Here in Chile, in my company, we have more than 800 electrical buses with around 250KWh of original capacity, bought almost yearly from 2016 to 2023. We currently don't see a significant (statistically) degradation in capacity (SoH) even after 300.000 KM, but we take precautions: we avoid charging to 100% wen in the higher side of the city to avoid loosing the possibility of recharging on the road, we do a full charge at least once a week, we rotate the buses from different routes, we don't start routes with less than 30% of charge to avoid running out of energy due to unexpected problems on the road. We have some cases of degradation of around 3%, but once again, on a fleet analysis, degradation = 0% statistically.
@@SwordFighterPKN Don't think so, not hard to keep track on usage and charging can be done on a vehicle base automatically. Just have to setup software once. And rotating vehicle routes is also something you do with ICE buses as well.
See timestamps for points, reasoning and caveats: 1) 0:58 don't store your car at 100% battery for long periods 2) 4:30 Don't wait to charge your car (many short changes are preferable to fewer big charges) 3) 8:30 Don't regularly charge to 100%
@@SoloRenegade every rule says* when needed. Also he says it is still the manufacturer requirements to solve the problems. They are going to do what they need for warranty period.
@@ralanham76 you're missing teh point. EVs already have their work cut out for them as they fail to live up to the hype. but on top of that to ensure the batteries don't prematurely fail, they have to be operated at perpetual states of much reduced range, regardless of all teh other issues compounding, such as cold weather.
Ten years and 220k miles while doing everything wrong on the first gen EV doesn't sound that bad. I would say it is in line with what Jason said. You can prolong tha battery life to the point where it will easily survive rest of the modern EV, but even if you don't care it will still survive long enough so the most people wouldn't care. There are a lot of people who will never do 220k with their car. Heck, lot of them won't do this amount in 20 years of driving. Would you describe your charging behavior so we can learn how "everything wrong" looks like? 😉
I just put 15.000km on my MG4 standard with an LFP battery. I am asking myself the same things. Unlike the NMC versions, the LFP one does not even have a battery health mode. They actively coded it out. So I assume LFP is more robust to high SOC charging. One thing I know for sure is that they have an incredible low temperature sensitivity. Even without heating or AC the range plummeted at -5°C (to 60% of what it is at 20°C) My guesstimation is that internal resistances or reactive potential drop at low temperatures. In any case that should be avoided if you live in a cold place.
Yes I would also love an additional explanation on LFP batteries! I would love to see similar information on how they handle cold, heat, sitting for long periods of time, and if sitting at a high state of charge versus a low state of charge affects them. Or maybe even a video on future or upcoming battery technologies like Solid State or something, though that might be harder to cover engineering information on since they're so new or even undeveloped. @@EngineeringExplained
@@quintonstevenslithium iron phosphate is interesting in that you can't charge it at all if it's below freezing. It is however less sensitive to heat and can have very long cycle lifes. I recently got some large format (280ah) prismatic cells shipped over from China to build a battery for my RV. It's at the point where it was cheaper upfront for me to order 8 lifepo4 cells and two 150 amp bms and pay sea freight than to go down to Sam's club and pickup 8 6 volt deep cycle lead acid batteries. Once you factor in the life span differences it's a fraction of the cost of a large lead bank.
The real challenge will be getting the general consumer to actually follow these best practices. Even after decades of preaching we still can't get people to follow routine oil changes.
I definitely agree that more education needs to get out to consumers, especially those looking to purchase EVs. That said, I also wonder if it would be possible or even practical to handle all of this on the software side, so that it is done automatically without much needed input from the user.
A lot of it is already handled by software. There are buffers to prevent max and min charge, safeguards to prevent charging in conditions that could damage the battery, etc. Like he said, even if you ignore all this advice, your battery will likely last a long time, even past the warranty. These are just if you want make it last as long as possible.
People don’t do it for their phone/laptops. They sure as hell won’t do it for their car. That’s why mfg should develop smart charging battery management software/hardware
We have used Level 1 charging on all of our short distance EV's with great results. I just sold a 2013 Leaf SL with 92% battery health. It did have an 80% charge setting.
Yes @@EngineeringExplainedI believe the temperate cool climate of Atlantic Canada mixed with level I charging, and temperature controlled parking at home makes a big difference compared to say parking on hot sun scorched pavement in Nevada during the summer while high speed charging. I hope someone builds a similar car with an air cooled "Sodium Battery" pack for everyone above the 45th parallel.
@@EngineeringExplainedI have a 2013 leaf but used very cheaply, and I don't know exactly how the previous owner treated it, but not too badly as when I bought it in late 2022 it had 11/12 battery health bars. I somewhat doubt this as it only really gets 50ish miles at highway speeds but it's worked for me. Personally I think NMC is too much if a tradeoff in terms of longevity for me, and I'm happy that the cheaper EVs tend to have LFP batteries that are less dense but are absolute tanks for longevity. Plus charging at home at 3kw is plenty fast for me :) great video btw!
@@smvsspould 6 years ago I bought a 2013 leaf with only the J1772 port so I know it was only Level 1 or 2 charged by the previous owner and there aren't any Chademo chargers nearby. It had 11/12 bars at the time, 50k miles later it still has 9/12 bars. Your doubts are well placed as the health bars aren't all equal. The first bar doesn't disappear until the battery has degraded about 15%, each of the other bars disappear after about half as much degradation, or about 7.5%. So your 11/12 bar leaf could have as little as 78% of the original capacity remaining which matches your observation of the highway range. 78% of 75 (the original mixed mileage range) = 58.5 miles. The range drops pretty fast at highway speeds too. I put a basic grill block on and went from 3.1 to 3.5 miles/kwh (all that air is just for cooling the AC condenser and I don't use the AC much) and smoothed the wheels and went from 3.5 to 4.1 miles/kwh and my regular commute is only about 60% highway. I'm glad to hear that charging to 100% isn't so bad at low temperatures since I get about the same range from 100% in the winter as I get from 80% in the summer. I switch it about the time I switch my all season tires for winter tires. And I agree, 3kw is generally fast enough with a little planning.
Including the dealerships. I ordered a BMW i4 and I could check my car this Monday. They charged the car to 100% and there are 35 Celsius max here for the whole week. I was a bit angry. Fortunately I get it on Friday, so the car will stay with 100% only for 5 days.
Excellent video Jason! My relation to this topic comes from 5 plus years of ownership of my 2018 Zero SR motorcycle which has a 14.4 KWh pack. I have a little less than 18,000 miles on the bike and have not had any issues nor noticed any battery degredation. This makes sense since I've followed basically the rules you have on this video. I store the bike at about 50% SOC during the winter months, I keep the SOC when riding between 40% and 80% normally, charge right away and only charge to 100% before taking longer rides. I think I just aquired this knowledge over time from different sources but this video was vindication for sure.
Fantastic. This is the first youtube presentation of Li-ion batteries that not only gets it right but also have real in depth explanation. It is probably not that obvious for the viewer why the cracking is the a problem as you explained SEI formation early and didn't mention the cracking when the intercalation materials expand exposing the electrodes so they form new SEI and lose capacity. A part 2 about charging speeds and temperature maybe even coupled with risk if lithium plating might also be interesting. BTW I used these guiding 'rules' above for the first EV I had. When I sold the Nissan Leaf 24 kWh (notorious for degradation), I still had SoH at 93% and 'all bars'. (I know this is not precise but a guidance).
Excellent video, Jason. I appreciate that you don't take a side, but rather evaluate things from an engineer's perspective, looking at the advantages, disadvantages, and requirements of the topic at hand.
As a fellow mechanical engineer, I can tell you we _always_ take a side. We side with what _really_ works best, by the numbers! Just kidding; we’re biased like everyone else.
@@altosack Sure. The bias is going to be towards what is the best way to meet requirements with the technologies and techniques available. E/E does a good job of talking about both the advantages and disadvantages in his videos. Out of Spec Reviews also operates in a similar vein, but his videos are always really long.
The only people insinuating that there are sides are the ones still breathing exhaust fumes and not looking at the numbers. We're all on the same side: Humanity's and/or the Earth's side. Some of us are just further along and more capable of understanding what is good for it (EV and battery technology, etc.), and others are getting left behind in their old thinking and believing that we're divided into two sides... Either way the end goal is the same, and we all want the same thing. Obviously we all understand there are still developments happening but the real hinderance are those completely opposed and uneducated, or those grouping us all into two sides-whether they think they're part of one side or not...
I don't have an EV, but I somewhat assumed they had "smart" controller that could automatically devise a good charging plan (with override if the user wants to make sure the battery is fully charged sometimes). While it's nice to make people aware about how to handle their batteries, it would probably be way more effective to have this built-in.
The smartest thing about most EV's is that they prevent you from charging to true 100% in the first place. There is usually a buffer that is not used. In my old Leaf, for example, the battery was 62kwh but the car actually only lets you use 55kwh (about 89%).
@Thirty-Ninety Yeah except the leaf thermal management was non-existent and they all have cooked batteries. Stay away from a battery with no thermal management in my opinion.
The display has nothing to do what is actually 100% or 5% ... Do you actually think theyd risk having to swap your battery in warranty 2 months befory it ends? Nah, they will do a "battery check", software update, suddenly you got 5% more range again than minimally allowed and you reach the end of warranty just fine.
I charge 80-85% in the winter due to colder temps and use 30-40% of that daily (I drive 80-120 miles) and in the spring / summer / fall I charge to 65-70% and effectively get the same range but using 20-30% of my SOC, better efficiency. My mid-range new had 64kwh Gross, 62.6kwh usable.. Today after 100k miles its got 58.6kwh usable / 61kwh gross. So 3kwh loss in 100k miles, and fun fact it lost 2kwh in the first 25,000 miles than it did losing the remaining 1kwh in 75000 miles. So realistically this car will get well over 250-300,000 miles before I hit the 85-90% degradation point. Overall its on point.
@@pissmyasslynch5325 I like it - I got my color sprayed in Autoflex + Clear coat (its peelable paint but ultra durable with real clear coat) I got 70,000 miles on it and it still looks great and is 13-15mil thick. Mantis Verde (lambo) + gold pearl - gold gives it a yellow vibe in sun.
My 4.5 year old M3P has only around 5% degradation- it’s literally NEVER been to 100%, even on long trips. (I find 95% works better for long trips, and still gives me regen.) Typically day to day, I use 40 to 70%, and ESPECIALLY in Summer I try to use 70% or less as absolute max except on a trip.
Hey Jason, I have an idea for helping us nerds and engineering geeks get the most out of your whiteboard discussions: zoom in on the portion of the whiteboard that you are discussing. A close shot will help us see the details, see your hard work, a little bit better. Would you consider that? PS the two Jason‘s videos you and Cammisa do are a hoot!
When I want to zoom in on the whiteboard I just use my two fingers on my iPad and it works great to get a better view of the whiteboard. It also helps me to slow the video down to .75 so I can absorb the information easier.
Love your video🤩 I charge my Tesla MS75D to 80% and charge every day, just 50-60 to 80 around the town. When going on long roadtrips, up to 95 or 100% just before driving , and run the battery down to 10% usually. Greetings from Oslo Norway😊
One thing to note is that manufacturers already eat some the true state of charge in their consumer stated range vs their actual charge range to protect the battery.
Depends. They can set 100% at whatever actual charge they want, but most manufacturers don’t really nerf their batteries much. Gotta have that Big Range Number. They only reduce to such an extent that they won’t end up with many warranty claims
@@FuncleChuck Every manufacturer reduces battery usable capacity. It depends on the philosophy of the OEM to what extent. Trade-off between range and warranty.
Thanks for the video. I recently tried to read up on these battery degrading effects but is seems like every google search is either very shallow or leads to full depth research papers focusing on very specific cases. Hard to get a decent overview so it's great you took the time to gather it up!
@@EngineeringExplained Yeah I wish there was more of a middle ground for the "science enthusiast lay person." Everything is either incredibly, incredibly simplified pop science stuff or highly, highly technical scientific journal articles in Nature Chemical engineering.
This is a very good summary of Jeff's video. However, there is one point that you mentioned in the video that Jeff did not state. He's a very nice man and I had a chance to correspond with him. You had said that you "Plug in all the time". I don't think this is required to get the longer life - and in some cases may hurt you. The perfect battery charge depends on chemistry, but is around 50% to 55%. That is the optimum SOC for your battery, except in really hot weather. Charging to 70% and then plugging in when you come home AND you are under 40% is very good, but don't if you are above. If you don't drive that much (leave at 70% and come home at 60%) then plugging in all the time and keeping your battery constantly above its "happy zone" is not optimum.
This is excellent information. I’m around a 110 outlet 24 hours a day and always have my car plugged in. It lives in the mid 60’s soc. Max charge to 70% daily and generally use 10% for my commute. I always wondered if it’s better to discharge more, now I know. Thanks!
Hope you can help with my marriage! my wife insists on following the instructions for charging, but your video makes more sense and by charging to 100% cannot be good, especially in the hot summer. I have always charged my 2019 Tesla M3LR to 80%, but our new MY RWD recommends to charge to 100%. I know different battery chemistry LFP, but confused where regen energy will go when batt is full and why tesla recommends this strategy. Can you help with this? I just did a $10 donation not knowing to type here first, so please find $2 more. love the channel!
You're welcome 8:35 Don't charge to 100% unless necessary. Lower the better. High voltage bad. 1:05 Don't store your battery at 100%, especially in hot environments for long periods of time. Heat bad. 4:35 Don't wait to recharge unless necessary. Frequent small charges in better. Deep cycle bad.
Thanks for a great video. It explains why I see a 17% degradation in my 6 year old plug in hybrid (VW Golf GTE). Almost all discharges are 100% to 0% and that can be several times a day.
I charge my Tesla Model 3 Long Range to 55% nightly at home. I usually only use 10 to 15 percentage points of battery daily. So, I am typically in a short usage/charging cycle range of 40% to 55% daily. I do charge to a higher percentage for heavy use or trip days. Thanks for the video!
Finally, a voice of reason. As for LiXXX chemistry (high density + high discharge rate), my years of experience say (basically from beginning of this chemistry): 1. Don't discharge to 0% and don't charge to 100%. 2. Use battery capacity between 20-80% (20-60% is preffered). 3. When in storage (max live, not used), charge/discharge to 50%, and keep it cool if available (5-10C).
I live by the 20-80% rule. Even on road trips I only had to fully charge once to reach the top of the mountain & return trip. Otherwise my EV Truck has only seen 80% charge limit it's entire life. Lowest was I believe 16%. Not hard to do when I charge daily, and just be aware when on a road trip. It will get easier once I can use the Superchargers this month.
@@larryc1616 Tesla recommends at least 1x per week though. For my charging habits: It's like the opposite, 1 or 2 days of not charging at all (per week). Most of the time I charge it to 100% (at home), because that's what I heard from Tesla or other people.
@@larryc1616the greater point of discussion with LFP is what to do in the interim between 100% charges. ie: is there an optimal state of charge or simply charge to 100% each day
Great info. It took me a lot of time and research to get to the same conclusions. Great job of packing it all into a short vid. Being retired and not much driving I keep my model y at 60%. Only charge higher when I know I going to need it. Also charge on 30 amp circuit which gen 2 mobile charger recognizes by which plug option you snap into it. There are 8 different plug options and four different current options. 15, 20, 30 and 50. By using the 30, it uses the 80% rule and charges at 24 amps. Nice and low. Super chargers are the least preferable way to charge if it can be avoided.
Thanks for putting this together, Jason. I've owned a Model 3 Performance for about 1.5 years now and have seen little to no degradation of the battery. I rarely charge to 100% (only on trips). My ideal capacity range has been 20%-80%. After watching this video, I will charge more frequently if below 80% and keep the cap there.
That's also why Samsung and a few other device manufacturers are giving you the battery health option. Instead of 100%, it'll stop at 80% max. This keeps it from losing capacity over time.
I have had a Bolt for 1.5 years now, I normally charge to 80% (may switch to 75% just to align with the mark on the display) with maybe 4 times a year top off overnight to 100% for a trip, and day-to-day temperature changes so far is more significant and masks any degradation. On a ideal temp day last year, 80% SoC was 242 miles and it is still that way today.
This is great and it also applies to essentially everything that uses Li-ion batteries, like phones and appliances. Good things to put in practice if you want to extract as much life off your batteries as you can.
My wife has a new iPhone and the battery can last 2+ days. I have been trying to get her to let it drain to 30% and charge to 80% like I do with the assumption that fewer charges is better. From this video, it sounds like she is right charging her phone daily (except that she charges to 100%). Am I wrong again?
@@garyganser2451The optimum is regular charging to say 80%. I get HUGE long life out of my iPhone batteries by doing that. (We have devices called “Chargie” to do that automatically).
I’d like a video going further in depth on the effects of a cold climate on vehicle batteries. I love watching any of your videos on my free time. Keep inspiring people like me to pursue an engineering degree!
The channel Out of Spec Reviews has done several videos with real world tests of how cold affects EVs. The very high level info for operating an EV in the cold is that it's best to have it plugged in when not in use. To precondition the battery before walking out the door or doing DC Fast Charging, and that in the worst case scenario you can lose up to half of your range when it is extremely cold. That said, plenty of people in places like Canada and Norway are driving EVs and don't seem to have a problem with it.
Even after all this information I still hear people spreading nonsense of battery degradation because their cousin Pete, who knows a guy, who has and uncle, who has a neighbor, that seen on TH-cam that an Uber/lyft driver who drives a Tesla. His battery pack failed because he used it too much.
To start, I really liked this video; it’s well made and informative. Something made me crack up though: « If you don’t know what chemistry your electric car battery uses, and why would you »… Then goes on to explain the chemistry at length… Seriously, the only thing I take with a grain of salt is number 3: not charging at 100% regularly. First, my automaker says there is a buffer to make sure 100% is never quite 100%. Then, I heard multiple times that some studies shows some EV were only down less than 10% of their original capacity after somewhere around 200k miles. So, I wonder why I should limit myself to 75% (or 80% like a lot of people say) for 200K miles, only to make sure I lose less than 10% capacity… which I will never use anyway, because I always limit myself! I like that, even though you explain it all and say it all make sense on paper, you still agree that we shouldn’t stress about it, because the battery will probably outlive the car.
I charge my Leaf when it reaches 40% at up to 75%, that give me about 50-mile range which is more than enough for my daily use. Excellent video, I watched the LFP first which is awesome too, nice work, subscribed.
Is there any way to determine how and EV was used/charged if you’re shopping on the used market? I know vehicles can show degradation amount but would that tell the whole story about how it’ll perform for a 2nd or 3rd owner?
There are a couple of third party apps that can track this, and Tesla vehicles have the ability to do a self-diagnosis that can show if there's been battery degradation, but I believe you can only access that info via the service menu. (You can find videos on how to do this on YT.)
@@Green_Tea_Coffee gotcha, yeah so probably prudent to have one of those OBDII diagnostic tools/apps when shopping around. I presume then it’ll just show the level of degradation but not any detail like how often it was lest sitting at 100% or how many DCFC cycles it has experienced? Just want to keep in the know when it does eventually come time to get a new vehicle like an EV how to find the best one.
if you abuse a gas/diesel engine and transmission with constant hard acceleration or towing huge heavy loads day in and day out and neglect changing the oils and fluids regularly being totally mad when they both give out at 80k miles instead of 300k miles. its just basic care of a different variety.
@@Foche_T._Schitt A cheap ICE. A very cheap one. We're now starting to see reports of well cared for EVs leaving their previous owners hands after 10 years with more than 90% of their battery life remaining. That exceeds the longevity of ICEs by a substantial margin, which by ten years have usually developed numerous, troubling mechanical faults. EVs just have less moving parts. There's less to wear down, it's more chemistry, and the fewer moving parts, the more materials science improvements effect longevity. ICE engines are also struggling to match both the efficiency and usability of electric motors, and the tech industry is being pushed continually by regulators towards right to repair. The main long term cost of EVs for owners at the moment is the cost of repair. Once that's regulated and third party after market replacements become commonplace, the cost of EVs will drop like a stone.
Amazing video! I have been thinking about this topic for a while now. Please make a video about the new LFP batteries that are being used in the New Teslas. Thank you for all of the work that you put in this video. I really appreciate how you broke down complex topics and made them easily understandable Once again, thank you.
I have a townhouse with a parking space and am unable to charge at home, but my gym has level 2 chargers. I charge there regularly without a hitch. Also my HOA is working with local Govt to install charging stations at central areas in our development. Someday I believe every space will have the ability to charge AKA I'll be able to charge at home. But for now I have found an easy work around. There will hopefully be opportunities like this for more people soon.
@@larryc1616 Yeah, you have to be pretty far down the coolaid bottle to have figured this out. Most don't have a clue about battery tech advances. Batteries will (store the) planet's power before we know it. too much FUD out there.
I was hoping you would get into low charge issues. I regularly do a long drive where I use 70% of my battery. Is it better to overcharge a bit to avoid a very low battery by the time I get home, or vise versa?
Low battery percentage is fine, but it's kinda a comfort thing. It feels more relaxing knowing you'll arrive home at 15%, rather than say 2%, in case an issue pops up and you get stuck/etc.
@@EngineeringExplained Typically, you'll leave around 50 to 100km of reserve. That's when many normal cars indicate that the fuel tank is completely empty (it isn't). When a battery gets empty, the internal resistance increases and thus the temperature can rise quickly if a lot of power is drawn. A known issue, for example in RC models. It should be avoided.
Very helpful video! My wife just got a model 3 and the Tesla app recommends charging to 100% "once per week to maintain battery health". Why is this recommended when it goes against the physics of the battery chemistry?
Normally the Battery Management System (BMS) counts electrons leaving the battery and also whats going back in during regen braking and partial charging. Over several cycles this method of accounting for State of Charge can drift off, but its reset back to 100% when fully charged. For LiFePO4 chemistry the midrange SOC voltage curve is so flat that the BMS can’t balance the cells correctly. So fully charging it ensures they are all topped off, and as long as all their capacities are still matched, they will stay in balance all the way to 0%. If its NMC Li-ion chemistry, it shouldn’t need to be charged to 100% every week because that SOC curve isn’t so flat. The LiFePO4 pack however might try to balance the pack at 50% all week and actually cause an imbalance, and then if you drive it that one low cell group can trigger turtle mode while waiting for the BMS to move all that energy back (assuming it has active balancing). Unfortunately these high tech cars won’t even allow you to see the information my $1000 ebike tells me. I can open a Bluetooth app, and it shows me the voltage of all my cells, and the battery temperature, and if i want I can click “start autobalance “ and it will balance until all cells are the same voltage. There are apps for tesla that let you see that, which should be available in the main screen. Then you can watch that and when cell voltage drift too far off after several partial charges you can fully charge it so it will enter balance mode (since tesla will not allow you to charge the settings, just view the data)
@@imho7250 Very helpful reply!! Thank you for taking the time to explain it all. I believe our car is a LiFePO4 because it's a 2023 RWD. I will check out a monitoring app to learn more about our specific car to see what it's thinking. Thanks again!
@@HandsomeAlex25 , yes, I saw online “For LFP Battery: You can determine whether your vehicle is equipped with an LFP Battery by navigating to Controls > Software > Additional Vehicle Information.” I don’t know the settings Tesla uses for balancing each type of chemistry. In my BMS I can choose Li-ion or LiFePo4 which sets default presets, but I can modify them to suit my preferences. Tesla can’t really allow owners to change settings beyond what they allow because it could interfere with charging, especially DC fast charging. But if you have the app that can read the cell voltages you can probably see which charge limit gets them high enough to show any imbalances, and then as that grows to about 0.02v, if the pack cannot balance there, and can only balance at 100%, then you would know its time to do a balancing charge at home with the on-board charger. I don’t know how easy they make it now to connect. It should be in the Tesla software but some manufacturers will not make it easy for everyone to see because then if they see something insignificant they will call Telsa and ask why all the cells aren’t perfectly balanced all the time.
... so far so good; theory and correct. Cars have a battery management system (BMS) - in practice: IONIQ5 about 50,000 km for 3 years - degradation less than 3% in the first year. We rarely charge to 100%, but we do before a trip. And if the car sits for 6 hours, then something like that is not relevant in practice. ... but THX for your video.
I would like to see a full video on the fast charging topic you mention at the end. I've noticed that if I slow charge from a low percentage up to 100% then I get about 10% more range compared to charging at a fast charger.
I am not educated about this at all, but If I were to guess, I think it might be parasitic loss from heat. Faster charging speeds = higher voltage = more energy = more heat My uneducated assumption is that some energy is being turned into heat energy rather than transferring to the battery 100% of the way. Again, this is my uneducated guess, I'm not at all an expert about this and only have a faint understanding of the concept.
Easy answer: Tesla superchargers recommend right on your computer screen - limit 80%. Two reasons. 1.) 100% (80-100% take almost as long as 40-80%, so unless you need the extra 20% to get to your next charge station - don’t waste the time. 2.) at 100% and especially in warm temps outside - you don’t want to sit idle ( batteries will loose your future range capacity through heat/hot chemical reactions that can easily be avoided at 80% max charge. ( think of it as a topped up to full gas tank sitting idle on a hot day - it may spill over loosing range) EV’s would be loosing range by vapour spillover ( my thoughts), but unlike gas lost in the moment, it’s like range lost forever 🧐
I recently replaced the sealed lead acid battery in a booster pack. The specifications had detailed data on charge cycles, etc. and many of the same observations as in your video (avoid high temperatures, deep discharge cycles, so on).
The one difference with lead acid is they should be kept at 100% SoC as much as possible. When a lead acid battery is discharged, the sulfur in the sulfuric acid sticks to the lead plates. This is reversed by charging the battery, but the longer you wait to charge the battery the harder this layer of sulfur gets. When the layer gets harder it won’t convert back to acid as easily. Also, the acid gets weaker as the battery discharges. This means the electrolyte freezes easier, and a frozen battery will end up with bent and shorted lead plates.
There's a lot of low-range cars with 28-36 Kw batteries, doing 20-70% is a no-go for many of us, even if we charge at home, because during winter it will take quite a bit of the energy from-and-to work. I do top it up at work to 100% as I have a 35Kw battery on mine, after a year I've seen absolutely zero degradation, it still tops at 100 percent every day.
On bmw i3 cell balancing only starts when it is charged to 100%. It is stated in the manual that it is suggested to plug in as often as it is possible and stay connected over night. The BMS will do everything instead of you. There are many i3s with more than 400k kms with over 80% of their design capacity, even cars that had only 100-130 km range on new, so they are over 4000 full charges
You answered one of my questions. We just bought a Chevy Bolt EUV. I've been recently plugging it into 110V in my garage and doing a trickle charge overnight for multiple nights. I wasn't sure if this was bad for my battery. Sounds like it is better than doing a full charge using a level 2 charger. I should also mention that I've only charged on level 2 and level 1 (in my garage at 110V). Have not charged using a Level 3
From a perspective of battery health, level 1 vs. level makes no significant difference. But, from the perspective of minimizing one's electricity bill, level 2 is more energy efficient, plus the faster speeds of level 2 make it easier to schedule all of the charging to happen during cheap off-peak electricity rates. Really, the only reason to charge off of level 1 is to avoid the up-front financial expense of installing the level 2. But, once the level 2 is installed, there is no reason not to just use it all the time.
Thanks Jason! I generally followed these rules over the past decade, but having explanations behind it helps to further educate more people. I've had 6 EVs and I did an unintentional experiment on one of them, a 2013 Fiat 500e. For 20k miles, I charged to 100%, and drove it to 10-15% twice a day. At the start of those 20k miles, I had 22 kWhs of usable capacity. By the end, I had 18 kWhs. The next 20k miles, I had moved closer to work, and began only charging to 80%, and drove it down to 30%, once a day. In that 20k miles, I only lost 1 kWh of usable battery capacity. So I slowed my degradation from ~20%, down to ~5%, every 20k miles.
@rogerphelps9939 true. I didn't want to many stats, but my first 20k miles were between 30,000-50,000 from 2019-2020, and the second 20k was from 50,000-70,000 odo miles, from 2020-2023. It had already degraded from 24 kW-22kWh usable, in the first 30,000 miles and 6 years, when I purchased it used.
We recently upgraded to an EV6 and absolutely adore it. We're also keeping it between 40 and 80% SoC with the rare charge to 100% SoC. We previously had a 2017 Kia Soul EV with a 27kWh battery. With the car's lack of battery thermal management and no apparent way to set a max SoC target, the battery degraded rather quickly. Max range new was around 90 miles. Our range despite getting 3.5-4mi/kW was only about 50mi max lol. It was definitely a "My First EV". We thanked it for its service and upgraded to an adult EV(the aforementioned EV6) and we absolutely love it. Our EV6 is set to 80% SoC max which translates to about 300miles of range in the winter. 0% complaints there.
Hi could you do one for LFP batteries aswell, i am from India here the largest ev maker by he name: TATA makes ev cars with lfp battery composition and many manufacturers seem to be switching to lfp batteries here.Our climate is hot and roads are under developed. I want o know what makes lfp batteries better than nmc bateries for our climate.
LFP are very baf in cold temperatures. Specifically you cannot charge them under 0 dec C. The main advantage is cost, so of course it will be the main choice if the temperatures don't go too low
LFP is a great chemistry. Only major downsides are that they are heavier and take up more space per kwh than NMC/NCA. Bad for very long range EVs or lightweight EVs, but great for general EVs.
@@danielvipin7163 Typically, yes. Some of the cheapest LFP would be in line or possibly below the highest end NMC. But that's just extremes. If you get decent LFP cells, they are normally going to last longer than NMC for the same kwh. That said, when it comes to cars, you aren't tracking age in cycles. Rather you are tracking in miles or km. And NMC packs are normally larger capacity, allowing for more miles/km per charge cycle. So they may even out in that case.
Yes! I've been trying to get my wife to understand that charging to 100% all the time isn't good. I limit the charge to 80% and try to make her understand to not use up the whole charge. This video will help prevent further arguments😅 thanks!
Folks, I already shared my thoughts about this topic, as an Electrical Engineer (with Major in Battery) for 20+ years. The best charging % frame is BETWEEN 30% - 70% (because 40% - 60F is really NOT possible for 90+% of people who drive an EV) (IF you will have a Long Road Trip, charge it to 100%, then use it until 10% before you will go back to your normal 30% - 70% charging habit) Again, just STAY WITHIN 30% - 70% and you will be fine for years to come. Have a great day to y'all!
That’s 40% of usable battery. Not very practical if you don’t have home charging. Not arguing with the chemistry, that is definitely the best way to preserve the battery, it’s just not feasible for many. My view is use 5 - 80%.
GM did a study years ago for the Chevy Volt (and repeated with similar results many times). ~80% of daily drives are under 40 miles. So 80% of drivers can do 40-60% in most modern EVs if they charge overnight. 30-70% would probably cover 90%+ of daily drives.
The issue with adapting this to phone batteries is an EV battery could potentially last 3-4 days before needing to be recharged (which means you can use that 20% range to get best longevity) When was the last time your phone was able to last a whole day (of actual usage) on 20%, or even 40% charge? Charge your phone to 40% and see how long it lasts without you changing your usage habits Only way I can get a day out of 50% was buying a phone with a 22,000mah battery (Doogee V max)
So the interesting part for me in fast charging, that a study showed a graph of 2 car's battery degradation. One was charged 90% on the Supercharger network, the other one was charged 90% at home. The graph didn't show major difference in between the two. So that means I should be safe with fast charging on a daily basis? Well not really. There was an other guy couple months ago, who used his model 3 for riding Uber, and he supercharged his car twice a day (yes edge case, but it happended, and it would happen with other drivers who have to make long trips often for some reason.). His battery died after a year, driving "only" 120k miles, due balancing issues. Warranty is limited to 100k... Bummer (or well calculated?) The degradation itself just one factor among the all of the failures these batteries can "produce".
That uber driving scenario sounds like one that could be avoided by periodically slow charging to 100%. Balancing all the cells every few dozen cycles never hurts.
Yeah I believe it was a standard range and he charged it always past 90. So no wonder his battery didn’t last. I did ubering with my 2018 model 3 long range for like 4 months full time and supercharged twice a day but never went past 70/75 percent. Lost about one mile after I stopped ubering. Staying below 80 percent for daily use really does help and why it’s recommended by the manufacturer. The car even tells you lol. Only do past 80 when I’m going on vacation.
My first EV ist now 10 years old, Smart ED, small 19kWh battery, high C and SoC use, was usually parked with 95% SoC. After 10 years 82% still left, thats good for such an ancient battery. Now LFPs took over, lets see how they will last, they got so good (3C charge rate) that they replaced the need for the more expensive and larger NCMs
Yeah 400,000 miles is 50% degradation of 800,000 miles but the car will rust to shreds before you hit 400,000. The battery replacement scare was already a tempest in a teacup in 2012. Today that issue is about as real as the immaculate conception.
Aluminum cars do not rust but I get your point. After over 200,000 miles I just replaced a battery on one of my Teslas… And I did literally everything wrong, so as you point out this really is not that big of an issue.
I own a Model 3 for three years now and I can't charge at home. I drive 650 km a month, short distance commuting. I exclusively use Superchargers once a week. Everything is fine with the car, still 460+ km of range at 100%.
Why did you buy a tesla if you can't charge from home? In my area the cost per mile is literally twice of the cost of a prius if you charge at a supercharger.
@@TonyShepps according to Google supercharger can charge up to $ .50/kwh. At 4 miles per kwh a tesla model 3 would cost $ .125 per mile. With the current gas price of $2.80 at 55 mpg a prius would cost $.051 per mile. This may be an extreme example but clearly in all cases it will cost more for fuel to drive a tesla than a prius. Also don't forget the tesla tires last half as long and cost twice as much to replace.
@@jimfarmer7811 Please point me to the actual Tesla supercharger in the lower 48 that costs $.50/kWh. I've never encountered one in 3.5 years of ownership and supercharging in 12 states. My average charge in 2023 was $.32. Lowest $.24, highest $.36. Of course most of my charging is at home, where it's half that price. And I will happily put any additional price of my tires against just the *routine* maintenance of oil, oil filters, coolant, water filters, belts, lubrication and adjustment, and worst of all, having to go to the gd dealership every six months. But the best thing about having an M3LR versus a Prius is: HOLY CRAP I GET TO DRIVE AN M3LR AND NOT A PRIUS!!!
@@TonyShepps Seriously you are comparing the $120/yr I pay for scheduled maintenance to your tesla. I would be embarrassed to admit that I bought a car that depreciated $25,000 to $30,000 in 3 years. You must not have retirement plans.
The Chevy Volt (pioneering plug-in hybrid) engineers set up the battery to only charge 30-80% SOC. In a way the battery was twice as big as it needed to be, but they felt it was with it to deliver reliability. The Leaf (EV only) of the same era had major battery degradation issues.
@@zacrossen1968 I think of PHEVs as electric on a typical day and conventional hybrids on road trips. People will criticize it as "carrying an engine you're not using most of the time and carrying an electric battery you're not using on road trips," but my physics and engineering educated opinion is that weight matters 65% less to vehicles with regenerative braking. So the only fundamental problem along those lines is the space they take up.
Hey Jason, this is a great video and I have watched Dr J Dahn's video on this too. My 2015 model S battery is only charged to 70% for driving longer distances over 100km and I do charge the car for the trip back to 70%, I use about 30% for most trips. On days were the temperature is above 28 deg C, the charge is around 30-50%. The cars battery easily will do 400km on a full charge after 9 years of use.
Most of these battery saving practices should be known to people already even if you don't know the "why?" part . Because all these are discussed for smartphones using lithium batteries almost 10 years ago.
The problem is, a lot of the tribal knowledge about batteries predates Li-Ion batteries -- advice such as "the first charge should be to 100%" don't apply to modern batteries, yet it persists. Similarly, a lot of things that DO apply to modern batteries haven't achieved the same level of cultural penetration. Case in point, I'm pretty well connected as far as EV insider knowledge is concerned, and even I thought using a supercharger to even get to 70% was awful for the battery. According to this video, though, it's really not a big deal.
The high speed charging option is provided only to batteries that are designed to for fast charging. Again the only reason why you shouldn't be using a fast charger is because of the heat produced during fast charging. If you can maintain a low temperature during fast charging, its pretty much same as slow charging.
@@MariuszChryep exactly the reason. Back when smartphones were introduced people really cared about getting the maximum life out of battery. But these days smartphones are comparatively cheap so no fuzz over it. That day for cars is also not that far.
It’s the same with hard disks too Idk if you’ve ever had one but a 1024GB (1TB) hard disk only has about 800-900GB real space and that’s after factoring for the error between gigabyte and gibibyte
Aha, you are that "most people" kind of guy, that think your job commute of 5km, from a house with 3 electric charger installed to a job that also have electric chargers are "most peoples" situation. And we should just neglect all that are not "most people" because it works for you. Let´s throw in that horse and wagon argument too, that is100% irrelevant for the people that can not have an electric car. Oh, and make up a story about a 3000 mile roadtrip where you did not have to wait for charging even once, because you need to go to the toilet for 45 minutes every 2nd hour@@tjshire
@@thoos192, I'm not sure what your point is here. Yes, I referred to the average distance most Americans travel in a day, which is well within the capabilities of most EVs, even in freezing temperatures when EVs will have a range 30% below EPA estimates. Are you implying that my comment is misleading or not factual? If so, please present your data.
But they already do, there are spare blocks to replace bad ones. So a better comparison is that you buy a 1TB hard drive, it's just that the manufacturer needed to create a 1.1TB hard drive. It's all about the semantics then.
Sure, Tesla even has more range than 0km left actually beung 12km left. Tesla cars charge to 90% by default and Tesla sells different sizes with the same battery but dofferent software limits.
@@Loanshark753I don't think that's the case with Tesla for a few years now. It was only happening with Model S/X before 2020 (the ones with a number suggesting the battery size like 75d,90d, 100d, p85 etc). Currently model 3/y standard range has different battery than long range/performance
@@Loanshark753He's talking about a hidden limit the owner can't see, basically a buffer. The car will show the owner that it's at "100%" even when it technically isn't.
This is a very informative and important video. I ussually think that it is better to charge a battery at 20% to 80% rather than small charges in between, now i know i should do small charges for my phone, and if i ever own an ev on the future.. It is hard though to store ev away from heat in my country, as i live at a tropical country, so maybe if i ever own EV in the future, it is better to set to charge only to 70% at max.
Thanks so much for this video Jason. I am about to buy my first EV (a Peugeot E-2008) and was concerned about the battery longevity. These tips will be very useful and your excellent clear explanation of how the batteries degrade made perfect sense. Great work.
I did this with my phone and it's only just starting to get a shorter battery life after 5-6 years. Tried to keep it between 30 and 80% battery when I could.
I fully charge mine every night. I e had it for four years now and the battery still seems the same as when it was new. I'm a fairly heavy user and normally have about 35% remaining by the time I go to bed.
I ALSO have a 6+ year old phone which is charged to 100% EVERY night but has rarely, IF EVER, seen a SOC below 50%. My needs are simple and I simply don't use the phone for watching videos, gaming, etc. The ONLY Social Media platforms I use are email, text messages, and Signal for strictly family relationships. Not interested in Facebook, Instagram, Tik Tok, nor X (Twitter). I control my phone's usage, IT does not control my life! It's so sad to see people's faces buried in their damn phone screen virtually constantly.
Why.. Unless you are in the insignificant portion of the population that needs the full range of the vehicle every charge. Nothing wrong with charging to 100 percent occasionally for a long road trip. By the way. New gas cars require the fuel pump to be immersed in gasoline to keep cooled. That means you should not drive your gas car down to zero gas in the tank. Should their range be adjusted also?
@@thomaswilson2917 ok but in-tank fuel pump = $200-$300 and dropping the fuel tank EV battery: between $10,000 and $30,000 depending on vehicle and manufacturer
@@lsswappedcessna you refurbish a EV battery if it every needs replacing.. Notice the word IF.. Yes it costs more but the discussion was about range reporting..
This is all great in theory, but I have a 150 mile commute round trip and charge my Ioniq 6 daily from ~20% to 80%, occasionally charging to 90-100% at home. Not too helpful for us long commuters.
Nice topic and video! My anecdote: we own a 2015 Fiat 500e that stays plugged in and charged to 100% (no option for less). It shows no discernable degradation (must still be within the built-in buffer). We don't drive it much (47K), mostly getting groceries so shallow discharges, with a bit deeper discharge (45%) every other month or so, and really deep discharges limited to under 5 since we've owned it (6 yrs).
Great video. I'm about to take deliver of a Model 3 LR RWD. Daily commutes will be sub 40 miles, charging at home in hot southern summers. 60% should cover this with range for emergencies if needed.
I bought a badly degraded model Y 85% battery health. I’m cycling the battery 65% - 35% on the daily and hope I can get an extra 100k miles out of this thing.
Unfortunately Stellantis didn't implement any functionality to limit the SoC, so if I forget to stop the charging manually it will end up at 100%. It's ok during the winter months, but in the Summer a limit at 75 or 80 % would be a quite useful feature.
@@tullo5564 yeah, that would be significantly more expensive and I'd have to waste so much time when driving to gas stations. Additionally I'd have to blast all my waste-gases in the streets where people are walking and I'm not sure if they'd be happy with that.
@@das_f.l.x Filling up a gas tank is "significantly" easier and way faster. Furthermore, lithium mining produces more environmental hazards than a diesel/petrol powered vehicle would ever produce. So kindly get your facts straight, that would help you "significantly"
@@tullo5564 That's actually not true. There's no need to drive to a specific station just to refill an electric vehicle. You would just park it inside your garage and it will be charged the next time you use it. The average time I've spent for this process would be around 15-20 seconds, because there is no need to supervise your car while charging. Regarding your claims about raw materials, please feel free to provide a scientific study with appropriate methodology to proove your point.
Thank you. I’m very happy with my battery Lithium lawn equipment, and while I will never go back to gas, it’s very difficult applying these charging methods, and it’s incredibly frustrating then having to carry around the same weight of batteries, but they have lost 60-80% capacity as they originally had and it’s environmentally terrible and very expensive to replace them - you have to carry around all this dead weight to get value out of them, and even then one battery could have purchased years of fuel energy. This is the only time I miss gas, with the longer run times, lighter weight, cheaper to purchase and cheaper to run than Lithium lawn equipment. I hope engineers and scientists can overcome weight and battery degradation, because it’s great using battery lawn equipment, with little to no vibration, no pollution at the user end and little maintenance and no handling of fuel.
I left the sirens of San Francisco for the leaf blowers of Belmont, is a joke I make since moving to the 'burbs. Yah, great comment in light of municipalities moving to ban gas powered lawn appliances, particularly blowers, due to everything you mentioned. I feel bad adding weight to the guys I see around our neighborhood.
I just sold an Honda PHEV with ~70k miles and ~6 years on it, and that battery was well under 80% health. It only had ~11 kWh useable left of its original 17 kWh total rating. Its life was going from whatever it called full to whatever it called empty 5 times a week, and charging back to full again at ~1.5 kW slow charge every night. Likely an NMC tech, it was really not designed for its actual use, and there was literally no user-controllable settings to prevent 100% charge.
I bought our first EV last May so we haven't even had it a full year yet. It is a 2014 Chevy Spark EV. It originally had 21 kWh of capacity in its battery when new, based on our experiences and my calculations I believe it currently has about 14.4 kWh of capacity remaining. In the warmer months this gives us 60-70 miles of range but during these colder months we're down to about 45-55 miles of range. Thankfully this is still sufficient for our intended use. I have my son driving it for his daily commute to school which is 16 miles each way. When he started driving it regularly in the fall he would return home with about half of the charge remaining, now in the cold months he often returns home with less than 20% charge remaining. Unfortunately for our use we really have no choice but to fully charge the battery every night. We're still using the car's included level 1 charger, although I'm considering installing a level 2 charger this year. I really like this car and I'd love to get a lot of use out of it before we have to consider replacing the battery pack (for many reasons, not the least of which is that Chevrolet no longer supports this car). It had 36k miles when we bought it and we've already put on more than 6k of our own miles. Only time will tell. Thanks for the great video.
What does it mean when a manufacturer no longer supports a car? For appliances and electronics it means no more help, no more software updates, no more parts and no repairs done by them. For a car I can understand the first two but it’s normal to be able to get parts for a car for years after it’s no longer being sold new, and normal for garages to still fix them.
@@Sashazur Car companies are only required to maintain a supply of safety related parts (airbags, seat belts, etc) for ten years after a model is produced. Theoretically they could not stock a single spare for any other component after a car leaves the factory. In practice they maintain enough to cover warranty claims (3-5 years) and little else. I needed a return line for a 2001 Jeep Cherokee fuel tank in 2007. They made almost 3 million of those Jeeps, but mine was one of the last out the door they stopped production of everything else with it. Every Chrysler dealer I contacted told me it was impossible to get just that individual part. I would have to get an entire fuel tank assembly with all of the lines for well over a grand or get the line from a junk yard. I got one from a salvage yard, along with two tail gate bump stops for less than $70. Not standing behind their products like that is why I will never own another FCA, Stellantis, whatever they are called this week, ever again. I have an easier time getting parts for my 1950-1960s Studebakers than my modern cars.
I'm surprised people have to replace the batteries. We have a 2014 volt, still using the same battery and I don't notice a meaningful drop in distance.
Well, that's the things with mean time between failure. Sure, they are supposed to last 10 years, but some will be 6 and replaced under warranty, some will be 7 and get a huge bill, but then some will be 13 or 14 too.
TLDR: Don't store battery at 100% (for long periods of time). Don't wait until the battery is completely empty to recharge, just plug it in after every trip if you can. Don't charge to 100% every time. Charge to 75% if you can instead.
@@Ozark_Bule not really make sense like that, as this applies to all gadgets also, phones, laptops, etc. If you want to prolong their battery life in the long term you will take a little more care of them (when possible).
I have a 2018 model 3 long range with 130,000 miles. I charge it to only 75 percent and degradation has been minimal. They even recommend to not charge past 80 unless needed. So it’s definitely being used as intended. It’s been the simplest car yet. Maintenance has been minimal as well compared to all the ICE I’ve owned. No problems. Going strong. Both can be problematic yes but it’s all on how you take care of it.
Stuff everybody should know, but you realize hardly anyone knows. Just watched a video of a range test in LR 3 and the guy charged to 100% THE NIGHT BEFORE so it set all night at full and he ended up leaving the house with 98%. I wanted to yell at my screen.
@@EngineeringExplained In fairness, that's brand dependent. Teslas can, but I had a 2017 Bolt that, if I recall correctly, didn't have scheduled charging yet. It didn't even have a "charge limit" setting. Fortunately, it *did* have "hill top reserve" which set a 90% charge limit (better than nothing).
Nicely done. In brief, target keeping your battery around the center of its range for normal use. For example, a Bolt with a 260 mile range the center is 130 miles. If you normally commute 40 miles a day, set the target charge to 150 miles overnight. when you drive 40 miles the next day it will drop to 110 miles of range left, enough for a good unexpected trip with the car. and when you plan a longer trip set the target higher the night before accordingly
Really appreciate the in depth reasons for best practice battery care. In my case the power rates are lower off peak, but I will still want to keep the car plugged in so the battery cooling can take place in hot weather.
What? Electric doesn’t make sense if you cannot charge at home!? Here in the Netherlands I can charge at 3 chargers within 50 meters of my house and even without that I don’t mind stopped at a supercharger. The price of electricity is about four (4!!) times lower than petrol per km. Also say my battery will get “only” 1500 cycles before it’s done, then that is about 500 000 km or 310 000 miles. That’s gonna take me about 30 years!! I’ll probably want another car before that.
If you have three chargers within 50m of your house, then you effectively have charging at home…which proves the point. I’m very supportive of EV’s but they’re not perfect for everyone. Increased infrastructure is the solution and you seem to already be benefiting from it in your country.
@@Andrew-kj9fz Most of the time, I avoid those since they are too expensive and just stop by a supercharger though (which yes admittedly also 3 within 80 km). A benefit of living with many people per square mile in the Netherlands.
How are we defining "Storing" and "Hot"? I live in Florida where the car in the garage or outside can easily hit 100+ degrees and sometimes go a week without being driven. I keep my SOC at 70% and plug in whenever I return.
Thank you for the explanation. Basically (in theory), battery degradation is the same: charging once a week from 0% to 100% vs charging 5 times a week from 40% to 60%. 😊
Here in Chile, in my company, we have more than 800 electrical buses with around 250KWh of original capacity, bought almost yearly from 2016 to 2023. We currently don't see a significant (statistically) degradation in capacity (SoH) even after 300.000 KM, but we take precautions: we avoid charging to 100% wen in the higher side of the city to avoid loosing the possibility of recharging on the road, we do a full charge at least once a week, we rotate the buses from different routes, we don't start routes with less than 30% of charge to avoid running out of energy due to unexpected problems on the road. We have some cases of degradation of around 3%, but once again, on a fleet analysis, degradation = 0% statistically.
That's a lot of work to keep degradation to around 0.
Thanks for sharing! Curious - why do you do a full charge once a week?
@@EngineeringExplained LFP maybe?
@@SwordFighterPKN Thats not that much work for a fleet. Fleet maintenance is serious work
@@SwordFighterPKN Don't think so, not hard to keep track on usage and charging can be done on a vehicle base automatically.
Just have to setup software once.
And rotating vehicle routes is also something you do with ICE buses as well.
Watching these videos makes me way less fun at parties
Having never been fun at parties, I have nothing to lose.
Ha! Maybe you need to find a different party?
@@am00019 😅
When enough people want to buy or properly maintain their EV, you’ll become “that interesting guy at the party that is really smart”.
😂 Yep. I have that problem, too.
See timestamps for points, reasoning and caveats:
1) 0:58 don't store your car at 100% battery for long periods
2) 4:30 Don't wait to charge your car (many short changes are preferable to fewer big charges)
3) 8:30 Don't regularly charge to 100%
bunch of rules that reduce effective range...
@@SoloRenegade every rule says* when needed.
Also he says it is still the manufacturer requirements to solve the problems. They are going to do what they need for warranty period.
Thanks for summing it up. Are you the AI everyone is talking about?
@@ralanham76 you're missing teh point. EVs already have their work cut out for them as they fail to live up to the hype. but on top of that to ensure the batteries don't prematurely fail, they have to be operated at perpetual states of much reduced range, regardless of all teh other issues compounding, such as cold weather.
@@SoloRenegade it's up to the manufacturer to make it last 100k for the warranty nothing more
This video will be shared like crazy in the EV forums, among new owners. Well done
2014 Tesla model S… Just replaced my battery yesterday after 220,000 miles... And based on this video I did pretty much everything wrong 🙂
Ten years and 220k miles while doing everything wrong on the first gen EV doesn't sound that bad. I would say it is in line with what Jason said. You can prolong tha battery life to the point where it will easily survive rest of the modern EV, but even if you don't care it will still survive long enough so the most people wouldn't care.
There are a lot of people who will never do 220k with their car. Heck, lot of them won't do this amount in 20 years of driving.
Would you describe your charging behavior so we can learn how "everything wrong" looks like? 😉
How much did you spend?
@@j.c.ubagox873$15000 plus labor, $225.00/hr
The good news is with these practices in place you’ll have a million miles on it before it needs to be replaced again! 😂
With the high number of LFP batteries now being sold, it would be fantastic if you could make a similar video focused on LFP.
Yep, definitely think so as well!
I just put 15.000km on my MG4 standard with an LFP battery. I am asking myself the same things. Unlike the NMC versions, the LFP one does not even have a battery health mode. They actively coded it out. So I assume LFP is more robust to high SOC charging.
One thing I know for sure is that they have an incredible low temperature sensitivity. Even without heating or AC the range plummeted at -5°C (to 60% of what it is at 20°C) My guesstimation is that internal resistances or reactive potential drop at low temperatures. In any case that should be avoided if you live in a cold place.
I was thinking the same. I would also be curious to see Lipo difference?
Yes I would also love an additional explanation on LFP batteries! I would love to see similar information on how they handle cold, heat, sitting for long periods of time, and if sitting at a high state of charge versus a low state of charge affects them. Or maybe even a video on future or upcoming battery technologies like Solid State or something, though that might be harder to cover engineering information on since they're so new or even undeveloped. @@EngineeringExplained
@@quintonstevenslithium iron phosphate is interesting in that you can't charge it at all if it's below freezing. It is however less sensitive to heat and can have very long cycle lifes. I recently got some large format (280ah) prismatic cells shipped over from China to build a battery for my RV. It's at the point where it was cheaper upfront for me to order 8 lifepo4 cells and two 150 amp bms and pay sea freight than to go down to Sam's club and pickup 8 6 volt deep cycle lead acid batteries. Once you factor in the life span differences it's a fraction of the cost of a large lead bank.
The real challenge will be getting the general consumer to actually follow these best practices. Even after decades of preaching we still can't get people to follow routine oil changes.
In general with this sorta thing we should hide it behind software. That's why we have charging curves for example
It's not always possible of course
I definitely agree that more education needs to get out to consumers, especially those looking to purchase EVs. That said, I also wonder if it would be possible or even practical to handle all of this on the software side, so that it is done automatically without much needed input from the user.
A lot of it is already handled by software. There are buffers to prevent max and min charge, safeguards to prevent charging in conditions that could damage the battery, etc. Like he said, even if you ignore all this advice, your battery will likely last a long time, even past the warranty. These are just if you want make it last as long as possible.
People don’t do it for their phone/laptops. They sure as hell won’t do it for their car.
That’s why mfg should develop smart charging battery management software/hardware
We have used Level 1 charging on all of our short distance EV's with great results. I just sold a 2013 Leaf SL with 92% battery health. It did have an 80% charge setting.
Very impressive for the Leaf! Many of the first gen Leafs haven't had great battery longevity.
Yes @@EngineeringExplainedI believe the temperate cool climate of Atlantic Canada mixed with level I charging, and temperature controlled parking at home makes a big difference compared to say parking on hot sun scorched pavement in Nevada during the summer while high speed charging.
I hope someone builds a similar car with an air cooled "Sodium Battery" pack for everyone above the 45th parallel.
@@EngineeringExplainedI have a 2013 leaf but used very cheaply, and I don't know exactly how the previous owner treated it, but not too badly as when I bought it in late 2022 it had 11/12 battery health bars.
I somewhat doubt this as it only really gets 50ish miles at highway speeds but it's worked for me.
Personally I think NMC is too much if a tradeoff in terms of longevity for me, and I'm happy that the cheaper EVs tend to have LFP batteries that are less dense but are absolute tanks for longevity.
Plus charging at home at 3kw is plenty fast for me :) great video btw!
@@fabulousoffroaddesigns5080 The Leaf battery packs have been reverse-engineered. After market replacements should be possible.
@@smvsspould 6 years ago I bought a 2013 leaf with only the J1772 port so I know it was only Level 1 or 2 charged by the previous owner and there aren't any Chademo chargers nearby. It had 11/12 bars at the time, 50k miles later it still has 9/12 bars. Your doubts are well placed as the health bars aren't all equal. The first bar doesn't disappear until the battery has degraded about 15%, each of the other bars disappear after about half as much degradation, or about 7.5%. So your 11/12 bar leaf could have as little as 78% of the original capacity remaining which matches your observation of the highway range. 78% of 75 (the original mixed mileage range) = 58.5 miles. The range drops pretty fast at highway speeds too. I put a basic grill block on and went from 3.1 to 3.5 miles/kwh (all that air is just for cooling the AC condenser and I don't use the AC much) and smoothed the wheels and went from 3.5 to 4.1 miles/kwh and my regular commute is only about 60% highway.
I'm glad to hear that charging to 100% isn't so bad at low temperatures since I get about the same range from 100% in the winter as I get from 80% in the summer. I switch it about the time I switch my all season tires for winter tires.
And I agree, 3kw is generally fast enough with a little planning.
This should be a required syllabus for anyone who has an EV or buying an EV. Great video!
Including the dealerships. I ordered a BMW i4 and I could check my car this Monday. They charged the car to 100% and there are 35 Celsius max here for the whole week. I was a bit angry. Fortunately I get it on Friday, so the car will stay with 100% only for 5 days.
Excellent video Jason!
My relation to this topic comes from 5 plus years of ownership of my 2018 Zero SR motorcycle which has a 14.4 KWh pack.
I have a little less than 18,000 miles on the bike and have not had any issues nor noticed any battery degredation.
This makes sense since I've followed basically the rules you have on this video.
I store the bike at about 50% SOC during the winter months, I keep the SOC when riding between 40% and 80% normally, charge right away and only charge to 100% before taking longer rides. I think I just aquired this knowledge over time from different sources but this video was vindication for sure.
So most of the time your range is 40% ? I do non of those things in my Aprillia and it’s just fine🤣
Nope. It's whatever I need it to be for the ride. @@chartedtravel1776
@@chartedtravel1776they’ve also barely driven it lol
Thanks. I love my Zero. @@oddjobsandrandomprojects
@@chartedtravel1776 No thats not his range, most of the time his range is 80%.
I just bought an ev and was looking for a video like this for a while. Thank you so much for all the quality content engineering explained.
happy to hear it!
Sucker
Fantastic. This is the first youtube presentation of Li-ion batteries that not only gets it right but also have real in depth explanation.
It is probably not that obvious for the viewer why the cracking is the a problem as you explained SEI formation early and didn't mention the cracking when the intercalation materials expand exposing the electrodes so they form new SEI and lose capacity.
A part 2 about charging speeds and temperature maybe even coupled with risk if lithium plating might also be interesting.
BTW I used these guiding 'rules' above for the first EV I had.
When I sold the Nissan Leaf 24 kWh (notorious for degradation), I still had SoH at 93% and 'all bars'.
(I know this is not precise but a guidance).
Excellent video, Jason. I appreciate that you don't take a side, but rather evaluate things from an engineer's perspective, looking at the advantages, disadvantages, and requirements of the topic at hand.
As a fellow mechanical engineer, I can tell you we _always_ take a side. We side with what _really_ works best, by the numbers!
Just kidding; we’re biased like everyone else.
@@altosack Sure. The bias is going to be towards what is the best way to meet requirements with the technologies and techniques available.
E/E does a good job of talking about both the advantages and disadvantages in his videos. Out of Spec Reviews also operates in a similar vein, but his videos are always really long.
The only people insinuating that there are sides are the ones still breathing exhaust fumes and not looking at the numbers. We're all on the same side: Humanity's and/or the Earth's side. Some of us are just further along and more capable of understanding what is good for it (EV and battery technology, etc.), and others are getting left behind in their old thinking and believing that we're divided into two sides... Either way the end goal is the same, and we all want the same thing. Obviously we all understand there are still developments happening but the real hinderance are those completely opposed and uneducated, or those grouping us all into two sides-whether they think they're part of one side or not...
did you invest in cobalt mine in Africa or simply a Biden office worker?
@@natjam0205 Tribalism has always been part of humanity unfortunately. Typically by the more uneducated ones as you've mentioned.
Thanks!
I don't have an EV, but I somewhat assumed they had "smart" controller that could automatically devise a good charging plan (with override if the user wants to make sure the battery is fully charged sometimes). While it's nice to make people aware about how to handle their batteries, it would probably be way more effective to have this built-in.
Many vehicles have this, but people are idiots who refuse to listen to advice.
The smartest thing about most EV's is that they prevent you from charging to true 100% in the first place. There is usually a buffer that is not used. In my old Leaf, for example, the battery was 62kwh but the car actually only lets you use 55kwh (about 89%).
@Thirty-Ninety Yeah except the leaf thermal management was non-existent and they all have cooked batteries. Stay away from a battery with no thermal management in my opinion.
Leafs use pouch batteries which are impossible to manage heat-wise. The cores can get really hot.
The display has nothing to do what is actually 100% or 5% ...
Do you actually think theyd risk having to swap your battery in warranty 2 months befory it ends?
Nah, they will do a "battery check", software update, suddenly you got 5% more range again than minimally allowed and you reach the end of warranty just fine.
I charge 80-85% in the winter due to colder temps and use 30-40% of that daily (I drive 80-120 miles) and in the spring / summer / fall I charge to 65-70% and effectively get the same range but using 20-30% of my SOC, better efficiency.
My mid-range new had 64kwh Gross, 62.6kwh usable.. Today after 100k miles its got 58.6kwh usable / 61kwh gross. So 3kwh loss in 100k miles, and fun fact it lost 2kwh in the first 25,000 miles than it did losing the remaining 1kwh in 75000 miles. So realistically this car will get well over 250-300,000 miles before I hit the 85-90% degradation point. Overall its on point.
What app do you use to get those capacity numbers?
My M3P has the same color wrap as yours😂😂😂
Which ev brand and which battery?
@@pissmyasslynch5325 I like it - I got my color sprayed in Autoflex + Clear coat (its peelable paint but ultra durable with real clear coat) I got 70,000 miles on it and it still looks great and is 13-15mil thick. Mantis Verde (lambo) + gold pearl - gold gives it a yellow vibe in sun.
@@larryc1616 NMC811 - 2018 Tesla Model 3 Mid-Range
My 4.5 year old M3P has only around 5% degradation- it’s literally NEVER been to 100%, even on long trips. (I find 95% works better for long trips, and still gives me regen.)
Typically day to day, I use 40 to 70%, and ESPECIALLY in Summer I try to use 70% or less as absolute max except on a trip.
Hey Jason, I have an idea for helping us nerds and engineering geeks get the most out of your whiteboard discussions: zoom in on the portion of the whiteboard that you are discussing. A close shot will help us see the details, see your hard work, a little bit better. Would you consider that?
PS the two Jason‘s videos you and Cammisa do are a hoot!
Yeah, sometimes I do it, will keep this in mind!
When I want to zoom in on the whiteboard I just use my two fingers on my iPad and it works great to get a better view of the whiteboard. It also helps me to slow the video down to .75 so I can absorb the information easier.
if you are watching videos on your phone get some 2.5X reading glasses
your phone screen will look at big as a tablet or small laptop
Love your video🤩 I charge my Tesla MS75D to 80% and charge every day, just 50-60 to 80 around the town. When going on long roadtrips, up to 95 or 100% just before driving , and run the battery down to 10% usually. Greetings from Oslo Norway😊
Same ❤🎉
huh...I "charge" my F-150 to 100% every 3 or 4 months, drive 700 miles to near empty, and then "charge" it again in 5 minutes.
This is the way...🎉
@@southerninterloper4107 You only drive 700 miles in 3 months?
@@Freakishd Yup. With the occasional road trip thrown in but that's the norm.
Thanks!
One thing to note is that manufacturers already eat some the true state of charge in their consumer stated range vs their actual charge range to protect the battery.
Depends. They can set 100% at whatever actual charge they want, but most manufacturers don’t really nerf their batteries much. Gotta have that Big Range Number.
They only reduce to such an extent that they won’t end up with many warranty claims
@@FuncleChuck Every manufacturer reduces battery usable capacity. It depends on the philosophy of the OEM to what extent. Trade-off between range and warranty.
Thanks for the video. I recently tried to read up on these battery degrading effects but is seems like every google search is either very shallow or leads to full depth research papers focusing on very specific cases. Hard to get a decent overview so it's great you took the time to gather it up!
Happy to hear it, I felt similarly!
@@EngineeringExplained Yeah I wish there was more of a middle ground for the "science enthusiast lay person."
Everything is either incredibly, incredibly simplified pop science stuff or highly, highly technical scientific journal articles in Nature Chemical engineering.
This is a very good summary of Jeff's video. However, there is one point that you mentioned in the video that Jeff did not state. He's a very nice man and I had a chance to correspond with him. You had said that you "Plug in all the time". I don't think this is required to get the longer life - and in some cases may hurt you. The perfect battery charge depends on chemistry, but is around 50% to 55%. That is the optimum SOC for your battery, except in really hot weather. Charging to 70% and then plugging in when you come home AND you are under 40% is very good, but don't if you are above. If you don't drive that much (leave at 70% and come home at 60%) then plugging in all the time and keeping your battery constantly above its "happy zone" is not optimum.
This is excellent information. I’m around a 110 outlet 24 hours a day and always have my car plugged in. It lives in the mid 60’s soc. Max charge to 70% daily and generally use 10% for my commute. I always wondered if it’s better to discharge more, now I know. Thanks!
Hope you can help with my marriage! my wife insists on following the instructions for charging, but your video makes more sense and by charging to 100% cannot be good, especially in the hot summer. I have always charged my 2019 Tesla M3LR to 80%, but our new MY RWD recommends to charge to 100%. I know different battery chemistry LFP, but confused where regen energy will go when batt is full and why tesla recommends this strategy. Can you help with this? I just did a $10 donation not knowing to type here first, so please find $2 more. love the channel!
Had the pleasure of taking first year physics with Dr. Dahn. Glad to see him getting broader recognition for his passion in battery chemistry.
I just got a Chevy Bolt, so this is perfectly timed. Thank you!
Time to sell that garbage.
You're welcome
8:35 Don't charge to 100% unless necessary. Lower the better. High voltage bad.
1:05 Don't store your battery at 100%, especially in hot environments for long periods of time. Heat bad.
4:35 Don't wait to recharge unless necessary. Frequent small charges in better. Deep cycle bad.
Thanks for a great video. It explains why I see a 17% degradation in my 6 year old plug in hybrid (VW Golf GTE). Almost all discharges are 100% to 0% and that can be several times a day.
I charge my Tesla Model 3 Long Range to 55% nightly at home. I usually only use 10 to 15 percentage points of battery daily. So, I am typically in a short usage/charging cycle range of 40% to 55% daily. I do charge to a higher percentage for heavy use or trip days. Thanks for the video!
Finally, a voice of reason. As for LiXXX chemistry (high density + high discharge rate), my years of experience say (basically from beginning of this chemistry):
1. Don't discharge to 0% and don't charge to 100%.
2. Use battery capacity between 20-80% (20-60% is preffered).
3. When in storage (max live, not used), charge/discharge to 50%, and keep it cool if available (5-10C).
I live by the 20-80% rule. Even on road trips I only had to fully charge once to reach the top of the mountain & return trip. Otherwise my EV Truck has only seen 80% charge limit it's entire life. Lowest was I believe 16%. Not hard to do when I charge daily, and just be aware when on a road trip. It will get easier once I can use the Superchargers this month.
@@Cjdergrosse so your range on average is about 235 miles? - maybe 250
I def need an LFP Battery video like this!!
(For my Tesla Model 3 RWD)
Yes please
That's what I have
No worries with LFP. You just need to fully charge to 100% at least 1x/month for optimal battery health lasting 500k-1M miles to 60-80% capacity
@@larryc1616 Tesla recommends at least 1x per week though.
For my charging habits: It's like the opposite, 1 or 2 days of not charging at all (per week). Most of the time I charge it to 100% (at home), because that's what I heard from Tesla or other people.
@@larryc1616the greater point of discussion with LFP is what to do in the interim between 100% charges. ie: is there an optimal state of charge or simply charge to 100% each day
@@peejayem4700to 100% anytime is best for LFP
Thanks! This is the best explainer on battery hygiene that I've ever seen.
Great info. It took me a lot of time and research to get to the same conclusions. Great job of packing it all into a short vid.
Being retired and not much driving I keep my model y at 60%. Only charge higher when I know I going to need it. Also charge on 30 amp circuit which gen 2 mobile charger recognizes by which plug option you snap into it. There are 8 different plug options and four different current options. 15, 20, 30 and 50. By using the 30, it uses the 80% rule and charges at 24 amps. Nice and low. Super chargers are the least preferable way to charge if it can be avoided.
Thanks for putting this together, Jason. I've owned a Model 3 Performance for about 1.5 years now and have seen little to no degradation of the battery. I rarely charge to 100% (only on trips). My ideal capacity range has been 20%-80%. After watching this video, I will charge more frequently if below 80% and keep the cap there.
Just got a M3 long range. Any other user anecdotes you can impart?
The batteries in our cell phones and power tools are lithium ion as well I believe so these tips can apply to those as well. Interesting stuff. Thanks
That's also why Samsung and a few other device manufacturers are giving you the battery health option. Instead of 100%, it'll stop at 80% max. This keeps it from losing capacity over time.
5:44 the crack looks like the Tesla logo lol
WOW - this was excellent! Really appreciate your summarization from other sources while still sharing important details about the "why" of this stuff!
I have had a Bolt for 1.5 years now, I normally charge to 80% (may switch to 75% just to align with the mark on the display) with maybe 4 times a year top off overnight to 100% for a trip, and day-to-day temperature changes so far is more significant and masks any degradation. On a ideal temp day last year, 80% SoC was 242 miles and it is still that way today.
This is great and it also applies to essentially everything that uses Li-ion batteries, like phones and appliances. Good things to put in practice if you want to extract as much life off your batteries as you can.
My wife has a new iPhone and the battery can last 2+ days. I have been trying to get her to let it drain to 30% and charge to 80% like I do with the assumption that fewer charges is better. From this video, it sounds like she is right charging her phone daily (except that she charges to 100%). Am I wrong again?
@@garyganser2451 The latest iphone io update will automatically stop charging at 80% unless you're away from home or force it to go to 100%.
@@garyganser2451The optimum is regular charging to say 80%.
I get HUGE long life out of my iPhone batteries by doing that.
(We have devices called “Chargie” to do that automatically).
I’d like a video going further in depth on the effects of a cold climate on vehicle batteries. I love watching any of your videos on my free time. Keep inspiring people like me to pursue an engineering degree!
Thanks for the kind words, appreciate ya watching!
The channel Out of Spec Reviews has done several videos with real world tests of how cold affects EVs.
The very high level info for operating an EV in the cold is that it's best to have it plugged in when not in use. To precondition the battery before walking out the door or doing DC Fast Charging, and that in the worst case scenario you can lose up to half of your range when it is extremely cold.
That said, plenty of people in places like Canada and Norway are driving EVs and don't seem to have a problem with it.
Cold is bad for battery performance but cold is good for battery longevity.
Even after all this information I still hear people spreading nonsense of battery degradation because their cousin Pete, who knows a guy, who has and uncle, who has a neighbor, that seen on TH-cam that an Uber/lyft driver who drives a Tesla. His battery pack failed because he used it too much.
To start, I really liked this video; it’s well made and informative.
Something made me crack up though:
« If you don’t know what chemistry your electric car battery uses, and why would you »…
Then goes on to explain the chemistry at length…
Seriously, the only thing I take with a grain of salt is number 3: not charging at 100% regularly.
First, my automaker says there is a buffer to make sure 100% is never quite 100%.
Then, I heard multiple times that some studies shows some EV were only down less than 10% of their original capacity after somewhere around 200k miles.
So, I wonder why I should limit myself to 75% (or 80% like a lot of people say) for 200K miles, only to make sure I lose less than 10% capacity… which I will never use anyway, because I always limit myself!
I like that, even though you explain it all and say it all make sense on paper, you still agree that we shouldn’t stress about it, because the battery will probably outlive the car.
I charge my Leaf when it reaches 40% at up to 75%, that give me about 50-mile range which is more than enough for my daily use. Excellent video, I watched the LFP first which is awesome too, nice work, subscribed.
Is there any way to determine how and EV was used/charged if you’re shopping on the used market? I know vehicles can show degradation amount but would that tell the whole story about how it’ll perform for a 2nd or 3rd owner?
There are a couple of third party apps that can track this, and Tesla vehicles have the ability to do a self-diagnosis that can show if there's been battery degradation, but I believe you can only access that info via the service menu. (You can find videos on how to do this on YT.)
@@Green_Tea_Coffee gotcha, yeah so probably prudent to have one of those OBDII diagnostic tools/apps when shopping around. I presume then it’ll just show the level of degradation but not any detail like how often it was lest sitting at 100% or how many DCFC cycles it has experienced? Just want to keep in the know when it does eventually come time to get a new vehicle like an EV how to find the best one.
@@ALMX5DP- some cars do count fast charge kwh and cycles.
if you abuse a gas/diesel engine and transmission with constant hard acceleration or towing huge heavy loads day in and day out and neglect changing the oils and fluids regularly being totally mad when they both give out at 80k miles instead of 300k miles. its just basic care of a different variety.
You still get more life out of ICE dollar for dollar.
@@Foche_T._Schitt A cheap ICE. A very cheap one.
We're now starting to see reports of well cared for EVs leaving their previous owners hands after 10 years with more than 90% of their battery life remaining. That exceeds the longevity of ICEs by a substantial margin, which by ten years have usually developed numerous, troubling mechanical faults.
EVs just have less moving parts. There's less to wear down, it's more chemistry, and the fewer moving parts, the more materials science improvements effect longevity. ICE engines are also struggling to match both the efficiency and usability of electric motors, and the tech industry is being pushed continually by regulators towards right to repair.
The main long term cost of EVs for owners at the moment is the cost of repair. Once that's regulated and third party after market replacements become commonplace, the cost of EVs will drop like a stone.
Amazing video! I have been thinking about this topic for a while now. Please make a video about the new LFP batteries that are being used in the New Teslas. Thank you for all of the work that you put in this video. I really appreciate how you broke down complex topics and made them easily understandable Once again, thank you.
Happy to hear it, thanks for watching!
“in the New Teslas”->in some new Teslas
I have a townhouse with a parking space and am unable to charge at home, but my gym has level 2 chargers. I charge there regularly without a hitch. Also my HOA is working with local Govt to install charging stations at central areas in our development. Someday I believe every space will have the ability to charge AKA I'll be able to charge at home. But for now I have found an easy work around. There will hopefully be opportunities like this for more people soon.
So glad you got to highlight the Doc's video!
As always.. LOVE your breakdowns and simple understanding of some real complex automotive concepts! Appreciate it as always!
Thanks!
A video about LFP would be great considering they will become the most prevalent battery chemistry soon.
Yeah his presentation is on the old lithium ion batteries not the lithium phosphate LFP which is much better and last 4x longer.
@@larryc1616 Yeah, you have to be pretty far down the coolaid bottle to have figured this out. Most don't have a clue about battery tech advances. Batteries will (store the) planet's power before we know it. too much FUD out there.
@@larryc1616 Better? Less energy density and slower charge and discharge rates. It's better in longevity and safety, but poor performance. No thanks.
@@OtisFlintthey are getting better all the time. The LFP Teslas atm are far better performing than the entry level NCA/NMC Teslas that proceeded them
Also I’d say they are the prevailing tech as over half of Teslas use them and Im sure for BYD it’s the same
I was hoping you would get into low charge issues. I regularly do a long drive where I use 70% of my battery. Is it better to overcharge a bit to avoid a very low battery by the time I get home, or vise versa?
Low battery percentage is fine, but it's kinda a comfort thing. It feels more relaxing knowing you'll arrive home at 15%, rather than say 2%, in case an issue pops up and you get stuck/etc.
@@EngineeringExplained Typically, you'll leave around 50 to 100km of reserve. That's when many normal cars indicate that the fuel tank is completely empty (it isn't).
When a battery gets empty, the internal resistance increases and thus the temperature can rise quickly if a lot of power is drawn. A known issue, for example in RC models. It should be avoided.
Charging to 100%, like for overnight, is better than discharging below 10%, so charge it up and park it with as much capacity left as possible.
Very helpful video! My wife just got a model 3 and the Tesla app recommends charging to 100% "once per week to maintain battery health". Why is this recommended when it goes against the physics of the battery chemistry?
Normally the Battery Management System (BMS) counts electrons leaving the battery and also whats going back in during regen braking and partial charging. Over several cycles this method of accounting for State of Charge can drift off, but its reset back to 100% when fully charged.
For LiFePO4 chemistry the midrange SOC voltage curve is so flat that the BMS can’t balance the cells correctly. So fully charging it ensures they are all topped off, and as long as all their capacities are still matched, they will stay in balance all the way to 0%.
If its NMC Li-ion chemistry, it shouldn’t need to be charged to 100% every week because that SOC curve isn’t so flat. The LiFePO4 pack however might try to balance the pack at 50% all week and actually cause an imbalance, and then if you drive it that one low cell group can trigger turtle mode while waiting for the BMS to move all that energy back (assuming it has active balancing).
Unfortunately these high tech cars won’t even allow you to see the information my $1000 ebike tells me. I can open a Bluetooth app, and it shows me the voltage of all my cells, and the battery temperature, and if i want I can click “start autobalance “ and it will balance until all cells are the same voltage.
There are apps for tesla that let you see that, which should be available in the main screen. Then you can watch that and when cell voltage drift too far off after several partial charges you can fully charge it so it will enter balance mode (since tesla will not allow you to charge the settings, just view the data)
@@imho7250 Very helpful reply!! Thank you for taking the time to explain it all. I believe our car is a LiFePO4 because it's a 2023 RWD.
I will check out a monitoring app to learn more about our specific car to see what it's thinking. Thanks again!
@@HandsomeAlex25 , yes, I saw online “For LFP Battery: You can determine whether your vehicle is equipped with an LFP Battery by navigating to Controls > Software > Additional Vehicle Information.”
I don’t know the settings Tesla uses for balancing each type of chemistry. In my BMS I can choose Li-ion or LiFePo4 which sets default presets, but I can modify them to suit my preferences.
Tesla can’t really allow owners to change settings beyond what they allow because it could interfere with charging, especially DC fast charging. But if you have the app that can read the cell voltages you can probably see which charge limit gets them high enough to show any imbalances, and then as that grows to about 0.02v, if the pack cannot balance there, and can only balance at 100%, then you would know its time to do a balancing charge at home with the on-board charger.
I don’t know how easy they make it now to connect. It should be in the Tesla software but some manufacturers will not make it easy for everyone to see because then if they see something insignificant they will call Telsa and ask why all the cells aren’t perfectly balanced all the time.
... so far so good; theory and correct.
Cars have a battery management system (BMS) - in practice:
IONIQ5 about 50,000 km for 3 years - degradation less than 3% in the first year. We rarely charge to 100%, but we do before a trip. And if the car sits for 6 hours, then something like that is not relevant in practice. ... but THX for your video.
I would like to see a full video on the fast charging topic you mention at the end. I've noticed that if I slow charge from a low percentage up to 100% then I get about 10% more range compared to charging at a fast charger.
I am not educated about this at all, but If I were to guess, I think it might be parasitic loss from heat. Faster charging speeds = higher voltage = more energy = more heat
My uneducated assumption is that some energy is being turned into heat energy rather than transferring to the battery 100% of the way. Again, this is my uneducated guess, I'm not at all an expert about this and only have a faint understanding of the concept.
Easy answer: Tesla superchargers recommend right on your computer screen - limit 80%. Two reasons.
1.) 100% (80-100% take almost as long as 40-80%, so unless you need the extra 20% to get to your next charge station - don’t waste the time.
2.) at 100% and especially in warm temps outside - you don’t want to sit idle ( batteries will loose your future range capacity through heat/hot chemical reactions that can easily be avoided at 80% max charge. ( think of it as a topped up to full gas tank sitting idle on a hot day - it may spill over loosing range) EV’s would be loosing range by vapour spillover ( my thoughts), but unlike gas lost in the moment, it’s like range lost forever 🧐
I recently replaced the sealed lead acid battery in a booster pack. The specifications had detailed data on charge cycles, etc. and many of the same observations as in your video (avoid high temperatures, deep discharge cycles, so on).
The one difference with lead acid is they should be kept at 100% SoC as much as possible.
When a lead acid battery is discharged, the sulfur in the sulfuric acid sticks to the lead plates. This is reversed by charging the battery, but the longer you wait to charge the battery the harder this layer of sulfur gets. When the layer gets harder it won’t convert back to acid as easily. Also, the acid gets weaker as the battery discharges. This means the electrolyte freezes easier, and a frozen battery will end up with bent and shorted lead plates.
Although I don't have an electric car, I'm sure a lot of this can also apply to e-bikes as well.
Pretty much any LiPo, yup. Unless it uses LiFePo, then idk
There's a lot of low-range cars with 28-36 Kw batteries, doing 20-70% is a no-go for many of us, even if we charge at home, because during winter it will take quite a bit of the energy from-and-to work. I do top it up at work to 100% as I have a 35Kw battery on mine, after a year I've seen absolutely zero degradation, it still tops at 100 percent every day.
Most BEVs are low range. Very few can reach the range that we are used to from regular vehicles or that we typically travel on a daytrip.
On bmw i3 cell balancing only starts when it is charged to 100%. It is stated in the manual that it is suggested to plug in as often as it is possible and stay connected over night. The BMS will do everything instead of you. There are many i3s with more than 400k kms with over 80% of their design capacity, even cars that had only 100-130 km range on new, so they are over 4000 full charges
You answered one of my questions. We just bought a Chevy Bolt EUV. I've been recently plugging it into 110V in my garage and doing a trickle charge overnight for multiple nights. I wasn't sure if this was bad for my battery. Sounds like it is better than doing a full charge using a level 2 charger. I should also mention that I've only charged on level 2 and level 1 (in my garage at 110V). Have not charged using a Level 3
From a perspective of battery health, level 1 vs. level makes no significant difference. But, from the perspective of minimizing one's electricity bill, level 2 is more energy efficient, plus the faster speeds of level 2 make it easier to schedule all of the charging to happen during cheap off-peak electricity rates.
Really, the only reason to charge off of level 1 is to avoid the up-front financial expense of installing the level 2. But, once the level 2 is installed, there is no reason not to just use it all the time.
Thanks Jason! I generally followed these rules over the past decade, but having explanations behind it helps to further educate more people.
I've had 6 EVs and I did an unintentional experiment on one of them, a 2013 Fiat 500e.
For 20k miles, I charged to 100%, and drove it to 10-15% twice a day. At the start of those 20k miles, I had 22 kWhs of usable capacity. By the end, I had 18 kWhs.
The next 20k miles, I had moved closer to work, and began only charging to 80%, and drove it down to 30%, once a day. In that 20k miles, I only lost 1 kWh of usable battery capacity.
So I slowed my degradation from ~20%, down to ~5%, every 20k miles.
Battery degradation is supposed to reduce over time so that might explain some of it.
@rogerphelps9939 true. I didn't want to many stats, but my first 20k miles were between 30,000-50,000 from 2019-2020, and the second 20k was from 50,000-70,000 odo miles, from 2020-2023.
It had already degraded from 24 kW-22kWh usable, in the first 30,000 miles and 6 years, when I purchased it used.
We recently upgraded to an EV6 and absolutely adore it. We're also keeping it between 40 and 80% SoC with the rare charge to 100% SoC.
We previously had a 2017 Kia Soul EV with a 27kWh battery. With the car's lack of battery thermal management and no apparent way to set a max SoC target, the battery degraded rather quickly. Max range new was around 90 miles. Our range despite getting 3.5-4mi/kW was only about 50mi max lol. It was definitely a "My First EV". We thanked it for its service and upgraded to an adult EV(the aforementioned EV6) and we absolutely love it. Our EV6 is set to 80% SoC max which translates to about 300miles of range in the winter. 0% complaints there.
One darn good car!
300 miles in the winter?! Just got an EV6 and I'm hardly getting 320km at 80% here in Canada... Is it the RWD version that you are speaking of?
Rwd long range can get over 315miles here in GA
Hi could you do one for LFP batteries aswell, i am from India here the largest ev maker by he name: TATA makes ev cars with lfp battery composition and many manufacturers seem to be switching to lfp batteries here.Our climate is hot and roads are under developed. I want o know what makes lfp batteries better than nmc bateries for our climate.
Non-extended range Teslas are also LiFePO4 batteries
LFP are very baf in cold temperatures. Specifically you cannot charge them under 0 dec C. The main advantage is cost, so of course it will be the main choice if the temperatures don't go too low
LFP is a great chemistry. Only major downsides are that they are heavier and take up more space per kwh than NMC/NCA. Bad for very long range EVs or lightweight EVs, but great for general EVs.
@@anthonypelchat do the have more charge cycles vs nmc?
@@danielvipin7163 Typically, yes. Some of the cheapest LFP would be in line or possibly below the highest end NMC. But that's just extremes. If you get decent LFP cells, they are normally going to last longer than NMC for the same kwh.
That said, when it comes to cars, you aren't tracking age in cycles. Rather you are tracking in miles or km. And NMC packs are normally larger capacity, allowing for more miles/km per charge cycle. So they may even out in that case.
Yes! I've been trying to get my wife to understand that charging to 100% all the time isn't good. I limit the charge to 80% and try to make her understand to not use up the whole charge. This video will help prevent further arguments😅 thanks!
Folks,
I already shared my thoughts about this topic, as an Electrical Engineer (with Major in Battery) for 20+ years.
The best charging % frame is BETWEEN 30% - 70% (because 40% - 60F is really NOT possible for 90+% of people who drive an EV)
(IF you will have a Long Road Trip, charge it to 100%, then use it until 10% before you will go back to your normal 30% - 70% charging habit)
Again, just STAY WITHIN 30% - 70% and you will be fine for years to come.
Have a great day to y'all!
In our Tesla app it said set charging to 100% to maximize battery life.
@@joester4life LFP battery. That's different.
That’s 40% of usable battery. Not very practical if you don’t have home charging. Not arguing with the chemistry, that is definitely the best way to preserve the battery, it’s just not feasible for many. My view is use 5 - 80%.
GM did a study years ago for the Chevy Volt (and repeated with similar results many times). ~80% of daily drives are under 40 miles. So 80% of drivers can do 40-60% in most modern EVs if they charge overnight. 30-70% would probably cover 90%+ of daily drives.
fyi, most of these also count for your phone battery life!
What doesn't?
Yes is the same for phones
The issue with adapting this to phone batteries is an EV battery could potentially last 3-4 days before needing to be recharged (which means you can use that 20% range to get best longevity)
When was the last time your phone was able to last a whole day (of actual usage) on 20%, or even 40% charge?
Charge your phone to 40% and see how long it lasts without you changing your usage habits
Only way I can get a day out of 50% was buying a phone with a 22,000mah battery (Doogee V max)
So the interesting part for me in fast charging, that a study showed a graph of 2 car's battery degradation. One was charged 90% on the Supercharger network, the other one was charged 90% at home. The graph didn't show major difference in between the two. So that means I should be safe with fast charging on a daily basis? Well not really.
There was an other guy couple months ago, who used his model 3 for riding Uber, and he supercharged his car twice a day (yes edge case, but it happended, and it would happen with other drivers who have to make long trips often for some reason.). His battery died after a year, driving "only" 120k miles, due balancing issues. Warranty is limited to 100k... Bummer (or well calculated?)
The degradation itself just one factor among the all of the failures these batteries can "produce".
That uber driving scenario sounds like one that could be avoided by periodically slow charging to 100%. Balancing all the cells every few dozen cycles never hurts.
Yeah I believe it was a standard range and he charged it always past 90. So no wonder his battery didn’t last. I did ubering with my 2018 model 3 long range for like 4 months full time and supercharged twice a day but never went past 70/75 percent. Lost about one mile after I stopped ubering. Staying below 80 percent for daily use really does help and why it’s recommended by the manufacturer. The car even tells you lol. Only do past 80 when I’m going on vacation.
My first EV ist now 10 years old, Smart ED, small 19kWh battery, high C and SoC use, was usually parked with 95% SoC. After 10 years 82% still left, thats good for such an ancient battery. Now LFPs took over, lets see how they will last, they got so good (3C charge rate) that they replaced the need for the more expensive and larger NCMs
Yeah 400,000 miles is 50% degradation of 800,000 miles but the car will rust to shreds before you hit 400,000. The battery replacement scare was already a tempest in a teacup in 2012. Today that issue is about as real as the immaculate conception.
Battery replacement worries != Degradation worries.
We have zero statistics on how often tesla, for instance, has to fully replace a battery.
@@wizzyno1566there are zero statistics because it's not that big an issue.
Aluminum cars do not rust but I get your point. After over 200,000 miles I just replaced a battery on one of my Teslas… And I did literally everything wrong, so as you point out this really is not that big of an issue.
Dude, you're awesome! Going into so much depth with this, into chemistry, manufacturing, citing experimental results etc. is just awesome. Thank you!
I own a Model 3 for three years now and I can't charge at home. I drive 650 km a month, short distance commuting. I exclusively use Superchargers once a week. Everything is fine with the car, still 460+ km of range at 100%.
Why did you buy a tesla if you can't charge from home? In my area the cost per mile is literally twice of the cost of a prius if you charge at a supercharger.
@@jimfarmer7811STFU. There is no Tesla supercharger in the lower 48 that is literally twice the price of a Prius. None.
@@TonyShepps according to Google supercharger can charge up to $ .50/kwh. At 4 miles per kwh a tesla model 3 would cost $ .125 per mile. With the current gas price of $2.80 at 55 mpg a prius would cost $.051 per mile. This may be an extreme example but clearly in all cases it will cost more for fuel to drive a tesla than a prius. Also don't forget the tesla tires last half as long and cost twice as much to replace.
@@jimfarmer7811 Please point me to the actual Tesla supercharger in the lower 48 that costs $.50/kWh. I've never encountered one in 3.5 years of ownership and supercharging in 12 states. My average charge in 2023 was $.32. Lowest $.24, highest $.36. Of course most of my charging is at home, where it's half that price.
And I will happily put any additional price of my tires against just the *routine* maintenance of oil, oil filters, coolant, water filters, belts, lubrication and adjustment, and worst of all, having to go to the gd dealership every six months.
But the best thing about having an M3LR versus a Prius is: HOLY CRAP I GET TO DRIVE AN M3LR AND NOT A PRIUS!!!
@@TonyShepps Seriously you are comparing the $120/yr I pay for scheduled maintenance to your tesla. I would be embarrassed to admit that I bought a car that depreciated $25,000 to $30,000 in 3 years. You must not have retirement plans.
The Chevy Volt (pioneering plug-in hybrid) engineers set up the battery to only charge 30-80% SOC. In a way the battery was twice as big as it needed to be, but they felt it was with it to deliver reliability. The Leaf (EV only) of the same era had major battery degradation issues.
Came here to say this. I own a volt, I just wish there was like a long trip mode where you could unlock the reserve battery capacity
@@zacrossen1968 I think of PHEVs as electric on a typical day and conventional hybrids on road trips. People will criticize it as "carrying an engine you're not using most of the time and carrying an electric battery you're not using on road trips," but my physics and engineering educated opinion is that weight matters 65% less to vehicles with regenerative braking. So the only fundamental problem along those lines is the space they take up.
Hey Jason, this is a great video and I have watched Dr J Dahn's video on this too. My 2015 model S battery is only charged to 70% for driving longer distances over 100km and I do charge the car for the trip back to 70%, I use about 30% for most trips. On days were the temperature is above 28 deg C, the charge is around 30-50%. The cars battery easily will do 400km on a full charge after 9 years of use.
Most of these battery saving practices should be known to people already even if you don't know the "why?" part . Because all these are discussed for smartphones using lithium batteries almost 10 years ago.
People didn't care till now, because they replace phone after 18 months on average, so nobody can even notice degradation in that time.
The problem is, a lot of the tribal knowledge about batteries predates Li-Ion batteries -- advice such as "the first charge should be to 100%" don't apply to modern batteries, yet it persists. Similarly, a lot of things that DO apply to modern batteries haven't achieved the same level of cultural penetration.
Case in point, I'm pretty well connected as far as EV insider knowledge is concerned, and even I thought using a supercharger to even get to 70% was awful for the battery. According to this video, though, it's really not a big deal.
The high speed charging option is provided only to batteries that are designed to for fast charging. Again the only reason why you shouldn't be using a fast charger is because of the heat produced during fast charging. If you can maintain a low temperature during fast charging, its pretty much same as slow charging.
@@MariuszChryep exactly the reason. Back when smartphones were introduced people really cared about getting the maximum life out of battery. But these days smartphones are comparatively cheap so no fuzz over it. That day for cars is also not that far.
so its like saying I bought a 1TB drive but I can only store upto 750GB, any higher the data will not be guaranteed stored.
Yes, it's kind of like that. Fortunately, most people don't need to store over 750GB. And most people drive only about 40 miles a day.
It’s the same with hard disks too
Idk if you’ve ever had one but a 1024GB (1TB) hard disk only has about 800-900GB real space and that’s after factoring for the error between gigabyte and gibibyte
Aha, you are that "most people" kind of guy, that think your job commute of 5km, from a house with 3 electric charger installed to a job that also have electric chargers are "most peoples" situation. And we should just neglect all that are not "most people" because it works for you. Let´s throw in that horse and wagon argument too, that is100% irrelevant for the people that can not have an electric car. Oh, and make up a story about a 3000 mile roadtrip where you did not have to wait for charging even once, because you need to go to the toilet for 45 minutes every 2nd hour@@tjshire
@@thoos192, I'm not sure what your point is here. Yes, I referred to the average distance most Americans travel in a day, which is well within the capabilities of most EVs, even in freezing temperatures when EVs will have a range 30% below EPA estimates. Are you implying that my comment is misleading or not factual? If so, please present your data.
But they already do, there are spare blocks to replace bad ones. So a better comparison is that you buy a 1TB hard drive, it's just that the manufacturer needed to create a 1.1TB hard drive. It's all about the semantics then.
Don't the manufacturers put an artificial software cap on the charge so instead of being at 100% you're really at 98% in order to mitigate overcharge?
Sure, Tesla even has more range than 0km left actually beung 12km left. Tesla cars charge to 90% by default and Tesla sells different sizes with the same battery but dofferent software limits.
Generally yes, though the best practices remain (say it's 98%, it's still a higher voltage and thus impacts degradation).
@@Loanshark753I don't think that's the case with Tesla for a few years now. It was only happening with Model S/X before 2020 (the ones with a number suggesting the battery size like 75d,90d, 100d, p85 etc).
Currently model 3/y standard range has different battery than long range/performance
@@ReximPL The SR Model 3 and Model Y use the lithium ion phosphate batteries, iirc.
@@Loanshark753He's talking about a hidden limit the owner can't see, basically a buffer. The car will show the owner that it's at "100%" even when it technically isn't.
This is a very informative and important video. I ussually think that it is better to charge a battery at 20% to 80% rather than small charges in between, now i know i should do small charges for my phone, and if i ever own an ev on the future..
It is hard though to store ev away from heat in my country, as i live at a tropical country, so maybe if i ever own EV in the future, it is better to set to charge only to 70% at max.
Thanks so much for this video Jason. I am about to buy my first EV (a Peugeot E-2008) and was concerned about the battery longevity. These tips will be very useful and your excellent clear explanation of how the batteries degrade made perfect sense. Great work.
I did this with my phone and it's only just starting to get a shorter battery life after 5-6 years. Tried to keep it between 30 and 80% battery when I could.
I fully charge mine every night. I e had it for four years now and the battery still seems the same as when it was new. I'm a fairly heavy user and normally have about 35% remaining by the time I go to bed.
I ALSO have a 6+ year old phone which is charged to 100% EVERY night but has rarely, IF EVER, seen a SOC below 50%. My needs are simple and I simply don't use the phone for watching videos, gaming, etc. The ONLY Social Media platforms I use are email, text messages, and Signal for strictly family relationships. Not interested in Facebook, Instagram, Tik Tok, nor X (Twitter). I control my phone's usage, IT does not control my life! It's so sad to see people's faces buried in their damn phone screen virtually constantly.
@@Japplesnap Set a charge limit and you'll double the life and still make it through the day.
Which phone? My battery health is on 92% after two years only. I did it like you 🤷♂️
@@cachememory Samsung. That's all I buy after switching from Motorola 10 years ago. I like to keep my phone for at least 3 years minimum.
Manufacture should advertise the range based on 80% charged battery and with ac or heat on at a reasonable temperature all the time.
LFP doesn't have this problem with the older lithium ion batteries and last 4x longer
@@larryc1616 LFP also has lower density, though. There are trade-offs, but for most LFP will be the superior option.
Why..
Unless you are in the insignificant portion of the population that needs the full range of the vehicle every charge.
Nothing wrong with charging to 100 percent occasionally for a long road trip.
By the way.
New gas cars require the fuel pump to be immersed in gasoline to keep cooled.
That means you should not drive your gas car down to zero gas in the tank.
Should their range be adjusted also?
@@thomaswilson2917 ok but in-tank fuel pump = $200-$300 and dropping the fuel tank
EV battery: between $10,000 and $30,000 depending on vehicle and manufacturer
@@lsswappedcessna you refurbish a EV battery if it every needs replacing..
Notice the word IF..
Yes it costs more but the discussion was about range reporting..
This is all great in theory, but I have a 150 mile commute round trip and charge my Ioniq 6 daily from ~20% to 80%, occasionally charging to 90-100% at home. Not too helpful for us long commuters.
As long as you stay between the 20 to 80 you should be fine.
I disagree….this implies you need to charge each way rather than at end of the at both.
@markw5805 that is inconvenient AF.
Nice topic and video!
My anecdote: we own a 2015 Fiat 500e that stays plugged in and charged to 100% (no option for less). It shows no discernable degradation (must still be within the built-in buffer). We don't drive it much (47K), mostly getting groceries so shallow discharges, with a bit deeper discharge (45%) every other month or so, and really deep discharges limited to under 5 since we've owned it (6 yrs).
They are so cute!!
Glad for you.
Great video. I'm about to take deliver of a Model 3 LR RWD. Daily commutes will be sub 40 miles, charging at home in hot southern summers. 60% should cover this with range for emergencies if needed.
defining what "hot" is critical
In the study they found heat played a big role even at 35 C, though not nearly as much as 50 C. Hope it's not 50 C where you're at!
Jason is the definition of "hot" 😜😜😜
@@EngineeringExplained I'm at the 35C-46C max (Houston) with just a bit...small bit of water in the air...barely humid at all
I bought a badly degraded model Y 85% battery health. I’m cycling the battery 65% - 35% on the daily and hope I can get an extra 100k miles out of this thing.
Unfortunately Stellantis didn't implement any functionality to limit the SoC, so if I forget to stop the charging manually it will end up at 100%.
It's ok during the winter months, but in the Summer a limit at 75 or 80 % would be a quite useful feature.
Or just buy a gasoline vehicle and be safe!
@@tullo5564 yeah, that would be significantly more expensive and I'd have to waste so much time when driving to gas stations.
Additionally I'd have to blast all my waste-gases in the streets where people are walking and I'm not sure if they'd be happy with that.
@@das_f.l.x Filling up a gas tank is "significantly" easier and way faster. Furthermore, lithium mining produces more environmental hazards than a diesel/petrol powered vehicle would ever produce. So kindly get your facts straight, that would help you "significantly"
@@tullo5564 That's actually not true. There's no need to drive to a specific station just to refill an electric vehicle. You would just park it inside your garage and it will be charged the next time you use it. The average time I've spent for this process would be around 15-20 seconds, because there is no need to supervise your car while charging.
Regarding your claims about raw materials, please feel free to provide a scientific study with appropriate methodology to proove your point.
4:05 Batting the charge port door back down had me dying 😂, so relatable lol
Thank you. I’m very happy with my battery Lithium lawn equipment, and while I will never go back to gas, it’s very difficult applying these charging methods, and it’s incredibly frustrating then having to carry around the same weight of batteries, but they have lost 60-80% capacity as they originally had and it’s environmentally terrible and very expensive to replace them - you have to carry around all this dead weight to get value out of them, and even then one battery could have purchased years of fuel energy.
This is the only time I miss gas, with the longer run times, lighter weight, cheaper to purchase and cheaper to run than Lithium lawn equipment.
I hope engineers and scientists can overcome weight and battery degradation, because it’s great using battery lawn equipment, with little to no vibration, no pollution at the user end and little maintenance and no handling of fuel.
I left the sirens of San Francisco for the leaf blowers of Belmont, is a joke I make since moving to the 'burbs.
Yah, great comment in light of municipalities moving to ban gas powered lawn appliances, particularly blowers, due to everything you mentioned. I feel bad adding weight to the guys I see around our neighborhood.
If charge to over 85% you should charge the last 15% as slow as possible
I just sold an Honda PHEV with ~70k miles and ~6 years on it, and that battery was well under 80% health. It only had ~11 kWh useable left of its original 17 kWh total rating.
Its life was going from whatever it called full to whatever it called empty 5 times a week, and charging back to full again at ~1.5 kW slow charge every night.
Likely an NMC tech, it was really not designed for its actual use, and there was literally no user-controllable settings to prevent 100% charge.
This video makes it sound like plug in Hybrids are a terrible idea, i wonder how companies like Toyota deal with these issues
As long as they don't use NMC chemistry.
Best Lion battery life is between 20% to 80% and with a heater or AC, it's half dead before you start. Then turn the lights on.
I bought our first EV last May so we haven't even had it a full year yet. It is a 2014 Chevy Spark EV. It originally had 21 kWh of capacity in its battery when new, based on our experiences and my calculations I believe it currently has about 14.4 kWh of capacity remaining. In the warmer months this gives us 60-70 miles of range but during these colder months we're down to about 45-55 miles of range. Thankfully this is still sufficient for our intended use. I have my son driving it for his daily commute to school which is 16 miles each way. When he started driving it regularly in the fall he would return home with about half of the charge remaining, now in the cold months he often returns home with less than 20% charge remaining. Unfortunately for our use we really have no choice but to fully charge the battery every night. We're still using the car's included level 1 charger, although I'm considering installing a level 2 charger this year. I really like this car and I'd love to get a lot of use out of it before we have to consider replacing the battery pack (for many reasons, not the least of which is that Chevrolet no longer supports this car). It had 36k miles when we bought it and we've already put on more than 6k of our own miles. Only time will tell. Thanks for the great video.
What does it mean when a manufacturer no longer supports a car? For appliances and electronics it means no more help, no more software updates, no more parts and no repairs done by them. For a car I can understand the first two but it’s normal to be able to get parts for a car for years after it’s no longer being sold new, and normal for garages to still fix them.
@@Sashazur Car companies are only required to maintain a supply of safety related parts (airbags, seat belts, etc) for ten years after a model is produced. Theoretically they could not stock a single spare for any other component after a car leaves the factory. In practice they maintain enough to cover warranty claims (3-5 years) and little else. I needed a return line for a 2001 Jeep Cherokee fuel tank in 2007. They made almost 3 million of those Jeeps, but mine was one of the last out the door they stopped production of everything else with it. Every Chrysler dealer I contacted told me it was impossible to get just that individual part. I would have to get an entire fuel tank assembly with all of the lines for well over a grand or get the line from a junk yard. I got one from a salvage yard, along with two tail gate bump stops for less than $70. Not standing behind their products like that is why I will never own another FCA, Stellantis, whatever they are called this week, ever again. I have an easier time getting parts for my 1950-1960s Studebakers than my modern cars.
I'm surprised people have to replace the batteries. We have a 2014 volt, still using the same battery and I don't notice a meaningful drop in distance.
I'm sure we eventually will need to but it'll have to cost a ton to offset the cost of maintaining a gas car (going off my prior cars).
Well, that's the things with mean time between failure. Sure, they are supposed to last 10 years, but some will be 6 and replaced under warranty, some will be 7 and get a huge bill, but then some will be 13 or 14 too.
TLDR: Don't store battery at 100% (for long periods of time). Don't wait until the battery is completely empty to recharge, just plug it in after every trip if you can. Don't charge to 100% every time. Charge to 75% if you can instead.
In other words, don't use the car as designed.
@@Ozark_Bule not really make sense like that, as this applies to all gadgets also, phones, laptops, etc. If you want to prolong their battery life in the long term you will take a little more care of them (when possible).
Or just buy a ICE car and enjoy life.
EVs are still very problematic.
@@HUMC5ice cars can be very problematic too if they are not maintained correctly
I have a 2018 model 3 long range with 130,000 miles. I charge it to only 75 percent and degradation has been minimal. They even recommend to not charge past 80 unless needed. So it’s definitely being used as intended. It’s been the simplest car yet. Maintenance has been minimal as well compared to all the ICE I’ve owned. No problems. Going strong. Both can be problematic yes but it’s all on how you take care of it.
Stuff everybody should know, but you realize hardly anyone knows. Just watched a video of a range test in LR 3 and the guy charged to 100% THE NIGHT BEFORE so it set all night at full and he ended up leaving the house with 98%. I wanted to yell at my screen.
It’s not a huge deal, but you can schedule it to charge early morning if you want, so that it’s a full before you leave.
@@EngineeringExplained In fairness, that's brand dependent. Teslas can, but I had a 2017 Bolt that, if I recall correctly, didn't have scheduled charging yet. It didn't even have a "charge limit" setting. Fortunately, it *did* have "hill top reserve" which set a 90% charge limit (better than nothing).
The newer Bolts have scheduled charging and customized charge limits in increments of 5%
Nicely done.
In brief, target keeping your battery around the center of its range for normal use.
For example, a Bolt with a 260 mile range the center is 130 miles.
If you normally commute 40 miles a day, set the target charge to 150 miles overnight.
when you drive 40 miles the next day it will drop to 110 miles of range left, enough for a good unexpected trip with the car.
and when you plan a longer trip set the target higher the night before accordingly
Really appreciate the in depth reasons for best practice battery care. In my case the power rates are lower off peak, but I will still want to keep the car plugged in so the battery cooling can take place in hot weather.
What? Electric doesn’t make sense if you cannot charge at home!? Here in the Netherlands I can charge at 3 chargers within 50 meters of my house and even without that I don’t mind stopped at a supercharger. The price of electricity is about four (4!!) times lower than petrol per km. Also say my battery will get “only” 1500 cycles before it’s done, then that is about 500 000 km or 310 000 miles. That’s gonna take me about 30 years!! I’ll probably want another car before that.
If you have three chargers within 50m of your house, then you effectively have charging at home…which proves the point. I’m very supportive of EV’s but they’re not perfect for everyone. Increased infrastructure is the solution and you seem to already be benefiting from it in your country.
@@Andrew-kj9fz Most of the time, I avoid those since they are too expensive and just stop by a supercharger though (which yes admittedly also 3 within 80 km). A benefit of living with many people per square mile in the Netherlands.
How are we defining "Storing" and "Hot"? I live in Florida where the car in the garage or outside can easily hit 100+ degrees and sometimes go a week without being driven. I keep my SOC at 70% and plug in whenever I return.
Thank you for the explanation. Basically (in theory), battery degradation is the same: charging once a week from 0% to 100% vs charging 5 times a week from 40% to 60%. 😊