Josh is the wrong person to ask about prizing when his YCS win at Prague in 2017 resulted in his now-fiancé sliding into his DMs. Bro won the ultimate prize.
He's also a successful content creator, partially by the merit of his Yugioh skills, and has finished a degree in software engineering. He's safe pretty much no matter what.
A hobby is a casual few hours a week. Topping a ycs or even regionals requires hours of hard work and dedication that is beyond categorizing it as a mere hobby. At that level it's a sport, and players deserve better compensation for their devotion.
Exactly, I feel Josh saying you shouldn't expect a hobby to be profitable still works if ycs events have good prize support as 99% people will not make or ever expect to make a profit from this game as they just don't have skill or talent to devote to it. For those who do have the skill and time, they should be appropriately rewarded for it.
Loci is different from Fiendsmith Engraver because to play loci you have to run 6 bricks (Regulus, Ragnaraika Samurai Beetle, Sunseed Twin, Aromage Laurel, Humid Winds, Rikka Sheet) whereas to play fiendsmith you only have to run 1 brick (Fabled Lurrie). Therefore, it takes more deck-building skill to make an engine with 6 bricks work vs 1
Not only that, but it isn't splashable everywhere since you'll get plant locked at some point. You can't splash that engine everywhere and still play your deck like normal.
i dont say fiendsmith is more fair than loci no shot, but the plants endboard has super strong interaactions while appo ip desirae is very tame in comparison (problem is that fsse haas handtraps to back it)
the thing about the prizing is, it doesn’t necessarily have to be a cash prize but something that holds value. printing cool, unique cards as a prize would make a huge difference so people like josh can keep them as a reward and people like jess can sell for a profit. people love collecting and there’s been a lot of good ideas like the winner gets to pick which card they want in an exclusive ‘champ rarity’ or alt art that are usable in the game
This take I agree with. No one would say no to a little more effort in prizing even if some people would still clown on it because they will only be happy with $$
I mean, just look at the multi million dollar one of a kind BLS. That was a tournament prize, wasn’t it? Just do that, give people one of a kind prizes that are worth a few dozen grand for the bigger events. A Nintendo switch is fucking sad, assuming you even get one.
I think they should make a custom qcr with the art as the competitor's picture and the name the place they got. Its unique and rewarding and it doesn't even take much.
Was it just me or did Josh seem very defensive this episode? It felt like he was in therapy because he's in a toxic relationship with Konami and Farfa was the therapist trying to play the voice of reason, trying to get Josh to admit Konami is toxic to some degree with their relationship with their top talent. But he was unwilling to do so and kept talking about the good things that happened to him independent of Konami to try and dismiss what the other 2 were saying. Because acknowledging Konami has let so many people down would be a very hard fact to deal with.
If he wasn't there it would've just been a circlejerk of hating Konami AKA, a boring convo; having a Devil's Advocate for discussions like this is great, and I think Josh played the role fine
@Acholight in terms of having a conversation/ discussion your right foresure. I did like that they did have jess on here, the sam, pak, ( idk who the third person was) video that discussed this was a bit of a circle jerk compared to here.
I think Jess' argument about more cards in the engine correlating to a higher ceiling one-card combo makes sense. It would be in a way a correlation between investing deck space for power. So engines that have 15 cards should be in comparison only half as strong as an engine that contains 30 cards. Then, the balance between the engines would be that the 15 card engine would have more hand traps (interruptions) and the 30 cards would have to go through them. Snake-Eyes Fiendsmith has two small engines that are as consistent and powerful as a big engine like plants, that get the privilege to also include hand traps, so it gets the best of both worlds. I think the balance of the scales will always be broken and it will come back again, but that's the gist of how I see it.
On the topic of restrictions: I agree with Jess too. I think there should be more restrictions, especially like the Ragnaraika locks. They're tri-type, which allows for experimentation, while still limiting a considerable amount of the card pool. There's a saying that goes like "scarcity is the mother of creativity," but discussions talk of it being necessity instead. In the case of the game, I like thinking that the fuel of this necessity is the mix of a shallower card pool, as well as the interest in making a strategy/deck stronger, more consistent or just more fun. I think these niches that get filled by specific types, or attributes or archetypes have so much potential and I think they are so full of flavor that make the game more diverse and interesting. Also for some reason this makes me think of all of the anime seasons, where every character represents exactly this: a niche - a personality - a play style!
When thinking about pricing, I feel like I agree with both. Josh's point about it being something you invest in because you like it and it rewards you non-monetarily is absolutely correct. I know of people who buy those crazy 6k€ Leica analog cameras, and "the only thing they get" are the pictures they themselves take. If they can sell them for lots of money or if they just store them in an album, then who cares? They're happy about it. Jess' point is also incredibly important, which is basically feeling seen by Konami. There should be an inherent feeling of "Konami actually cares about their players" associated to the whole yugioh environment. Competitively, players should be respected by at least receiving quality-of-life improvements like getting flights and accomodation. Since Takahashi didn't want money involved in pricing, there should be something there that equals out at least part of the time and money that has been invested in the game by buying product. Money would be an easy answer, but what else could it be? Maybe a trip to Japan? Maybe some sort of design contribution of a card or part of a card for the posterity of the game? There's got to be something. Non-competitively, I think the environment is still bad, since the OCG gets multiple rarities and more card accessibility. Products are very hit-or-miss and prices are skyrocketing because chase cards are also the cards that are the most interesting or powerful, while the bulk is commons that WILL get banned (INFO!!!) or fun but terrible stuff like Wonky Quartet that is literally only there as a folklore reference. Lower prices and access to staple cards like in the Rarity Collections has been a delight, but now that they are getting banned after becoming accessible is what makes it a bitter experience. I feel like I'm being played for wanting to own Baronne de Fleur or Apollousa. Sometimes I feel like the game paywalls and tempts me to get strong cards, and then gives me a little taste of the good cards with reprints before they become inaccessible again via the banlist or because they're not relevant anymore. I can only associate it with a low quality of life. I don't know how to describe it in a better way. I don't know how other card games deal with this, but I think Jess' wish of having at least some benefits as a high-ranking player is fully understandable and it should get better.
And yeah if they changed the field spell rules back, it would just be a matter of adding a rule that states something like: "two field spells activated simultaneously don't destroy each other", or just adding a new line of text to fields that can cohabitate with others.
With all due respect Josh as person who started playing One Piece day 1 it is relatively easy to make money. Going even 6-3 in a regional often nets you 500$ minimum. For the first year of the game, I literally sold my tournament pack for playing at locals consistently for 40$ each and the game actually gave me a net positive for playing even if that was not my intent. Winning a local event after taking a break of the game literally won me a 500$ prize card which is the only way I could afford 1 single yugioh deck. Not to mention I spent 300$ total in the beginning to purchase every deck in one piece and didn't need to spend more money for an entire year to continue owning every deck. Josh is wearing rose tinted glasses because his financial situation does not cause him a barrier to entry of owning every card. I mean sometimes even company's will send him some sealed product. I literally had to put another 500$ of my own money with the money I won to even get a playable deck and then it demanded another 700$ a month or two later and I couldn't even afford to continue so I basically wasted 1000$ on 1 month of entertainment.
Josh came off very tone-deaf in this discussion and even farfa called him out on it. Really would have preferred at least a discussion on pricing/prizing and what could be done rather than "Well I would never quit, if you don't like it here go do something else you find fun". I understand both hosts work with Konami but you can still have a discussion without coming off so hostile to a topic both their guest and a majority of his chat were bringing up. Hard watch.
I think they managed to keep it very civil despite the huge disagreements here. Farfa actually also did a good job of middle-manning and reducing the tension.
like if I was top 100 in the world at any hobby, I would expect to get paid for getting a top placing in a tournament. Josh on his stream said something about golf clubs and sports equipment being expensive but you shouldn't expect a return on investment, but if I was a top in the world golfer I would expect money from a tournament. Even if my hobby was hot dog eating I would expect a cash prize for being one of the best in the world.
@@TrevorRox6thats just a wrong mindset right? Its cool that some hobbys have cash prizes, but I don't think you should expect something to come when you are good at your hobby. Its nice to have but shouldn't be necessary for you to grind your hobby
@@naxy_7 but you recognize the difference between being given a few OTS packs at locals and Jess being one of like two dozen people that got invited to a Worlds that year right? There should be more incentive than having your name written on a website for being one of the best players. Prizing could be so much better without costing Konami that much money like they could print an alt art version of a staple card with NAWCQ 2024 printed in the corner, print 16 or 32 and they would be worth infinitely more to the players than the cardboard they are printed on.
@@ducky36F Except that Konami does make a shitload of money off of it, in big part because top players keep promoting and representing the game. It's not like they're asking for handouts.
Damn this episode felt weird. I do.not know exactly what made it feel like that. Maybe that josh was to insistent wit his arguments or that jess was nervous. It felt tense
Dragon Link was the perfect deck with a 1.5 card combo with choke points and you all took it for granted. “Please Unhit Dragon Link. Thank You” -Dragon Link Streamer Man
Konami scared of our power legit striker has no reason to be limited also, the deck feels bad due to the format I've tried playing 50 cards but I think I am going to 43 cause I have been having consistency issues with the deck, but overall I'll keep playing it, I do however need a set of Purulia or the fiendsmith engine to kinda make the deck work better even though I want to keep playing the deck just rn it's not in the budget. Edit: Just for clarification, I was playing 50 cause of the fact last format was open 2 hts or you lose this format is like well I get shifter if my hand is decent maybe I can do something, but I think I am going 43 and resorting to floods which I did not want to do.
@@Jerry4281 I’d love to see your brews, we’re all over the place right now. Obviously nowadays we need consistency more than anything because of how hard we’ve gotten hit but in the past that’s what the best part of Dragon Link is that we don’t have bricks unless we just draw a hand of 5+ level monsters but we just have soft bricks and we have the ability to play 40 to 50 cards without it feeling bad. It’s like Trish’s and Tempests 60 card Dragon Link deck in MD. It was super consistent as 60 card pile.
Prizing is 100% an issue, that can be addressed still honoring the original foundation. Should 100% addressed. Paying for travel and board is not paying someone so how hard is it Konami! Prizes also can be more exclusive and more valuable for sale for the winners if they so choose very easily
So if I wanted to travel to every YCS in the year, Konami should be paying me for that? Yes they can improve prizes but they do no want to, that's their right as the game owners. As players it is our right to choose to play the game or not, it is not our right however to demand to be compensated in the way we desire. If prize support is the reason someone wants to play the game then they should choose another game.
@@BlueBloodPennthe point goes beyond that I am top 10-20 in the game I expect more than just nothing or a deck box with sleeves. U can‘t get that in your head do you?
@@maniachd324 The tournaments tell you what the prizing is. Being good or successful at something doesn’t mean you should rewarded in a way that suits you. If you don’t think it’s worth it on some level or you want more then don’t play.
@@BlueBloodPenn I agree honestly, I more of ment for tops in world qualifying events maybe like top 4 or something but yeah I agree with that. It’s a hobby so you shouldn’t be looking to make money out of this but at the same time pricing can be more supportive without actually monetizing winners is what I mean t
@@maniachd324 topping at worlds as she said and walking away with nothing is a complete lie there’s multiple top players posting you get a goodie bag valued around 4K plus just for entering worlds so I don’t really agree with her point in that either
I usually side with Josh in many things, he brings different perspectives that are usually reasonable, but in this episode he is just wrong about the rewards and pay situation, he keeps comparing Yugioh to a hobby, and to most it is a hobby, but for the top players it is sport, it is a competitive sport, that requires a lot of time, effort, and even luck, and if we have video game players getting endorsed, paid salaries, and rewarded substantially well by their respective games, why can't Yugioh have something similar, other card games seem to give back more, and even just the idea of a unique prize card that someone can sell for a high amount would be really good as well.
If you expect to make a living off playing yugioh then you definitely have issues, even “top” players from back in then day understood this, josh is an old head as well so he makes sense, this is a hobby some are more expensive then others, you enter for fun if you don’t want to pay for the plan ride or hotel then wait for a ycs to be in your area or something, get a job that pays well and save some money up for such events that cost a lot, yugioh is a hobby, ppl need to stop thinking that you going to be next the aster Phoenix calling yourself a pro every 5 mins making ton of money lol
@@UTgohan There are plenty of games people play just as an hobby but the moment you bring out offical competition to the table that argument doesn't really hold itself up.
Pro sports players used to play their respective sports as a hobby until they realized they had insane skills to go to the next level. Imagine those guys making it big and the owners giving them a pat on the back and fuck all for money. Sadly I dont think Josh has ever looked into how half of the world or actual sports work. It's the same shit when you buy things that are crafted by people, those wood workers and glass blowers and stuff all started as a hobby or family business. Easy to earn big money on trades/crafting skills if your the best of the best of them. If your the best at YGO you get a shitty rando vanilla and a playmat and trophy that costs peanuts for Konami to buy.
@@RandomGuyCDNPeople that play pro sports realized they could make money because the owners of the teams were playing for were making mega money from tickets, advertising and tv deals. Konami isn't making that kind of money from the tournaments. Expecting them to pay players enough to do this full-time while there aren't even as many events as there are games from other sports leagues and them having to foot the bill for the locations is ridiculous. Where is all that money going to come from? Olympic athletes are barely earning a living from their sports that are televised, but trading card players that barely get decent numbers on stream are going to make big bucks? Most of you don't understand how sports work.
I was really waiting for SOMEONE to mention how fundamentally different Shifter/Mulcharmys/Droll are from otherhand traps because of how inherently skilless they are. There is no reason not to shotgun Purulia, Shifter, or Droll at the first opportunity, whereas you need to consider when to use certain cards like Ash/Imperm/Nibiru.
This is a very important point. Just like what happens with Maxx C, you have to first win the mini game before you get to actually start playing Yu-Gi-Oh. There is no skill involved, is just a question of drawing the out.
Disagree. As someone who runs a semi-limit 2 Dimension Shifter in MD, some times it’s not about shot gunning as soon as possible. You NEED to know your match up. Some times sending Shifter to grave won’t trigger the Talent and you’re good but it can also trigger the Thrust. There are also times when people are running the PSY Frame hand trap and they negate the shifter anyways and now you’re out a hand trap. I also main deck Droplet so once I send shifter, droplet is dead for the next turn. Some times I’ll hold the shifter until I see what my opponent is playing and it’ll be a better move to go Droplet, send Shifter and negate a monster on the field. The other day, I decided to hold shifter and it turned out to be a Floo player. I was able to send shifter with droplet to negate the Empem and I was able to combo off. Also, if you’re playing Effect Veiler or Droll then you can’t shotgun shifter. You HAVE to wait till the right moment to Shifter and then chain Droll. I disagree that Shifter is a skill-less card because you either know how to play around it or you don’t. I played Branded at my first regional and I had practiced my Shifter line in the off chance I went against a Shifter deck. Same goes with cards like Nibiru, if you aren’t counting your summons then you always fall victim to Nibiru. This format, I’ve lost to Nibiru so much and it pissed me off every single time because it felt like every single opponent had Nibiru but I finally learned, I play under 3-4 summons and pass, every time I over extend, I get punished. So I learned to play it safe. Unless I have Talent and can check that there is no Nibiru, I’m playing under 5 summons every time. Nibiru is also a skill issue. We know it exists and we have to play knowing the threat is out there. Shifter is harder to play under for most decks but the best you can do is Crossout+Shifter (as I’ve seen some people do at the more competitive locals) or stick to 40 cards and pray for the called by (or play Herald of Orange Light with some fairies to negate Shifter, which one guy did at one live stream duel at my last locals) there are outs, people just don’t wanna risk the bricks.
@@zakariaelhimer1325 but it’s not. The chance of drawing both isn’t very high. 3 Shifters and 2 Droplets. It’s a going second deck, rarely has it ever been a hinderance. I wait to see if I top deck droplet or top deck shifter before I activate Droplet and in the off chance my opponent makes me go first, I just set the Droplet and send the Shifter once there’s a worthy monster on the field, then I can send with Droplet in the same chain to negate a boss monster and also have Shifter’s lingering effects. They’re all conditions that can work if chained together. Main decking 3 Droplets was a big mistake but the amount of times I can break a board by going “Lightning Storm, Cosmic Cyclone, Shifter, Droplet-send Lightning Storm and Cosmic Cyclone, negate two monsters” THEN I can start playing, it’s been working. Much better than playing these hand trap wars. I’m tired of top decking and Effect Veiler. At least top decking Evenly Matched and Dark Ruler has been winning me some games.
@@isaacn751 I wouldn't say include bricks but definitely should lock you. I'm also not opposed to generic support/engines for all decks as long as it's widely available and not gated behind an $800 core.
i understand Josh's point of view of "i dont think this specific issue should be a reason to quit the game" however we have so many more "this doesnt make you drop the game" type of issues than any other comparable hobby, especially in the card game sphere, and they stack on top of each other and compound progressively with each event you take part in. how many of these types of issues become enough to make you drop the game? I think Jess does. She quit it. ps: nevermind they istantly mentioned it after i typed out this comment HAHAHAHAH
I kinda, agree with Josh regarding prizing. I left this whole spiel on MBT’s video, but essentially, I think the typical argument/consensus on prizing I tend to see is backwards; basically, ‘deck expensive, so prizing should match that’. But rather than prizing needing to be higher, I feel the barrier to entry (cost of cardboard) should be much, much, much lower. Cause, let’s be real, prizing only affects like, if we’re generous, 5% of the entire playerbase. So that’s the last thing I’d be focusing on to help fix the game (which I wouldn’t consider fundamentally broken anyway). Better printing practices that in turn, make the cost of decks and staple cards to be WAY LOWER, and inline with the prizing offered, makes far more sense than the other way around. I really don’t believe any singular meta relevant card should be anywhere close to $100 or even $50 for that matter, cause we aren’t buying specialised equipment for a sport that has been stress tested through layers of R&D and made from premium materials that justify a high cost, like idk, wheels / tyres / coilovers / other expensive af car bits, we’re talking pieces of cardboard, that is ONLY expensive based on supply / demand, which can be fixed. I do think having high rarity collectors pieces in addition to regular printing is a sweet way to make pack opening still exciting for those that want to collect. I’m also not saying there shouldn’t be better prizing either, there really needs to be some incentive to play well, cause even if cardboard was cheap, there’s a huge time commitment to play this game at the highest level. I just don’t think fixing prizing fixes the game all that much at all, because really, it doesn’t affect 95% of the playerbase. Affordable cardboard though? That fixes a lot.
Card prices are definitely the main issue. But prizing is also causing people to quit, not just due to cost of play but because there's a bunch of competition now that are cheaper, in a healthier state, or pay more, usually at least two out of the three.
I completely agree. I play the game on a table at home, I'm never going to a ycs and I have have a job and there's things to do. Prizes have zero to do with me and my relationship with the game nor anyone else's that I know. That being said if better prizes make some players happy, I'm sure that's good for the overall health of the game. I just don't think it's top priority.
@@akaneki7234 To sum up everything he said into that framework you made, is a strawmanned version of his actual points, if you can understand that better.
@@Gokuvsnaruto22 he didn’t make any actual points; all he said was that some metas are good, some metas are bad and it’s all subjective if you don’t like it (which is a complete non-starter). Basically nothing he said was actually productive he just sandbagged the whole conversation, all for him to basically just say that all the complaints are legitimate but none would be good enough for him to quit the game because they aren’t why he plays. So I think the way I summarised it was pretty accurate to his overall sentiment. Sorry it wasn’t nuanced enough for you, but he wasn’t particularly nuanced himself; he was largely unbearable this episode.
@@akaneki7234 The point you brought up saying some metas are good, and some are bad is a point, whether you want to admit it or not. Just because you don’t agree with his points doesn’t mean it’s productive, when he himself agrees with Jess on the main issues of Yugioh. You sound like you’re making up all these flimsy reasons why his points was bad, because you didn’t agree with him. You can disagree with something and still admit he made an actual point.
Jess: Here's why I'm not having fun... Josh: That's cool, but let me complain about plants. Farfa: Is this what I'm going to have to deal with when my kid grows up?
I can’t not finish this, Josh is sincerely so bad faith it hurts. He did not even let Jess finish her point on the Fiendsmith cards when talking on one card combos before interrupting to say you can’t compare it because they are very generic and can be used in many decks. But that is the literal point she is trying to bring up. Then she explains her whole point again, using a one card combo that Josh agrees can be compared, and he just dismisses it all by making her defend the deck she is known for and disingenuously coming to a conclusion. He keeps doing this too for what little I was able to stomach. Much love to Farfa and Jess, but nothing good to say about Josh here.
I don't know what was up with him this episode. Usually he's pretty chill but it just seemed there was a chip on his shoulder or something. Maybe he was trying to super strong arm a devil's advocate here but this episode was a rough listen.
No matter how you spin it, normal summon loci and normal summon ash are not the same thing. Plants arent a bad deck and have some tools to succeed, snakes have all the tools. Aleister is a 1 card combo with recursion built in but it really doesn't matter.
I think Josh made a lot of intellectually dishonest arguments during this episode and, while he did get some pushback, he did not get called out on most of them. I feel like his position is, if nothing else, frustrating. Mostly because of his often (Mathmech) circular logic.
The problem with most yugitubers when it comes to serious discussions is exactly that its their job so having critical sense about the game that might lead to people realizing bad things about the game and quitting/losing interest is too much of a risk to them. A lot of them have no plan B for their lives if not to be yugioh content creators and that creates a dangerous relationship with the game and a dishonest one with viewers.
Here's why Josh's point on prizing is blatantly stupid. If a company creates a product as a hobby and then creates a competition which requires paid entry either by purchasing that product or actual paying to get in and then they use you and it as promotional material for that product they should absolutely provide a fair reward for that competition.
@@supersentaifan26 Don't feel sorry for Konami. They have the money for better prize support at ALL events. Let's not forget that they're farming you with the actual product by not introducing multiple rarities like they have in the OCG.
Joshs point isn't that prizing shouldn't be better. It's that prizing should not be the reason you play Yu-Gi-Oh or not. Your hobby should be determined by what you enjoy not by how much money you can make from it.
@@reformedloki6418 Jess isn't leaving just because of the prizing though, and I doubt it's the only reason others are quitting. So what's the point of that argument?
I think it's if you're a professional yugioh player or a hobby player. If you're a professional yugioh player you should get paid. But then how do you define professional, idk
The Mulcharmy cards definitely should be a make or break point for most Yu-Gi-Oh players, especially in the TCG. We've all heard over and over that OCG doesn't ban Maxx "C" because it gives OCG card design more flexibility because Maxx C (allegedly) checks those archetypes. By powering down Maxx C, the message I'm getting is that Yu-Gi-Oh is not going to change its design philosophy. Instead, the solution is to fix Maxx C so they can keep churning out powercreeping without leaving the TCG in the dust anymore. Thanks, I hate it.
powering down lmao, fuwaros cant be negated by just an ash blossom or a called if you draw two of them, its a better maxx c even in tenpai, tcg only made around 15% of overall 1.3 billion yugioh profit last year (all combined from ocg asia, japan, master duel, duel links) considering the logistics the tcg profit is very likely much lower, i can say that even by company standards you guys are expendable, just saying. also you guys are playing japanese games, why arent you all at least tried to copy the tournaments format in ocg? 3vs3 bo1 shared banlist for example, konami banlist in ocg is trying to promote that format.
like generally yugioh made products only for ocg audiences, and they will be sells product that cater the ocg preferences, but often this doesnt sell well in tcg, i did check on tcgplayers valiant smashers price and it went down instead went up, how tf its possible when this set is on the top 5 most sales product in ocg? this is one of those set that even players from other card game recognized "ah yes that guren lagann and that demon angel loli set thing" this set should been a major hit but its somehow doesnt in tcg.
@@traplover6357 we have in 3v3 shared ban in indonesia months ago, official as well. last year asia championship final is bo1 as well. just try it, stop forcing format that doesnt fit with the current card pool and the direction of the game. maybe use 3vs3 shared ban format in bo1 by 1 player playing 3 decks instead if you dont want to play bo1.
49:00 Farfa voiced my exact opinion on whats wrong with snake eyes. Decks should have choke points, and should have deminishing returns. For example if you play against yubel, and ghost ogre Nightmare pain, they would miss 1-2 piece for the combo, and you dont have to attack yubels. If you imperm the beckoning beast, they have less extenders. If you hand trap any slightly older deck, they just go SP, pass. But if you hand trap a snake eye twice, and they have extenders, they just make the same end board and you handlooped yourself for 3.
While Josh is right that the "average player" isn't making money and hobbies aren't inherently profitable, it seems really weird that people who are the FACE of yugioh, unless they have some other form of self-driven profit (i.e. from TH-cam or Twitch) are still playing yugioh at a loss. Compare that to other games or e-sports which have a much lower barrier of entry price where the top players are provided with sponsorships. Konami should be trying to hold onto these people. Providing nearly nonexistent prizing to the top players is terrible for player retention at both the highest and lowest levels of play because even Casuals enjoy rooting for pro players. It feels like Konami is just clueless on how to properly monetize their game outside of gambling and is this painfully evident in their last financial report from August 2024 where the company itself operates on a RAZOR THIN profit margin. I don't think Prizing *can* change until Konami itself adapts itself for the modern gaming environment.
They aren’t playing the game at a loss. Josh brings this up. Winning nets you several thousand, just not in direct cash. Hess’s issue when you boil it down was that wasn’t good enough.
Love the discussion. I would like to see more card design discussion from the "what is fun for both players" view. When you talk about toxic and unhealthy cards-design. That should be top priority. I think card design in archtype have to start getting more effects to keep up, WHILE my opponent plays, rather than just stop/destroy him with Handtraps/Bordbreakers.
Modern Yugioh will never be fun for both players. The power scaling is just too high for it. Konami seems to be content with one player feeling good per game alternating back and forth based on who goes first or sees their side deck cards. Personally I don't like the sadistic game design of modern Yugioh which is why I quit playing.
@@geek593Modern Yugioh has had SO MANY good, interactive formats recently though? In the past two years, only the current format & full power Kashtira have been "draw the out" formats.
@@geek593 The PowerLevel does not exclude good interactive(fun) duels for both players :) For example Tearlaments was very fun if you liked the playstyle and both players could play their strategy, because they kept up with each others ressources. Sadly they seem not to have the right card designer staff for that to happen constantly.
Josh saying 99% hobbies in the world a person enjoys are net negative is absurd and wrong. He is the living proof of contradiction. He is one the most successful players in the game which has translated into being able to make an indirect living out yugioh. Fixing cars is hobby, and if you’re good at it you can net positive. Playing Sports in general start off is a hobby that has unlimited potential to net positive. The idea that large amounts of time and money invested into a hobby and should just expect to be net negative is a fallacy.
Cards like droll, shifter and the "maxx c" cards are countered directly by called by the grave and if they keep making this type of cards, called by should be at least at two copies. But if that happens people will complain about that you can't resolve shifter to end your opponents turn.
The main problem with this podcast is that it's a lot of Jess saying one thing and then Josh going "No, but I don't agree that [completely different thing]". Feels like kinda just talking past the guest instead of listening.
Can you give any examples of this? Jess said something and Josh brought up something completely unrelated to what Jess’s point was and didn’t address it at all?
I hate the “top players aren’t topping so the game has too much variance” argument. There are so many talented players that sink hours into getting better at the game that aren’t well known or just can’t travel as much. Well known players topping shouldn’t be an indicator on the state of the game.
L take if the players who consistently perform year after year get knocked out day 1 what’s more like field magically all getting better at once or that the format is less skill based
@@GalliwYGO or that we are in a healthy meta where more decks are viable to play, so the "pro's" complain about deck varierty and how they "can't" prepare for all decks.
It's such a weird argument. When she mentioned the combined world points about the topping players, like what if people can't just make it to every single event or something and they finally get to show up and show off
That is how you can tell Josh has never played a sport a day in his life. He thinks he's "competitive". Sports players have 10x the competitive mindset he does.
Millions of people watch Basketball… so there is way more money involved…. There is a big difference between that and YGO. Look at the amateur fight scene… those are all real people, really getting smashed in the head. You can’t compare that to the highest level of the sport.
This episode feels like Josh forgot there was even a guest on, and spent his time shadowboxing against the imaginary opponent that Konami wrote in his QandA script.
Unknown people topping isn’t a bad thing, it’s the best thing that can happen. The world of information gathering is shifting. Before TH-cam was a big thing, only those that had a community to test with were able to get an edge on the rest of the player base. Now everyone has an equal chance to win an event. You are not entitled to win only because you have played for a long time and put effort into the game for the last decade.
That’s not really what she was saying. The point being made was that in the current format, the game becomes more hand-dependent to the point that player skill matter less than your opening hand, which leads to skilled players losing games that they might have won. That’s not to say that the people who won didn’t deserve it, but just that the threshold of knowledge/skill you need to top is lower in a format like this one. So it’s not about the effort the players put in ten years ago, it’s about the work they’re putting in right now not being rewarded due to the format. Now, whether you think this is a good or bad thing is another issue entirely. Should lower skill players be able to win events over higher skill players in a tournament? I would argue “no,” but in a card game where luck should be a factor I don’t think it’s unreasonable to disagree.
@@Kintaku Yeah I absolutely agree. And yes Luck is a big Factor, and Jess should know best how big of a factor it is, because she herself has won through opening a Harpies Featherduster against a back row Deck in the Finals of a tournament.
@@hightidekraken sure But “pro’s” “fav’s” and “creator’s” still think they are entitled to win - this is problem in itself - and yes most of the time it is not their ego alone that makes them do it, it’s the masses, clinging to them like flies. Jess’s expectation is to win as much as possible, and if it is not her, then it should be one of the peers that carry the community. This way of thought would mean that no one else should be allowed to be a pro (both new and old players) except those that are already established. I just don’t like that way of thinking. People need to show up, win and gather even more new players into the fold. Konami is only interested in numbers - more engagement means more money and that can be a driving force in introducing prize money as a way of compensation. Yugioh has been stagnant for year’s - obviously because it has been big since way back before giving out money was even a thing.
I think he made the most "fair" take. He criticized because of Jess's exaggerated takes sometimes, but also agreed with her on a lot. The other video I saw was the most out of touch reaction.
If you have something called WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP that people have to compete against to win a spot, calling it "just a hobby" it's at very least stupid or at worst outright lie...
Having a world championship doesnt make it not a hobby. Getting a bunch of hobbyists together and trying to find out who's the best that day doesnt magically nake it a sport or career path.
@@gerbygerbs7705Ok but when your direct competition also have World Championships or at least big tournaments while also paying out so much more shouldn't it be in Konami's interest to also pay out at least the top players? If for no other reason than to stay competitive with other card games?
I disagree completely. Enthusiasts of many video games, such as Tetris, hold world championships every year. They all gather for the love of the game and meeting up with friends/competitors from other parts of the world. They are not doing it for the cash prize at the end...because more often than not, there is no cash prize for winning it. If Konami, as a business see it worthwhile offering professional contracts to top players in order to entice more people to come into the game, they are free to do so. But they are absolutely not obligated to do so.
@@nachohangover5104are you asking if it should be in their best interest to pay out more, or they should be obligated to pay out more? Because if it was in their best financial interest to pay out more, they would likely do it. They have clearly decided that they do not have to improve the prizing, and I don't think they are obligated to. Yes, it would be nice, but they shouldn't feel obligated to just because some players want it. It's a hobby not a job.
@@olympicpip9235 They're certainly not *obligated* to, no. But when top players are explicitly quitting to go play other games for that reason (or at the very least, starting to explore other card games more) and they're the only major card game with such low value prizing (even other card games without cash prizes give more valuable and/or cooler stuff) it's weird that Konami is sticking to their lack of prizing.
The thing about pricing is a weird one. As someone who works a normal 40h week and only plays ygo on the side. If i ever wanted to top a ycs or even worlds. I would need to spend so much more free time for it, that, at that point, it isnt a hobby anymore and its almost like a second job. Especially because people have more than just one hobby. So i think the high end of players, should be compensated for the amount of time and work they put into topping these events. Even if that means putting up cash prizes.
@RandomGuyCDN that's not true, that's a matter of opinions many people play competitive video games and make no money it just depends on the game. His take isn't wrong you just don't like it. But if im honest most people choose their hobbies as an escape or an out let from the stresses of daily life or as a way to make friends so he is correct when he says what he's been saying.
First of all, I really liked the podcast, guys. There's a point about the EUWCQ playoffs being so low, and I feel there are aspects that aren't taken into account. Depending on where the player lives, it's impossible for them to enter the playoffs because the tournaments in their country are very small. Another part is that aiming for the top of the playoffs means literally playing regionals every week and traveling, which incurs a significant cost. That said, I also wanted to highlight that we're talking about a top 64, which is extremely demanding to reach in the events, and in Yu-Gi-Oh! there are not only 64 good players, so it's normal for many people to be left out. People usually only pay attention to the well-known players in the game.
Would love to see someone like Anthony Alvarado. Won the SJC Goat Format is based on, and is currently one of the best Goat players around. Would be cool to hear from someone who dedicated themself to retro formats rather than “modern” YGO, why they do it, how it differs from playing a game that’s getting new cards every month, etc.
Josh needs to stop being so biased when discussing the game because any time Jess tried to bring up a point Josh inmediately goes on the defensive and tries to dismiss her going "well you play plants so your problem doesn't matter" which is so fucking rude Example 26:12 (Jess says she thinks blanket floodgate effects like droll are problematic for the game and joshua goes "well you play plants so your opinion doesn't matter to me"
@@SuperSilver316 yeah that was also a very weird example when nibiru is not the same kind of card as the cards jess is complaining about (maxxc, droll, shifter, mulcharmys)
If these players were payed like NBA players every one of them would make $10 from Konami and there would still be moaning. This is a big sport that attracts fans, they barely make shit from tournaments.
Cards that punish wombo combo are good. A high ceiling shouldn't be ultra-consistent. In an ideal world, over-extending would be so risky that people are forced to change their deck building philosophy.
They could just make alt art or a special rarity for top cut of tournament of cards that are played a lot (like hand traps) or very collectable cards. Different cards for different parts of the top cut to make either each jump or each significant cut off get a different prize. Doesnt cost a lot for Konami, would be very high in demand by the community and for someone who is more casual and maybe tops once in a lifetime means a lot more as well then a rubber mat.
wow i didnt truly understand mbts point about players sucking at communication about their game until now. this is so hard to listen to, from josh being dismissive most of the time to more than half an hour being spent on discussing one card combos as if those are the problem of this format and not unstoppable body-shitting engines with no restrictions and lingering handtraps
Nah Josh was right to be dismissive of whining about Purulia. Everybody was excited about that card when it dropped because it's known that going second sucks and this was a balanced way of making second better.
His argument was literally "I don't disagree because it makes perfect sense when you think about" but anyway I disagree because this doesn't negatively affect me
When you're putting so much money into this game just to pass the barrier for entry, with no guarantee of doing well or making prizing, and you consistently do well enough to place in top cuts of events, I feel the hobby should be self-sustaining at that point where competitive play is concerned, including travel. Josh's fixation of using the hobby as a job is obfuscating the point Jess is trying to make, which is that you aren't rewarded for your investment in YGO in a meaningful way, and that drives away both new and existing players. I don't think that Konami needs to start giving folks $10k for topping a YCS, but the existing prizing is literally crap I can win at my local arcade, AND it would still cost less than getting a competitive deck together. It's not that people pick up a game based on its prizing, though absolutely some do, but that people are putting it down because the prizing is awful, or they aren't investing in it because they don't see a purpose. The prizes are worth less than the cards you had to buy to get there. That's just bunk. I know people in real life who have stopped playing because they didn't find the game rewarding enough to keep up with. That's a retention problem the game can't afford, especially when, as was pointed out, we have an aging player base and have stalled on growth somewhat after the quarantine boom. YGO is unique enough to be fun and engaging for fans of other card games at a competitive level, but when it costs a grand to get a deck that competes and your prize for winning is worth $300-500USD max at the TOP TOP, why would they bother trying it? This kind of thing hurts the longevity of the game's competitive scene in a very tangible way because it makes it unappealing for players to transition into competitive. Kazuki Takahashi wasn't wrong for not wanting cash prizes in what was effectively a children's game, but the times have changed and the game's fan base has evolved and literally grown up. Even if we don't go toward monetary prizing, unique high-value collectibles would be a suitable enough replacement to get people to engage to a point, though not forever. Right now, playing this game is a money sink for competitive players, especially if we keep up the design decisions of the last three or four years, and non-competitive players aren't going to try moving into competitive spaces when they both won't be rewarded for doing so and actively have to spend money to do it.
Whether someone wants it to be self-sustaining is completely irrelevant. Players of any game do not have the right to decide what they should get out a game, the only right players have is to decide whether they want to play or not. If I am the best in the world at rock, paper scissors and I travel the world to compete with people, that's my choice. I can't just decide I should be paid for that. Players have the choice to invest as much or as little as you want to compete. Konami should improve prize support but they have decided not to so if the cost of the hobby out-weighs the enjoyment or return is the reason someone is playing, then YGO is not for them. The amount of money involved is completely irrelevant.
@@BlueBloodPenn this argument is so insanely boring. who are you even talking to? nobody is talking about "rights," as if there's some potential for legislative push on behalf of the players to force konami to do anything, you're boxing against ghosts dude. and this comparison to rps is asinine. do you have to buy new fingers every few months to keep up with the rps meta? are some of your fingers banned occasionally so you can't do scissors? is rps-and-co releasing a new nuclear fusion move that you can only do with two hands if you bought enough lottery tickets at your local gas station?
Your whole argument is exactly what Josh disagreed with. It's fair and completely reasonable to have that opinion, a lot of other people do. But he already addressed everything about this and expressed why he personally disagreed. Josh is fine with a hobby being expensive, without expecting any return, because everyone has the right to choose to begin with if they wanna pursue a hobby based on every factors (how much they enjoy it, the price, the benefit, the return if any, etc). Even if you still don't get anything for being the best in the world on your hobby, he thinks it's still worth doing if he's still having fun and is still able to financially sustain that hobby through his main job. If you disagree (which is completely understandable) then just quit the hobby and find another one that fits better for your criterias.
@@nico-wj1mh Konami has never presented the game and prize structure to be anymore than what it is. Players know that, so quiting because of it doesn’t make sense since it was never the reason to play competitive in the first place.
I think Josh is kinda off-base with his "I don't think a hobby NEEDS to return on your investment". Sure, playing 'House on Haunted Hill' probably shouldn't be paying my bills (if I'm not making content around it), but a pro player of any game is just that: a pro. There's a line you cross where it's more than a hobby. You spend your time playing the game, or preparing to play. You're on the hook for news, and updates, and most of it matters to you. At that point, it's not just a hobby. And while it doesn't HAVE to pay for your mortgage, at a minimum, if you represent the highest echelon of players, it should pay for itself. Heck, players like Josh, Jesse and Jess are practically faces for the game to the player-base. Why can pro competitive eaters do that full-time, but no YGO players? It might be that YGO doesn't have huge sponsors or teams, like other games have. Is the game so unfriendly that people would rather watch League of Legends gameplay than YGO? What needs to change to get that going? With league teams, you could make a living playing the game without cash prizing. Obviously, opinions are just opinions, but sometimes you need to ask WHY things function the way they do.
It's also an extremely expensive hobby to compete in. Decks are expensive and travel is even more expensive. Winning a 2000 person event should at least allow you to break even on your deck and flight.
Because there are no pro YGO players. Competitive players are not sponsored or paid to compete and place at events. "Pro YGO player" is a term from the community for people that go to alot of top tier events and place often but that has nothing to do with making it financially viable. There is no line to cross, it's completely imaginary. Konami hasn't made it financially viable because they don't currently view that as part of the game. YGO is a collectable card game with competitive tournaments. Your choice as a player if you enjoy the game is to decide how much you want to commit knowing what the game is. People are projecting what they want the game to rather than evaluating what it is. If I wanted to be a pro in Monopoly and be paid by it, it is not my right to then critic the game if that is not possible.
@@mattgibson9337 exactly mine and Josh's point. It's an entitled mind set to think that because you do something or achieve something you should be financially rewarded because of it simply because other people are in other areas.
A simple Raigeki or Mirror force should be the ceiling for Card Design while making it meta relevant to break through hand traps and negates board.. (Dont make them auto-lose after a single Raigeki but promote so they want to bring defensive traps when their board gets cleaned up)... Yes, I know that sounds easier than done but at least they can TRY 🎉
well, if yugioh is simply a hobby then gah dayum it is expensive af. better to just play a less expensive game. no? and leave yugioh to the people who can afford it....which is fewer and fewer every day. yep.
@fernie6299 yep, maybe eventually the Flat Earther at my locals will leave after waisting money on QCSR Snake eyes and Diabellstar cards. I just want the game to stop being floodgate effect or lock-out turbo. Yes, I'm guilty of playing a Yubel deck that wants to lock-out the opponent. Or just run my Yubels into their big atk monster to burn for game. Still a shit play style.
he literally played white forest, they lose to droll, they get hit by mulcharmy. He just thinks there should be checks and balances to what is in yugioh terms, unlimited power
I've said this many times: Lingering effect handtraps are NOT THE problem. The problem is when handtraps AUTO-WINS(shifter, Maxx C, G3 dogwood). 1-card combo decks/engines are NOT THE problem. The problem is when they make AUTO-WIN Endboards(snake-eye, plants, puppet lock, floodgates).
Dogwood has been relevant in 2 formats. Tear and this one, and even in this one it wasnt an auto-win. Go check the match, it was done at 16-17minutes and was used to give the tenpai time to fight off protos and stall it out. Thats honestly a healthy use of the card. Given that its only been relevant for 2 formats, saying its an auto-win sounds dishonest.
“They arent the problem” proceeds to name several huge times they’ve been problems. They have rarely ever been healthy unless contained to some bad archetype or are just weak overall
one idea to fix the game is to have a limited to the amount of extra deck summonings like for example you can only summon 4 extra deck monsters per 1 full turn
Im glad everyone is holding Josh to task after watching this episode, dude is clearly blinded to Konamis faults due to his own personal success with the game; alot of his stance comes off as bad faith at best, and downright being a konami schill at worst. Not a great look at all imo.
Idk, theres no reason to expect to play a game and have it pay your bills. Prize support can of course be better but i dont see the value of playing a game i dont enjoy as much for the chance of winning money. Even further there, nost of the people complaining about support are never going to win the prizes anyway. How many people do you sti across that have a regionals or ycs playmat or sleeves that they didnt buy? So many of the casuals complaining about prizing are the sane guys showing up to locals every week to go 2-2.
@@gerbygerbs7705Prize support definitely isn't the first issue I would address with Yugioh. But it still is a legitimate issue. Top players are part of drawing in new players and keeping a community and loyal playerbase around a game. If top players keep quitting that can reduce the rate at which new players come in or players stick around even at the casual level. If nothing else it seems pretty dumb for Konami to not want to have better prizing if for no other reason than to stay more competitive with their direct competition who are paying out and/or are at least way cheaper.
Farfa actually agree with Jess, to the point the discussion becomes a bit heated before he defused the situation. There is a long segment where it's just Farfa and Josh debating about it and Jess quietly staring at them.
Hobbies and professions are two different things. Josh doesn't even agree with these basic things. What are you talking to him about? He has completely become a slave to Konami and a fool
Some pro players and yugitubers can't afford to quit Yu-Gi-Oh (or the TCG) due to their sponsorships, contractually or not. Some of them pay their bills thanks to it. Starting from scratch a different TCG means they might lose, at least, part of their main income for a while. It's not easy to become a pro player and get new sponsors for a new TCG. So, for many, its not ideal to take that step. Imagine TSX1 quitting the competitive scene (Pak and Jesse are part of the team). That won't make sense for his main sponsor (SP) in terms of prestige and visibility over its main market (TCG players). I mean, the main reason why those brands sponsor pro players is because of the image (prestige, visibility) those players have on the market that brands are trying to appeal.
This makes a ton of sense. Though, I wish pro players and collectors Konami would stop flooding Konami’s wallets with these power creeps. The card designs have been terrible and the prices of been outrageous. Not to mention, travel and hotel expenses are becoming more steep to enjoy these live events. I wish there was more of a focus on players to make MasterDuel the official TCG format and move away from in person tournaments.
Im totally agree that the prices should be better for the persons that dedicates so many hours a day for many weeks or even months preaparing for the event sometimes sacrificing other valuable activities. Even if your goal is just having fun you can barley call it a hobby for the amount of time required to top a big event. Besides the experiences and recognition the prices should reflect your hardwork and passion.
@@ducky36FBecause he still makes most of his income from Yugioh, but it’s from TH-cam and Twitch. Expecting every top player to also become a content creator is not reasonable. Similarly expecting people to spend thousands on cardboard and travel on top of the hundreds of hours spent practicing without a return is equally unreasonable. As many people have said, it doesn’t have to literally be cash prizing.
@@vivistaples He has a degree in software engineering, got an offer from a company to work for $7k/mo and refused that to do YGO content instead (which obviously makes less) because he loves the game. If you watched the video (which you probably didn't fully), he already said that he just doesn't want to base all his life decisions around making more money. He's doing content creating now because that's what he enjoys and it works out. If it doesn't he would just do software engineering instead as his main job, and still play YGO.
For me, cards like Mulcharmy, Maxx C, and Dimension Shifter are particularly frustrating to play against because they can be activated immediately going second. They are proactive. It's not something that can be played around like Nib/Droll. Both of which are powerful cards. End a turn kind of cards. But they, like most other handtraps, are reactive. That reactive space is immensely important for being able to "play around it." A deck should have to trade off an end board piece to beat Nibiru or play lower to the ground to play around Droll. That decision space, for me, is where YUGIOH thrives. For me, having more "proactive hand traps" does impact theory crafting when they are all considered meta. The increase in these kinds of card effects (I expect) will have a negative affect on my (and others) enjoyment of the game. Before Mulcharmy, Shifter deck would have a 40% chance of seeing Shifter in its opener every game. Now in at least 1 game of the match you should expect 65% (3 Mulcharmy, 3 Shifter). Or in all of the games if it's Tempi! By adding even a second card to this mix we have jumped from "you will likely see a proactive hand traps in your opener at least once" to "statistically speaking you should see a proactive hand trap in 2 of every 3 games." (Almost)
Lingering handtrap in general is bad already Can you imagine your opponent could thrown skill drain or mistake or any other continous floodgate directly from your hand on first turn?
@abdurachmanromzy4778 I'm not going to disagree that lingering effects are, as currently designed, bad. I think that these cards would be better designed (balanced, healthier, etc.) if they had a reactive element to them: like Droll. I have no issues with the design of Droll. Most decks can play around it and the ones that can't are usually much more resilient to other forms of interaction. But due to its reactive nature, it incentives finding lower to the ground lines that can play around it. Purulia -> "When your opponent summons a monster from the hand: you can discard this card from your hand (quick effect); ..." Shifter -> "If a card is sent to your opponents GY by card effect while you have no cards in your GY: you can discard this card; ..." I like the idea of Perulia being a "when" effect because it creates a decision point on the 1st summon from hand of "do I ash blossom or do I Perulia" whilst preserving the possible double punish in Perulia + Veiler/Imperm For Shifter it's trickier but the intention is to allow for at least 1 card to hit the GY before it can be activated. Idealy this allows for more lines to available if someone wants to play around Shifter. An example could be Horus. Proactive Shifter shuts down a hand of Imsety+Hapy, but reactive Shifter allows for that initial play to go through and get 2 bodies on the board and the continuous spell. Maybe you leave them on board. Maybe you normal a veiler and link into I:P to try and go into S:P on your opponents turn for a couple of interruptions. Maybe you go for Felgrand XYZ. My point is that a lingering effect that leaves options can be done and my hypothesis is that shifting (pun intended) to them would be better for the game than both the current design space and getting rid of them all together.
@@scottwheler177 im somewhat agree,however its seems like making lingering effect that doesnt prevent any play was quite hard, considering that most of its effect (not the trigger clause) are pretty much passive in that sense that you can just active it for once and it'll remain there for the turn (or twice per turn for shifter) Where most of handtrap like ash just stop a single action in interaction A bit weaker from duration (if compared with backrow floodgate),but the idea was a still same Maybe more harsh could do a trick,like droll require your opponent to do the action first before it can be activated,not the one that could just be thrown at start of duel like max c or shifter
My version of a rule change like Farfa's 1 normal summon per main phase, I think Trap cards should be activatable once the phase has passed (perhaps other than end phase). Improves them going second.
Damn, I usually really respect Josh's opinions and criticism but he was really defensive to not let even a small critique from Jess hit. Super depressing to see what honestly just feels like shilling
I gotta question for Farfa, Josh, and Jess. Why don’t the pro players start more of their own tournaments and orgs with sponsors? They can even do it over MasterDuel and save yourselves the cost of travel and we would definitely donate way more to the prize pool than any live event. Whenever Farfa watches MD tourney duels on Twitch is it a great experience. Honestly, we will donate to watch the best players duel. Watching Pros duel in MasterDuel against the best players in the U.S, EU, and other parts of the world for more prize pool money on stream is a better viewing experience than hearing about results through a live event that presents so many issues. Plus, there can be an agreed upon banned/unbanned format to help bring variety. It is inevitable that Fiendsmith is going to take over the meta and recreate the same problems that will hit in-person tournaments. I would love to hear your take on this post, because I truly believe yourself and the other pros have an opportunity to make the game a better viewing experience for everyone in the community.
Konami, WotC and TPC/TPCI run tournaments as literal loss leader and the tournaments are also huge marketing tools for franchises. Look at all the 3rd party companies that no longer run tournaments. Star city games used to be a huge MTG circuit that ran parallel to WotC's tournaments and once covid hit it basically killed them along with WotC not wanting to cooperate with them anymore. Also gotta pay for venues (whos rental prices have also sky rocketed in recent years and you gotta book those like years in advance), pay staff and tournament organizers. That's alot of hassle for literally no payoff for 3rd party organizers, they held on as long as they could until the bubble popped.
I think in regards to prizing, the term we're trying to find is "rewarding". Becoming a top player in yugioh doesn't feel as though its rewarding enough when you reach that level. It doesn't mean it has to fund itself entirely, but it needs to give something worthwhile back for all the commitment and resources that was put into reaching that level and yugioh is just not doing that.
Josh is just the better player. Bruh aint quitting and figuring ways around cards ppl whine about. Even on md. Maxx c challenge, sure ill take it end on bouncer lock. Smh the sword always whines when the shield comes into play. Gotta learn to chop at the knees.
1:11:24 I can’t tell if Josh is purposely doing this because of his ego or something, or if he’s genuinely misunderstanding the point. The original point was: (prarphrasing) “Other card games are more respectably compensating their TOP players, and so it becomes much LESS burdensome financially to put a bunch of time into their respective card games, since you’re actually getting worthwhile compensation for your time at the highest level. No one thinks the AVERAGE player should have their hobby funded by the company lol. Josh used this strawman argument MULTIPLE times throughout the conversation, and it was very frustrating to see them talk past each other over and over again. Josh was doing a very good job shadowboxing his made up issues but never actually addressed what Jess was actually trying to get at (admittedly because she wasn’t as articulate as Josh.)
@@GutsmanLoL I think it is as Farfa said Josh is speaking from a privilege point of view. Also, I believe because Josh is an “old head” with 20+ years in the game that prizing has always been terrible and he’s accepted that and not quit, so why should anyone else feel different. Even if Konami’s poor management of the Yugioh game has led to so many real players issues.
I took a break from the Yugioh TCG and Master Duel for a few reasons: autopilot decks, lack of diversity, the high cost, and the fact that no one wants to watch someone play solitaire and then just go to game 2 because they lock you out of the game.
Anything particular you’d like to argue? Or are you just a parrot that will just side with the game bad me unhappy without a thought in your head? Yeah people having different opinions on a situation are really shills tbh
@zell245 I just feel the "prizing isn't that important it's about the fun of the game" take he has is a little too.....how do I say it rose tinned glasses, he literally called himself Konami's strongest soldier he's simpin rn
@@detective_0267 Yeah except that's literally what everyone that competes does it for. Because there's no real prizing. No one disagrees that better prizing should exist. Josh isn't saying there shouldn't be, but his take is what's happening in the real world where people play the game. For everyone that cares about the game, is competitive in it and attends events. Brother is literally saying that it's not what matters to HIM(and most people let's be real, most of us have regular jobs), not that Jess or anyone that choose to walk out isn't entitled to it or shouldn't WANT something better. People in online spaces are so desperate for personalities to blankly agree with their cause that anyone having a more neutral stance is an enemy. Like Josh is preventing prizing from coming, or if he threatened to quit like the dozen specific known names on twitter would be what tips the scale.
When it comes to one card combos, loci and plants have choke points and locks you, Fiendsmith stuff is a one card combo that is a backup plan for every deck AFTER the main combo by going into moon of the closed sky just like Verte Anaconda with any two monsters
Josh came off as very defensive and bluntly condescending at times. I get that it's a passionate topic, but it kinda invalidates the entire podcast if he's going to get like that. Most points were subjective but damn, at least pretend to respect other opinions and let others finish their thoughts before commenting. 🙄
My main takeaway is that with 1 card combos/engines is that they should limited via Main Deck in-archetype cards. Something like how Unchained Soul of Rage requires an Unchained Soul card. Why? Pile Decks are fun an interesting, but should be limited via archetypal locks (Promention/Spirit with Eyes of White/Soul of Rage) and bridges being very specific. (E.I. Mudcracker0 Also, I do wish there were more variance to how disruption works. E.I Stealth Kraken, Subversion, Flip face-down, Battle Positions, Columns, Dna Surgery.
My biggest problem with Josh's argument that you shouldn't expect a hobby to be profitable is that for most people, even with yugioh prizing lets say utopia world and you make enoguh to sustain your life on winning tournaments, would still mean yugioh is not profitable for most people. Nobody is saying winning locals should get a massive cash prize or winning a regional either. For most people yugioh will still be a hobby. It starts becoming less of a hobby when playing at YCS, nats or wcq and worlds events where there are thousands of people playing and they are not common as they require so much time investment and planning to be able to compete. People want to get a bit more value out of that planning and practice rather than a rubber mat or just nothing. Plus, he says he plays the game for the love of the game and expects no reward and that's his opinion and changes nothing if people are getting cash prizes or better value material prizes at top level events. It changes nothing about his enjoyment of the game but means more people get rewarded for putting in the time and practice. Giving people better prizes just makes a lot more people more willing to compete and try without changing anything about the game. Edit: On reward you should expect the company to reward you, as you are paying them money for the cards and entry to just participate in the event.
It’s a fair point that other splashable engines all had major restrictions. Brave token took away normal summon effects, orcust locked into dark, verte locked into fusion etc.
I think the strength of a 1 card combo depends on how intractable it is, normal summon Lila only gets you a link four and a draw, normal summon tour guide and ze Amin are borderline ftk’s but they also lose to almost every handtrap
Saw a different side of Josh this episode. Pretty disappointing. Even just the way he rolls his eyes at points being made. We get it, you enjoy the game for being strictly a hobby and don't care about financial reward. (I'm in this camp as well.) It doesn't mean there should be ZERO financial reward for doing well. Konami literally gives 0 fucks about the TCG and has been farming them with predatory rarities for years now. I'm glad people are finally saying enough is enough.
He said himself he agrees that there should be more prizing, but his argument is that yugioh as a hobby is much more than just turning a profit or not, and poor prizing is not a valid reason for quitting the game.
@@trainergold749 Jess (and others as far as I'm aware) aren't quitting the game JUST because of prizing (which Farfa had to sum up at the end). So the argument just comes off as super defensive and reductive. I could understand if it was the sole reason Jess is quitting the game but it's just not.
The main thing that Konami really need to work on is making players feel "rewarded". That doesn't need to be cash prizes, buy definitely a better reward, or at the very least recognition system for its top top players. The Hall of fame idea mentioned would be a great idea for yugioh
Man, this is rough to listen to. Why does it feel like the language to fully articulate the problems with game and product design is just missing in the yugioh community?
@@CamerronEstes I'll use the 'Game Design' stuff as an example. There's a lot of consistent stumbling where a problem card is pointed out or a trend is gestured to a bit too vaguely. From the pod, Josh replies at Mulcharmy, saying it's fine right now and Jess doesn't have a good rebuttal despite bringing up Shifter. The game design-y response is to connect how power creep amplifies the impact of hand traps and floodgates. They are card negative-tempo positive plays meant to stop A+B combos. But, game has warped to a point where card advantage is almost meaningless while tempo is everything because most proactive cards generate near infinite value. Old yugioh heuristics of 2 for 1s, 1 for 1s, etc, don't matter if the one card left on your board/gy generates a full board with no hoops to jump through (no hoops that aren't just deck building considerations). As the game increases in power, that generally trends towards more game actions within less turns, phases, and cards used even. With more game actions per deck, the chances of even narrow hate cards affecting the wider meta increases. Every deck searches every turn. Almost every deck uses the GY. Every deck uses the Extra. Poplar suggests that every deck will eventually have hybrid starter/extenders from hand. The range of effects that all decks need to be functional grows via creep. Like Shifter not being back breaking at first, Hand Mulcharmy might not be oppressive today, but it is a matter of when. Rounding this back to 'why quit'. If cards are being printed today that will become obviously oppressive tomorrow, and that keeps happening, what confidence do I have in the designers curating a fun experience? (Not a YGO player anymore, just stepping in the shoes there) edit: Extra aside on Hand Traps/Floodgates. Yugioh being a resourceless game is actually a huge detriment in the obliquity of these cards too. There isn't much of a cost in including these cards in any and every deck. If you don't like the play experience of these cards, it can be suffocating when they are present in the meta.
I feel like we are conflating decent prizing for making a living off the game here. At the top end of the sport the amount of effort that goes into it is far beyond just a hobby, the amount of money sunk into it is far beyond a hobby. If it should be as light hearted and light effort investment as football with the boys for example, then sure no prizing etc. but if I'm expected to buy pro equipment, train my ass off, travel around etc there should at least be decent pricing to renumerate my efforts no? No one says it has to be a livable wage, but it should certainly be better than what it currently is. Also I think Josh is insanely defensive of Konami on this issue. it's weird. But to each their own.
Quite frankly when Jess quits 5 more top players step up with the thought of “oh there’s an opening, this is my chance” and that’s why one person or even a group will change anything. Play the game or don’t is what it comes down to honestly despite your opinion that you are absolutely entitled to
It's amazing how between this and his reaction video on his own channel Josh went from being one of my favorite people in yugioh to someone I'm unfollowing everywhere. He went into this with his mind made up and was not open to legitimate discussion. He is not able to recognize his many privileges and his situation. He cannot empathize with others when their views or opinions don't apply to him. I'm honestly pretty disappointed. I hope Jess is able to find enjoyment and better treatment in other games she plays.
Jess and farfa will only push for more radical BS until the game is unsustainable. Josh is in a no win scenario because he actually makes sense, meanwhile Jess and farfa want to turn in the money printer and devalue everything lol
by far the most interesting podcast episode but hard to enjoy it when Farfa and Josh just keeps attacking Jess and force her to constantly defend herself every time she makes an opinion
Josh is the wrong person to ask about prizing when his YCS win at Prague in 2017 resulted in his now-fiancé sliding into his DMs. Bro won the ultimate prize.
is that actually the story XDD?
He's also a successful content creator, partially by the merit of his Yugioh skills, and has finished a degree in software engineering. He's safe pretty much no matter what.
Wait, you not lying? 😂
imma be real with you, that's a weird way to talk about someone else's partner lmaoo
@@zianitoriI don't think they're objectifying his fiance but just saying it's a huge part of his life
52:59 it's okay Jess you can keep mentioning plant, Josh mentions Runick all the time 😂
And Paleo, mate the next guest is a former designer and we're talking about Rollback and Daruma of all possible interesting cards
A hobby is a casual few hours a week. Topping a ycs or even regionals requires hours of hard work and dedication that is beyond categorizing it as a mere hobby. At that level it's a sport, and players deserve better compensation for their devotion.
Exactly, I feel Josh saying you shouldn't expect a hobby to be profitable still works if ycs events have good prize support as 99% people will not make or ever expect to make a profit from this game as they just don't have skill or talent to devote to it. For those who do have the skill and time, they should be appropriately rewarded for it.
as long as there are no pro players in Yugioh then its just a hobby. u dont sign employment contract. till then its just a hobby.
They get several thousand for it. And since randos turn up with pet decks to regionals and win, it does not take as long as your saying
Spoken like someone who's never had a hobby that they loved.
Spoken like a true tourist.
Loci is different from Fiendsmith Engraver because to play loci you have to run 6 bricks (Regulus, Ragnaraika Samurai Beetle, Sunseed Twin, Aromage Laurel, Humid Winds, Rikka Sheet) whereas to play fiendsmith you only have to run 1 brick (Fabled Lurrie). Therefore, it takes more deck-building skill to make an engine with 6 bricks work vs 1
Not only that, but it isn't splashable everywhere since you'll get plant locked at some point. You can't splash that engine everywhere and still play your deck like normal.
i dont say fiendsmith is more fair than loci no shot, but the plants endboard has super strong interaactions while appo ip desirae is very tame in comparison (problem is that fsse haas handtraps to back it)
And Lurrie isnt even a brick if you run multiple Engravers since you just look for the Graveman and discard the Lurrie anyways
the thing about the prizing is, it doesn’t necessarily have to be a cash prize but something that holds value. printing cool, unique cards as a prize would make a huge difference so people like josh can keep them as a reward and people like jess can sell for a profit. people love collecting and there’s been a lot of good ideas like the winner gets to pick which card they want in an exclusive ‘champ rarity’ or alt art that are usable in the game
This take I agree with. No one would say no to a little more effort in prizing even if some people would still clown on it because they will only be happy with $$
Idk why they don’t do serialized cards
I mean, just look at the multi million dollar one of a kind BLS. That was a tournament prize, wasn’t it? Just do that, give people one of a kind prizes that are worth a few dozen grand for the bigger events. A Nintendo switch is fucking sad, assuming you even get one.
Hell just print unique rarities of staples and its perfect has value as both a collection piece, a playable card and a cash out
I think they should make a custom qcr with the art as the competitor's picture and the name the place they got. Its unique and rewarding and it doesn't even take much.
Was it just me or did Josh seem very defensive this episode? It felt like he was in therapy because he's in a toxic relationship with Konami and Farfa was the therapist trying to play the voice of reason, trying to get Josh to admit Konami is toxic to some degree with their relationship with their top talent. But he was unwilling to do so and kept talking about the good things that happened to him independent of Konami to try and dismiss what the other 2 were saying. Because acknowledging Konami has let so many people down would be a very hard fact to deal with.
Josh sounds like an employee defending his bosses when his boss doesn't care about the employees
Yeah josh, jesse k, pak and the team samx1 crew are all Konami sheep lol
If he wasn't there it would've just been a circlejerk of hating Konami AKA, a boring convo; having a Devil's Advocate for discussions like this is great, and I think Josh played the role fine
@Acholight in terms of having a conversation/ discussion your right foresure. I did like that they did have jess on here, the sam, pak, ( idk who the third person was) video that discussed this was a bit of a circle jerk compared to here.
He felt super defensive to me too
I think Jess' argument about more cards in the engine correlating to a higher ceiling one-card combo makes sense. It would be in a way a correlation between investing deck space for power. So engines that have 15 cards should be in comparison only half as strong as an engine that contains 30 cards. Then, the balance between the engines would be that the 15 card engine would have more hand traps (interruptions) and the 30 cards would have to go through them.
Snake-Eyes Fiendsmith has two small engines that are as consistent and powerful as a big engine like plants, that get the privilege to also include hand traps, so it gets the best of both worlds. I think the balance of the scales will always be broken and it will come back again, but that's the gist of how I see it.
On the topic of restrictions: I agree with Jess too. I think there should be more restrictions, especially like the Ragnaraika locks. They're tri-type, which allows for experimentation, while still limiting a considerable amount of the card pool. There's a saying that goes like "scarcity is the mother of creativity," but discussions talk of it being necessity instead. In the case of the game, I like thinking that the fuel of this necessity is the mix of a shallower card pool, as well as the interest in making a strategy/deck stronger, more consistent or just more fun. I think these niches that get filled by specific types, or attributes or archetypes have so much potential and I think they are so full of flavor that make the game more diverse and interesting. Also for some reason this makes me think of all of the anime seasons, where every character represents exactly this: a niche - a personality - a play style!
When thinking about pricing, I feel like I agree with both.
Josh's point about it being something you invest in because you like it and it rewards you non-monetarily is absolutely correct. I know of people who buy those crazy 6k€ Leica analog cameras, and "the only thing they get" are the pictures they themselves take. If they can sell them for lots of money or if they just store them in an album, then who cares? They're happy about it.
Jess' point is also incredibly important, which is basically feeling seen by Konami. There should be an inherent feeling of "Konami actually cares about their players" associated to the whole yugioh environment.
Competitively, players should be respected by at least receiving quality-of-life improvements like getting flights and accomodation. Since Takahashi didn't want money involved in pricing, there should be something there that equals out at least part of the time and money that has been invested in the game by buying product. Money would be an easy answer, but what else could it be? Maybe a trip to Japan? Maybe some sort of design contribution of a card or part of a card for the posterity of the game? There's got to be something.
Non-competitively, I think the environment is still bad, since the OCG gets multiple rarities and more card accessibility. Products are very hit-or-miss and prices are skyrocketing because chase cards are also the cards that are the most interesting or powerful, while the bulk is commons that WILL get banned (INFO!!!) or fun but terrible stuff like Wonky Quartet that is literally only there as a folklore reference.
Lower prices and access to staple cards like in the Rarity Collections has been a delight, but now that they are getting banned after becoming accessible is what makes it a bitter experience. I feel like I'm being played for wanting to own Baronne de Fleur or Apollousa. Sometimes I feel like the game paywalls and tempts me to get strong cards, and then gives me a little taste of the good cards with reprints before they become inaccessible again via the banlist or because they're not relevant anymore. I can only associate it with a low quality of life. I don't know how to describe it in a better way.
I don't know how other card games deal with this, but I think Jess' wish of having at least some benefits as a high-ranking player is fully understandable and it should get better.
And yeah if they changed the field spell rules back, it would just be a matter of adding a rule that states something like: "two field spells activated simultaneously don't destroy each other", or just adding a new line of text to fields that can cohabitate with others.
Rare Yugioh big brain take. Gotta love to see it.
Great points, well articolated
"why not just play decks that doesn't die to shifter". that's how Josh sounds about Mulcharmy btw
With all due respect Josh as person who started playing One Piece day 1 it is relatively easy to make money. Going even 6-3 in a regional often nets you 500$ minimum. For the first year of the game, I literally sold my tournament pack for playing at locals consistently for 40$ each and the game actually gave me a net positive for playing even if that was not my intent. Winning a local event after taking a break of the game literally won me a 500$ prize card which is the only way I could afford 1 single yugioh deck. Not to mention I spent 300$ total in the beginning to purchase every deck in one piece and didn't need to spend more money for an entire year to continue owning every deck. Josh is wearing rose tinted glasses because his financial situation does not cause him a barrier to entry of owning every card. I mean sometimes even company's will send him some sealed product. I literally had to put another 500$ of my own money with the money I won to even get a playable deck and then it demanded another 700$ a month or two later and I couldn't even afford to continue so I basically wasted 1000$ on 1 month of entertainment.
you dont need a 1000$ deck to get enjoy yugioh. a reasonably good deck costs 100-200$. playing meta decks when they come out is for whales.
@@tmgn7588hey, maybe meet the conversation where it is
@@tmgn7588and isn’t that expensive ever.
Sunk cost fallacy keeping the guy from not having a bias view on the topic.
@@tmgn7588 Which is why comp players are leaving.
Josh came off very tone-deaf in this discussion and even farfa called him out on it.
Really would have preferred at least a discussion on pricing/prizing and what could be done rather than "Well I would never quit, if you don't like it here go do something else you find fun".
I understand both hosts work with Konami but you can still have a discussion without coming off so hostile to a topic both their guest and a majority of his chat were bringing up.
Hard watch.
I think they managed to keep it very civil despite the huge disagreements here.
Farfa actually also did a good job of middle-manning and reducing the tension.
@@luckyjc8702 agreed but out side of that this was a unproductive conversation mainly of Josh’s part because skewed view.
Josh sounds like the boss pushing the pizza party on everyone instead of a raise when he talks about prizes lol.
Except yugioh isn’t a job and we’re theoretically here to have fun 😂
like if I was top 100 in the world at any hobby, I would expect to get paid for getting a top placing in a tournament. Josh on his stream said something about golf clubs and sports equipment being expensive but you shouldn't expect a return on investment, but if I was a top in the world golfer I would expect money from a tournament. Even if my hobby was hot dog eating I would expect a cash prize for being one of the best in the world.
@@TrevorRox6thats just a wrong mindset right? Its cool that some hobbys have cash prizes, but I don't think you should expect something to come when you are good at your hobby. Its nice to have but shouldn't be necessary for you to grind your hobby
@@naxy_7 but you recognize the difference between being given a few OTS packs at locals and Jess being one of like two dozen people that got invited to a Worlds that year right? There should be more incentive than having your name written on a website for being one of the best players. Prizing could be so much better without costing Konami that much money like they could print an alt art version of a staple card with NAWCQ 2024 printed in the corner, print 16 or 32 and they would be worth infinitely more to the players than the cardboard they are printed on.
@@ducky36F Except that Konami does make a shitload of money off of it, in big part because top players keep promoting and representing the game. It's not like they're asking for handouts.
Damn this episode felt weird. I do.not know exactly what made it feel like that. Maybe that josh was to insistent wit his arguments or that jess was nervous. It felt tense
Dragon Link was the perfect deck with a 1.5 card combo with choke points and you all took it for granted.
“Please Unhit Dragon Link. Thank You” -Dragon Link Streamer Man
Dragon link actually takes skill to play
Konami scared of our power legit striker has no reason to be limited also, the deck feels bad due to the format I've tried playing 50 cards but I think I am going to 43 cause I have been having consistency issues with the deck, but overall I'll keep playing it, I do however need a set of Purulia or the fiendsmith engine to kinda make the deck work better even though I want to keep playing the deck just rn it's not in the budget.
Edit: Just for clarification, I was playing 50 cause of the fact last format was open 2 hts or you lose this format is like well I get shifter if my hand is decent maybe I can do something, but I think I am going 43 and resorting to floods which I did not want to do.
@@Jerry4281 I’d love to see your brews, we’re all over the place right now.
Obviously nowadays we need consistency more than anything because of how hard we’ve gotten hit but in the past that’s what the best part of Dragon Link is that we don’t have bricks unless we just draw a hand of 5+ level monsters but we just have soft bricks and we have the ability to play 40 to 50 cards without it feeling bad. It’s like Trish’s and Tempests 60 card Dragon Link deck in MD. It was super consistent as 60 card pile.
I agree!
i sense some bias here my friend xD
Prizing is 100% an issue, that can be addressed still honoring the original foundation. Should 100% addressed. Paying for travel and board is not paying someone so how hard is it Konami! Prizes also can be more exclusive and more valuable for sale for the winners if they so choose very easily
So if I wanted to travel to every YCS in the year, Konami should be paying me for that? Yes they can improve prizes but they do no want to, that's their right as the game owners. As players it is our right to choose to play the game or not, it is not our right however to demand to be compensated in the way we desire. If prize support is the reason someone wants to play the game then they should choose another game.
@@BlueBloodPennthe point goes beyond that I am top 10-20 in the game I expect more than just nothing or a deck box with sleeves. U can‘t get that in your head do you?
@@maniachd324 The tournaments tell you what the prizing is. Being good or successful at something doesn’t mean you should rewarded in a way that suits you. If you don’t think it’s worth it on some level or you want more then don’t play.
@@BlueBloodPenn I agree honestly, I more of ment for tops in world qualifying events maybe like top 4 or something but yeah I agree with that. It’s a hobby so you shouldn’t be looking to make money out of this but at the same time pricing can be more supportive without actually monetizing winners is what I mean t
@@maniachd324 topping at worlds as she said and walking away with nothing is a complete lie there’s multiple top players posting you get a goodie bag valued around 4K plus just for entering worlds so I don’t really agree with her point in that either
I usually side with Josh in many things, he brings different perspectives that are usually reasonable, but in this episode he is just wrong about the rewards and pay situation, he keeps comparing Yugioh to a hobby, and to most it is a hobby, but for the top players it is sport, it is a competitive sport, that requires a lot of time, effort, and even luck, and if we have video game players getting endorsed, paid salaries, and rewarded substantially well by their respective games, why can't Yugioh have something similar, other card games seem to give back more, and even just the idea of a unique prize card that someone can sell for a high amount would be really good as well.
If you expect to make a living off playing yugioh then you definitely have issues, even “top” players from back in then day understood this, josh is an old head as well so he makes sense, this is a hobby some are more expensive then others, you enter for fun if you don’t want to pay for the plan ride or hotel then wait for a ycs to be in your area or something, get a job that pays well and save some money up for such events that cost a lot, yugioh is a hobby, ppl need to stop thinking that you going to be next the aster Phoenix calling yourself a pro every 5 mins making ton of money lol
@@UTgohan There are plenty of games people play just as an hobby but the moment you bring out offical competition to the table that argument doesn't really hold itself up.
Pro sports players used to play their respective sports as a hobby until they realized they had insane skills to go to the next level. Imagine those guys making it big and the owners giving them a pat on the back and fuck all for money. Sadly I dont think Josh has ever looked into how half of the world or actual sports work. It's the same shit when you buy things that are crafted by people, those wood workers and glass blowers and stuff all started as a hobby or family business. Easy to earn big money on trades/crafting skills if your the best of the best of them. If your the best at YGO you get a shitty rando vanilla and a playmat and trophy that costs peanuts for Konami to buy.
@@RandomGuyCDNPeople that play pro sports realized they could make money because the owners of the teams were playing for were making mega money from tickets, advertising and tv deals. Konami isn't making that kind of money from the tournaments.
Expecting them to pay players enough to do this full-time while there aren't even as many events as there are games from other sports leagues and them having to foot the bill for the locations is ridiculous. Where is all that money going to come from? Olympic athletes are barely earning a living from their sports that are televised, but trading card players that barely get decent numbers on stream are going to make big bucks?
Most of you don't understand how sports work.
I was really waiting for SOMEONE to mention how fundamentally different Shifter/Mulcharmys/Droll are from otherhand traps because of how inherently skilless they are. There is no reason not to shotgun Purulia, Shifter, or Droll at the first opportunity, whereas you need to consider when to use certain cards like Ash/Imperm/Nibiru.
This is a very important point. Just like what happens with Maxx C, you have to first win the mini game before you get to actually start playing Yu-Gi-Oh. There is no skill involved, is just a question of drawing the out.
Konami card design Is getting worst and worst they keep repeting the Same mistakes and make new ones
Disagree. As someone who runs a semi-limit 2 Dimension Shifter in MD, some times it’s not about shot gunning as soon as possible. You NEED to know your match up. Some times sending Shifter to grave won’t trigger the Talent and you’re good but it can also trigger the Thrust. There are also times when people are running the PSY Frame hand trap and they negate the shifter anyways and now you’re out a hand trap. I also main deck Droplet so once I send shifter, droplet is dead for the next turn. Some times I’ll hold the shifter until I see what my opponent is playing and it’ll be a better move to go Droplet, send Shifter and negate a monster on the field. The other day, I decided to hold shifter and it turned out to be a Floo player. I was able to send shifter with droplet to negate the Empem and I was able to combo off. Also, if you’re playing Effect Veiler or Droll then you can’t shotgun shifter. You HAVE to wait till the right moment to Shifter and then chain Droll. I disagree that Shifter is a skill-less card because you either know how to play around it or you don’t. I played Branded at my first regional and I had practiced my Shifter line in the off chance I went against a Shifter deck. Same goes with cards like Nibiru, if you aren’t counting your summons then you always fall victim to Nibiru. This format, I’ve lost to Nibiru so much and it pissed me off every single time because it felt like every single opponent had Nibiru but I finally learned, I play under 3-4 summons and pass, every time I over extend, I get punished. So I learned to play it safe. Unless I have Talent and can check that there is no Nibiru, I’m playing under 5 summons every time. Nibiru is also a skill issue. We know it exists and we have to play knowing the threat is out there. Shifter is harder to play under for most decks but the best you can do is Crossout+Shifter (as I’ve seen some people do at the more competitive locals) or stick to 40 cards and pray for the called by (or play Herald of Orange Light with some fairies to negate Shifter, which one guy did at one live stream duel at my last locals) there are outs, people just don’t wanna risk the bricks.
@@ThatsSoGiorgio maindecking droplet with shifter Is really bad deck Building
@@zakariaelhimer1325 but it’s not. The chance of drawing both isn’t very high. 3 Shifters and 2 Droplets. It’s a going second deck, rarely has it ever been a hinderance. I wait to see if I top deck droplet or top deck shifter before I activate Droplet and in the off chance my opponent makes me go first, I just set the Droplet and send the Shifter once there’s a worthy monster on the field, then I can send with Droplet in the same chain to negate a boss monster and also have Shifter’s lingering effects. They’re all conditions that can work if chained together. Main decking 3 Droplets was a big mistake but the amount of times I can break a board by going “Lightning Storm, Cosmic Cyclone, Shifter, Droplet-send Lightning Storm and Cosmic Cyclone, negate two monsters” THEN I can start playing, it’s been working. Much better than playing these hand trap wars. I’m tired of top decking and Effect Veiler. At least top decking Evenly Matched and Dark Ruler has been winning me some games.
1 card combos should lock you in to a type and should include brics .
Frequently they do.
Some would say drawing flamberge and SE Diabellstar turn one is a brick hand lol
@@Fr3d0-1no locks though. Apart from princess which isn’t a snake eye card.
@@isaacn751 I wouldn't say include bricks but definitely should lock you. I'm also not opposed to generic support/engines for all decks as long as it's widely available and not gated behind an $800 core.
Like D/D/D
i understand Josh's point of view of "i dont think this specific issue should be a reason to quit the game" however we have so many more "this doesnt make you drop the game" type of issues than any other comparable hobby, especially in the card game sphere, and they stack on top of each other and compound progressively with each event you take part in. how many of these types of issues become enough to make you drop the game? I think Jess does. She quit it.
ps: nevermind they istantly mentioned it after i typed out this comment HAHAHAHAH
I think farfa did a great job navigating this discussion. He really managed to cool the tempers and keep it professional.
I kinda, agree with Josh regarding prizing.
I left this whole spiel on MBT’s video, but essentially, I think the typical argument/consensus on prizing I tend to see is backwards; basically, ‘deck expensive, so prizing should match that’.
But rather than prizing needing to be higher, I feel the barrier to entry (cost of cardboard) should be much, much, much lower.
Cause, let’s be real, prizing only affects like, if we’re generous, 5% of the entire playerbase. So that’s the last thing I’d be focusing on to help fix the game (which I wouldn’t consider fundamentally broken anyway).
Better printing practices that in turn, make the cost of decks and staple cards to be WAY LOWER, and inline with the prizing offered, makes far more sense than the other way around.
I really don’t believe any singular meta relevant card should be anywhere close to $100 or even $50 for that matter, cause we aren’t buying specialised equipment for a sport that has been stress tested through layers of R&D and made from premium materials that justify a high cost, like idk, wheels / tyres / coilovers / other expensive af car bits, we’re talking pieces of cardboard, that is ONLY expensive based on supply / demand, which can be fixed. I do think having high rarity collectors pieces in addition to regular printing is a sweet way to make pack opening still exciting for those that want to collect.
I’m also not saying there shouldn’t be better prizing either, there really needs to be some incentive to play well, cause even if cardboard was cheap, there’s a huge time commitment to play this game at the highest level.
I just don’t think fixing prizing fixes the game all that much at all, because really, it doesn’t affect 95% of the playerbase.
Affordable cardboard though? That fixes a lot.
Jess is in the 5%. You're talking about a basically unrelated issue
Even if you reduce card prices, plane ticket and hotel prices will still make it very costly.
Card prices are definitely the main issue.
But prizing is also causing people to quit, not just due to cost of play but because there's a bunch of competition now that are cheaper, in a healthier state, or pay more, usually at least two out of the three.
I completely agree. I play the game on a table at home, I'm never going to a ycs and I have have a job and there's things to do. Prizes have zero to do with me and my relationship with the game nor anyone else's that I know. That being said if better prizes make some players happy, I'm sure that's good for the overall health of the game. I just don't think it's top priority.
“I agree this is all bad, but I clearly just love the game more than you”
~Josh the whole damn episode…
Great strawman argument.
@@Gokuvsnaruto22 didn’t make a single “argument” so…
@@akaneki7234 To sum up everything he said into that framework you made, is a strawmanned version of his actual points, if you can understand that better.
@@Gokuvsnaruto22 he didn’t make any actual points; all he said was that some metas are good, some metas are bad and it’s all subjective if you don’t like it (which is a complete non-starter).
Basically nothing he said was actually productive he just sandbagged the whole conversation, all for him to basically just say that all the complaints are legitimate but none would be good enough for him to quit the game because they aren’t why he plays.
So I think the way I summarised it was pretty accurate to his overall sentiment.
Sorry it wasn’t nuanced enough for you, but he wasn’t particularly nuanced himself; he was largely unbearable this episode.
@@akaneki7234 The point you brought up saying some metas are good, and some are bad is a point, whether you want to admit it or not.
Just because you don’t agree with his points doesn’t mean it’s productive, when he himself agrees with Jess on the main issues of Yugioh. You sound like you’re making up all these flimsy reasons why his points was bad, because you didn’t agree with him. You can disagree with something and still admit he made an actual point.
Jess was a lot of fun on this episode. Love the constant mention of Plant
He couldn’t make his point at all
Jess: Here's why I'm not having fun...
Josh: That's cool, but let me complain about plants.
Farfa: Is this what I'm going to have to deal with when my kid grows up?
Yeah, it's really like two brothers failing to talk.
I can’t not finish this, Josh is sincerely so bad faith it hurts.
He did not even let Jess finish her point on the Fiendsmith cards when talking on one card combos before interrupting to say you can’t compare it because they are very generic and can be used in many decks. But that is the literal point she is trying to bring up.
Then she explains her whole point again, using a one card combo that Josh agrees can be compared, and he just dismisses it all by making her defend the deck she is known for and disingenuously coming to a conclusion. He keeps doing this too for what little I was able to stomach.
Much love to Farfa and Jess, but nothing good to say about Josh here.
Josh wasn't having any of it. Really close minded or trying really hard to defend Konami
Because it’s clear she doesn’t mind one card combos. As proven by the deck she’s known for.
@@mrbubbles6468he’s*
I don't know what was up with him this episode. Usually he's pretty chill but it just seemed there was a chip on his shoulder or something. Maybe he was trying to super strong arm a devil's advocate here but this episode was a rough listen.
You can almost see the Konami leash around Josh's neck in this one with how fast he was just trying to neg points.
No matter how you spin it, normal summon loci and normal summon ash are not the same thing. Plants arent a bad deck and have some tools to succeed, snakes have all the tools. Aleister is a 1 card combo with recursion built in but it really doesn't matter.
Plants had all those tools to. It’s why they got hit. The single different is SE and Fiendsmith have yet to be hit.
I think Josh made a lot of intellectually dishonest arguments during this episode and, while he did get some pushback, he did not get called out on most of them.
I feel like his position is, if nothing else, frustrating. Mostly because of his often (Mathmech) circular logic.
The problem with most yugitubers when it comes to serious discussions is exactly that its their job so having critical sense about the game that might lead to people realizing bad things about the game and quitting/losing interest is too much of a risk to them. A lot of them have no plan B for their lives if not to be yugioh content creators and that creates a dangerous relationship with the game and a dishonest one with viewers.
Farfa pulling out that dad energy, having to put out fires because his cohost decided to be very annoying with the guest every few minutes. 😅
Good job Farfa and Josh, you'll receive your bonus later. - Konami
Cant speak too bad about the overlords otherwise they wont get to host those weekend MD tournaments and be giving promo products to open. XD
Here's why Josh's point on prizing is blatantly stupid. If a company creates a product as a hobby and then creates a competition which requires paid entry either by purchasing that product or actual paying to get in and then they use you and it as promotional material for that product they should absolutely provide a fair reward for that competition.
The top end for ycs events needs to change I personally don't think wcqs should cause it's an invite only tourney so there is no entry fee
@@supersentaifan26 Don't feel sorry for Konami. They have the money for better prize support at ALL events. Let's not forget that they're farming you with the actual product by not introducing multiple rarities like they have in the OCG.
Joshs point isn't that prizing shouldn't be better. It's that prizing should not be the reason you play Yu-Gi-Oh or not. Your hobby should be determined by what you enjoy not by how much money you can make from it.
@@reformedloki6418 Jess isn't leaving just because of the prizing though, and I doubt it's the only reason others are quitting. So what's the point of that argument?
I think it's if you're a professional yugioh player or a hobby player. If you're a professional yugioh player you should get paid. But then how do you define professional, idk
Josh take on the 1k on a deck or family is a hot hot take
The Mulcharmy cards definitely should be a make or break point for most Yu-Gi-Oh players, especially in the TCG. We've all heard over and over that OCG doesn't ban Maxx "C" because it gives OCG card design more flexibility because Maxx C (allegedly) checks those archetypes. By powering down Maxx C, the message I'm getting is that Yu-Gi-Oh is not going to change its design philosophy. Instead, the solution is to fix Maxx C so they can keep churning out powercreeping without leaving the TCG in the dust anymore.
Thanks, I hate it.
powering down lmao, fuwaros cant be negated by just an ash blossom or a called if you draw two of them, its a better maxx c even in tenpai, tcg only made around 15% of overall 1.3 billion yugioh profit last year (all combined from ocg asia, japan, master duel, duel links) considering the logistics the tcg profit is very likely much lower, i can say that even by company standards you guys are expendable, just saying.
also you guys are playing japanese games, why arent you all at least tried to copy the tournaments format in ocg? 3vs3 bo1 shared banlist for example, konami banlist in ocg is trying to promote that format.
@@r3zafulthe only OCG tournament that's bo1 is only the YCSJs for logistics purposes. The nats are bo3.
like generally yugioh made products only for ocg audiences, and they will be sells product that cater the ocg preferences, but often this doesnt sell well in tcg, i did check on tcgplayers valiant smashers price and it went down instead went up, how tf its possible when this set is on the top 5 most sales product in ocg? this is one of those set that even players from other card game recognized "ah yes that guren lagann and that demon angel loli set thing" this set should been a major hit but its somehow doesnt in tcg.
@@traplover6357 we have in 3v3 shared ban in indonesia months ago, official as well.
last year asia championship final is bo1 as well.
just try it, stop forcing format that doesnt fit with the current card pool and the direction of the game.
maybe use 3vs3 shared ban format in bo1 by 1 player playing 3 decks instead if you dont want to play bo1.
@@traplover6357 look, indonesia had one 3vs3 shared ban months ago, why dont you all just try it?
This was 2 hours of Josh seething with hatred at the mention of plant cards lmao he really has a blind spot for decks he just simply doesn't like
49:00 Farfa voiced my exact opinion on whats wrong with snake eyes.
Decks should have choke points, and should have deminishing returns.
For example if you play against yubel, and ghost ogre Nightmare pain, they would miss 1-2 piece for the combo, and you dont have to attack yubels. If you imperm the beckoning beast, they have less extenders. If you hand trap any slightly older deck, they just go SP, pass.
But if you hand trap a snake eye twice, and they have extenders, they just make the same end board and you handlooped yourself for 3.
While Josh is right that the "average player" isn't making money and hobbies aren't inherently profitable, it seems really weird that people who are the FACE of yugioh, unless they have some other form of self-driven profit (i.e. from TH-cam or Twitch) are still playing yugioh at a loss. Compare that to other games or e-sports which have a much lower barrier of entry price where the top players are provided with sponsorships. Konami should be trying to hold onto these people. Providing nearly nonexistent prizing to the top players is terrible for player retention at both the highest and lowest levels of play because even Casuals enjoy rooting for pro players.
It feels like Konami is just clueless on how to properly monetize their game outside of gambling and is this painfully evident in their last financial report from August 2024 where the company itself operates on a RAZOR THIN profit margin. I don't think Prizing *can* change until Konami itself adapts itself for the modern gaming environment.
They aren’t playing the game at a loss. Josh brings this up. Winning nets you several thousand, just not in direct cash.
Hess’s issue when you boil it down was that wasn’t good enough.
Love the discussion. I would like to see more card design discussion from the "what is fun for both players" view. When you talk about toxic and unhealthy cards-design. That should be top priority.
I think card design in archtype have to start getting more effects to keep up, WHILE my opponent plays, rather than just stop/destroy him with Handtraps/Bordbreakers.
Modern Yugioh will never be fun for both players. The power scaling is just too high for it. Konami seems to be content with one player feeling good per game alternating back and forth based on who goes first or sees their side deck cards. Personally I don't like the sadistic game design of modern Yugioh which is why I quit playing.
@@geek593Modern Yugioh has had SO MANY good, interactive formats recently though? In the past two years, only the current format & full power Kashtira have been "draw the out" formats.
@@geek593 The PowerLevel does not exclude good interactive(fun) duels for both players :)
For example Tearlaments was very fun if you liked the playstyle and both players could play their strategy, because they kept up with each others ressources. Sadly they seem not to have the right card designer staff for that to happen constantly.
Josh saying 99% hobbies in the world a person enjoys are net negative is absurd and wrong. He is the living proof of contradiction. He is one the most successful players in the game which has translated into being able to make an indirect living out yugioh. Fixing cars is hobby, and if you’re good at it you can net positive. Playing Sports in general start off is a hobby that has unlimited potential to net positive. The idea that large amounts of time and money invested into a hobby and should just expect to be net negative is a fallacy.
Cards like droll, shifter and the "maxx c" cards are countered directly by called by the grave and if they keep making this type of cards, called by should be at least at two copies. But if that happens people will complain about that you can't resolve shifter to end your opponents turn.
Or they can stop making and keeping legal cards where the solution is "just draw the out."
The main problem with this podcast is that it's a lot of Jess saying one thing and then Josh going "No, but I don't agree that [completely different thing]". Feels like kinda just talking past the guest instead of listening.
Can you give any examples of this? Jess said something and Josh brought up something completely unrelated to what Jess’s point was and didn’t address it at all?
I hate the “top players aren’t topping so the game has too much variance” argument.
There are so many talented players that sink hours into getting better at the game that aren’t well known or just can’t travel as much.
Well known players topping shouldn’t be an indicator on the state of the game.
L take if the players who consistently perform year after year get knocked out day 1 what’s more like field magically all getting better at once or that the format is less skill based
@@GalliwYGO or that we are in a healthy meta where more decks are viable to play, so the "pro's" complain about deck varierty and how they "can't" prepare for all decks.
It's such a weird argument.
When she mentioned the combined world points about the topping players, like what if people can't just make it to every single event or something and they finally get to show up and show off
@@BrotherHood-xh9sg "More decks are viable". My brother what are you smoking?
@@geek593 They just spouting out the AGOV format argument. 10+ Decks viable and everyone started complaining about it.
Konamis strongest soilder☠️
@@tarikfretes7562 You can't even spell "soldier" 😂
@@chimeratcg07 oh👀
I wanna see Josh tell Lebron he shouldn’t get paid because he’s playing his hobby. Literally imagine 😂
That is how you can tell Josh has never played a sport a day in his life. He thinks he's "competitive". Sports players have 10x the competitive mindset he does.
@@RandomGuyCDNDawg how competitive do you want a card game named Yugioh to be? Tf?
Millions of people watch Basketball… so there is way more money involved…. There is a big difference between that and YGO. Look at the amateur fight scene… those are all real people, really getting smashed in the head. You can’t compare that to the highest level of the sport.
@@RandomGuyCDNI can tell you never played a sport by the comment you left.
This episode feels like Josh forgot there was even a guest on, and spent his time shadowboxing against the imaginary opponent that Konami wrote in his QandA script.
Unknown people topping isn’t a bad thing, it’s the best thing that can happen. The world of information gathering is shifting. Before TH-cam was a big thing, only those that had a community to test with were able to get an edge on the rest of the player base. Now everyone has an equal chance to win an event. You are not entitled to win only because you have played for a long time and put effort into the game for the last decade.
That’s not really what she was saying. The point being made was that in the current format, the game becomes more hand-dependent to the point that player skill matter less than your opening hand, which leads to skilled players losing games that they might have won.
That’s not to say that the people who won didn’t deserve it, but just that the threshold of knowledge/skill you need to top is lower in a format like this one.
So it’s not about the effort the players put in ten years ago, it’s about the work they’re putting in right now not being rewarded due to the format.
Now, whether you think this is a good or bad thing is another issue entirely. Should lower skill players be able to win events over higher skill players in a tournament? I would argue “no,” but in a card game where luck should be a factor I don’t think it’s unreasonable to disagree.
@@Kintaku Yeah I absolutely agree.
And yes Luck is a big Factor, and Jess should know best how big of a factor it is, because she herself has won through opening a Harpies Featherduster against a back row Deck in the Finals of a tournament.
@@Raihojer yeah. I think it’s often easy to overlook variance when it’s helping you but it becomes more visible when it’s helping your opponent
@@Raihojershe literally clarified she didnt mean unknowns shouldnt have their shot tho. Kintaku explained what she meant perfectly
@@hightidekraken sure
But “pro’s” “fav’s” and “creator’s” still think they are entitled to win - this is problem in itself - and yes most of the time it is not their ego alone that makes them do it, it’s the masses, clinging to them like flies.
Jess’s expectation is to win as much as possible, and if it is not her, then it should be one of the peers that carry the community.
This way of thought would mean that no one else should be allowed to be a pro (both new and old players) except those that are already established.
I just don’t like that way of thinking.
People need to show up, win and gather even more new players into the fold. Konami is only interested in numbers - more engagement means more money and that can be a driving force in introducing prize money as a way of compensation.
Yugioh has been stagnant for year’s - obviously because it has been big since way back before giving out money was even a thing.
Jesse did a reaction to Jess' video on quitting. It was a pretty interesting take and I kinda agreed with him ngl.
I think he made the most "fair" take. He criticized because of Jess's exaggerated takes sometimes, but also agreed with her on a lot. The other video I saw was the most out of touch reaction.
If you have something called WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP that people have to compete against to win a spot, calling it "just a hobby" it's at very least stupid or at worst outright lie...
Having a world championship doesnt make it not a hobby. Getting a bunch of hobbyists together and trying to find out who's the best that day doesnt magically nake it a sport or career path.
@@gerbygerbs7705Ok but when your direct competition also have World Championships or at least big tournaments while also paying out so much more shouldn't it be in Konami's interest to also pay out at least the top players? If for no other reason than to stay competitive with other card games?
I disagree completely. Enthusiasts of many video games, such as Tetris, hold world championships every year. They all gather for the love of the game and meeting up with friends/competitors from other parts of the world. They are not doing it for the cash prize at the end...because more often than not, there is no cash prize for winning it. If Konami, as a business see it worthwhile offering professional contracts to top players in order to entice more people to come into the game, they are free to do so. But they are absolutely not obligated to do so.
@@nachohangover5104are you asking if it should be in their best interest to pay out more, or they should be obligated to pay out more? Because if it was in their best financial interest to pay out more, they would likely do it. They have clearly decided that they do not have to improve the prizing, and I don't think they are obligated to. Yes, it would be nice, but they shouldn't feel obligated to just because some players want it. It's a hobby not a job.
@@olympicpip9235 They're certainly not *obligated* to, no.
But when top players are explicitly quitting to go play other games for that reason (or at the very least, starting to explore other card games more) and they're the only major card game with such low value prizing (even other card games without cash prizes give more valuable and/or cooler stuff) it's weird that Konami is sticking to their lack of prizing.
The thing about pricing is a weird one. As someone who works a normal 40h week and only plays ygo on the side. If i ever wanted to top a ycs or even worlds. I would need to spend so much more free time for it, that, at that point, it isnt a hobby anymore and its almost like a second job. Especially because people have more than just one hobby. So i think the high end of players, should be compensated for the amount of time and work they put into topping these events. Even if that means putting up cash prizes.
Josh was so annoying this episode he already had his mind set no matter what jess says
nobody just changes his mind if they dont see the reason to do so
He literally says that he sees her point, doesn't mean he feels the same way
So does Jess wdym??
Anytime prizing has been brought up in his chat for months he's said the same thing. Real competitive people wouldnt stick to a game for peanuts
@RandomGuyCDN that's not true, that's a matter of opinions many people play competitive video games and make no money it just depends on the game. His take isn't wrong you just don't like it. But if im honest most people choose their hobbies as an escape or an out let from the stresses of daily life or as a way to make friends so he is correct when he says what he's been saying.
First of all, I really liked the podcast, guys. There's a point about the EUWCQ playoffs being so low, and I feel there are aspects that aren't taken into account. Depending on where the player lives, it's impossible for them to enter the playoffs because the tournaments in their country are very small. Another part is that aiming for the top of the playoffs means literally playing regionals every week and traveling, which incurs a significant cost. That said, I also wanted to highlight that we're talking about a top 64, which is extremely demanding to reach in the events, and in Yu-Gi-Oh! there are not only 64 good players, so it's normal for many people to be left out. People usually only pay attention to the well-known players in the game.
Big facts!!
They’re just salty because they didn’t go as far as they thought lol. People always find reasons to hate
Rare Josh L
Would love to see someone like Anthony Alvarado. Won the SJC Goat Format is based on, and is currently one of the best Goat players around. Would be cool to hear from someone who dedicated themself to retro formats rather than “modern” YGO, why they do it, how it differs from playing a game that’s getting new cards every month, etc.
Josh needs to stop being so biased when discussing the game because any time Jess tried to bring up a point Josh inmediately goes on the defensive and tries to dismiss her going "well you play plants so your problem doesn't matter" which is so fucking rude
Example 26:12 (Jess says she thinks blanket floodgate effects like droll are problematic for the game and joshua goes "well you play plants so your opinion doesn't matter to me"
Yeah I didn’t like that, or his point about “why didn’t you quit during formats where Niburu was relevant.”
@@SuperSilver316 yeah that was also a very weird example when nibiru is not the same kind of card as the cards jess is complaining about (maxxc, droll, shifter, mulcharmys)
he*
@@aymenkoroki6214 reported for being stupid
@@MrGshinobi retared sheep HE HAS TEH BIGGEST ADAM APPLE I SAW like 100%
The NBA would love Josh's mindset when applying pay to its players.
If these players were payed like NBA players every one of them would make $10 from Konami and there would still be moaning. This is a big sport that attracts fans, they barely make shit from tournaments.
Cards that punish wombo combo are good. A high ceiling shouldn't be ultra-consistent. In an ideal world, over-extending would be so risky that people are forced to change their deck building philosophy.
They could just make alt art or a special rarity for top cut of tournament of cards that are played a lot (like hand traps) or very collectable cards. Different cards for different parts of the top cut to make either each jump or each significant cut off get a different prize. Doesnt cost a lot for Konami, would be very high in demand by the community and for someone who is more casual and maybe tops once in a lifetime means a lot more as well then a rubber mat.
wow i didnt truly understand mbts point about players sucking at communication about their game until now. this is so hard to listen to, from josh being dismissive most of the time to more than half an hour being spent on discussing one card combos as if those are the problem of this format and not unstoppable body-shitting engines with no restrictions and lingering handtraps
Nah Josh was right to be dismissive of whining about Purulia. Everybody was excited about that card when it dropped because it's known that going second sucks and this was a balanced way of making second better.
The other mulcharmy will be way worse and more format warping.
Josh was kinda annoying in this episode ngl.
His argument was literally "I don't disagree because it makes perfect sense when you think about" but anyway I disagree because this doesn't negatively affect me
his stance on purulia was totally warped by playing a deck that summons from hand once a turn
@@zettgundam6317 His argument is coherent. Yes prizing are awful, but its a hobby. A hobby isnt a job.
@@mr.crowley8750 drawing, youtube, etc are all hobby yet they are so profitable hmmm its almost as if there's enough demand there is career
When you're putting so much money into this game just to pass the barrier for entry, with no guarantee of doing well or making prizing, and you consistently do well enough to place in top cuts of events, I feel the hobby should be self-sustaining at that point where competitive play is concerned, including travel. Josh's fixation of using the hobby as a job is obfuscating the point Jess is trying to make, which is that you aren't rewarded for your investment in YGO in a meaningful way, and that drives away both new and existing players. I don't think that Konami needs to start giving folks $10k for topping a YCS, but the existing prizing is literally crap I can win at my local arcade, AND it would still cost less than getting a competitive deck together.
It's not that people pick up a game based on its prizing, though absolutely some do, but that people are putting it down because the prizing is awful, or they aren't investing in it because they don't see a purpose. The prizes are worth less than the cards you had to buy to get there. That's just bunk. I know people in real life who have stopped playing because they didn't find the game rewarding enough to keep up with. That's a retention problem the game can't afford, especially when, as was pointed out, we have an aging player base and have stalled on growth somewhat after the quarantine boom. YGO is unique enough to be fun and engaging for fans of other card games at a competitive level, but when it costs a grand to get a deck that competes and your prize for winning is worth $300-500USD max at the TOP TOP, why would they bother trying it? This kind of thing hurts the longevity of the game's competitive scene in a very tangible way because it makes it unappealing for players to transition into competitive.
Kazuki Takahashi wasn't wrong for not wanting cash prizes in what was effectively a children's game, but the times have changed and the game's fan base has evolved and literally grown up. Even if we don't go toward monetary prizing, unique high-value collectibles would be a suitable enough replacement to get people to engage to a point, though not forever. Right now, playing this game is a money sink for competitive players, especially if we keep up the design decisions of the last three or four years, and non-competitive players aren't going to try moving into competitive spaces when they both won't be rewarded for doing so and actively have to spend money to do it.
Whether someone wants it to be self-sustaining is completely irrelevant. Players of any game do not have the right to decide what they should get out a game, the only right players have is to decide whether they want to play or not. If I am the best in the world at rock, paper scissors and I travel the world to compete with people, that's my choice. I can't just decide I should be paid for that. Players have the choice to invest as much or as little as you want to compete. Konami should improve prize support but they have decided not to so if the cost of the hobby out-weighs the enjoyment or return is the reason someone is playing, then YGO is not for them. The amount of money involved is completely irrelevant.
@@BlueBloodPenn this argument is so insanely boring. who are you even talking to? nobody is talking about "rights," as if there's some potential for legislative push on behalf of the players to force konami to do anything, you're boxing against ghosts dude. and this comparison to rps is asinine. do you have to buy new fingers every few months to keep up with the rps meta? are some of your fingers banned occasionally so you can't do scissors? is rps-and-co releasing a new nuclear fusion move that you can only do with two hands if you bought enough lottery tickets at your local gas station?
Your whole argument is exactly what Josh disagreed with.
It's fair and completely reasonable to have that opinion, a lot of other people do.
But he already addressed everything about this and expressed why he personally disagreed.
Josh is fine with a hobby being expensive, without expecting any return, because everyone has the right to choose to begin with if they wanna pursue a hobby based on every factors (how much they enjoy it, the price, the benefit, the return if any, etc).
Even if you still don't get anything for being the best in the world on your hobby, he thinks it's still worth doing if he's still having fun and is still able to financially sustain that hobby through his main job.
If you disagree (which is completely understandable) then just quit the hobby and find another one that fits better for your criterias.
@@nico-wj1mh Konami has never presented the game and prize structure to be anymore than what it is. Players know that, so quiting because of it doesn’t make sense since it was never the reason to play competitive in the first place.
@BlueBloodPenn rock paper scissors doesn't cost you 1k to play amongst your friends.
Next master rule should introduce mini games, instead of dice roll cards it’s “challenge your opponent to an arm wrestle”.
I think Josh is kinda off-base with his "I don't think a hobby NEEDS to return on your investment".
Sure, playing 'House on Haunted Hill' probably shouldn't be paying my bills (if I'm not making content around it), but a pro player of any game is just that: a pro. There's a line you cross where it's more than a hobby. You spend your time playing the game, or preparing to play. You're on the hook for news, and updates, and most of it matters to you. At that point, it's not just a hobby. And while it doesn't HAVE to pay for your mortgage, at a minimum, if you represent the highest echelon of players, it should pay for itself. Heck, players like Josh, Jesse and Jess are practically faces for the game to the player-base.
Why can pro competitive eaters do that full-time, but no YGO players? It might be that YGO doesn't have huge sponsors or teams, like other games have. Is the game so unfriendly that people would rather watch League of Legends gameplay than YGO? What needs to change to get that going? With league teams, you could make a living playing the game without cash prizing.
Obviously, opinions are just opinions, but sometimes you need to ask WHY things function the way they do.
It's also an extremely expensive hobby to compete in. Decks are expensive and travel is even more expensive. Winning a 2000 person event should at least allow you to break even on your deck and flight.
@@geek593you can break even on your deck and flight by winning those. You just need to sell the Switch and the boxes of cards you get from them.
Because there are no pro YGO players. Competitive players are not sponsored or paid to compete and place at events. "Pro YGO player" is a term from the community for people that go to alot of top tier events and place often but that has nothing to do with making it financially viable. There is no line to cross, it's completely imaginary. Konami hasn't made it financially viable because they don't currently view that as part of the game.
YGO is a collectable card game with competitive tournaments. Your choice as a player if you enjoy the game is to decide how much you want to commit knowing what the game is. People are projecting what they want the game to rather than evaluating what it is. If I wanted to be a pro in Monopoly and be paid by it, it is not my right to then critic the game if that is not possible.
Im a pro hopscotch player where's my money, oh right hopscotch was never created for me to make money......fuck I wasted so much time
@@mattgibson9337 exactly mine and Josh's point. It's an entitled mind set to think that because you do something or achieve something you should be financially rewarded because of it simply because other people are in other areas.
A simple Raigeki or Mirror force should be the ceiling for Card Design while making it meta relevant to break through hand traps and negates board.. (Dont make them auto-lose after a single Raigeki but promote so they want to bring defensive traps when their board gets cleaned up)... Yes, I know that sounds easier than done but at least they can TRY 🎉
Josh is correct 🗿 players like jess leaving can only be a good thing.
Hobbies dont need to fund themselves, you aren't owed money. That's not a hobby.
well, if yugioh is simply a hobby then gah dayum it is expensive af. better to just play a less expensive game. no? and leave yugioh to the people who can afford it....which is fewer and fewer every day. yep.
@fernie6299 yep, maybe eventually the Flat Earther at my locals will leave after waisting money on QCSR Snake eyes and Diabellstar cards.
I just want the game to stop being floodgate effect or lock-out turbo.
Yes, I'm guilty of playing a Yubel deck that wants to lock-out the opponent. Or just run my Yubels into their big atk monster to burn for game.
Still a shit play style.
This josh dude is salty af
JOSH! You play non combo decks… of course you don’t care about busted generic anti summoning handtraps
he literally played white forest, they lose to droll, they get hit by mulcharmy. He just thinks there should be checks and balances to what is in yugioh terms, unlimited power
@@avatarmufasa3628he played a runick deck with like 6 white forest cards
@@HotRed00 That doesn't change the fact that the deck loses to droll and multcharmy.
@@HotRed00 as lucky said, it loses to the same stuff. so when considering whether the card is fair, josh understands the impact of these cards
I've said this many times:
Lingering effect handtraps are NOT THE problem.
The problem is when handtraps AUTO-WINS(shifter, Maxx C, G3 dogwood).
1-card combo decks/engines are NOT THE problem.
The problem is when they make AUTO-WIN Endboards(snake-eye, plants, puppet lock, floodgates).
Dogwood has been relevant in 2 formats. Tear and this one, and even in this one it wasnt an auto-win. Go check the match, it was done at 16-17minutes and was used to give the tenpai time to fight off protos and stall it out.
Thats honestly a healthy use of the card.
Given that its only been relevant for 2 formats, saying its an auto-win sounds dishonest.
“They arent the problem” proceeds to name several huge times they’ve been problems. They have rarely ever been healthy unless contained to some bad archetype or are just weak overall
one idea to fix the game is to have a limited to the amount of extra deck summonings like for example you can only summon 4 extra deck monsters per 1 full turn
Im glad everyone is holding Josh to task after watching this episode, dude is clearly blinded to Konamis faults due to his own personal success with the game; alot of his stance comes off as bad faith at best, and downright being a konami schill at worst. Not a great look at all imo.
Idk, theres no reason to expect to play a game and have it pay your bills. Prize support can of course be better but i dont see the value of playing a game i dont enjoy as much for the chance of winning money. Even further there, nost of the people complaining about support are never going to win the prizes anyway. How many people do you sti across that have a regionals or ycs playmat or sleeves that they didnt buy? So many of the casuals complaining about prizing are the sane guys showing up to locals every week to go 2-2.
"konami's strongest warrior" is literally how he introduced himself today
@@gerbygerbs7705Prize support definitely isn't the first issue I would address with Yugioh. But it still is a legitimate issue.
Top players are part of drawing in new players and keeping a community and loyal playerbase around a game. If top players keep quitting that can reduce the rate at which new players come in or players stick around even at the casual level.
If nothing else it seems pretty dumb for Konami to not want to have better prizing if for no other reason than to stay more competitive with their direct competition who are paying out and/or are at least way cheaper.
Not going to lie absolutely hated Josh’s opinions on this one
it was just so out of touch.
yeah it was hard to watch
Thought he made good points.
konami sent josh and farfa after Jess lmao
I think Farfa was pretty fair to be honest. Josh on the other hand was shilling 😂
Farfa actually agree with Jess, to the point the discussion becomes a bit heated before he defused the situation. There is a long segment where it's just Farfa and Josh debating about it and Jess quietly staring at them.
Josh glazing tf out of Konami
Hobbies and professions are two different things. Josh doesn't even agree with these basic things. What are you talking to him about? He has completely become a slave to Konami and a fool
Some pro players and yugitubers can't afford to quit Yu-Gi-Oh (or the TCG) due to their sponsorships, contractually or not. Some of them pay their bills thanks to it. Starting from scratch a different TCG means they might lose, at least, part of their main income for a while. It's not easy to become a pro player and get new sponsors for a new TCG. So, for many, its not ideal to take that step.
Imagine TSX1 quitting the competitive scene (Pak and Jesse are part of the team). That won't make sense for his main sponsor (SP) in terms of prestige and visibility over its main market (TCG players).
I mean, the main reason why those brands sponsor pro players is because of the image (prestige, visibility) those players have on the market that brands are trying to appeal.
This makes a ton of sense. Though, I wish pro players and collectors Konami would stop flooding Konami’s wallets with these power creeps. The card designs have been terrible and the prices of been outrageous. Not to mention, travel and hotel expenses are becoming more steep to enjoy these live events. I wish there was more of a focus on players to make MasterDuel the official TCG format and move away from in person tournaments.
Apparently they can ditch yugioh go and play any other game and be better off financially according to the comments 🤷♂️
Im totally agree that the prices should be better for the persons that dedicates so many hours a day for many weeks or even months preaparing for the event sometimes sacrificing other valuable activities. Even if your goal is just having fun you can barley call it a hobby for the amount of time required to top a big event. Besides the experiences and recognition the prices should reflect your hardwork and passion.
Yay Jess!!!!!! 💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜
Josh out here glazing konami with the most privileged takes I've ever heard
How exactly is not caring about cash prizing privileged? On the contrary expecting cash for playing a card game is what sounds like privilege to me.
Because he isn't modivated by money? Perish the thought
@@ducky36FBecause he still makes most of his income from Yugioh, but it’s from TH-cam and Twitch. Expecting every top player to also become a content creator is not reasonable. Similarly expecting people to spend thousands on cardboard and travel on top of the hundreds of hours spent practicing without a return is equally unreasonable. As many people have said, it doesn’t have to literally be cash prizing.
he played competitvely 18 years before that, but lets ignore that
@@vivistaples He has a degree in software engineering, got an offer from a company to work for $7k/mo and refused that to do YGO content instead (which obviously makes less) because he loves the game.
If you watched the video (which you probably didn't fully), he already said that he just doesn't want to base all his life decisions around making more money.
He's doing content creating now because that's what he enjoys and it works out. If it doesn't he would just do software engineering instead as his main job, and still play YGO.
For me, cards like Mulcharmy, Maxx C, and Dimension Shifter are particularly frustrating to play against because they can be activated immediately going second. They are proactive. It's not something that can be played around like Nib/Droll. Both of which are powerful cards. End a turn kind of cards. But they, like most other handtraps, are reactive.
That reactive space is immensely important for being able to "play around it." A deck should have to trade off an end board piece to beat Nibiru or play lower to the ground to play around Droll.
That decision space, for me, is where YUGIOH thrives.
For me, having more "proactive hand traps" does impact theory crafting when they are all considered meta. The increase in these kinds of card effects (I expect) will have a negative affect on my (and others) enjoyment of the game.
Before Mulcharmy, Shifter deck would have a 40% chance of seeing Shifter in its opener every game.
Now in at least 1 game of the match you should expect 65% (3 Mulcharmy, 3 Shifter). Or in all of the games if it's Tempi!
By adding even a second card to this mix we have jumped from "you will likely see a proactive hand traps in your opener at least once" to "statistically speaking you should see a proactive hand trap in 2 of every 3 games." (Almost)
Lingering handtrap in general is bad already
Can you imagine your opponent could thrown skill drain or mistake or any other continous floodgate directly from your hand on first turn?
@abdurachmanromzy4778 I'm not going to disagree that lingering effects are, as currently designed, bad. I think that these cards would be better designed (balanced, healthier, etc.) if they had a reactive element to them: like Droll. I have no issues with the design of Droll. Most decks can play around it and the ones that can't are usually much more resilient to other forms of interaction. But due to its reactive nature, it incentives finding lower to the ground lines that can play around it.
Purulia -> "When your opponent summons a monster from the hand: you can discard this card from your hand (quick effect); ..."
Shifter -> "If a card is sent to your opponents GY by card effect while you have no cards in your GY: you can discard this card; ..."
I like the idea of Perulia being a "when" effect because it creates a decision point on the 1st summon from hand of "do I ash blossom or do I Perulia" whilst preserving the possible double punish in Perulia + Veiler/Imperm
For Shifter it's trickier but the intention is to allow for at least 1 card to hit the GY before it can be activated. Idealy this allows for more lines to available if someone wants to play around Shifter. An example could be Horus. Proactive Shifter shuts down a hand of Imsety+Hapy, but reactive Shifter allows for that initial play to go through and get 2 bodies on the board and the continuous spell. Maybe you leave them on board. Maybe you normal a veiler and link into I:P to try and go into S:P on your opponents turn for a couple of interruptions. Maybe you go for Felgrand XYZ.
My point is that a lingering effect that leaves options can be done and my hypothesis is that shifting (pun intended) to them would be better for the game than both the current design space and getting rid of them all together.
Nah. Going second needs a boost
@@scottwheler177 im somewhat agree,however its seems like making lingering effect that doesnt prevent any play was quite hard, considering that most of its effect (not the trigger clause) are pretty much passive in that sense that you can just active it for once and it'll remain there for the turn (or twice per turn for shifter)
Where most of handtrap like ash just stop a single action in interaction
A bit weaker from duration (if compared with backrow floodgate),but the idea was a still same
Maybe more harsh could do a trick,like droll require your opponent to do the action first before it can be activated,not the one that could just be thrown at start of duel like max c or shifter
My version of a rule change like Farfa's 1 normal summon per main phase, I think Trap cards should be activatable once the phase has passed (perhaps other than end phase). Improves them going second.
Damn, I usually really respect Josh's opinions and criticism but he was really defensive to not let even a small critique from Jess hit.
Super depressing to see what honestly just feels like shilling
I gotta question for Farfa, Josh, and Jess. Why don’t the pro players start more of their own tournaments and orgs with sponsors? They can even do it over MasterDuel and save yourselves the cost of travel and we would definitely donate way more to the prize pool than any live event. Whenever Farfa watches MD tourney duels on Twitch is it a great experience.
Honestly, we will donate to watch the best players duel. Watching Pros duel in MasterDuel against the best players in the U.S, EU, and other parts of the world for more prize pool money on stream is a better viewing experience than hearing about results through a live event that presents so many issues.
Plus, there can be an agreed upon banned/unbanned format to help bring variety. It is inevitable that Fiendsmith is going to take over the meta and recreate the same problems that will hit in-person tournaments.
I would love to hear your take on this post, because I truly believe yourself and the other pros have an opportunity to make the game a better viewing experience for everyone in the community.
Hard agree
ARGs and PPGs existed and fail. Once players take too much control, they implement their own banlist and illegitimize the game
I think it also depends on the company as well. I know nintendo has to authorize tourneys and circuits or else they will cease and desist
How many times are people going to answer this question for you before you accept that it isn't feasible for it to happen?
Konami, WotC and TPC/TPCI run tournaments as literal loss leader and the tournaments are also huge marketing tools for franchises. Look at all the 3rd party companies that no longer run tournaments. Star city games used to be a huge MTG circuit that ran parallel to WotC's tournaments and once covid hit it basically killed them along with WotC not wanting to cooperate with them anymore. Also gotta pay for venues (whos rental prices have also sky rocketed in recent years and you gotta book those like years in advance), pay staff and tournament organizers. That's alot of hassle for literally no payoff for 3rd party organizers, they held on as long as they could until the bubble popped.
I think in regards to prizing, the term we're trying to find is "rewarding".
Becoming a top player in yugioh doesn't feel as though its rewarding enough when you reach that level.
It doesn't mean it has to fund itself entirely, but it needs to give something worthwhile back for all the commitment and resources that was put into reaching that level and yugioh is just not doing that.
Josh is just the better player. Bruh aint quitting and figuring ways around cards ppl whine about. Even on md. Maxx c challenge, sure ill take it end on bouncer lock. Smh the sword always whines when the shield comes into play. Gotta learn to chop at the knees.
1:11:24 I can’t tell if Josh is purposely doing this because of his ego or something, or if he’s genuinely misunderstanding the point. The original point was: (prarphrasing) “Other card games are more respectably compensating their TOP players, and so it becomes much LESS burdensome financially to put a bunch of time into their respective card games, since you’re actually getting worthwhile compensation for your time at the highest level.
No one thinks the AVERAGE player should have their hobby funded by the company lol. Josh used this strawman argument MULTIPLE times throughout the conversation, and it was very frustrating to see them talk past each other over and over again.
Josh was doing a very good job shadowboxing his made up issues but never actually addressed what Jess was actually trying to get at (admittedly because she wasn’t as articulate as Josh.)
@@GutsmanLoL I think it is as Farfa said Josh is speaking from a privilege point of view. Also, I believe because Josh is an “old head” with 20+ years in the game that prizing has always been terrible and he’s accepted that and not quit, so why should anyone else feel different. Even if Konami’s poor management of the Yugioh game has led to so many real players issues.
I took a break from the Yugioh TCG and Master Duel for a few reasons: autopilot decks, lack of diversity, the high cost, and the fact that no one wants to watch someone play solitaire and then just go to game 2 because they lock you out of the game.
Josh is definitely simping for Konami on this one >_>
Anything particular you’d like to argue? Or are you just a parrot that will just side with the game bad me unhappy without a thought in your head? Yeah people having different opinions on a situation are really shills tbh
@zell245 I just feel the "prizing isn't that important it's about the fun of the game" take he has is a little too.....how do I say it rose tinned glasses, he literally called himself Konami's strongest soldier he's simpin rn
@@detective_0267 Yeah except that's literally what everyone that competes does it for. Because there's no real prizing. No one disagrees that better prizing should exist. Josh isn't saying there shouldn't be, but his take is what's happening in the real world where people play the game. For everyone that cares about the game, is competitive in it and attends events. Brother is literally saying that it's not what matters to HIM(and most people let's be real, most of us have regular jobs), not that Jess or anyone that choose to walk out isn't entitled to it or shouldn't WANT something better.
People in online spaces are so desperate for personalities to blankly agree with their cause that anyone having a more neutral stance is an enemy. Like Josh is preventing prizing from coming, or if he threatened to quit like the dozen specific known names on twitter would be what tips the scale.
@zell245 who called Josh a enemy o.o
Wait......dude....are you actually Josh simping rn
Josh's strongest soldier .___.
@@detective_0267Nobody cared about prizing until Jess quit. You all are just drones who latch onto any new reason to complain about the game
When it comes to one card combos, loci and plants have choke points and locks you, Fiendsmith stuff is a one card combo that is a backup plan for every deck AFTER the main combo by going into moon of the closed sky just like Verte Anaconda with any two monsters
Josh came off as very defensive and bluntly condescending at times. I get that it's a passionate topic, but it kinda invalidates the entire podcast if he's going to get like that. Most points were subjective but damn, at least pretend to respect other opinions and let others finish their thoughts before commenting. 🙄
A bit cheeky that Josh thinks that the friends and memories is prize enough for players while also traveling to Worlds all expenses paid by Konami 😂
Watching this after Josh's reaction to Jess's vid, I'm sensing a very odd aura floating around the cast
My main takeaway is that with 1 card combos/engines is that they should limited via Main Deck in-archetype cards. Something like how Unchained Soul of Rage requires an Unchained Soul card. Why? Pile Decks are fun an interesting, but should be limited via archetypal locks (Promention/Spirit with Eyes of White/Soul of Rage) and bridges being very specific. (E.I. Mudcracker0
Also, I do wish there were more variance to how disruption works. E.I Stealth Kraken, Subversion, Flip face-down, Battle Positions, Columns, Dna Surgery.
My biggest problem with Josh's argument that you shouldn't expect a hobby to be profitable is that for most people, even with yugioh prizing lets say utopia world and you make enoguh to sustain your life on winning tournaments, would still mean yugioh is not profitable for most people. Nobody is saying winning locals should get a massive cash prize or winning a regional either. For most people yugioh will still be a hobby. It starts becoming less of a hobby when playing at YCS, nats or wcq and worlds events where there are thousands of people playing and they are not common as they require so much time investment and planning to be able to compete. People want to get a bit more value out of that planning and practice rather than a rubber mat or just nothing.
Plus, he says he plays the game for the love of the game and expects no reward and that's his opinion and changes nothing if people are getting cash prizes or better value material prizes at top level events. It changes nothing about his enjoyment of the game but means more people get rewarded for putting in the time and practice. Giving people better prizes just makes a lot more people more willing to compete and try without changing anything about the game.
Edit: On reward you should expect the company to reward you, as you are paying them money for the cards and entry to just participate in the event.
It’s a fair point that other splashable engines all had major restrictions. Brave token took away normal summon effects, orcust locked into dark, verte locked into fusion etc.
Wait so is josh fired from yugioh or not?
He’s not an employee
@@deanoxd968 This is a joke referencing a tweet he made about mbt's video thumbnail
Apparently not. Have you seen TSX1 video?
Only Jesse, Pak, and N3sh were fired it seems, aside from Jess.
@@luckyjc8702 what you mean ?
@@luckyjc8702 Pak made a Joke about the Nintendo Switch prize but never mentioned anything about leaving the game.
I think the strength of a 1 card combo depends on how intractable it is, normal summon Lila only gets you a link four and a draw, normal summon tour guide and ze Amin are borderline ftk’s but they also lose to almost every handtrap
Saw a different side of Josh this episode. Pretty disappointing. Even just the way he rolls his eyes at points being made. We get it, you enjoy the game for being strictly a hobby and don't care about financial reward. (I'm in this camp as well.) It doesn't mean there should be ZERO financial reward for doing well. Konami literally gives 0 fucks about the TCG and has been farming them with predatory rarities for years now. I'm glad people are finally saying enough is enough.
Yeah I’m pretty disappointed in Josh. He was very annoying this episode
He said himself he agrees that there should be more prizing, but his argument is that yugioh as a hobby is much more than just turning a profit or not, and poor prizing is not a valid reason for quitting the game.
@@trainergold749 Jess (and others as far as I'm aware) aren't quitting the game JUST because of prizing (which Farfa had to sum up at the end). So the argument just comes off as super defensive and reductive. I could understand if it was the sole reason Jess is quitting the game but it's just not.
@@TurtleneckSweater-tw7hwEvery reason Jess gave for quitting directly relates back to prizing.
@@mrbubbles6468 Not really. Recent and future card design was also a huge part of the discussion.
The main thing that Konami really need to work on is making players feel "rewarded". That doesn't need to be cash prizes, buy definitely a better reward, or at the very least recognition system for its top top players. The Hall of fame idea mentioned would be a great idea for yugioh
Man, this is rough to listen to. Why does it feel like the language to fully articulate the problems with game and product design is just missing in the yugioh community?
Oh look another mbt-a*** take. Funny there’s so many of them in this discussion.
@@ducky36F Even MBT is dancing around it imo.
@BladeHobo, what language are they missing? Just curious
@@CamerronEstes I'll use the 'Game Design' stuff as an example. There's a lot of consistent stumbling where a problem card is pointed out or a trend is gestured to a bit too vaguely.
From the pod, Josh replies at Mulcharmy, saying it's fine right now and Jess doesn't have a good rebuttal despite bringing up Shifter. The game design-y response is to connect how power creep amplifies the impact of hand traps and floodgates. They are card negative-tempo positive plays meant to stop A+B combos. But, game has warped to a point where card advantage is almost meaningless while tempo is everything because most proactive cards generate near infinite value. Old yugioh heuristics of 2 for 1s, 1 for 1s, etc, don't matter if the one card left on your board/gy generates a full board with no hoops to jump through (no hoops that aren't just deck building considerations).
As the game increases in power, that generally trends towards more game actions within less turns, phases, and cards used even. With more game actions per deck, the chances of even narrow hate cards affecting the wider meta increases. Every deck searches every turn. Almost every deck uses the GY. Every deck uses the Extra. Poplar suggests that every deck will eventually have hybrid starter/extenders from hand. The range of effects that all decks need to be functional grows via creep. Like Shifter not being back breaking at first, Hand Mulcharmy might not be oppressive today, but it is a matter of when.
Rounding this back to 'why quit'. If cards are being printed today that will become obviously oppressive tomorrow, and that keeps happening, what confidence do I have in the designers curating a fun experience? (Not a YGO player anymore, just stepping in the shoes there)
edit: Extra aside on Hand Traps/Floodgates. Yugioh being a resourceless game is actually a huge detriment in the obliquity of these cards too. There isn't much of a cost in including these cards in any and every deck. If you don't like the play experience of these cards, it can be suffocating when they are present in the meta.
I feel like we are conflating decent prizing for making a living off the game here. At the top end of the sport the amount of effort that goes into it is far beyond just a hobby, the amount of money sunk into it is far beyond a hobby. If it should be as light hearted and light effort investment as football with the boys for example, then sure no prizing etc. but if I'm expected to buy pro equipment, train my ass off, travel around etc there should at least be decent pricing to renumerate my efforts no? No one says it has to be a livable wage, but it should certainly be better than what it currently is.
Also I think Josh is insanely defensive of Konami on this issue. it's weird. But to each their own.
Quite frankly when Jess quits 5 more top players step up with the thought of “oh there’s an opening, this is my chance” and that’s why one person or even a group will change anything. Play the game or don’t is what it comes down to honestly despite your opinion that you are absolutely entitled to
Josh was such a Chad this episode, too bad many will not understand his opinion.
It's amazing how between this and his reaction video on his own channel Josh went from being one of my favorite people in yugioh to someone I'm unfollowing everywhere. He went into this with his mind made up and was not open to legitimate discussion. He is not able to recognize his many privileges and his situation. He cannot empathize with others when their views or opinions don't apply to him. I'm honestly pretty disappointed. I hope Jess is able to find enjoyment and better treatment in other games she plays.
I lost some respect for Josh as well.
Same here lost respect for Josh
Not everybody is going to agree with mbt about everything sorry to say.
Jess and farfa will only push for more radical BS until the game is unsustainable. Josh is in a no win scenario because he actually makes sense, meanwhile Jess and farfa want to turn in the money printer and devalue everything lol
Crazy how some people think Konami owes them anything
by far the most interesting podcast episode but hard to enjoy it when Farfa and Josh just keeps attacking Jess and force her to constantly defend herself every time she makes an opinion