As proven by 'The Untamed'. It's very strange how these people continue to find reasons to not tell other cultures' stories. Just the same euro centric stories over and over again, and then they are all magnonimous and say: But people from other cultures can be in them too! I don’t like thinking about it too deeply. The more I do, the more I am certain the proclaimed inclusiveness is just another form of pressing everything and everyone into the same old 'western' mould. Almost like missionaries. And that gives me chills.
Good vid Michaela. I’m a book reader, and a big Tolkien fan. There’s several differences between the LotR trilogy and the Amazon debacle. While Jackson made some changes to the story, he pretty much kept true to the characters (changes like Aragorn’s hesitancy to become king and Frodo’s rejection of Sam in Mordor being some of the biggest changes). But that added to their arcs. Also, he kept true to the spirit and overall essence of Tolkien and Middle Earth. RoP has botched beloved characters, completely changed the timeline, mixed up events, and failed to transport us to the amazing world of Middle Earth. Like you mentioned, the elves do not look like elves. The people of Numenor do not look like Numenoreans. The story is not engaging, and they messed with the lore too much to enjoy the show. Some of the costumes are not good, such as Numenor and the elvish armors, and…they made the villain weak. Galadriel is a horrible character. Her motivation is all wrong, her husband is nowhere to be seen, and her daughter hasn’t even been addressed. Her daughter, who btw, will marry Elrond and is the mother of Arwen, future wife of Aragorn. The writing is also atrocious. I have no idea how Amazon allowed this to be green lit. It’s really impressive how the most expensive TV series ever created could look so cheap and be so bad.
Completely agree. And as you mentioned Galadriels daughter, that sort of thing is precisely what I meant when I said amazing rop does not map well onto Tolkien and PJ trilogy. In the books and the Trilogy, Celeborn is very much so present, but if he’s dead in rings of power (the literal word they used is “lost” then is Elrond not marrying Galadriel’s daughter? And then are we not getting Arwen? So who is Aragon going to marry? I’m interested to see how the show will account for this negative domino effect…
I remember when NYT called rings of power out for too much diversity. Like how the ISLAND of Numenor was diverse as a NY subway. You done messed up if NYT calls you too woke
@@Bamazon1990 The small harfoot (harfeet?) community being extremely diverse while being composed of, like, 30 or 40 individuals is very hard to explain unless they have some special king of "magical" genetics.
Yes, Peter Jackson made a lot of changes, some of which were cringe. But PJ maintained the essence of the setting, the characters and the story. Pain and Decay have done none of that. PJ's version was an adaptation while Rings of Poop is LOTR in name only. Pain and Decay are incompetent buffoons filled with hubris. They are insane to think they are competent to rewrite Tolkien.
They are writing a soap opera, in a sort of fantasy setting that steals names, and a few creatures like the Balrog, in a watered down form, from Tolkien, but has nothing else to do with his stories.
Good vid. You raise alot of good points! If you only have access to the "apendacies" then perhaps you shouldn't make the show at all. Yes, peter did change a number of things. But he didnt deviate or distract from the story or the characters that Tolkien wrote. Theres a difference between adding to a story and completely rewriting it to suit your narrative.
I was disappointed when Peter Jackson did not show the grey company in RotK. But then I found out that was because there were *literally* no actors in all of New Zealand left that were elvish enough to play Elrond's sons, and that is a reason I accept. We didn’t like how Tolkien did it is not a reason I accept for changes. And also, I have seen actual fanfiction make you *love* a side character you have never noticed before in under 5k words. How the hell are *professionals* failing at this so hard?!
Three times in the novels, 3 versions of this line "It was the final straw for Sam. He burst into tears." 3 times, in different circumstances, Appears in the text. And that subtle little line, give or take a word, tells you so much about the character, what he values, what drives him. That's storytelling.
RoP is blantantly SHITTING ON not only the works, but the intent the Writer had for his works. They are The OPPOSITE. They are closer to Melkor than even Sauron could be. And for the casuals here: (Sauron was a mere lieutenant of Melkor.) & Michaela, to really understand who Galadriel is you have to look at her family and brothers. The Silmarillion holds those tales, but should you not want to read that, I suggest you look up Finrod Felagund & Feanor's (her Uncle) Lore should you wish to delve deeper. These two hold particular signifigance because 1 is a catalyst and the other is where Galadriel mostly gained her hard earned wisdom from. And incidentally Finrod is my personal favourite out of all the Elves Tolkien wrote about.
And great video! You’re right Gil-Galad is not an elf king he is unapologetically middle age and ugly. He’s also like you said like a bad manager there is nothing magical about him. Same with Celebrimbor what a joke
@@moon-moth1 He is ugly for the role sorry, same for Celebrimbor even though I forget Celebrimbor because the actor did such an amazing job. As for the age I don't think that's a problem, In LotR a lot of people like Eldron and he's also a middle age guy at that point. Elrond (not really, but compared with the rest of the actors) and Galadriel are the only good looking elves, that's a big problem for me, but I still think the show is worth watching. Durin, Sauron, Galadriel, Elrond and the Numenoreans are carrying this.
He did not change as much as ROP, let alone rewriting Tolkien's lore which is the reason why ppl hate ROP. Also you could say he (Jackson)understood the source material let alone Tolkiens lore, hence the changes. Plus Tolkien never wrote a Telenovela novel but rather a fantasy epic.
Maybe you're not a book person, but you'd be doing yourself a great injustice if you never gave them a shot. They're all amazing. Maybe not all for you, but especially the main LoTR volumes are so much fun.
My number one issue with The Rings of Power is that it doesn't seem to have any sincerity behind it. My second big issue with the show is how they treat my favourite elf Galadriel: When I was a kid and watched Fellowship of The Ring for the first time - I was in awe over Cate Blanchett's portrayal of this character, she had the look, the commanding and authoritative presence, she came off as being wise and knowledgeable, graceful and yet dangerous. Cate Blanchett did such a good job that she's the only cast member of the movies that I picture every time I read Tolkien's works. I know now that I'm older that Galadriel is the Great Mother archetype, the most powerful of all feminine strengths - a woman can copy male traits and the strengths of manhood, we often call this 'tomboyish' behaviours, but the feminine strength behind the Great Mother archetype cannot be copied by men, and most women do not possess this trait as their core character. Alas, we get to Rings of Power Galadriel, she has been stripped from her core archetype, an unmatched feminine strength, and was given the stereotypical view of strength that only amateurs would deem to be an improvement - the cheap copy of masculine traits with this new 'girl boss' trope that seemingly thinks that the only way a woman can be strong is if she's a carbon copy of male strength, and yet they neglect the most powerful strength that Galadriel already had, most likely deeming it to be 'outdated.' I can only view the 'girl boss' trope to be a misogynistic view of what strength is, and they parade this notion as if it were some progressive view, whilst simultaneously ignoring a timeless, psychological archetype that is attributed to this character. I am a big fan of the real Lady Galadriel, and as a 26-year-old Autist who fixates obsessively on archetypal structures and psychical processes, I am deeply disappointed with Amazon's cheap bastardisation. P.S. Sorry for the essay.
it's wildly inconsistent with both itself and the lore. the maiar of lord of the rings (saruman, Gandalf, Sauron, the blue wizards) are millenia old spirits with immense power (lesser valar) this nonsense amazon version has them as weak newbies. Gandalf was NOT trained by bombadil. he existed for centuries prior to this in the undying lands with the valar
This. As a Maia--a lesser god--Gandalf/Olorin not only existed for centuries prior, but almost certainly played a role in the actual *creation of the world*. So RoP gets Gandalf wrong on both fronts: he couldn't just casually summon up tornadoes/lightning storms/etc. like a D&D-style spellcaster or Marvel superhero--the Valar placed some strict limits on the Wizards' power, including their human-like bodies--but at the same time he didn't come as a dimwitted man-child needing an education. He had the full *wisdom* of a Maia, but with power limitations. So basically, RoP got Gandalf/the Wizards not just a little wrong, but totally backwards.
Why, black people can't be racists? She is right about some things, but not about everything. The Numenoreans look perfectly fine to me, the only problem with them is that Elendil's wife cheated on him both times she got pregnant.
The letter metaphor was so great, especially when I think about how P.J. often played around with direct quotes, giving them to different characters or using them at different points than they were originally said. Or the way some songs made it as dialogue.
Even worse, like regular modern people. Even men in the LotR trilogy look more otherworldly than Gil-Galad - at least in the sense that I believe that they don't live down the road from me.
I do not know where people got the idea that Amazon licensed only the Appendices and not the main text of Lord of the Rings. It is obvious that mentions of names like Celeborn in season one, and most recently the appearance of characters superficially resembling Ents, Barrow-wights, and Tom Bombadil, shows that they can use (or abuse) whatever they like from the main text. Peter Jackson's films remind me of Huck Finn's introduction to his book: "You don't know about me without you have read a book by the name of The Adventures of Tom Sawyer; but that ain't no matter. That book was made by Mr. Mark Twain, and he told the truth, mainly. There was things which he stretched, but mainly he told the truth. That is nothing. I never seen anybody but lied one time or another, without it was Aunt Polly, or the widow, or maybe Mary. Aunt Polly - Tom's Aunt Polly, she is - and Mary, and the Widow Douglas is all told about in that book, which is mostly a true book, with some stretchers, as I said before." Yeah, Peter Jackson stretched some things, and occasionally threw in what Huck would call a 'whopper', but mainly he told the truth. It must be remembered that Tolkien wants the readers to believe in his world (while they are reading it), and sometimes described it as 'feigned history'. And that phrase is the key thing here: Tolkien's-and to some extent, Jackson's-fans view The Lord of the Rings as a mostly true, though feigned, history, and expect a dramatization to faithfully portray that history. We mustn't think of it in terms of an "adaptation", as JRRT's writings on the Second Age are a chronicle, not a novel with continuous events, quotable dialogue, and so on. Now, we know that there has never been a historical drama that did not take liberties, often large, with history. Events and characters are combined or simply added, sometimes put out of sequence, and so on. Shakespeare's dialogue for Julius Caesar is almost wholly invented (and not in Latin). Historical drama is not documentary, mostly because history doesn't coöperate with the rules for writing screenplays. But. Even in historical dramas, we expect the history to be presented in good faith, not twisted to fit it to the Procrustean bed of some screenwriter's pet project. What Rings of Power gives us is the equivalent of a bizarre movie about the Revolutionary War: everyone expects Plymouth Pilgrims to be in a U.S. historical, and nothing much happened between 1650 and 1750 anyway, so we'll throw them in (we'll use another word if 'Pilgrim' is not acceptable). History doesn't explicitly tell us that Abigail Adams _didn't_ have a secret affair with Benedict Arnold, so we'll put that in for interest. Andrew Jackson is pretty famous, so teenage Andrew Jackson will demonstrate his exceptionally acrobatic martial arts skills in saving his friend, the weak and indecisive George Washington. Betsy Ross and Sally Hemmings are the real ghost-writers of the Declaration of Independence, because Jefferson is too busy with other, um, affairs. The German Hessians will speak English all the time (with a German accent of course), even when only speaking among themselves, and switch to German for emphasis at random times. TRoP doesn't just take a few liberties with the imagined history-it pretty much ignores it, except for names of people and places. To enjoy it, Tolkien and Jackson fans have to be willing to forgive much, and their imaginations must do the heavy lifting fill in the gaps themselves for TRoP's shoddy storytelling, time and distance absurdities, physical implausibilities, and so on.
When 'people' say Amazon only has the rights to the LoTR appendices, they mean Amazon did not get the rights to the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales books. These books cover, among other things, the time period from the Amazon show. That is why 90% of what Tolkien wrote about the 2nd age is unusable by Amazon. And that is why they wronlgy add things like Barrow Wights from the 3rd age into the shows 2nd age time period.
In Appendix F of The Return of the King, he explicitly describes Elves as "fair of skin": Elves has been used to translate both Quendi, ‘the speakers’, the High-elven name of all their kind, and Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the Sindar only). This old word was indeed the only one available, and was once fitted to apply to such memories of this people as Men preserved, or to the makings of Men’s minds not wholly dissimilar. But it has been diminished, and to many it may now suggest fancies either pretty or silly, as unlike to the Quendi of old as are butterflies to the swift falcon - not that any of the Quendi ever possessed wings of the body, as unnatural to them as to Men. They were a race high and beautiful, the older Children of the world, and among them the Eldar were as kings, who now are gone: the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars. They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin; and their voices had more melodies than any mortal voice that now is heard. They were valiant, but the history of those that returned to Middle-earth in exile was grievous; and though it was in far-off days crossed by the fate of the Fathers, their fate is not that of Men. Their dominion passed long ago, and they dwell now beyond the circles of the world, and do not return.
"Peter Jackson changed the story though he had the full source material to work with..." Sorry, but no, this is not the case. He optimized it, but haven't changed the core spirit&world and this is what makes something an adaptation and not a low effort fanfiction. I still would gladly watch a good fanfic, but ROP is not written very well either. My main problem is that I really don't know what group of peeps it is made for. Any guesses? 😬
Nailed that. Not many people seem to comprehend the difference between PJ's adaption and RoP or even that there is, in fact, a significant difference to begin with.
I thought i explained how there was a difference between PJ and ROP’s execution of Tolkien’s world. If I didn’t explain well enough I will try my best to get such things across in the future. Thank you for your feed back 😊
Thinking it through again, the problem was only as you started with the statement that LOTR was also altered in many aspects. This is technically true but this paralell might trigger some folks. Of course you don't have to navigate on eggshells, but starting with this may cause a sudden "oh, c'mon" reaction. 😅
So, I've just finished listening thru ALL the unabridged JRR Tolkien masterwork on Audible, including The Silmarillion & Unfinished Tales, as well as the other posthumous scripts which Christopher painstakingly went back, pieced together & released...that being said, Peter Jackson did an ASTOUNDING job of staying true to 90% of Tolkien's original text material. True, the parts with Tom Bombadil & a couple other smaller details were changed (like Sam actually entering Shelob's lair with Frodo, Eowyn's recovery in Gondor's Healer Hall and her interactions with Faramir, & in The Hobbit, a HUGE detail to me missing was the Ravens communicating directly with the Dwarves around The Lonely Mountain, etc)...NOW, that being said...when u compare so many other literary works being adapted into films and how much creative liberties were taken (don't get me started on Anne Rice adaptations 🙄😒), Peter Jackson did indeed stay very loyal to 90% of the LOTR canon...ROP I still find enjoyable however there r def a LOT of discrepancies which r not excusable...my biggest one is Galadriel...at the start of Season 1, I admired her tenacity & determination to follow her intuition over listening to others around her; that matches Lady of the Light Galadriel to a T!! But her quarrelsome confrontational tendencies do not, not quite how they're portrayed in ROP, esp after the first few episodes of Season 1. I'm quite disappointed already, with how ROP Season 2 is turning out; Sauron is not At.All how he's described in Silmarillion!! All of that aside, I was VERY pleasantly surprised how loyal Peter Jackson remained to LOTR & The Hobbit in his adaptations; he did JRR Tolkien & Tolkien's estate truly proud, given Hollywood's tendency to disgrace literary classics for broader audience appeal & larger box office sales (don't get me STARTED on the Twilight series on that note, either 🙄😒🤦♀️🤢🤮) Does anyone here know of committed forums for JRR Tolkien's LOTR fans & chats, pls?? Thx ☺️🧝♀️✨️
I think if there were a list of top ten book to movie adaptations of all time, Peter Jackson’s would definitely make that list. Also I did buy a twilight shirt today 😂 now that you mention twilight. I don’t know of any forums, but I know I wanted to discuss or at least be a part of the discussion so that’s why I started making these videos 🤗
Yes but I don’t think it would be as bad. Associating a show with Tolkien was just about the worst thing they could have done, because now it has to measure up to Tolkien and it’s falling very short. A stand alone show might actually be digestible. People like soap operas, but I agree with you, soaps are not Tolkien-ian.
This was really good. You nailed all of my issues with this show. Its painful, but i can't look away. From an audio guy, some completely unsolicited suggestions that you are tr I to take or leave, but i had trouble hearing you a few times. You might need to put your mic a bit closer to your face, or turn the recording volume up about 20% cos sometimes, you can be a little quiet. It can also be boosted in editing software. Thanks!
This is such a wonderful video. You hit many of the points as to why this show is so terribly hard to embrace. I totally agree about the elves. Without the ears, you wouldn’t know an elf from a human. Another issue for me the the condensing of thousands of years into months. Perhaps a year? I also appreciate how you argued passionately without being mean spirited. I look forward to more videos!
I wanted to love this show so badly. I love Tolkien books and storytelling. I stopped watching in the first season, at episode 5. It’s just not good for many reason and you hit some of them. For me. It feels like fan faction. It’s a shame because there is people trying and some high production value. Good video by the way.
Thank you! The show has lost me with “the kiss” so I won’t be watching season 3. If the show gets cancelled it would be a shame because like you said there are people trying very hard to make the show beautiful and polished
I'm a big fan of the video essay genre and I think you nailed this. It was on point and well-argued. (Also, it may be beside my point, but I agree with you.)
So glad I found your channel. Your explanation of the issues with ROP is the best I've seen of all. Firstly, your not pounding your fist and being hateful -- which so many reviewers of ROP, Star Wars and others are. It's getting old. Secondly, you very articulately and succinctly explain your POV, a POV that makes sense. I look forward to more videos from you. Thanks! 👍 So, yes, it's the common ailment with current entertainment -- don't be original, only do established franchises, and above all, don't really understand what the elements are that make those franchises fan favorites. Oh, and throw money at it so it 'looks good' but is, in fact, marginal to not good. EDIT: Oh, and SUBSCRIBED! :)
Very good points. They spend a lot of money on the rights but really they could change the names and nobody would know it was supposed to be Tolkien. Just some generic fantasy.
I agree with a lot of your points. Somehing else I would add is the costuming is not up to par. I get that Weta probably wasnt available for a seria style show, but there clearly isnt enough work going into the costumes/armor. The elf armor is missing the flair from the lore and lots of "armor" looks cheap. Some you can tell are just shirts with a printed pattern.
The most changes Peter Jackson made was to cut off content like Tom Bombadil that really didn't matter to the story. The others where at least not contradicting the books. And honesty, i don't think that the writers were forbidden to read the books. But i always had the impression that they really disliked their source material. Just with the witcher, why making a show of a content you dislike than rather create something new?
Just adding up unnecessary Characters is an abomination. Its like their saying Tolkien sucks at storytelling. People behind the show Hates Tolkien so much.
It takes place in the Second Age, in a time period with countless unnamed characters. To tell a story in this setting requires the invention of new characters.
the biggest reason we don't like rings of power , is the fact it`s total trash ! no matter how you look at it , it has no connection to the silmarillion except for names of the characters ! it`s like they never read the book !
Congratulations, Michaela, on a thoughtful contribution to the discussion. FWIW, I was entertained by the Jackson films but also had serious problems with choices that Jackson made which I don't think were made in order to make the characters be antagonistic to Tolkien's work but for purely commercial considerations (For example, The Hobbit would have made a decent one-off picture, but Jackson was committed to the trilogy and so had to pad it almost beyond recognition.) But the real point about Jackson's films is that they kept the overall integrity of the story. The Rings of Power does not. The "showrunners" (pretentious phrase) and writers are creating a world of their own that really has nothing to do at all with LoTR. That is the travesty. I can give one contemporary example of how to do it right: the Dark Winds series. Yes, they make substantial changes to the Hillerman novel (For example, Leaphorn is stationed at Flagstaff, Chee is already a Navajo policeman, and Bernie comes in further along). But, they retain the tone of the books as well as the respect Hillerman has for the Navajo culture. They have changed Hillerman's constructs without desecrating and discarding them. RoP can make no such claim. OK, I'm not a published writer but have written short stories for my own satisfaction, and have a pretty good idea of what an actual writer has to do. Here's what neither the "showrunners" (again: pretentious phrase) or "writers" know, understand or even would be able to do if they did know or understand it. An epic must above all have an overarching purpose and aim. Everything worthy of note in the epic story is in service of that overarching purpose. The story may contain moments that are irrelevant to the overall purpose and aim, but those are few and far between. This production does not have any such vision. Watch it from the first moment of the first episode (if you are masochistic) and you will never find any sense of the epic as I define it here. Where is all this going? Nowhere that I can detect. What they are producing is a disconnected series of soap opera-like vignettes, none of which have any purpose in telling the overall story. So there is no continuity, and no relationship between any of these vignettes. The only thing these "modern" writers are interested in is sending and pounding us with their DEI messages regardless of the complete lack of verisimilitude anywhere. It's all complete artifice in service not to the Tolkien saga but only in service of their "woke" agenda. So when critics of the series invoke "The Lore", this is how I understand it. The overall story line has to aim at the end, which has to be the start of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings (i.e., The Hobbit). If it is going anywhere else (and it is, though that "anywhere" is impossible to divine), then it is not only disrespectful of "The Lore" but irrelevant to it. And that's what these people have left us with: a disconnected maze of stories that are irrelevant to each other, with casting that treats Middle Earth as if it were downtown Manhattan.
The hobbit was a definite fumble (it’s a shame, too, because the characters deserved to be as renowned as the ones in the LOTR trilogy). I agree that the plot of ROP meanders A LOT. You know I was actually interested in Adar’s plot but after a whole season it seems the show has just led him in a circle until he could launch his assault on Eregion. That seems incredibly wasteful to me. And look what they’ve done with Arondir. His task changes every episode as if the show is saying “he can be here, and here, and here, then here, until we get to the big battle) The most insulting part is the show does this as if no one will notice 🤔
and number 4; they explain and show things that should be unknown and hidden. capital offense in fantasy. I mean, wasting time showing us 'how Gandalf got his staff'? Who gives a shit? considering who and what he is, it should be plenty to know he HAS one.
Even the Hobbit Trilogy is Masterpiece compared to the Rings of Power. The Hobbit Trilogy isn't amazing, but it has way more respect to the source material and tries to tell a story...
The writing is so ultra bad. It’s not even entertaining bad. It’s not even cringe it’s just boring as hell. “Evil that lives only to spread malice!” I mean doesn’t evil MEAN malice 🤪
As per your comparison of the two versions of Galadriel, at the time of Rings of Power she should be married with a couple of grown kids and starting Lothlorien. They basically demoted and downgraded Galadriel for the series.
Right audio channel has lower volume than left audio channel, probably due to imperfect contact of the microphone's jack (connector) or a similar technical issue.
To be fair, there are plenty of us who have major issues with the PJ movies. The real difference is that the movies still told a good story that made sense. In Rings of Power the story is stupid, the acting is pretty bad generally, the fight scenes are so bad they make Power Rangers fights look realistic in comparison, and the dialog is some of the cringiest ever recorded.
Great respect to your video, except... how do you quantify "amount being changed"? I prefer the books to Jackson's work, but I would prefer being kicked in the head and chest to Rings Of Power. To equate Jackson's work to RoP...? > because you can tell how many people are working very hard on this show like especially the actors and it's all going to be for nothing I don't mean to be rude, but, speaking as a Russian/German/Ukrainian living in Australia, there are a lot of people working very hard on the Russian/Ukrainian war. Or, say, the Israel/Gaza war. Just because there are a lot of people working on it does NOT MEAN IT'S SOMETHING THAT OUGHT TO BE WORKED ON.
Peter Jackson changed many many things, and as a teen I disliked them back then (well, not all the changes, for example no Tom Bombadil was the right choice), but, no, he did not change just as many things as these show runners are changing. But, it doesn't really matter, the problem with the show is not that is not a close adaptation. It's the lack of a decent script. Do they even let the writers do their job or are all the plots decided in a small executive office?
There’s no way they have actually spent a billion $ on this show. The writing is terrible, it’s cast with 3rd rate actors. This show is a $ laundering scheme or something
For real? Not attacking. I want to know what you like about the show? You like the characters? The visuals? The story? Lore? Do you like the harfoot and stranger storyline?
@@lukeluke333lukeluke the main thing I like is just enjoying time in Middle earth seeing so much legendary stuff I thought I’d never see on screen…everything is so beautifully rendered and most of it is well-designed. I like the warrior Galadriel character. It’s an aspect of her character nobody ever thinks about… that she had to take part in fighting for the people of middle earth…she wasn’t always just a shiny elf in the woods. I like the orc stories, I like a lot of the new characters. I think overall the storytelling is a bit weak…but not any worse than most other on-screen fantasy/sci-fi. I do NOT like the harfoot / stranger story. But only because so far it’s really boring. The characters are OK, but they’re not doing much, and as yet I do not understand their peril at all.
Adar and Arondir are fine conceptually. I root for them the most, but the show has to do the heavy lifting and give them good story lines. These original characters are the best characters of the show. I look forward to learning more about Galadriel as i continue reading the trilogy
Oh, so you know something that they don't, really? And if these people knew what you know, they wouldn't do what they do? Hint: they know and they do it on purpose.
Rings of Power series was doomed before they even started filming it. When you check the interviews with creators more often than not you find out arrogance meets ignorance combo.
I'm currently watching Season 2 (not bothering with season 1 because it's too hard to get through). I'm trying not to watch it through a Tolkien lense, so to speak. But even so, I still don't like it. The story reminds me of my writing when I have no idea what I'm doing or when I've lost interest in my own story. It has no soul, the characters aren't believable, and it's just bad storytelling.
Awww don’t put down on your writing 🙈 But you know, the writing is poor but made the poorer by associating it with Tolkien who was a master at his craft. But even if someone is not master of their craft (yet) I bet their work is at least palatable when it stands on its own two feet. It’s a shame Amazon did try to present us with an original ip, I’m confident a show they didn’t try to copy would get much better ratings.
@@Nerdmaid lol thanks. Yes I've been approaching it as an original story and it makes it slightly more tolerable to watch (despite the over borrowing of quotes and shots from the books or PJ films.)
I honestly don't like the show simply because has nothing to do with anything Tolkien wrote and the fact that they lied about reading parts of the parts of the material that was given to them, this show is nothing more than a cash grab
this is more of a love story then fantasy/adventure. women writers. Galadriel is just ridiculous in so many ways. the characters and directing is garbage
I'm a fan and I'm loving the RoP series. Just re-watched series 1 before starting series 2 and it's a phenomenal production. Series 2 so far is even better. I'm hooked.
You are totally wrong. the main problem is not the lore or violation of the lore. if you make a great show people will look past violation of the lore. the abysmal writing is the main problem. and its just a boring show.
I agree but adherence to the lore is necessary also if they want to use the world Tolkien created. But the writing is just terrible lets agree to that.
Thank you both for responding. Sooo many other TH-camrs actually talked about how the writing was bad. I did want my list of reasons to be some what unique ☺️
I guess tolkien would have liked people discussing and enjoying his works. Probably he him self was never a stuck up "muh canon" elitist, as he often wrote things in a way for you to interpret in a way you can relate to it yourself. We would all do good if we just enjoyed things and learned more about tolkiens world. Christopher Tolkien also did not like the Peter Jackson Movies everybody praises. He did not even want them to be made. Afaik his opinion basically can be shortened to "It's too much hollywood". So saying Tolkien fans will hate this or that is bs, sorry tolkien would probably be all about enjoying his world. Even his books are written by persons out of his world and are stories written from their eyes. This alone implies that even they are not always the absolute "truth" as a story told always has influences of his writer. Also even implying one is not a "true" tolkien fan if you not hate this or that is a childish and elitist way to say "I'm a better fan because I hate on RoP".
I do agree about the elves, but don't agree with Galadriel, Morfydd Clark does a very good job. I disagree about the Numenoreans, they look imposing enough compared to the people of Mordor. As for likeable characters, there are plenty of likeable characters.
I'm very much a Tolkien fan, and have been all my life. I have a lot of criticisms of Rings of Power, but on the whole I think it stays considerably more respectful and true to Tolkien's moral philosophy than than Jackson's movies. I'm afraid to say that for most criticisms I hear of the new show, I suspect the critiques come from a place of not knowing Tolkien well enough. For example, you say Galadriel should be depicted as royalty, not a warrior -- but Tolkien tells us she was one of the greatest warriors of all the elves. Her very name itself comes from how she wore her hair (accurately depicted in certain Rings of Power scenes) as she compete (and won) in athletic contests against male elves. In this period of her life, Tolkien describes Galadriel as being in her "Amazon warrior" phase. To delve a little deeper, Galadriel certainly had wisdom, but she also rebelled against the Valar (one of the only elf women to stand tall, as Tolkien tells us, with the followers of Feanor who decided to go to Middle Earth). When her father came to his senses, repented, and turned back, Galadriel carried on and continued leading the march through the northern wastes even after being abandoned by Feanor. Why? Tolkien tells us it was because she harbored ambitions to rules kingdoms of her own will. This is related to one of my critiques of the show -- Galadriel's motivations seem to have been replaced somewhat by the general Noldor motivations, but I don't have an issue with her being blinded by strong faulty ambitions at this stage. You talk about how Jackson got the elves right, but he changed their presentation rather drastically, to comport with modern sensibilities of "serious," "ethereal," and "wise." Tolkien's elves were wise, powerful, and silly, both more ethereal and more down-to-earth than you'd expect of a man, full of high-minded far-seeing advice and dark twisted flaws. I remember being so disappointed with the whole creepiness of Lothlorien and Galadriel when I first saw those movies, and my opinion has only improved a little over the years. Finally, I'll briefly point out that Jackson's depiction of evil and what drives characters to become evil is shallow and/or entirely different from Tolkien's. In this regard, Rings of Power is not only providing a better depiction, it's explicitly engaging with Tolkien's philosophy and world-building in this regard. It remains to be seen whether it keeps this up. Give the Silmarillion another read, and give the show another chance. It's got plenty of flaws, but there is a great deal of value in there and if nothing else the showrunners drop nonstop easter eggs showing the degree to which they really do understand Tolkien and his world, however much they are changing. I did appreciate that you noted how much Jackson changed in his films -- many critics of RoP do not understand or recognize this. And some of Jackson's changes I thoroughly approve of in the context of adaptation. But overall I feel like the more deep the possible resonance with Tolkien, the more Jackson failed.
The show runners do not understand or respect Tolkien. Sauron being a thing of slime, Elrond not considered an elf-lord, Galadriel a short angry woman who argues often and shows no signs of wisdom...And for crying out loud orcs having a family life??? This is so stupid. Peter Jackson never made such mistakes. Not even close. You say that ROP follows Tolkien's moral philosophy? Why then did they include so much rubbish? Orcs were monsters more or less totally dependent on their masters (although Shagrat and Gorbag had dreams of setting up their own base- its unlikely that they could control their subordinates for an extended period). You also say that theyve out in Easter Eggs. But that is only passing and often times a caricature of what Tolkien wrote. I suspect you are being paid to write this because ROP totally misses the mark. The script is horrendous.
@@user-ui3dv5ek7l I am just a nobody Tolkien nerd. Nobody could possibly pay me enough to motivate me to write this, and I wouldn't write it if I didn't believe it was true. With the state of the internet these days, I do nonetheless understand your suspicion. If you'll allow me what I hope to be a respectful response: "Sauron being a thing of slime." That visual representation was certainly "a decision," as they say. I don't think Tolkien describes the long process by which Sauron was able to regain physical form in the third age, but given his general imagery, I would have preferred ROP to depict a form of shadow, not slime. Perhaps a shadow that slowly took form into something like a shadow-slime thing, before finally taking human form once more. But it was a neat idea to have him regain form from his blood that spilled. That said, however much I might change or tweak this, I don't see it as being fundamentally counter to any of Tolkien's ideas. Perhaps they could have just never quite shown the process, but only hinted at it -- that might have been better. "Elrond not considered an elf-lord." I don't know exactly what constitutes an "elf-lord," but in the second age Elrond was a herald of Gil-galad. He hasn't yet founded Rivendell, after which point I'm sure he would be considered an elf-lord. But perhaps I'm missing the forest for the trees and not understanding your point. "Galadriel a short angry woman who argues often and shows no signs of wisdom" You got me on "short." I remember being frustrated with Jackson's films when Boromir didn't have dark hair. As for the argumentativeness, I'm waiting to see how they develop her character further. In her youth she must have had some elements of brazenness and chutzpah based off of Tolkien's depiction, but it's certainly a surprise to me to see how hyperfocused their depiction is, and lacking in visible introspection. That said, I cannot imagine that the showrunners do not have a plan for character growth that takes her from where she is now to where we know she must be by the end of the second age where the show will wrap up. Time will tell! As for no signs of wisdom, I definitely disagree there. She has her moments. "And for crying out loud orcs having a family life" To be clear, they haven't really shown family life so much as an orc father greeting an orc mother. I was pissed when Jackson showed half-orc half-humans being born fully formed out of a slime pit. Tolkien wrestled with the nature of orcs, and so did his elves. Morgoth sometimes released the very first bent and twisted elves back into the wild, where they returned to their elvish roots and the elves struggled with how to reincorporate them into society. Obviously, by this time after millennia of breeding, this is unthinkable -- but they remain twisted shadows of elves. And at this period in the history of Middle-Earth, with Morgoth dead and Sauron not yet dominating their wills once more, would they not start recreating a pale shadow of civilization? Forget the show for a moment: in Tolkien's own stories, how would orc babies even survive without some kind of care?
I will also note that I only took time to comment here because @Nerdmaid's video, where I agree and disagree both, was thoughtful. Most of the videos out there discussing ROP seem to me just ragebait trash designed to grow a channel.
The slime part was bad but that he ate the person on the wagon and turned into Halbrand was possibly even worse. Glorfindel was considered an elf-lord but he still had a lower rank than Elrond. That Boromir did not have dark hair is of lesser importance but still not according to Tolkien. Orcs most likely did not raise their own children. They were probably separated from their parents to prevent any bond forming between them. Regardless Tolkien never made the orcs likeable. They were bred for war and as a force of slave labour.
@@user-ui3dv5ek7l Regarding Halbrand, worse how? I don't see a problem off the top of my head, but that doesn't mean anything. I could be convinced. Glorfindel had been a lord of Gondolin, died, and later returned to Middle-Earth (source: The Peoples of Middle-Earth). And Elrond was Lord of Rivendell by the time you are referencing. Again, at the time the show is set, Tolkien has Elrond serving under Gil-galad. Regardless -- I am more interested in why this is one of your main points, so I'll just grant for the sake of argument that Elrond ought to bear the title of "lord" at this stage. What are the wider implications to the story, that make this important? You're right about Boromir. I said it slightly tongue-in-cheek. It annoyed me very slightly, but mainly because Jackson took such a "historical documentary" approach to his adaptation (which, when it works, works so beautifully). For Rings of Power I consider the adaptation closer to how I consider many Shakespearean productions: sometimes they cast great actors for certain roles, even if the physical characteristics of the actor don't make sense in-world. I think it's a valid choice either way, so long as those physical characteristics are merely setting-appropriate rather than crucial to the characters and the plot. I think your hypothesis is entirely plausible, especially during any time when the orcs lived under the domination of Morgoth or Sauron. Similarly, the show's hypothesis that without such domination they might try rearing their own children seems to me also plausible. Both are speculative. But in general, the longer Tolkien developed his world, the more his views on orc's nature and origin evolved and the more he grappled with their moral implications. I appreciate that the show is incorporating Tolkien's more nuanced ideas in this period of the orc's history (e.g., Adar's asking Galadriel whether they are not also children of Iluvatar). I hope that by the end of the show, with Sauron wielding the One, they will show the impact this had on the orcs and how their wills became once more fully enslaved and subsumed. I certainly don't see the show in any way presenting the orcs as "likable." They are evil yet tragic.
The show did lose me with “the kiss” but I was enjoying it up until then. I hope Arondir lives. As I understand Arondir and Andar are both original characters, and imo they are the most intriguing so I was enjoying their development the most
Some Tolkien fans hate the show. Others dont. Some Tolkien fans who hate it dont actually seem to know that much about Tolkien. Why are you speaking for Tolkien fans? Also Galadriel could very well have been different in the Second Age. Its thousands of years in the past.
I have read nearly everything the Tolkien Estate has published. RoP is closer to fan fiction than interpretation of the original work. The names and places are the same but the characters have no resemblance to the originals. Tolkien wrote chapters on Galadriel. Amazon had plenty of source material for her. The character in RoP whose name is spelled Galadriel isn’t even close. Much less the absolute butchering of the First Age material. She’s married for the love of Pete. What really chaps me is Amazon could have made both fans like me who wanted to see the story Tolkien laid out brought to life and those who had never opened a single book very happy and made twice as much. Could have made Game of Thrones look like a pretender. They would have doubled their audience for less money. A lot of Tolkien fans are just profoundly disappointed.
your video analysis is awesome. You weirdly talk like you were scared to wake up a baby. Anchor your voice to your body, breath from the belly, find the vibration in your throat that will resonate the more naturally to you, fill the room, hence capture your audience. And it will be more easy to play with your voice like the instrument it is: convey emotion, humour or give emphasis to what you say. Your voice is very sweet as is, don't get me wrong, if you'd work on it a little, you could give it more layers, more depth
Dude, I don't know what you're talking about.I've read the books and just because they changed a bunch of stuff 4 t v does not make it bad like you guys are all just flipping out for no reason like get over yourselves
Um, hi there 😀 I do like the show, there is no flipping out on my part🤗 the video is more or less saying “okay even though I myself like the show, I also get why a die-hard Tolkien fan may dislike the show”
Fk the fans... Its a nirmally good show.. it has millions of views.. you dont like it.. dont watch it.. they didnt follow your holly book.. so what.. the writer died and got paid to shut up in his grave 😅
The show is terrible and didn't make up it's budget in money because it was so overproduced. It failed as a business project and as an art piece. The only reason it's still going is that if they ended it, people would get fired for failing at their jobs.
I do like to give credit where it is due (you’ll notice in my review videos). When I watch the show, I’m watching as a fan and there are things I like. I understand the complaints of others, but I myself am still going to enjoy the show.
These "hate" videos are so stupid. Keep making video of things you don't like and spread the hate.. it is exactly what this world needs, great job.. In the meanwhile, me and the other millions of people who love rings of power will go enjoying the show ;) bye have fun
@@user-ui3dv5ek7l I doubt a shallow, aggressive kid that can't take people disliking their favorite shitpile would be worth paying even a single cent. Sometimes people have no clue or taste. That's just how it is.
And why shouldn't we discuss our displeasure? If you see something you don't like, or someone voices an opinion you disagree with, do you remain silent for fear of spreading more hate? Obviously not, or you wouldn't have posted this comment in the first place. Also, you should seek help. Having millions of imaginary friends is not generally considered a sign of strong mental health.
if this series have so much of a fan base, why are so few actually watching it (according to the firms who actually measure such) and adverts selling ever cheaper and that Bezos reportedly is unhappy about costs/popularity to the point of considering cutting his losses by cancellation?
There are many dozens of excellent stories & legends of African origin that Hollywood has ignored.
anansi would be a good and entertaining anti hero
Yes, if Hollywood wasn’t so franchise obsessed then maybe we’d get more of this stories. They underestimate the potential audience for them 🤔
As proven by 'The Untamed'.
It's very strange how these people continue to find reasons to not tell other cultures' stories. Just the same euro centric stories over and over again, and then they are all magnonimous and say: But people from other cultures can be in them too!
I don’t like thinking about it too deeply. The more I do, the more I am certain the proclaimed inclusiveness is just another form of pressing everything and everyone into the same old 'western' mould. Almost like missionaries. And that gives me chills.
Great.. so let aftrikans do the films
@@jadhussein8412 The themes are often universal. And there are some filmmakers in South Africa and other countries.
Good vid Michaela. I’m a book reader, and a big Tolkien fan. There’s several differences between the LotR trilogy and the Amazon debacle. While Jackson made some changes to the story, he pretty much kept true to the characters (changes like Aragorn’s hesitancy to become king and Frodo’s rejection of Sam in Mordor being some of the biggest changes). But that added to their arcs. Also, he kept true to the spirit and overall essence of Tolkien and Middle Earth. RoP has botched beloved characters, completely changed the timeline, mixed up events, and failed to transport us to the amazing world of Middle Earth. Like you mentioned, the elves do not look like elves. The people of Numenor do not look like Numenoreans. The story is not engaging, and they messed with the lore too much to enjoy the show. Some of the costumes are not good, such as Numenor and the elvish armors, and…they made the villain weak. Galadriel is a horrible character. Her motivation is all wrong, her husband is nowhere to be seen, and her daughter hasn’t even been addressed. Her daughter, who btw, will marry Elrond and is the mother of Arwen, future wife of Aragorn. The writing is also atrocious. I have no idea how Amazon allowed this to be green lit. It’s really impressive how the most expensive TV series ever created could look so cheap and be so bad.
Completely agree. And as you mentioned Galadriels daughter, that sort of thing is precisely what I meant when I said amazing rop does not map well onto Tolkien and PJ trilogy. In the books and the Trilogy, Celeborn is very much so present, but if he’s dead in rings of power (the literal word they used is “lost” then is Elrond not marrying Galadriel’s daughter? And then are we not getting Arwen? So who is Aragon going to marry?
I’m interested to see how the show will account for this negative domino effect…
I remember when NYT called rings of power out for too much diversity. Like how the ISLAND of Numenor was diverse as a NY subway. You done messed up if NYT calls you too woke
Absolutely correct. Not a single point I don't agree with. Perfection.
@@Bamazon1990 The small harfoot (harfeet?) community being extremely diverse while being composed of, like, 30 or 40 individuals is very hard to explain unless they have some special king of "magical" genetics.
Faramir was done dirty. Other than that, I'm cool with PJ
Yes, Peter Jackson made a lot of changes, some of which were cringe. But PJ maintained the essence of the setting, the characters and the story. Pain and Decay have done none of that. PJ's version was an adaptation while Rings of Poop is LOTR in name only. Pain and Decay are incompetent buffoons filled with hubris. They are insane to think they are competent to rewrite Tolkien.
They are writing a soap opera, in a sort of fantasy setting that steals names, and a few creatures like the Balrog, in a watered down form, from Tolkien, but has nothing else to do with his stories.
Good vid. You raise alot of good points! If you only have access to the "apendacies" then perhaps you shouldn't make the show at all. Yes, peter did change a number of things. But he didnt deviate or distract from the story or the characters that Tolkien wrote. Theres a difference between adding to a story and completely rewriting it to suit your narrative.
I was disappointed when Peter Jackson did not show the grey company in RotK. But then I found out that was because there were *literally* no actors in all of New Zealand left that were elvish enough to play Elrond's sons, and that is a reason I accept.
We didn’t like how Tolkien did it is not a reason I accept for changes.
And also, I have seen actual fanfiction make you *love* a side character you have never noticed before in under 5k words.
How the hell are *professionals* failing at this so hard?!
Wow I respect that, like “We can’t do it properly so we are not going to do it poorly”. 👍🏽
Oh I had no idea!!!! It’s one of my biggest complaints about LOTR!!!
Three times in the novels, 3 versions of this line "It was the final straw for Sam. He burst into tears." 3 times, in different circumstances, Appears in the text. And that subtle little line, give or take a word, tells you so much about the character, what he values, what drives him.
That's storytelling.
RoP is blantantly SHITTING ON not only the works, but the intent the Writer had for his works.
They are The OPPOSITE.
They are closer to Melkor than even Sauron could be.
And for the casuals here: (Sauron was a mere lieutenant of Melkor.)
& Michaela, to really understand who Galadriel is you have to look at her family and brothers. The Silmarillion holds those tales, but should you not want to read that, I suggest you look up Finrod Felagund & Feanor's (her Uncle) Lore should you wish to delve deeper.
These two hold particular signifigance because 1 is a catalyst and the other is where Galadriel mostly gained her hard earned wisdom from. And incidentally Finrod is my personal favourite out of all the Elves Tolkien wrote about.
And great video! You’re right Gil-Galad is not an elf king he is unapologetically middle age and ugly. He’s also like you said like a bad manager there is nothing magical about him. Same with Celebrimbor what a joke
@@moon-moth1 He is ugly for the role sorry, same for Celebrimbor even though I forget Celebrimbor because the actor did such an amazing job.
As for the age I don't think that's a problem, In LotR a lot of people like Eldron and he's also a middle age guy at that point.
Elrond (not really, but compared with the rest of the actors) and Galadriel are the only good looking elves, that's a big problem for me, but I still think the show is worth watching. Durin, Sauron, Galadriel, Elrond and the Numenoreans are carrying this.
Whenever I see Elrond and Celebrimbor I feel that I'm in a hair spray ad.
He did not change as much as ROP, let alone rewriting Tolkien's lore which is the reason why ppl hate ROP. Also you could say he (Jackson)understood the source material let alone Tolkiens lore, hence the changes. Plus Tolkien never wrote a Telenovela novel but rather a fantasy epic.
That is true, ROP’s telenovela method does make the story seem like it’s not to be taken seriously
Jackson definately changed the Lore lol. The only major lore change in ROP is the timeline and the random assortment of skin colors.
That is completely false.
@@waltonsmith7210 ROP has made major changes to the lore.
@@waltonsmith7210 And about everything else has been changed too. Oh, you are a troll. Sorry. Carry on.
I have never read a book by Tolkien, but even I hate this terrible show.
Maybe you're not a book person, but you'd be doing yourself a great injustice if you never gave them a shot. They're all amazing. Maybe not all for you, but especially the main LoTR volumes are so much fun.
@@ThatSockmonkeyI read them at school, that was back in the 80s.
My number one issue with The Rings of Power is that it doesn't seem to have any sincerity behind it. My second big issue with the show is how they treat my favourite elf Galadriel:
When I was a kid and watched Fellowship of The Ring for the first time - I was in awe over Cate Blanchett's portrayal of this character, she had the look, the commanding and authoritative presence, she came off as being wise and knowledgeable, graceful and yet dangerous. Cate Blanchett did such a good job that she's the only cast member of the movies that I picture every time I read Tolkien's works. I know now that I'm older that Galadriel is the Great Mother archetype, the most powerful of all feminine strengths - a woman can copy male traits and the strengths of manhood, we often call this 'tomboyish' behaviours, but the feminine strength behind the Great Mother archetype cannot be copied by men, and most women do not possess this trait as their core character.
Alas, we get to Rings of Power Galadriel, she has been stripped from her core archetype, an unmatched feminine strength, and was given the stereotypical view of strength that only amateurs would deem to be an improvement - the cheap copy of masculine traits with this new 'girl boss' trope that seemingly thinks that the only way a woman can be strong is if she's a carbon copy of male strength, and yet they neglect the most powerful strength that Galadriel already had, most likely deeming it to be 'outdated.' I can only view the 'girl boss' trope to be a misogynistic view of what strength is, and they parade this notion as if it were some progressive view, whilst simultaneously ignoring a timeless, psychological archetype that is attributed to this character.
I am a big fan of the real Lady Galadriel, and as a 26-year-old Autist who fixates obsessively on archetypal structures and psychical processes, I am deeply disappointed with Amazon's cheap bastardisation.
P.S. Sorry for the essay.
Amazon's ROP seems like the world's most expensive LOTR cosplay. Only the music seems right.
Expensive cosplay that looked cheap
Yep, actual cosplay often looks better (especially in the armour and weapon department).
it's wildly inconsistent with both itself and the lore. the maiar of lord of the rings (saruman, Gandalf, Sauron, the blue wizards) are millenia old spirits with immense power (lesser valar) this nonsense amazon version has them as weak newbies. Gandalf was NOT trained by bombadil. he existed for centuries prior to this in the undying lands with the valar
Yeah I can see that Gandalf (or “Gandalf”) is not portrayed as a super powerful, capable being…🤔
This. As a Maia--a lesser god--Gandalf/Olorin not only existed for centuries prior, but almost certainly played a role in the actual *creation of the world*.
So RoP gets Gandalf wrong on both fronts: he couldn't just casually summon up tornadoes/lightning storms/etc. like a D&D-style spellcaster or Marvel superhero--the Valar placed some strict limits on the Wizards' power, including their human-like bodies--but at the same time he didn't come as a dimwitted man-child needing an education. He had the full *wisdom* of a Maia, but with power limitations. So basically, RoP got Gandalf/the Wizards not just a little wrong, but totally backwards.
It would be interesting to see the RoP producers call out Michaela as racists.
Why, black people can't be racists?
She is right about some things, but not about everything. The Numenoreans look perfectly fine to me, the only problem with them is that Elendil's wife cheated on him both times she got pregnant.
The letter metaphor was so great, especially when I think about how P.J. often played around with direct quotes, giving them to different characters or using them at different points than they were originally said. Or the way some songs made it as dialogue.
RoP made the elves just look like regular people. Gilgalad looks like a Walmart manager. It's so funny.
Even worse, like regular modern people. Even men in the LotR trilogy look more otherworldly than Gil-Galad - at least in the sense that I believe that they don't live down the road from me.
Wow. It's been a while since I've listened to a commentary as detailed, argumented and to the point as this one.
Nicely done. Hope to hear you again.
Thank you! I hope to make more content like this, it is quite fun ☺️
I do not know where people got the idea that Amazon licensed only the Appendices and not the main text of Lord of the Rings. It is obvious that mentions of names like Celeborn in season one, and most recently the appearance of characters superficially resembling Ents, Barrow-wights, and Tom Bombadil, shows that they can use (or abuse) whatever they like from the main text.
Peter Jackson's films remind me of Huck Finn's introduction to his book:
"You don't know about me without you have read a book by the name of The Adventures of Tom Sawyer; but that ain't no matter. That book was made by Mr. Mark Twain, and he told the truth, mainly. There was things which he stretched, but mainly he told the truth. That is nothing. I never seen anybody but lied one time or another, without it was Aunt Polly, or the widow, or maybe Mary. Aunt Polly - Tom's Aunt Polly, she is - and Mary, and the Widow Douglas is all told about in that book, which is mostly a true book, with some stretchers, as I said before."
Yeah, Peter Jackson stretched some things, and occasionally threw in what Huck would call a 'whopper', but mainly he told the truth. It must be remembered that Tolkien wants the readers to believe in his world (while they are reading it), and sometimes described it as 'feigned history'. And that phrase is the key thing here: Tolkien's-and to some extent, Jackson's-fans view The Lord of the Rings as a mostly true, though feigned, history, and expect a dramatization to faithfully portray that history. We mustn't think of it in terms of an "adaptation", as JRRT's writings on the Second Age are a chronicle, not a novel with continuous events, quotable dialogue, and so on. Now, we know that there has never been a historical drama that did not take liberties, often large, with history. Events and characters are combined or simply added, sometimes put out of sequence, and so on. Shakespeare's dialogue for Julius Caesar is almost wholly invented (and not in Latin). Historical drama is not documentary, mostly because history doesn't coöperate with the rules for writing screenplays.
But.
Even in historical dramas, we expect the history to be presented in good faith, not twisted to fit it to the Procrustean bed of some screenwriter's pet project. What Rings of Power gives us is the equivalent of a bizarre movie about the Revolutionary War: everyone expects Plymouth Pilgrims to be in a U.S. historical, and nothing much happened between 1650 and 1750 anyway, so we'll throw them in (we'll use another word if 'Pilgrim' is not acceptable). History doesn't explicitly tell us that Abigail Adams _didn't_ have a secret affair with Benedict Arnold, so we'll put that in for interest. Andrew Jackson is pretty famous, so teenage Andrew Jackson will demonstrate his exceptionally acrobatic martial arts skills in saving his friend, the weak and indecisive George Washington. Betsy Ross and Sally Hemmings are the real ghost-writers of the Declaration of Independence, because Jefferson is too busy with other, um, affairs. The German Hessians will speak English all the time (with a German accent of course), even when only speaking among themselves, and switch to German for emphasis at random times.
TRoP doesn't just take a few liberties with the imagined history-it pretty much ignores it, except for names of people and places. To enjoy it, Tolkien and Jackson fans have to be willing to forgive much, and their imaginations must do the heavy lifting fill in the gaps themselves for TRoP's shoddy storytelling, time and distance absurdities, physical implausibilities, and so on.
Yes I think the show can be enjoyed by latching on to the things the show does well and kind of “forgiving” its short comings
When 'people' say Amazon only has the rights to the LoTR appendices, they mean Amazon did not get the rights to the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales books. These books cover, among other things, the time period from the Amazon show. That is why 90% of what Tolkien wrote about the 2nd age is unusable by Amazon. And that is why they wronlgy add things like Barrow Wights from the 3rd age into the shows 2nd age time period.
In Appendix F of The Return of the King, he explicitly describes Elves as "fair of skin":
Elves has been used to translate both Quendi, ‘the speakers’, the High-elven name of all their kind, and Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the Sindar only). This old word was indeed the only one available, and was once fitted to apply to such memories of this people as Men preserved, or to the makings of Men’s minds not wholly dissimilar. But it has been diminished, and to many it may now suggest fancies either pretty or silly, as unlike to the Quendi of old as are butterflies to the swift falcon - not that any of the Quendi ever possessed wings of the body, as unnatural to them as to Men. They were a race high and beautiful, the older Children of the world, and among them the Eldar were as kings, who now are gone: the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars.
They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin; and their voices had more melodies than any mortal voice that now is heard. They were valiant, but the history of those that returned to Middle-earth in exile was grievous; and though it was in far-off days crossed by the fate of the Fathers, their fate is not that of Men. Their dominion passed long ago, and they dwell now beyond the circles of the world, and do not return.
Thank you 🙏🏽 I do think the elves of ROP do not live up to this discription
"Peter Jackson changed the story though he had the full source material to work with..."
Sorry, but no, this is not the case. He optimized it, but haven't changed the core spirit&world and this is what makes something an adaptation and not a low effort fanfiction.
I still would gladly watch a good fanfic, but ROP is not written very well either. My main problem is that I really don't know what group of peeps it is made for. Any guesses? 😬
Nailed that. Not many people seem to comprehend the difference between PJ's adaption and RoP or even that there is, in fact, a significant difference to begin with.
I thought i explained how there was a difference between PJ and ROP’s execution of Tolkien’s world. If I didn’t explain well enough I will try my best to get such things across in the future. Thank you for your feed back 😊
Thinking it through again, the problem was only as you started with the statement that LOTR was also altered in many aspects. This is technically true but this paralell might trigger some folks. Of course you don't have to navigate on eggshells, but starting with this may cause a sudden "oh, c'mon" reaction. 😅
PJ changed less than 5%.
RoP butchered more than 50%.
@@LemurKrazymore like 90%
So, I've just finished listening thru ALL the unabridged JRR Tolkien masterwork on Audible, including The Silmarillion & Unfinished Tales, as well as the other posthumous scripts which Christopher painstakingly went back, pieced together & released...that being said, Peter Jackson did an ASTOUNDING job of staying true to 90% of Tolkien's original text material. True, the parts with Tom Bombadil & a couple other smaller details were changed (like Sam actually entering Shelob's lair with Frodo, Eowyn's recovery in Gondor's Healer Hall and her interactions with Faramir, & in The Hobbit, a HUGE detail to me missing was the Ravens communicating directly with the Dwarves around The Lonely Mountain, etc)...NOW, that being said...when u compare so many other literary works being adapted into films and how much creative liberties were taken (don't get me started on Anne Rice adaptations 🙄😒), Peter Jackson did indeed stay very loyal to 90% of the LOTR canon...ROP I still find enjoyable however there r def a LOT of discrepancies which r not excusable...my biggest one is Galadriel...at the start of Season 1, I admired her tenacity & determination to follow her intuition over listening to others around her; that matches Lady of the Light Galadriel to a T!! But her quarrelsome confrontational tendencies do not, not quite how they're portrayed in ROP, esp after the first few episodes of Season 1. I'm quite disappointed already, with how ROP Season 2 is turning out; Sauron is not At.All how he's described in Silmarillion!!
All of that aside, I was VERY pleasantly surprised how loyal Peter Jackson remained to LOTR & The Hobbit in his adaptations; he did JRR Tolkien & Tolkien's estate truly proud, given Hollywood's tendency to disgrace literary classics for broader audience appeal & larger box office sales (don't get me STARTED on the Twilight series on that note, either 🙄😒🤦♀️🤢🤮)
Does anyone here know of committed forums for JRR Tolkien's LOTR fans & chats, pls?? Thx ☺️🧝♀️✨️
I think if there were a list of top ten book to movie adaptations of all time, Peter Jackson’s would definitely make that list. Also I did buy a twilight shirt today 😂 now that you mention twilight. I don’t know of any forums, but I know I wanted to discuss or at least be a part of the discussion so that’s why I started making these videos 🤗
Because it's shite. I love your soft-spoken voice, by the way.
Thank you, I always worry that my voice is not pleasing to the ear 🙈
RoP Galadriel is more of a Karen.
Even if you treat this like a stand alone show it's still really bad, no interesting characters, bad script....looks like a 80's soap opera.
Adar is very interesting character, also Sauron.
Yes but I don’t think it would be as bad. Associating a show with Tolkien was just about the worst thing they could have done, because now it has to measure up to Tolkien and it’s falling very short. A stand alone show might actually be digestible. People like soap operas, but I agree with you, soaps are not Tolkien-ian.
This was really good. You nailed all of my issues with this show. Its painful, but i can't look away.
From an audio guy, some completely unsolicited suggestions that you are tr I to take or leave, but i had trouble hearing you a few times. You might need to put your mic a bit closer to your face, or turn the recording volume up about 20% cos sometimes, you can be a little quiet. It can also be boosted in editing software.
Thanks!
Okay, I will give those tips a try 👋
This is such a wonderful video. You hit many of the points as to why this show is so terribly hard to embrace. I totally agree about the elves. Without the ears, you wouldn’t know an elf from a human. Another issue for me the the condensing of thousands of years into months. Perhaps a year? I also appreciate how you argued passionately without being mean spirited. I look forward to more videos!
Thank you! And I agree, the cramming of centuries into one year is undeniably a poor decision 🤔
I wanted to love this show so badly. I love Tolkien books and storytelling. I stopped watching in the first season, at episode 5. It’s just not good for many reason and you hit some of them. For me. It feels like fan faction.
It’s a shame because there is people trying and some high production value.
Good video by the way.
Thank you! The show has lost me with “the kiss” so I won’t be watching season 3. If the show gets cancelled it would be a shame because like you said there are people trying very hard to make the show beautiful and polished
I'm a big fan of the video essay genre and I think you nailed this. It was on point and well-argued. (Also, it may be beside my point, but I agree with you.)
Thank you very much, I hope to do more really soon!
So glad I found your channel. Your explanation of the issues with ROP is the best I've seen of all. Firstly, your not pounding your fist and being hateful -- which so many reviewers of ROP, Star Wars and others are. It's getting old. Secondly, you very articulately and succinctly explain your POV, a POV that makes sense. I look forward to more videos from you. Thanks! 👍 So, yes, it's the common ailment with current entertainment -- don't be original, only do established franchises, and above all, don't really understand what the elements are that make those franchises fan favorites. Oh, and throw money at it so it 'looks good' but is, in fact, marginal to not good. EDIT: Oh, and SUBSCRIBED! :)
Thank you so much! Your comment is very encouraging! I’m glad you liked the video 🤗
Very good points. They spend a lot of money on the rights but really they could change the names and nobody would know it was supposed to be Tolkien. Just some generic fantasy.
I agree with a lot of your points. Somehing else I would add is the costuming is not up to par. I get that Weta probably wasnt available for a seria style show, but there clearly isnt enough work going into the costumes/armor. The elf armor is missing the flair from the lore and lots of "armor" looks cheap. Some you can tell are just shirts with a printed pattern.
Lmao Galadriel is a shorty, indeed she is
Yes, and it’s very noticeable 😁
they even added a story element from the Empire Strikes Back in the last episode of ROP. Its pure insanity.
The most changes Peter Jackson made was to cut off content like Tom Bombadil that really didn't matter to the story. The others where at least not contradicting the books. And honesty, i don't think that the writers were forbidden to read the books. But i always had the impression that they really disliked their source material. Just with the witcher, why making a show of a content you dislike than rather create something new?
Just adding up unnecessary Characters is an abomination. Its like their saying Tolkien sucks at storytelling. People behind the show Hates Tolkien so much.
It takes place in the Second Age, in a time period with countless unnamed characters. To tell a story in this setting requires the invention of new characters.
@@waltonsmith7210 KG didn't complain about "new" characters, but "unnecessary characters". And he is right.
Adar makes no sense and should be removed.
His addition to the story does nothing but fuck it up.
@@waltonsmith7210 Making a new elf, that's fine - giving Isildur a sister that he never had in the source material, that is wrong.
the biggest reason we don't like rings of power , is the fact it`s total trash ! no matter how you look at it , it has no connection to the silmarillion except for names of the characters ! it`s like they never read the book !
Congratulations, Michaela, on a thoughtful contribution to the discussion. FWIW, I was entertained by the Jackson films but also had serious problems with choices that Jackson made which I don't think were made in order to make the characters be antagonistic to Tolkien's work but for purely commercial considerations (For example, The Hobbit would have made a decent one-off picture, but Jackson was committed to the trilogy and so had to pad it almost beyond recognition.) But the real point about Jackson's films is that they kept the overall integrity of the story. The Rings of Power does not. The "showrunners" (pretentious phrase) and writers are creating a world of their own that really has nothing to do at all with LoTR. That is the travesty.
I can give one contemporary example of how to do it right: the Dark Winds series. Yes, they make substantial changes to the Hillerman novel (For example, Leaphorn is stationed at Flagstaff, Chee is already a Navajo policeman, and Bernie comes in further along). But, they retain the tone of the books as well as the respect Hillerman has for the Navajo culture. They have changed Hillerman's constructs without desecrating and discarding them. RoP can make no such claim.
OK, I'm not a published writer but have written short stories for my own satisfaction, and have a pretty good idea of what an actual writer has to do. Here's what neither the "showrunners" (again: pretentious phrase) or "writers" know, understand or even would be able to do if they did know or understand it.
An epic must above all have an overarching purpose and aim. Everything worthy of note in the epic story is in service of that overarching purpose. The story may contain moments that are irrelevant to the overall purpose and aim, but those are few and far between.
This production does not have any such vision. Watch it from the first moment of the first episode (if you are masochistic) and you will never find any sense of the epic as I define it here. Where is all this going? Nowhere that I can detect. What they are producing is a disconnected series of soap opera-like vignettes, none of which have any purpose in telling the overall story. So there is no continuity, and no relationship between any of these vignettes. The only thing these "modern" writers are interested in is sending and pounding us with their DEI messages regardless of the complete lack of verisimilitude anywhere. It's all complete artifice in service not to the Tolkien saga but only in service of their "woke" agenda.
So when critics of the series invoke "The Lore", this is how I understand it. The overall story line has to aim at the end, which has to be the start of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings (i.e., The Hobbit). If it is going anywhere else (and it is, though that "anywhere" is impossible to divine), then it is not only disrespectful of "The Lore" but irrelevant to it. And that's what these people have left us with: a disconnected maze of stories that are irrelevant to each other, with casting that treats Middle Earth as if it were downtown Manhattan.
The hobbit was a definite fumble (it’s a shame, too, because the characters deserved to be as renowned as the ones in the LOTR trilogy).
I agree that the plot of ROP meanders A LOT. You know I was actually interested in Adar’s plot but after a whole season it seems the show has just led him in a circle until he could launch his assault on Eregion. That seems incredibly wasteful to me. And look what they’ve done with Arondir. His task changes every episode as if the show is saying “he can be here, and here, and here, then here, until we get to the big battle)
The most insulting part is the show does this as if no one will notice 🤔
and number 4; they explain and show things that should be unknown and hidden. capital offense in fantasy. I mean, wasting time showing us 'how Gandalf got his staff'? Who gives a shit? considering who and what he is, it should be plenty to know he HAS one.
Even the Hobbit Trilogy is Masterpiece compared to the Rings of Power. The Hobbit Trilogy isn't amazing, but it has way more respect to the source material and tries to tell a story...
The writing is so ultra bad. It’s not even entertaining bad. It’s not even cringe it’s just boring as hell. “Evil that lives only to spread malice!” I mean doesn’t evil MEAN malice 🤪
As per your comparison of the two versions of Galadriel, at the time of Rings of Power she should be married with a couple of grown kids and starting Lothlorien. They basically demoted and downgraded Galadriel for the series.
Right audio channel has lower volume than left audio channel, probably due to imperfect contact of the microphone's jack (connector) or a similar technical issue.
Thanks for the heads up!
It has nothing to do with it. It has to do with that Galadriel is banished to middle earth. She can't go home.
To be fair, there are plenty of us who have major issues with the PJ movies. The real difference is that the movies still told a good story that made sense. In Rings of Power the story is stupid, the acting is pretty bad generally, the fight scenes are so bad they make Power Rangers fights look realistic in comparison, and the dialog is some of the cringiest ever recorded.
I don’t hate it at all, it’s intriguing… doesn’t all have to be killing.
Great video!
i agree its not compatible with the original work. cant see how Tolkien fans made this.
Great respect to your video, except... how do you quantify "amount being changed"? I prefer the books to Jackson's work, but I would prefer being kicked in the head and chest to Rings Of Power. To equate Jackson's work to RoP...?
> because you can tell how many people are working very hard on this show like especially the actors and it's all going to be for nothing
I don't mean to be rude, but, speaking as a Russian/German/Ukrainian living in Australia, there are a lot of people working very hard on the Russian/Ukrainian war. Or, say, the Israel/Gaza war. Just because there are a lot of people working on it does NOT MEAN IT'S SOMETHING THAT OUGHT TO BE WORKED ON.
Peter Jackson changed many many things, and as a teen I disliked them back then (well, not all the changes, for example no Tom Bombadil was the right choice), but, no, he did not change just as many things as these show runners are changing.
But, it doesn't really matter, the problem with the show is not that is not a close adaptation. It's the lack of a decent script. Do they even let the writers do their job or are all the plots decided in a small executive office?
There’s no way they have actually spent a billion $ on this show. The writing is terrible, it’s cast with 3rd rate actors. This show is a $ laundering scheme or something
that makes more sense than the excuses the handful of fans of RoP make trying to defend the mess
The Numenorean story has been the worst thing about it
I get the merging of the timeline( although it's hard to bear)
I’m a huge Tolkien fan. I enjoy the Rings of Power. 🤷🏼♂️
For real? Not attacking. I want to know what you like about the show?
You like the characters? The visuals? The story? Lore? Do you like the harfoot and stranger storyline?
@@lukeluke333lukeluke the main thing I like is just enjoying time in Middle earth seeing so much legendary stuff I thought I’d never see on screen…everything is so beautifully rendered and most of it is well-designed.
I like the warrior Galadriel character. It’s an aspect of her character nobody ever thinks about… that she had to take part in fighting for the people of middle earth…she wasn’t always just a shiny elf in the woods.
I like the orc stories, I like a lot of the new characters.
I think overall the storytelling is a bit weak…but not any worse than most other on-screen fantasy/sci-fi.
I do NOT like the harfoot / stranger story. But only because so far it’s really boring. The characters are OK, but they’re not doing much, and as yet I do not understand their peril at all.
Adar and Arondir are fine conceptually. I root for them the most, but the show has to do the heavy lifting and give them good story lines. These original characters are the best characters of the show.
I look forward to learning more about Galadriel as i continue reading the trilogy
You're probably not a huge Tolkien fan. It's okay.
@@angobando why do you say so?
Oh, so you know something that they don't, really? And if these people knew what you know, they wouldn't do what they do?
Hint: they know and they do it on purpose.
Rings of Power series was doomed before they even started filming it. When you check the interviews with creators more often than not you find out arrogance meets ignorance combo.
I'm currently watching Season 2 (not bothering with season 1 because it's too hard to get through). I'm trying not to watch it through a Tolkien lense, so to speak. But even so, I still don't like it. The story reminds me of my writing when I have no idea what I'm doing or when I've lost interest in my own story. It has no soul, the characters aren't believable, and it's just bad storytelling.
Awww don’t put down on your writing 🙈 But you know, the writing is poor but made the poorer by associating it with Tolkien who was a master at his craft. But even if someone is not master of their craft (yet) I bet their work is at least palatable when it stands on its own two feet. It’s a shame Amazon did try to present us with an original ip, I’m confident a show they didn’t try to copy would get much better ratings.
@@Nerdmaid lol thanks. Yes I've been approaching it as an original story and it makes it slightly more tolerable to watch (despite the over borrowing of quotes and shots from the books or PJ films.)
I honestly don't like the show simply because has nothing to do with anything Tolkien wrote and the fact that they lied about reading parts of the parts of the material that was given to them, this show is nothing more than a cash grab
Solo los delicaditos odian la serie.
They don't, they are watching it, its a greats show.
Keep saying that.
this is more of a love story then fantasy/adventure. women writers. Galadriel is just ridiculous in so many ways. the characters and directing is garbage
women writers ruining Galadriel. the irony.
great facts
I'm a fan and I'm loving the RoP series. Just re-watched series 1 before starting series 2 and it's a phenomenal production. Series 2 so far is even better. I'm hooked.
You are totally wrong. the main problem is not the lore or violation of the lore. if you make a great show people will look past violation of the lore. the abysmal writing is the main problem. and its just a boring show.
I agree but adherence to the lore is necessary also if they want to use the world Tolkien created. But the writing is just terrible lets agree to that.
Thank you both for responding. Sooo many other TH-camrs actually talked about how the writing was bad. I did want my list of reasons to be some what unique ☺️
I don't feel sorry for the actors, extras and all the background workers. Everyone is getting paid.
I guess tolkien would have liked people discussing and enjoying his works. Probably he him self was never a stuck up "muh canon" elitist, as he often wrote things in a way for you to interpret in a way you can relate to it yourself. We would all do good if we just enjoyed things and learned more about tolkiens world. Christopher Tolkien also did not like the Peter Jackson Movies everybody praises. He did not even want them to be made. Afaik his opinion basically can be shortened to "It's too much hollywood".
So saying Tolkien fans will hate this or that is bs, sorry tolkien would probably be all about enjoying his world. Even his books are written by persons out of his world and are stories written from their eyes. This alone implies that even they are not always the absolute "truth" as a story told always has influences of his writer.
Also even implying one is not a "true" tolkien fan if you not hate this or that is a childish and elitist way to say "I'm a better fan because I hate on RoP".
I do agree about the elves, but don't agree with Galadriel, Morfydd Clark does a very good job. I disagree about the Numenoreans, they look imposing enough compared to the people of Mordor.
As for likeable characters, there are plenty of likeable characters.
Why do you use “they” while it’s “you”.
Need to up the volume, dear. Cant hear ya.
I'm very much a Tolkien fan, and have been all my life. I have a lot of criticisms of Rings of Power, but on the whole I think it stays considerably more respectful and true to Tolkien's moral philosophy than than Jackson's movies. I'm afraid to say that for most criticisms I hear of the new show, I suspect the critiques come from a place of not knowing Tolkien well enough.
For example, you say Galadriel should be depicted as royalty, not a warrior -- but Tolkien tells us she was one of the greatest warriors of all the elves. Her very name itself comes from how she wore her hair (accurately depicted in certain Rings of Power scenes) as she compete (and won) in athletic contests against male elves. In this period of her life, Tolkien describes Galadriel as being in her "Amazon warrior" phase.
To delve a little deeper, Galadriel certainly had wisdom, but she also rebelled against the Valar (one of the only elf women to stand tall, as Tolkien tells us, with the followers of Feanor who decided to go to Middle Earth). When her father came to his senses, repented, and turned back, Galadriel carried on and continued leading the march through the northern wastes even after being abandoned by Feanor. Why? Tolkien tells us it was because she harbored ambitions to rules kingdoms of her own will. This is related to one of my critiques of the show -- Galadriel's motivations seem to have been replaced somewhat by the general Noldor motivations, but I don't have an issue with her being blinded by strong faulty ambitions at this stage.
You talk about how Jackson got the elves right, but he changed their presentation rather drastically, to comport with modern sensibilities of "serious," "ethereal," and "wise." Tolkien's elves were wise, powerful, and silly, both more ethereal and more down-to-earth than you'd expect of a man, full of high-minded far-seeing advice and dark twisted flaws. I remember being so disappointed with the whole creepiness of Lothlorien and Galadriel when I first saw those movies, and my opinion has only improved a little over the years.
Finally, I'll briefly point out that Jackson's depiction of evil and what drives characters to become evil is shallow and/or entirely different from Tolkien's. In this regard, Rings of Power is not only providing a better depiction, it's explicitly engaging with Tolkien's philosophy and world-building in this regard. It remains to be seen whether it keeps this up.
Give the Silmarillion another read, and give the show another chance. It's got plenty of flaws, but there is a great deal of value in there and if nothing else the showrunners drop nonstop easter eggs showing the degree to which they really do understand Tolkien and his world, however much they are changing.
I did appreciate that you noted how much Jackson changed in his films -- many critics of RoP do not understand or recognize this. And some of Jackson's changes I thoroughly approve of in the context of adaptation. But overall I feel like the more deep the possible resonance with Tolkien, the more Jackson failed.
The show runners do not understand or respect Tolkien. Sauron being a thing of slime, Elrond not considered an elf-lord, Galadriel a short angry woman who argues often and shows no signs of wisdom...And for crying out loud orcs having a family life???
This is so stupid. Peter Jackson never made such mistakes. Not even close.
You say that ROP follows Tolkien's moral philosophy? Why then did they include so much rubbish? Orcs were monsters more or less totally dependent on their masters (although Shagrat and Gorbag had dreams of setting up their own base- its unlikely that they could control their subordinates for an extended period).
You also say that theyve out in Easter Eggs. But that is only passing and often times a caricature of what Tolkien wrote.
I suspect you are being paid to write this because ROP totally misses the mark. The script is horrendous.
@@user-ui3dv5ek7l I am just a nobody Tolkien nerd. Nobody could possibly pay me enough to motivate me to write this, and I wouldn't write it if I didn't believe it was true. With the state of the internet these days, I do nonetheless understand your suspicion.
If you'll allow me what I hope to be a respectful response:
"Sauron being a thing of slime."
That visual representation was certainly "a decision," as they say. I don't think Tolkien describes the long process by which Sauron was able to regain physical form in the third age, but given his general imagery, I would have preferred ROP to depict a form of shadow, not slime. Perhaps a shadow that slowly took form into something like a shadow-slime thing, before finally taking human form once more. But it was a neat idea to have him regain form from his blood that spilled. That said, however much I might change or tweak this, I don't see it as being fundamentally counter to any of Tolkien's ideas. Perhaps they could have just never quite shown the process, but only hinted at it -- that might have been better.
"Elrond not considered an elf-lord."
I don't know exactly what constitutes an "elf-lord," but in the second age Elrond was a herald of Gil-galad. He hasn't yet founded Rivendell, after which point I'm sure he would be considered an elf-lord. But perhaps I'm missing the forest for the trees and not understanding your point.
"Galadriel a short angry woman who argues often and shows no signs of wisdom"
You got me on "short." I remember being frustrated with Jackson's films when Boromir didn't have dark hair. As for the argumentativeness, I'm waiting to see how they develop her character further. In her youth she must have had some elements of brazenness and chutzpah based off of Tolkien's depiction, but it's certainly a surprise to me to see how hyperfocused their depiction is, and lacking in visible introspection. That said, I cannot imagine that the showrunners do not have a plan for character growth that takes her from where she is now to where we know she must be by the end of the second age where the show will wrap up. Time will tell! As for no signs of wisdom, I definitely disagree there. She has her moments.
"And for crying out loud orcs having a family life"
To be clear, they haven't really shown family life so much as an orc father greeting an orc mother. I was pissed when Jackson showed half-orc half-humans being born fully formed out of a slime pit. Tolkien wrestled with the nature of orcs, and so did his elves. Morgoth sometimes released the very first bent and twisted elves back into the wild, where they returned to their elvish roots and the elves struggled with how to reincorporate them into society. Obviously, by this time after millennia of breeding, this is unthinkable -- but they remain twisted shadows of elves. And at this period in the history of Middle-Earth, with Morgoth dead and Sauron not yet dominating their wills once more, would they not start recreating a pale shadow of civilization? Forget the show for a moment: in Tolkien's own stories, how would orc babies even survive without some kind of care?
I will also note that I only took time to comment here because @Nerdmaid's video, where I agree and disagree both, was thoughtful. Most of the videos out there discussing ROP seem to me just ragebait trash designed to grow a channel.
The slime part was bad but that he ate the person on the wagon and turned into Halbrand was possibly even worse.
Glorfindel was considered an elf-lord but he still had a lower rank than Elrond.
That Boromir did not have dark hair is of lesser importance but still not according to Tolkien.
Orcs most likely did not raise their own children. They were probably separated from their parents to prevent any bond forming between them. Regardless Tolkien never made the orcs likeable. They were bred for war and as a force of slave labour.
@@user-ui3dv5ek7l Regarding Halbrand, worse how? I don't see a problem off the top of my head, but that doesn't mean anything. I could be convinced.
Glorfindel had been a lord of Gondolin, died, and later returned to Middle-Earth (source: The Peoples of Middle-Earth). And Elrond was Lord of Rivendell by the time you are referencing. Again, at the time the show is set, Tolkien has Elrond serving under Gil-galad. Regardless -- I am more interested in why this is one of your main points, so I'll just grant for the sake of argument that Elrond ought to bear the title of "lord" at this stage. What are the wider implications to the story, that make this important?
You're right about Boromir. I said it slightly tongue-in-cheek. It annoyed me very slightly, but mainly because Jackson took such a "historical documentary" approach to his adaptation (which, when it works, works so beautifully). For Rings of Power I consider the adaptation closer to how I consider many Shakespearean productions: sometimes they cast great actors for certain roles, even if the physical characteristics of the actor don't make sense in-world. I think it's a valid choice either way, so long as those physical characteristics are merely setting-appropriate rather than crucial to the characters and the plot.
I think your hypothesis is entirely plausible, especially during any time when the orcs lived under the domination of Morgoth or Sauron. Similarly, the show's hypothesis that without such domination they might try rearing their own children seems to me also plausible. Both are speculative. But in general, the longer Tolkien developed his world, the more his views on orc's nature and origin evolved and the more he grappled with their moral implications. I appreciate that the show is incorporating Tolkien's more nuanced ideas in this period of the orc's history (e.g., Adar's asking Galadriel whether they are not also children of Iluvatar). I hope that by the end of the show, with Sauron wielding the One, they will show the impact this had on the orcs and how their wills became once more fully enslaved and subsumed. I certainly don't see the show in any way presenting the orcs as "likable." They are evil yet tragic.
I'm a fan since 1998, and I'm enjoying ROP! Brings some hope after Peter Jackson made whatever he did.
The show did lose me with “the kiss” but I was enjoying it up until then. I hope Arondir lives. As I understand Arondir and Andar are both original characters, and imo they are the most intriguing so I was enjoying their development the most
I love this show, and I love the books and I love movies. You don’t speak for all the LOTR fans!
I love it, idiots hate it
Some Tolkien fans hate the show. Others dont. Some Tolkien fans who hate it dont actually seem to know that much about Tolkien. Why are you speaking for Tolkien fans? Also Galadriel could very well have been different in the Second Age. Its thousands of years in the past.
I have read nearly everything the Tolkien Estate has published. RoP is closer to fan fiction than interpretation of the original work. The names and places are the same but the characters have no resemblance to the originals. Tolkien wrote chapters on Galadriel. Amazon had plenty of source material for her. The character in RoP whose name is spelled Galadriel isn’t even close. Much less the absolute butchering of the First Age material. She’s married for the love of Pete. What really chaps me is Amazon could have made both fans like me who wanted to see the story Tolkien laid out brought to life and those who had never opened a single book very happy and made twice as much. Could have made Game of Thrones look like a pretender. They would have doubled their audience for less money.
A lot of Tolkien fans are just profoundly disappointed.
your video analysis is awesome. You weirdly talk like you were scared to wake up a baby. Anchor your voice to your body, breath from the belly, find the vibration in your throat that will resonate the more naturally to you, fill the room, hence capture your audience. And it will be more easy to play with your voice like the instrument it is: convey emotion, humour or give emphasis to what you say.
Your voice is very sweet as is, don't get me wrong, if you'd work on it a little, you could give it more layers, more depth
please send this to RoP Galadriel, she lowered her voice to sound authoritative, but ends up strained and jarring
Hey thanks for this advice !! 😃
Dude, I don't know what you're talking about.I've read the books and just because they changed a bunch of stuff 4 t v does not make it bad like you guys are all just flipping out for no reason like get over yourselves
Um, hi there 😀 I do like the show, there is no flipping out on my part🤗 the video is more or less saying “okay even though I myself like the show, I also get why a die-hard Tolkien fan may dislike the show”
Fk the fans... Its a nirmally good show.. it has millions of views.. you dont like it.. dont watch it.. they didnt follow your holly book.. so what.. the writer died and got paid to shut up in his grave 😅
The show is terrible and didn't make up it's budget in money because it was so overproduced. It failed as a business project and as an art piece. The only reason it's still going is that if they ended it, people would get fired for failing at their jobs.
Not all Tolkien fans hate Rings of Power. I set myself as an example of that.
I do like to give credit where it is due (you’ll notice in my review videos). When I watch the show, I’m watching as a fan and there are things I like. I understand the complaints of others, but I myself am still going to enjoy the show.
These "hate" videos are so stupid. Keep making video of things you don't like and spread the hate.. it is exactly what this world needs, great job..
In the meanwhile, me and the other millions of people who love rings of power will go enjoying the show ;) bye have fun
Are you getting paid to write this? There was no hate in her message simply stating her views.
@@user-ui3dv5ek7l I doubt a shallow, aggressive kid that can't take people disliking their favorite shitpile would be worth paying even a single cent. Sometimes people have no clue or taste. That's just how it is.
I disagree that my video is a “hate” video. I invite you to look at my episode reviews for better evidence of this.
And why shouldn't we discuss our displeasure? If you see something you don't like, or someone voices an opinion you disagree with, do you remain silent for fear of spreading more hate? Obviously not, or you wouldn't have posted this comment in the first place.
Also, you should seek help. Having millions of imaginary friends is not generally considered a sign of strong mental health.
if this series have so much of a fan base, why are so few actually watching it (according to the firms who actually measure such) and adverts selling ever cheaper and that Bezos reportedly is unhappy about costs/popularity to the point of considering cutting his losses by cancellation?
well said and great video