+NitroRad That's what I hated about Tropical Freeze. Water levels came back and were as aesthetically pleasing as ever, but they added an oxygen meter. It's so hard to get immersed in the aquatic ambiance (pun intended) when I'm too focused on not drowning. Also, why is it that in the 3D Mario games, he drowns if he stays underwater for too long, but in the 2D Mario games, he's suddenly capable of staying underwater for as long as he wants?
+RyanX1231 i guess when your 2d your lungs are flat as shit so you dont need oxygen to begin with. Or if were going by paper mario logic, youre a piece of paper who doesnt have organs
One problem I can think of in water levels is when, like in Ocarina, the main puzzle of the dungeon is figuring out how to change the water level. Especially when there's a little cut scene for whenever you do it. It just feels like a time-waster then.
As much as I disagreed with a LOT of shit in Egoraptor's sequelitis video, I did at least agree with the bit about how you have to WAIT for so much shit in OOT.
Oh shit, I completely didn't mean to reference that, but yeah that was one of the very few things I agreed with as well. I don't really his sequelitis videos that much, but that video was the one I agreed with the least
Yeah, he's really just biased towards Alttp, and by the middle he was literally just nitpicking and trying to find stupid reasons why OOT isn't as good. His argument with the Z axis and combat and the treasure chests were all really really stupid.
Yeah, the whole combat and adventuring feel disconnected spiel was bullshit. Also I didn't get why he felt the need to bash Skyward Sword either. I personally am indifferent about that game, but there was no real reason for him to put it in the video that, from the description, had nothing to do with that specific game. Unless he was putting it in there just to "waste my time"
Pat Magroin the kinda did what about those moments in the shadow temple(I absolutely loathe that place) when you get to the skull knights or whatever can't remember the name, every time you needed to go somewhere for the entire first half you had to beet them and not the mention the ones on the ship, every time I died to bongo bongo and refilled my hearts those pricks would end up dealing at least a little bit of damage making harder for the boss to be defeated
When I played Darksiders, the underwater parts reminded me of Spyro. Fast paced and easy to control. Also there's no air supply time limit in Darksiders.
The thing that really makes me not like water levels is the feeling of claustrophobia. Once you're in a water level, it's often hard to leave or sometimes you're stuck there permanently until you've completed it. Ice levels are kind of the same way for me. They always make me feel like I have to finish the level right now so I can get out.
I don't think that slow-paced water levels are by default bad game design, I think this is one of those gaming apsects that appeals to certain players but not to others. A slow paced level isn't necessarely bad. For me moving slow gives a deeper touch of immersion in water levels, since the character's vivid underwater movement makes me feel like I really am there. Sometimes it's a bit too forced, like in OoT and Skies of Arcadia, but when balanced properly being slow paced can definetely help some players become more immersed. This of course doesn't work for some more fast-paced gamers, but if one prefers a calmer, slow-paced and longer approach to certain games, it can really help to immerse the player in the experience. You usually don't find water levels like these in quick, fast-paced games, they are always showing up on long adventures such as platformers or action adventures. While I think that what you said is very valid for more fast-paced players like you, I feel like the main consensus for water level hate is focused on the controls. Not only do water levels completely change the controls in a game where all other levels have similar mechanics, but making good underwater controls can often be hard, which leads to a lot of frustration, especially because, as you said, this levels can take a bit longer. P.S.: I personally always loved the aesthetic design of the Water Temple. The drawings on the walls, the statues, that room in the middle of nowhere with Dark Link... Although I will admit that the temple's boss sucked royally. I really want to know who thought that an A̶m̶i̶i̶b̶o amoeba would make for a good boss
Associating a great game with something else great but seemingly unrelated. for me that would be Resident Evil 4 and Tom Jones's "It's Not Unusual." It was comical for me to be shooting up the infected people with the Chicago Typewriter while listening to such an upbeat song.
I really loved the water levels in Rayman Origins. At one point you go through a door and everything goes dark. The music changes to this beautiful haunting track. You have to navigate through deep sea creatures using tiny glowing fish. It also helps that Rayman's swimming controls are superb.
Not necessarily. Point and clicks as well as adventure games benefit from them before mechanics. What should die is changing mechanics to fit the theme. You shouldn't suddenly be thrown into a different game if only one level is wetter than others.
Can't really name a favorite water level, but my god the water levels in Bubsy 3D are horrendous. The game is already terrible, but now you have to swim using tank controls, you have limited oxygen, and you now lack your jump as an attack and instead gain a dash move that will deplete your oxygen even faster. And the worst part are two enemy types that will home in on you if you get slightly close to them, they are nearly impossible to avoid and can easily hit you multiple times in a row.
I can think of two other reasons. 1. You can't breath underwater, which means you have to rush to land which just isn't fun. Some games let you breath underwater though, i'm just talking about the ones where you can't, such as Conker's Bad Fur Day, Ty and the first half of Ratchet & Clank, allthough you get an O2 mask later in that game. 2. Floatiness. In some water levels, you float a lot, most notably to me is in Mario games. Floatiness makes it much harder to avoid enemies, catch collectibles and precision.
I was impressed there weren't any other videos analyzing the bad reputation water levels carry. Now I understand why: you covered pretty much every angle of it, giving good and bad examples, and very logic argumentation. What wasn't covered, it was discussed in the comments! (Maybe an update about good/bad and innovations examples, but that's about it, I guess). Great Work!!
Honestly, I feel that the reason that most water levels are bad is because they rarely feel like the developers don't give them the same amount of attention when designing their physics. By failing to polish how the character moves around in the level itself, they also fail to make them enjoyable, even without considering length or aesthetic. One great example of a series that gives water levels full on attention would be the Starfy series. The main focus of the Starfy series is buoyancy, how the main character traverses the water, and it does so exceedingly well. In fact, the sections outside the water, while still fun and fast-paced, tend to be less memorable than those that take place underwater. It's definitely an interesting way of dealing with the water level wart that plagues a good amount of platformers.
Those were 4 very good points but I have a smaller point that I can think of. Point #(Personal): Water levels shouldn't make you dread the water. For example in many water levels there is a drowning mechanic which makes sense as most characters can't breath underwater. However this can be done wrong in multiple ways. The first one is included with your mention of hindering gameplay because some water levels with drowning mechanics require you to either constantly return to the surface or constantly seek out air bubbles (Ex. Sonic). This makes getting through the level several times longer as you are constantly back tracking to stay alive. The second one comes into play when you are close to drowning. It's nice if a game warns you when you are near drowning but some games take it too far. Again take Sonic for an example as in sonic when you are close to drowning the music changes to this almost Jaws like music that gets faster and faster paced and it really makes you feel like you are about to die or something is about to get you. Do you think this was pleasant for most people? Of course not I for one DREADED letting myself get even close to drowning and I was always a little tense because that music was almost scary especially for a kid. This ruins the water level because instead of enjoying the change of pace you are just praying it ends as soon as possible because the game has turned water into this scary evil thing that is trying to kill you. Again a drowning Mechanic isn't bad by default as it can add some extra challenge without hindering gameplay. But for many games a drowning mechanic means backtracking and unpleasant music when you are close to drowning.
I think the perfect Water level in a Sonic game was the Hydrocity Zone. Even though the drowning mechanic was there. The water bubble power-up null & voids it. The bubble also served as sort of a smash attack on land and actually made you bounce twice as high underwater, since naturally Sonic jumped twice as high underwater at the cost of slowing down some. The best thing about that zone is that it wasn't always underwater, there were some sections where Sonic would be on land above the levels of the water and some sections where Sonic could actually run across full sections of the level just from running across the water. It's kind of a level that actually rewards you for finding the fastest pathway through the level since it involved making minimal contact with the water anyway. And the fact the Sonic 3 had the longest levels of the first 3 Sonic games, both acts of the Hydocity Zone felt like any other Zone once you got good and it didn't feel like a maze.
Metazoxan Dexall Also, making the controls super slow and awkward underwater. I immediately though of Rayman 2's water levels. I love the game, but the water levels are everything you said. I dread every single water section because the controls are slow and clunky, and bumping into anything is almost an instant death. No matter how far your air meter goes up it always drains in 15 seconds or less, which leaves you panicking to find a Blue Lum. And the near drowning noise sounds like an army of rubber chickens being strangled, but somehow worse.
I think Whale Bay in Rayman 2 is a pretty solid water level. The speed is a bit slow, but the way you actually swim is well thought out. Also, the auto-scroll sequence before Lungfishopolis in Psychonauts is really good too, but it's technically not a level where you swim, but you still move through water.
Alex Andnope You sure about Whale Bay? The controls are super clunky, bumping into anything is a death sentence and I found myself panicking so much throughout the level because of the air meter and that I was going to miss something.
Have you ever considered bringing this back and making it a series? I loved your take on this and I think it would add some nice variety to your usual type of (already incredibly high quality) videos.
This is one of your best. Have recently discovered the channel and really enjoyed this video in particular. You conveyed your points successfully and in a very well organised and fun to watch way. I personally remember fearing the water in older games as most would instantly kill you. Limited oxygen would always scare me, being young I wasn't very good at the games and time pressure would be really hard to deal with. While playing Rayman 3, I remember feeling bad about the water until I jumped in and Rayman started using his hair as a propeller. The idea was so fun to me! Also, foreshadowing the boss in that scene was a stroke of genius. One of the first games I ever completed, if not THE first.
I gave you shit when you first started this channel, but now I can only regret it. Your videos have gotten way better, watching them doesn't feel boring or uninteresting, and that's the mark of a good TH-camr! I just want to point out one thing though: when you use static on your transitions, TH-cam goes a little crazy and fucks up the footage from seconds before it
well, if u ignore the fact the slow-mo under water its on purpose to create that frustration to make the player more rewarded u got a point, but do not confuse bad game design with diferents concepts of fun. About the color palette, dude... mario 64 water lv and water tample are almost the same. :/
Great job, Nitro. It seems like you improve with every video. And there's something I can't quite put my finger on that gives your work a distinct appeal. I hope you decide to analyze another aspect of game design.
I am glad you brought up Rayman Legend's water levels. Not only does it look fuckin' beautiful, but plays so damn well, I remember playing it co-op with my friend and when we finished it, I told him "this is how you do a water level".
I've never actually thought about it till now, but whenever I play good water levels like the ones in rayman legends, I tend to forget I'm playing a stereotypical water level and treat the level like the rest of them, great! So I think you know a water level is good if you actually don't notice you're playing something that is almost always seen as 'bad' Also, great video :D it was nice having these facts brought to attention, especially since it's a topic not usually discussed
Why doesn't the water temple of Skyward Sword ever get any love? That is one of the best water levels I have ever played. Gorgeous, aesthetically different (the lotus theme was a brilliant idea), and it was a lot of fun to play through. It honestly feels designed to make up for the flaws of Ocarina' s temple. Heck, even the BOSS was awesome.
I'm going to bring up another series that handles water levels pretty well: Spyro. More specifically, Spyro 2 and 3 on the PS1. In these games, Spyro is able to move around just as freely and quickly as how he would on land. It's a plus not just because of how responsive Spyro is, but also because he is just as powerful as he would normally be on land. Sure, he can't breathe fire underwater, but his charge makes up for that, doubling as an attacking move and a speed boost. Many underwater levels in the game stand out pretty well thanks to its use of colour and theming. Examples include Sunny Beach and Aquarius Towers in Spyro 2, and Seashell Shore and Lost Fleet in Spyro 3. An example of a game that has poor water level design, sadly, is Banjo-Kazooie. In a game where collecting things is the main point and is required for progressing forward, it becomes monstrously infuriating to make your way through a level that has water sections in it. Controlling the duo underwater is tedious enough, but picking up underwater collectibles becomes a CHORE. I've lost track of the amount of times I've tried to swim towards a single collectible, only to run into the seafloor or the side of a wall by mistake; all the time desperately trying to steer Banjo and Kazooie in the right direction. At least Banjo-Kazooie has some visually-appealing water levels. Clanker's Cavern, for instance.
nice kill la kill poster :D also really great video too, im surprised you dont get more attention, your points are stated clearly and the video is well edited and presented to make it entertaining, engaging and informative. your good at speaking too. i have a feeling you will soon have far more attention ;)
Since I've been studying Metroidvanias, let's talk about Metroid Prime 2 and Fusion's water levels! In Prime 2, you have Torvus Bog. This swampy place with a lot of water and a flooded machine area. Being in the water hinders movement, of course, and enemies have enhanced movement. Some enemies even suck you towards them or charge at you whilst in water causing your dodge move to be less than effective. Combine this with poor visibility as well as natural terrain that even further hinders your movement and you will have a bad time. The level also takes a fuckton of time to get through before you finally find the Gravity Boost that lets you not only move freely, but also enhances your jump height underwater. The only problem is that there's a fucking boss you need to kill immediately after getting it. Sure, now you're on somewhat even terrain, but why? It just feels like padding at this point. This section of the game was already long enough with puzzles to solve and difficult enemies to kill. Just let me get to the next part! Not every item needs a boss battle with it. It just feels like a slog. At least there's a watery remix of Red Brinstar, that's pretty cool. And now Fusion's. The dreaded (AQA) appears in screen and we already know what that means. "Ugh... Aquatic level." However, Sector 4 is one of my favorite sections of the game and it is very under-utilized. You come here a total of only two times. Once above water seeking a monster called Serris and the other underwater after you acquired the Gravity Suit, so really you just get to see awesome visuals and hear the most relaxing and yet ominous water level music in any game ever. On your first visit, you're told that the water's electrified, so touching it results in damage. So there's literally no need to enter water. There are a handful of sections that you do, but they're so short and sweet that getting through them is no big deal and there are alternate paths to take to avoid water. The boss is dangerous underwater, but there are platforms to stand on, ladders to hang from, and the boss moves at a decent speed (when not boosting) and has movement patterns so you can avoid being in the depths with it by timing your jumps. After which, you lower the water level and don't have to worry about water for several missions. The next time you enter water for a long period of time, again, it's not THAT long and there is plenty of time and room to breathe. Not to mention, you get the Gravity Suit once you beat the boss. Then that's it. There is a perfect balance between water and land in this game. Sure, there are still issues with hindrance but they're short lived and aren't too painstaking to get through.
OOoo, had no idea you made a video like this. I've always actually liked water levels. I just have always viewed them like minigames or alt versions of the base gameplay. Then, in some games, like Link to The Past, the water is just like an extra layer to the gameplay! This is probably why Ocarina's Water Temple was so jarring, it was this totally new thing for a Zelda game, and it really shows. I am also one of those few who really liked certain touches in Sonic 1. The sequence of playing through the first five zones is one of my favorite gaming experiences, it really is like a digital roller coaster. In particular, Labyrinth Zone was a lot of fun for me! The water segments added so much tension, not just because of limited oxygen, but because of the different physics and how you have to adapt to them.
A great example of the bad stuff done great is in the very first Ratchet & Clank (2002) where you start off moving kind of slow in water, but after a certain point you get a hydropack which allows you to move with ease through water.
Man i love this channel and I love seeing how it has grown. I've been here since the beginning and i'll be here till the end l. Also, I love the new rayman game too. It's so fast passed and energetic, that I love that the devs gave you some relaxing time.
I always enjoyed Bioshocks water levels when they take you outside rapture just to go enter another place, you get to explore some of the outside world of rapture and it is just so gorgeous! And it does not overstay!
A great example of good water levels is in The End Is Nigh. In water you have full control, you can move up and down freely. You just then have to avoid the larger range of obstacles.
Here's some ways I can think of designing a good water level, considering your points... 1: Consider your character. Would they do well in water? Would they even go IN water? If not, considet the idea of a key item or suit that helps them both go and move freely underwater. 2: Going back to point 1, enhancing the mechanics won't be that hard. All you need is to expand on what the character would be capable of. For example, you could give a character with fire abilities the ability to project heat that evaporates the water around them, creating a brief moment of air before going back in. 3: This is moreso regarding theme and area. Ships usually aren't too maze-like, so we'll use that as an example later. Another is something like a sunken building, similar to those of Bioshock, but full of water. 4: Back to the ship... What do you see a lot of on sunken ships? Rust, algae, and most imporantly... Corals. Just my thoughts on how I'd make a decent water level.
I like this, sums water levels nicely. In my opinion, I hate the water levels from Zombies Ate My Neighbors a lot. They're not so bad until the fishmen come out, which move faster underwater than you do, and you can't use any weapons underwater. Also, because there's a delay getting in and out of water, jumping in or out with a victim onscreen (or near your field of view) could cause them to get killed pretty easily.
Why is this the only Nitro Analysis Video? :( It's an amazing (not essentially new, but absolutely interesting) format. P.S.: I feel like Rayman Origins/Legends deserved a stronger emphasis since there's not one mediocre or bad thing I could say about it but it's in there at least I guess.
MH3U has some of the worst fucking water "levels" I've ever seen. Taking MH's clunky combat and putting you underwater with minimal mobility is infinite amounts of irritating.
I'm with Your everyday psycho here. Water combat against Lagiacrus was one of the most fun and challenging I had in the whole game. For me, the sensation was as if the battle was taking part in the sky instead of underwater. This sensation is a great example of #1 and #2 of Nitro's list. The battle did took a while, but I'm pointing that fault to myself, as a bad MH player. I don't remember anything expressive about aesthetics, though. Mainly only Lagiacrus with it's Thunder scales, but I guess it's important to note I was playing on the Wii version, so... not great graphics. But I don't mind bad graphics at all if there is good gameplay. Anyways, yeah. Great water combat for me!
That bit about the chicken casserole I can definitely relate to. I think of Phendrana Drifts every time I eat rainbow Twizzlers for the same reason. Also, Tropical Freeze's water levels are really amazing too, similar to Rayman Legends'.
Good stuff man, I agree with the whole exaggeration part as a whole, but water levels really do need some sort of reward or balance to counter the slow movement.
There's also some frightening aspect in some games. Sharks in Banjo-Kaooie. Fishes that kill you in one hit in Mario 64. Really dangerous enemies in 2D Mario. I think that frightening aspect has a psychological effect on us as well.
With the realism thing, it's a bit of a mixed bag. While you do move slower under water, that's only if you're not swimming. This is where 2D Super Mario Bros gets it right-walking is slow, but swimming is not. Also, if a character is very dense, it's actually not realistic they would be slowed down. For example, Samus Aran in her power suit actually would be able to move quite swiftly through water. She couldn't swim, but she'd be so un-buoyant that she should just be able to run through it like it was air.
This was a really interesting analysis, you have very good and intelligent points. I want to make a game in the future, and it focuses a bit on water levels, so it's great to hear people's criticism on other games so I know what to do and what to avoid. Another example of a game that does the aesthetics in water levels REALLY well is Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze. Seriously, its level Amiss Abyss is one of the most beautiful water levels I've ever seen, with literally the most amazing music I've ever heard. I'm surprised you didn't mention it. Though the biggest problem was the limited air, it made it a bit harder to get immersed, but they were still amazing. By the way, y'know, I've watched several of your videos and I've really enjoyed them, so you got a new subscribe!
What about water in a horror type game? There's no example coming to my mind, but I think some of the "bad" things apply as "good" there. I mean: less control, slower, limited oxygen... it adds to the tension, doesn't it?
There was a game for 360 called 'Hydrophobia" that tried that, and it was a pile of garbage. I'm sure it's possible to do, but it's probably pretty hard, which is why you don't see it very often. Something like limited oxygen, slowing yourself down, those are only things that's limiting the player. Horror doesn't need to do that. Limiting something like visibility, and changing the sound design accordingly would be a way to make something underwater terrifying.
Yeah, you may be right. But I remember someone saying that taking away some of the power a player have can be used as a tool to generate uneasiness and tension, I can see me agreeing with that (fixing the camera in some places does that in a way). It shouldn't be something very long, but it could work.
Eh, not really. Taking power away from the player is kind of a cheap way to do it. (Like making the player defenseless, etc) Silent Hill doesn't do that, and imo it's the scariest game ever made. (One of them at least) Playing with visibility and camera is a little different, since it's not really limiting your actual ability to play and enjoy the game. Taking away something like speed or air imo is just frustrating. Having the inability to get away from a situation doesn't make me afraid of it, it makes me frustrated when a situation like that arises.
Silent Hill 2 takes away your whole inventory at the hotel, and it was one of the scariest parts to me in the game. I guess it depends on the player, I don't think I would have any problem if it's well done.
The only games I can think of which come close to an underwater horror asthetic are Metroid Fusion (that damn music still gets me every damn time) and Ecco The Dolphin which shows potential for how horror can be handled underwater but fucks up with loose controls. Most people fear water because they don't know what lays beneath and while you're underwater your vision is severely restricted to sound and loose movement.
A better example of a sonic water level is Hydrocity Zone. A common theory is that Hydrocity is a combination of hydro and velocity, which makes sense. Why? Because you actually move FAST. Hydrocity is praised in sonic 3 not only for its music but for its amazing design as a water level in a sonic game.
Funny thing about music and games... Whenever I play Chrono Trigger I can hear a guitar solo my father used to practice ALL the time, and whenever I hear the riff I recall Chrono Trigger.
I like the drawing of Kyle Hide that you have on the wall. I don't really see that many people that have played Hotel dusk or Last window. Too bad the company, Cing went bankrupt and I'm afraid we won't see any more detective games from them. And last window was their "last" game so I guess the title was fitting. Still some of the best darn games for the nintendo ds in my opinion. I've been watching your videos and you make some really good points. I'm subscribed now. Cheers.
Hotel Dusk is one of my favourite games. It's a shame we never got Last Window in America, though I did import it and play through it. Apparently the creator says he still wants to make a third chapter in the series someday, though he's currently unable to.
Water Temple in OoT gets way too much undeserved hate. It is legit one of the best water levels of all time and the puzzles are so clever. You barely even move slower underwater
It's been a while since I played a water level, but one thing I enjoy about them is when you are given an item or a power-up that functions well on land, and functions differently, but better under water. In Sonic Colors, for example, the Drill wisps giving you the ability to dive underwater and propel your way through it. Another example, in Team Fortress 2, giant bodies of water generally render the Pyro Class useless, as he usually depends on damage from spewing fire and leaving enemies burning when on land. Under water, he had been very vulnerable, unless he had a shotgun and a good melee weapon. However, that was all changed when the Neon Annihilator was introduced. An item that does a guaranteed three times its average damage to players who are soaked in water or other fluids on land, as well as players you chase into the water.
I just remembered that Jak and Daxter 1 had a really cool looking place that was underwater. Instead of you swimming underwater and hindering movement, they had the genius idea to make it so you were still on a surface but underwater. It was called the Lost Precursor City, and you take an elevator down into it, and you're sort of in a tube looking thing, and it has electricity running through it to keep the city alive and so you can move platforms. However, there is little pools of water that you must swim through but it has electricity going on and off in it. So just time your swims and you can make it safely across. Wow, that level actually used to make me uneasy, but now I'm beginning to like it a lot.
Donkey Kong: Tropical Freeze has some of the best water levels I've ever played. While DK is a smidge slower, he has multiple speeds, which are each needed. The music is incredible, the visuals feel like ancient technology, and it allows movement in patterns that the normal jumping mechanics don't allow!
man, the Great Bay Temple is so cool, especially with Zora Link's quick movement speed, would sure be a shame if something happened to it also Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze does underwater levels right because while it does have limited oxygen it doesnt slow down the gameplay but instead allows for directional movement, underwater attacking options, while keeping the series' tradition of having the best water music ever composed
Honestly, I'm fine with water levels. What I really don't like are levels filled with ICE PHYSICS! So many of my deaths are due to slipping off the edge... And have mercy with those tiny ice platforms.
MapleshadeDarkRay_YT Oh no, ice physics combined with enemy placement near the edge are by far the worst combo to ever encounter! Ever heard of Gururu? I had to sometimes stand on a narrow path way of ice, while fighting a baddy. So easy to fall off...
I think a good water level is Aquaria from the second Spyro game for PSX. 1) Spyro is still pretty quick and easy to control (compared with other swimming controls at least). 2) While, obviously, he can't spit fire underwater - he can still ram enemies with his horns and after killing a certain amount of enemies even gets a limited-time access to a superflame. He can swim anywhere in the level and like that reach points he couldn't without the water. 3) Aquaria isn't longer or shorter than other levels - I would even consider it one of the easier levels in this game, and you don't need to return to it (unlike other levels like Sunny Beach) because you can master every task during your first visit. 4) The level design might not be overly colorful, but I think it's still nice - and the music is just beautiful and easy to listen to. I like especially the part that is up above the main level, where the seahorse king is as well as Hunter. For bad levels I have to think of the bonus levels of Gex, really.. The controls underwater were just frustrating for me. XD
So I want to talk about DKC Water Levels well more so DKCTF. In the original Trilogy you have infinite air doesn't make sense but whatever the Water levels are Super Fun. However in DKCTF you have an Air meter but its not that bad because of your Swimming Controls and the Level Design is all about Speed and timing so usually you get the Levels done very Quickly and it so much fun, so despite the Limited Air Supply they made a way around it. There's also Kirby's Epic Yarn Water Levels that are a blast to play. That's about all the good Examples I can think of that you didn't say in this Video as for bad ones Devil May Cry 1 and 2 while it doesn't bother me too much it does break the Pace of the game and can kind of be annoying to Handle. DMC2 has a Super Annoying Boss Underwater too on the normal Difficulty it isn't that Bad but on Higher Difficulties the damn thing turns invisible meaning you can't Target it and Aiming underwater is Bullshit as hell. Idk why these parts are in these games but its annoying as hell.
Another thing that bad water levels have: limited oxygen. Even though it is realistic, having to resurface or find a bubble is a pain.
+GamingTheSystems I always loved how in the Donkey Kong games you could breath underwater. It made NO sense, but it made the gameplay so much better.
+NitroRad That's what I hated about Tropical Freeze. Water levels came back and were as aesthetically pleasing as ever, but they added an oxygen meter. It's so hard to get immersed in the aquatic ambiance (pun intended) when I'm too focused on not drowning.
Also, why is it that in the 3D Mario games, he drowns if he stays underwater for too long, but in the 2D Mario games, he's suddenly capable of staying underwater for as long as he wants?
+RyanX1231 i guess when your 2d your lungs are flat as shit so you dont need oxygen to begin with. Or if were going by paper mario logic, youre a piece of paper who doesnt have organs
CriticalHitRoll explain DK64
Actually, take back my statement about lungs being flat as shit, i only remembered the M&L RPG games and Paper Mario series
“Upcoming Wii U Game”
**Looks at date**
7.8/10 too much water
- IGN
Oh damn they must hate the legend of Starfy
Nice
New theory: IGN hates Hoenn.
@@dru4111 Ironicly no matter how much i loved gen 3... Hoeen is my all time least favorite Region
very well made video - NOICE!
Lewtoons
Hi
Lewtoons Hi Chad's comment from 3 years ago :D!
Or
MOIST
is the pun intended?
One problem I can think of in water levels is when, like in Ocarina, the main puzzle of the dungeon is figuring out how to change the water level. Especially when there's a little cut scene for whenever you do it. It just feels like a time-waster then.
As much as I disagreed with a LOT of shit in Egoraptor's sequelitis video, I did at least agree with the bit about how you have to WAIT for so much shit in OOT.
Oh shit, I completely didn't mean to reference that, but yeah that was one of the very few things I agreed with as well. I don't really his sequelitis videos that much, but that video was the one I agreed with the least
Yeah, he's really just biased towards Alttp, and by the middle he was literally just nitpicking and trying to find stupid reasons why OOT isn't as good.
His argument with the Z axis and combat and the treasure chests were all really really stupid.
Yeah, the whole combat and adventuring feel disconnected spiel was bullshit. Also I didn't get why he felt the need to bash Skyward Sword either. I personally am indifferent about that game, but there was no real reason for him to put it in the video that, from the description, had nothing to do with that specific game. Unless he was putting it in there just to "waste my time"
Pat Magroin the kinda did what about those moments in the shadow temple(I absolutely loathe that place) when you get to the skull knights or whatever can't remember the name, every time you needed to go somewhere for the entire first half you had to beet them and not the mention the ones on the ship, every time I died to bongo bongo and refilled my hearts those pricks would end up dealing at least a little bit of damage making harder for the boss to be defeated
Videos like this can come off as preachy when done wrong. This one didn't.
It's a good one.
Spyro 2 & 3's underwater sections deserve a mention as well. Swimming was simply so good in those games: fast-paced and easy to get the hang of.
When I played Darksiders, the underwater parts reminded me of Spyro. Fast paced and easy to control. Also there's no air supply time limit in Darksiders.
same with the Ratchet games, x to surface, square to descend, and R1 (i think, might be L1) to use the Hydro-Pack boosty thingy
I hope this is a joke. Spyro swimming was atrocious. Ratchet & Clank swimming was smooth as fuck though.
Totally. I remember not understanding the hate behind water levels because I grew up playing Spyro
Didn't they mess up the controls in water for the remaster?
The thing that really makes me not like water levels is the feeling of claustrophobia. Once you're in a water level, it's often hard to leave or sometimes you're stuck there permanently until you've completed it. Ice levels are kind of the same way for me. They always make me feel like I have to finish the level right now so I can get out.
I don't think that slow-paced water levels are by default bad game design, I think this is one of those gaming apsects that appeals to certain players but not to others.
A slow paced level isn't necessarely bad. For me moving slow gives a deeper touch of immersion in water levels, since the character's vivid underwater movement makes me feel like I really am there. Sometimes it's a bit too forced, like in OoT and Skies of Arcadia, but when balanced properly being slow paced can definetely help some players become more immersed. This of course doesn't work for some more fast-paced gamers, but if one prefers a calmer, slow-paced and longer approach to certain games, it can really help to immerse the player in the experience. You usually don't find water levels like these in quick, fast-paced games, they are always showing up on long adventures such as platformers or action adventures.
While I think that what you said is very valid for more fast-paced players like you, I feel like the main consensus for water level hate is focused on the controls. Not only do water levels completely change the controls in a game where all other levels have similar mechanics, but making good underwater controls can often be hard, which leads to a lot of frustration, especially because, as you said, this levels can take a bit longer.
P.S.: I personally always loved the aesthetic design of the Water Temple. The drawings on the walls, the statues, that room in the middle of nowhere with Dark Link...
Although I will admit that the temple's boss sucked royally. I really want to know who thought that an A̶m̶i̶i̶b̶o amoeba would make for a good boss
Associating a great game with something else great but seemingly unrelated. for me that would be Resident Evil 4 and Tom Jones's "It's Not Unusual." It was comical for me to be shooting up the infected people with the Chicago Typewriter while listening to such an upbeat song.
I really loved the water levels in Rayman Origins. At one point you go through a door and everything goes dark. The music changes to this beautiful haunting track. You have to navigate through deep sea creatures using tiny glowing fish.
It also helps that Rayman's swimming controls are superb.
Theming before mechanics... It really needs to die. This video is really informative!
Not necessarily. Point and clicks as well as adventure games benefit from them before mechanics. What should die is changing mechanics to fit the theme. You shouldn't suddenly be thrown into a different game if only one level is wetter than others.
Can't really name a favorite water level, but my god the water levels in Bubsy 3D are horrendous. The game is already terrible, but now you have to swim using tank controls, you have limited oxygen, and you now lack your jump as an attack and instead gain a dash move that will deplete your oxygen even faster. And the worst part are two enemy types that will home in on you if you get slightly close to them, they are nearly impossible to avoid and can easily hit you multiple times in a row.
Could you do more videos on game design? This was probably one of your best videos.
I can think of two other reasons. 1. You can't breath underwater, which means you have to rush to land which just isn't fun. Some games let you breath underwater though, i'm just talking about the ones where you can't, such as Conker's Bad Fur Day, Ty and the first half of Ratchet & Clank, allthough you get an O2 mask later in that game. 2. Floatiness. In some water levels, you float a lot, most notably to me is in Mario games. Floatiness makes it much harder to avoid enemies, catch collectibles and precision.
I was impressed there weren't any other videos analyzing the bad reputation water levels carry. Now I understand why: you covered pretty much every angle of it, giving good and bad examples, and very logic argumentation. What wasn't covered, it was discussed in the comments! (Maybe an update about good/bad and innovations examples, but that's about it, I guess). Great Work!!
Honestly, I feel that the reason that most water levels are bad is because they rarely feel like the developers don't give them the same amount of attention when designing their physics. By failing to polish how the character moves around in the level itself, they also fail to make them enjoyable, even without considering length or aesthetic. One great example of a series that gives water levels full on attention would be the Starfy series. The main focus of the Starfy series is buoyancy, how the main character traverses the water, and it does so exceedingly well. In fact, the sections outside the water, while still fun and fast-paced, tend to be less memorable than those that take place underwater. It's definitely an interesting way of dealing with the water level wart that plagues a good amount of platformers.
Dude you deserve more views
Those were 4 very good points but I have a smaller point that I can think of.
Point #(Personal): Water levels shouldn't make you dread the water.
For example in many water levels there is a drowning mechanic which makes sense as most characters can't breath underwater. However this can be done wrong in multiple ways.
The first one is included with your mention of hindering gameplay because some water levels with drowning mechanics require you to either constantly return to the surface or constantly seek out air bubbles (Ex. Sonic). This makes getting through the level several times longer as you are constantly back tracking to stay alive.
The second one comes into play when you are close to drowning. It's nice if a game warns you when you are near drowning but some games take it too far. Again take Sonic for an example as in sonic when you are close to drowning the music changes to this almost Jaws like music that gets faster and faster paced and it really makes you feel like you are about to die or something is about to get you. Do you think this was pleasant for most people? Of course not I for one DREADED letting myself get even close to drowning and I was always a little tense because that music was almost scary especially for a kid.
This ruins the water level because instead of enjoying the change of pace you are just praying it ends as soon as possible because the game has turned water into this scary evil thing that is trying to kill you. Again a drowning Mechanic isn't bad by default as it can add some extra challenge without hindering gameplay. But for many games a drowning mechanic means backtracking and unpleasant music when you are close to drowning.
I think the perfect Water level in a Sonic game was the Hydrocity Zone. Even though the drowning mechanic was there. The water bubble power-up null & voids it. The bubble also served as sort of a smash attack on land and actually made you bounce twice as high underwater, since naturally Sonic jumped twice as high underwater at the cost of slowing down some. The best thing about that zone is that it wasn't always underwater, there were some sections where Sonic would be on land above the levels of the water and some sections where Sonic could actually run across full sections of the level just from running across the water. It's kind of a level that actually rewards you for finding the fastest pathway through the level since it involved making minimal contact with the water anyway. And the fact the Sonic 3 had the longest levels of the first 3 Sonic games, both acts of the Hydocity Zone felt like any other Zone once you got good and it didn't feel like a maze.
Metazoxan Dexall Also, making the controls super slow and awkward underwater. I immediately though of Rayman 2's water levels. I love the game, but the water levels are everything you said. I dread every single water section because the controls are slow and clunky, and bumping into anything is almost an instant death. No matter how far your air meter goes up it always drains in 15 seconds or less, which leaves you panicking to find a Blue Lum. And the near drowning noise sounds like an army of rubber chickens being strangled, but somehow worse.
I really like your content man! Hope you make it big
The Water Temple is good...with a guide.There are sooooo many keys!Love OOT but MM is my favorite👌
I think Whale Bay in Rayman 2 is a pretty solid water level. The speed is a bit slow, but the way you actually swim is well thought out. Also, the auto-scroll sequence before Lungfishopolis in Psychonauts is really good too, but it's technically not a level where you swim, but you still move through water.
Alex Andnope You sure about Whale Bay? The controls are super clunky, bumping into anything is a death sentence and I found myself panicking so much throughout the level because of the air meter and that I was going to miss something.
Psychonauts is the best 3d platform ever made and it did everything right
Have you ever considered bringing this back and making it a series? I loved your take on this and I think it would add some nice variety to your usual type of (already incredibly high quality) videos.
"Makes my ears melt" is the most accurate description of Dire Dire Docks I've ever heard
Best Water level IMO: Spyro 2.
Best swimming mechanics in a 3D platform ever
I don't mind water levels. I just don't care for bad swimming controls and overdoing the limited oxygen thing.
This is one of your best. Have recently discovered the channel and really enjoyed this video in particular. You conveyed your points successfully and in a very well organised and fun to watch way.
I personally remember fearing the water in older games as most would instantly kill you. Limited oxygen would always scare me, being young I wasn't very good at the games and time pressure would be really hard to deal with. While playing Rayman 3, I remember feeling bad about the water until I jumped in and Rayman started using his hair as a propeller. The idea was so fun to me! Also, foreshadowing the boss in that scene was a stroke of genius. One of the first games I ever completed, if not THE first.
I don't actually mind the water levels that much, I'm actually more annoyed with sewer levels.
CliffFitter89 yes!!!! Completely agree
Crash bandicoot's sewer levels are great and you can't change my mind.
Meh, I hate ice/snow levels. They're my least favorite level type of all time
@@theace8502 Yeah, I wasn't a big fan either. Donkey Kong Country ice levels in particular. Too slippery. I don't like snow in general.
Spyro 2 had the best water levels. They were well navigable and you could move faster than on land.
I never really thought about what makes a water level bad, but You brought up some very good points that I agree with.
These videos have a very high content quality while the Chanel is still relatively small, keep up the good work
I gave you shit when you first started this channel, but now I can only regret it. Your videos have gotten way better, watching them doesn't feel boring or uninteresting, and that's the mark of a good TH-camr! I just want to point out one thing though: when you use static on your transitions, TH-cam goes a little crazy and fucks up the footage from seconds before it
well, if u ignore the fact the slow-mo under water its on purpose to create that frustration to make the player more rewarded u got a point, but do not confuse bad game design with diferents concepts of fun. About the color palette, dude... mario 64 water lv and water tample are almost the same. :/
I like the music in the water levels of NSMB, Sometimes it gets stuck in my head, It's nice and calming!
I'm surprised you didn't mention the Spyro games. Aquaria Towers and Seashell Shore make you feel as home in the water as a fish.
-Control change
-New, tedious mechanic
-Long and boring
-Confusing layout (Mainly applying to the Legend of Zelda series)
nitro rad never change. amazing channel.
Great job, Nitro. It seems like you improve with every video. And there's something I can't quite put my finger on that gives your work a distinct appeal. I hope you decide to analyze another aspect of game design.
Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze did the “maze underwater” thing very well, looking for keys and the way it controls is really great.
Rayman 2 had GREAT water gameplay. Moving just felt so natural
I am glad you brought up Rayman Legend's water levels. Not only does it look fuckin' beautiful, but plays so damn well, I remember playing it co-op with my friend and when we finished it, I told him "this is how you do a water level".
I love your Hotel Dusk poster at the end. :D Funny how you even talk about food, and spy music with Rayman Legends, sounds like Hotel Dusk moments. XD
I've never actually thought about it till now, but whenever I play good water levels like the ones in rayman legends, I tend to forget I'm playing a stereotypical water level and treat the level like the rest of them, great! So I think you know a water level is good if you actually don't notice you're playing something that is almost always seen as 'bad'
Also, great video :D it was nice having these facts brought to attention, especially since it's a topic not usually discussed
Why doesn't the water temple of Skyward Sword ever get any love? That is one of the best water levels I have ever played. Gorgeous, aesthetically different (the lotus theme was a brilliant idea), and it was a lot of fun to play through. It honestly feels designed to make up for the flaws of Ocarina' s temple. Heck, even the BOSS was awesome.
I'm going to bring up another series that handles water levels pretty well: Spyro.
More specifically, Spyro 2 and 3 on the PS1.
In these games, Spyro is able to move around just as freely and quickly as how he would on land. It's a plus not just because of how responsive Spyro is, but also because he is just as powerful as he would normally be on land. Sure, he can't breathe fire underwater, but his charge makes up for that, doubling as an attacking move and a speed boost. Many underwater levels in the game stand out pretty well thanks to its use of colour and theming. Examples include Sunny Beach and Aquarius Towers in Spyro 2, and Seashell Shore and Lost Fleet in Spyro 3.
An example of a game that has poor water level design, sadly, is Banjo-Kazooie.
In a game where collecting things is the main point and is required for progressing forward, it becomes monstrously infuriating to make your way through a level that has water sections in it. Controlling the duo underwater is tedious enough, but picking up underwater collectibles becomes a CHORE. I've lost track of the amount of times I've tried to swim towards a single collectible, only to run into the seafloor or the side of a wall by mistake; all the time desperately trying to steer Banjo and Kazooie in the right direction.
At least Banjo-Kazooie has some visually-appealing water levels. Clanker's Cavern, for instance.
You should do another of these about vechicle levels and combat in platformers. You mention those a lot in your Nitro Rad episodes.
elin111 I love vehicle levels. I would even say that in DKC games I like them more than straight platforming stages.
The vehicle levels in Crash Bandicoot were fun when you got the hang of them
nice kill la kill poster :D also really great video too, im surprised you dont get more attention, your points are stated clearly and the video is well edited and presented to make it entertaining, engaging and informative. your good at speaking too. i have a feeling you will soon have far more attention ;)
Since I've been studying Metroidvanias, let's talk about Metroid Prime 2 and Fusion's water levels!
In Prime 2, you have Torvus Bog. This swampy place with a lot of water and a flooded machine area. Being in the water hinders movement, of course, and enemies have enhanced movement. Some enemies even suck you towards them or charge at you whilst in water causing your dodge move to be less than effective. Combine this with poor visibility as well as natural terrain that even further hinders your movement and you will have a bad time. The level also takes a fuckton of time to get through before you finally find the Gravity Boost that lets you not only move freely, but also enhances your jump height underwater. The only problem is that there's a fucking boss you need to kill immediately after getting it. Sure, now you're on somewhat even terrain, but why? It just feels like padding at this point. This section of the game was already long enough with puzzles to solve and difficult enemies to kill. Just let me get to the next part! Not every item needs a boss battle with it. It just feels like a slog. At least there's a watery remix of Red Brinstar, that's pretty cool.
And now Fusion's. The dreaded (AQA) appears in screen and we already know what that means. "Ugh... Aquatic level." However, Sector 4 is one of my favorite sections of the game and it is very under-utilized. You come here a total of only two times. Once above water seeking a monster called Serris and the other underwater after you acquired the Gravity Suit, so really you just get to see awesome visuals and hear the most relaxing and yet ominous water level music in any game ever. On your first visit, you're told that the water's electrified, so touching it results in damage. So there's literally no need to enter water. There are a handful of sections that you do, but they're so short and sweet that getting through them is no big deal and there are alternate paths to take to avoid water. The boss is dangerous underwater, but there are platforms to stand on, ladders to hang from, and the boss moves at a decent speed (when not boosting) and has movement patterns so you can avoid being in the depths with it by timing your jumps. After which, you lower the water level and don't have to worry about water for several missions. The next time you enter water for a long period of time, again, it's not THAT long and there is plenty of time and room to breathe. Not to mention, you get the Gravity Suit once you beat the boss. Then that's it. There is a perfect balance between water and land in this game. Sure, there are still issues with hindrance but they're short lived and aren't too painstaking to get through.
OOoo, had no idea you made a video like this. I've always actually liked water levels. I just have always viewed them like minigames or alt versions of the base gameplay. Then, in some games, like Link to The Past, the water is just like an extra layer to the gameplay! This is probably why Ocarina's Water Temple was so jarring, it was this totally new thing for a Zelda game, and it really shows.
I am also one of those few who really liked certain touches in Sonic 1. The sequence of playing through the first five zones is one of my favorite gaming experiences, it really is like a digital roller coaster. In particular, Labyrinth Zone was a lot of fun for me! The water segments added so much tension, not just because of limited oxygen, but because of the different physics and how you have to adapt to them.
A great example of the bad stuff done great is in the very first Ratchet & Clank (2002) where you start off moving kind of slow in water, but after a certain point you get a hydropack which allows you to move with ease through water.
My favorite water levels comes from the Mega Man X series. The dash mechanic plus the higher jump the water gives you is just an awesome combination
At around the 4:30 mark. AQUARIUM PARK MUSIC YEAH!
I was so happy when I heard it too LOL
Ironically, the ONE Sonic level that handled water levels SOOO well.
@ misdrievous Demise
There’s also Hydrocity
9 years later this is valid
These videos are so good man, keep it up!
Man i love this channel and I love seeing how it has grown. I've been here since the beginning and i'll be here till the end l. Also, I love the new rayman game too. It's so fast passed and energetic, that I love that the devs gave you some relaxing time.
My favorite water level is Croctopus Chase from Donkey Kong Country. The setting and music are soothing, yet you're in constant danger. Very exciting.
I approve of this
This is the perfect compliment to the main series of videos
Tom Harvey There's a main series of videos? I think the channel is new enough, that there can still be anything and be "the norm"
I always enjoyed Bioshocks water levels when they take you outside rapture just to go enter another place, you get to explore some of the outside world of rapture and it is just so gorgeous! And it does not overstay!
"The Upcoming Wii U Title Splatoon"
Man That Sounds Weird To Hear In 2018
A great example of good water levels is in The End Is Nigh. In water you have full control, you can move up and down freely. You just then have to avoid the larger range of obstacles.
This was a really well put together video, subscribbled.
Im not sure if this counts as a water level, but my one of my favorite "water levels" in gaming was the Ancient Cistern in Skyward Sword
Here's some ways I can think of designing a good water level, considering your points...
1: Consider your character. Would they do well in water? Would they even go IN water? If not, considet the idea of a key item or suit that helps them both go and move freely underwater.
2: Going back to point 1, enhancing the mechanics won't be that hard. All you need is to expand on what the character would be capable of. For example, you could give a character with fire abilities the ability to project heat that evaporates the water around them, creating a brief moment of air before going back in.
3: This is moreso regarding theme and area. Ships usually aren't too maze-like, so we'll use that as an example later. Another is something like a sunken building, similar to those of Bioshock, but full of water.
4: Back to the ship... What do you see a lot of on sunken ships? Rust, algae, and most imporantly... Corals.
Just my thoughts on how I'd make a decent water level.
Another fantastic video Nitro i cant wait to see the next one.
I like this, sums water levels nicely.
In my opinion, I hate the water levels from Zombies Ate My Neighbors a lot. They're not so bad until the fishmen come out, which move faster underwater than you do, and you can't use any weapons underwater. Also, because there's a delay getting in and out of water, jumping in or out with a victim onscreen (or near your field of view) could cause them to get killed pretty easily.
Why is this the only Nitro Analysis Video? :(
It's an amazing (not essentially new, but absolutely interesting) format.
P.S.: I feel like Rayman Origins/Legends deserved a stronger emphasis since there's not one mediocre or bad thing I could say about it but it's in there at least I guess.
Nitro Rad your accent is adorable. Is it weird to say that? Oh, I really like your content, too!
MH3U has some of the worst fucking water "levels" I've ever seen.
Taking MH's clunky combat and putting you underwater with minimal mobility is infinite amounts of irritating.
The Tree's Apprentice MH3U?
***** Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate
ah. thanks.
Am I the only one that thinks MH3Us water combat is fun and challenging ?
I'm with Your everyday psycho here. Water combat against Lagiacrus was one of the most fun and challenging I had in the whole game. For me, the sensation was as if the battle was taking part in the sky instead of underwater. This sensation is a great example of #1 and #2 of Nitro's list. The battle did took a while, but I'm pointing that fault to myself, as a bad MH player. I don't remember anything expressive about aesthetics, though. Mainly only Lagiacrus with it's Thunder scales, but I guess it's important to note I was playing on the Wii version, so... not great graphics. But I don't mind bad graphics at all if there is good gameplay.
Anyways, yeah. Great water combat for me!
Great analysis. I'd like to see you make more of these kinds of analysis on game mechanics.
That bit about the chicken casserole I can definitely relate to. I think of Phendrana Drifts every time I eat rainbow Twizzlers for the same reason. Also, Tropical Freeze's water levels are really amazing too, similar to Rayman Legends'.
Current Capers, Amiss Abbyss, and irate eight are some of my favorite levels.
Good stuff man, I agree with the whole exaggeration part as a whole, but water levels really do need some sort of reward or balance to counter the slow movement.
There's also some frightening aspect in some games. Sharks in Banjo-Kaooie. Fishes that kill you in one hit in Mario 64. Really dangerous enemies in 2D Mario. I think that frightening aspect has a psychological effect on us as well.
With the realism thing, it's a bit of a mixed bag. While you do move slower under water, that's only if you're not swimming. This is where 2D Super Mario Bros gets it right-walking is slow, but swimming is not.
Also, if a character is very dense, it's actually not realistic they would be slowed down. For example, Samus Aran in her power suit actually would be able to move quite swiftly through water. She couldn't swim, but she'd be so un-buoyant that she should just be able to run through it like it was air.
12:41 Top 10 best anime backstories
This was a really interesting analysis, you have very good and intelligent points. I want to make a game in the future, and it focuses a bit on water levels, so it's great to hear people's criticism on other games so I know what to do and what to avoid.
Another example of a game that does the aesthetics in water levels REALLY well is Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze. Seriously, its level Amiss Abyss is one of the most beautiful water levels I've ever seen, with literally the most amazing music I've ever heard. I'm surprised you didn't mention it. Though the biggest problem was the limited air, it made it a bit harder to get immersed, but they were still amazing.
By the way, y'know, I've watched several of your videos and I've really enjoyed them, so you got a new subscribe!
Natok the Watok The good thing is that you can buy air baloons to not die quickly.
I like that you actually enjoyed the Great Bay Temple which shows A funny contrasts where Jontron despises everything about that temple
What about water in a horror type game? There's no example coming to my mind, but I think some of the "bad" things apply as "good" there. I mean: less control, slower, limited oxygen... it adds to the tension, doesn't it?
There was a game for 360 called 'Hydrophobia" that tried that, and it was a pile of garbage.
I'm sure it's possible to do, but it's probably pretty hard, which is why you don't see it very often.
Something like limited oxygen, slowing yourself down, those are only things that's limiting the player. Horror doesn't need to do that. Limiting something like visibility, and changing the sound design accordingly would be a way to make something underwater terrifying.
Yeah, you may be right. But I remember someone saying that taking away some of the power a player have can be used as a tool to generate uneasiness and tension, I can see me agreeing with that (fixing the camera in some places does that in a way).
It shouldn't be something very long, but it could work.
Eh, not really. Taking power away from the player is kind of a cheap way to do it. (Like making the player defenseless, etc) Silent Hill doesn't do that, and imo it's the scariest game ever made. (One of them at least)
Playing with visibility and camera is a little different, since it's not really limiting your actual ability to play and enjoy the game. Taking away something like speed or air imo is just frustrating.
Having the inability to get away from a situation doesn't make me afraid of it, it makes me frustrated when a situation like that arises.
Silent Hill 2 takes away your whole inventory at the hotel, and it was one of the scariest parts to me in the game.
I guess it depends on the player, I don't think I would have any problem if it's well done.
The only games I can think of which come close to an underwater horror asthetic are Metroid Fusion (that damn music still gets me every damn time) and Ecco The Dolphin which shows potential for how horror can be handled underwater but fucks up with loose controls. Most people fear water because they don't know what lays beneath and while you're underwater your vision is severely restricted to sound and loose movement.
A better example of a sonic water level is Hydrocity Zone. A common theory is that Hydrocity is a combination of hydro and velocity, which makes sense. Why? Because you actually move FAST. Hydrocity is praised in sonic 3 not only for its music but for its amazing design as a water level in a sonic game.
Funny thing about music and games... Whenever I play Chrono Trigger I can hear a guitar solo my father used to practice ALL the time, and whenever I hear the riff I recall Chrono Trigger.
I like the drawing of Kyle Hide that you have on the wall. I don't really see that many people that have played Hotel dusk or Last window. Too bad the company, Cing went bankrupt and I'm afraid we won't see any more detective games from them. And last window was their "last" game so I guess the title was fitting. Still some of the best darn games for the nintendo ds in my opinion. I've been watching your videos and you make some really good points. I'm subscribed now. Cheers.
Hotel Dusk is one of my favourite games. It's a shame we never got Last Window in America, though I did import it and play through it.
Apparently the creator says he still wants to make a third chapter in the series someday, though he's currently unable to.
Water Temple in OoT gets way too much undeserved hate. It is legit one of the best water levels of all time and the puzzles are so clever. You barely even move slower underwater
I'm playing OoT for the first time rn and I just did the water temple recently
I enjoyed it way more than the other adult link dungeons so far
It's been a while since I played a water level, but one thing I enjoy about them is when you are given an item or a power-up that functions well on land, and functions differently, but better under water.
In Sonic Colors, for example, the Drill wisps giving you the ability to dive underwater and propel your way through it.
Another example, in Team Fortress 2, giant bodies of water generally render the Pyro Class useless, as he usually depends on damage from spewing fire and leaving enemies burning when on land. Under water, he had been very vulnerable, unless he had a shotgun and a good melee weapon.
However, that was all changed when the Neon Annihilator was introduced. An item that does a guaranteed three times its average damage to players who are soaked in water or other fluids on land, as well as players you chase into the water.
I just remembered that Jak and Daxter 1 had a really cool looking place that was underwater. Instead of you swimming underwater and hindering movement, they had the genius idea to make it so you were still on a surface but underwater.
It was called the Lost Precursor City, and you take an elevator down into it, and you're sort of in a tube looking thing, and it has electricity running through it to keep the city alive and so you can move platforms.
However, there is little pools of water that you must swim through but it has electricity going on and off in it. So just time your swims and you can make it safely across.
Wow, that level actually used to make me uneasy, but now I'm beginning to like it a lot.
Donkey Kong: Tropical Freeze has some of the best water levels I've ever played. While DK is a smidge slower, he has multiple speeds, which are each needed. The music is incredible, the visuals feel like ancient technology, and it allows movement in patterns that the normal jumping mechanics don't allow!
Every Spongebob video game ever:"Am I joke to you?
man, the Great Bay Temple is so cool, especially with Zora Link's quick movement speed, would sure be a shame if something happened to it
also Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze does underwater levels right because while it does have limited oxygen it doesnt slow down the gameplay but instead allows for directional movement, underwater attacking options, while keeping the series' tradition of having the best water music ever composed
Maybe this is my stomach talking, but I kinda wanna know how to make that Chicken and Potato Casserole.
Honestly, I'm fine with water levels. What I really don't like are levels filled with ICE PHYSICS! So many of my deaths are due to slipping off the edge... And have mercy with those tiny ice platforms.
Jinsei Cast I find that the enemies are more annoying on ice, especially those spiky bouncing oranges in Rayman Origins.
MapleshadeDarkRay_YT
Oh no, ice physics combined with enemy placement near the edge are by far the worst combo to ever encounter! Ever heard of Gururu? I had to sometimes stand on a narrow path way of ice, while fighting a baddy. So easy to fall off...
Good example of associating chicken castroul(do i spelling it right?) to great music from Majora' Mask. I applaud you!
I like the underwater levels in Crash Bandicoot 3
I think a good water level is Aquaria from the second Spyro game for PSX.
1) Spyro is still pretty quick and easy to control (compared with other swimming controls at least).
2) While, obviously, he can't spit fire underwater - he can still ram enemies with his horns and after killing a certain amount of enemies even gets a limited-time access to a superflame. He can swim anywhere in the level and like that reach points he couldn't without the water.
3) Aquaria isn't longer or shorter than other levels - I would even consider it one of the easier levels in this game, and you don't need to return to it (unlike other levels like Sunny Beach) because you can master every task during your first visit.
4) The level design might not be overly colorful, but I think it's still nice - and the music is just beautiful and easy to listen to. I like especially the part that is up above the main level, where the seahorse king is as well as Hunter.
For bad levels I have to think of the bonus levels of Gex, really.. The controls underwater were just frustrating for me. XD
I'm still upset they changed Zora Link's ability to swim at high speeds freely in the 3DS version as well as limiting the usage of the ice arrows
So I want to talk about DKC Water Levels well more so DKCTF. In the original Trilogy you have infinite air doesn't make sense but whatever the Water levels are Super Fun. However in DKCTF you have an Air meter but its not that bad because of your Swimming Controls and the Level Design is all about Speed and timing so usually you get the Levels done very Quickly and it so much fun, so despite the Limited Air Supply they made a way around it. There's also Kirby's Epic Yarn Water Levels that are a blast to play. That's about all the good Examples I can think of that you didn't say in this Video as for bad ones Devil May Cry 1 and 2 while it doesn't bother me too much it does break the Pace of the game and can kind of be annoying to Handle. DMC2 has a Super Annoying Boss Underwater too on the normal Difficulty it isn't that Bad but on Higher Difficulties the damn thing turns invisible meaning you can't Target it and Aiming underwater is Bullshit as hell. Idk why these parts are in these games but its annoying as hell.
I also think Crash Bandicoot 3 is an example of good water levels.
You can buy air balloons too so you only lose a heart.
Also in tropical freeze there are air bubbles under water where you can refill your oxygen.
tropical freeze gets everything right except those fucking factory levels
12:54 *sees poster* Now I understand why you use the soundtrack of that game for some of your videos. Well done sir :)
Audio is important. I love you for that. ♥
What's your stance on breath meters? Also, have you considered doing a video like this about ice levels or windy levels?
You know a food and a water level are good when you for ever connect them together
The Water Temple is almost Perfect and one of the greatest Water Levels ever.
good stuff as always, dude. Stay Rad. Nitro Rad.
In Megaman Zero and ZX had water slow you down but dash is unaffected.