43:45 This is interesting, especially in light of the conversation I had with Martin about Maclolm Guite's suggestion that North American Christianity had been impoverished by failing to integrate the stories of the land. The question then becomes how can this be accomplished without risk of cultural appropriation. This actually is in tension with Martin's own writing in several other place in which he suggests that one need not be native to a place, to become connected to it through it's stories. This is quite a practical question as I am in the midst of organizing a conference here in the Pacific Northwest and I have been looking for a Native American story teller for the conference.
I put this forward very gently and respectfully, not being from the US and therefore not fully knowing your situation - but I wonder how much store need to set by the notion of “cultural appropriation”. It’s always seemed (to me as a European, whose culture is entirely shared across all boundaries) such a mean-spirited, narrow, fussy, paranoid concept, and it limits and frustrates any true cultural creation. All culture is shared - from Homer to Bob Dylan. All *life* is shared. There cannot by any definition be any kind of cultural production without the artist taking elements that are not his. Language, musical instruments, art materials - all are borrowed from somewhere. Idiom, images, metaphor - all borrowed. No culture has not borrowed from others, no person has not learned from others, and both not been enriched. It strikes me that the appropriation concept has both the legalism of the capitalist patent and intellectual property mindset, and also risks a kind of cultural purism that could almost be seen as fascist. It’s not going to work in the long run because it’s anti-human, anti-life. But hopefully any learning from other cultures can be done sensitively. Apologies if I’m not seeing something here.
I can so relate. Thanks to thinkers and explores like these two, I’ve learned that Christianity (and other religions too) are meant to “have” proportionally but meant to be in participation with. Talks like these send my imaginal capacity soaring! Dangerous for sure. But in the danger, a bigger, more meaningful and real life is to be discovered.
Just lovely listening to the two of you talk.. unexpectedly your conversation reawakened the Yearning in me that I hadn’t realised has been missing a while. It brings a close image & invitation to ride the white horse into the deep wildwood of soul again.. thank you.
Praying without word's, carried on the back of each musical note, vibration. When it resonates with your own heart strings. Cos the moon is rising in dominance over the sun. The last stand, completion. How can the water bearer fill our cups with new themes if they are over flowing with bullshot?
I'd expand on the observation Mr. Shaw made in response to the hypothetical declaration, "I'm too complicated for Christianity." Yes indeed, "if that's what you think, you're dealing with a facsimile...." Actually, two facsimiles. A facsimile of Christ, and a facsimile of yourself. So, naturally, there can be no authentic encounter between two such facsimiles.
it is not "your" Christ, Martin-- this avatar belongs to many. You may relate in your own style, even have your own space to dance in. However, the minute you claim to own Christ is the moment the holy war starts.
The most intractable idea for those of us raised as secular humanists is considering (etym.with the stars) metaphysical evil. So I can both think it is increasing exponentially, with "the furnaces of affliction", and not be able to believe in it. I signed up for House of Beasts and Vines, finally, and went to the archive to begin at the beginning. Something inarticulable in the story of the Horned Women, inchoate for the left brain, resonated in an inexplicable way with my sense that without Christ something in us can whorl with the presence of metaphysical evil and join it. I loved this conversation, and feel it to be a tracker's mark on a tree towards Dylan's "highway of diamonds with nobody on it" and not of his"ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken" And on Good Friday eve. I'm for Hopkins's dappled things, not the nightmare of the perfect, but this dialogue is both moth eaten and perfect.
This course sounds so good with many delicious guests - alas, I am too old now for such journeys but I hope I might get little crumbs from the table.... ?
Not exactly applicable to my own spiritual sense but I think Mark and Rupert Sheldrake made the point of somehow the old places of worship, places on the earth, Gods themselves being under utilised or forgotten. From Sheldrake's perspective if the society becomes less Christian are we breaking that resonance with the past? However the question then emerges what past do you go back to? Is it pre-Christian, say to the sacred wells, mountains etc say of the celts? Would we be return to some pastiche anyway.? A cursory look at a youtube on the people building super computers, quantum computers makes me feel these people are a new priestly class.
Mark I spoke to you the other day at the Jung club . no one could be more eclectic in terms of spiritual practices eastern religions mysticism etc and the legacy religions but I do wonder where do all the ordinary mothers and children I see go who seem either happy with our Catholic Church or the evangelical charismatic but then we are spoilt for choice in Oxford ….!!!but then Not everyone is free to do all this island stuff …. No man is an island
There is a simple answer to this point at 48:00 All people are made in the image of God, and all are naturally good. Evil and bad works is through the Fall and our fallen condition.
"It's not just what's going on in our heads." Exactly, This simple truth is pure gold. The quintessence of the spiritual life, the Christian life, is NOT an obsessive introspection. The meaning, flow, rhythm and trajectory of the true "world" (reality) we are ultimately part of inifinitely transcends the "world" we are not to be "of" (run ragged by, as your guest put it so well), and that equally means it transcends our conscious conjurings, rabbit warrens, conceptualizing and imaging. Which doesn't disallow or damn the conscious conjurings but safely puts them in their place, reminding us not to be essentially "of" them, either.
I just thought to comment on the title, hello 👋 Strangeness is not a natural property. Strange is a perception that we can grow familiar at defining. I imagine strangeness comes from a ( conscious or unconscious) association with quarks? I'm surprised, given your religious insights, that you would not define the new reality as mysterious? Mystery is at the expressive edge of any faith, and any genuine enquiry into the nature of nature.
You're probably right but I'm working on William Blake right now and for him "mystery" is an ambivalent word, carrying the ring of mystified, whereas "vision" and "visionary" are the words alive to the tremendous and ineffable. So I'm holding off "mystery" for a while to see what difference it makes!
@PlatosPodcasts That's one thing that makes you a great creator Mark, you do interact with your audience. Thanks for the reply and insight to the unspoken influences. William Blake is probably the mosy mercurial artist i have learnt about, i can't wait! Thank you in advance 👌
@PlatosPodcasts That's one thing that makes you a great creator Mark, you do interact with your audience. Thanks for the reply and insight to the unspoken influences. William Blake is probably the mosy mercurial artist i have learnt about, i can't wait! Thank you in advance 👌
43:45 This is interesting, especially in light of the conversation I had with Martin about Maclolm Guite's suggestion that North American Christianity had been impoverished by failing to integrate the stories of the land. The question then becomes how can this be accomplished without risk of cultural appropriation. This actually is in tension with Martin's own writing in several other place in which he suggests that one need not be native to a place, to become connected to it through it's stories. This is quite a practical question as I am in the midst of organizing a conference here in the Pacific Northwest and I have been looking for a Native American story teller for the conference.
I put this forward very gently and respectfully, not being from the US and therefore not fully knowing your situation - but I wonder how much store need to set by the notion of “cultural appropriation”. It’s always seemed (to me as a European, whose culture is entirely shared across all boundaries) such a mean-spirited, narrow, fussy, paranoid concept, and it limits and frustrates any true cultural creation. All culture is shared - from Homer to Bob Dylan. All *life* is shared. There cannot by any definition be any kind of cultural production without the artist taking elements that are not his. Language, musical instruments, art materials - all are borrowed from somewhere. Idiom, images, metaphor - all borrowed. No culture has not borrowed from others, no person has not learned from others, and both not been enriched. It strikes me that the appropriation concept has both the legalism of the capitalist patent and intellectual property mindset, and also risks a kind of cultural purism that could almost be seen as fascist. It’s not going to work in the long run because it’s anti-human, anti-life. But hopefully any learning from other cultures can be done sensitively. Apologies if I’m not seeing something here.
@@julianchase95 I don't disagree
Andrew Huberman looks great with a hat.
What a nice treat!
Thanks. That's what I feel about your work.
I was going to boo christianity like I normally do but in this case yayy for alternative interpretations!!
I can so relate. Thanks to thinkers and explores like these two, I’ve learned that Christianity (and other religions too) are meant to “have” proportionally but meant to be in participation with. Talks like these send my imaginal capacity soaring! Dangerous for sure. But in the danger, a bigger, more meaningful and real life is to be discovered.
LOVE the idea of the Star for your course, Martin! Brilliant integration of the natural, invisible and symbolic world!
2 treasures. I wish I lived in the UK, or had the "do-re-mi" to travel--I surely would attend. God speed. Thank you.
Mark... My experience with your book and lectures on the Divine Comedy were very much helping my thruogh my very own divine comedy! ❤🙏
Good to hear. That's what Dante does...
Just lovely listening to the two of you talk.. unexpectedly your conversation reawakened the Yearning in me that I hadn’t realised has been missing a while. It brings a close image & invitation to ride the white horse into the deep wildwood of soul again.. thank you.
Praying without word's, carried on the back of each musical note, vibration.
When it resonates with your own heart strings.
Cos the moon is rising in dominance over the sun. The last stand, completion. How can the water bearer fill our cups with new themes if they are over flowing with bullshot?
I'd expand on the observation Mr. Shaw made in response to the hypothetical declaration, "I'm too complicated for Christianity." Yes indeed, "if that's what you think, you're dealing with a facsimile...." Actually, two facsimiles. A facsimile of Christ, and a facsimile of yourself. So, naturally, there can be no authentic encounter between two such facsimiles.
This conversation blew my mind. Wow. Deep breath.
it is not "your" Christ, Martin-- this avatar belongs to many. You may relate in your own style, even have your own space to dance in. However, the minute you claim to own Christ is the moment the holy war starts.
Presence would feel like Christ.
The most intractable idea for those of us raised as secular humanists is considering (etym.with the stars) metaphysical evil. So I can both think it is increasing exponentially, with "the furnaces of affliction", and not be able to believe in it. I signed up for House of Beasts and Vines, finally, and went to the archive to begin at the beginning. Something inarticulable in the story of the Horned Women, inchoate for the left brain, resonated in an inexplicable way with my sense that without Christ something in us can whorl with the presence of metaphysical evil and join it.
I loved this conversation, and feel it to be a tracker's mark on a tree towards Dylan's "highway of diamonds with nobody on it" and not of his"ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken" And on Good Friday eve. I'm for Hopkins's dappled things, not the nightmare of the perfect, but this dialogue is both moth eaten and perfect.
There is no such thing as the supernatural,its all natural, all of it. Its all nature, and so are we.
this Christian thing isn't working. I want it but it rejects me
I am a Gnostic yet still enjoyed the chats.
This course sounds so good with many delicious guests - alas, I am too old now for such journeys but I hope I might get little crumbs from the table.... ?
♥✨…look for the glimmering moments in tour childhood
Great conversation many thanks.
Saying "In the beginning was the Logos" uses mythos as the vehicle
Mark, i really hope you're working on a William Blake book that one day we can read?
Should be out next year...
Will this conversation be available as a podcast at all? Look forward as always to giving me undivided attention
It's on my podcast, Talks and Thoughts, available via podcast feeds.
Enjoyed the conflab. The Dartmoor weekends sound fantastic but I'm at the other end of the country, sadly.
Not exactly applicable to my own spiritual sense but I think Mark and Rupert Sheldrake made the point of somehow the old places of worship, places on the earth, Gods themselves being under utilised or forgotten. From Sheldrake's perspective if the society becomes less Christian are we breaking that resonance with the past? However the question then emerges what past do you go back to? Is it pre-Christian, say to the sacred wells, mountains etc say of the celts? Would we be return to some pastiche anyway.? A cursory look at a youtube on the people building super computers, quantum computers makes me feel these people are a new priestly class.
Mark I spoke to you the other day at the Jung club . no one could be more eclectic in terms of spiritual practices eastern religions mysticism etc and the legacy religions but I do wonder where do all the ordinary mothers and children I see go who seem either happy with our Catholic Church or the evangelical charismatic but then we are spoilt for choice in Oxford ….!!!but then
Not everyone is free to do all this island stuff …. No man is an island
There is a simple answer to this point at 48:00 All people are made in the image of God, and all are naturally good. Evil and bad works is through the Fall and our fallen condition.
Surely Jung says a lot of this , Marie Louise Von Franz etc
Try praying to someone whom you loved and who loved you but has now gone. ❤
"It's not just what's going on in our heads." Exactly, This simple truth is pure gold. The quintessence of the spiritual life, the Christian life, is NOT an obsessive introspection. The meaning, flow, rhythm and trajectory of the true "world" (reality) we are ultimately part of inifinitely transcends the "world" we are not to be "of" (run ragged by, as your guest put it so well), and that equally means it transcends our conscious conjurings, rabbit warrens, conceptualizing and imaging. Which doesn't disallow or damn the conscious conjurings but safely puts them in their place, reminding us not to be essentially "of" them, either.
The earthly life we wisely maintain a light, tenuous hold on...includes our brains.
Check out James Tabor
Excellent points💜
I just thought to comment on the title, hello 👋
Strangeness is not a natural property. Strange is a perception that we can grow familiar at defining. I imagine strangeness comes from a ( conscious or unconscious) association with quarks?
I'm surprised, given your religious insights, that you would not define the new reality as mysterious?
Mystery is at the expressive edge of any faith, and any genuine enquiry into the nature of nature.
You're probably right but I'm working on William Blake right now and for him "mystery" is an ambivalent word, carrying the ring of mystified, whereas "vision" and "visionary" are the words alive to the tremendous and ineffable. So I'm holding off "mystery" for a while to see what difference it makes!
@PlatosPodcasts That's one thing that makes you a great creator Mark, you do interact with your audience. Thanks for the reply and insight to the unspoken influences.
William Blake is probably the mosy mercurial artist i have learnt about, i can't wait! Thank you in advance 👌
@PlatosPodcasts That's one thing that makes you a great creator Mark, you do interact with your audience. Thanks for the reply and insight to the unspoken influences.
William Blake is probably the mosy mercurial artist i have learnt about, i can't wait! Thank you in advance 👌
🦋🕊🌹