodge any annoying pitfalls that could potentially kill the players momentum. Not only that, but players can also hone in on the stage elements that they can take advantage of to further increase their momentum. If Sonic Team we're to reimplement the elements from 2D Sonic that you described into 3D Sonic paired with the inherently improved draw distance, I'm confident that the final product would surpass 2D Sonic in the overall gameplay experience.
Absolutely. I spoke about this in my Penny's Big Breakaway video as well.
I was really happy to see you show off SRB2. I have a lot of issues with the game, but overall it feels so much better than a lot of 3D sonic titles.
Great thoughts about gameplay, don't agree with the artstyle opinion.
Sonic 2 was already moving away from surrealism, and Sonic 3 looks much more like Sonic Adventure than Sonic 1
I think I cut out quite a bit from that section to save time, because I was mostly here to discuss gameplay, but you're right about Sonic 3 already being more realistic than the previous games. The "classic" style is quite broad - Sonic 1 and CD are much more surreal than the other games, with 2 and 3 focusing more on the mechanical and natural detail. This is why I described the aesthetic as "eclectic", as it's borrowing from so many different inspirations to create something new and appealing.
The point though is that Sonic 3 still looks a lot more cartoony and colourful than most of Adventure 1, just look at something like Launch Base or Mushroom Hill. Again, the prototype of Windy Valley looks *way* more like a "Sonic level" than most of Adventure.
Excellent video and analysis as always. I’m so glad you brought up the harsh difference in aesthetics and tone between classic and modern. Colors was the last game we got that brought back those whimsical, colorful, and ORIGINAL level themes. If only the gameplay were at the same level.
Wow uh. . . You changed some of my perspective on things, awesome video dude!!!
Personally I think going after SA1’s art style should be a civil offense
I mean the whole sonic 1 itself wasn’t faithful to green hill that made sonic so cool and fast, only green hill and starlight zone were fast paced, others like marble zone were slow
Loving the video, but just wanted to say that while 15:36 is technically true, you can get the light speed dash to act like the adventure one by upgrading the speed stat. Whether or not locking that behind upgrading was a good idea though yeah idk
This was a great video and gives me something(s) to think about in terms of this series’ identity moving forward.
Honestly I feel like after the adventure games they wanted to try something new with each new installment but just didn't know what to do or what direction to take
After? The sa games themselves are examples of them wanting to try new things. I mean, sa1 has so much random stuff thrown in it it's like they wanted to make anything but a Sonic game.
This video actually made me cry. i just want sonic to be good. this made me so sad.
I think it honestly is kind of sad how much a good chunk of the fanbase actively resent the classic identity just for how its overshadowed the modern games in terms of quality all the way down to the aesthetic's of those games. To echo a brief hypothesis from a video by Pariah, I truly would not have any problems with a 3D Sonic having everything be the same as the Adventure games but having aesthetics matching the general vision of Sonic during the Saturn era, and the same goes for gameplay. As much as I enjoy Frontiers, if the next game did away with bad puzzles, stock unity maps, along with the general lack of style in a majority of cutscenes, and leaned more towards what we got from the Spin Dash, with true classic sonic physics, i would genuinely not have a problem with that.
You mentioned the "boring" action chain challenges but I want them to be the blueprint for Sonic unlocking things (would rather it not be a core part of his moveset that makes the game better) through maintaining a score combo via a flow of actions (much like Tony Hawk), with higher scores unlocking either more of the map, or a certain skill for Sonic (rather than just handing it to you via a skill tree or getting an arbitrary combat move from saving his friends). It would certainly be better than playing Google Play Legend of Zelda for a chunk of map.
Again, I'm saying all this as someone who consiiders Frontiers an 8/10, I think its a good game and it really brought me back down to what I like about Sonic. But I still see the value of honoring Sonic's better games through one that properly translates his most defining and unique aspects.
Couldn’t have it said any better myself
The series has been so thoroughly comprised of its identity that people actively reject anything that doesn't fit the mold of what they specifically came up with.
SA’s art style was fine, though. You don’t need to change that, either.
@@sonic5993Isn’t everyone here doing exactly that?
@@littlemoth4956 I like the Adventure art style fine enough, I still think a game tapping into the environments and aesthetic of Sonic R and CD would be great tho.
I actually really like the homing attack. I enjoy the way it feels to use, and how you have to time it sometimes. I also really like using it in 2d levels like Sonic 4 Episode 2 and the 3DS version of Generations' Classic Sonic levels. I like how it slows down your moment in the air, so you can chain homing attacks together with more precise timing.
I also really like how sword slashing works in Black Knights, while your character does slow down, you don't, because to slash at an enemy you have to swing the Wii Remote, so even when Sonic slows down you still feel that sense of movement through your actual movements.
First of all, let me thank you for making one of these videos and having enough understanding of this concept to be able to actually justify making it. Too many people make these video essays on Sonic Gameplay, very clearly do not know what they want, merely complain, and worse, have absolutely 0 understanding of game design in general.
All that being said, I see Sonic Frontiers (v1.40 specifically) as being the best attempt to make Sonic work in 3D. Not Classic Sonic's gameplay, necessarily, but Classic Sonic's nature as a character and portrayal in the world. What I mean by this, is that Sonic CD's cutscenes, Sonic X and the Sonic OVA DO NOT portray his in-game movements at all. Very little sense of momentum or weight to his animated actions, What they do instead, is portray very quick, vectored/splined movement across a landscape, like a cannonball that can stop and turn. Shagging ass from a mountain down to a valley, and being able to control whether or not you stick to the ground when you run over a bump in terrain (the primary difference between boosting, rolling, and spindashing, by the way) is what gives you true freedom of movement. Classic Sonic is deep inside that gameplay style, just buried. All of the fundamental pieces are in place for any of the past boost titles to be that Classic Sonic in 3D game you want, but Sonic Team really loves getting in its own way.
I don't think this is a "problem." This is just a different kind of game entirely. I agree that we need some 3D Classic Sonic momentum-based games, but I wouldn't give up Unleashed, Generations, or Frontiers for that. I think they are their own thing, and I think that's a-ok, as long as SEGA learns the difference, which I think they are beginning to do.
As great as Generations was, it what caused Sega to make this split with Classic and Modern. Ironically, it made things “worse” without meaning to.
Mr telekinesis man, I was the fellow chat member in your prime stream telling you to check out a specific momentum platformer which I had special hands on experience with at the most recent Games Developers Conference in sf.
I god my hands on an early access version of HASTE broken worlds.
Please check out gameplay footage of that game, because playing it with a controller felt 82 times more satisfying than what you got to see through a video.
This is an excellent essay by the way. Fantastic work, and I am eagerly awaiting whatever the next project will look like from Evening star. I haven’t had as much fun as I did in Pennys Big Breakaway in decades, that game will forever have a special place in my heart.
Thank you! Yeah, I've got Haste on my wishlist already, and I remember seeing videos of it on Twitter a while back. It looks great!
Penny's Big Breakaway is everything I love in speedy platforming
14:00 I don't think the flow of sonic was ruined by its 3D games, it was just a different kind of making speed a reward and things such as
the homing attack from multiple games was so smooth you coul hardly notice any loss of momentum (not all games do that)
Great video!
"Sonic is Sonic"
"Sonic can be anything"
"...Except when it's a classic Sonic inspired game, that's nostalgia pandering"
Excellent video as always
Yep. 20+ years of Modern Sonic, god forbid anyone wants a game that looks and plays more like the classics which made Sonic a household name in the first place.
@@telekinesticman Two decades of random ideas and playstyles, but a 3D game faithful to Sonic's roots is the one game we can't have
@@oswald-kp1bmapparently it's propaganda, and some form of media Sonic can't exist in. Something about rocking the boat, but it's all theorizing that could be misconceptionalized. Even if that's the case if we got a game like what we want in 3D Sonic in terms of playing to his strengths they're still getting more Sonic so I don't know what's up with them
32:36 The first thought I had when I played Super Mario Odyssey was “I don’t know how to explain what makes me say this but this is the best Sonic game I’ve ever played.” (I now know how to explain; hear me out).
For me, the most important aspects of Sonic gameplay have always been skill-based exploration, momentum*, and freedom, all tied together by speed. I didn’t realize these were the things I valued most in Sonic gameplay and wanted the most out of the 3D games until I played Odyssey, which is a game that embodies all three of those aspects amazingly, only lacking the “speed” aspect that glues all of those things together. It was an _implicit understanding_ of what makes a Sonic game a Sonic game, just like you said.
I have since given it thought and now _explicitly_ understand what makes a Sonic game a Sonic game to me and why Odyssey made me feel that way:
*Skill-based exploration:* one of my favorite parts about the classic games is how you can discover secrets and alternative paths through skill expression. It’s not as simple as just checking behind a secret door; you have to be good enough at the game’s core movement mechanics to gain access to the top paths, find the giant secret stage rings, pass though a checkpoint with enough rings to unlock the bonus stage, etc. For Odyssey, this same concept applies, only _its_ core movement and skill revolves mastery of Cappy instead of slope physics. Speaking of…
*Momentum:* I put an asterisk here because I’m not JUST talking about slope physics. I’m also talking about being able to maintain an uninterrupted flow, again based on your skill. In classic games, this means maintaining the speed you’ve earned and steadily earning more by knowing the layout well, dodging traps, staying on the top path, and bouncing off of enemies, in addition to literally rolling down slopes. For Odyssey? I got into the game through watching speedrunners and found that even at my level, the better I got at the movement, the more I was able to maintain a state of flow if I wanted to, keeping things moving and flying up and down and all around the level.
*Freedom:* For Sonic games, this means little to no automation, the freedom to actually engage with the exploration and momentum I just discussed however and whenever you want, and a lack of restraint on how you are allowed to do so. No limits. This is the aspect I appreciate the most from fan games and Sonic-likes, like the ones you showed in the video. You can run on any wall and vault over any obstacle if you have the skill to. Even linear Sonic levels have the potential to become sandboxes in terms of how you can choose to engage with the movement and momentum you build to complete it, developing your own style. This could manifest itself in tons of ways, like a parkour system for instance.
The classic games, Advance games, and even Rush games I’d argue all do this FAR better than any 3D Sonic game. Frontiers _technically_ does this the best out of any 3D game, but you have to intentionally play around the automation littered literally everywhere in order to do so; my ideal Sonic game would have none whatsoever to have to avoid in the first place. And Odyssey does this in ways I hardly feel I need to mention; Cappy is the ultimate tool for this kind of thing, and Odyssey doesn’t hold him back from reaching his potential at all.
And I was able to recognize all of this in Odyssey subconsciously, before I was even able to explain what it was I had recognized. Like you said: it’s implicit. Deep down, we all can sense what makes a real Sonic game a Sonic game. I’m sure even Sonic Team knows this; I just hope they begin to _explicitly_ recognize them too someday.
6:50 I am a SA2 lover and think being linear isn't a problem, it still has what sonic is all about FOR ME which is SPEED and MASTERY
which are there in a new style of gameplay
yes thank you 3d is good
yeah being linear is fine and the movement like he said in stuff like spin dash jumping is awesome, the biggest problem for me is booting up pyramid cave or green forest and paradoxically thinking “HURRY UP” when i’m going through a loop or dash panel jump
Excellent video. Found myself agreeing with a LOT more of your points than i expected to going in, especially as someone who enjoys 3D Sonic at large. Your mentions of the springs, spamdash, and homing attack in SA1 are points i especially resonate with. Also it's interesting that when mentioning the homing attack in 2D u didn't really talk about the one from the Rush series which ironically does retain your horizontal momentum even if the badnik bounce is effectively absent of those games. Also really appreciate the shoutout to sonic spitball as it's a video series i regularly come back to, especially the 3rd episode.
It’s tiring seeing Sonic Teams continues attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole, refusing to reassess the situation, opting instead to try fitting it into different round holes in the hope that it will eventually fit, despite fans' warnings to the contrary only to begrudging accept that it might work this time around.
Yeah, not falling for this anymore. After Superstars I completely don't trust Sonic Team or mainly Sega to do Sonic right in anything whether it's a 3D game, 2D game, heck even a re-release of an old game, and the fact they ruined my childhood game Sonic Colors with Ultimate I doubt Sonic Generations is gonna be good, or any game in the future
@@derple8524
Superstars wasn't even developed by Sonic Team lmao
This video is extremely well written and intelligently tackles any possible counter argument in a fair and reasonsable manner. Some points can feel like the same schtick the community has been going over constantly but that's more SEGA's fault than anyone else so I don't see an issue. You're honestly my favorite critic online atm, I'd be interested in knowing like 3 of your favorite video game critics at the moment.
In my opinion I feel not only did the parkour have lots of potential, I feel like the two-homing attack thing Lost World was doing has potential to add more depth to homing attacks when it comes to combat. I like the idea of having two homing attacks that only work for specific enemies that rewards you for using the right attack. Like hitting a low or hitting a high rewards you in a fighting game. For an extension of momentum you can maybe have it so regular homing attack carries momentum forward like in the Classic while the kick one can propel sonic upward, making it useful for certain level design rewards.
Thank you! That point about the kick is actually something I cut from the script. Let the kick stop Sonic as normal, but then the homing attack can carry his momentum, so players have more control.
As for my favourite game critics, I've been very inspired by Matthewmatosis, Joseph Anderson, and a few others like Nerrel, Shoogles (formerly ShayMay), Pariah695, JebZone, and KingK. I watch a *lot* of game/film criticism but these are definitely my highlights.
Excellent video, great use of proper terminology and cross-game analysis.
Well, you basically said what I've and many others have been thinking for decades. Between you and Pariah695 I've better come to realize what makes an engaging experience, sonic game or not. I can accept a sonic game for what it is like Heroes or unwiished if they're cleverly designed in their own right.
I definitely want to play Unwished , that games day stages look pretty cool.
Good video, and I agree with everything you said about the gameplay and the franchise split, but I honestly love Sonic in more realistic environments. I think SA1, Unleashed and Frontiers have the best aesthetics in the entire series, barring Mania cause Mania is just too good, and Sega has always blended cartooniness and realism really damn well.
yes thank you sonic in city is cool
@@fazelfarrokhi1998 goofy
This was a VERY necessary video to make. And i may not fully agree with everything you've said, but by and large i agree with your main point here. Sonic games need to play to the sttengths of the series again and its been FAR too long since that has happened.
I recall the "Additive Homing" mod (21:12?) for Sonic Generations which i initially had set aside due to the level design not accommodating for it, but this video made me realize how fun a Sonic game that revolves around a homing attack that carries horizontal speed would be.
Damn, never heard someone put it like this, I think I'm now a susbscriber
time to get snacks and a beer cuz theres a new sonic video essay
"if you think its ridiculous for me to joke that the next sonic game will play like hell divers"
SIKE that's the wrong number, its fall guys
Just wanted to add up to this by saying that in SA1, by quickly pressing the spindash button, sonic does not in fact loses his speed and transitionss into his roll state naturally, its the same as Tails and Knuckles although we do hear the charge sounds, it behaves the same, and the speed in which he gains while going down slopes in a rolling state is still faster than spamming the spindash.
Do you think the advance/rush games does a good job of emulating classic sonic ?
Advance more than Rush, but overall I'd say no, or not quite, but they are MUCH closer than any of the 3D games for sure.
SA1 and SA2 felt the closest we got to a good transition from 2d to 3d, and I feel like if they would’ve kept improving on that formula, then they would’ve had something pretty solid. The fact that they keep deciding to abandon gameplay every few games puts the series into a “reboot” cycle every few years where they have to keep trying to experiment and rework the movement from scratch every few years.
Sa2 regressed the already very flawed "formula" quite a bit, effectively showing it had no future.
@@snakey888 I wouldn't say so, it's more that SA2 made improvements in some areas... and went backwards in a lot of ways. SA1's level design for example is nice and open, loaded with pathways and goodies to discover that reward the player's curiosity like the classics. SA2? Just goes linear and now the levels deliver high speed thrills but they don't have much going for them. SA1 with the lightspeed dash made something that works for Sonic's simplistic gameplay due to how it's activated but it is a little stop and go. SA2 fixed this by making it instaneous... but it comes at the expense of being mapped to one button and being somewhat finicky to trigger because of it. SA1... admittedly had too many characters and it led to clearly some having less attention than others and in some cases the gameplay was not fitting of Sonic's fundamentals. SA2 made a good choice in cutting them down but then it ran into the issue of gimping certain mechanics that worked well in the previous and there's still the linearity problem.
If SA2 really built upon SA1's level design and ironed out the quirks? They easily would've had a great sequel because the foundation is there but it's like SEGA is allergic to building upon it.
@@the-aspiring-creator4249
Thing is, sa2 has less gameplay styles, but the ones that are there stray even further from Sonic's fundamentals, and they make up a significantly larger portion of the game, 2/3rds rather than sa1's 1/2.
Even the lightspeed dash being instantaneous isn't necessarily an improvement, seeing as it fuels the issue of automation.
The only significant improvement sa2 did over sa1 was in the technical-graphical department: doubled the framerate, longer draw distance, continuous stages and the like.
@@snakey888 To be fair, that sums up the problems with Sonic Team's approach to SA2 in general. For every improvement it makes, there's a caveat. Like the thing about the lightspeed dash to me is that it is an improvement to make it instaneous and I've seen in fan projects and romhacks how it can be a fun move that feels like a natural part of Sonic's moveset and can work with a momentum based system. The problem is Sonic Team just chose to make it a move you do to occasionally get over a pit or get a point bonus.
So in a way the more I think about it, I think I agree with your assessment of the style... in the sense that there was no hope for it with Sonic Team or at least Sonic Team in terms of how it currently works.
This is the best video about 3D Sonic I had seen in a while. 100% agree
In conclusion: 3D SONC always has speed as a reward, just in different ways
Great perspective you came with on this video! I never realised all these problems have been here from the very start and were just, never improved upon 😅 Yet I can’t help but feel sad.
Similar to what you said in the video, I have been watching videos trying to improve the series like this since I was a little boy and yet nothing has changed 😭 we haven’t gotten any closer to this type of sonic game, I wonder if we ever will…
it’s so hard being a mostly classic fan. especially when people insist you’re wrong for it because 3D sonic is so much better in their eyes.
It's kind of frustrating because they have this idea that Sonic shouldn't cater to us because people like the direction of the 3D games, but we could easily flip that around the other way. Lots of people *don't* like the direction of the 3D games (they objectively don't review as well as the classics either), so why shouldn't they go back to the style people liked in the first place? People making this argument are ironically supporting the entire thesis at the end of this video about how we can't even agree on what Sonic is anymore.
@@telekinesticmanthat hit harder when I remember where I started as a fan with Colors. Yet prefer what games like Spark 3 and Rollin Rascal offer in freedom of movement
@@derple8524 and to an extent PBB
Sonic Superstars is less than a year old.
I gave this video a fair shake, and I'll grant the vast majority of your points are entirely agreeable, BUT despite my love of Sonic fan games that do deliver on the shortcomings of 3D sonic as he's become I must also note that from my personal experience there's a lot of over-correcting that's been done that makes me realize that maybe, JUST MAYBE some of the things that we hold as issues with 3D Sonic games are perhaps more necessary than we'd like to believe.
I think them being too attached to retro and making Classic Sonic their golden boy along making Modern Sonic just a copy of Classic Sonic is what made this an issue... If they want good 3D games, they need to stop devolving games back to the 2D era...
They really need to get rid of that slider shit and have confidence in their controls you're right
They need to get rid of options in a video game.
Even though the default physics are pretty good.