Mr. Cornell, here! And THANK YOU SO MUCH, LUFFIE! This crazy continuity-plot-pretzel of a game REALLY needed diagrams to explain. As for Kaz's little line there, it could be that he was lying to Snake, as part of Venom's programming, OR he could be lying to himself, to try and justify his revenge-quest towards Cypher. Either way, his pants are bURNING UUUUUP! And now that I think about it, the V project kind of renders the patriots' experiment in MGS2 a little redundant, since it's largely the same thing.
His pants are burning up 😂😂😂 I love that!! And I’ve been thinking the same thing! That MGSV renders the experiment in MGS2 redundant. I’m really glad you liked the vid! It’s been fun to dive into so thank you for suggesting it!
@@luffiewebster Also, I really appreciate the visual aid of the chart. That is going to be VIATAL for TPP's analysis. If I could offer a bit of criticism, the "icons" of their cutscene faces being played & reversed...is a bit distracting.
Plothole after plothole, Ground Zeroes had filled in the blanks that followed to the Phantom Pain with more plotholes which set the events that led to what we played through the Metal Gear games
This video is pretty good. The important thing to note with GZ and TPP is that they are both simulations, however, they are not being used for the same purpose. One is to create a story, another is to heal a wound. The Patriot simulations that are shown as games in "Metal Gear Solid" are missions that happened in the "real" (in-universe) world, but are altered to benefit the soldier that is being subjected to it. These titular missions are used as mental growth exercises and never to teach tactical skills. VR missions seen in MGS1 are the type of simulations that are used to hone practical skill. GZ primes a soldier to become Big Boss, TPP is specifically made for Chico Libre after it is proven that GZ is successful at mentally "setting" a Big Boss. Chico's physical recovery takes years, as we are told in the opening moments of TPP. The doctor at the beginning of TPP is not talking to the medic, he is talking to Chico. The medic is in the bed to the left, he is Ishmael. Big Boss/naked Snake/Jack is not in TPP at all. There are 3 Big Bosses at least, and we literally never see the one we expected to. We also technically never played as him in GZ because, as has been established, it is a simulation. So, since Venom is Chico and TPP is made to help Chico grow past his trauma, why does it try to trick him into thinking he's the medic? Or was it us all along literally cutting him out of the story, the same way that he had to be cut out in order to become a convincing Big Boss stand-in? Personally, I think that the Paz memories are akin to b the GW virus in MGS2. The simulation did not account for Chico holding onto his love for Paz, and so when he begins to go through that entire scenario, he is breaking free of the simulation's final deathgrip on his identity. Once Chico realizes that Paz died there he finally places the cutscene back in a way that makes sense. Venom is finally reaching out to save Paz, the exact way Chico would have been. When he comes to, the medical bay has reverted back to its actual layout and he sees the Morpho Butterfly fly away. Venom has become an hombre nuevo, but he is finally /Chico/ again. I probably shouldn't start ranting about how this all spirals into the other games in the series so I'll cut it here lol.
I always wondered if kojima decided to make snake be voiced by Keifer Sutherland, instead of Hayter, as a way to make venom more responsive to the VR Training. Imagine if someone tried to convince you that a person that didn't even have your voice was you; it would probably be difficult. Just a theory lol
Sutherland voicing BB as evidence to GZ being a simulation is so interesting to me! I agree, it'd be way harder to convince someone that you're them if they don't have the same voice as you haha
Unfortunately I doubt the switch from David hayter is a clue. David hayter has said in interviews that kojima wanted to get rid of him in every game. He even said he was the only returning VA that had to re audition for every game.
@@the_maddcow I like to think kojima thought of the Ground Zeros and TPP storylines just to get rid of David Hayter and have someone else voice snake lol
Pythonselkan talked on this matter as well, explaining that it was because of the hipnagogia treatment, using as example the deja Vu mission, where we hear kaz an snake recreating instead of simple mgs1 audio files.
I think the side missions are pretty telling that GZ was a simulation. In reality, Big Boss was only there super quick to get his people n gtfo. Yet IN GZ, we have the opportunity to play a handful of other missions still set at Camp Omega, not including the wild Deja-Vu and Jamais-Vu missions. One thing that always cracked me up is the look on "Snake's" face every time he looks at Raiden. Lmao dude is mad spooked.
When i first played Ground Zeroes i had already played The Phantom Pain, and i couldnt help but feel like that was fake, how simplified Big Boss felt in comparison to Venom, metal gear aleways have gameplay co-related to its history, and complementing the simu theory u said in 6:00, i really think no one except Chico or Paz would really know what happened in GZ, BB and Kaz had a really bad accident, so i think everything we play is just readymade by Ocelot so we partake our way along Kaz(and that would explaing the "i cant believer we bought that cover" line) to build Outer Heaven, therefore sparing bb some time and resources, probably what happened in GZ wasnt even that bad, but just so we can get revenge on XOF It was crafted towards the GZ final aproach to the real events. That being said, huge love from Brazil you are a sweet to the eyes
Okay, so here is my take on this. Ground Zeroes actually happens. Huey sets up the nuclear inspection, BB leaves to get Chico and Paz. This is all real events that happened. BB landing in a coma for nearly 9 years. In the cassette tapes from the end game of TPP. Ocelot is in on BB's ploy to use the Medic as a body double to BB. Ocelot goes into great detail on how his psycotherapy works on the Medic. This is all real, this all happened. What we the player are experiencing is the recreation of the events from the lenses of hypnotherapy. We the player probably never see the full truth as to what really happened, granted most of the events we see through V are probably pretty close, with the exception of a few details like the line of Kaz claiming "we should haver never bought that cover story" Kaz was chosen to aid V while BB did his own thing. Ocelot in his own words uses "Doublethink"(cassette tapes at the end of TPP) to wipe his memory of V being a doppelganger until something unspecified is done to jog his memory of BB's true plan. We see the events of the helicopter crash 3 different ways. #1 We see in GZ Paz jumping from the heli exploding and them all getting t-boned from the other Heli in the sky. #2 we see the medic clock both bombs and the heli is struck by an RPG. and lastly #3 we see the truth after all mementos have been collected for Paz, and that is the Medic really did miss a bomb and she blew up causing the heli to crash. Dissociative Amnesia seems to be the leading cause for the misinformation. Thus with all that said, we experience all of GZ and TPP from the eyes of V which is the players perspective. V is an unreliable narrator as he has Dissociative Amnesia and Dissociative identity disorder. GZ absolutely happened, I believe we (the player) are experiencing the story unfold through the lens of a recreated memory of V. Which is why we never see V's face until the TRUTH ending, where we realize we are the Medic, and not Jack.
I lean more toward it being the bomb. My reason being that the whole hallucination with Paz in the medbay revolves around the medic “removing” the second bomb, which allows for Paz to “survive”-though I find the reasoning for her supposed survival to be kinda ridiculous. In the end it was probably a mix of both
SPOILERS FOR MGSV Canonically, it was the second bomb that caused the explosion. Venom misremembers the explosion and makes up the RPG scenario as a way to rewrite history and save Paz. Paz's diary covers this (and you can unlock her diary by saving all the wandering MSF soldiers and giving her all the photos you take off of them to Paz). It's super sad that Venom wanted to save Paz so bad that he rewrites history in his own mind and hallucinates seeing her on Motherbase 😭
My question might be a little bit irrelevant but i'm really curious, how many people thought that venom snake wasn't naked snake when either the trailer or the games themselves came out? When naked snake is in a coma, we see that he has no horn but when we "supposedly" play as him, his body is filled with sharapnels. If this twist was that easy for the fans then Kojima wouldn't have done it i guess but then it makes me think, did fans have alternate theories when it came to explaining how that might've worked? Even if Ground Zeros was a VR mission, how much of it is real? Surely all the results of what happened (coma of both snakes, death of Paz and Chico etc.) must've been pretty close to this supposed VR mission and if so, why change any details at all? I have no unique way to look at this since MGSV is the only game i played and at the time i was trying my best to not mess up who solid and big boss were :)
Maybe Kaz meant “I can’t believe we ever bought that cover story (when we first met her).” Although Peacewalker might be the game I’ve gone through the least, I’m not sure about the details
I wish that's what he meant 😭 SPOILERS FOR PEACE WALKER Kaz def knew from the beginning Paz was a Cipher and KGB spy. He tells BB at the very end of PW after the true ending.
Wasn't there an audio tape in MGSV that basically confirmed Kaz was working with Skull Face when they were torturing Paz? Pretty sure you can even hear the moment Kaz walks away from Paz and Skull Face steps up to sneak the bomb into her behind his back.
Thanks for subscribing! I'm glad my vid helped clear up the confusion around what Skull Face wanted! If you're interested, I have a full video breaking down Skull Face's speech in MGSV: th-cam.com/video/YmJSFQHYdi0/w-d-xo.html
@@luffiewebster XOF soldiers some how missed at a man standing still, paz was suicidal, chico did nothing and the XOF helicopter some how didnt kill the combat medic or bb
WELL it must have happend right but the version that we play through might be a (simulation or altered memory that VS is brain washed with) so shouldn't the question be more like "Is the GZ we play through what actually happend or an altered memory"
What if gz is based off an actual mission Big Boss did before the fall of mother base, so they made a simulation off that mission and only change minor or things
Switch from Hayter to Sutherland isn't plot related at all, and its getting stale how fans really try to find a plot-related justification for almost every downgrade or Kojima's bad influence on game series. Ishmael, the actual big boss is also voiced by Sutherland. All of the tapes are voiced by Sutherland, including the ones allegedly made by Big Boss. Its just another instance of Kojima trading a man, who dedicated himself to the series, but isn't famous enough, for a Hollywood star, not even the first one.
Oooh this is such a good question... Both are so dangerous. I'm really on the fence haha I want to pick BB because I'm biased, but neither are a good choice haha Who would you choose?
Thank you for the suggestion! I feel like we'd just have to play MGS3 in its entirety to see all the cold war references haha I'll def credit you if I make this video!
![[#2024MAMA] G-DRAGON - 무제(Untitled, 2014)+POWER+HOME SWEET HOME+뱅뱅뱅+FANTASTIC BABY | Mnet 241123 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ox29z5Nf1Uk/mqdefault.jpg)
Mr. Cornell, here! And THANK YOU SO MUCH, LUFFIE! This crazy continuity-plot-pretzel of a game REALLY needed diagrams to explain.
As for Kaz's little line there, it could be that he was lying to Snake, as part of Venom's programming, OR he could be lying to himself, to try and justify his revenge-quest towards Cypher. Either way, his pants are bURNING UUUUUP!
And now that I think about it, the V project kind of renders the patriots' experiment in MGS2 a little redundant, since it's largely the same thing.
His pants are burning up 😂😂😂 I love that!! And I’ve been thinking the same thing! That MGSV renders the experiment in MGS2 redundant.
I’m really glad you liked the vid! It’s been fun to dive into so thank you for suggesting it!
@@luffiewebster Also, I really appreciate the visual aid of the chart. That is going to be VIATAL for TPP's analysis. If I could offer a bit of criticism, the "icons" of their cutscene faces being played & reversed...is a bit distracting.
I thought the main plot was pretty straight forward, even without all the casette tapes.
Thank you for the feedback! I was worried the moving faces would be distracting; thank you for letting me know that they are!
Plothole after plothole, Ground Zeroes had filled in the blanks that followed to the Phantom Pain with more plotholes which set the events that led to what we played through the Metal Gear games
What do you think is the biggest plothole in MGSV?
How anyone understood what you were trying to say here is beyond me.
This video is pretty good.
The important thing to note with GZ and TPP is that they are both simulations, however, they are not being used for the same purpose. One is to create a story, another is to heal a wound.
The Patriot simulations that are shown as games in "Metal Gear Solid" are missions that happened in the "real" (in-universe) world, but are altered to benefit the soldier that is being subjected to it. These titular missions are used as mental growth exercises and never to teach tactical skills. VR missions seen in MGS1 are the type of simulations that are used to hone practical skill. GZ primes a soldier to become Big Boss, TPP is specifically made for Chico Libre after it is proven that GZ is successful at mentally "setting" a Big Boss.
Chico's physical recovery takes years, as we are told in the opening moments of TPP. The doctor at the beginning of TPP is not talking to the medic, he is talking to Chico. The medic is in the bed to the left, he is Ishmael. Big Boss/naked Snake/Jack is not in TPP at all.
There are 3 Big Bosses at least, and we literally never see the one we expected to. We also technically never played as him in GZ because, as has been established, it is a simulation.
So, since Venom is Chico and TPP is made to help Chico grow past his trauma, why does it try to trick him into thinking he's the medic? Or was it us all along literally cutting him out of the story, the same way that he had to be cut out in order to become a convincing Big Boss stand-in?
Personally, I think that the Paz memories are akin to b the GW virus in MGS2. The simulation did not account for Chico holding onto his love for Paz, and so when he begins to go through that entire scenario, he is breaking free of the simulation's final deathgrip on his identity. Once Chico realizes that Paz died there he finally places the cutscene back in a way that makes sense. Venom is finally reaching out to save Paz, the exact way Chico would have been. When he comes to, the medical bay has reverted back to its actual layout and he sees the Morpho Butterfly fly away. Venom has become an hombre nuevo, but he is finally /Chico/ again.
I probably shouldn't start ranting about how this all spirals into the other games in the series so I'll cut it here lol.
I love pre fidle Kaz
Me too!
I always wondered if kojima decided to make snake be voiced by Keifer Sutherland, instead of Hayter, as a way to make venom more responsive to the VR Training. Imagine if someone tried to convince you that a person that didn't even have your voice was you; it would probably be difficult. Just a theory lol
Sutherland voicing BB as evidence to GZ being a simulation is so interesting to me! I agree, it'd be way harder to convince someone that you're them if they don't have the same voice as you haha
Unfortunately I doubt the switch from David hayter is a clue. David hayter has said in interviews that kojima wanted to get rid of him in every game. He even said he was the only returning VA that had to re audition for every game.
@@the_maddcow I like to think kojima thought of the Ground Zeros and TPP storylines just to get rid of David Hayter and have someone else voice snake lol
It's so hard though because so many characters recognize venom by his voice,
100% Huey does and I think Kaz does too
Pythonselkan talked on this matter as well, explaining that it was because of the hipnagogia treatment, using as example the deja Vu mission, where we hear kaz an snake recreating instead of simple mgs1 audio files.
I think the side missions are pretty telling that GZ was a simulation. In reality, Big Boss was only there super quick to get his people n gtfo. Yet IN GZ, we have the opportunity to play a handful of other missions still set at Camp Omega, not including the wild Deja-Vu and Jamais-Vu missions.
One thing that always cracked me up is the look on "Snake's" face every time he looks at Raiden. Lmao dude is mad spooked.
When i first played Ground Zeroes i had already played The Phantom Pain, and i couldnt help but feel like that was fake, how simplified Big Boss felt in comparison to Venom, metal gear aleways have gameplay co-related to its history, and complementing the simu theory u said in 6:00, i really think no one except Chico or Paz would really know what happened in GZ, BB and Kaz had a really bad accident, so i think everything we play is just readymade by Ocelot so we partake our way along Kaz(and that would explaing the "i cant believer we bought that cover" line) to build Outer Heaven, therefore sparing bb some time and resources, probably what happened in GZ wasnt even that bad, but just so we can get revenge on XOF It was crafted towards the GZ final aproach to the real events.
That being said, huge love from Brazil you are a sweet to the eyes
This is one of the best Metal Gear analysis channels I’ve seen on TH-cam! You definitely deserve more subs!
Ahhh thank you so much!!! That’s such an honor and I’m so glad you’ve been enjoying my content!!
I'm getting old but that you because you made it make a lot more sense. Mgs is my favorite series but make it make sense lol
My channel is all about trying to make MGS make sense haha for me just as much for others 😂
you know it's a good video when it opens with "They played us like a damn fiddle!"
I couldn't help myself I had to 😂
Okay, so here is my take on this. Ground Zeroes actually happens. Huey sets up the nuclear inspection, BB leaves to get Chico and Paz. This is all real events that happened. BB landing in a coma for nearly 9 years. In the cassette tapes from the end game of TPP. Ocelot is in on BB's ploy to use the Medic as a body double to BB. Ocelot goes into great detail on how his psycotherapy works on the Medic. This is all real, this all happened.
What we the player are experiencing is the recreation of the events from the lenses of hypnotherapy. We the player probably never see the full truth as to what really happened, granted most of the events we see through V are probably pretty close, with the exception of a few details like the line of Kaz claiming "we should haver never bought that cover story" Kaz was chosen to aid V while BB did his own thing. Ocelot in his own words uses "Doublethink"(cassette tapes at the end of TPP) to wipe his memory of V being a doppelganger until something unspecified is done to jog his memory of BB's true plan.
We see the events of the helicopter crash 3 different ways. #1 We see in GZ Paz jumping from the heli exploding and them all getting t-boned from the other Heli in the sky. #2 we see the medic clock both bombs and the heli is struck by an RPG. and lastly #3 we see the truth after all mementos have been collected for Paz, and that is the Medic really did miss a bomb and she blew up causing the heli to crash. Dissociative Amnesia seems to be the leading cause for the misinformation.
Thus with all that said, we experience all of GZ and TPP from the eyes of V which is the players perspective. V is an unreliable narrator as he has Dissociative Amnesia and Dissociative identity disorder. GZ absolutely happened, I believe we (the player) are experiencing the story unfold through the lens of a recreated memory of V. Which is why we never see V's face until the TRUTH ending, where we realize we are the Medic, and not Jack.
This is what I believe too! I believe the GZ we played through is the hypnotherapy simulation Venom went through to train him to be BB
Do you think the second bomb that Paz had, caused the explosion? Or was it the RPG that hit the helicopter that caused the explosion?
I lean more toward it being the bomb. My reason being that the whole hallucination with Paz in the medbay revolves around the medic “removing” the second bomb, which allows for Paz to “survive”-though I find the reasoning for her supposed survival to be kinda ridiculous. In the end it was probably a mix of both
SPOILERS FOR MGSV
Canonically, it was the second bomb that caused the explosion. Venom misremembers the explosion and makes up the RPG scenario as a way to rewrite history and save Paz. Paz's diary covers this (and you can unlock her diary by saving all the wandering MSF soldiers and giving her all the photos you take off of them to Paz).
It's super sad that Venom wanted to save Paz so bad that he rewrites history in his own mind and hallucinates seeing her on Motherbase 😭
One Big hint is that the cassette tapes of gz we can hear skullface planting the bombs, and in the process removing some organs of paz
My question might be a little bit irrelevant but i'm really curious, how many people thought that venom snake wasn't naked snake when either the trailer or the games themselves came out? When naked snake is in a coma, we see that he has no horn but when we "supposedly" play as him, his body is filled with sharapnels. If this twist was that easy for the fans then Kojima wouldn't have done it i guess but then it makes me think, did fans have alternate theories when it came to explaining how that might've worked?
Even if Ground Zeros was a VR mission, how much of it is real? Surely all the results of what happened (coma of both snakes, death of Paz and Chico etc.) must've been pretty close to this supposed VR mission and if so, why change any details at all?
I have no unique way to look at this since MGSV is the only game i played and at the time i was trying my best to not mess up who solid and big boss were :)
Maybe Kaz meant “I can’t believe we ever bought that cover story (when we first met her).” Although Peacewalker might be the game I’ve gone through the least, I’m not sure about the details
I wish that's what he meant 😭
SPOILERS FOR PEACE WALKER
Kaz def knew from the beginning Paz was a Cipher and KGB spy. He tells BB at the very end of PW after the true ending.
Kaz Miller betrayed BB. Kaz should have left the moment Ocelot showed up.
Ahhh nooooo... Not my baby Kaz... (he probably should have been ditched haha but he still served a purpose for BB...)
Wasn't there an audio tape in MGSV that basically confirmed Kaz was working with Skull Face when they were torturing Paz?
Pretty sure you can even hear the moment Kaz walks away from Paz and Skull Face steps up to sneak the bomb into her behind his back.
@@sasaki999pro Yeah.. There's this one line in Chico Tape 7 where Kaz says "Give her the shot already", confirming he was working with Skull Face 😭
Thanks for clearing up on what Skull Face wanted. That was the only puzzle I could never figure out. I now subscribe. Hey, You’re Pretty Good.
Thanks for subscribing! I'm glad my vid helped clear up the confusion around what Skull Face wanted! If you're interested, I have a full video breaking down Skull Face's speech in MGSV:
th-cam.com/video/YmJSFQHYdi0/w-d-xo.html
who did liquid kill in mgs 4 when he activated the SOP system along with big mama?
New to this channel. Keep up the good work!
Thank you so much!! I'm so glad you're enjoying my content and welcome in!
Both GZ and TPP are simulations, the real important thing to know is who are the subjects. This is extremely important. Tschüss
I hadn't thought about TPP being a simulation!! It is in a way tho, isn't it? You're simulating what it is to be Big Boss...
@@luffiewebster and the best part is to get mads nikkelsen to sing lullaby songs
Great video
Thank you! I’m so glad you enjoyed it!!
How crazy is it that we all still can’t get enough talking about Metal Gear? 🙌
Right?? I love it! There's still so much to uncover about Metal Gear solid!
If paz jumped off the helicopter a little bit to late(if it would have been like 3 seconds to late) BB would have just been dead
Right?? It's wild to think how many things had to go just right for BB to survive that night
@@luffiewebster XOF soldiers some how missed at a man standing still, paz was suicidal, chico did nothing and the XOF helicopter some how didnt kill the combat medic or bb
WELL it must have happend right but the version that we play through might be a (simulation or altered memory that VS is brain washed with) so shouldn't the question be more like "Is the GZ we play through what actually happend or an altered memory"
Do you think the GZ we played through was the real GZ or was it a simulation?
@@luffiewebster i Think most of what we see is a real recount. But we are playing/remembering inside VS’s memory
What if gz is based off an actual mission Big Boss did before the fall of mother base, so they made a simulation off that mission and only change minor or things
I hadn't thought about that! That's an interesting idea...
I misread minor for mirror
Switch from Hayter to Sutherland isn't plot related at all, and its getting stale how fans really try to find a plot-related justification for almost every downgrade or Kojima's bad influence on game series. Ishmael, the actual big boss is also voiced by Sutherland. All of the tapes are voiced by Sutherland, including the ones allegedly made by Big Boss. Its just another instance of Kojima trading a man, who dedicated himself to the series, but isn't famous enough, for a Hollywood star, not even the first one.
goaaaaaaat 😭😭🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
Who would you have grow your pmc? Tyler Durden or BB
Oooh this is such a good question... Both are so dangerous. I'm really on the fence haha I want to pick BB because I'm biased, but neither are a good choice haha Who would you choose?
@@luffiewebster Tyler Durden he has more charisma and no torture to get into project mayhem. You just sit on his porch for a couple hours
Suggest a idea mgs video. Be great breakdown each games to look for ww2 or cold war references.
Thank you for the suggestion! I feel like we'd just have to play MGS3 in its entirety to see all the cold war references haha I'll def credit you if I make this video!
Ok
Im still so confused lol
Oh no! I'm so sorry to hear that! I tried to make my vid as clear as possible, but MGS is def a complicated series to understand