I've seen countless screenshots of a NASCAR rule book that states that if a driver goes off track or uses an access road but DOES NOT gain an advantage/position as a result, NASCAR can choose not to administer the penalty. This to me indicates that it's clear that there is a penalty for cutting the course in any way if you gain an advantage. And just from a logical point there is not a single racing series in the world where that would be considered a legal move to go unpenalized. Common sense says the penalty must be given in some way. In IndyCar they may even just force them to drop back positions on the track rather than force a stop and go etc... I dont know why this is so confusing or controversial. If people were doing it all day Saturday and Sunday and gaining advantages and NASCAR wasn't doing anything about it then that's on them and they should be called out for getting it wrong.
Fernando Alonso Austrian grand prix last year. Not only did he do the same thing, he did it after complaining drivers could gain advantage & if it wasn't addressed he'd do it on purpose.
he was already beat going into the corner by every car to his inside. if there wasn't an escape, he'd of just had to give up track position. he used it to at least maintain/arguably gain position
Sunday morning if you watched the formula 1 race. They had the same type of access road if you blew the corner. They put 4 temp walls put up so they had to zig zag threw the run off. They had it timed so you didnt have to stop. But if you went fast threw there you still couldnt get back on track faster. Nascar just needs to put some barriers to make them have to slow down. But not stop. And the problems taken care of it. You all just looking into it to much. Nascar dropped the ball again!!!!!
Simple as that. Give them the access road for instances exactly like Ross and Jr are arguing. Which is “they were 4 wide to my inside, there’s no chance I never would have made the corner.” But also make sure that access road is much slower to navigate than the actual track route. That HAS to be the answer. It’s okay to have a back up plan to avoid cars from bottling up and destroying each other, but the back up plan can’t be quicker than the damn track. Put up barriers to swerve through. Something.
Exactly! NASCAR could learn a whole lot from F1. The run off areas in F1 and the bollards they set up, the barriers, is what nascar should have done for that access road. Ross chastain was docked the points because he gained a competitive advantage using the access road. Another F1 rule NASCAR should implement is the exceeding track limits. Some of these guys were 25 yards or more off track in several turns. Staying within track limits shows driving skills. A dead start at the beginning of a race would be exciting as well.
Ross said F-this well in advance. He took a chance that there would be a huge wreck at the turn and NASCAR would give him a pass. He gambled...and it nearly paid off.
Yup. The reality of the situation is that this is a result of NASCAR's playoff format. Once you win a race, you can basically be checkers or wreckers at the end of every race. A win is worth 5 points in the first stage of the Chase. That's literally the difference between 5th and 10th in points.
Dennis did it at least once and no penalty. I think Ross was wrong to think he could actually do that and be considered the leader, but Nascar was stupid and not consistent as usual on their judgment calls
NASCAR stated in the driver’s meeting that if you took the access road in that turn, you had to stop at the designated stop and go spot in another turn.
Its ingrained in my so I can say I quit .. but I won't quit keeping up with it.. Too many good people, and I just can't.. so I won't tell that lie.. I DO ABREE THAT THE INCONSISTENT GARBAGE IS UTTERLY STUPID .. IT MAKES THE POWERS THAT BE IN SUITS LOOK LIKE TOTAL IDIOTS. I HAVE TO RELEARN 500 "RULE CHANGES" AND POINTS GIMMICKS EVERY SINGLE YEAR.. also if a driver wants to fist fight.. Shouldn't they be REQUIRED TO TAKE OFF THEIR DAMN HELMET!? HOW can the driver who took his off have a chance.. I HATE THAT (lil baby Gibbs did it awhile back).. you wanna throw a punch at someone who has no helmet after walking 50 yards to them WITH A HELMET ON.. that's such a woosie move.. Wish they'd try that at my local track.. ha!
@@ethanweeter2732 no he's about a car length behind the leader before entering the turn and side by side after taking the access road. That's not 30 seconds. Idk where NASCAR came up with that lol
This call reminds of me what NASCAR used to say back in the early days which was 'not in the spirit of the rules'. That's a position that is so vague and gray that it is the perfect official position hold in order to make any call one way or another. :)
On Door Bumper Clear, Denny Hamlin even kinda defended Ross’ move. He said he was glad Ross did it first, because he was gonna try it, and if NASCAR made anyone stop one the access road before continuing, they would still come out ahead rather than go through turn 1. This track configuration is and always will be a disaster.
I'm way with Mike on this one. I would say he was trying to brake just long enough to make it look like he was trying to make the corner or maybe to not hit the guy in front of him. 90% of his plan was to take the joker lane. But what do know?
@@theseanie9958 Exactly. He slowed enough until about 100ft from the corner to make it look like he was bailing out. He wasn't blocked, and had half a track worth of space to put his car into T1. Ross took a chance on a loophole in the rules/track design and it almost paid off. This is a non-issue if NASCAR/IMS put a stop-n-go box, or even a very slow chicane (ex. F1) in the escape road. This isn't Ross' fault.
@@tonybozeglav8744 it'd nascars fault for expecting drivers not to try to to use a grayish srea to cheat. It's the drivers fault for trying to c heat lol
@@theseanie9958 I can't fault a driver for trying to exploit an obvious loophole in the rules. As the saying goes, "if you ain't cheatin you ain't tryin". If it wasn't Ross, someone else was going to do it to gain position, so I applaud him for forcing NASCAR to address it. It's just unfortunate it happened this way because NASCAR was too dumb to do something about T1, despite doing this very thing for T12/13, and knowing about it all weekend.
I listened to the radio and it certainly wasn't pre planned over the radio. It may have been pre planned in his mind though, idk. He had every right to take it based on who was on his inside.
Doesn't matter if he was on the brakes. Watch the replay: all the other cars can be seen either slightly turning (depending on position) or turning - into the turn. Not Chastain: he maintains a straight vector and drives into the access road. The access road is - not - the race track. A driver cannot claim that a corner will POSSIBLY cause a wreck based on the amount of cars turning in and simply take an access road. According to the NASCAR Rulebook the driver, if taking the access road is required to STOP at the end of the road.
Another huge thing the Chastain apologists miss is that the reason Ross was in a bad position to begin with is jumped to Almendinger's outside on the front stretch during the restart and put himself on the outside of a 4 wide going into a 90 degree turn. Not being able to make the corner because you'll probably wreck isn't an excuse when you drive like an idiot and put yourself in that position in the first place.
I agree, and while I can't prove it, I think Chastain knew that he would have to "sell" it a little bit by at least slowing some. He was smart enough to know that if he'd just gone in there as fast he could, then it would have been impossible for him to even suggest that he "missed" the turn. It would have been an easy black flag to throw by Nascar that way. Also, there was NO wreck when he chose to take the route, so he can't say he was avoiding the wreck.
Am I the only 1 that seen Suarez interview Monday where he says him and Chastain talked about cutting the course to gain time on Saturday he had clear intent to miss turn 1 and gain spots
Mike's failure here is the fact he admits he won't criticize IMS. As an unbiased observer you have to be willing and able to give constructive criticism regardless of the stature you may give something or someone. They can place offsets to allow drivers to correct mistakes when they do run off the course in known troublesome areas. After that particular corner they could have areas a driver can hold fast then merge back in and I am not saying Chastain was in the right by racing the leader here. But if they place a lane to move over in a couple of areas they can institute a rule you either give back the places gained in a specific amount of time or your docked by time itself.
They did. You either stop in turn 12 or safely give back spots gained. All he had to do was go back to 3rd or 4th probably and they might have considered that a penalty cleared.
How come no one in the booth seen Austin Dillion fallow Ross though the Access road but I suee heard motor mouth Jeff Burton calling it illegal before Nascar did
on stacking pennies podcast with Reddick they said they had to do a stop n go in 12 for using that access road, the staff member said it was mentioned in drivers' meetings, so maybe they need to be handing out more penalties or be more consistent like Brad has mentioned.
He should of attempted the corner and cut through the grass. Bubba did it and improved his position without a word being said. It would of looked better.
Yet, last year, Briscoe got sent through the grass after attempting the corner...and was penalized for gaining spots. I think Ross should be docked for gaining time, but I don't think the severity of the penalty was warranted. He braked, realized he was going to be 4 (or more) wide and would be put in the grass. Heck the car to his inside was in the grass... So, he made a really smart move, and preserved the car and his opportunity to finish well. He just did it a little too well for Nascar's liking.
Mike has balls to talk like this about Driving a nascar race car do Dale Earnhardt Jr. I've never met Dale but I can say I don't want to debate this with Mr. Earnhardt. This is a great discussion you two.
Question for Ask Jr, Would you like to see a similar penalty for having both sides of the car cross over to outside the curbs like F1. In F1 you can only cross with both sides 5 times during a race. After that you get docked 5 seconds per infraction at the end of the race. This works well in F1 for keeping cars on the track. Thoughts???
I didn’t see him brake at all. He faded to the wall to get around the 3 quicker and then took off like a bat out of hell. That move was planned and he took a chance.
@@geraldcampbell9860 OK....but still gained six positions using the detour? Still not right...not in any series. He planned it ahead of time. He totally knew what he was doing.
I think Ross cutting the corner was a calculated risk. He knew there was a chance NASCAR would call it, and he took it anyway. If he hadn't, he almost certainly would have been run over, probably spun, and quite possibly stuck in a worse position than he'd have been in without the penalty. A couple of the other teams outright admitted that they were looking at that access road as a potential option for avoiding a pileup in turn 1, and I'd be willing to bet that most of the others had that conversation. Loath as I am to agree with Logano on pretty much anything, I think he said it best: in his mind, Ross finished second, and I absolutely agree. NASCAR's decision to penalize him for taking the access road was chickenshit. He exposed a lack of foresight on their part and they hammered him for it because he made them look bad.
I'm sorry but in no racing Motorsports series is using the escape road and gaining an advantage legal. No racing series condones that. He "went into the corner" 6th and came out in the lead. He deserved to be penalised
To Dale's point that is a terrible corner, funnels way too hard. Chastain should have slowed his vehicle more, like a rolling stop. Once you made the decision to take the access road during a race, you should have it implemented into the gameplan to intentionally slow down. It's a gentlemanly gesture to do your best to put yourself back into a realistic position in the race, as if you would have survived the turn.
What was said in driver’s meeting before race? Were they told if they needed to avoid accident they could use the access & the long way around is the penalty?
You need to do a video discussing Bubba's shortcut across the grass. Chastain & Dillion were penalized by NASCAR but for some reason that I don't understand, the 23 was allowed to advance his position 15 positions cutting across the grass. 🤔🤨🧐
@@nickmangona48 NASCAR has dropped the ball in not thinking through this scenario. I agree that the 23 was collected and pushed into the grass no fault of his own but allowing him to advance his position is unfair to the other drivers.
Noooo Chastain stabbed the gas before starting to turn. He may have been braking next to the others however he bailed on the turn. Great debates this week
I love road course racing, but Indy needs to be run the opposite way and use the access road that Chastain took as the race track and the current turn one part of the track as the entry to pit road. Simple.
As far as I'm concerned Jr can say whatever he wants. He has kept me from from suicide before and will never know it. So I owe him. I've followed his entire career, watched him struggle after he ultimately (literally )watched his world suddenly get flipped upside down.. Go back and listen to broadcasts right after 2/2001.. and how much weight and pressure, JUST the broadcasters were (unintentionally I'm sure) putting on him. "Can he do it! Can he win again after losing..." I mean it sounds AWFUL listening to them at Daytona in the summer 01 race..What happened was devastating...and he wasn't prepared to take on the world..Looking back, I know "fans" were hurting..but HE WAS TOO and driving a 3400lb missle around ..NASCAR SHOULD HAVE NEVER let him or anyone get right back in ..there needs to be a grieving/privacy clause..or something. It's shocking to me at how many PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE a clue at much grief the drivers gave him at Myrtle Beach, for example..His dad just didn't "hand him a career" either. People talking trash over the years ABOUT HIS NAME... like is the man supposed to CHANGE HIS NAME??? TELL fans "hey don't root for me! I am changing my name!! " Ridiculous.. people can be so cruel and ALOT of poorer men than ME HAVE NOT 1/10000TH of the humbleness, or personality as Dale Jr.. If people want to argue BAD enough , about ANYTHING he says.. Go get their own show and they say anything they like. Like I said he's kept me taking myself out.Dale Jr. has saved me from the edge, I'm sure he will never know it, I would not WANT to EVEN THAT on him because I wouldn't want it misconstrued or recycled into more , even if a ounce , of weight on him . The dude is a class act AS are the guests, Mike Davis, The Gees, his cousin and uncle, Family and .. How many sports shows are this "real"? Anyways I have noticed since he has been a broadcaster he looks so much happier and sounds great. I'm happy for him. Regardless of whatever circumstances.. that's not important.. What's important is that I didn't harm me or destroy my family... So I always wish him nothing but the best.
He knew what he was doing. It was an if/then thing. If he got to the corner and there was room, he would’ve taken the corner, if it was 5 wide, then he had a plan because of a practice thing.
Perfect Example. Monza T1, one of the most hectic corners in racing where people often have to just dodge the corner to not be wrecked out and you will never gain positions taking the run off. The run off is there for driver safety and in my opinion it’s wrong to discourage the use of the access road. Just needles increase of risk.
there’s a huge difference between being out braked and people not braking and just sending it into your door and using you as their brakes to make a turn, at least 4-5 cars did that on both of the last two restarts, he knew their would be a wreck their and rolled the dice on nascar not penalizing him as people had used the access road the same way all weekend, they gained a lot of time doing it, just not as obvious bc it wasn’t a restart. If they weren’t going to penalize it all weekend and he’s already locked in and has two wins, I don’t blame him at all for taking the gamble, as it almost paid off
Of course I had no idea that the driver's had been using the access road all weekend but when I read a tweet before the race stating if you missed turn 1 you had to stop in 12 (??) that it would naturally apply, even for the access road. I even tweeted the quote to all the guys in the booth. I mean taking the access road "is" missing/cutting turn one is it not? 🤨🤷🏻♀️
Nascar made the right call on Chastain short cutting the course. He advanced his positions ahead of 2nd place. Should Ross take back the positions? Yes.
Nothing wrong with that turn in Rd Racing, that type of turn allows for risk behavior which is great for the entertainment factor. Drivers have to decide on there points standing and finishing races for there points standings. Maybe Chastain didn't get the traction he expected, maybe he got greedy, paid deerly for it, and made somebody else pay for it also. But turns like that usually come with rules, you go into the run-off, you can not gain positions coming out, you can not force your way into traffic putting others races at risk coming out of the run-off. run-off.
Doesn’t nascar have on board telemetry to look at. He put himself way out there, knowing it was the worst line to make the corner. He knew what he was doing. Did bubba stop in turn 12 after gaining spots? Asking for a friend
Idk that I fully agree that turn one is a poorly designed turn. Many road courses are like this. Watkins and Roval come to mind as having similar turn ones.
I agree with Junior that it's a poorly designed corner for a "turn 1". I thought I heard that if you used an access road then you had to stop at turn 5/6, or other corner, to not get a penalty.
Or don’t go 4 wide, drivers need to learn how to race road courses. Certain turns you can pass in and sometimes you got to fall in line and set up for those corners. This is especially true in street course races
@@billkuduk1159 With todays equal cars all you hear is " you have to get positions 1 - on pit stops, 2 - on restarts. You have a 5 wide straight away going into a 2 wide turn. Young drivers, with a job/career on the line, only want to "fall in line""at the front of the line.
Haha I listened to this live and said oh here we go again, the old married couple are bickering again at one another. I said GET HIM JR SHOW MIKE THAT EARNHARDT AGGRESSION
There was No accident in the Corner up to that point . Ross deliberately went for the short Cut at SPEED . He's in the high lights every week I'm starting to like him .
Just before he merged into 1st place you can see he locks up his tires his tires stopped but his forward momentum did not stop. This out of the blue rule change is why I don't watch much Nascar. They should have had the rule in place before the start of the race.
They're in what, 2nd gear going into turn 1? Those cars have a fair amount of torque. It doesn't take much time, in 2nd, to pop back up into 3rd, and hit some major speed in a really short time. They're race cars, after all.
well, he got out braked and quit the attempt before the turn. in a track where that escape route wasn't there, he would've had to just give up position but he got beat into the corner and then did it with the intention to maintain track position.
Bud, there’s a huge difference between being out braked and people not braking and just sending it into your door and using you as their brakes to make a turn, at least 4-5 cars did that on both of the last two restarts, he knew their would be a wreck their and rolled the dice on nascar not penalizing him as people had used the access road the same way all weekend, they gained a lot of time doing it, just not as obvious bc it wasn’t a restart. If they weren’t going to penalize it all weekend and he’s already locked in and has two wins, I don’t blame him at all for taking the gamble, as it almost paid off
Mike!! Cmon Devils advocate! But this is what makes the show awesome!! Mike speaks and all the other guys are like turning their heads and say what.. hmm. Too damn funny
i'm a sportscar racer. i think ross executed a viable option. i'll bet he was as shocked as anyone that he was about to come out on track IN FRONT of the leader....
My thing to solve this is either 1 make them stop and go after they miss the turn or 2 block off that route and make them have to turn around and go through turn 1. There’s corners that have a run off road but you have to still turn around and go back through the turn in formula 1.
I went to an scca event at indy, sat right down there by turn 1 (best seat in the house for sure) if two drivers were battling for position, and one if those drivers missed turn 1 and took the access road, the battle literally continued by turn 3 with no penalties.
Didn't another car blow through there a few seconds later? I thought I had seen a 2nd car miss the turn but I didn't see the outcome of that car because the cameras were all on Chastain, Reddick & the next turns.
If they go back they should move the restart zone somewhere else on the track, I know it’s a strange idea to put a restart zone somewhere else but the start finis, but it would solve this issue . Put a little flag stand up somewhere in the middle of the course and get the green waving at that zone
got to put a speed limit on the road or stop and go, time penalty was correct. Everyone knows you cant do something like that and get away with it. Chastain was trying to gain a spot going offtrack and you got to give them spots back. Thats the rule.
The way I see it is: He made the right call to save the car. BUT by coming back onto the track and GAINING positions, it should be treated the same way as advancing positions by going under the yellow line. Penalty gets added. Also, I think the biggest issue is that when something like this comes so close to the end of the race, I don't think that NASCAR really has the time to both call the penalty AND enforce the penalty before the checked flag comes out. I mean, even if they threw the black flag for Chastain, would he have enough time to come by and see the flag AND then stop/go for the penalty to come back out BEFORE the checked flag came out? Again, the issue isn't using the access road to avoid an accident or purposefully wrecking another driver.... it is the gaining of positions that matters.
IMO NASCAR made the right call on Chastain, it is not a racing surface and you cannot advance your position using the runoff IE; Daytona Talladega below yellow line.
I think it shows Chastain’s mental capabilities. First that he would pre meditate that move, and second thinking he could have gotten away with it, when he failed to bring his car to a complete stop. Chastain’s spotter or crew chief told him about Denny going through the runoff road, gaining positions without stopping. You know he was thinking his rival did it so I’m going to do it also.
![[TH] 2024 PMSL SEA Finals D1 | Fall | ยิงต้องโหด ให้เหมือนโกรธกันมาก่อน](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/OnTdfGySmds/mqdefault.jpg)
I've seen countless screenshots of a NASCAR rule book that states that if a driver goes off track or uses an access road but DOES NOT gain an advantage/position as a result, NASCAR can choose not to administer the penalty.
This to me indicates that it's clear that there is a penalty for cutting the course in any way if you gain an advantage. And just from a logical point there is not a single racing series in the world where that would be considered a legal move to go unpenalized. Common sense says the penalty must be given in some way. In IndyCar they may even just force them to drop back positions on the track rather than force a stop and go etc...
I dont know why this is so confusing or controversial. If people were doing it all day Saturday and Sunday and gaining advantages and NASCAR wasn't doing anything about it then that's on them and they should be called out for getting it wrong.
Yeah and what you didn’t say u seen was that rule book was written in pencil ✏️
@@larryhobbs8769 I mean I guess. It looked like the nascar rule book looks and it was clear. Just weird.
Fernando Alonso Austrian grand prix last year. Not only did he do the same thing, he did it after complaining drivers could gain advantage & if it wasn't addressed he'd do it on purpose.
This!
he was already beat going into the corner by every car to his inside. if there wasn't an escape, he'd of just had to give up track position. he used it to at least maintain/arguably gain position
Sunday morning if you watched the formula 1 race. They had the same type of access road if you blew the corner. They put 4 temp walls put up so they had to zig zag threw the run off. They had it timed so you didnt have to stop. But if you went fast threw there you still couldnt get back on track faster. Nascar just needs to put some barriers to make them have to slow down. But not stop. And the problems taken care of it. You all just looking into it to much. Nascar dropped the ball again!!!!!
Simple as that. Give them the access road for instances exactly like Ross and Jr are arguing. Which is “they were 4 wide to my inside, there’s no chance I never would have made the corner.” But also make sure that access road is much slower to navigate than the actual track route. That HAS to be the answer. It’s okay to have a back up plan to avoid cars from bottling up and destroying each other, but the back up plan can’t be quicker than the damn track.
Put up barriers to swerve through. Something.
Is it Nascar or the track? I’d venture to say it’s probably the track
Exactly! NASCAR could learn a whole lot from F1. The run off areas in F1 and the bollards they set up, the barriers, is what nascar should have done for that access road. Ross chastain was docked the points because he gained a competitive advantage using the access road. Another F1 rule NASCAR should implement is the exceeding track limits. Some of these guys were 25 yards or more off track in several turns. Staying within track limits shows driving skills. A dead start at the beginning of a race would be exciting as well.
I agree with this i can see it going good or really terrible lol 😆
too dangrous
Ross said F-this well in advance. He took a chance that there would be a huge wreck at the turn and NASCAR would give him a pass. He gambled...and it nearly paid off.
Yup. The reality of the situation is that this is a result of NASCAR's playoff format. Once you win a race, you can basically be checkers or wreckers at the end of every race. A win is worth 5 points in the first stage of the Chase. That's literally the difference between 5th and 10th in points.
How is that different than the guys that would punt somebody into that turn, then take the access road to “avoid” the wreck.
First let's go all the way back to NASCAR turning stockcars into real racecar/bumper cars
Now turn 1 discussion Indy .....go
Totally agree!!!!!
I appreciate that Mike is the only one on the podcast that will call Dale Jr out on his lack of remembrance.
ross didnt really even try to hit the brakes with an attempt to make the corner
Dennis did it at least once and no penalty. I think Ross was wrong to think he could actually do that and be considered the leader, but Nascar was stupid and not consistent as usual on their judgment calls
NASCAR stated in the driver’s meeting that if you took the access road in that turn, you had to stop at the designated stop and go spot in another turn.
Its ingrained in my so I can say I quit .. but I won't quit keeping up with it.. Too many good people, and I just can't.. so I won't tell that lie.. I DO ABREE THAT THE INCONSISTENT GARBAGE IS UTTERLY STUPID .. IT MAKES THE POWERS THAT BE IN SUITS LOOK LIKE TOTAL IDIOTS. I HAVE TO RELEARN 500 "RULE CHANGES" AND POINTS GIMMICKS EVERY SINGLE YEAR.. also if a driver wants to fist fight.. Shouldn't they be REQUIRED TO TAKE OFF THEIR DAMN HELMET!? HOW can the driver who took his off have a chance.. I HATE THAT (lil baby Gibbs did it awhile back).. you wanna throw a punch at someone who has no helmet after walking 50 yards to them WITH A HELMET ON.. that's such a woosie move.. Wish they'd try that at my local track.. ha!
@@ethanweeter2732 Not true
I doubt Ross actually thought he'd be the leader when he made that decision. Probably just thought he'd lose a couple spots as opposed to wrecking
@@limprooster3253 huh? With that speed
It really doesn’t matter if he attempted to turn or not. He gained positions by taking a access run so it’s a penalty.
He gained about 2 car lengths if you look at the tape. Idk where NASCAR came up with 30 seconds. More like 3 tenths of a second.
@@pennythedog6605 He gained several seconds effectively not being in 4th or 5th.
@@ethanweeter2732 no he's about a car length behind the leader before entering the turn and side by side after taking the access road. That's not 30 seconds. Idk where NASCAR came up with that lol
Jr. is getting real fed up with Mike.
You can tell most recently Jr is back driving again..!! Little diffrent attitude!!! Love it!!
Why isn't anyone talking about the rule that you cannot advance your position when driving off track???????
Cause they just wanna dickride Chastain and act like he got screwed over and/or did nothing wrong
Not enough doctors and too many patients on the chat.
This call reminds of me what NASCAR used to say back in the early days which was 'not in the spirit of the rules'.
That's a position that is so vague and gray that it is the perfect official position hold in order to make any call one way or another. :)
Ye old “Actions detrimental to stock car auto racing…” rule.
On Door Bumper Clear, Denny Hamlin even kinda defended Ross’ move. He said he was glad Ross did it first, because he was gonna try it, and if NASCAR made anyone stop one the access road before continuing, they would still come out ahead rather than go through turn 1. This track configuration is and always will be a disaster.
The track is not a disaster. They've made changes where needed through trial and error
@@scottawes921 well, you’re right about the error part. At least the curbing stayed down this time.
@John Hopkins
That's my point. They took the curbing out at 5&6
Mike constantly seems like he doesn't watch the race and gets a talking point from someone who barely watched it...
They are both right Ross slowed down waited till the guy in front of him turned in and got out of his way then hit the gas to take the access road.
Well said Dale! Thanks to all that make this cast and Dirty Mo super awesome!
I'm way with Mike on this one. I would say he was trying to brake just long enough to make it look like he was trying to make the corner or maybe to not hit the guy in front of him. 90% of his plan was to take the joker lane. But what do know?
Thing is nobody was in front of him haha. He barely slowed
@@theseanie9958 Exactly. He slowed enough until about 100ft from the corner to make it look like he was bailing out. He wasn't blocked, and had half a track worth of space to put his car into T1. Ross took a chance on a loophole in the rules/track design and it almost paid off.
This is a non-issue if NASCAR/IMS put a stop-n-go box, or even a very slow chicane (ex. F1) in the escape road. This isn't Ross' fault.
@@tonybozeglav8744 it'd nascars fault for expecting drivers not to try to to use a grayish srea to cheat. It's the drivers fault for trying to c heat lol
@@theseanie9958 I can't fault a driver for trying to exploit an obvious loophole in the rules. As the saying goes, "if you ain't cheatin you ain't tryin". If it wasn't Ross, someone else was going to do it to gain position, so I applaud him for forcing NASCAR to address it. It's just unfortunate it happened this way because NASCAR was too dumb to do something about T1, despite doing this very thing for T12/13, and knowing about it all weekend.
I listened to the radio and it certainly wasn't pre planned over the radio. It may have been pre planned in his mind though, idk. He had every right to take it based on who was on his inside.
Once again, Mike didn't watch the race.
Doesn't matter if he was on the brakes.
Watch the replay: all the other cars can be seen either slightly turning (depending on position) or turning - into the turn.
Not Chastain: he maintains a straight vector and drives into the access road.
The access road is - not - the race track.
A driver cannot claim that a corner will POSSIBLY cause a wreck based on the amount of cars turning in and simply take an access road.
According to the NASCAR Rulebook the driver, if taking the access road is required to STOP at the end of the road.
Another huge thing the Chastain apologists miss is that the reason Ross was in a bad position to begin with is jumped to Almendinger's outside on the front stretch during the restart and put himself on the outside of a 4 wide going into a 90 degree turn. Not being able to make the corner because you'll probably wreck isn't an excuse when you drive like an idiot and put yourself in that position in the first place.
I agree, and while I can't prove it, I think Chastain knew that he would have to "sell" it a little bit by at least slowing some. He was smart enough to know that if he'd just gone in there as fast he could, then it would have been impossible for him to even suggest that he "missed" the turn. It would have been an easy black flag to throw by Nascar that way. Also, there was NO wreck when he chose to take the route, so he can't say he was avoiding the wreck.
@@mattb.2740 i agree. Ross is a hack
@@alandavis1245 Me three i agree HACK
If you think Chastain didn't plan IN ADVANCE to take that road as a shortcut, I've got some ocean-front property in Utah to sell you!
🏁😮🏁
Am I the only 1 that seen Suarez interview Monday where he says him and Chastain talked about cutting the course to gain time on Saturday he had clear intent to miss turn 1 and gain spots
I agree with Matthew's remark it seems that Mike does not watch the race.
Clearly
Great discussion. Although, Mikey needs to put his big boy pants on sometimes and not be so butt-hurt thinking everyone is ganging up on him.
Mike's failure here is the fact he admits he won't criticize IMS. As an unbiased observer you have to be willing and able to give constructive criticism regardless of the stature you may give something or someone. They can place offsets to allow drivers to correct mistakes when they do run off the course in known troublesome areas.
After that particular corner they could have areas a driver can hold fast then merge back in and I am not saying Chastain was in the right by racing the leader here. But if they place a lane to move over in a couple of areas they can institute a rule you either give back the places gained in a specific amount of time or your docked by time itself.
They did. You either stop in turn 12 or safely give back spots gained. All he had to do was go back to 3rd or 4th probably and they might have considered that a penalty cleared.
Tbf, IndyCar doesn't have the same level of crazy in that same turn on the same track. I don't think the track is the issue
Dale, please watch the overhead video. Ross obviously faded to the wall to get around the 3, and then took off.
How come no one in the booth seen Austin Dillion fallow Ross though the Access road but I suee heard motor mouth Jeff Burton calling it illegal before Nascar did
In NASCAR rule book there is a section on "Track Limits" There you will find the answer.
the 8 had no idea if he had to race Chastain or not.
what if they knock each other off the track ?
I love Ross. The race between him and Reddick on that lap was AWESOME!, even if it didn't count.
I feel like Mike is one of those guys that disagrees just to disagree
Except that Mike was right here.
@@jek4837 Denny pretty much said he told Dale Jr. he wrecked Ross
on stacking pennies podcast with Reddick they said they had to do a stop n go in 12 for using that access road, the staff member said it was mentioned in drivers' meetings, so maybe they need to be handing out more penalties or be more consistent like Brad has mentioned.
He should of attempted the corner and cut through the grass. Bubba did it and improved his position without a word being said. It would of looked better.
Yet, last year, Briscoe got sent through the grass after attempting the corner...and was penalized for gaining spots.
I think Ross should be docked for gaining time, but I don't think the severity of the penalty was warranted.
He braked, realized he was going to be 4 (or more) wide and would be put in the grass. Heck the car to his inside was in the grass...
So, he made a really smart move, and preserved the car and his opportunity to finish well.
He just did it a little too well for Nascar's liking.
Davis-“Slowed down like a fat kid going to a salad bar”. 😂😂😂
Mike has balls to talk like this about Driving a nascar race car do Dale Earnhardt Jr. I've never met Dale but I can say I don't want to debate this with Mr. Earnhardt. This is a great discussion you two.
Bubba cut the grass and gained several positions and never served a stop anywhere! NASCAR just has a beef against Ross!
I kinda agree with you but I think they absolutely can't penalize Wallace..doing that is not in today's nascars best interest.
SAD
Question for Ask Jr, Would you like to see a similar penalty for having both sides of the car cross over to outside the curbs like F1. In F1 you can only cross with both sides 5 times during a race. After that you get docked 5 seconds per infraction at the end of the race. This works well in F1 for keeping cars on the track. Thoughts???
I didn’t see him brake at all. He faded to the wall to get around the 3 quicker and then took off like a bat out of hell. That move was planned and he took a chance.
Damn mike!!!!!!! Come on dude
What do you do if your Tyler Reddick in that situation ???!!
You race the damm car in front of you .
WTF Mike ???
Mikes a little salty lmao love this show
He took off at break neck speed and gained something like 13 positions. Surely NASCAR had to step in there.
he restarted 6th on the restart?
@@geraldcampbell9860 OK....but still gained six positions using the detour? Still not right...not in any series.
He planned it ahead of time. He totally knew what he was doing.
Bless your heart Mike!
you should start turning off Mike's mic until you've reviewed the subject matter together. I'm not even sure he watched the same race.
I think Ross cutting the corner was a calculated risk. He knew there was a chance NASCAR would call it, and he took it anyway. If he hadn't, he almost certainly would have been run over, probably spun, and quite possibly stuck in a worse position than he'd have been in without the penalty. A couple of the other teams outright admitted that they were looking at that access road as a potential option for avoiding a pileup in turn 1, and I'd be willing to bet that most of the others had that conversation. Loath as I am to agree with Logano on pretty much anything, I think he said it best: in his mind, Ross finished second, and I absolutely agree.
NASCAR's decision to penalize him for taking the access road was chickenshit. He exposed a lack of foresight on their part and they hammered him for it because he made them look bad.
Logano was also the guy who dived into that corner 6/7 wide and caused the wreck that led to that green white checkered
I'm sorry but in no racing Motorsports series is using the escape road and gaining an advantage legal. No racing series condones that. He "went into the corner" 6th and came out in the lead. He deserved to be penalised
@@asareirene Not many other motorsports where you can rear end a guy at 190mph and be doing him a favor, either.
His mistake was not taking the access road, it was rejoining the race in better position than he left it.
I Love this new segment each week... "WHO'S RIGHT & WHO'S WRONG...!!".. 😆
If y’all listen to NASCAR Radioactive it sounds like the spotter for Ross says “bring it down the access road.”
To Dale's point that is a terrible corner, funnels way too hard. Chastain should have slowed his vehicle more, like a rolling stop.
Once you made the decision to take the access road during a race, you should have it implemented into the gameplan to intentionally slow down.
It's a gentlemanly gesture to do your best to put yourself back into a realistic position in the race, as if you would have survived the turn.
What was said in driver’s meeting before race? Were they told if they needed to avoid accident they could use the access & the long way around is the penalty?
You need to do a video discussing Bubba's shortcut across the grass. Chastain & Dillion were penalized by NASCAR but for some reason that I don't understand, the 23 was allowed to advance his position 15 positions cutting across the grass. 🤔🤨🧐
Because he was collected in the 14 and 18 contact, the 14 spun into him. He had no where to go. Simple as that.
@@nickmangona48 NASCAR has dropped the ball in not thinking through this scenario. I agree that the 23 was collected and pushed into the grass no fault of his own but allowing him to advance his position is unfair to the other drivers.
Even when yr Sim racing. Turn 1 is a joke. It's a terrible corner.
Noooo Chastain stabbed the gas before starting to turn. He may have been braking next to the others however he bailed on the turn.
Great debates this week
I love road course racing, but Indy needs to be run the opposite way and use the access road that Chastain took as the race track and the current turn one part of the track as the entry to pit road. Simple.
I LOVE THIS DEBATE FORMAT 😂
As far as I'm concerned Jr can say whatever he wants. He has kept me from from suicide before and will never know it. So I owe him. I've followed his entire career, watched him struggle after he ultimately (literally )watched his world suddenly get flipped upside down.. Go back and listen to broadcasts right after 2/2001.. and how much weight and pressure, JUST the broadcasters were (unintentionally I'm sure) putting on him. "Can he do it! Can he win again after losing..." I mean it sounds AWFUL listening to them at Daytona in the summer 01 race..What happened was devastating...and he wasn't prepared to take on the world..Looking back, I know "fans" were hurting..but HE WAS TOO and driving a 3400lb missle around ..NASCAR SHOULD HAVE NEVER let him or anyone get right back in ..there needs to be a grieving/privacy clause..or something. It's shocking to me at how many PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE a clue at much grief the drivers gave him at Myrtle Beach, for example..His dad just didn't "hand him a career" either. People talking trash over the years ABOUT HIS NAME... like is the man supposed to CHANGE HIS NAME??? TELL fans "hey don't root for me! I am changing my name!! " Ridiculous.. people can be so cruel and ALOT of poorer men than ME HAVE NOT 1/10000TH of the humbleness, or personality as Dale Jr.. If people want to argue BAD enough , about ANYTHING he says.. Go get their own show and they say anything they like. Like I said he's kept me taking myself out.Dale Jr. has saved me from the edge, I'm sure he will never know it, I would not WANT to EVEN THAT on him because I wouldn't want it misconstrued or recycled into more , even if a ounce , of weight on him . The dude is a class act AS are the guests, Mike Davis, The Gees, his cousin and uncle, Family and .. How many sports shows are this "real"? Anyways I have noticed since he has been a broadcaster he looks so much happier and sounds great. I'm happy for him. Regardless of whatever circumstances.. that's not important.. What's important is that I didn't harm me or destroy my family... So I always wish him nothing but the best.
Whatever the circumstances were, I'm so glad you are still here to type that message !
He knew what he was doing. It was an if/then thing. If he got to the corner and there was room, he would’ve taken the corner, if it was 5 wide, then he had a plan because of a practice thing.
I don't see the issue with that. That's just a driver being smart and leaving himself an out
Perfect Example. Monza T1, one of the most hectic corners in racing where people often have to just dodge the corner to not be wrecked out and you will never gain positions taking the run off. The run off is there for driver safety and in my opinion it’s wrong to discourage the use of the access road. Just needles increase of risk.
The difference is that there are billiards or something like that in the access road at Monza. But stock cars can't zigzag like that.
there’s a huge difference between being out braked and people not braking and just sending it into your door and using you as their brakes to make a turn, at least 4-5 cars did that on both of the last two restarts, he knew their would be a wreck their and rolled the dice on nascar not penalizing him as people had used the access road the same way all weekend, they gained a lot of time doing it, just not as obvious bc it wasn’t a restart. If they weren’t going to penalize it all weekend and he’s already locked in and has two wins, I don’t blame him at all for taking the gamble, as it almost paid off
Of course I had no idea that the driver's had been using the access road all weekend but when I read a tweet before the race stating if you missed turn 1 you had to stop in 12 (??) that it would naturally apply, even for the access road. I even tweeted the quote to all the guys in the booth. I mean taking the access road "is" missing/cutting turn one is it not? 🤨🤷🏻♀️
Exactly. And he gained a clear and unfair advantage. Once you gain the unfair advantage, it becomes a penalty.
The mind of a racer knows the mind of a racer. The mind of a spectator knows the minds of a spectator. I'll side with Dale on this one.
Nascar made the right call on Chastain short cutting the course. He advanced his positions ahead of 2nd place. Should Ross take back the positions? Yes.
Now what would have happened if Riddeck and Chastain would have wrecked each other. That would have been an ugly situation for NASCAR.
Run the current configuration counter clockwise. Add the old turn 4 chicane back to the course
Next year they should put a stop sign at the end of that access road and place a State Trooper there to keep everybody honest.
State troopers make an honest man until we hear how fast we were going.
Am I the only one that thinks that there’s a hell of a lot better people to have on this show other than Mike
at this point i'd take Joe Buck
Not sure I agree with Junior. I'm no racecar driver, but I know Chastain sure flew off my screen like he knew it was coming.
If he’s allowed to take the access road, why can’t everyone…. Why have a road race??
Miss the chicane at the other rovals and you have to come to a complete stop. I think they should have the same rule for Indy.
Nothing wrong with that turn in Rd Racing, that type of turn allows for risk behavior which is great for the entertainment factor. Drivers have to decide on there points standing and finishing races for there points standings.
Maybe Chastain didn't get the traction he expected, maybe he got greedy, paid deerly for it, and made somebody else pay for it also.
But turns like that usually come with rules, you go into the
run-off, you can not gain positions coming out, you can not force your way into traffic putting others races at risk coming out of the run-off.
run-off.
This aged well
Dale, I luv ya man, but I think you’re wrong here.
Doesn’t nascar have on board telemetry to look at. He put himself way out there, knowing it was the worst line to make the corner. He knew what he was doing. Did bubba stop in turn 12 after gaining spots? Asking for a friend
No he did not stop
They will give burba every break that they can🤮🤮🤮
@@davidburchfield2720 and it’s never discussed, interesting
Did Bubba gain 5 spots cutting the corner? Asking for a friend
Idk that I fully agree that turn one is a poorly designed turn. Many road courses are like this. Watkins and Roval come to mind as having similar turn ones.
I agree with Junior that it's a poorly designed corner for a "turn 1". I thought I heard that if you used an access road then you had to stop at turn 5/6, or other corner, to not get a penalty.
Or don’t go 4 wide, drivers need to learn how to race road courses. Certain turns you can pass in and sometimes you got to fall in line and set up for those corners. This is especially true in street course races
@@billkuduk1159 With todays equal cars all you hear is " you have to get positions 1 - on pit stops, 2 - on restarts. You have a 5 wide straight away going into a 2 wide turn. Young drivers, with a job/career on the line, only want to "fall in line""at the front of the line.
Making up new rules at the end of a race, is very F1 like.
Mike, my man, your assessment of these racing situations has been pretty left field lately.
Haha I listened to this live and said oh here we go again, the old married couple are bickering again at one another. I said GET HIM JR SHOW MIKE THAT EARNHARDT AGGRESSION
There was No accident in the Corner up to that point . Ross deliberately went for the short Cut at SPEED . He's in the high lights every week I'm starting to like him .
Just before he merged into 1st place you can see he locks up his tires his tires stopped but his forward momentum did not stop. This out of the blue rule change is why I don't watch much Nascar. They should have had the rule in place before the start of the race.
They're in what, 2nd gear going into turn 1? Those cars have a fair amount of torque. It doesn't take much time, in 2nd, to pop back up into 3rd, and hit some major speed in a really short time. They're race cars, after all.
well, he got out braked and quit the attempt before the turn. in a track where that escape route wasn't there, he would've had to just give up position but he got beat into the corner and then did it with the intention to maintain track position.
Bud, there’s a huge difference between being out braked and people not braking and just sending it into your door and using you as their brakes to make a turn, at least 4-5 cars did that on both of the last two restarts, he knew their would be a wreck their and rolled the dice on nascar not penalizing him as people had used the access road the same way all weekend, they gained a lot of time doing it, just not as obvious bc it wasn’t a restart. If they weren’t going to penalize it all weekend and he’s already locked in and has two wins, I don’t blame him at all for taking the gamble, as it almost paid off
Mike!! Cmon Devils advocate! But this is what makes the show awesome!! Mike speaks and all the other guys are like turning their heads and say what.. hmm. Too damn funny
i'm a sportscar racer. i think ross executed a viable option. i'll bet he was as shocked as anyone that he was about to come out on track IN FRONT of the leader....
Do you have the clip where Dale suggests Ross and Denny teaming up lol
Thanks for the honest truth.
I am with Mike on this... Chastain NEVER intended to "make the corner".... what a clown show NASCAR has become...
My thing to solve this is either 1 make them stop and go after they miss the turn or 2 block off that route and make them have to turn around and go through turn 1. There’s corners that have a run off road but you have to still turn around and go back through the turn in formula 1.
I went to an scca event at indy, sat right down there by turn 1 (best seat in the house for sure) if two drivers were battling for position, and one if those drivers missed turn 1 and took the access road, the battle literally continued by turn 3 with no penalties.
Mike Davis is so dang professional, he not only makes his unpopular point he also stands up for others that mite think in a similar way. Straight Pro🏁
Didn't another car blow through there a few seconds later? I thought I had seen a 2nd car miss the turn but I didn't see the outcome of that car because the cameras were all on Chastain, Reddick & the next turns.
Austin Dillon was behind Chastain through the escape road, and also got a 30 second penalty.
Another thing why are reporters Or the announcers don’t have the guts to question NASCAR for their stupidities I call them Cowers
You're Right Mike. No Brainer
Premeditated, "just in case I can't make it" move. IMO, if he was braking he wasn't slowing down.
He's braking at the same rate as Blaney and Allmendinger. He stays even with them until he makes the decision to break left
Mike has lost all common sense.
Add a chicane to the access road, automatically slows the path of progress. Problem solved.
If they go back they should move the restart zone somewhere else on the track, I know it’s a strange idea to put a restart zone somewhere else but the start finis, but it would solve this issue . Put a little flag stand up somewhere in the middle of the course and get the green waving at that zone
got to put a speed limit on the road or stop and go, time penalty was correct. Everyone knows you cant do something like that and get away with it. Chastain was trying to gain a spot going offtrack and you got to give them spots back. Thats the rule.
The way I see it is: He made the right call to save the car. BUT by coming back onto the track and GAINING positions, it should be treated the same way as advancing positions by going under the yellow line. Penalty gets added.
Also, I think the biggest issue is that when something like this comes so close to the end of the race, I don't think that NASCAR really has the time to both call the penalty AND enforce the penalty before the checked flag comes out. I mean, even if they threw the black flag for Chastain, would he have enough time to come by and see the flag AND then stop/go for the penalty to come back out BEFORE the checked flag came out?
Again, the issue isn't using the access road to avoid an accident or purposefully wrecking another driver.... it is the gaining of positions that matters.
So what did Mr. Chastain know, and when did he know it?
IMO NASCAR made the right call on Chastain, it is not a racing surface and you cannot advance your position using the runoff IE; Daytona Talladega below yellow line.
I think it shows Chastain’s mental capabilities. First that he would pre meditate that move, and second thinking he could have gotten away with it, when he failed to bring his car to a complete stop. Chastain’s spotter or crew chief told him about Denny going through the runoff road, gaining positions without stopping. You know he was thinking his rival did it so I’m going to do it also.