AA appeal to motivations fallacy
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
- "That is just your ego!" "You are only doing this to feel good !" "You secretly think like this !" "You don't want sobriety because of that!"
One really infuriating trait of AA members, is their ability to make assertions like they know exactly what you are thinking. AA loves to pigeonhole members into positions they have not taken.
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One of the greatest freedoms a person can ever know is when they do what they should do because they want to.
One of my greatest regrets in life is that I spent 35 years trying to stay sober with AA.
I never had a problem with God like AA assumed. Over time I came to believe that although I believed God could help me be sober the answer was No for whatever reason.
I just felt doomed and hopeless.
But I finally decided I didn't want to drink anymore. I like the effects of alcohol but I was no longer willing to suffer the horrific consequences that came with it so I just made the decision to not drink anymore and that was that.
I'm not a fool or an idiot. I know once I start with any amount that I'm unable to stop until I'm so violently sick that I end up in the hospital or psych ward and or jail.
So I just don't start. That's all. I just don't want to suffer anymore and made the decision not to suffer anymore. I'm doing what I should do because I want to and that is a great freedom.
Thanks for your videos. I was so brainwashed by AA at first I felt guilty watching your videos. Like it was heresy or something .
I'm a very rational person and saw so many errors and inconsistencies in AA but felt like I was in the wrong somehow.
I have very good compression and what I read in the Big Book and what I saw being practiced in AA was blatantly not the same.
Relationships for example. The AA big book clearly says AA doesn't want to get involved in it and has no opinions about relationships at all, none.
Yet in AA they generally say to wait until you have a year of sobriety to get into a relationship. Where did that come from?
And going to meetings as a way to stay sober. 90 meetings in 90 days and meeting makers make it.
The book they claim to follow doesn't say that at all.
If anything step takers make it. Nothing to do with meetings.
As you know I could go on and on but honestly I don't even care. AA is in my past.
I decided not to drink anymore so I don't and that's it.
I'm happy and free.
They make it up as they go along
This episode really resonates with me because I definitely observed similar behavior patterns in the twelve steps and this is also widespread in society. I have been told what I'm thinking and what I'm feeling my whole life. People often just assume and project their own motives onto me and it's sad, pathetic and makes me feel like humanity is utterly hopeless and not intelligent. Thank you for the podcast and saying what people trapped in a nuerotypical cult aren't allowed to think. You help many.
I appreciate that. It used to kill me how many sentences in AA began with, "You are only saying that because--" "You only did that because--" from the same people that claim they are humble, not judging other people, and not taking anyone else's inventory no less. I agree, I see this happening in society everywhere in politics and several other places and it is highly irritating when I watch people use projections as some way to claim a high road.
Recently I've been watching a lot of videos on Narcissism and Narcissistic Abuse and so much of it lines up with my experiences with AA. It actually helps so much of it make sense. Old-timers in the rooms seem to mostly be a bunch of undiagnosed Cluster B cases.
I remember sharing during one of the final meetings I ever went to. I was horrifically depressed and actively suicidal with 18 months 'clean' (dumb word). I was sobbing and trembling and after the meeting cult leader James with 30 years came up to me and smugly commanded me to 'stop sharing the mess instead of the message!' I bet he would have been so happy if my attempt had been successful so he could have had more time to rant at the meeting.
In NA there is a part of their reading that says 'we must remember that we are sick people.' I must admit that is one part of the brainwashing readings that I do in fact agree with.
Thanks for another great video Victor! By the way 4 years away from the cult and I'm the happiest I've ever been and not addicted. . . Funny how that works!
It is horrifying, how so many of these "spiritual" gurus, are absolutely inhumane bastards without even basic human feelings that gloat and thrive on the misery of everyone else. Utter parasites. I am so happy to hear that you are out of that mess and doing better!
"Stop sharing the mess, instead of the message"? Did you ask him how any of them ever complied with that dictum, in their sharing? This guy sounds as if he were merely jealous of you. Were you better spoken than him, or more educated? Better looking? Anything that could have spurred that jealousy? Or likely, he just felt you were drawing the others' attention away from him. Usually, those fucks are not capable of complex mental constructions, hence it being something base, as the cause. I've heard that generally, those NA people are way more fucked, than AA ones (if that is indeed conceivable). I once passed by a gaggle of NA types, gathered outside, after one of their meetings. I can definitely say, they warranted that assertion: They were fucked.
What good does it do to be cynical when a person is actually making progress? It’s almost like they want you to fail. God forbid you succeed without the indoctrination.
Wow, that's terrible and I'm sorry you had to go through that. What's scary to me is how believable that is based on my own experience. Basically, AA old-timers don't want to hear about the messiness of life. They're too immature for that. They want easy solutions to easy problems.
Indeed, there is not a single AA horror story that I have heard, that does not sound familiar to me or surprise me.
Nothing angers me like someone claiming they know my motives after a few minutes of sharing or conversation. I could understand someone saying " "you sound angry " but beyond that it becomes a fallacy called mind reading. My last day of treatment my counsellor said I may use again as it was my first treatment. I was so furious that she had so little faith in me. I have stayed cleand since--35 years--becuase I wanted to do anything to ensure I didn't endure that torture called treatment EVER AGAIN. Any time I was even close to relapse, I said "not tonight, b*tch".
The problem is that many in AA (especially with your 5th Step with a sponsor) would not only say, "you sound angry", they would tell you, "you're an angry person." That way they can fit you into the narrative of an "angry, selfish, self-centered alcoholic" and break you down to rebuild you up in the image of a "grateful" and "spiritual" person in "recovery". They use your vulnerability against you, which is the greatest betrayal of all.
This reminds me that the tactic used often when trying to change someone's mind is to approach them with an understanding that they have reasons to think what they do, and you do not know those reasons. You ask questions, you let them talk, and if they're going to change their mind on something then they're the one who's gonna do it, not you. It's been a lot more successful in my experience, by a lot, compared to brow beating someone until they agree just so you'll shut up and leave them alone.
And we can do it to ourselves, too. It's a lot easier than trying to motivate while wallowing in an eternal helpless pool of guilt, or at least it is for me.
Thanks for your words, as always! These videos really keep me going.
I'm a bit late to the commentariat because of work, and ongoing connection problems at home.
This is one of your finest. It used to annoy me being diagnosed by cult members. The whole "we're all the same round here and we know you better than you know yourself!" attitude is so wrong. Especially when you know their so-called opinions are just acquired prejudice and/or agreed upon lies that cult members rehash with each passing day or meeting.
There's so much about AA that could have been adjusted over time, which might have produced a reputable resource for healing from addiction. Instead, the cult maintained its downward trajectory simply so a few board members can collar six figure salaries for no show gigs. I could go on ...
Another beaut reel, mate. Keep 'em coming.
I like what you said about the "we're all the same round here and we know you better than you know yourself!" attitude. One of the coldest responses I ever got after a meeting was when I shared about how DIFFERENT we all were, how each of us had different life experiences, different personalities, different issues we were dealing with, different things that motivated and inspired us, etc. One of the most cultish aspects of AA is its "encouragement" to the point of insistence that we don't see ourselves as "terminally unique", and that we "compare in" to virtually every share (which of course, in practice, they don't).
@@zyxwut321 Yes exactly. The old "your personal program!" from the cult bible is another overlooked idea. As far as the "identification!" goes ... AA members take and make so many assumptions from this alone. If I recognise a singular type of behaviour in another drunk's story, then subsequently share about it or approach the drunk after the meeting to say as much, it's common for AA members to micromanage my identifying. Either as admiration or they simply think that everything they do or have done will automatically also be a huge part of "my story!"
"We're all equal!" But some are more 'equal than others.'
I am so very glad to have left AA. It is one of the best things I did over the last 25 years. I have a best mate who is still a member. He's grounded and sees much that is wrong with AA. But I'm sure he will never leave (which is his business and isn't an issue for myself). He does, nevertheless, believe much of the crap at AA (as I once did). I feel somewhat embarrassed for him as well because he gives every impression that his belief is built on a house of cards.
Anyway, thanks for your input. Very trenchant.
It’s interesting that a group of people behave in such a way, yet claim to “neither endorse nor oppose any causes, and wish to avoid controversy.”
I’ve even heard old timer gurus, or as you call them “big fat pile of shit sponsors,” say that the big book isn’t about stopping drinking, it’s about connecting with god/hp.
I can't remember where I read it (possibly Orange Papers), but supposedly a lot of what Wilson had tried to write was not considered that great, so another guy (James somebody, I seem to remember) was brought in, to rewrite it. Yet, Wilson was still able to claim sole copyright(s) to the 'Big Book,' though he wrote only some (if any) of it. He also 'sold' bogus shares in the company he'd formed, to publish the Big Book, but the company was unincorporated, thus making the shares worthless, and doubtlessly illegal, to try to sell. He also couldn't account for various AA funds, to the other members, and got in shit with them. There's likely a plethora of such financial shenanigans, which I haven't mentioned, where Wilson basically just put money which wasn't his, in his pocket (or spent it on his mistresses). I think this would make a great video topic for you to do Vic (If you've already covered this in a previous video, could you tell me which one it is?).
I have not covered this yet. I will look that up.
@@quackaholicsanonymous7210Cool, though I can remember when you talked about Wilson 'appropriating' AA funds.
Hank Parkhurst wrote the entire chapter: To the Employers. Also he helped in many area of the writing. It’s in the aa archives in NY. Hank ended up hating Bill because Bill stole Hanks shares of the book which was huge. In his rage at Bill he got and stayed drunk for the rest of his life. It also said without Hank there wouldn’t have been a big book. Too bad he helped bill and dogged him to write as much as he did. It’s the worst book as Vic’s exposé explains.
Thanks for that info shannon
I knew something about that Rick, but not all of it. There is literally nothing good about this cult, the book or any of it.
You are smartest man I can understand you are saving my life ty ,keep it up you are saving more loves than you realize ❤
I appreciate the compliment but I am actually not all that smart :)
How about the good old saying of old-timers, which sounds like "I'm responsible of the effort, not the outcome".They don't take resonsibilty for their own "saving all the one who suffers" action, and they put the blame on the person who actually suffers by their twisted saying "You are responsible for your own record", but hey do not forget that "you can not do it alone"
They simply engage in what the psychologists have decided to call projection. In a simple sense, it is an attempt to deny said negative traits in themselves, by unjustifiably attributing them, to others. This practice is claimed to be an immature defense mechanism, designed to assuage unadmitted (or as previously stated, denied) feelings of inadequacy, in themselves. In other words, they try to make others feel bad, to make themselves feel good. The best way to deal with them, I find, is to just bluntly call them out on it (preferably in the presence of others), and to just laugh, if they try to denigrate you, by calling you a dry drunk, etc. By not being seen getting mad at these types, you only look more mature, at the same time. They also prefer to do this in front witnesses, in hopes that they appear validated. But one can easily turn the tables on them. Indeed, they are but the equivalent of immature children, and so in my view, should treated accordingly.
Oh thank you so much this is the best talk yet. And i can fully identify with what your saying. I shared this to fb page. Im sure this is one of the reasons i kept picking up again while going there. I would have long benders im actually on a long bender right now its lasted a year so far. The difference this time is im sticking to one drug weed . And find if i do drink and thats rare im sticking to one. Its been a long time since i had one . I would hit a bottom with weed and drinking go back be happy 😊 i was off feel and think i dont want to touch it again and be met with this AA attitude and the rest of the shit they do like guilt trips maniputaion control abuse and pick up again. Im packed and ready for the off now taxi be here in an hour . My internet is closed now but its on my mobile think its useing data not wi fi so i can keep connected. Thank you this is now my favourite video 😊
Best of luck to you. There is nothing wrong with drugs other than alcohol provided they aren't a problem for you. Weed is fine. That being said, I'd recommend that you nix the idea of even ever having that once-in-a-blue-moon single drink; think of it this way, if you can have a once-in-a-blue moon single drink then you can just as easily do with no alcohol (actually easier to go total no alcohol). Also with alcohol, it's always the give-it-an-inch-take-mile sort of thing. And a single drink or even two or three or four drinks is not enough for a fun evening. After one drink, you can stop, but then you get an immediate mini-hangover...no thanks.
That's what worked for me...committing to zero alcohol (occasional alcohol-free beers have been okay, but don't seem to help or hurt--but caution is advised with alcohol-free beers) and allowing other drugs/medications (responsibly of course). I don't identify as "sober" but rather as a "teetotaler" (teetotaler just means alcohol-free without concern about other substances or "dry drunk").
I struggled with alcohol for over a decade and am now over two years alcohol-free. The one thing AA gets right is the bit about the first drink....don't take that first drink. If you do take that first drink then (if you truly have a drinking problem), you've just tricked yourself.
The last time I tricked myself into drinking was August 26th 2021. If I ever do drink again, it will be because I tricked myself into drinking--I think that same sentiment is true for all problem drinkers and alcoholics. Sure, some can cut back, but that's actually harder and way less reliable than just deciding never again.
Listen to Craig Beck (The Stop Drinking Expert on youtube), he's the guy that straightened me out regarding my drinking.
It has been 11 days I miss you you are a hero ❤
I didn't get a chance for an upload last Friday. Life things got in the way. :)
LOL The Big Book
If they say that you think too much (or some bullshit variation of that), it usually means that they're simply resentful of you, for your greater intelligence/sophistication. Though what's ironic, was that originally, AA was only meant for upper middle class WASP men, but now, is mostly the purview of the quasi-lumpenproletariat. If they intimate, that to be a whole, complete individual, one must constantly attend inanely repetitive gatherings (which are of themselves, merely a thinly veiled, corrupted form of Christian Evangelicalism), then that is quite the bizarre definition, indeed.
You are a hero of mine ty❤
conceding to my innermost self 😛
Hey, I'm just curious on your opinion about fighting with na members online, I like doing it, but it might not be the best form of therapy, lol, I'm curious what you'd have to say about this topic
Also advice on arguing with AA members in person, id love to hear about that too
I personally don't think there's anything wrong with it. I did quite a lot of that when I first left AA. I must have spent hours online arguing with lots of them. I actually think that's a healthy part of the deprogramming process. We have been forced to endure their abuse for so long, that I think it's almost a great thing that they can get to push back online and see that they're not the gods that they think they are. I don't do it as much these days because I get so damned angry dealing with them. However, I've had quite a lot of AA trolls show up on this channel and I'm always ready to argue with them 🙂👍
@@donalddreger6165 I have encountered some AA people in person since leaving, they usually try to make a big show out of ignoring me. I did a video about encountering AA people in real life but can't remember which one it was I will have to look it up
I seen that one, ya idk, it's like punching a brick wall, but I know that eventually it's all about getting distance from the bullshit, although putting them in their place is fun, but it's neverending, cause they always got a response to whatever, even tho I have a response to whatever but it goes on for days, in the end, you just can't change things and you just can't destroy it
@@donalddreger6165 Yep, it is more of a way of purging it out of your system before moving on. Though I would say that it could very well serve a purpose. Other people read online comments, and it might just click on someone.
I had zero idea where this channel was going when I started it. I knew I was pissed off and just had to rant :) Here we are now.
Pps on entering i was sexually abused by he had five years hes got over twenty yrs now. It was sexual abuse . .i sometimes spoke to new members both women and men. I was told i was flirting . I wasnt i just spoke to whoever spoke to me.
The guy who was living below us, in our duplex, got the boot. Apparently, he was an AA sponsor to multiple people, but was, in reality, a drug dealer.
This one guy knocked at his door, but he was out, so the owner's father ended up answering it (he was there, doing some repairs). The guy asked him for some drugs, thinking the landlord's father was the dealer. I was in the kitchen and overheard this, as we have a door which connects with that entrance. I don't know how I kept from bursting out laughing, when I heard the father say: "What is it you want?" The landlord came over after he heard and lost it.
Apparently my former sponsor watches you also. Wow!
Wow that is a surprise :)
Ps this is not to make you feel good im not into patronsing ...but well done on the weight thing your looking healthy and well . I have digestive problems and put a lot of weight on dureing pandemic i was mostly out of AA NA then went to smart at that time and some NA. I was on matazapine then . I think the stomacher problems were due to stress and not eating right and the pills i was on. Im now two stone lighter . I lost a lot of belly fat to . My stomach was distended. Whats helped me is pro biotics ...and what i now eat. Weetabix porridge with salt yes im a true scot lol so salt. Prune juice . Fruits veg. Its not easy to stay away from the cakes sweets but im doing it. Pro biotics helped me they supress apatite they also are good for skin hair nails . We all find out through trile and error what works for us what helps us pro biotics might not help everyone but they helped me .