My x lover best friend and baby momma Jennifer Christine lamprecht, Isabelle Christina whomever she is I miss her terribly . I must also apologize to Natasha Pawliuk for breaking my other best friends heart ❤️ , are triangle has left me feeling dread as if both parties are currently in horrible condition and or being abused. Jennifer Christine lamprecht will always be my baby momma and a true love, Natasha Pawliuk will always be my first real love. Every day I feel like a spectre splitting into eternity from the book Four Zoas by William Blake, horrible agony as we split into eternity. My x Jennifer Christine lamprecht, was friends with a coyote from mexico and has a best friend James , she's rumored to be with a killer called Kyle. I worried her worst nightmare of dying alone could become a reality I said I'd never let that happen even if she hates my guts , it's my word.
@@edwardnashton553there are always a combination of choices and circumstances at play, it’s useful to remember that. I do find some truth in the concept that the corruption that comes with power is often a result of it revealing or somehow unlocking an inner nature that was already there, but there’s different kinds of ways that happens with people as well, and their individual choices and intentions often play a big part in characterizing those differences. All that aside, I think the simplest way to think of it this: that, as social creatures, the farther humankind ventures from being beasts, the closer we get to becoming monsters. The reality is that our choice to frame it in terms of power having an intrinsic quality in that it corrupts those who have or wield it is an oversight that distracts us from the underlying fact that power just is. It is a tool like any other humans have invented. It is we who are intrinsically, inherently corruptible. It is not impossible to possess power and wield it responsibly, but it may be true that, by our very nature, it is inevitable that not everyone will be able or willing to make the best choices with how they use their power. As thinking beings, we are capable of a broad range of behaviors in response to our environment. The more complex we get, the more varied and complex the behavior patterns that lead to success and survival will be, particularly in social contexts. Different thought processes and subsequent behaviors will inevitably crop up and combine in different ways over and over through time, and so long as there are incentives to choose to opt for short-sighted or self-serving behaviors for self-gratifying or short-term rewards, there will be times when the temptation works and leads to these undesirable outcomes. Most of us, if not all, are more or less equally capable of using both kinds of behavioral modality when it suits us, and often do use both, in varying degrees, in every day life. It’s not a bad thing or a flaw either, it’s just what it means to be human, and part of that is walking the line between serving oneself and the others around them, both of which are important to our well-being. Recognition of this fact is important so we don’t lose sight of where we are drawing this line between ourselves and the rest of world and so we are better able to actually determine where we set our expectations and perceptions of others.
Do keep in mind that low chaos is actually much harder than high chaos, you can only kill less than 20% of all available NPCs so if you actually end up FIGHTING people you basically get stuck in high chaos
Think again: in the game you can choose to be merciful, but corvo is against the whole country, good people for good reasons and bad people for bad people, and he can't let people live, cause he's still human at the end
@@ralfdsouza-ko7dyMan you an angry mofo. I sympathize. But that's not what it's about. He's against the corruption and the conspiracy, but most people don't know anything about that. One thing about it is this. The random guard on the street probably knows less about it than any given noble at the party.
@@Voidi-Void Mercy is a luxury. The player, knowing that he is in no danger, can afford to try until getting a perfect take. Corvo, in universe - not so much.
I think another thing that is worth mentioning is that the introduction to the rats in the sewers also has very important dialogue. "Rookies like you never saw the guy. He could fight 3 on 1 in the yard. The guy is a whirlwind." Even before being granted superhuman powers, Corvo was absolutely the best fighter in Dunwall, and probably even the entire empire. He was ALWAYS going to be unstoppable.
Of which fits perfectly into a plot to frame Corvo for the Empress' murder. "I don't want to fight this guy." "Naw, mate, I don't want to either." "Okay.... let's use the justice system? See if he really is a good enough guy to stay in prison long enough for us to get the heck out of Dunwall." "Hey! Corvo is getting executed tomorrow! We can stay at home and have brandy and cigars!" "Got a baaaad feeling about this..."
in the hound pits pub after the flooded district, theres two dudes talking outside about you. basically "i heard the guy is a monster, tearing through the city" "i heard they locked him in the cages for the hounds and only let him out at night with a blade the name of his target" the whole deal is "that man is fucking terrifying" and its a whole ass conversation lol i always listen to it whenever i get to that point
@@karkosgiehex Their original plan was to strike while he was away. Framing him when he showed up early was a panicked improvisation. Which goes to show that they did not want to fight him.
My x lover best friend and baby momma Jennifer Christine lamprecht, Isabelle Christina whomever she is I miss her terribly . I must also apologize to Natasha Pawliuk for breaking my other best friends heart ❤️ , are triangle has left me feeling dread as if both parties are currently in horrible condition and or being abused. Jennifer Christine lamprecht will always be my baby momma and a true love, Natasha Pawliuk will always be my first real love. Every day I feel like a spectre splitting into eternity from the book Four Zoas by William Blake, horrible agony as we split into eternity. My x Jennifer Christine lamprecht, was friends with a coyote from mexico and has a best friend James , she's rumored to be with a killer called Kyle. I worried her worst nightmare of dying alone could become a reality I said I'd never let that happen even if she hates my guts , it's my word.
Not sure :/ they at have tried to get rid of alot of us. Surprisingly unable to forgive myself for my thoughts of the last 3 years , I'm not sure if anyone will bring assistance. Praying for the best.
I am noone just a reminder of a time in the past which led to the present, which led to the past. My disabled friend Becca , severe schizophrenic , made the ohh you were hacked , didn't think much of it , till the last of my fall from grace . I do blame trauma like some , although trauma played a huge roll , something Ethier on or my father's or mothers also friends who are not friends like Tyler Blaney wether jealousy , envi or just down right indifference I aloud to change who I was, this although not instantly was my fall from grace. I'm in great fear currently there are bigger snakes then myself long since extinct that may return that lack empathy understanding and above all else forgiveness. I may be blamed forever for my fall , never to be forgiven or even if I was by others ,I myself will find it hard to forgive myself. Dancing with the shadow of myself and others leads to a dark besmear a constant juggling of a contradiction within the self. Recently this shadow has left , a storm drifting onward , peace reigns within myself a form of zen lulls over my mind like a blanket. Lack of subjective knowledge of events paired with high trauma lead to memory blockages and damaged recollection, to a lack of evidence regarding blame on the matter ,lacking objective truths. Verdict no one's to blame. I still will find it a mammoth task to forgive myself. We must learn to use discernment in all matters .
I think my favorite part of this game is the tone that The Outsider takes with you depending on whether you choose High or Low Chaos. He's neither good nor evil, sure. But he also *knows* that he gave you unrestricted power. He expects you to use that power selfishly, and hold it over the common man just like all the others have done. Daud, Delilah, Granny Rags, the Executioner. They all have Marks, and they've all chosen to exert their power over others in one way or another. So he sounds...more or less bored when you do the same in High Chaos. In True Chaos he sounds mocking, like he gave you all that power and you still failed. It's only in Low Chaos that he sounds...satisfied. By showing mercy and leaving the world in a better state, you truly surprised and fascinated him by being totally unlike all the others. And as a result he seems content with what you showed him.
So... How is the outsider or any other version of spooky powerful entity who gives power to humans(almost exclusively to the ones most likely to have morally complex and personally scarring misadventures) not evil? Like, bring it down to a more human level, let's say some creepo observes a poor person for years and when that person is at their absolute lowest point the creep approaches them, hands them a gun, a lockpick, and a list of people's schedules in a 50 mile radius, just 100% enticing and empowering someone to commit crimes and maybe even kill people, that's evil!
@@devin5201 He isn't evil because he gives powers to people he finds "interesting". Meaning he could give those powers to anyone, good, evil, or somewhere in between. As long as they manage to catch his attention. For example, while he might not have given Pierro powers, he does find him interesting enough to visit him in his dreams and provide inspiration for his inventions. He also doesn't force the marked to do anything. Unlike, for example, an evil Patron from D&D, he doesn't require any price in exchange. He only gives them the power, and then sits back to see what happens. What they do with it is completely on them. It's not the Outsider's fault that the previous people he's granted a Mark to have used the power for selfish gain.
@@Gabriel-oq8gsuhuh, and as stated these kinds of characters always give the powers to the people most likely to have a messed up quest, and the powers are never like the ability to heal people or magically make someone more empathic, it's almost always a very martially focused power, almost as if what they find "interesting" is inviting chaos and suffering into the world, hell by comparison the patrons that force the vessel to murder give the person the ability to say "I had no choice, if I don't do it the monster will punish me."
“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.” is the quote that always comes to mind when a game lets me decide between killing and sparing. Dishonored gives you so many tools to effectively kill everyone in your way, then tells you you're a bad guy for using them and it's hard to really figure what I think about that. On one hand, you're missing out on all the fun by not killing, but on the other, it makes doing "good" a real mechanical concession and that adds so much you don't see in any other games with a morality system. You actually have to go out of your way to end on low chaos and not just slit every throat in the game and have rats feast on the corpse for your amusement, it's fantastic. But it's not as fun as high chaos, and games are supposed to be fun. All this without even going into the actual morality of the chaos system, which is also extremely interesting to analyse, considering how much bad you can do just to avoid slitting throats. The DIshonored series is super interesting to dive into.
In my opinion, the game doesn't do enough to pressure the player into being evil. It's far too easy to get through most levels with non-lethal takedowns and the basic Blink ability. I feel like the game really needed to do more to make the player desperate, and make them believe that a certain amount of evil was "necessary".
I wouldn't say games are meant to be fun. They are meant to be entertaining, rewarding and/or engaging. "Fun" is just an easy way to achieve these things.
@@tbotalpha8133 I don't think that pressure needs to really exist, honestly. It simply gives you the tools to accomplish both low and high chaos, and leaves the rest up to you.
@@negative6442 I quite agree. If the game pushed players more towards either good or evil, the players would be able to blame the devs for pushing one style or the other. Now if you are playing the high-chaos side, you have nobody to blame but yourself.
Fun fact about Havelock at the end. On my second playthrough I tried something quite silly, knowing where the key is, I snuck behind him and grabbed the key, blinked to the door and let Emily out. The game ends right there with Havelock just standing right there somehow not hearing anything, completely unaware that I just saved Emily before he even knew I arrived on the island.
Anybody else notice that Timothy Brisby, cladvin a rat mask, is a blatant reference to the Secret of NIMH? Ahh, me childhood, 'tis well t' see ya again.
This game taught me that when no one can stop me... my preference is for nonlethal take downs. Even when I got to Nightcity, it was the same story. No one will ever know I was there, and no one can do anything to stop my actions, but they all get to wake up the next morning with the ringing headache of being swiftly knocked unconscious and a story to share with their friends.
Same with both, in dishonored I tried my best to be stealthily and fail many times, and in nightcity I preferred knockouts to kills and would only kill when I was forced.
I also play exclusively none lethal in MGS V including tanks ...until the game forces you to kill certain enemies like bosses and helis you can't capture them
I went out of my way to non-lethal most of 2077 as well. Unfortunately, despite using non lethal weapons pretty much exclusively, quite a few people ended up dead anyway because of various janky nonsense. Like if you do enough nonlethal to put someone down and then hit them with another nonlethal while they're falling, apparently that's killing now. Now that I'm looking at starting another play through, I'm hoping that's less of a thing. Or at least that they'll fall down faster.
I do the same in Metro on human levels. When no one can see me, when no one can _stop_ me... I only pass through, leaving everyone I can alive so that they may wake up hours later, only to find themselves with a splitting headache and without ammo. Edit: It also saves you ammo to use on purely mutant levels.
"You watched and listened when other men would have shouted in rage. You held back instead of striking. " My favorite quote of the game, made me realize the virtue of insight back in the day when I was a lot younger. And turned me wiser for it. Well, i like to think it did.
My favorite way to deal with Daud, as difficult as it is, is to blink in, snatch his key and his wallet, then blink away without getting spotted at all. Not taking revenge, not taking his life… but making sure he knows I _could_ have. Making him know that, for as long as he lives, he will have to watch over his shoulder, because he will never know when I’ll come back to make good on my silent promise. And maybe I will, someday, when Emily is older and threats to her safety need to be handled. But maybe I never will, and he’ll go to the grave with one eye open, always watching for a crow to stab him from behind. Playing the psychological game is far more fun for me than just killing them. After all, they can’t be terrified of the ghost that stalks the night if they’re dead. (Also I know this is all super melodramatic lemme have this it’s fun)
@@swordsmancs to be fair, daud knows if you spare him regardless of if he actually detects you, he KNOWS you're there and KNOWS that you will likely come for revenge, if you manage to leave he knows you took mercy on him (also not dueling him means he dosent give his cool ass speech)
It feels like the thing that's most important. Almost everything else, one _could_ chalk up to a moralistic writer using "karma" to produce consequences you couldn't have foreseen. But the way you influence how a child sees you and who they grow up to be, that's just real. Those little guys are sponges and they'll suck in anything you teach them, intentionally or not. If they're smart, they'll even learn the excuses you use to justify yourself. Parenting sounds scary.
@pedroscoponi4905 being a teacher's even worse, especially in elementary. some bad parent can easily start slandering you claiming all the bad things their child.learned are your fault so tiresome, dealing with parents
One of the things I find particularly interesting about doing a Low Chaos/Clean Hands run is that you can't just knock someone out and wash your hands of them. My first time playing, during Corvo's first 'Mission' dealing with Campbell, I knocked someone out and left him sprawled out in the alley between Granny Rag's house and bottle street, assuming there would be no issue because there was no one left conscious in the area to find him. The rats ate him. I had to re-do the level because a wandering swarm of rats came across the man I had knocked out, leaving him defenseless, and stripped the flesh from his bones. It was counted in my kill count, his death was on my hands. It was not enough merely to stay my blade, if I wanted my hands to remain truly clean I had to not only not kill anyone directly but I also needed to ensure their safety while they could not defend themselves. Every time I knocked someone out, I not only had to dedicate the extra time required of a sleeper hold, or the extra resources of a sleeper dart, but I had to take the time to find somewhere I could leave someone where they would be both hidden and safe, and then go to the effort of getting them there safely (Word to the wise, if you toss an unconscious guard down to far a distance to your 'safe' hiding spot for them the fall damage will kill them). Mercy was not a choice simply made in the moment when choosing between a blade or a chokehold, but something that had to be actively continued long after the lethal choice would have ended.
yeah this screwed my chance at a Clean Hands run when i was playing Dishonored 2 (which seems to be a much easier game); on one single mission, i shot an enemy with a sleep dart, they fell over the railing, and only after i overwrote my save did i find out the fall killed them. it was my first playthrough so i did not go through all the trouble of starting over to save one life, but it stung that my carelessness lost me an achievement i would otherwise have gotten had i just been a little more considerate
@@Albatross0913 tbf this was Royal Conservatory, from a height i could drop without taking damage; i did not think the fall would kill a witch outright
@@ivorymask2599 I had a no kill no alarm run but I got cocky and strangled an NPC that was being foreshadowed to reappear later. He turned to crows in my hands and I was like wth? Oh guess I can't kill him now... little did I notice or know but that was A DETECTION. RIP the run.
My x lover best friend and baby momma Jennifer Christine lamprecht, Isabelle Christina whomever she is I miss her terribly . I must also apologize to Natasha Pawliuk for breaking my other best friends heart ❤️ , are triangle has left me feeling dread as if both parties are currently in horrible condition and or being abused. Jennifer Christine lamprecht will always be my baby momma and a true love, Natasha Pawliuk will always be my first real love. Every day I feel like a spectre splitting into eternity from the book Four Zoas by William Blake, horrible agony as we split into eternity. My x Jennifer Christine lamprecht, was friends with a coyote from mexico and has a best friend James , she's rumored to be with a killer called Kyle. I worried her worst nightmare of dying alone could become a reality I said I'd never let that happen even if she hates my guts , it's my word.
Try committing and improvising. When you feel the urge to reload a previous save, instead stop and play out your current situation. It'll mix up how you play, certainly.
@@jimijenkins2548 the issue isn't that, it's being spotted in the first place, in fact there's an achievement for that specifically, not being seen for more than like 8 frames
@@toobig7150Yeah the issue resides in the save system. Ghost should be a challenge forcing you to master the game, not a save scumming incentive. A save system similar to Dark Souls' would be better. But then, it would displease players who want to breeze through the game making the genre even more niche.
Whenever I play dishonored, I can't help but go Clean Hand and Ghost at the same time. It just feels fitting that the man who was slandered, who's name was shouted and damned across an empire, would take down those same corrupt people without a word, or even a glimpse at who or what could do it. Plus I like the achievements. Keep up the good work! Loving your vids from what I've seen.
@@ThaneBishopI saw a post talking about the worst thing you can do to Daud is to take the key out from under him and leave. Not touching a hair on his head, but letting the best assassin in the world know that you held his life in your hands, and he wasn’t even aware of your presence.
Hard agree - I always do that too. I did one play through like a hurricane of knives, bullets and rats; I didn’t really enjoy it and felt kind of bad about it afterwards.
I've gone full villain angel of vengeance and moral high ground protagonist on all three games and DLC. I love it too and there's not enough games of this kind and quality around. It is a superb observation on how power could corrupt and absolute power is dangerous on anyone's hands no matter the motivation.
I also think he'd do it for Emily's sake. Imagine how she'd grow up and into her role, knowing what Corvo did, AND knowing that power is essentially at her beck and call. I didn't finish the video before commenting. Glad it was touched on at the end.
My love for Dishonored was always the fact that the endings weren't entirely you shaping the world, it was done by the one person who's opinion on Corvo actually mattered to him. We don't doom the world, we teach our daughter to do it instead. Then when you play Dishonored 2 as Emily, the playstyle you prefer makes sense because that's exactly what Corvo had taught Emily to do with such unchecked power.
When I first wrote my Dishonored 2 song, I did a lot of story analysis, but somehow, the idea that I would play both games the same way slipped by me. Been considering taking a second shot at it, and if I do, this is definitely something I'd like to mention.
I'm going at it a bit different. When I play Dishonored 2, I imagine it's a continuation of the Low Chaos ending. Emily saw how his father handled the situation with barely a drop of blood spilled, and it worked. So now she's doing the same. Corvo remembers how difficult it was to go through the entire plot with the added difficulty of keeping citizens safe. And now there's another, very similar mess to sort. So he resorts to the easy solution: Kill the problem. Besides, Karnaca is not his home. The threat is not domestic.
@@pelipoika88 But Karnaca is his birthplace and he lived there for quite some time. I don't think he would just disregard the lives of the people who live there.
On a site note, I can't really rememeber if it's in the notes around the party's level, but she's basically a blackwidow and the future the entity saw was a result of her killing that guy to never go back to dunwall. Take it with a grain of salt tho.
Yeah that's probably the most morally bad decision I've ever made for a "good" ending. Pretty sure even the Devs realised that it was a horrible idea so they semi-retconned it by having Boyle live out her life happily on the perv's estate after killing him and taking all his money
This video really spoke to me on a personal level, because back when I started playing dishonored on my 360 was when I was actually beginning to explore "higher" concepts like empathy and consequence as a child. My first few dozen runs of the game were complete bloodbaths, where I ran through collecting as many runes and money as I could scrounge to buy more elixirs, bullets and powers so I can kill more guards and beat more levels. I developed this rhythm where I discovered optimal paths and ways to minimise the resources I needed to use so I could have the most fun and find the most creative ways to blow up a small squad of guards. It never really occurred to me that the reason things were so dark or there were so many dead people were because of what I was making Corvo do as the player, I was having fun and didn't really have the empathy to understand or care. Only when I came back to the game years later seeking out some lost nostalgia of better days did I start noticing all the little things little me didn't, and it was only then did I start to appreciate low chaos and stealth runs, even got my first no kill ghost run. I'm happy to see I'm not the only one who noticed these things.
had a very similar experience, played it on my 360 when i was a kid, killed everything and everyone that stood in my way, never it occurred to me that my decisions would influence the ending, then i searched on youtube what other people thought about the ending just to see some reactions, then i saw a different ending to mine which confused me, after i found out there were multiple endings i then saw how much difference there was between low and high chaos, how many more people lived and how things seemed less dark, having Samuel in the end be nice was shocking because i thought it was obvious the game wanted me to finish the story, so i was confused where he critcised me and shot to alert the others overall once i finished the game like 3 times i really got a much more deeper of understanding, specifically in real life, how my actions can be different to what is normally expected, how my actions can influence for the best or worst, before that i was much more superficial boy, didn't think there was much to life other than being told what to do and complete the tasks given to me, but i gained a deeper and more comprehensive and thoughtful understanding of myself, my actions and my environment.
That comment prompts you to explore a question of virtue ethics, which is to say, should we be more concerned with the rightness of our actions or of our outcomes? I personally believe there's a complex kind of overlap between the two answers and that it's not simply one of the other, but also that we are humans and if we were to obsess over outcomes exclusively, we would find ourselves in such spiritual misalignment that we wouldn't be able to keep up the charade, however "optimized" for utility it may be.
@TwentySeventhLetter They both matter. Outcomes are far more easily measured. And people tend to judge themselves by their intentions and judge others by the outcomes. Such is human nature.
@ashtonpeterson4618 I'd say the opposite is actually true. People tend to judge others by their intentions, and themselves by the outcome. This could simply be because someone is being more critical of others or simply because they measure intention more highly, but I've noticed that when you are in closer proximity to someone for a longer time, when you see more of them, rather, you judge their intentions more than their outcome. Probably because you have more stake in them.
If doing something right is measured by its outcome, then what is essentially evil can be called right. Which is a hoax on a philosophical level. No matter how much mental gymnastics you do, you can't end up calling that which is evil, good, or that which is good, evil. Unless your perspective is skewed. If by telling the truth, someone innocent dies, does that mean that telling the truth is evil? Which begs a broader question, do I have to have full knowledge of all the consequences before I do something? Which begs an even broader question, is righteousness attainable on a human level, seeing as we are imperfect beings with finite understanding?
What I love about Dishonored's story is how it shows what having absolute power can do to a person. High Overseer Campbell is supposed to be the head of the state church, but he is, of course, a massive hypocrite as he takes full advantage of his station and breaks most of the tenets of the Order. The Pendleton twins are just spoiled rich brats who were always awful people, especially towards their younger brother, Treavor. Despite them being terrible people, the twins were the ones who inherited most of the family's wealth and are the ones calling the shots. Hiram Burrows believed that he knew what was best for Dunwall and the Empire and believed that if everyone just did as he said, the world would be better. He first saw the poor as a blight on the City, so he used his connections as Spy Master to smuggle rats from Pandyssia and started the plague. When that failed, he decided to have Empress Jasmine assassinated so he could take over as Lord Regent, and all he did was make things worse. The Loyalists become just as guilty as Hiram and his cronies. They realized that in their efforts to overthrow Hiram's illegitimate regime, they had replaced him, and were poised to take over the Empire for themselves. They could've been better than those they had Corvo take care of, but instead fell victim to their greed and lust for power. And just like Campbell, Morgan and Custis Pendleton, and Hiram Burrows, Martin, Treavor, and Haevlok pay the price for their corruption. You can chose to have Corvo become corrupted by power the same as everyone else, or you can chose to restrain yourself, and do what's only necessary to achieve the greater good of the city and the Empire.
@SwordWieldingDuck When you infiltrate Dunwall Tower, there's a safe in his bedroom. Inside is a card that, once played on the broadcast tower, plays his confession to the whole thing. He had the rats brought in from Pandyssia with the intention that the disease they carried would wipe out the poor and homeless. As intelligent as Hiram makes himself out to be, he never considered that the plague would run out of control.
@@SwordWieldingDuck You didn't know? Then how did you eliminate him? Lethally? The nonlethal option reveals his hand over the plague in order to kill the poor.
Also I'd like to add that Campbell doesn't break most tenets of the church. He breaks all of them, the seven strictures, daily, or at least tries to, as a sort of personal joke. The heart tells you that if you use it on him.
@@Get_It_Back_In_Blood I’m gonna be honest, I never agreed with that particular statement. I don’t think power corrupts, it just reveals what’s behind the mask.
I just wanted to say this has completely changed my life, and the entire way I play video games. I used to play an assassin stealth playthrough where I kill everyone, and now I have a hard time killing anyone a d go with the ghost playstyle. It's a great way of looking at Spider-Man's motto of "With great power comes great responsibility."
I remember when Dishonored 2 came out and I was so excited to do a Ghost+Clean Hands run. To be someone with all this power and to not been seen or even mentioned of gave me a huge sense of freedom, it really makes me appreciate the game as a whole.
Finally someone who gets it. Whenever I hear people whine about "being punished for having fun" I get a little frustrated about how bad you can miss the narrative
Well the problem with this whole narrative setup is that the tools for both outcomes are horribly unbalanced. They give you 20 lethal for every non lethal tool. It's fine to make it easier to take the lethal route but it's kind of annoying that they make it both harder and more monotonous to get the good ending. Spending tons of development budget making tools they don't want you to use is an annoying development choice. You're punished for having fun, not because the killing is too fun, but because nit killing is too boring. I think people would have a lot less qualms with the morality system if the non lethal tools were more fleshed out.
@@jonathanhay3212it’s like you didn’t even watch the video. you are literally the exact person the original comment was talking about. you’re completely missing the narrative the entire point is that YOU, THE PLAYER want to go the lethal route because YOU think it’s more fun. YOU find yourself in corvo’s shoes wanting to take the easy way out and kill whoever gets in YOUR way because YOU think putting in the time & effort to do the right thing isn’t worth the trouble if the player had the same options between lethal & nonlethal then there would be no choice to be made. which would go against the narrative touching on the nature of right & wrong and playing the role of an unstoppable supernatural force who can’t be held accountable for choosing wrong and you’re not punished for going high chaos the game literally adapts to give you more enemies to kill so you can have more fun. which, again, loops back into the storytelling
man, these videos are sO SLEPT ON. ima be PISSED if this channel doesn't take off. you're seriously really good at this, it's clear you have a knack for writing, narrating, and analysis. let's hope you get the recognition that imo you more than deserve.
Haha thanks man! The channel has been doing really well this year, and I really appreciate the support! I'm really looking forward to keeping this thing going.
I absolutely loved this game. My first run was Low Chaos, which I attribute to having played Thief "4" beforehand. Which was super fun. Of course, I immediately did a High Chaos run afterwards, and this game fucking nails the "supernatural assassin" thing. It's insane how fun it is to demolish everything in your path. Samuel had more of an impact on me that playthrough. Losing his respect genuinely felt bad.
Here from "The Stealth Archer Was Inevitable" video and heading into "What It Means To Be Human In Halo" because I adore how you present things and The Algorithm decided I should see them. A little rough, but the passion behind them is evident and that's enough to make me want to share my story. I don't remember much of my first playthrough in Dishonored when I was younger. Mostly as an incredibly difficult stealth game where nothing ever seemed to get any easier until I got Time Stop and in the end, everything went to hell in a handbasket. Those I trusted, those who saved me from execution, who I did all the dirty work for, were more than eager to discard me like a broken tool after I had served my purpose. In my absence, they turned on one another like the plague rats they were, too power hungry to wait even for my 'corpse' to cool before trying to cement their tyrannical rule. I was more than happy, despite Samuel's harsh words, to take each and every pound of flesh I felt they owed me. Martin died where he stood, calling out a challenge to the breached fortress wall. Pentleton was a spineless wretch to the end. But confronting Havlock? That was intoxicating. Watching him cower at the end of the walkway, understandably so when faced with the occult-infused monster I had become, seeing him use a child as a shield and laughing because I could simply make Time Itself bend it's great knee before plucking the pathetic life remaining from his body, then save the child he vainly thought would protect him from my wrath.. but due to an interaction bug, Emily, the one thing I was doing all this for, fell to her death. I had done everything asked of me, grown so powerful, for what? Nothing. I remember walking away, more than a little disgusted with the game because it was a downward spiral with no modicum of happy ending, not even an 'evil' ending with me claiming the bloody throne I had fought so hard for. "Who are you when you can't be stopped?" Years later, when I was a more thoughtful, more careful teenager who had very little in the way of entertainment, I thought.. Sure, why not boot that game up? I pay more attention to my surroundings, I'm faster with the controls, I'll struggle far less. Hell, why not try to do an achievement run while I'm at it? I've got nothing but time and this is the only game I'll have for a good while, might as well learn to love it. "Clean Hands - Kill Nobody" and "A Man of (Mostly) Flesh And Steel - Never buy powers (except Blink) and don't upgrade them either" stood out to me. Surely, that would be so impossibly hard at the same time. Throw it on Very Hard too, just to force me to avoid the easy route of combat that little more. But very quickly I learned this was actually far more doable than I first imagined. Actually, it was rather more fun since I had to be aware enough to save ANYONE from dying, not just keep my personal blade out of someone's neck. Be careful putting people down, since the wrong angle against a staircase could result in death because I simply tossed them without regard for their safety. Keep them off the streets, behind doors, even in dumpsters just so the rats couldn't find a hapless meal served on a cobblestone platter. I had to learn other ways around certain segments through clever parkour or really learn patrol routes to slip past in all the little foxholes I could find. I could do this or that because someone asked me to, but some of those just felt.. wrong. Like dirtying my hands in a different way and all it got me was another useless piece of painted whale bone, or another few coins to spend on nothing I would need. I had Blink, Sleep Darts and strong arms to manually make anyone I needed 'out of the way' take a well-deserved break. I cared about what I was doing this time. How "right" to give a woman to her stalker, simply so I didn't stop her heart from beating. Sentencing noble brothers to a short life of, admittedly, poetic justice in the prison of their own making. If having the High Overseer thrown into plagued streets as a Heretic whom absolutely nobody could help without consequences wouldn't result in his death all the same. About how my 'comrades' back at the pub viewed me this time, not as an unstoppable weapon with power beyond reckoning, but a man who was simply very, VERY, good at what he did. Who could make you disappear without killing a single soul or unsheathing his blade. I was prepared for Samuel to berate me again, something which hardened me the first time around ("Now get off my boat.") as he felt like the only one who truly stood by you through everything you did, partly because I had completely missed he gunshot alert everyone in the last level on High Chaos. Yet this time.. He was apologetic for the betrayal. Respectful enough to call me 'Sir' still. Praised me, even, for not becoming corrupt like the others. Wished me luck and truly, genuinely hoped I could save Emily to help the Empire get back on track to a brighter future. Maybe even that our paths would cross again. ("Good Luck, my friend.") Having very vivid memories of his admittedly rightful demonization of my first Corvo, I was touched. It really opened my eyes to how different things would be if you didn't see killing as a simple box to be checked and marveled at just how much was different this time around. The feeling of accomplishment I got when I saw "Clean Hands" and "A Man Of (Mostly) Flesh And Steel", successful after hours and hours of work, was some of the most satisfying I've ever gotten to this day. Not even because of the rarity or difficulty, but because I felt... better. Like this was truly the 'Right' and 'Correct' option, as if I had learned whatever lesson the game was trying to teach. Even now, if I have the barest inkling that Lethal versus Non-Lethal might make a difference to the story, you can bet I'll take Non-Lethal nearly every time. Cyberpunk 2077 and Prey(2017) were where this truly came to shine, but those are stories for another comment. Dishonored wasn't a perfect game by any means, but it was good enough to change me. For that, it'll always hold a special place in my heart.
Generally because death is permanent, but there's a chance that they'll be able to get out of that situation. I think I read somewhere that canonically Boyle ends up killing her captor and seizing his wealth.
The book bit reminds me of something from the witcher series, a vision of the future of a random character when he meets ciri, hes nobody, but he hopes to travel the seas. And the vision is of him discovering anew continent, naming a cove, finding islands. Living his dream, but ultimately dying overseas at the cove named after him from illness, far from his future wife and son. That passage stuck with me and I believe it always will
I really enjoyed the line about the game valuing life as much as you, the player, does, and will match you. That's a pretty succinct and insightful comment on Dishonored
An interesting insight I had when going for the Mostly Flesh and Steal achievement (not buying any upgrades to your Outsider powers, only using the default, single rank of Blink), is that it's actually a LOT easier to play the game than you think. Because here's the thing....most of the map layouts, are simply filled with loot to fuel your upgrades. But if you aren't actually using whale bone, or bone charms, there really isn't much in the way of motivation to go explore the maps. Usually the only reason you go off the beaten path, is because you picked up your lover's heart, pointed it around, and saw "....ooh! There are 2 whale bones that way, AND a bone charm!!" so you go off to encounter whatever challenge is over there. And run the risk of having to actually cause harm to the denizens of Dunwal. But....if you don't embrace the temptation of the Outsider, to "be interesting", to go and try and find resources to make you more powerful, you really have no need to even bother. You can actually navigate the maps towards your actual TARGET, incredibly easy, with just the single rank of Blink. And since you aren't actively engaging with 80% of the map, or it's denizens....you can easily get a low chaos, no death, no detection result for each map. Because why bother? You're here to take out your target....nothing else. The rest of the neighborhood never even needs to know you were near, because you weren't. So the temptation to become stronger, in itself, the drive to obtain the resources the game tempts you with, is another layer of moral/ethical checks on the player. Will you go mess with these people just to accumulate wealth and power? Do you really need it? I'm sure you WANT it...the temptation is there but....is it needed? And the answer is....no, it really isn't. The first playthrough of Dishonored, I got both the Ghost and Clean Hands achievement. When I did my second playthrough to get Mostly Flesh and Steel, I thought it was going to be a frustrating slog of save scumming, and endless frustration to complete. But no joke, it was the EASIEST run I had of the whole game. Missions were super short, super direct, super focused. The only way it was difficult, is if I strayed from my objective, to try and gain wealth and power.
What I really like about the high chaos playthrough is the letters you read heavily imply that part of the reason they poison Corvo is because of all the damage he caused. Even though the current regime was illegal and the revolution was just, all the people that Corvo killed parlament would hang them all as war criminals. So Essentially in high chaos Corvos poisoning is his own doing. You could even argue them turning on each other is too because hey they turned on one of their own why not the others?
I think that the moment I understood dishonored or at least the dishonored series was one of my favourite of all time was when I took an entire hour finding out by pure logic what the jindosh lock solution was instead of doing the entire level, I knew that I could do the level both killing everyone or knocking them out, or being spotted or sneaky, but the fact that I didn’t need to do any part of the level but use my brain in one room instead of the rest of the map made me enjoy the game all the more
I also believe these games mastered something that I absolutely adore in games. Anger. Hate. This game makes you hate people. It makes you angry. It gives you time to connect to something before tearing it away. The betrayal halfway through the game is a perfect example. The anger and hatred the game filled me with after that moment was extraordinary. There's a reason to do high chaos and that reason isn't because it's easier, but because your angry. You're pissed off at the world and believe no one connected to these people deserve to live. Your angry and you hate these people. And that is such a fun way to experience a story.
I recently replayed Dishonored and I was surprised at how well it held up, and your video was an excellent way to wrap up my Dishonored replay. Cheers mate!
@@ThaneBishop The way the graphical style evokes the idea of a painting, rather than attempting to mimic a photograph of the real world the way most games do, mean that it will never feel dated any more than an oil painting would, I do believe. Combined with the deep branching narrative you've explored so well in this video, I feel that it will always hold up.
I really appreciate you taking the gamble on a 30 minute video for a game you haven't played, and I'm even more thrilled that you enjoyed it. Thank you so much!
My x lover best friend and baby momma Jennifer Christine lamprecht, Isabelle Christina whomever she is I miss her terribly . I must also apologize to Natasha Pawliuk for breaking my other best friends heart ❤️ , are triangle has left me feeling dread as if both parties are currently in horrible condition and or being abused. Jennifer Christine lamprecht will always be my baby momma and a true love, Natasha Pawliuk will always be my first real love. Every day I feel like a spectre splitting into eternity from the book Four Zoas by William Blake, horrible agony as we split into eternity. My x Jennifer Christine lamprecht, was friends with a coyote from mexico and has a best friend James , she's rumored to be with a killer called Kyle. I worried her worst nightmare of dying alone could become a reality I said I'd never let that happen even if she hates my guts , it's my word.
I know I'm a few months late but I see you hearting new comments so here goes. Excellent video mate, perfectly reflects my own feelings on the game. It's one of the best games ever made in my opinion, and I replay it regularly and got all the achievements. I've seen a lot of people criticize the chaos system, saying that the game gives you all these fun powers but using them gives you the bad ending, and that this is bad design. I find this to be a very shallow understanding that entirely misses the point. That point being that yes, power is fun, and killing is easy, but showing restraint and care is the more difficult but ultimately the right option. You said that the game's world will mirror your own respect for life and that's a perfect way to put it. A few minor things I want to add that I feel are worth mentioning: one, in the Lady Boyle mission, you can as you said search for clues for which one is your target, and then either take her out or give her to her stalker. But there is another option that is much easier, as you don't need to hunt for clues: You can simply take out all 3 ladies. Rampaging through the party is not difficult, but it's even possible to wait for all 3 to be close to each other and kill them simultaneously with a time stop. Do with that information as you will. The second thing is Daud's DLC story. In my opinion, it ties the whole package together like a ribbon. Here we have a man who already cut a path of destruction and regrets his life, wants to do one good thing before his past catches up to him, and by your choices he can either redeem himself, or go out in a blaze of glory. Your chaos determines if Billie betrays you and if Corvo kills or spares you at the end. And if he kills you, the last thing you see as you're falling is the statue of the Empress.
At the risk of sounding pretentious, when people talk about the Chaos system "ruining the fun", I can't help but feel like those people just didn't connect with the idea that Dishonored is not a normal game; it's essentially a sort of litmus test. And it's okay to not enjoy that kind of game, but to say that the main function and identity of the game ruins the game is a bit past the point. It's a bit akin to saying that having to fight all the big monsters in Monster Hunter ruins Monster Hunter.
One character that always comes to mind when I think about the powers you hold over others and what you do with them is Terry Pratchett's "Granny Weatherwax" one of the most powerful witches to have ever lived. For good or evil reasons, when you have power and use it to control others, even if it is for their own good, you take away their choice. As the quote from one of the books she is in goes "You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it is just a cage." And from another book Granny: "And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That is what sin is." Pastor Oats: "It's a lot more complicated than that-" Granny: "No. It ain't. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts." Pastor Oats: "Oh, I'm sure there are worse crimes-" Granny: "But they starts with thinking about people as things..." A thing is something you control, manipulate, and alter for YOUR preference... The best way to deal with power when you have it is to let it not be used at all. It is often a recurring theme in the Discworld books.
Dishonored is my favorite game of all specifically for reasons like this! The diversity in play and story between runs, even in little background details means the world to me! My first run was as the wind took me, killing where I felt it was needed or deserved, but calm when I could, and I think I barely sneaked out the good ending. My second run was for the "mostly flesh and steel" achievement, and I cut down all obstacles in my path like a trained killer, powers or no. Finally my last run before I moved to other games was a clean hands/ghost run, where I even made a point to put those who I knocked unconscious into soft positions like beds or chairs. It was fascinating to really get into corvo's head in that run, since those aren't just goons, they're his wife and daughter's subjects, they're his co-workers as guards of the regency, and they're the men who killed his wife, who still deserve mercy.... Great video all around and I think I'm going to go play through the series again now!
@@ashtonpeterson4618I played through the whole game only to miss that if you put a sleeping guard in the dumpster next to the door in prison, the bomb kills them.
If nobody can stop then my goal is to be unstoppable, unseen and unknown. A ghost without equal. Invisible helping hand of luck. A charitable god in disguise. Not a rumour, but a whisper, not a secret, but a hazy dream. Sad, that there the game hasn't a reaction if you stay fully ghost by making, so that your wanted posters are blank. Who had seen my mask? Who can truly say they even had a chance to look under that hood? I mean, High Chaos, direct combat Dishonored is almost a different game and it is always my second playthrough, just to see how much suffering I can industrialize. Dishonored 2 was far better at this with my bloodfly farms. Ah, good times. Don't get it how some players went all Rembo on the Dunwall's inhabitants and were surprised to get a bad ending. It wasn't *bad* ending. It was a fair ending to what they have started in the game. But my canon ending is one of patience, obscurity and mercy. Within the limitations that the game gives you it only works best with Daud. I didn't know about a little cut scene after fighting Daud, where you can spare him. I never have fought him. He'd never seen Corvo. He lives because I will it, because Corvo allows it.
In my first playthrough, I tried my best to be sneaky and I was low-chaos through it all up to and including the Lord Regent mission. I genuinely thought it was gonna be over and I was a little disappointed that that was gonna be it. Then the Betrayal happened. I still love the line from the Outsider; "Strange how there's always a little more innocence left to lose." when you go under from the poison. I definitely felt pretty jaded and disillusioned with the chaos system. It felt pointless and I let my gameplay reflect that. I just killed everyone in sight, because who even cares anymore, right? And then Daud, of all people, had the nerve to ask for mercy and to remind me there was still A Choice with every action taken. It was just perfect. The Flooded District is the most brutal, hopeless level design and it was easy to give into that, and then there were the survivors. Some were crushed, some were still fighting for every inch of hope. As if to ask which one Corvo falls under. Thank you for this video. It was very entertaining and it actually hit a lot of points I had vaguely thought about but never really pinned down for myself, so this was superb. I'd be really curious to see what you make of the Daud DLC's and his role in DotO, too. I always thought his character growth between the two/three games was very intriguing as he never quite seemed to take to it, despite going most of the way.
Hi hi, I was sent this by a really good friend and it got both of us thinking hard. Mostly about how we would act if *we* were given such immense power that nobody can truly stop us. (for the record I have not played Dishonored 1, I couldn't have afforded it, and I only played through the first 60 minutes of Dishonored 2) At about the 10-15 minute mark (well I said it first at the 3 minute mark but re-affirmed it at the 10-15) I said that I would be horribly violent and I would shatter the world that dared to harm me so cruelly. That I would see it all burn and that I am just NOT a good person at all. I went through the entire video wondering if I would have done anything differently than a High Chaos Corvo and... the answer was "No, No I would not." But then you got to the ending of the game and reminded me that Corvo was doing this not only for Revenge, but for Emily too. And.. that reframes things drastically. I re-evaluated the entire game through the lens of "I need to Save Emily, these are the choices I have to make in the meantime... Can I look her in the eyes after having done *all* of that cruelty and wanton destruction, and tell her to not do what I did? To be *better* than me?" The answer to that was an emphatic "No, No I cannot do all that, I need to lead by example if I am to expect her to be better than me." Who am I when there is *nobody* who can stop me? I *think* I have my answer. It depends on if I am alone, or trying to do good for others. If I am alone, there is a very very strong chance I will burn everything down around me in a fit of blind rage and desire to lash out. If I am not alone, if I have loved ones who I care about, and they care about me in return, then I will work and strive to use my powers for the betterment of everybody that I am able to. Of course I am not able to find out for certain since I am nothing but baseline human with above average strength. Thanks for the video it really got me to think hard on my own personal morals. =^w^=
I had a different experience with dishonored 1. It gave me the power to right wrongs and choose to try to do the right thing. I could shatter the glasses instead of swapping them because I knew I would still be able to swoop in and deal with the consequences if things went wrong. I didn't need to be pragmatic or take the easier path for fear of failing. Nobody could stop me from forcibly trying to make things go better.
The best part about the outsider is his mark, in my opinion. It always looked to me like a bit of a compass rose, even with a tiny "N" for "North" on the top end (when you stand normally, with your hand down, it points up, but interestingly its just barely skewed, a subtle reflection of his motivations). In my mind, it was always a little joke to the Outsider that he gives you a "moral compass" but then lets you define what is "moral".
There's definitely some ties with the overseers and a commentary on organized religion. The Overseers want to define morality for the people, but the Outsider likes to strip people of societal definitions of morality, power, status, and even mortality. Then, he likes to see what an individual in various circumstances will do with this freedom to define for themselves what these things mean.
Dishonored is easily in my top 3 favorite gaming series of all time. The stealth gameplay is incredible, the story is intriguing, and the morality system is damn near perfect in my eyes. I can't help but go out of my way to always do a Ghost/Clean Hands run, not just for the extra challenge of it, but because for me personally, it just feels the best to me. I have endless tools and powers to tear the city apart, I'm unquestionably the apex predator even on an ontological level thanks to the Outsider. But I use the heart to hear people's stories. I stay out of sight to not cause unnecessary fear to those who don't deserve it. I go out of my way to aid those in need, even when it is out of my way. At the same time, I don't extend grace to those that ruined me and my family. I can forgive the guard that's doing their duty with the facts they have at the time, or the terrified citizen that only knows what is fed to them, but I will destroy those who framed me, used me and thought they could get away with it with no consequences. It's endlessly satisfying to complete the low chaos ending with no kills, because it proves that I am the better man in every possible criteria to those that wronged me.
I feel like Dishonored's ethical messages and themes probably would have come through a lot better for me if there were no nonlethal options. As it stands, what is the difference between stabbing someone and choking him out? What is the difference between shooting someone with a crossbow bolt and a sleep dart? Not much, besides the nonlethal options have less fun animations, and that small sacrifice on your part is supposed to mean you give a shit. Suppose instead that you only have lethal options, but are still encouraged to let your foes live. Now the player is in a situation where if they don't want to be a murderer, they have to avoid the enemy entirely, as violence will always lead to an undesirable outcome, no matter who wins. The player has to actively make the game harder in order to keep their hands clean, and even then may find themselves in a situation where they have to kill an innocent person in self defense. Dishonored is a fantastic game, don't get me wrong, but as far as the gameplay goes, the only functional difference between being a murderer and not is what crossbow ammo you click on, and I think that's kind of a missed opportunity. Great video btw. You have a lot of potential as a video essayist!
Honestly, I think you make some great points. I think Dishonored has my personal favorite use of a morality system in games, but it also came out, what, 11 years ago? And it shows. I love how much the system made me think about the rest of the game, but I also can't not think about how much further the system could be pushed if made today. Thank you so much for the support!
I would respectfully disagree wrt the idea of making nonlethal options require effort since it would contradict the thesis. Both lethal and nonlethal require similar amounts of effort, the difference is in the kind of person you are (or at least have chosen to be this playthrough) when you make the decision. The idea is that you have unchecked and uncheckable power. If you decide to be a bad guy, no good guys can stop you. If you decide to be a good guy, no bad guys can stop you. The world and circumstances don't factor into it. The world will in fact change to align with the choices you make. Not saying I wouldn't mod the game to make a good ending take more effort. I love games where "you work hard for a happy ending and are rewarded". It's just that for the sake of the thesis of "who are you when nobody can stop you" having both options require similar effort fit perfectly. Edit: tldr - if being good requires no effort than why wouldn't you? To bring in a meme. Returning or leaving a shopping cart requires no effort and incurs no consequence one way or the other so what do you do?
@@ScriptedviolinceThe situation presented in Dishonored is much more complex than returning a shopping cart back to its original spot. Yet, the morality system in the game fails to capture this complexity. The way I see it is that the game imposes on you how you should behave in a situation where you have been defamed to be considered "good". Being a good guy equals not killing a lot of people on your way to achieve your goals, the game says. But it directly contradicts the idea that you are given the power to decide what is the right thing to do in this particular circumstances as Corvo. The game already knows what's okay to do and what's not. Sure, you can leave a trail of bodies behind you but the game will punish you for that and complain about it every step of the way. So, you get to decide if robbing and killing others to further your goals of ending tyranny and saving your daughter is morally okay... but c'mon dude, we all know it's not okay ;> In a way, you get to be the judge and make the decisions only for the game to become the judge later on. And this judge follows only one rule: kill = bad not kill = good It's simplistic. Too simplistic for my taste
@@Teisho_ "So, you get to decide if robbing and killing others to further your goals of ending tyranny and saving your daughter is morally okay..." You don't. That's the point of the game. The idea isn't that all killing is always wrong - you can beat the game by killing only your main targets and still get the good ending. The core point of chaos system isn't to entertain some idea of le gray morality - it's to teach you that actions have consequences, that slaughtering countless people will inevitably lead to more suffering and decay. Slaughtering civilians because they stand in your way or due to your recklessness is morally wrong, even if your main goal is to overthrow tyranny and save your daughter. It is simplistic, because there is no real "complex" way to spin it - a man with a godlike powers should always take the path of restraint, because otherwise, people will die. And the less restraint he is showing, the more people will die. Some ridiculous moral relativism will only weaken the message and turn the game from a powerful story about power and responsibility into a post-modern edgefest.
@@malcolm4737but the systems complexity goes against the idea that actions have consequences by causing only certain actions to have consequences. If you steal some money from someone poor, their chance to die grow drastically, but I don't believe the game treats it as such. Where are the consequences here?
Dishonored is one of the only games I ever replayed at the hardest difficulty, one of the only games I came back to for the challenge of a perfect run. Mostly Flesh and Steel, where you use and buy no powers beyond blink (Because unlike Dishonored 2 you can't choose to deny the Outsider's gift and blink is actually necessary); Shadow, where you're never seen; Clean Hands, where you complete the game not just never taking a life but also preventing a number of other murders from taking place, because even deaths that aren't your fault still accumulate chaos; And of course, Ghost and Poetic Justice, a combination of the other two. It took me weeks of playing, and thousands of save scums (Seriously getting out of the flooded district without being seen is SUCH A NIGHTMARE).But I did it, and it's still one of my proudest achievements in gaming. This game is beautiful in its writing and execution
@@tyranmcgrathmnkklkl a person did a no powers, equipment, kills, detections, or knockouts run and 2 blinks are required outside the blink tutorial I believe. One to exit the hole in the flooded district and one at the start of return to the tower
As someome who has played Dishonored for years. This is by and far the most amazing and intropsective perspective I have ever seen someone put on the Chaos and morality system of these games. It makes them while hard to work with for gameplay, fantastically introspective for what happens to people who get unlimited power and treated wrong by societu
20:12 She actually escapes the stalker if you give her to him, and she has her own shop in Dishonored 2 in one of the first areas, right before the asylum transition
This was an amazing watch, brilliant video. I've played dishonoured and its sequel many times and seen many videos covering it but none have done something quite like this. Thank you.
17:40 Here it's important to note that it never was moral vs immoral, it's chaos vs order. Branding him does not disrupt the operation of society as much as killing him.
Wow. Just incredible work. Dishonored was my first ever “favorite” game when I was too young to even understand media at the surface level, let alone so deeply. Thank you for giving me inspiration in the quality with which I should approach my analyses and for the joy, of getting to live through Dunwall again through your work.
i love this idea. "what'd you do when nothing can stop you, but yourself?" i need more media like this, for i am now addicted to an idea i didn't even know excised until half an hour ago
Wait, I understood !!! Outsider is an ingame avatar of us, the player, we can make any character powerful with snap of a finger and we don't care if they're good or bad, the only thing a character played by the player should be... is entertaining.
An important part of proving corvo innocent (for me) it's not being the person he was rumored to be. Not a killer, not a violent shadow, not the thing that goes bump in the night. If I bring corvo his life and freedom and reveal the truth, but I'm doing so make him the man the rumors said, what have I really accomplished? Surely, not redemption.
Alright, so, I’ve only watched this video from you so far, but, firstly, what I have seen is excellent. This is great content, and the fact that it only has close to 30,000 views disappoints me greatly. Still, much better that it has 30,000 than 300, but regardless, I really hope for its, along with this channels, success and growth, as it is greatly deserved. Having said that, I thought I’d go ahead and dump out my thoughts on this subject. Not particularly because I feel they’re notable, but because this brought me back to thinking about things quite a bit. A small side note, I think people underestimate just how wide reaching the Chaos system is in Dishonored 1. In Dishonored 2, it is essentially just a kill meter. But in 1, stuff like how many times you’ve been seen affects it. You can reach high chaos by being constantly caught by guards. Is it effectively impossible to do so? Absolutely. But it’s a lot more than just a kill under 20% and you’re a good guy. Let’s start with my playthroughs of this game. This game was easily my favorite game for a few years, and I’ve done hundreds. And yet, in the vast majority, I play as what I believe to be a generally moral ghost. More specifically, I tend to avoid all guards I can, with a few exceptions. Those who harass people I generally find innocent (Griff, Elsa, Lady with the art dealers key. Elsa in particular I believe to be innocent, since we never actually see proof, and I’m generally distrusting of religious orders accusing people of being witches.) get knocked out. The only people I really kill are my targets. I almost always swap the wine, I simply stab the Pendleton’s, I sedate and then kill Lady Boyle, and I kill the Lord Regent, followed by releasing his audio log. I generally avoid Daud, as I consider the DLC canon, and when I play as him, I try to atone. And finally, the loyalists are all killed. In truth, I generally choose to do so for the simple fact that I don’t believe in fates worse than death. Between the options we’re given, I think it’s best to just end my targets while they’re living the high life, rather than let them fall. In particular, I don’t think Lady Boyle even deserves the pain of a conscious death. Sure, she’s a noblewoman who is ignoring the plight of the people around her so she can enjoy herself, but, quite frankly, I think it’s hypocritical to act as if were any better. Our world has plenty of people suffering, and yet the vast vast majority of people who play video games aren’t out there helping. Plenty of us have the methods to, we have the ability to help. And yet we don’t, and why is that? Because we like where we live, we like the life we live, we don’t want to give up our luxuries for the sake of people we don’t know, and likely never will know. And so sure, she ties to those who fucked us over, but quite frankly, I don’t think it’s enough of one, nor do I think her actions are so totally unreasonable that she deserves either a violent death or life in horrific conditions. But that’s the thing about dishonored. It poses a question on the surface level, but oddly enough, I think it actually misses its mark with me. More specifically, I don’t think I’m the right kind of person to be asked the question, since it isn’t really one for me. There’s a reason why despite my dozens of playthroughs of New Vegas, I have joined Caesar’s Legion 3 times, and each only for achievements. Simply enough, in a world where being an asshole takes just as much, if not more effort than being good, why not just be good? More than that, even if it takes more effort, good should always be strived for. Maybe I’m just basic. Hell, my favorite god damn superhero is Superman, for the express point of his absolute sense of righteousness, his unwillingness to do bad (Don’t even get me started on Injustice, it’s as bad of a misread of his character as the whole ‘Batman doesn’t kill because if he did he wouldn’t stop.’ Which, tangent, but that’s not fucking it, he doesn’t kill because he has belief in the absolute sanctity of human life. That’s it. It’s not that he’s holding himself back, or anything like that. Sure, he might have doubts, but if he ever went through with it, I don’t believe for a single moment that the real Batman would just fucking go crazy.), that all is what makes Superman so enjoyable in my opinion. That he’s the Paragon of good. He will always do what’s right, even with godlike power. So, when Dishonored poses a question in the vein of ‘Does Absolute Power Corrupt Absolutely’, I have to say that it doesn’t. Those who let power corrupt them aren’t actually being corrupted. They’re being held back by their worry of punishment, nothing else. They aren’t, at least in my opinion, actually moral, but rather, simply feigning it for any number of reasons. But, I think that’s one of the great things about Dishonored. That on the surface level, it seems to point towards the idea that power corrupts. It’s the major theme of all of its antagonists. And yet, you can prove that saying wrong. You can be the change you want in the world, the person with power who doesn’t let the world get worse. Who doesn’t just see everyone else doing bad things, and so thinks it’s okay. Dishonored lets you have all that power, and then rewards you for the good you do, if not mechanically, then emotionally. Civilization was built on empathy, on helping your fellow man, built on us working together, and so pretty clearly, it fucking works. We’re a planet spanning civilization that, if not completely uniform, still have some amount of connection. The good you do makes an impact, just as much as the bad. And I think the greatest take away I’ve had from my time with Dishonored, is that it’s worth the effort to be good.
Guy Gavriel Kay is an amazing writer and I was thrilled to hear you mention him. I love he sometimes zooms out from the main narrative to either follow a minor character or to tell us how, later, historians and philosophers will view and debate this event. He puts the lie to "show don't tell" by telling wonderful stories wonderfully.
I found this interesting, and made me feel a bit better about myself. My first blind playthrough I did my best to Ghost missions without killing... except the primary targets. In my mind, no only was my *job* to kill them, but I could find little to no redeeming qualities for them and the targets continued existence was a threat to everything the late Empress stood for. I rarely if ever found the kind of proof to make a judgement like that for the rank-and-file, and besides, the others in the loyalists were the Judge and Jury, I was just the Executioner, even if I was still exercising my best judgement against the targets.
@@Verbose_Mode Like right after I made my reply to you the video said as much too lol. I never knew it would count for Clean Hands and Ghost though, good to know when I play again.
With a game like this, one that gives you a bunch of sneaking and killing tools and lets you choose how to use, it makes me wonder if you'll ever touch on the Thief or Hitman series, and perhaps the "power fantasy" of stealth games. In Thief games the goal is get in, steal us much as possible without ever getting noticed, and get out. The "Ghost" play through where you leave no trace you were there. In Hitman there's the idea that Agent 47 kills his targets, and *only* his targets, without anyone knowing he was there and in ways that make it look like accidents, and the thrill is basically living up to his standards. In Dishonored, as you mention, the idea is "who are you when there is nothing anyone can do to stop you?" In games like Hitman and Thief I think the idea is "what do you do when you're *told* the correct way to do something, but given the freedom to do things your own way?" And then of course there's the general stealth power fantasy of instead of being too strong for anyone to stop, it's instead being equal or lesser than your enemies in terms of strength but being able to render your enemies' strength meaningless through wit and skill.
My main gripe with the chaos system is that it kinda stips away the choice from the player, as it's obvious what the game considers "good" and what "bad". It's like when your mom tells you that "you may want to clean you room" - technically you have a choice, but we all know what you should do. The high chaos ending is undisputably bad, and the low chaos ending is undisputably good. The real test for player's character would be if power in the game worked just like power irl - there's no karma, nothing is stopping you from using your power on others, the ending you get doesn't depend on some invisible morality meter being high or low. There are actions and there are consequences, I don't like the idea of trying to put everything on a black and white scale, especially if the white is easily the better side for everyone in all scenarios.
The way you speak, your script writing, and your video editing have made me an immediate fan of your content and this game, both of which I’ve never heard of before today 👏🏼
5:55 blacking out the murder after saying this was a stroke of genius editing. The only way it could have been better is hard cutting to sam and not showing the body
15:10 something else we know, that makes this even more complex, is that the abbey’s definition of “evidence” can be as simple as “a sworn overseer said so”. So that evidence could have been proof she was a witch, or it could have been bullshit.
A BIG thing that no one seems to see is that "Who are you when you can't be stopped" And "Who are you when no one is looking" is the same question. When no one is there to care your power is uncheckable.
I think there is a slight but noticeable difference between the two and to conflate them is a disservice to those who watch. In the situation that "no one is watching" there is nothing at all to stop you, in the situation that "no one can stop you" to do evil is all the more dastardly, as you deny humanity to those who stand in your way, you subjugate their wants to yours, and ultimately you deny their personhood. In summation, they're only the same to those who would do evil when no one can stop them.
@@julieta6138 there's also the possibility that you *can't* do something regardless of if someone's watching or not, and the second may give you the power to do that thing
Damn... That was a good video. Anyways YO WATCH THIS KNIFEDUNK OFF KALDWIN'S BRIDGE! But fr I never knew about the beginning dialogue once you escape or most of the things mentioned. I've never seen a video that made me think about a game other than "I've been wronged, someone helps and anyone else who stands in my way will die by my hand."
"Who are you when no one can stop you?" Not a simple question by any means. But, to answer in brief: a flawed individual trying to be a good person. A monster seeking to do what's right. And, I hope, able to save the world from itself. All I want is the means to make the misery stop. For all of us.
Remembering how in Disco Elysium so many people said the only thing stopping them from being abusive monsters was the fact that Detective Kim would be disappointed in them. That game was also a really good example of that.
Honestly, I even own the second game; just never done anything with it. It even looks really well put together, but any time I watch to play a game like it, I just replay Dishonored.
@@ThaneBishopI’ve played and enjoyed both. The second game does a lot more for non-lethal players. More dedicated gadgets for KOs. You can also KO by parrying. Corvo feels like Batman.
I went into your video expecting to hear things I've heard already (I'm starved for Dishonored content, so I'm watching every video I can find). What I did not expect to come away with is book recommendations. I'll be checking out Guy Gavriel Kay as soon as my next Audible credit drops.
i think dishonoured in many ways is the opposite extreme on the Ludonarrative Dissonance debate as games like uncharted, tomb raider etc. A game were killing most defineately has an affect on the story, on your character and every other character. but in my opinion it still fails narratviely and gameplay wise, the chaos system does nothing to justify why saving the scientist doesnt cure the plague in high chaos, why does a sheltered princess draw her father differently, act differently. more important for me, the game offers you one of the most satisfying and complex combat systems and then throws it away with 90% stealth for a good mission outcome. The game ramfists patience and waiting instead of bumrushing but doesnt make that patience fun, the rewards of low chaos are too low, the story too shallow for an actual moral debate.
Wow, what a lovely piece of work. It's been a some while since I played the first game, but I've never heard someone so deftly articulate what made this game so special to myself and so many others.
Whenever someone complains that this game punishes them for ‘having fun’, I disregard their opinion because they clearly miss the point. Being good isn’t fun. In real life, being good means putting effort into benefitting others. Most of the time, said actions to benefit others is monotonous or dull. If being a good person is fun, it would defeat the message of the game. The message, that being good takes effort and patience. That if you take the ‘easy’ way out, the ‘fun’ route, then it means you would succumb to the lure of misusing power. Absolute power doesn’t corrupt absolutely, it simply enables. Doing things the right way, for a right cause is and always will be extremely difficult and extremely tedious. Why do you think so many people justify using bad means to do good things? Because it is easier. Because it is simpler. Cause it’s very easy to say ‘for the greater good’ while condemning others for that purpose. A truly good person? Wouldn’t make that sacrifice. Would work hard, would put in countless effort to make sure that nobody suffers for the sake of other’s wellbeing. In this game, your actions matter. It reflects how you view the world. Will you take the easy way out? Slaughter everything that stands in your way? Or will you tough out the monotony and dullness for the sake of a better world?
@@charlesatanasioNot really, to be true good you have to put others first. Upon doing so, your own wellbeing and even enjoyment would often be sacrificed. This huge requirement of dedication and discipline is the reason why true good is rarer than even previous gemstones and special metals. Because ultimately the path of utopia is paved in blood, where a truly good person would use their own instead of sacrificing others.
@@Jgamer-jk1bp How would that be true good? Seriously "you are only good if you get nothing out of it and you hate yourself" has to be the most hypocritical self-hating viewpoint you can have. Shut up.
@@charlesatanasio You are purposely misreading and misrepresenting my statement to make my point seem evil. If you wish to continue this conversation I would advise you to not pull off this kind of bullshit. If you really don’t like my statement you have the prime choice to do this; Fuck off and don’t response. Or even better, don’t even read it and simply leave. If this isn’t clear enough, here’s something that you cannot misinterpret no matter how much you warp my words; Shut the fuck up. I wanted a nice and clean discussion on philosophy and people like you are why we can’t have nice things. Since you respond to me with such hostility, I’ll do the same.
When no one can stop me. I will do just as I do when no one can stop me when I'm maxed out in a multiplayer video game. I'd help out the young folks, deal with bullies and make life a better experience for everyone, conveniently.
I personal philosophy when it comes to power is this: If you have the power to help people, and it would cost you almost nothing to do, then therefore you should be obligated to help. As for absolute power, for good or bad anyone with it would eventually become authoritarian, enforcing their will on everyone.
I first found you from your first video a year ago back when you only had around 300 subscribers and then kind of forgot until now, it's really nice to see how much this channel has grown
The first time i played this game I was convinced that the outsider was Johnny Depp. The tone of his voice to the way he dressed he kind of looked like johnny did in dark shadows. I thought that if they ever made a live action dishonored movie Johnny Depp would be the obvious choice for the outsider. A lot less likely now and despite all the controversy, I still have his face in my head cannon whenever I see the outsider.
I love that I'm watching this as someone who refuses to do a high chaos playthrough because the only characters I want to truly punish are the ones responsible for making the mess in the first place. I don't even kill them. The low chaos options are so much more terrible for them.
This video is a masterpiece! You single handedly made me fall in love with Dishonored again. You showed a depth to me I never even realized existed having not completed a low chaos run. Inspired by your video, I played through the game twice in a couple of days, feeling like teenager again, not being able to lay down the controller. Thank you for this video, it had a profound effect on me
I've never met anyone more determined to flip off the algorithm, the only way you could do it more intensely would be having AI Trump spout badspeak for the first 30 seconds. I love this video from concept to execution. And if you want to host a guest tape about Night City while you talk about games, leave a comment here.
@@ThaneBishop Instant pitch is a history of the American collapse, ended with: "And the only way to stop an evil man with a fascist megacorporation is a Woman with a fascist megacorporation."
Honestly.... I never did play a high chaos run. In this game you are never the hero. You are right hand of Justice or Wrath. You simply get to pick your poison. I liked to choose the side of justice.
High chaos certainly has the same feel as "You did it because you could. And because you could, you had to."
Ooh I like that
The temptation of power being too much to avoid, like those that argue power doesn't corrupt merely reveals what has always been there
- Sans Undertale
My x lover best friend and baby momma Jennifer Christine lamprecht, Isabelle Christina whomever she is I miss her terribly . I must also apologize to Natasha Pawliuk for breaking my other best friends heart ❤️ , are triangle has left me feeling dread as if both parties are currently in horrible condition and or being abused.
Jennifer Christine lamprecht will always be my baby momma and a true love, Natasha Pawliuk will always be my first real love.
Every day I feel like a spectre splitting into eternity from the book Four Zoas by William Blake, horrible agony as we split into eternity.
My x Jennifer Christine lamprecht, was friends with a coyote from mexico and has a best friend James , she's rumored to be with a killer called Kyle.
I worried her worst nightmare of dying alone could become a reality I said I'd never let that happen even if she hates my guts , it's my word.
@@edwardnashton553there are always a combination of choices and circumstances at play, it’s useful to remember that.
I do find some truth in the concept that the corruption that comes with power is often a result of it revealing or somehow unlocking an inner nature that was already there, but there’s different kinds of ways that happens with people as well, and their individual choices and intentions often play a big part in characterizing those differences.
All that aside, I think the simplest way to think of it this: that, as social creatures, the farther humankind ventures from being beasts, the closer we get to becoming monsters.
The reality is that our choice to frame it in terms of power having an intrinsic quality in that it corrupts those who have or wield it is an oversight that distracts us from the underlying fact that power just is. It is a tool like any other humans have invented. It is we who are intrinsically, inherently corruptible. It is not impossible to possess power and wield it responsibly, but it may be true that, by our very nature, it is inevitable that not everyone will be able or willing to make the best choices with how they use their power.
As thinking beings, we are capable of a broad range of behaviors in response to our environment. The more complex we get, the more varied and complex the behavior patterns that lead to success and survival will be, particularly in social contexts. Different thought processes and subsequent behaviors will inevitably crop up and combine in different ways over and over through time, and so long as there are incentives to choose to opt for short-sighted or self-serving behaviors for self-gratifying or short-term rewards, there will be times when the temptation works and leads to these undesirable outcomes. Most of us, if not all, are more or less equally capable of using both kinds of behavioral modality when it suits us, and often do use both, in varying degrees, in every day life. It’s not a bad thing or a flaw either, it’s just what it means to be human, and part of that is walking the line between serving oneself and the others around them, both of which are important to our well-being. Recognition of this fact is important so we don’t lose sight of where we are drawing this line between ourselves and the rest of world and so we are better able to actually determine where we set our expectations and perceptions of others.
Do keep in mind that low chaos is actually much harder than high chaos, you can only kill less than 20% of all available NPCs so if you actually end up FIGHTING people you basically get stuck in high chaos
Even if the first guard WAS mean to Corvo, he was almost definitely under the assumption that Corvo wasn't set up, like most people.
And last i checked, "big meanie" isn't grounds for changing someone's tense from present to past.
Think again: in the game you can choose to be merciful, but corvo is against the whole country, good people for good reasons and bad people for bad people, and he can't let people live, cause he's still human at the end
@@ralfdsouza-ko7dyMan you an angry mofo. I sympathize. But that's not what it's about. He's against the corruption and the conspiracy, but most people don't know anything about that. One thing about it is this. The random guard on the street probably knows less about it than any given noble at the party.
@@Voidi-Void Mercy is a luxury. The player, knowing that he is in no danger, can afford to try until getting a perfect take.
Corvo, in universe - not so much.
@@Voidi-Voidbring falsely imprisoned is 100% grounds though
I think another thing that is worth mentioning is that the introduction to the rats in the sewers also has very important dialogue. "Rookies like you never saw the guy. He could fight 3 on 1 in the yard. The guy is a whirlwind."
Even before being granted superhuman powers, Corvo was absolutely the best fighter in Dunwall, and probably even the entire empire. He was ALWAYS going to be unstoppable.
Of which fits perfectly into a plot to frame Corvo for the Empress' murder.
"I don't want to fight this guy."
"Naw, mate, I don't want to either."
"Okay.... let's use the justice system? See if he really is a good enough guy to stay in prison long enough for us to get the heck out of Dunwall."
"Hey! Corvo is getting executed tomorrow! We can stay at home and have brandy and cigars!"
"Got a baaaad feeling about this..."
@@karkosgiehexThey didn't originally mean to frame Corvo.
in the hound pits pub after the flooded district, theres two dudes talking outside about you. basically "i heard the guy is a monster, tearing through the city" "i heard they locked him in the cages for the hounds and only let him out at night with a blade the name of his target" the whole deal is "that man is fucking terrifying" and its a whole ass conversation lol i always listen to it whenever i get to that point
@@karkosgiehex Their original plan was to strike while he was away. Framing him when he showed up early was a panicked improvisation. Which goes to show that they did not want to fight him.
@@dreamerwav698 this is a high chaos only dialogue, in which corvo IS a fuckin terrifying monster
“Listen buddy, the rats need food and I make sure they have it. I’m doing a service.”
-Corvo Probably
My x lover best friend and baby momma Jennifer Christine lamprecht, Isabelle Christina whomever she is I miss her terribly . I must also apologize to Natasha Pawliuk for breaking my other best friends heart ❤️ , are triangle has left me feeling dread as if both parties are currently in horrible condition and or being abused.
Jennifer Christine lamprecht will always be my baby momma and a true love, Natasha Pawliuk will always be my first real love.
Every day I feel like a spectre splitting into eternity from the book Four Zoas by William Blake, horrible agony as we split into eternity.
My x Jennifer Christine lamprecht, was friends with a coyote from mexico and has a best friend James , she's rumored to be with a killer called Kyle.
I worried her worst nightmare of dying alone could become a reality I said I'd never let that happen even if she hates my guts , it's my word.
@@JoshuaMiller-rw3sjI ain't reading allat
@@JoshuaMiller-rw3sj i wonder if dishonored players around the world will band together to help the broken hearted Joshua Miller
Not sure :/ they at have tried to get rid of alot of us. Surprisingly unable to forgive myself for my thoughts of the last 3 years , I'm not sure if anyone will bring assistance.
Praying for the best.
I am noone just a reminder of a time in the past which led to the present, which led to the past.
My disabled friend Becca , severe schizophrenic , made the ohh you were hacked , didn't think much of it , till the last of my fall from grace .
I do blame trauma like some , although trauma played a huge roll , something Ethier on or my father's or mothers also friends who are not friends like Tyler Blaney wether jealousy , envi or just down right indifference I aloud to change who I was, this although not instantly was my fall from grace. I'm in great fear currently there are bigger snakes then myself long since extinct that may return that lack empathy understanding and above all else forgiveness.
I may be blamed forever for my fall , never to be forgiven or even if I was by others ,I myself will find it hard to forgive myself.
Dancing with the shadow of myself and others leads to a dark besmear a constant juggling of a contradiction within the self.
Recently this shadow has left , a storm drifting onward , peace reigns within myself a form of zen lulls over my mind like a blanket.
Lack of subjective knowledge of events paired with high trauma lead to memory blockages and damaged recollection, to a lack of evidence regarding blame on the matter ,lacking objective truths.
Verdict no one's to blame.
I still will find it a mammoth task to forgive myself.
We must learn to use discernment in all matters .
I think my favorite part of this game is the tone that The Outsider takes with you depending on whether you choose High or Low Chaos. He's neither good nor evil, sure. But he also *knows* that he gave you unrestricted power. He expects you to use that power selfishly, and hold it over the common man just like all the others have done.
Daud, Delilah, Granny Rags, the Executioner. They all have Marks, and they've all chosen to exert their power over others in one way or another. So he sounds...more or less bored when you do the same in High Chaos. In True Chaos he sounds mocking, like he gave you all that power and you still failed. It's only in Low Chaos that he sounds...satisfied. By showing mercy and leaving the world in a better state, you truly surprised and fascinated him by being totally unlike all the others. And as a result he seems content with what you showed him.
Nice take
Even to an audience or even as a player, Low Chaos is very entertaining to watch. And the Outside is starving for entertainment.
So... How is the outsider or any other version of spooky powerful entity who gives power to humans(almost exclusively to the ones most likely to have morally complex and personally scarring misadventures) not evil? Like, bring it down to a more human level, let's say some creepo observes a poor person for years and when that person is at their absolute lowest point the creep approaches them, hands them a gun, a lockpick, and a list of people's schedules in a 50 mile radius, just 100% enticing and empowering someone to commit crimes and maybe even kill people, that's evil!
@@devin5201 He isn't evil because he gives powers to people he finds "interesting". Meaning he could give those powers to anyone, good, evil, or somewhere in between. As long as they manage to catch his attention. For example, while he might not have given Pierro powers, he does find him interesting enough to visit him in his dreams and provide inspiration for his inventions.
He also doesn't force the marked to do anything. Unlike, for example, an evil Patron from D&D, he doesn't require any price in exchange. He only gives them the power, and then sits back to see what happens. What they do with it is completely on them. It's not the Outsider's fault that the previous people he's granted a Mark to have used the power for selfish gain.
@@Gabriel-oq8gsuhuh, and as stated these kinds of characters always give the powers to the people most likely to have a messed up quest, and the powers are never like the ability to heal people or magically make someone more empathic, it's almost always a very martially focused power, almost as if what they find "interesting" is inviting chaos and suffering into the world, hell by comparison the patrons that force the vessel to murder give the person the ability to say "I had no choice, if I don't do it the monster will punish me."
“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.” is the quote that always comes to mind when a game lets me decide between killing and sparing. Dishonored gives you so many tools to effectively kill everyone in your way, then tells you you're a bad guy for using them and it's hard to really figure what I think about that. On one hand, you're missing out on all the fun by not killing, but on the other, it makes doing "good" a real mechanical concession and that adds so much you don't see in any other games with a morality system. You actually have to go out of your way to end on low chaos and not just slit every throat in the game and have rats feast on the corpse for your amusement, it's fantastic. But it's not as fun as high chaos, and games are supposed to be fun. All this without even going into the actual morality of the chaos system, which is also extremely interesting to analyse, considering how much bad you can do just to avoid slitting throats. The DIshonored series is super interesting to dive into.
games need to make being good hard and being evil easy. being evil should feel GOOD and doing good should kinda suck
In my opinion, the game doesn't do enough to pressure the player into being evil. It's far too easy to get through most levels with non-lethal takedowns and the basic Blink ability. I feel like the game really needed to do more to make the player desperate, and make them believe that a certain amount of evil was "necessary".
I wouldn't say games are meant to be fun. They are meant to be entertaining, rewarding and/or engaging. "Fun" is just an easy way to achieve these things.
@@tbotalpha8133 I don't think that pressure needs to really exist, honestly. It simply gives you the tools to accomplish both low and high chaos, and leaves the rest up to you.
@@negative6442 I quite agree. If the game pushed players more towards either good or evil, the players would be able to blame the devs for pushing one style or the other. Now if you are playing the high-chaos side, you have nobody to blame but yourself.
Fun fact about Havelock at the end. On my second playthrough I tried something quite silly, knowing where the key is, I snuck behind him and grabbed the key, blinked to the door and let Emily out. The game ends right there with Havelock just standing right there somehow not hearing anything, completely unaware that I just saved Emily before he even knew I arrived on the island.
curiously you dont have to eliminate him. canonically corvo kills him
@@kawaiibats2822
Yeah, but what's he going to do either way?
Corvo can deal with him later, right then he needs to attend to his daughter.
@@Firesgone if blink can canonically work while holding someone he could just teleport away with emily if havelock tried anything
@@PhoebeTheFairy56 I didn't need that point, but that belongs in the pile. Yes.
Anybody else notice that Timothy Brisby, cladvin a rat mask, is a blatant reference to the Secret of NIMH?
Ahh, me childhood, 'tis well t' see ya again.
Dishonored: to the player, it's a game.
To the Outsider, it's a movie.
Not quite though, more like interactive one at least, because he drastically changes the outcome by giving and not giving powers to certain people.
This game taught me that when no one can stop me... my preference is for nonlethal take downs. Even when I got to Nightcity, it was the same story. No one will ever know I was there, and no one can do anything to stop my actions, but they all get to wake up the next morning with the ringing headache of being swiftly knocked unconscious and a story to share with their friends.
Same with both, in dishonored I tried my best to be stealthily and fail many times, and in nightcity I preferred knockouts to kills and would only kill when I was forced.
Me too. Only when I have infinite reloads though haha.
I also play exclusively none lethal in MGS V including tanks ...until the game forces you to kill certain enemies like bosses and helis you can't capture them
I went out of my way to non-lethal most of 2077 as well. Unfortunately, despite using non lethal weapons pretty much exclusively, quite a few people ended up dead anyway because of various janky nonsense. Like if you do enough nonlethal to put someone down and then hit them with another nonlethal while they're falling, apparently that's killing now. Now that I'm looking at starting another play through, I'm hoping that's less of a thing. Or at least that they'll fall down faster.
I do the same in Metro on human levels. When no one can see me, when no one can _stop_ me... I only pass through, leaving everyone I can alive so that they may wake up hours later, only to find themselves with a splitting headache and without ammo.
Edit: It also saves you ammo to use on purely mutant levels.
10:32 "She starves so that her children can have bread" - As my focus goes to the blinking purse just perfectly ready for the taking xD
I felt so bad with some of the loot you can take. Robbing Bunting is one thing, but taking elixir from the needy is just cruel
I wasn't wearing my glasses so I read that as "chickens" and was incredibly confused
I've never really thought about the money I steal from civilians before, think I'm gonna forego their cashmoney the next time I play
Hey, those new, silent boots aren't gonna pay for themselves. Hehe.
"You watched and listened when other men would have shouted in rage. You held back instead of striking. "
My favorite quote of the game, made me realize the virtue of insight back in the day when I was a lot younger. And turned me wiser for it.
Well, i like to think it did.
My favorite way to deal with Daud, as difficult as it is, is to blink in, snatch his key and his wallet, then blink away without getting spotted at all. Not taking revenge, not taking his life… but making sure he knows I _could_ have. Making him know that, for as long as he lives, he will have to watch over his shoulder, because he will never know when I’ll come back to make good on my silent promise.
And maybe I will, someday, when Emily is older and threats to her safety need to be handled. But maybe I never will, and he’ll go to the grave with one eye open, always watching for a crow to stab him from behind.
Playing the psychological game is far more fun for me than just killing them. After all, they can’t be terrified of the ghost that stalks the night if they’re dead.
(Also I know this is all super melodramatic lemme have this it’s fun)
Naaaah, dude, it's awesome.
@@swordsmancs This is pretty much exactly what I did and why.
Wow...
I love how you think.
But dueling Daud and sparing him is better, in my opinion.
@@swordsmancs to be fair, daud knows if you spare him regardless of if he actually detects you, he KNOWS you're there and KNOWS that you will likely come for revenge, if you manage to leave he knows you took mercy on him (also not dueling him means he dosent give his cool ass speech)
Hide-and-seek community needs more representation in media
Honestly the worst part is that regionals was supposed to happen the next day. They had to cancel the whole event.
"Alright Corvo, now close your eyes and count to six months"
Dux
I haven't been able to find them??
jaydes reference
What i like, how Emily see you, the drawing of his father or the mask.
It feels like the thing that's most important. Almost everything else, one _could_ chalk up to a moralistic writer using "karma" to produce consequences you couldn't have foreseen. But the way you influence how a child sees you and who they grow up to be, that's just real. Those little guys are sponges and they'll suck in anything you teach them, intentionally or not. If they're smart, they'll even learn the excuses you use to justify yourself. Parenting sounds scary.
@pedroscoponi4905 being a teacher's even worse, especially in elementary. some bad parent can easily start slandering you claiming all the bad things their child.learned are your fault
so tiresome, dealing with parents
One of the things I find particularly interesting about doing a Low Chaos/Clean Hands run is that you can't just knock someone out and wash your hands of them. My first time playing, during Corvo's first 'Mission' dealing with Campbell, I knocked someone out and left him sprawled out in the alley between Granny Rag's house and bottle street, assuming there would be no issue because there was no one left conscious in the area to find him.
The rats ate him.
I had to re-do the level because a wandering swarm of rats came across the man I had knocked out, leaving him defenseless, and stripped the flesh from his bones. It was counted in my kill count, his death was on my hands. It was not enough merely to stay my blade, if I wanted my hands to remain truly clean I had to not only not kill anyone directly but I also needed to ensure their safety while they could not defend themselves.
Every time I knocked someone out, I not only had to dedicate the extra time required of a sleeper hold, or the extra resources of a sleeper dart, but I had to take the time to find somewhere I could leave someone where they would be both hidden and safe, and then go to the effort of getting them there safely (Word to the wise, if you toss an unconscious guard down to far a distance to your 'safe' hiding spot for them the fall damage will kill them). Mercy was not a choice simply made in the moment when choosing between a blade or a chokehold, but something that had to be actively continued long after the lethal choice would have ended.
yeah this screwed my chance at a Clean Hands run when i was playing Dishonored 2 (which seems to be a much easier game); on one single mission, i shot an enemy with a sleep dart, they fell over the railing, and only after i overwrote my save did i find out the fall killed them. it was my first playthrough so i did not go through all the trouble of starting over to save one life, but it stung that my carelessness lost me an achievement i would otherwise have gotten had i just been a little more considerate
@@ivorymask2599*guard falls headfirst off the second floor into the street*
"Oh no. Anyway-"
@@Albatross0913 tbf this was Royal Conservatory, from a height i could drop without taking damage; i did not think the fall would kill a witch outright
OH CRAP, THAT'S WHY? Dang, now I have to rerun the entire game again with this in mind, maybe I can finally get a clean ghost run...
@@ivorymask2599 I had a no kill no alarm run but I got cocky and strangled an NPC that was being foreshadowed to reappear later. He turned to crows in my hands and I was like wth? Oh guess I can't kill him now... little did I notice or know but that was A DETECTION. RIP the run.
"Character, real character, is what you are in the dark, where no one would ever know or see."
my issue with all stealth games is that im a perfectionist and so no one can spot me ever or I will restart the mission.
My x lover best friend and baby momma Jennifer Christine lamprecht, Isabelle Christina whomever she is I miss her terribly . I must also apologize to Natasha Pawliuk for breaking my other best friends heart ❤️ , are triangle has left me feeling dread as if both parties are currently in horrible condition and or being abused.
Jennifer Christine lamprecht will always be my baby momma and a true love, Natasha Pawliuk will always be my first real love.
Every day I feel like a spectre splitting into eternity from the book Four Zoas by William Blake, horrible agony as we split into eternity.
My x Jennifer Christine lamprecht, was friends with a coyote from mexico and has a best friend James , she's rumored to be with a killer called Kyle.
I worried her worst nightmare of dying alone could become a reality I said I'd never let that happen even if she hates my guts , it's my word.
Try committing and improvising. When you feel the urge to reload a previous save, instead stop and play out your current situation. It'll mix up how you play, certainly.
@@jimijenkins2548 real
@@jimijenkins2548 the issue isn't that, it's being spotted in the first place, in fact there's an achievement for that specifically, not being seen for more than like 8 frames
@@toobig7150Yeah the issue resides in the save system. Ghost should be a challenge forcing you to master the game, not a save scumming incentive. A save system similar to Dark Souls' would be better. But then, it would displease players who want to breeze through the game making the genre even more niche.
Whenever I play dishonored, I can't help but go Clean Hand and Ghost at the same time. It just feels fitting that the man who was slandered, who's name was shouted and damned across an empire, would take down those same corrupt people without a word, or even a glimpse at who or what could do it. Plus I like the achievements.
Keep up the good work! Loving your vids from what I've seen.
I think there is a niche, very specific power fantasy that Dishonored delivers. The notion of, "we both know I could have, but I didn't even need to."
@@ThaneBishopI saw a post talking about the worst thing you can do to Daud is to take the key out from under him and leave. Not touching a hair on his head, but letting the best assassin in the world know that you held his life in your hands, and he wasn’t even aware of your presence.
Hard agree - I always do that too. I did one play through like a hurricane of knives, bullets and rats; I didn’t really enjoy it and felt kind of bad about it afterwards.
I've gone full villain angel of vengeance and moral high ground protagonist on all three games and DLC. I love it too and there's not enough games of this kind and quality around.
It is a superb observation on how power could corrupt and absolute power is dangerous on anyone's hands no matter the motivation.
I also think he'd do it for Emily's sake. Imagine how she'd grow up and into her role, knowing what Corvo did, AND knowing that power is essentially at her beck and call.
I didn't finish the video before commenting. Glad it was touched on at the end.
My love for Dishonored was always the fact that the endings weren't entirely you shaping the world, it was done by the one person who's opinion on Corvo actually mattered to him. We don't doom the world, we teach our daughter to do it instead.
Then when you play Dishonored 2 as Emily, the playstyle you prefer makes sense because that's exactly what Corvo had taught Emily to do with such unchecked power.
When I first wrote my Dishonored 2 song, I did a lot of story analysis, but somehow, the idea that I would play both games the same way slipped by me. Been considering taking a second shot at it, and if I do, this is definitely something I'd like to mention.
I'm going at it a bit different. When I play Dishonored 2, I imagine it's a continuation of the Low Chaos ending.
Emily saw how his father handled the situation with barely a drop of blood spilled, and it worked. So now she's doing the same.
Corvo remembers how difficult it was to go through the entire plot with the added difficulty of keeping citizens safe. And now there's another, very similar mess to sort. So he resorts to the easy solution: Kill the problem. Besides, Karnaca is not his home. The threat is not domestic.
@@pelipoika88 But Karnaca is his birthplace and he lived there for quite some time. I don't think he would just disregard the lives of the people who live there.
@@Mario098760 Huh, I had somehow missed or forgotten that.
@@pelipoika88Corvo literally says "We used to throw stones at them as a kids" (or sth like that) when he first encounters the bloodflies
And then there's the morality of sparing and how it doesn't equal forgiveness. You can "spare" Lady Boyle by giving her away to a pervert.
On a site note, I can't really rememeber if it's in the notes around the party's level, but she's basically a blackwidow and the future the entity saw was a result of her killing that guy to never go back to dunwall.
Take it with a grain of salt tho.
Yeah that's probably the most morally bad decision I've ever made for a "good" ending. Pretty sure even the Devs realised that it was a horrible idea so they semi-retconned it by having Boyle live out her life happily on the perv's estate after killing him and taking all his money
Still better than fate of Pendleton's
The best part of the game are most of the neutralize options. They’re so much crueler, they’ll wish you had just killed em.
What do you mean "pervert" ? Bruh was t it her husbands i played the games multiple times and didnt notice 💀
This video really spoke to me on a personal level, because back when I started playing dishonored on my 360 was when I was actually beginning to explore "higher" concepts like empathy and consequence as a child. My first few dozen runs of the game were complete bloodbaths, where I ran through collecting as many runes and money as I could scrounge to buy more elixirs, bullets and powers so I can kill more guards and beat more levels. I developed this rhythm where I discovered optimal paths and ways to minimise the resources I needed to use so I could have the most fun and find the most creative ways to blow up a small squad of guards. It never really occurred to me that the reason things were so dark or there were so many dead people were because of what I was making Corvo do as the player, I was having fun and didn't really have the empathy to understand or care. Only when I came back to the game years later seeking out some lost nostalgia of better days did I start noticing all the little things little me didn't, and it was only then did I start to appreciate low chaos and stealth runs, even got my first no kill ghost run. I'm happy to see I'm not the only one who noticed these things.
had a very similar experience, played it on my 360 when i was a kid, killed everything and everyone that stood in my way, never it occurred to me that my decisions would influence the ending, then i searched on youtube what other people thought about the ending just to see some reactions, then i saw a different ending to mine which confused me, after i found out there were multiple endings i then saw how much difference there was between low and high chaos, how many more people lived and how things seemed less dark, having Samuel in the end be nice was shocking because i thought it was obvious the game wanted me to finish the story, so i was confused where he critcised me and shot to alert the others
overall once i finished the game like 3 times i really got a much more deeper of understanding, specifically in real life, how my actions can be different to what is normally expected, how my actions can influence for the best or worst, before that i was much more superficial boy, didn't think there was much to life other than being told what to do and complete the tasks given to me, but i gained a deeper and more comprehensive and thoughtful understanding of myself, my actions and my environment.
As I put it to a friend,
Dishonored rewards mercy, but being merciful and being good are not the same thing.
That is a really interesting phrase. Being good and being merciful are not the same. Really like it, both in context and out of it.
That comment prompts you to explore a question of virtue ethics, which is to say, should we be more concerned with the rightness of our actions or of our outcomes? I personally believe there's a complex kind of overlap between the two answers and that it's not simply one of the other, but also that we are humans and if we were to obsess over outcomes exclusively, we would find ourselves in such spiritual misalignment that we wouldn't be able to keep up the charade, however "optimized" for utility it may be.
@TwentySeventhLetter They both matter. Outcomes are far more easily measured. And people tend to judge themselves by their intentions and judge others by the outcomes. Such is human nature.
@ashtonpeterson4618 I'd say the opposite is actually true. People tend to judge others by their intentions, and themselves by the outcome. This could simply be because someone is being more critical of others or simply because they measure intention more highly, but I've noticed that when you are in closer proximity to someone for a longer time, when you see more of them, rather, you judge their intentions more than their outcome. Probably because you have more stake in them.
If doing something right is measured by its outcome, then what is essentially evil can be called right. Which is a hoax on a philosophical level. No matter how much mental gymnastics you do, you can't end up calling that which is evil, good, or that which is good, evil. Unless your perspective is skewed. If by telling the truth, someone innocent dies, does that mean that telling the truth is evil? Which begs a broader question, do I have to have full knowledge of all the consequences before I do something? Which begs an even broader question, is righteousness attainable on a human level, seeing as we are imperfect beings with finite understanding?
What I love about Dishonored's story is how it shows what having absolute power can do to a person.
High Overseer Campbell is supposed to be the head of the state church, but he is, of course, a massive hypocrite as he takes full advantage of his station and breaks most of the tenets of the Order.
The Pendleton twins are just spoiled rich brats who were always awful people, especially towards their younger brother, Treavor. Despite them being terrible people, the twins were the ones who inherited most of the family's wealth and are the ones calling the shots.
Hiram Burrows believed that he knew what was best for Dunwall and the Empire and believed that if everyone just did as he said, the world would be better. He first saw the poor as a blight on the City, so he used his connections as Spy Master to smuggle rats from Pandyssia and started the plague. When that failed, he decided to have Empress Jasmine assassinated so he could take over as Lord Regent, and all he did was make things worse.
The Loyalists become just as guilty as Hiram and his cronies. They realized that in their efforts to overthrow Hiram's illegitimate regime, they had replaced him, and were poised to take over the Empire for themselves. They could've been better than those they had Corvo take care of, but instead fell victim to their greed and lust for power. And just like Campbell, Morgan and Custis Pendleton, and Hiram Burrows, Martin, Treavor, and Haevlok pay the price for their corruption.
You can chose to have Corvo become corrupted by power the same as everyone else, or you can chose to restrain yourself, and do what's only necessary to achieve the greater good of the city and the Empire.
WAit what, Hiram caused the plague? I don't remember that info anywhere.
@SwordWieldingDuck When you infiltrate Dunwall Tower, there's a safe in his bedroom. Inside is a card that, once played on the broadcast tower, plays his confession to the whole thing. He had the rats brought in from Pandyssia with the intention that the disease they carried would wipe out the poor and homeless. As intelligent as Hiram makes himself out to be, he never considered that the plague would run out of control.
@@SwordWieldingDuck You didn't know? Then how did you eliminate him? Lethally? The nonlethal option reveals his hand over the plague in order to kill the poor.
As a wise man once said, "With great power there must also come great responsibility."
Also I'd like to add that Campbell doesn't break most tenets of the church. He breaks all of them, the seven strictures, daily, or at least tries to, as a sort of personal joke. The heart tells you that if you use it on him.
Thanks, algorithm. Here from the stealth archer video. You do good work, sir!
same here
oh the accuracy lol
Lol same :D
Same.
What video?
24:40 what’s a little neat in detail is that you can actually kill Samuel before he fires his weapon to alert the island.
On my first playthrough (High Chaos, of course) I shot him as soon as I saw the pistol. I genuinely thought he was going to turn it on me.
@@AlyssMa7rin 😅😅
Or after, out of pure spite.
Power doesn’t corrupt, but you can trust the corrupt to want it more than most.
Power reveals, it always has.
"Power corrupts and absolute power, absolutely corrupts."
@@Get_It_Back_In_Blood I’m gonna be honest, I never agreed with that particular statement. I don’t think power corrupts, it just reveals what’s behind the mask.
@@Get_It_Back_In_Blood Incorrect. Power simply amplifies what has always been here all along.
@@Get_It_Back_In_Blood"if you want to test a person's character, give him absolute power." Abraham Lincoln.
I just wanted to say this has completely changed my life, and the entire way I play video games. I used to play an assassin stealth playthrough where I kill everyone, and now I have a hard time killing anyone a d go with the ghost playstyle.
It's a great way of looking at Spider-Man's motto of "With great power comes great responsibility."
I remember when Dishonored 2 came out and I was so excited to do a Ghost+Clean Hands run. To be someone with all this power and to not been seen or even mentioned of gave me a huge sense of freedom, it really makes me appreciate the game as a whole.
Finally someone who gets it. Whenever I hear people whine about "being punished for having fun" I get a little frustrated about how bad you can miss the narrative
Fully agree
There's games for mindless fun. Not every game has to be like that, just like not every movie is *BOOBXPLOSIONS!*
@@Ramsey276one My turn to fully agree with this ;)
The game is fun, it is a STEALTH GAME, of course you'll be punished for being seen
Well the problem with this whole narrative setup is that the tools for both outcomes are horribly unbalanced. They give you 20 lethal for every non lethal tool. It's fine to make it easier to take the lethal route but it's kind of annoying that they make it both harder and more monotonous to get the good ending. Spending tons of development budget making tools they don't want you to use is an annoying development choice. You're punished for having fun, not because the killing is too fun, but because nit killing is too boring. I think people would have a lot less qualms with the morality system if the non lethal tools were more fleshed out.
@@jonathanhay3212it’s like you didn’t even watch the video. you are literally the exact person the original comment was talking about. you’re completely missing the narrative
the entire point is that YOU, THE PLAYER want to go the lethal route because YOU think it’s more fun. YOU find yourself in corvo’s shoes wanting to take the easy way out and kill whoever gets in YOUR way because YOU think putting in the time & effort to do the right thing isn’t worth the trouble
if the player had the same options between lethal & nonlethal then there would be no choice to be made. which would go against the narrative touching on the nature of right & wrong and playing the role of an unstoppable supernatural force who can’t be held accountable for choosing wrong
and you’re not punished for going high chaos the game literally adapts to give you more enemies to kill so you can have more fun. which, again, loops back into the storytelling
*Power doesn't corrupt, it shows everyone who you really are.*
man, these videos are sO SLEPT ON. ima be PISSED if this channel doesn't take off. you're seriously really good at this, it's clear you have a knack for writing, narrating, and analysis. let's hope you get the recognition that imo you more than deserve.
Haha thanks man! The channel has been doing really well this year, and I really appreciate the support! I'm really looking forward to keeping this thing going.
@@ThaneBishop good to hear it! will be looking out for future vids, made sure to turn notifications on (: wishing you luck
I absolutely loved this game. My first run was Low Chaos, which I attribute to having played Thief "4" beforehand. Which was super fun.
Of course, I immediately did a High Chaos run afterwards, and this game fucking nails the "supernatural assassin" thing. It's insane how fun it is to demolish everything in your path. Samuel had more of an impact on me that playthrough. Losing his respect genuinely felt bad.
Here from "The Stealth Archer Was Inevitable" video and heading into "What It Means To Be Human In Halo" because I adore how you present things and The Algorithm decided I should see them. A little rough, but the passion behind them is evident and that's enough to make me want to share my story.
I don't remember much of my first playthrough in Dishonored when I was younger. Mostly as an incredibly difficult stealth game where nothing ever seemed to get any easier until I got Time Stop and in the end, everything went to hell in a handbasket. Those I trusted, those who saved me from execution, who I did all the dirty work for, were more than eager to discard me like a broken tool after I had served my purpose.
In my absence, they turned on one another like the plague rats they were, too power hungry to wait even for my 'corpse' to cool before trying to cement their tyrannical rule. I was more than happy, despite Samuel's harsh words, to take each and every pound of flesh I felt they owed me. Martin died where he stood, calling out a challenge to the breached fortress wall. Pentleton was a spineless wretch to the end. But confronting Havlock? That was intoxicating. Watching him cower at the end of the walkway, understandably so when faced with the occult-infused monster I had become, seeing him use a child as a shield and laughing because I could simply make Time Itself bend it's great knee before plucking the pathetic life remaining from his body, then save the child he vainly thought would protect him from my wrath.. but due to an interaction bug, Emily, the one thing I was doing all this for, fell to her death. I had done everything asked of me, grown so powerful, for what? Nothing.
I remember walking away, more than a little disgusted with the game because it was a downward spiral with no modicum of happy ending, not even an 'evil' ending with me claiming the bloody throne I had fought so hard for.
"Who are you when you can't be stopped?"
Years later, when I was a more thoughtful, more careful teenager who had very little in the way of entertainment, I thought.. Sure, why not boot that game up? I pay more attention to my surroundings, I'm faster with the controls, I'll struggle far less. Hell, why not try to do an achievement run while I'm at it? I've got nothing but time and this is the only game I'll have for a good while, might as well learn to love it. "Clean Hands - Kill Nobody" and "A Man of (Mostly) Flesh And Steel - Never buy powers (except Blink) and don't upgrade them either" stood out to me. Surely, that would be so impossibly hard at the same time. Throw it on Very Hard too, just to force me to avoid the easy route of combat that little more.
But very quickly I learned this was actually far more doable than I first imagined. Actually, it was rather more fun since I had to be aware enough to save ANYONE from dying, not just keep my personal blade out of someone's neck. Be careful putting people down, since the wrong angle against a staircase could result in death because I simply tossed them without regard for their safety. Keep them off the streets, behind doors, even in dumpsters just so the rats couldn't find a hapless meal served on a cobblestone platter.
I had to learn other ways around certain segments through clever parkour or really learn patrol routes to slip past in all the little foxholes I could find. I could do this or that because someone asked me to, but some of those just felt.. wrong. Like dirtying my hands in a different way and all it got me was another useless piece of painted whale bone, or another few coins to spend on nothing I would need. I had Blink, Sleep Darts and strong arms to manually make anyone I needed 'out of the way' take a well-deserved break.
I cared about what I was doing this time. How "right" to give a woman to her stalker, simply so I didn't stop her heart from beating. Sentencing noble brothers to a short life of, admittedly, poetic justice in the prison of their own making. If having the High Overseer thrown into plagued streets as a Heretic whom absolutely nobody could help without consequences wouldn't result in his death all the same. About how my 'comrades' back at the pub viewed me this time, not as an unstoppable weapon with power beyond reckoning, but a man who was simply very, VERY, good at what he did. Who could make you disappear without killing a single soul or unsheathing his blade.
I was prepared for Samuel to berate me again, something which hardened me the first time around ("Now get off my boat.") as he felt like the only one who truly stood by you through everything you did, partly because I had completely missed he gunshot alert everyone in the last level on High Chaos.
Yet this time.. He was apologetic for the betrayal. Respectful enough to call me 'Sir' still. Praised me, even, for not becoming corrupt like the others. Wished me luck and truly, genuinely hoped I could save Emily to help the Empire get back on track to a brighter future. Maybe even that our paths would cross again. ("Good Luck, my friend.") Having very vivid memories of his admittedly rightful demonization of my first Corvo, I was touched. It really opened my eyes to how different things would be if you didn't see killing as a simple box to be checked and marveled at just how much was different this time around.
The feeling of accomplishment I got when I saw "Clean Hands" and "A Man Of (Mostly) Flesh And Steel", successful after hours and hours of work, was some of the most satisfying I've ever gotten to this day. Not even because of the rarity or difficulty, but because I felt... better. Like this was truly the 'Right' and 'Correct' option, as if I had learned whatever lesson the game was trying to teach.
Even now, if I have the barest inkling that Lethal versus Non-Lethal might make a difference to the story, you can bet I'll take Non-Lethal nearly every time. Cyberpunk 2077 and Prey(2017) were where this truly came to shine, but those are stories for another comment.
Dishonored wasn't a perfect game by any means, but it was good enough to change me.
For that, it'll always hold a special place in my heart.
The sad thing there’s always that one guy who’s been powerless so long he can’t even *role play* the idea of unregulated power
Elaborate?
@@GrassPokeKing defeatists
@@notproductiveproductions3504 Ahhhh, I getcha now
You know Yu-gi-ohs shadow realm
It's kinda funny how a fate worse than death is bizarrely seen as more ethical or more wholesome for kids
Generally because death is permanent, but there's a chance that they'll be able to get out of that situation.
I think I read somewhere that canonically Boyle ends up killing her captor and seizing his wealth.
The book bit reminds me of something from the witcher series, a vision of the future of a random character when he meets ciri, hes nobody, but he hopes to travel the seas. And the vision is of him discovering anew continent, naming a cove, finding islands. Living his dream, but ultimately dying overseas at the cove named after him from illness, far from his future wife and son.
That passage stuck with me and I believe it always will
The guy in the Viking area? The one who took care of her when she was wounded?
I really enjoyed the line about the game valuing life as much as you, the player, does, and will match you. That's a pretty succinct and insightful comment on Dishonored
An interesting insight I had when going for the Mostly Flesh and Steal achievement (not buying any upgrades to your Outsider powers, only using the default, single rank of Blink), is that it's actually a LOT easier to play the game than you think. Because here's the thing....most of the map layouts, are simply filled with loot to fuel your upgrades. But if you aren't actually using whale bone, or bone charms, there really isn't much in the way of motivation to go explore the maps. Usually the only reason you go off the beaten path, is because you picked up your lover's heart, pointed it around, and saw "....ooh! There are 2 whale bones that way, AND a bone charm!!" so you go off to encounter whatever challenge is over there. And run the risk of having to actually cause harm to the denizens of Dunwal. But....if you don't embrace the temptation of the Outsider, to "be interesting", to go and try and find resources to make you more powerful, you really have no need to even bother. You can actually navigate the maps towards your actual TARGET, incredibly easy, with just the single rank of Blink. And since you aren't actively engaging with 80% of the map, or it's denizens....you can easily get a low chaos, no death, no detection result for each map. Because why bother? You're here to take out your target....nothing else. The rest of the neighborhood never even needs to know you were near, because you weren't.
So the temptation to become stronger, in itself, the drive to obtain the resources the game tempts you with, is another layer of moral/ethical checks on the player. Will you go mess with these people just to accumulate wealth and power? Do you really need it? I'm sure you WANT it...the temptation is there but....is it needed? And the answer is....no, it really isn't.
The first playthrough of Dishonored, I got both the Ghost and Clean Hands achievement. When I did my second playthrough to get Mostly Flesh and Steel, I thought it was going to be a frustrating slog of save scumming, and endless frustration to complete. But no joke, it was the EASIEST run I had of the whole game. Missions were super short, super direct, super focused. The only way it was difficult, is if I strayed from my objective, to try and gain wealth and power.
What I really like about the high chaos playthrough is the letters you read heavily imply that part of the reason they poison Corvo is because of all the damage he caused. Even though the current regime was illegal and the revolution was just, all the people that Corvo killed parlament would hang them all as war criminals. So Essentially in high chaos Corvos poisoning is his own doing. You could even argue them turning on each other is too because hey they turned on one of their own why not the others?
I think that the moment I understood dishonored or at least the dishonored series was one of my favourite of all time was when I took an entire hour finding out by pure logic what the jindosh lock solution was instead of doing the entire level, I knew that I could do the level both killing everyone or knocking them out, or being spotted or sneaky, but the fact that I didn’t need to do any part of the level but use my brain in one room instead of the rest of the map made me enjoy the game all the more
I also believe these games mastered something that I absolutely adore in games. Anger. Hate. This game makes you hate people. It makes you angry. It gives you time to connect to something before tearing it away. The betrayal halfway through the game is a perfect example. The anger and hatred the game filled me with after that moment was extraordinary. There's a reason to do high chaos and that reason isn't because it's easier, but because your angry. You're pissed off at the world and believe no one connected to these people deserve to live. Your angry and you hate these people. And that is such a fun way to experience a story.
I recently replayed Dishonored and I was surprised at how well it held up, and your video was an excellent way to wrap up my Dishonored replay. Cheers mate!
Smooth movement and a unique art style really give the game a bit of a timeless feel, I think. I'm glad you enjoyed!
@@ThaneBishop The way the graphical style evokes the idea of a painting, rather than attempting to mimic a photograph of the real world the way most games do, mean that it will never feel dated any more than an oil painting would, I do believe.
Combined with the deep branching narrative you've explored so well in this video, I feel that it will always hold up.
This was amazing. I've never played Dishonored but I loved your passion behind this. Keep it up.
I really appreciate you taking the gamble on a 30 minute video for a game you haven't played, and I'm even more thrilled that you enjoyed it. Thank you so much!
The pre-Deathloop games by Arkane are gems, if you ever get a chance I think you should try them! (And everyone else honestly!)
My x lover best friend and baby momma Jennifer Christine lamprecht, Isabelle Christina whomever she is I miss her terribly . I must also apologize to Natasha Pawliuk for breaking my other best friends heart ❤️ , are triangle has left me feeling dread as if both parties are currently in horrible condition and or being abused.
Jennifer Christine lamprecht will always be my baby momma and a true love, Natasha Pawliuk will always be my first real love.
Every day I feel like a spectre splitting into eternity from the book Four Zoas by William Blake, horrible agony as we split into eternity.
My x Jennifer Christine lamprecht, was friends with a coyote from mexico and has a best friend James , she's rumored to be with a killer called Kyle.
I worried her worst nightmare of dying alone could become a reality I said I'd never let that happen even if she hates my guts , it's my word.
I know I'm a few months late but I see you hearting new comments so here goes. Excellent video mate, perfectly reflects my own feelings on the game. It's one of the best games ever made in my opinion, and I replay it regularly and got all the achievements.
I've seen a lot of people criticize the chaos system, saying that the game gives you all these fun powers but using them gives you the bad ending, and that this is bad design. I find this to be a very shallow understanding that entirely misses the point. That point being that yes, power is fun, and killing is easy, but showing restraint and care is the more difficult but ultimately the right option. You said that the game's world will mirror your own respect for life and that's a perfect way to put it.
A few minor things I want to add that I feel are worth mentioning: one, in the Lady Boyle mission, you can as you said search for clues for which one is your target, and then either take her out or give her to her stalker. But there is another option that is much easier, as you don't need to hunt for clues: You can simply take out all 3 ladies. Rampaging through the party is not difficult, but it's even possible to wait for all 3 to be close to each other and kill them simultaneously with a time stop. Do with that information as you will.
The second thing is Daud's DLC story. In my opinion, it ties the whole package together like a ribbon. Here we have a man who already cut a path of destruction and regrets his life, wants to do one good thing before his past catches up to him, and by your choices he can either redeem himself, or go out in a blaze of glory. Your chaos determines if Billie betrays you and if Corvo kills or spares you at the end. And if he kills you, the last thing you see as you're falling is the statue of the Empress.
At the risk of sounding pretentious, when people talk about the Chaos system "ruining the fun", I can't help but feel like those people just didn't connect with the idea that Dishonored is not a normal game; it's essentially a sort of litmus test. And it's okay to not enjoy that kind of game, but to say that the main function and identity of the game ruins the game is a bit past the point. It's a bit akin to saying that having to fight all the big monsters in Monster Hunter ruins Monster Hunter.
One character that always comes to mind when I think about the powers you hold over others and what you do with them is Terry Pratchett's "Granny Weatherwax" one of the most powerful witches to have ever lived.
For good or evil reasons, when you have power and use it to control others, even if it is for their own good, you take away their choice.
As the quote from one of the books she is in goes
"You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it is just a cage."
And from another book
Granny: "And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That is what sin is."
Pastor Oats: "It's a lot more complicated than that-"
Granny: "No. It ain't. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts."
Pastor Oats: "Oh, I'm sure there are worse crimes-"
Granny: "But they starts with thinking about people as things..."
A thing is something you control, manipulate, and alter for YOUR preference... The best way to deal with power when you have it is to let it not be used at all. It is often a recurring theme in the Discworld books.
Dishonored is my favorite game of all specifically for reasons like this! The diversity in play and story between runs, even in little background details means the world to me! My first run was as the wind took me, killing where I felt it was needed or deserved, but calm when I could, and I think I barely sneaked out the good ending. My second run was for the "mostly flesh and steel" achievement, and I cut down all obstacles in my path like a trained killer, powers or no. Finally my last run before I moved to other games was a clean hands/ghost run, where I even made a point to put those who I knocked unconscious into soft positions like beds or chairs. It was fascinating to really get into corvo's head in that run, since those aren't just goons, they're his wife and daughter's subjects, they're his co-workers as guards of the regency, and they're the men who killed his wife, who still deserve mercy.... Great video all around and I think I'm going to go play through the series again now!
To this day, Clean Hands Dishonored 1 playthrough was some of the best fun I've had in the stealth genre.
Is "clean hands" no killing or no killing and no detections?
@@ashtonpeterson4618clean hands no killing. Ghost no detections.
@@ashtonpeterson4618I played through the whole game only to miss that if you put a sleeping guard in the dumpster next to the door in prison, the bomb kills them.
@@Mepharias That sucks!
Do both if you're good.
Do both with no powers if you're god.
If nobody can stop then my goal is to be unstoppable, unseen and unknown. A ghost without equal. Invisible helping hand of luck. A charitable god in disguise. Not a rumour, but a whisper, not a secret, but a hazy dream.
Sad, that there the game hasn't a reaction if you stay fully ghost by making, so that your wanted posters are blank. Who had seen my mask? Who can truly say they even had a chance to look under that hood?
I mean, High Chaos, direct combat Dishonored is almost a different game and it is always my second playthrough, just to see how much suffering I can industrialize. Dishonored 2 was far better at this with my bloodfly farms. Ah, good times.
Don't get it how some players went all Rembo on the Dunwall's inhabitants and were surprised to get a bad ending. It wasn't *bad* ending. It was a fair ending to what they have started in the game.
But my canon ending is one of patience, obscurity and mercy.
Within the limitations that the game gives you it only works best with Daud. I didn't know about a little cut scene after fighting Daud, where you can spare him. I never have fought him. He'd never seen Corvo.
He lives because I will it, because Corvo allows it.
In my first playthrough, I tried my best to be sneaky and I was low-chaos through it all up to and including the Lord Regent mission. I genuinely thought it was gonna be over and I was a little disappointed that that was gonna be it. Then the Betrayal happened. I still love the line from the Outsider; "Strange how there's always a little more innocence left to lose." when you go under from the poison. I definitely felt pretty jaded and disillusioned with the chaos system. It felt pointless and I let my gameplay reflect that. I just killed everyone in sight, because who even cares anymore, right? And then Daud, of all people, had the nerve to ask for mercy and to remind me there was still A Choice with every action taken. It was just perfect. The Flooded District is the most brutal, hopeless level design and it was easy to give into that, and then there were the survivors. Some were crushed, some were still fighting for every inch of hope. As if to ask which one Corvo falls under.
Thank you for this video. It was very entertaining and it actually hit a lot of points I had vaguely thought about but never really pinned down for myself, so this was superb. I'd be really curious to see what you make of the Daud DLC's and his role in DotO, too. I always thought his character growth between the two/three games was very intriguing as he never quite seemed to take to it, despite going most of the way.
Hi hi, I was sent this by a really good friend and it got both of us thinking hard. Mostly about how we would act if *we* were given such immense power that nobody can truly stop us.
(for the record I have not played Dishonored 1, I couldn't have afforded it, and I only played through the first 60 minutes of Dishonored 2)
At about the 10-15 minute mark (well I said it first at the 3 minute mark but re-affirmed it at the 10-15) I said that I would be horribly violent and I would shatter the world that dared to harm me so cruelly. That I would see it all burn and that I am just NOT a good person at all. I went through the entire video wondering if I would have done anything differently than a High Chaos Corvo and... the answer was "No, No I would not."
But then you got to the ending of the game and reminded me that Corvo was doing this not only for Revenge, but for Emily too. And.. that reframes things drastically. I re-evaluated the entire game through the lens of "I need to Save Emily, these are the choices I have to make in the meantime... Can I look her in the eyes after having done *all* of that cruelty and wanton destruction, and tell her to not do what I did? To be *better* than me?"
The answer to that was an emphatic "No, No I cannot do all that, I need to lead by example if I am to expect her to be better than me."
Who am I when there is *nobody* who can stop me? I *think* I have my answer. It depends on if I am alone, or trying to do good for others. If I am alone, there is a very very strong chance I will burn everything down around me in a fit of blind rage and desire to lash out. If I am not alone, if I have loved ones who I care about, and they care about me in return, then I will work and strive to use my powers for the betterment of everybody that I am able to.
Of course I am not able to find out for certain since I am nothing but baseline human with above average strength. Thanks for the video it really got me to think hard on my own personal morals. =^w^=
I had a different experience with dishonored 1.
It gave me the power to right wrongs and choose to try to do the right thing. I could shatter the glasses instead of swapping them because I knew I would still be able to swoop in and deal with the consequences if things went wrong. I didn't need to be pragmatic or take the easier path for fear of failing. Nobody could stop me from forcibly trying to make things go better.
The best part about the outsider is his mark, in my opinion. It always looked to me like a bit of a compass rose, even with a tiny "N" for "North" on the top end (when you stand normally, with your hand down, it points up, but interestingly its just barely skewed, a subtle reflection of his motivations). In my mind, it was always a little joke to the Outsider that he gives you a "moral compass" but then lets you define what is "moral".
There's definitely some ties with the overseers and a commentary on organized religion. The Overseers want to define morality for the people, but the Outsider likes to strip people of societal definitions of morality, power, status, and even mortality. Then, he likes to see what an individual in various circumstances will do with this freedom to define for themselves what these things mean.
thats a really cool interesting way to look at it
Dishonored is easily in my top 3 favorite gaming series of all time. The stealth gameplay is incredible, the story is intriguing, and the morality system is damn near perfect in my eyes. I can't help but go out of my way to always do a Ghost/Clean Hands run, not just for the extra challenge of it, but because for me personally, it just feels the best to me. I have endless tools and powers to tear the city apart, I'm unquestionably the apex predator even on an ontological level thanks to the Outsider. But I use the heart to hear people's stories. I stay out of sight to not cause unnecessary fear to those who don't deserve it. I go out of my way to aid those in need, even when it is out of my way.
At the same time, I don't extend grace to those that ruined me and my family. I can forgive the guard that's doing their duty with the facts they have at the time, or the terrified citizen that only knows what is fed to them, but I will destroy those who framed me, used me and thought they could get away with it with no consequences.
It's endlessly satisfying to complete the low chaos ending with no kills, because it proves that I am the better man in every possible criteria to those that wronged me.
I feel like Dishonored's ethical messages and themes probably would have come through a lot better for me if there were no nonlethal options. As it stands, what is the difference between stabbing someone and choking him out? What is the difference between shooting someone with a crossbow bolt and a sleep dart? Not much, besides the nonlethal options have less fun animations, and that small sacrifice on your part is supposed to mean you give a shit.
Suppose instead that you only have lethal options, but are still encouraged to let your foes live. Now the player is in a situation where if they don't want to be a murderer, they have to avoid the enemy entirely, as violence will always lead to an undesirable outcome, no matter who wins. The player has to actively make the game harder in order to keep their hands clean, and even then may find themselves in a situation where they have to kill an innocent person in self defense.
Dishonored is a fantastic game, don't get me wrong, but as far as the gameplay goes, the only functional difference between being a murderer and not is what crossbow ammo you click on, and I think that's kind of a missed opportunity.
Great video btw. You have a lot of potential as a video essayist!
Honestly, I think you make some great points. I think Dishonored has my personal favorite use of a morality system in games, but it also came out, what, 11 years ago? And it shows. I love how much the system made me think about the rest of the game, but I also can't not think about how much further the system could be pushed if made today.
Thank you so much for the support!
I would respectfully disagree wrt the idea of making nonlethal options require effort since it would contradict the thesis. Both lethal and nonlethal require similar amounts of effort, the difference is in the kind of person you are (or at least have chosen to be this playthrough) when you make the decision.
The idea is that you have unchecked and uncheckable power. If you decide to be a bad guy, no good guys can stop you. If you decide to be a good guy, no bad guys can stop you. The world and circumstances don't factor into it. The world will in fact change to align with the choices you make.
Not saying I wouldn't mod the game to make a good ending take more effort. I love games where "you work hard for a happy ending and are rewarded". It's just that for the sake of the thesis of "who are you when nobody can stop you" having both options require similar effort fit perfectly.
Edit: tldr - if being good requires no effort than why wouldn't you? To bring in a meme. Returning or leaving a shopping cart requires no effort and incurs no consequence one way or the other so what do you do?
@@ScriptedviolinceThe situation presented in Dishonored is much more complex than returning a shopping cart back to its original spot. Yet, the morality system in the game fails to capture this complexity.
The way I see it is that the game imposes on you how you should behave in a situation where you have been defamed to be considered "good".
Being a good guy equals not killing a lot of people on your way to achieve your goals, the game says.
But it directly contradicts the idea that you are given the power to decide what is the right thing to do in this particular circumstances as Corvo.
The game already knows what's okay to do and what's not.
Sure, you can leave a trail of bodies behind you but the game will punish you for that and complain about it every step of the way.
So, you get to decide if robbing and killing others to further your goals of ending tyranny and saving your daughter is morally okay...
but c'mon dude, we all know it's not okay ;>
In a way, you get to be the judge and make the decisions only for the game to become the judge later on. And this judge follows only one rule:
kill = bad
not kill = good
It's simplistic. Too simplistic for my taste
@@Teisho_ "So, you get to decide if robbing and killing others to further your goals of ending tyranny and saving your daughter is morally okay..."
You don't. That's the point of the game.
The idea isn't that all killing is always wrong - you can beat the game by killing only your main targets and still get the good ending.
The core point of chaos system isn't to entertain some idea of le gray morality - it's to teach you that actions have consequences, that slaughtering countless people will inevitably lead to more suffering and decay. Slaughtering civilians because they stand in your way or due to your recklessness is morally wrong, even if your main goal is to overthrow tyranny and save your daughter.
It is simplistic, because there is no real "complex" way to spin it - a man with a godlike powers should always take the path of restraint, because otherwise, people will die. And the less restraint he is showing, the more people will die. Some ridiculous moral relativism will only weaken the message and turn the game from a powerful story about power and responsibility into a post-modern edgefest.
@@malcolm4737but the systems complexity goes against the idea that actions have consequences by causing only certain actions to have consequences. If you steal some money from someone poor, their chance to die grow drastically, but I don't believe the game treats it as such. Where are the consequences here?
Dishonored is one of the only games I ever replayed at the hardest difficulty, one of the only games I came back to for the challenge of a perfect run. Mostly Flesh and Steel, where you use and buy no powers beyond blink (Because unlike Dishonored 2 you can't choose to deny the Outsider's gift and blink is actually necessary); Shadow, where you're never seen; Clean Hands, where you complete the game not just never taking a life but also preventing a number of other murders from taking place, because even deaths that aren't your fault still accumulate chaos; And of course, Ghost and Poetic Justice, a combination of the other two. It took me weeks of playing, and thousands of save scums (Seriously getting out of the flooded district without being seen is SUCH A NIGHTMARE).But I did it, and it's still one of my proudest achievements in gaming.
This game is beautiful in its writing and execution
Blink isn't necessary. As a self-imposed challenge I encourage you to a blinkless run.
@@tyranmcgrathmnkklkl it's necessary in one or two unavoidable void areas, but other than that I did avoid it when possible
@@tyranmcgrathmnkklkl a person did a no powers, equipment, kills, detections, or knockouts run and 2 blinks are required outside the blink tutorial I believe. One to exit the hole in the flooded district and one at the start of return to the tower
As someome who has played Dishonored for years. This is by and far the most amazing and intropsective perspective I have ever seen someone put on the Chaos and morality system of these games. It makes them while hard to work with for gameplay, fantastically introspective for what happens to people who get unlimited power and treated wrong by societu
20:12
She actually escapes the stalker if you give her to him, and she has her own shop in Dishonored 2 in one of the first areas, right before the asylum transition
This was an amazing watch, brilliant video. I've played dishonoured and its sequel many times and seen many videos covering it but none have done something quite like this.
Thank you.
17:40 Here it's important to note that it never was moral vs immoral, it's chaos vs order. Branding him does not disrupt the operation of society as much as killing him.
Wow. Just incredible work. Dishonored was my first ever “favorite” game when I was too young to even understand media at the surface level, let alone so deeply. Thank you for giving me inspiration in the quality with which I should approach my analyses and for the joy, of getting to live through Dunwall again through your work.
i love this idea. "what'd you do when nothing can stop you, but yourself?" i need more media like this, for i am now addicted to an idea i didn't even know excised until half an hour ago
2:55 bro over here, making me question my whole gaming history
Just discovered your channel through my recommendations, absolutely brilliant videos! Am looking forward to the next already!
Wait, I understood !!! Outsider is an ingame avatar of us, the player, we can make any character powerful with snap of a finger and we don't care if they're good or bad, the only thing a character played by the player should be... is entertaining.
An important part of proving corvo innocent (for me) it's not being the person he was rumored to be. Not a killer, not a violent shadow, not the thing that goes bump in the night. If I bring corvo his life and freedom and reveal the truth, but I'm doing so make him the man the rumors said, what have I really accomplished? Surely, not redemption.
Alright, so, I’ve only watched this video from you so far, but, firstly, what I have seen is excellent. This is great content, and the fact that it only has close to 30,000 views disappoints me greatly. Still, much better that it has 30,000 than 300, but regardless, I really hope for its, along with this channels, success and growth, as it is greatly deserved.
Having said that, I thought I’d go ahead and dump out my thoughts on this subject. Not particularly because I feel they’re notable, but because this brought me back to thinking about things quite a bit.
A small side note, I think people underestimate just how wide reaching the Chaos system is in Dishonored 1. In Dishonored 2, it is essentially just a kill meter. But in 1, stuff like how many times you’ve been seen affects it. You can reach high chaos by being constantly caught by guards. Is it effectively impossible to do so? Absolutely. But it’s a lot more than just a kill under 20% and you’re a good guy.
Let’s start with my playthroughs of this game. This game was easily my favorite game for a few years, and I’ve done hundreds. And yet, in the vast majority, I play as what I believe to be a generally moral ghost. More specifically, I tend to avoid all guards I can, with a few exceptions. Those who harass people I generally find innocent (Griff, Elsa, Lady with the art dealers key. Elsa in particular I believe to be innocent, since we never actually see proof, and I’m generally distrusting of religious orders accusing people of being witches.) get knocked out.
The only people I really kill are my targets. I almost always swap the wine, I simply stab the Pendleton’s, I sedate and then kill Lady Boyle, and I kill the Lord Regent, followed by releasing his audio log. I generally avoid Daud, as I consider the DLC canon, and when I play as him, I try to atone. And finally, the loyalists are all killed.
In truth, I generally choose to do so for the simple fact that I don’t believe in fates worse than death. Between the options we’re given, I think it’s best to just end my targets while they’re living the high life, rather than let them fall.
In particular, I don’t think Lady Boyle even deserves the pain of a conscious death. Sure, she’s a noblewoman who is ignoring the plight of the people around her so she can enjoy herself, but, quite frankly, I think it’s hypocritical to act as if were any better.
Our world has plenty of people suffering, and yet the vast vast majority of people who play video games aren’t out there helping. Plenty of us have the methods to, we have the ability to help. And yet we don’t, and why is that? Because we like where we live, we like the life we live, we don’t want to give up our luxuries for the sake of people we don’t know, and likely never will know.
And so sure, she ties to those who fucked us over, but quite frankly, I don’t think it’s enough of one, nor do I think her actions are so totally unreasonable that she deserves either a violent death or life in horrific conditions.
But that’s the thing about dishonored. It poses a question on the surface level, but oddly enough, I think it actually misses its mark with me. More specifically, I don’t think I’m the right kind of person to be asked the question, since it isn’t really one for me.
There’s a reason why despite my dozens of playthroughs of New Vegas, I have joined Caesar’s Legion 3 times, and each only for achievements.
Simply enough, in a world where being an asshole takes just as much, if not more effort than being good, why not just be good? More than that, even if it takes more effort, good should always be strived for.
Maybe I’m just basic. Hell, my favorite god damn superhero is Superman, for the express point of his absolute sense of righteousness, his unwillingness to do bad (Don’t even get me started on Injustice, it’s as bad of a misread of his character as the whole ‘Batman doesn’t kill because if he did he wouldn’t stop.’ Which, tangent, but that’s not fucking it, he doesn’t kill because he has belief in the absolute sanctity of human life. That’s it. It’s not that he’s holding himself back, or anything like that. Sure, he might have doubts, but if he ever went through with it, I don’t believe for a single moment that the real Batman would just fucking go crazy.), that all is what makes Superman so enjoyable in my opinion. That he’s the Paragon of good. He will always do what’s right, even with godlike power.
So, when Dishonored poses a question in the vein of ‘Does Absolute Power Corrupt Absolutely’, I have to say that it doesn’t. Those who let power corrupt them aren’t actually being corrupted. They’re being held back by their worry of punishment, nothing else. They aren’t, at least in my opinion, actually moral, but rather, simply feigning it for any number of reasons.
But, I think that’s one of the great things about Dishonored. That on the surface level, it seems to point towards the idea that power corrupts. It’s the major theme of all of its antagonists.
And yet, you can prove that saying wrong. You can be the change you want in the world, the person with power who doesn’t let the world get worse. Who doesn’t just see everyone else doing bad things, and so thinks it’s okay.
Dishonored lets you have all that power, and then rewards you for the good you do, if not mechanically, then emotionally.
Civilization was built on empathy, on helping your fellow man, built on us working together, and so pretty clearly, it fucking works. We’re a planet spanning civilization that, if not completely uniform, still have some amount of connection. The good you do makes an impact, just as much as the bad.
And I think the greatest take away I’ve had from my time with Dishonored, is that it’s worth the effort to be good.
You are very, very quickly becoming one of my favourite video essayists on TH-cam. Exceptional work. Your topic selection is so, so interesting
Guy Gavriel Kay is an amazing writer and I was thrilled to hear you mention him. I love he sometimes zooms out from the main narrative to either follow a minor character or to tell us how, later, historians and philosophers will view and debate this event.
He puts the lie to "show don't tell" by telling wonderful stories wonderfully.
I found this interesting, and made me feel a bit better about myself. My first blind playthrough I did my best to Ghost missions without killing... except the primary targets. In my mind, no only was my *job* to kill them, but I could find little to no redeeming qualities for them and the targets continued existence was a threat to everything the late Empress stood for. I rarely if ever found the kind of proof to make a judgement like that for the rank-and-file, and besides, the others in the loyalists were the Judge and Jury, I was just the Executioner, even if I was still exercising my best judgement against the targets.
Only killing the targets still gets you Low Chaos doesn't it? I was under the impression it did.
@@Calvin_Coolage - Yes, it is still firmly Low Chaos
@@Verbose_Mode Like right after I made my reply to you the video said as much too lol. I never knew it would count for Clean Hands and Ghost though, good to know when I play again.
how have I not heard of this channel before? This Video is sooo good, you have definetely earned a subscriber here.
With a game like this, one that gives you a bunch of sneaking and killing tools and lets you choose how to use, it makes me wonder if you'll ever touch on the Thief or Hitman series, and perhaps the "power fantasy" of stealth games. In Thief games the goal is get in, steal us much as possible without ever getting noticed, and get out. The "Ghost" play through where you leave no trace you were there. In Hitman there's the idea that Agent 47 kills his targets, and *only* his targets, without anyone knowing he was there and in ways that make it look like accidents, and the thrill is basically living up to his standards.
In Dishonored, as you mention, the idea is "who are you when there is nothing anyone can do to stop you?" In games like Hitman and Thief I think the idea is "what do you do when you're *told* the correct way to do something, but given the freedom to do things your own way?" And then of course there's the general stealth power fantasy of instead of being too strong for anyone to stop, it's instead being equal or lesser than your enemies in terms of strength but being able to render your enemies' strength meaningless through wit and skill.
3:15 Jokes on you, I am such a sucker for ethical philosophy that my first ever run was a no-kill no-detection playthrough.
My main gripe with the chaos system is that it kinda stips away the choice from the player, as it's obvious what the game considers "good" and what "bad". It's like when your mom tells you that "you may want to clean you room" - technically you have a choice, but we all know what you should do. The high chaos ending is undisputably bad, and the low chaos ending is undisputably good.
The real test for player's character would be if power in the game worked just like power irl - there's no karma, nothing is stopping you from using your power on others, the ending you get doesn't depend on some invisible morality meter being high or low. There are actions and there are consequences, I don't like the idea of trying to put everything on a black and white scale, especially if the white is easily the better side for everyone in all scenarios.
The way you speak, your script writing, and your video editing have made me an immediate fan of your content and this game, both of which I’ve never heard of before today 👏🏼
you ever think about how Jessamine's heart is a literal Telltale Heart?
5:55 blacking out the murder after saying this was a stroke of genius editing. The only way it could have been better is hard cutting to sam and not showing the body
I fucking love your videos man these are some favorite essays I’ve heard about gaming in a while man
15:10 something else we know, that makes this even more complex, is that the abbey’s definition of “evidence” can be as simple as “a sworn overseer said so”. So that evidence could have been proof she was a witch, or it could have been bullshit.
A BIG thing that no one seems to see is that "Who are you when you can't be stopped" And "Who are you when no one is looking" is the same question. When no one is there to care your power is uncheckable.
I think there is a slight but noticeable difference between the two and to conflate them is a disservice to those who watch. In the situation that "no one is watching" there is nothing at all to stop you, in the situation that "no one can stop you" to do evil is all the more dastardly, as you deny humanity to those who stand in your way, you subjugate their wants to yours, and ultimately you deny their personhood.
In summation, they're only the same to those who would do evil when no one can stop them.
@@julieta6138 there's also the possibility that you *can't* do something regardless of if someone's watching or not, and the second may give you the power to do that thing
Bloody great analysis. Ever since playing this game 14 years ago I've found it hard to put into words what you have in this video. Well done.
Damn... That was a good video. Anyways YO WATCH THIS KNIFEDUNK OFF KALDWIN'S BRIDGE!
But fr I never knew about the beginning dialogue once you escape or most of the things mentioned. I've never seen a video that made me think about a game other than "I've been wronged, someone helps and anyone else who stands in my way will die by my hand."
"Who are you when no one can stop you?"
Not a simple question by any means. But, to answer in brief: a flawed individual trying to be a good person. A monster seeking to do what's right. And, I hope, able to save the world from itself.
All I want is the means to make the misery stop. For all of us.
Amazing video bro, keep it up!
Remembering how in Disco Elysium so many people said the only thing stopping them from being abusive monsters was the fact that Detective Kim would be disappointed in them. That game was also a really good example of that.
Dishonored was a great experience. I did have a bad habit of saving and replaying a mission like 4-5 times lol. Never played the second.
Honestly, I even own the second game; just never done anything with it. It even looks really well put together, but any time I watch to play a game like it, I just replay Dishonored.
@@ThaneBishopI’ve played and enjoyed both. The second game does a lot more for non-lethal players. More dedicated gadgets for KOs. You can also KO by parrying. Corvo feels like Batman.
@@ThaneBishop Should def play it, it's a really solid game
I went into your video expecting to hear things I've heard already (I'm starved for Dishonored content, so I'm watching every video I can find). What I did not expect to come away with is book recommendations. I'll be checking out Guy Gavriel Kay as soon as my next Audible credit drops.
i think dishonoured in many ways is the opposite extreme on the Ludonarrative Dissonance debate as games like uncharted, tomb raider etc. A game were killing most defineately has an affect on the story, on your character and every other character. but in my opinion it still fails narratviely and gameplay wise, the chaos system does nothing to justify why saving the scientist doesnt cure the plague in high chaos, why does a sheltered princess draw her father differently, act differently. more important for me, the game offers you one of the most satisfying and complex combat systems and then throws it away with 90% stealth for a good mission outcome. The game ramfists patience and waiting instead of bumrushing but doesnt make that patience fun, the rewards of low chaos are too low, the story too shallow for an actual moral debate.
Wow, what a lovely piece of work. It's been a some while since I played the first game, but I've never heard someone so deftly articulate what made this game so special to myself and so many others.
Whenever someone complains that this game punishes them for ‘having fun’, I disregard their opinion because they clearly miss the point. Being good isn’t fun. In real life, being good means putting effort into benefitting others. Most of the time, said actions to benefit others is monotonous or dull. If being a good person is fun, it would defeat the message of the game. The message, that being good takes effort and patience. That if you take the ‘easy’ way out, the ‘fun’ route, then it means you would succumb to the lure of misusing power. Absolute power doesn’t corrupt absolutely, it simply enables. Doing things the right way, for a right cause is and always will be extremely difficult and extremely tedious. Why do you think so many people justify using bad means to do good things? Because it is easier. Because it is simpler. Cause it’s very easy to say ‘for the greater good’ while condemning others for that purpose. A truly good person? Wouldn’t make that sacrifice. Would work hard, would put in countless effort to make sure that nobody suffers for the sake of other’s wellbeing. In this game, your actions matter. It reflects how you view the world. Will you take the easy way out? Slaughter everything that stands in your way? Or will you tough out the monotony and dullness for the sake of a better world?
Being good is fun.
It isnt EASY, and it CAN be unpleasent in the short term.
But yes, it is fun.
@@charlesatanasioNot really, to be true good you have to put others first. Upon doing so, your own wellbeing and even enjoyment would often be sacrificed. This huge requirement of dedication and discipline is the reason why true good is rarer than even previous gemstones and special metals. Because ultimately the path of utopia is paved in blood, where a truly good person would use their own instead of sacrificing others.
@@Jgamer-jk1bp How would that be true good?
Seriously "you are only good if you get nothing out of it and you hate yourself" has to be the most hypocritical self-hating viewpoint you can have. Shut up.
@@charlesatanasio You are purposely misreading and misrepresenting my statement to make my point seem evil. If you wish to continue this conversation I would advise you to not pull off this kind of bullshit. If you really don’t like my statement you have the prime choice to do this; Fuck off and don’t response. Or even better, don’t even read it and simply leave. If this isn’t clear enough, here’s something that you cannot misinterpret no matter how much you warp my words;
Shut the fuck up.
I wanted a nice and clean discussion on philosophy and people like you are why we can’t have nice things. Since you respond to me with such hostility, I’ll do the same.
When no one can stop me. I will do just as I do when no one can stop me when I'm maxed out in a multiplayer video game.
I'd help out the young folks, deal with bullies and make life a better experience for everyone, conveniently.
Finally, some good shit.
I personal philosophy when it comes to power is this:
If you have the power to help people, and it would cost you almost nothing to do, then therefore you should be obligated to help.
As for absolute power, for good or bad anyone with it would eventually become authoritarian, enforcing their will on everyone.
Are you saturo gojo because you are the strongest? or are you the strongest because you are saturo gojo?
I first found you from your first video a year ago back when you only had around 300 subscribers and then kind of forgot until now, it's really nice to see how much this channel has grown
The first time i played this game I was convinced that the outsider was Johnny Depp. The tone of his voice to the way he dressed he kind of looked like johnny did in dark shadows. I thought that if they ever made a live action dishonored movie Johnny Depp would be the obvious choice for the outsider. A lot less likely now and despite all the controversy, I still have his face in my head cannon whenever I see the outsider.
I love that I'm watching this as someone who refuses to do a high chaos playthrough because the only characters I want to truly punish are the ones responsible for making the mess in the first place. I don't even kill them. The low chaos options are so much more terrible for them.
That was a good one
This video is a masterpiece! You single handedly made me fall in love with Dishonored again. You showed a depth to me I never even realized existed having not completed a low chaos run. Inspired by your video, I played through the game twice in a couple of days, feeling like teenager again, not being able to lay down the controller. Thank you for this video, it had a profound effect on me
I've never met anyone more determined to flip off the algorithm, the only way you could do it more intensely would be having AI Trump spout badspeak for the first 30 seconds.
I love this video from concept to execution. And if you want to host a guest tape about Night City while you talk about games, leave a comment here.
Always good to hear from you. I'll bite, let me know what you're thinking
@@ThaneBishop Instant pitch is a history of the American collapse, ended with:
"And the only way to stop an evil man with a fascist megacorporation is a Woman with a fascist megacorporation."
Honestly.... I never did play a high chaos run. In this game you are never the hero. You are right hand of Justice or Wrath. You simply get to pick your poison. I liked to choose the side of justice.