One of the key takeaways from "The Monsters Know What They're Doing" by Keith Ammann is the simple but profound observation that most creatures want to survive. Even though it was written with D&D in mind, the general principle holds true for virtually any TTRPG. If it's not a mindless undead, a lifeless construct, a fanatical zealot, or someone facing a fate worse than death for failure, enemies and hostile creatures should attempt to flee when they're seriously wounded.
Great topic I think the ‘problem’ of players only getting XP for being murder hobos is a problem with the GM not the game. Historically much older games award xp for winning combat. Modern games like PF2e award XP for overcoming challenges. This is specifically seen in hazards and traps. PF2e rules do not require that creatures must to be killed to earn XP. The XP is awarded based on level of the creatures involved in the encounter. GMs who only grant XP for killing creatures will end up with a game full of murder hobos. This past weekend while running Abomination Vaults for my group they did not engage in combat with any of the encounters. All of them could have been ended with combat but they approached them in a way that lead to peaceful resolutions. I did not roll a single die the entire session, and they earned full XP. I let my players roll the secret checks.
@@ZubinMadon that system for rewarding xp promoted that stule of play where gold was king. If there is no gold to be hand there is no reason for a pc do anything. I really like PF2’s method of rewarding encounter resolution no matter how it is resolved. It opens the door for all methods of coming to resolution
I feel like this needs to be a session 0 thing. There has to be a level of trust between players and GM before they will leave anything alive. Players need to know that they wont be penalized for it.
I think this is a two-sided coin. while players are often like this, so are many hosts. And the hosts (GMs, DMs, whatever) are often unaware they're doing it. Is every enemy combatant willing to fight the party to the death? is every NPC an enemy combatant?
Hey Don. Great video as always. Sorry for an off-topic question, but do you know when we can expect archives of nethys to be updated with the remaster content? I know they’ve been having challenges with being short-staffed, etc, but it’s been a while since any update has been given as far as I can see.
XP system that ONLY rewards combat encourages killing. Pathfinder 2e grants XP for over coming encounters not only for winning combat encounters. If you can overcome an encounter with monsters without combat you still get full xp. Last session my group did not fight anyone and overcame every encounter they ran into
@@craigjones7343 which is fine for RP focused campaigns, but my group is old school. Personally, I would get bored doing nothing but talking , hiding or avoiding monsters.
Your character doesn't need to be a champion to be averse to killing everybody they encounter. Many pc's are the aggressor in a fight, other times opponents are just obsticles to a larger goal. One of the common problems I see is that killing the "monster" is the easiest or only option from the adventure/GM. PS: I think you hit it on the head when you compare murder hoboing with video games but I think that's one of the main reasons why ttrpg's are often better than video games.
One of the key takeaways from "The Monsters Know What They're Doing" by Keith Ammann is the simple but profound observation that most creatures want to survive. Even though it was written with D&D in mind, the general principle holds true for virtually any TTRPG. If it's not a mindless undead, a lifeless construct, a fanatical zealot, or someone facing a fate worse than death for failure, enemies and hostile creatures should attempt to flee when they're seriously wounded.
That's a pretty good point that's easy to forget!
The first three quoted words are his bolg and the About page is where to start. Thanks for the fantastic suggestion.
Great topic
I think the ‘problem’ of players only getting XP for being murder hobos is a problem with the GM not the game. Historically much older games award xp for winning combat. Modern games like PF2e award XP for overcoming challenges. This is specifically seen in hazards and traps. PF2e rules do not require that creatures must to be killed to earn XP. The XP is awarded based on level of the creatures involved in the encounter. GMs who only grant XP for killing creatures will end up with a game full of murder hobos.
This past weekend while running Abomination Vaults for my group they did not engage in combat with any of the encounters. All of them could have been ended with combat but they approached them in a way that lead to peaceful resolutions. I did not roll a single die the entire session, and they earned full XP. I let my players roll the secret checks.
I think that's a good way to go to give the XP for the encounter whether the players 'finish' off the creatures or not!
Don
OD&D used to give xp for gold and nothing else. Stealing and sneaking was often far better than fighting.
@@ZubinMadon that system for rewarding xp promoted that stule of play where gold was king. If there is no gold to be hand there is no reason for a pc do anything. I really like PF2’s method of rewarding encounter resolution no matter how it is resolved. It opens the door for all methods of coming to resolution
I only give my party milestone experience if they conplete quests.
I feel like this needs to be a session 0 thing. There has to be a level of trust between players and GM before they will leave anything alive. Players need to know that they wont be penalized for it.
I definitely agree! Session 0 is such an important session to me (at least in my mind) !
Don
I think this is a two-sided coin. while players are often like this, so are many hosts. And the hosts (GMs, DMs, whatever) are often unaware they're doing it. Is every enemy combatant willing to fight the party to the death? is every NPC an enemy combatant?
Thanks for the comment!
I agree and it just might not fit the character as well. I thought it was an interesting thought.
Don
Hey Don. Great video as always. Sorry for an off-topic question, but do you know when we can expect archives of nethys to be updated with the remaster content? I know they’ve been having challenges with being short-staffed, etc, but it’s been a while since any update has been given as far as I can see.
I wish I did but unfortunately no there was an update 8 days ago here:
www.patreon.com/posts/97789538?
Don
Just throw a pokéball at them. Gotta catch ‘em all!
Lol... No notes 😁!
XP driven systems encourage killing, but I agree that there should be consequences for being an out of control murder hobo.
XP system that ONLY rewards combat encourages killing. Pathfinder 2e grants XP for over coming encounters not only for winning combat encounters. If you can overcome an encounter with monsters without combat you still get full xp.
Last session my group did not fight anyone and overcame every encounter they ran into
@@craigjones7343 which is fine for RP focused campaigns, but my group is old school. Personally, I would get bored doing nothing but talking , hiding or avoiding monsters.
@@beancounter2185that is exactly my point. That is a choice you and your group has made and is not a requirement of earning XP like you stated.
It just an option and sometimes you might need to be careful with a champion in the party!
Your character doesn't need to be a champion to be averse to killing everybody they encounter. Many pc's are the aggressor in a fight, other times opponents are just obsticles to a larger goal. One of the common problems I see is that killing the "monster" is the easiest or only option from the adventure/GM. PS: I think you hit it on the head when you compare murder hoboing with video games but I think that's one of the main reasons why ttrpg's are often better than video games.