Pathfinder Community Questions - How do Illusions Work?

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 76

  • @Lechteron
    @Lechteron 3 ปีที่แล้ว +29

    So what you're saying is that Wile E. Coyote is an illusionist wizard and Road Runner has an abysmal perception.

  • @mellenz_4299
    @mellenz_4299 3 ปีที่แล้ว +20

    Nonat Sounds like someone in a comedy club. “So what about this illusion magic, someone casts a thing, but it’s not there.”

    • @Nonat1s
      @Nonat1s  3 ปีที่แล้ว +12

      "You know, I wish my WIFE were an illusion! If I didn't believe in her, she'd just disappear! AM I RIGHT????"

  • @probablynotasith5355
    @probablynotasith5355 3 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    "Alteration is changing reality, Illusion is changing the reality of one person."
    - Quote from the Elder Scrolls

  • @camerondyer4859
    @camerondyer4859 3 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    Funny that you posted this, while I was in the middle of creating a character thats focused in illusions lol

    • @Nonat1s
      @Nonat1s  3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      I seriously need to play an illusionist at some point. It's probably the single most creatively-open character you can make in any system since the only limits of what you can summon are your imagination. Even at level 1 you can summon a large statue of yourself. It may not have any physical presence, but you can still do it lol.

    • @camerondyer4859
      @camerondyer4859 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Our game is dual class, and im making a rogue/bard, who is a fake fortune teller. Im looking forward to starting the game this weekend lol

  • @SquirrelGamez
    @SquirrelGamez 3 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    There should be an Illusion spell called Illusionary Wings where you cast illusionary wings on people so they can be like "I believe I can fly!"

  • @havedicewillsave493
    @havedicewillsave493 3 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    Ah, illusions, the belief in which (or lack thereof) has sparked an infinite stream of arguments across RPG systems. Also, speaking as someone who has dealt with all manners of audio mishaps, I know those feels.

    • @Nonat1s
      @Nonat1s  3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      Haha, it's true! No matter what system you're playing, everyone starts to argue when the illusions come out! If only my audio failing was an illusion lol.

    • @havedicewillsave493
      @havedicewillsave493 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@Nonat1s It's true. Though the worst arguments I've had were running Vampire: The Masquerade. People defended their interpretation of Chimeristry mechanics like the loser of the fight faces the firing squad at first light.

  • @linus4d1
    @linus4d1 3 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    Not RAW, but this would be how I homebrew it.
    You can't move through a wall if you believe it is there unless you are pushed by an outside force. If you are pushed through in such a way, take 1d6 mental damage.
    Likewise, gravity is an outside force. You would fall through the bridge and take 1d6 mental damage for passing through the object.

    • @blakerichey2425
      @blakerichey2425 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      I actually really like this interpretation, except the damage part! Inflicting damage just seems beyond the scope of the spell, it doesnt have a mental trait. But under this interpretation, could a player than pick up an Illusory sword and swing it at an enemy? It would feel like a sword but completely phase through them?
      How I've generally run illusions in this edition is they are effectively holograms. You can just walk right through it even if you don't disbelieve, you just can't see through it.

  • @jhonea6535
    @jhonea6535 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    I don't think Illusory Object will EVER be structurally sound. Period. House of Imaginary Walls has this specific text as the exception, not the rule.

  • @shaneokeigan6150
    @shaneokeigan6150 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    This is an interesting scenario. With the “everyone but the wizard” can cross, that would mean that the barbarian can carry the wizard across the gap, while standing on a bridge that the wizard knows is fake.
    I would say that the “smells, sounds, and feels right” are merely mental effects. Sure you might think that you hit a wall if you ran into it, but would physics keep you aloft based on your belief? I think when given no other option, you would pass through.
    If you can’t stop a Giant from throwing you 20 feet, I don’t think you’d bounce in the other direction just because an illusion was there, unless the illusion was legitimately real.

  • @cirelancaster
    @cirelancaster ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I'd probably rule that you'd have to roll to force your character to run face first into a wall. If they succeed they go through it but their mind tries to justify it, maybe the wall broke and reformed or opened up.

  • @jamesrivettcarnac
    @jamesrivettcarnac 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Totally had a one shot with illusionary tower dungeon in AD&D. Final reward was a gem of true seeing. 300 ft in the air. Soooo many foreshadowings, party missed all of them and it was hilarious to see our gnome illusionist just fall through the floor.

  • @RemiTL
    @RemiTL 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    I must disagree... I would rule that believe it or not, you'd fall through the bridge. House of imaginary walls is a special case, but unless the spell says it stops you from moving through it... I'd say you would definitely fall right through.

  • @Brass_Heathen
    @Brass_Heathen 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I got to say I really like this format better. I find a lot of time when questions are asked a general one or two sentence answer isn't enough. Besides we have all the time we want. Go deep!

  • @Pliskin0207
    @Pliskin0207 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    i have a nice real life example if any one cares. when you play a VR-game you know its not true but when you see a pit or something like this and fall in to this pit your body doesn't change its position but your eyes see that you falling, your brain will say "shit i´m falling better do something" and you try to stable yourself or land correct.
    what i try too say, your instincts works faster than your reasonable brain so even when you know something isn't real you can get tricked by it

  • @goblinobz
    @goblinobz ปีที่แล้ว

    The way I've always ruled your goblin running through illusory terrain in the past is that those who failed still believe it's real and their brains just rationalize a reason why their comrade is able to sprint through it. I would give them a second chance if someone specifically points it out as an illusion. This way it can still be dramatic without leaving the player who cast it feeling like they just wasted a spell slot and their time in trying to play an illusionist

  • @Keovar
    @Keovar ปีที่แล้ว

    There is a short VR scenario called "Richie's Plank Experience", in which you take an elevator to the top of a building and see an opening with a wooden plank extending out over the street 525* feet (160m) below. Despite knowing full well it isn't real, most people can't walk out onto it the first time.
    If someone thinks it's easy to disbelieve illusions, they should try walking the plank.
    *In a funny coincidence, 525 is the average damage a character would suffer if they fell 1500 feet, reaching terminal velocity, and took 150d6 bludgeoning. Some games might cap falling damage at a paltry 20d6 to avoid rolling and adding ludicrous amounts of dice, but the obvious solution is to simply say "you dead".

  • @CraigSteinhoff
    @CraigSteinhoff 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Well I would not allow an illusory bridge to be used that way, it could be used to trick someone to fall but not to create a bridge.

  • @beamersrq
    @beamersrq 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    The question for me is what triggers someone to take the seek action? If you believe the wall is real why would you then spend an action to disbelieve it? Kinda the same issue in prior editions when you have to make a will save once you hit the wall, everyone now knows it's an illusion even if they all fail their saves.

    • @jhonea6535
      @jhonea6535 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I think that's my favorite upgrade to illusions. Previously you got a will save for "interacting," which was horrendously nebulous. Now unless you SPECIFICALLY attempt to Seek out inconsistencies, there's no reason why you would assume it's anything other than real.

    • @blakerichey2425
      @blakerichey2425 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@jhonea6535 Not quite correct, any action they take that counts as 'engaging with the illusion' permits a save in 2e. Not only Seek.
      But the introduction of secret rolls really changes how illusions can impact the game. Just don't tell the players there is an illusions unless they see something that grossly defies logic or they perform the Investigate or Detect exploration activities or Seek in combat or try to run through the illusory wall like a baffoon.

  • @Brass_Heathen
    @Brass_Heathen 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    TBH the standing in front of the sheet looks like an open mic night at a small comedy club. Or a Taliban demands video. Take your pick.

    • @Nonat1s
      @Nonat1s  3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      You are actually the 2nd person to make the open mic night joke, and I'm not even upset lol.

    • @Brass_Heathen
      @Brass_Heathen 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@Nonat1s good, good. I'm just razzing you and I know it helps you with the algorithm.

  • @dmc8706
    @dmc8706 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    If objects on the other side of disbelieved illusions are concealed, what happens if the villain casts illusory terrain on land that has pit traps on it? Do the pit traps have concealment even if the illusion is disbelieved? Does that make them harder to spot?

    • @Nonat1s
      @Nonat1s  3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      I would say so, yeah. I think that's a VERY devious and creative combo.

    • @dmc8706
      @dmc8706 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@Nonat1s Now I'm just imagining some kobold opponents who are lower level than the PCs and the players think they're coming in for an easy fight. They come out of a cave onto illusory terrain that they probably disbelieve. A kobold wizzard is on the other end of the terrain behind cover chanting an incantation, getting ready to cast a spell. Some flying opponents are coming around towards the players (with bombs if anyone makes the perception dc). They start going through the terrain to get to the caster when one of the players steps on a hidden bear trap that is triple secured to the ground. They are stuck and have trouble with reflex saves. A boulder falls in front of the cave entrence, the wizard cast fireball...

    • @dmc8706
      @dmc8706 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @@Nonat1s Also, if the wizard disbelieves his own illusion, shouldn't he be able to step inside of it and cast spells from full cover against opponents who fail to disbelieve the illusion? ("The spell is coming from INSIDE the boulder!" Or better yet, an illusion with an auditory effect like a waterfall to cover that pesky chanting sound. An enemy caster could combine this with divination magic for an effective ambush! Obviously casting spells that have no visible line of effect.)
      If you disbelieve an opponent's illusion, can you dive into it to gain concealment against the enemy caster?

  • @yoshiman9521
    @yoshiman9521 3 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    i kinda disagree that you would actually be able to walk over a fake wall even if you believe that its there. even if i believe theres a bridge there gravity still says otherwise. unfortunately i dont set my campaigns in looney toons world (yet)

    • @Lechteron
      @Lechteron 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      The particular thing he was talking about: "Heightened (2nd) Your image makes appropriate sounds, generates normal smells, and feels right to the touch. The spell gains the auditory trait. The duration increases to 1 hour."
      The fact that it feels real and correct. I'd probably rule that it can't be load bearing but I get why someone would rule differently.

    • @yoshiman9521
      @yoshiman9521 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@Lechteron i feel like if its something that you can stand on its conjuration at that point

    • @Lechteron
      @Lechteron 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Not necessarily. There's definitely some overlap like House of Imaginary Walls which specifically says that you can choose to believe it and if you do can climb on it and what not.

    • @yoshiman9521
      @yoshiman9521 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@Lechteron sure but that spell specifically has additional text. meaning that normally illiusions dont function that way

    • @Lechteron
      @Lechteron 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I agree but the point is that there can be overlap much like how not every spell that does damage is an evocation spell.
      Like I was saying, I would rule the tactile sensation as being purely sensory and thus not load bearing but I also understand why a GM might rule differently and that's fine.

  • @jasoncox5263
    @jasoncox5263 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    4:36 alternatively, you could keep the DC to disbelieve but award free seek actions for things that disrupt someone's belief in the validity of a thing (ie. seeing your wizard cast the same spell multiple times or seeing an ally disbelieve something)
    8:33 that's a very Wile E Coyote way for running it. I would say that no, its an illusion, it can't actually support any weight. Basically think about how a mime interacts with invisible objects, this is what you are doing when you interact with an illusion. You are contorting yourself subconsciously so that your experiences match your expectations. So if there is an illusionary chair, you squat down as if you were seated, you might even trick yourself into thinking that you are relaxing in the chair, but if someone pushes you over, you fall through like it wasn't there.

  • @trysnouveau8626
    @trysnouveau8626 ปีที่แล้ว

    The party wouldn't necessarily know that it's illusory though. I wouldn't use a deception check, I'd just have them make the check to disbelieve when they step on it. If they know the spell or are told it's fake they would just fall automatically

  • @astrid2432
    @astrid2432 ปีที่แล้ว

    I think you can compare it to a gen jutsu from naruto
    like you can't get physical hurt, but your mind plays like you get hurt and so on

  • @thirdcoastfirebird
    @thirdcoastfirebird ปีที่แล้ว

    Don't insult yourself! I am the only master of self-deprecating humor. (Walks away victoriously. Then trips and falls.) I meant to do that!

  • @cirelancaster
    @cirelancaster ปีที่แล้ว

    I want to see a cartoon where the wizard covers a spike pit with an illusion of the floor. Some dumb barbarian comes along and casually strides across it, this infuriates the wizard who stomps on the illusion and falls into the pit.

  • @rifty6544
    @rifty6544 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    you had me at poppin' a squat

  • @PlaneswalkerTARDIS
    @PlaneswalkerTARDIS 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    So, what if you cast Warped Terrain on already difficult terrain?

    • @dmc8706
      @dmc8706 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      The rules lawyer player disbelieves the illusion and gets told that he still has to treat the ground as difficult terrain… he then loses his mind.

  • @yoshiman9521
    @yoshiman9521 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    TIBBERS!!! are you on the end of season grind?

    • @Nonat1s
      @Nonat1s  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Haha, I haven't touched the game (except for URF once a year) in about 3 years. I've always loved this shirt though!

  • @LimakPan
    @LimakPan ปีที่แล้ว

    Letting a player walk over an illusion requires for it to be matter, not perception. I would only allow it in a setting where believing thing is inherently magical, like a discworld-inspired one. Normal fantasy? Galorian? No way. An illusory wall feels real, but isn't. An illusory bridge would feel like you're stepping on something, but you'd fall through it immediately.

  • @pxblade
    @pxblade 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    lol well your a little off base on this one, illusions are a mental effect of a spell, the physical interactions with illusions do not happen for real, your brain is simply deceived into reacting to the illusion. you walk on illusory bridge, you fall but have no time to react with grab a ledge because you don't even comprehend your falling until you pass through the illusion. It s a wall, you run into it and don't bounce off a wall, but your brain tricks you into reacting as if you just hit something solid and you fall back. Also unless the player tells me they are trying to smash down the wall for real they have no reason to charge an illusion to "try and pass through it".

    • @PureAlcatraz
      @PureAlcatraz 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Illusory Object doesn't have the 'Mental' trait, so it's not directly effecting the mind. The idea on upcast is that it is creating something solid. The line 'Feels real to touch' indicates that there is some solidity to the object you create, and in that solidity you should be able to walk across an illusory bridge.

    • @SauceyRedHN
      @SauceyRedHN 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@PureAlcatraz How I interpret it, is that if someone create a wall with it and you touche it, it’ll feel real and you won’t be able to go through it, simply because your brain thinks it’s real and subconsciously stopping you from being able to go through it. So if you attempted to run through it, you would _think_ you “hit” the wall and stumble backwards, but in _reality_ you just subconsciously stopped and stumbled backwards.
      However, if someone else pushed you against the wall, you would go through it, because that other person would be an external force, one that you can’t control.
      With this in mind, creating an illusory bridge and walking over it would not work, since gravity is an external force pushing you down, making you fall. You’d still believe it was real and instinctively attempt to grab onto it while falling, but you wouldn’t be able to hold onto it and you’d continue falling.
      Now, taking an example someone else came up with, if someone created an illusory chair and you tried to sit down on it, you would be able to and would feel like it was real, but what would actually be happening is that you just get into a sitting position, sitting in the air, your brain being tricked into thinking you’re actually sitting on a chair. However, if someone were to push down on you, you’d fall through. As for feeling tired staying in that position for an extended period of time, I’d say your brain would be tricked into not thinking your muscles are “in use”, so you wouldn’t feel tired, but your body would still exert itself to keep you in that position.
      That’s how I’d rule it.

  • @SheenaTigerspielt
    @SheenaTigerspielt 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hmmm... how about a barstool or something to that effect?

    • @Nonat1s
      @Nonat1s  3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      I love the idea of conjuring a illusory seat, someone sit in it and believes it, and then you just tell them it's not really there and they fall through 😂

    • @SheenaTigerspielt
      @SheenaTigerspielt 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Nonat1s Well... my idea was more along the lines for you but that idea sounds fun... at least if it is not a Barbarian. He might not like the trick of the spellcaster ^^

    • @Nonat1s
      @Nonat1s  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@SheenaTigerspielt God help us all if he's a "Superstition" instinct 😂

  • @THEdeadlynightshade1646
    @THEdeadlynightshade1646 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    So I would never play a illusionist in your games x.x hey your dc is lower....so if a goblin sees me casting fireball and tells his buddies you'd lower there dex save dc since they had head start right?

    • @Nonat1s
      @Nonat1s  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      If a goblin somehow has a reaction that allows him to grant a saving throw bonus to allies similar to a Bard's "Counter Performance", sure, though that arguement doesn't apply in the same way to illusions.
      With an illusion, the power comes from the fooling of the senses. If you see multiple people walk through a wall that you've failed to disbelieve, then there is additional information leading you to disbelieve it, granting a lower DC on future Seek checks thanks to the additional knowledge of the situation.
      More knowledge allows for more informed checks against the situation. More knowledge does not tend to save you in a split-second explosion.

    • @THEdeadlynightshade1646
      @THEdeadlynightshade1646 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@Nonat1s except it kinda does you knowing something is going to happen allows you to deal with it better for example someone throws a rock you see it coming you can put your arms in front of your face did it still hurt ya but not as much as getting hit in the face I am just not a fan of lowering dcs of spells just because (also in fireball example get behind a rock or lay flat on the ground less surface area to burn so should be less damage putting the shield on that side still not the most effective but would be more protection then a blindsided rush of fire

    • @jhonea6535
      @jhonea6535 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@Nonat1s Disagree on this one. Though it could tip you off to take the Seek action to interact and figure it out, which is not an assumed conclusion otherwise.

    • @kylone1
      @kylone1 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@Nonat1s I'd require the Goblin who saved to use a Point Out action to enable his companions to have another save.

  • @BardWannabe
    @BardWannabe 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    i-Loo-sary

    • @nugsnotdrugs7717
      @nugsnotdrugs7717 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I-Loo-Sore-ree

    • @Nonat1s
      @Nonat1s  3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      I-Lose-Sorry

    • @swingspst
      @swingspst 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Illisory ...kept making me think it was some new name for a type of dinosaur. Illisorus Rex

    • @hallrstein
      @hallrstein 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      iˈlo͞osərē

  • @Atrianpaul
    @Atrianpaul 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    you need a bar stool... great video... as in D&D 2e you can kill many people with a ilusion... if your ilusion is an avalanche and they fail... they will throw them self to the void :P

  • @gidofter_lukge
    @gidofter_lukge 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Phone Audio!

    • @Nonat1s
      @Nonat1s  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      You don't even know how upset I was when I finished recording lol