I appreciate you taking the time to explain the difference between open and closed . I hung batts like r-11 to r-38, kraft & unfaced, poly, flame spread, etc. then our company went to spray foam insulation, but I was trained poorly bc the new guys just wanted to get the job done. I no longer work there, but I found out they made serious mistakes on the job that got them into a lot of lawsuits.
Thanks for the video. The best I watched so far! Can I ask a couple questions? First, some people warned me that the closed cell foam can hinder the expansion and retraction of the wooden ceiling structure possibly damaging it. Is that true? Second, do you recommend a vapor barrier or chamber on a wooden ceiling before applying the foam? Thank you so much!
I live in the south and have an older house with ridge vents and side drafts exits. Do those vents stay there, I heard the house has to breathe? And can you leave in the blown in insulation, since you only spray the roof?
I am looking for different information: I am looking for a picture of the can of spray foam on the shelf at Menads, Lowes, Home Depot, Ace Hardware, etc. that says >>> this can of spray foam is open cell >>>> this can of spray foam is closed cell. What I am thinking, or finding, is that the low-expanding type that they sell for window and door frame is probably Closed Cell. They claim it will not bow the frame of the window or door, so it will still open and close easy. They say it only expands up to 1 inch layer. On the other hand, the one they advertize as Gap Filler that expands 3 inches or more is probably Open Cell.
I have built a shop that is 20x28 and two stories. Unheated garage below, heated shop above. The shop is insulated with fiberglass. I want to insulate the floor of the shop, which is the ceiling of the garage with closed cell foam to provide a vapor barrier and rigidity. The floor joists are 9 1/2" TJI's 20" long. I was going to install a row of solid bridging when I thought that I would be insulating with fiberglass, but now wonder if it is needed with the additional structural support from the closed cell. I also wonder if the bridging/blocking would take away from the structural integrity of the foam by preventing a continuous application of foam. The floor is pretty stiff with only a little spring to it, but any improvement would be welcome. Thank you for reading my ramblings', and I look forward to your response. Thank you, Charlie
what is your take on this study? The largest factor that can affect the insulation's performance is moisture. Usually insulation is expected to keep something warmer or colder than the other side of the insulation. This temperature differential (TD) causes, in many cases, a dew point to form inside the insulation. Once the dew point is reached, moisture is trapped. As water has a much lower R-value than insulation, the water reduces the R-value of the insulation. The more water resistance the insulation has, the better the insulation performs in high TD situations. Since walk-in coolers and freezers are high TD applications, sometimes 110º F on the outside and -20º F on the inside, the higher the moisture resistance of the insulation, the better. When looking at the water vapor permeance of the different foams, it is found that polyurethane allows more water vapor permeance and extruded polystyrene the least. Since water lowers the R-value of insulation, extruded polystyrene retains its R-value better than polyurethane. In the preceding graph, polyurethane loses over 75% of it's R-value in five years and extruded polystyrene loses only 25% of its R-value. Therefore, extruded polystyrene's performance, in actual walk-in conditions when moisture is considered, is over three times as good as polyurethane. References U.S. Cooler Company 401 Delaware St. Quincy, IL 62301 800.521.2665 U.S. Cooler Walk-ins Reference 1 Owens Corning Internal Study Owens Corning One Owens Corning Parkway Toledo, OH 43659 1.800.438.7465 Owens Corning Website Reference 2 U.S. Army Corps of Engineer's (CRREL) test data. "Wetting of Polystyrene and Urethane Roof Insulation in the Laboratory and on a Protected Membrane Roof." Wayne Tobiasson, Alan Greatorex, and Doris Van Pelt; Cold Regions Research and Engineering Laboratory, Hanover, NH 1987. Reference 3 U.S. Army Corps of Engineer's (CRREL) test data. "New Wetting Curves for Common Roof Installations," by Wayne Toblasson, Alan Greatorex, and Doris Van Pelt; Cold Regions Research and Engineering Laboratory, Hanover, NH 1991.
I live in eastern Iowa I'm about to install the spray cell foam insulation. Do I have to use the closed cell foam because of the the winter in Iowa is too cold. Will the spray cell foam insulation affect my house value and I heard a lot of people talking. I probably can't sell my house if the buyer find out I had the space cell foam insulation installed, is it true?
Hi and thanks for this great video! I live in Europe, in a 4 season climate country, where you can get 100F in the summer and -60F in the winter with abundant snowfalls. What would you recommend for a container home building (shipping metal container) where there are no cost concerns since I’m quite limited on space? My only concern is the condensation from inside! Thanks a lot!
Shipping container home = limited indoor space. Use external insulation, XPS or EPS, not polyiso as it loses its R value at low temperature. I believe they make trapezoid shaped foam that fit the valleys in the shipping container walls. Or, fill in the valleys with closed cell spray foam and top it off with XPS or EPS foam board. You would need to cover the exterior foam with siding as UV light destroys it. On the interior valleys, use bolts that go to the outside for attaching your siding. Fill interior valleys with CC spray foam. Maybe this defeats the industrial look you may want, but given that deep cold, those metal walls should not be exposed.
Hello, my name is Mario and I don't know what foam to use to fill a hot tub inflatable instead of air so it will be a closed chamber to be filled with foam.please can you advise me what foam would be best for this task high density and is able to cure in closed chamber thankyou
Great video. Thanks for the information. I'm looking to insulate a couple of 'vaulted' rooms in our home, that are easy to make isolated, due to the lay out of the rooms and roof rafters. I am thinking closed cell, because the rafters are 2x4. The home was built in the 50s. Also I am thinking about eliminating the vent baffles so the foam can be sprayed right on the roof sheeting, with no ventilation, and we get the maximum depth. The home is in CA..... any thoughts? Thanks again.
Hi liked your video . I live in SE North Carolina and have a new metal garage and want to spray foam it. I'm thinking close cell in the ceiling and sides.Please tell the negatives if any using the close cell foam...Thank You..Chris
Hey Chris! There are virtually no negatives to using closed cell on metal. The only concern is whether the builder will void the warranty on the tin if it has to be replaced. Easy solution is to spray onto housewrap between metal and foam.
Thank you I’m building a shed/workshop in Ontario Canada. Same weather as Chicago I would guess. Hot summers cold winters. Looking for the best way to insulate for comfort. Window a/c and base board heat . 10x16’ gravel base with silver bubble wrap between floor joist and subfloor. House wrap. So my questions… If I do 2” closed cell insulation walls and ceiling do I still need gable vents and soffit vents. Do I still want to do vapour barrier? Thank you kindly for your time, knowledge and skill. Much appreciated
What would you use if the low temperature was 65°f and the high was 105°f but most the time 75°f to about 85°f on the out side and wanting to have ac and The house is made of concrete walls and no insulation?
Hello, I am remodeling my house I live in Rensselaer, Indiana. I have used a closed cell in one of my rooms and very costly. Should I stay with that or can I go to open cell?
@lighthouse is there an issue spray foaming on bricks of an old house... Something to do with the mortar crumbling due to freezing in the winter and not have the heat from the house?
I am not the expert here, but I think the closed cell does not expand a lot, but it forms a harder bond and seal. So if it was my shipping container house, which is a thick metal wall, I would spray a layer of closed cell on the metal wall - which will end up giving you about a 1 inch thick layer of foam that will eliminate touching the metal and it will stop the feeling of hot metal in the sun or cold metal at night. Then to make your space inside have a more constant temperature you will need a thicker layer that will prevent the air temperature outside from influencing the temperature inside. So then I would spray layers of open cell on top of the base layer of closed cell. Because the closed cell layer is only 1 inch thick. The open cell is going to expand to about 3 inches. Then you can add more open cell layers to make your wall thicker. You can add a closed cell layer at the end which will close it off better and then the whole layer will mimic a closed cell layer even though it is open cell sandwiched in between 2 layers of closed cell. You will have to wait at least 1 day in between layers for the foam to dry and harden, or the new layer will sort of melt the old layer and make it go away some. A lot of times people build a 2x4 wooden wall and put plastic sheet on there. Then spray the foam on the plastic. It expands and they spray more layers. And when they get to spraying the last layer they cover it with another sheet of plastic stapled to the 2x4 wall. So you end up with a 2x4 wall with plastic on the outside and filled with foam on the inside. They run the wiring an plumbing in the 2x4s before spraying most of the time. Or they cut through the foam and drill the wood to add it later. and maybe touch up and seal areas. the draw back of having 2x4 walls inside your shipping container house is it is going to make your living space smaller inside the container.
I like that idea about hybriding the Closed with the Open. We are probably a zone 9 climate according to the California map I looked at. Half the house is stucco and the other half is vinyl siding. We were thinking or the stucco cost effective wise the hybriding of closed and open may work. Your thoughts? For the Vinyl we can't tackle from the outside, so we were thinking of just the open cell. Your thoughts? BTW, great video I learned a lot.
Hello, I am a building scientist and I engineer wall and ceiling enclosures. You only need two to two and a half inches of closed cell foam to effectively insulate your home from a scientific standpoint. Your local building codes may say otherwise. It’s really unfortunate local codes and inspectors haven’t dropped R value from their certification method as R value is a product of the fiberglass and wool insulation industry. Unfortunately we often have to overfill our wall cavities at a great expense to the home owner or builder just to meet codes. To the point of diminishing return. Also, I’d be careful with mixing the two as open cell is like a sponge and will hold moisture inside of it and could develop mold issues. If you are in a coastal area with moisture in the air, I’d stick to closed cell foam. If you are forced to hit a specific “r value” that two inches of closed cell doesn’t provide, I’d only recommend mineral wool batting (not fiberglass) along with half an inch of closed cell in your wall cavities if they are 2x4 construction, if they are 2x6 construction I’d go with the full 2 inches of closed cell plus Rockwool.
Closed cell can be used in both cold and warm climates. It forms it's own vapor barrier. Open cell is usually accepted in warm climates, where wall R-value requirements are lower. Open cell foam requires a vapor barrier installation. Whenever a vapor barrier is installed, it must always be installed on the warm side of the insulation to prevent condensation forming in the insulation.
in an existing wall would open cell be better to inject into cavity vs closed cell softer when cured vs hard? . i am concerned that the closed cell will break the drywall. what about air gap sealing is open cell exceptable vs not having any at all?
I live in Chicago and want to insulate my attic, not the floor, but the underside of the roof to slow the melting of snow (I have a furnace in the attic which causes melting and giant icicles). Closed or open cell?
I live close to the southern border in Texas. Pretty Close to Laredo Texas. Please guide me in terms of what foam I should use. Temperatures often reach +110 degree Fahrenheit in the summer. I want to be COLD in my tiny home. What should I use for insulation? Remember I don't want to go to sleep sweating. Don't worry about budget, any suggestion would be much obliged.
If cost is no concern, closed cell is king. 4-5” closed cell is walk-in freezer performance. I live in McAllen and after much research I’ve decided that closed cell is the direction I’m gonna go for my attic.
You are going to have a lot of problems in the future as both types of foam get exposed to moisture. They both will absorb water over time, do not have to be submerged. You are going to have mold and rot issues. Need too be using waterproof materials.
I DESPISE open cell. Had a house fire and lost my frggin attic. Bastards sprayed over a foot , can't see the studs. I wanna plywood the attic? Can I even do it with this hideous fake snow ruined my storag
I wasn't clear on what you said. If I use the closed cell, no vapor barrier is required? So no issue with the cold and warm air with condensation you mentioned?
One of the most precise and clearest explanations I've heard on TH-cam for a while.
I appreciate you taking the time to explain the difference between open and closed . I hung batts like r-11 to r-38, kraft & unfaced, poly, flame spread, etc. then our company went to spray foam insulation, but I was trained poorly bc the new guys just wanted to get the job done. I no longer work there, but I found out they made serious mistakes on the job that got them into a lot of lawsuits.
Brilliant information
Thanks for the video. The best I watched so far! Can I ask a couple questions? First, some people warned me that the closed cell foam can hinder the expansion and retraction of the wooden ceiling structure possibly damaging it. Is that true? Second, do you recommend a vapor barrier or chamber on a wooden ceiling before applying the foam? Thank you so much!
Excellent analysis and excellent video!!
Simple for exterior use closed, for interior walls for sound insulation use open cell
that is helpful, thank you! We're on the verge of getting our inside walls insulated w/ spray foam and I am confused!
Thanks!
I live in the south and have an older house with ridge vents and side drafts exits. Do those vents stay there, I heard the house has to breathe? And can you leave in the blown in insulation, since you only spray the roof?
I am looking for different information: I am looking for a picture of the can of spray foam on the shelf at Menads, Lowes, Home Depot, Ace Hardware, etc. that says >>> this can of spray foam is open cell >>>> this can of spray foam is closed cell.
What I am thinking, or finding, is that the low-expanding type that they sell for window and door frame is probably Closed Cell. They claim it will not bow the frame of the window or door, so it will still open and close easy. They say it only expands up to 1 inch layer. On the other hand, the one they advertize as Gap Filler that expands 3 inches or more is probably Open Cell.
What is the gas for closed cell? Is it possible to choose different gases in closed cell, for example to improve fire resistance?
You flow a good video. 👍
I have built a shop that is 20x28 and two stories. Unheated garage below, heated shop above. The shop is insulated with fiberglass. I want to insulate the floor of the shop, which is the ceiling of the garage with closed cell foam to provide a vapor barrier and rigidity. The floor joists are 9 1/2" TJI's 20" long. I was going to install a row of solid bridging when I thought that I would be insulating with fiberglass, but now wonder if it is needed with the additional structural support from the closed cell. I also wonder if the bridging/blocking would take away from the structural integrity of the foam by preventing a continuous application of foam. The floor is pretty stiff with only a little spring to it, but any improvement would be welcome. Thank you for reading my ramblings', and I look forward to your response. Thank you, Charlie
what is your take on this study?
The largest factor that can affect the insulation's performance is moisture. Usually insulation is expected to keep something warmer or colder than the other side of the insulation. This temperature differential (TD) causes, in many cases, a dew point to form inside the insulation. Once the dew point is reached, moisture is trapped. As water has a much lower R-value than insulation, the water reduces the R-value of the insulation. The more water resistance the insulation has, the better the insulation performs in high TD situations. Since walk-in coolers and freezers are high TD applications, sometimes 110º F on the outside and -20º F on the inside, the higher the moisture resistance of the insulation, the better. When looking at the water vapor permeance of the different foams, it is found that polyurethane allows more water vapor permeance and extruded polystyrene the least. Since water lowers the R-value of insulation, extruded polystyrene retains its R-value better than polyurethane.
In the preceding graph, polyurethane loses over 75% of it's R-value in five years and extruded polystyrene loses only 25% of its R-value. Therefore, extruded polystyrene's performance, in actual walk-in conditions when moisture is considered, is over three times as good as polyurethane.
References
U.S. Cooler Company
401 Delaware St.
Quincy, IL 62301
800.521.2665
U.S. Cooler Walk-ins
Reference 1
Owens Corning Internal Study
Owens Corning
One Owens Corning Parkway
Toledo, OH 43659
1.800.438.7465
Owens Corning Website
Reference 2
U.S. Army Corps of Engineer's (CRREL) test data. "Wetting of Polystyrene and Urethane Roof Insulation in the Laboratory and on a Protected Membrane Roof." Wayne Tobiasson, Alan Greatorex, and Doris Van Pelt; Cold Regions Research and Engineering Laboratory, Hanover, NH 1987.
Reference 3
U.S. Army Corps of Engineer's (CRREL) test data. "New Wetting Curves for Common Roof Installations," by Wayne Toblasson, Alan Greatorex, and Doris Van Pelt; Cold Regions Research and Engineering Laboratory, Hanover, NH 1991.
I live in eastern Iowa I'm about to install the spray cell foam insulation. Do I have to use the closed cell foam because of the the winter in Iowa is too cold. Will the spray cell foam insulation affect my house value and I heard a lot of people talking. I probably can't sell my house if the buyer find out I had the space cell foam insulation installed, is it true?
I'm looking of doing a metal shed for a living space. So 2" closed cell first then open cell to top it off
Great Video
Question; is foam in a can (Great Stuff) open or close cell?
I believe it’s closed cell if you haven’t figured it out already:)
so if its metal sided in oklahoma would you need a vapor barrier with close cell?
Hi and thanks for this great video! I live in Europe, in a 4 season climate country, where you can get 100F in the summer and -60F in the winter with abundant snowfalls. What would you recommend for a container home building (shipping metal container) where there are no cost concerns since I’m quite limited on space? My only concern is the condensation from inside! Thanks a lot!
Closed cell foam!
Shipping container home = limited indoor space. Use external insulation, XPS or EPS, not polyiso as it loses its R value at low temperature. I believe they make trapezoid shaped foam that fit the valleys in the shipping container walls. Or, fill in the valleys with closed cell spray foam and top it off with XPS or EPS foam board. You would need to cover the exterior foam with siding as UV light destroys it. On the interior valleys, use bolts that go to the outside for attaching your siding. Fill interior valleys with CC spray foam. Maybe this defeats the industrial look you may want, but given that deep cold, those metal walls should not be exposed.
Hello, my name is Mario and I don't know what foam to use to fill a hot tub inflatable instead of air so it will be a closed chamber to be filled with foam.please can you advise me what foam would be best for this task high density and is able to cure in closed chamber thankyou
Great video. Thanks for the information. I'm looking to insulate a couple of 'vaulted' rooms in our home, that are easy to make isolated, due to the lay out of the rooms and roof rafters. I am thinking closed cell, because the rafters are 2x4. The home was built in the 50s. Also I am thinking about eliminating the vent baffles so the foam can be sprayed right on the roof sheeting, with no ventilation, and we get the maximum depth. The home is in CA..... any thoughts?
Thanks again.
Hi liked your video . I live in SE North Carolina and have a new metal garage and want to spray foam it. I'm thinking close cell in the ceiling and sides.Please tell the negatives if any using the close cell foam...Thank You..Chris
Hey Chris! There are virtually no negatives to using closed cell on metal. The only concern is whether the builder will void the warranty on the tin if it has to be replaced. Easy solution is to spray onto housewrap between metal and foam.
Hi we hope you are doing good! We are building our house in houston texas what do you recommend?
I think you can use open cell all day in Texas!
Thank you
I’m building a shed/workshop in Ontario Canada. Same weather as Chicago I would guess. Hot summers cold winters. Looking for the best way to insulate for comfort. Window a/c and base board heat . 10x16’ gravel base with silver bubble wrap between floor joist and subfloor. House wrap. So my questions…
If I do 2” closed cell insulation walls and ceiling do I still need gable vents and soffit vents. Do I still want to do vapour barrier?
Thank you kindly for your time, knowledge and skill. Much appreciated
What would you use if the low temperature was 65°f and the high was 105°f but most the time 75°f to about 85°f on the out side and wanting to have ac and The house is made of concrete walls and no insulation?
With using close cell, do I need to close up my ridge vent to prevent pressure when opening and closing doors?
dose close cell mean its ok for wall cavities?
Hi! Great video! I have my first spray foam machine. I am in Waco Teaxas and need a recommendation for a good distributor
What would you recommend for insulating a metal shop building? I have been quoted 1in closed cell
What is required in the DFW Metroplex?
Close cell foam are sealant?If i spray my home concentrate roof with close cell do a right thing?
what would pros and cons be for open vs closed cell for hot tub insulation ? im looking at one thats open cell
which do you recommend for a concrete house in the tropics?
Either would work well. My go to would be closed cell because of the high humidity
Hello, I am remodeling my house I live in Rensselaer, Indiana. I have used a closed cell in one of my rooms and very costly. Should I stay with that or can I go to open cell?
@lighthouse is there an issue spray foaming on bricks of an old house... Something to do with the mortar crumbling due to freezing in the winter and not have the heat from the house?
What cell foam are in home depot cans?
Technically closed cell, I believe!
@@patrickmahoney3923 ok thank you
What would be the best choice between the two for a Shipping Container House in South Florida?
I am not the expert here, but I think the closed cell does not expand a lot, but it forms a harder bond and seal. So if it was my shipping container house, which is a thick metal wall, I would spray a layer of closed cell on the metal wall - which will end up giving you about a 1 inch thick layer of foam that will eliminate touching the metal and it will stop the feeling of hot metal in the sun or cold metal at night. Then to make your space inside have a more constant temperature you will need a thicker layer that will prevent the air temperature outside from influencing the temperature inside. So then I would spray layers of open cell on top of the base layer of closed cell. Because the closed cell layer is only 1 inch thick. The open cell is going to expand to about 3 inches. Then you can add more open cell layers to make your wall thicker. You can add a closed cell layer at the end which will close it off better and then the whole layer will mimic a closed cell layer even though it is open cell sandwiched in between 2 layers of closed cell. You will have to wait at least 1 day in between layers for the foam to dry and harden, or the new layer will sort of melt the old layer and make it go away some. A lot of times people build a 2x4 wooden wall and put plastic sheet on there. Then spray the foam on the plastic. It expands and they spray more layers. And when they get to spraying the last layer they cover it with another sheet of plastic stapled to the 2x4 wall. So you end up with a 2x4 wall with plastic on the outside and filled with foam on the inside. They run the wiring an plumbing in the 2x4s before spraying most of the time. Or they cut through the foam and drill the wood to add it later. and maybe touch up and seal areas. the draw back of having 2x4 walls inside your shipping container house is it is going to make your living space smaller inside the container.
I like that idea about hybriding the Closed with the Open. We are probably a zone 9 climate according to the California map I looked at. Half the house is stucco and the other half is vinyl siding. We were thinking or the stucco cost effective wise the hybriding of closed and open may work. Your thoughts? For the Vinyl we can't tackle from the outside, so we were thinking of just the open cell. Your thoughts?
BTW, great video I learned a lot.
Hello, I am a building scientist and I engineer wall and ceiling enclosures. You only need two to two and a half inches of closed cell foam to effectively insulate your home from a scientific standpoint. Your local building codes may say otherwise. It’s really unfortunate local codes and inspectors haven’t dropped R value from their certification method as R value is a product of the fiberglass and wool insulation industry. Unfortunately we often have to overfill our wall cavities at a great expense to the home owner or builder just to meet codes. To the point of diminishing return. Also, I’d be careful with mixing the two as open cell is like a sponge and will hold moisture inside of it and could develop mold issues. If you are in a coastal area with moisture in the air, I’d stick to closed cell foam. If you are forced to hit a specific “r value” that two inches of closed cell doesn’t provide, I’d only recommend mineral wool batting (not fiberglass) along with half an inch of closed cell in your wall cavities if they are 2x4 construction, if they are 2x6 construction I’d go with the full 2 inches of closed cell plus Rockwool.
Can you use closed cell in the South? And, where do you put the vapor barrier?
Closed cell can be used in both cold and warm climates. It forms it's own vapor barrier. Open cell is usually accepted in warm climates, where wall R-value requirements are lower. Open cell foam requires a vapor barrier installation. Whenever a vapor barrier is installed, it must always be installed on the warm side of the insulation to prevent condensation forming in the insulation.
in an existing wall would open cell be better to inject into cavity vs closed cell softer when cured vs hard? . i am concerned that the closed cell will break the drywall. what about air gap sealing is open cell exceptable vs not having any at all?
you might want to consider how much does each kind expand. I think the open cell expands a lot (3 inches) and the closed cell not so much (1 inch)
I live in Chicago and want to insulate my attic, not the floor, but the underside of the roof to slow the melting of snow (I have a furnace in the attic which causes melting and giant icicles). Closed or open cell?
Chicago's weather is so volatile you'd wants both a vapor and air barrier which you could achieve with close cell foam
Your heating system shouldn’t be allowing heat in the attic?? Insulate your air ducts.
I live close to the southern border in Texas. Pretty Close to Laredo Texas. Please guide me in terms of what foam I should use. Temperatures often reach +110 degree Fahrenheit in the summer. I want to be COLD in my tiny home. What should I use for insulation? Remember I don't want to go to sleep sweating. Don't worry about budget, any suggestion would be much obliged.
If cost is no concern, closed cell is king. 4-5” closed cell is walk-in freezer performance. I live in McAllen and after much research I’ve decided that closed cell is the direction I’m gonna go for my attic.
If you lived anywhere else you would use open cell because?
You are going to have a lot of problems in the future as both types of foam get exposed to moisture. They both will absorb water over time, do not have to be submerged. You are going to have mold and rot issues. Need too be using waterproof materials.
What would you recommend?
What is recommended if trying to closed off gaps in an attic exposed to outside elements instead of spray foam?
I DESPISE open cell. Had a house fire and lost my frggin attic. Bastards sprayed over a foot , can't see the studs. I wanna plywood the attic? Can I even do it with this hideous fake snow ruined my storag
You need less tattoos on your right arm and more tattoos on your left arm. Also, does that Black ring means you are married to the devil or something?
You want your outside walls to breath
Is close cell fire retardant?
I wasn't clear on what you said. If I use the closed cell, no vapor barrier is required? So no issue with the cold and warm air with condensation you mentioned?