Creator is creator. Editor is editor. Inspiration is inspiration. When any creative is doing their work, they will always have input. Many creations would not be the same without the input, inspiration and evolution of the original. But in the end, the creator is the creator, those that helped, are just inspiration, critics, advisors, etc... Those that then try to claim creator status, are just envious and want a higher status for the work they did to shape the creation, despite not actually creating it. Which is understandable but wrong IMO.
Well said, as a new comic creator (I work as a chef and am slowly funding my own comics) I can say being on boths sides, both creator and just hired gun writer, only the creator should get to claim the creator like you've said. I might help shape and color the world and characters within as a hired gun, but that's not outright creating them. Now for example; My friend and artist is doing a TTRPG rule set and wanted me to type up a 12 page short story for it to release along side the game rules. I didn't create the world, or even the characters in this instance. He told me what is in the world and I was playing with HIS toys. Now, I could approach him and say I had this idea for a character and he could approve it THEN that single character would be my creation, in his world that HE owns and created. So I can see how with many writers/artists and how much time has passed, the waters can get pretty muddy. I do agree with you, the creator is the creator, the writer the writer, the artist the artist and so on down the line. [Self Plug - If you're interested you can find a linktree on my TH-cam that has my socials and a free 32-page digital comic that introduces people to a new world and character I am creating.] [Title - Okuri-Inu: The Wolf Within] [Comic Premise - Takeru Okazakii is a haunted warrior who flees his family’s criminal syndicate only to have the ripples of his absence turn into waves that threaten everything he loves. To find atonement, he must confront his past and the dark ritual that bound him to the spirit of a hellhound.] I only posted this stuff here because it is a comic space, hope everyone is having a great day. Go check out Aliens vs Avengers!
First of all, Deadpool was created by Marv Wolfman and George Perez in New Teen Titans #2. In some ways I do understand (although not sure I agree) with Joe Kelly because Kelly really created the persona of Deadpool that most people associate with now....the 4th wall breaking Merc with a mouth. Don't agree with Roy Thomas however. Great video!
@Sector2815 disagree he's an amalgam of tributes. The name because Rob was such an admirer of George, costume design based on Spider-Man, origin was a combo of the movie twins and Wolverine, with a splash of Boba-Fett. So Joe Kelly created the fact that he was a wise cracking mercenary with ties to the weapon x program? Cancer? Disfigurement? Wow a rare swing and a miss for Paul. Also the top 3 highest selling appearances of Deadpool were all from Rob so keep reaching for that Joe Kelly made him popular. In reality Ryan Reynolds made Deadpool more popular than any comic creator. And for good measure Rob created Lady Deadpool, Headpool, kid Deadpool, and the corps.
This is a ignorant comment. You can see Deadpool break the fourth wall when Rob was writing and drawing him. Also no it’s not a Deathstroke rip off, that’s dumb. He has Spider-Man’s eyes, there’s lots of other characters he took ideas from to make Deadpool. Just because he has some similarities with deathstroke doesn’t mean they are copies. Every character has lots of similarities with one another.
@ryanwilliams7639 wade Wilson. . . .slade Wilson... . .Deadpool. . . Deathstroke. . . .mercenary. . . Mercenary. . . .specializes in guns and swords. . . . Specializes in guns and swords. . . . Full mask cover. . . . Full mask cover. . .it's really common sense . Need look no farther than the name 😆
The creator is who invented the character, not who made the best run. Cause if we’re going by “best run”, then Stan Lee deserves no credit for any of his characters as the best versions of all of his characters were done by someone else. Chris Claremont saved the X-Men after Stan Lee’s version was cancelled. Same with Peter David with Hulk, Walt Simonson for Thor, Todd McFarlane or JMS for Spider-Man, Bendis for The Avengers, Frank Miller for Daredevil. See what I mean? Yeah they made the best versions of these characters but we still say Stan Lee created them right? Liefeld deserves that same recognition for Deadpool.
Great video. I wasn't aware of this at all, but definitely find it interesting. All I know is that I'm going to mail Marvel asking them to make some human characters in the next couple years so if any take off I can claim credit.
If you work on a character series which is considered amazing, that does not make him a co-creator. I have always thought, based on my own research that Roy Thomas has some input, but co-creator? I think he was just doing his job.
@@LegionofComics I managed many lawyers during my career and helped direct projects, at times adding significantly. Never thought of taken credit for the work. It was clear to my bosses that I was involved and the success was due, in part, to my involvement as manager. Yet I made sure that the lawyer received the acknowledged credit for any success. I guess comics are different. LOL
man, you learn something new everyday. i've only ever known rob to be the man behind deadpool. but, joe kelly ? that's a name i have not heard from in a long time. yes, i am having an old kenobi moment here. lol. #WeAreLegion4K
Excellent video Mark. I'm enjoying these one offs that you're doing. As for Roy the boy, it must be nice to be the last man standing (smh). It's easy to change history when everyone else is dead. Convenient timing. And it's always about the money. That bold face lie is the worst part about all of this. But I can't hate the man for figuring out how to get in on that bag 💰😂
Exactly! Thomas doing this NOW when everybody is gone and can't argue against him or elaborate on the issue? It could be coincidental timing, but it could be otherwise.
A great topic for one thing. Love you highlighting this. For me I don't think editors get a co creator credit...unless the had hands on working with the characters. But normally I'd say no to the person that just green lights the material. Great watch Mark
I think if you come up with character design, backstory and power set you are the owner- If the character is accepted and perceived differently than the OG plan, acknowledgement would be nice...
Fabian is listed as the scripter and shares at a smaller percentage than Rob. I think that is fair. Roy Thomas went decades in silence and I think his manager has a lot to do with this. Wolverine was prior to the profit sharing so those creators were on work for hire deals.
@LegionofComics fair as that was what the contract stated. At the time Marvel had a stipulation that provisioned the minimum level of profit sharing for a scripter. Rob was well aware of this and chose Fabian off of a list to take part in his run. I think that's why Rob feels so betrayed now.
If you're going to correct the record, then at least correct it correctly. Superman did not first take flight in animation. He flew for the first time on the syndicated radio show that began its run in 1940, which also gave us the famous line - "It's a bird!/ It's a plane!/ It's Superman!" The first animated short was not released until 1941.
When the Fleischers started test footage(while using rorscope), well before release, they deemed the leaping to look silly and reached out to DC for permission to let him be able to fly, as he was not flying yet in the comics. This would be well before the actual release date and airing of the show. Especially before he first took flight in comics.
@@LegionofComics Exactly so. And if the leaping looked silly, can you just imagine the "Booiiiinnnnnnnggggggg" sound effect that would have had to accompany him leaping over buildings in the radio show? They definitely made the right call when they introduced the power of flight. And - to your point in the video - demonstrated how the term "creator" can become a very messy notion after a while. [By the way, I have Hulk 180 & 181 - purchased when I was 9 years old. The boxes of comics will be the first things to go out the window if there's ever a fire!]
I like to tell writers that, as a general rule, any story can be a Batman story. When we read Batman, we’re not reading a story about Batman, we’re reading a story that that writer/artist sacrificed to the mantle of Batman. The only Batman story that’s ever existed are the Batman stories written by the original creators. Everything else has been either fan fiction, or, as I said, stories that were sacrificed to the mantle of Batman. So Joe Kelly (the best writer to ever work on Deadpool btw), was either sacrificing stories (and characters) to the mantle of Deadpool, or he was writing Deadpool fan fiction. Both of those are fine, but they’re not the impetus for Deadpool. He’s not the creator of Deadpool. However, we should be clear that this is primarily all ego and capitalist nonsense and has nothing to do with art and story. It’s about people wanting money and accolades. And there are people who should get paid who haven’t been paid in comics before. But we should be clear what we’re talking about. EDIT: I wonder, is it worth invoking the Ship of Theseus? Like…the ship still solely belongs to Theseus. Hence the name. ;) When an architect designs a building, even if the contractors give great suggestions that alter the final design in some way, it’s still clear who is the person who birthed the concept of the house.
Who's losing their mind? Roy or his detractors? Roy Thomas got credit for creating Wolverine when Logan came out, he was surprised to see it himself. No hoopla, no complaints and Roy mentioned it in an interview. What Roy is talking about with Vision is what he would do as far as credit for that character, since it did not originate with Roy. It's not supposed to be an exact equation to Wolverine. Now since he's to everyone that he's not taking money for anyone, it should be over.
@TheSpinnerRack nice. I missed that. The article I read specifically stated Deadpool 3 was the first time, partly because Marvel owns the rights now, and were willing to look at his claims.
I've always said that, that even though Schuster and Siegle created the concept of Superman, it was Max Fleischer and Mort Weisinger that developed him into the character that I like today.
For sure. When a character has been around almost 100 year, it's inevitable that many people will have a hand in shaping that character. But, do they deserve creator recognition?
The person or persons who invented the first original character are the creators not the folks who follow that add powers or changes other aspects of that creator. People who are hired to work on other characters some one else created are just that (work for hire). These comic book artist and writers need to get their act together and understand they really don't own something other people started. The comic book industry has a very long history of folks launching law suites over stuff and it always boils down to being butt hurt over money they ain't making.
This should not be an argument; the creator-- the person that thought up the idea, had the vision, and theming of the character-- has first pickings and acknowledgement. And for some reason if the look of the character is from another, then that is the co-creator. Now whether or not if the author-- the person that gave the character their first voice as in types of stories and sound, that person should be an associate, but usually this role is also done by either the creator or the artist. anyway
What I wonder about more than just creation of the character I wonder if Rob is thankful for Kelly transforming the character into the moneymaker it is today. I’d feel safe in saying without Deadpool becoming the fourth wall breaking character he is now he would have just been another character of the 90s that no one really cared about.
No telling. I know, as a kid, he was one of those characters that were just fascinating. The full mask, the ninja like suit, all the weapons. Breaking the fourth wall didn't mean anything to me. I just needed the toys and wanted to see him fighting in the comics.
If that's the case, then practically all the DC properties should say, CREATED BY MC GAINES. In fact, all comics as an entity should say, CREATED BY MC GAINES. Of course, Tales from the Crypt would say, CREATED BY WILLIAM GAINES. But then, William Gaines was CREATED BY MC GAINES...
This is a problem I have alway had with giving credit in comics. With almost every popular character they have had so many hands adding to the mix. Even with Deadpool Liefeld really didn't do much at all besides creating the look of Deadpool while Kelly really gave him the personality
Often, the personalities that have enriched our lives do not get rich themselves. It's extra heartbreaking when there's so much obvious exploitation in a medium that is designed to promote honor and Justice. Should have got a job in a factory. I mean you would have gotten screwed out of your retirement there too, but maybe you would have gotten a hand chopped off or something and could have sued.
Rob created the look that sells, as good as creatiors might be they are not the ones that sell the figures, nor put people in seats not making it to a videogame,. if you can do the previously as a writer you write books like Rowling, or King, and not comic books.
Agreed. But that isn't what the core of the discussion is. It's who is the creator. Not who had a successful or well loved run on the character. In my Superman example, it wasn't even the comics that invented kyrptonite or responsible for Superman flying.
@@LegionofComics That is more or less what i am tryinmg to say. if you as a writer want, let´s be to the point, fame and glory, you need to do your own stuff, not work on a collaborative effort and expect to get recognition.
Roy Thomas needs to be very, very careful about retroactively revising credits on comics. Very careful. He tore out pages of Conan paperbacks and underlined parts and mailed them to Barry Windsor Smith when he was 'writing' or 'freely adapting' Robert E Howard's stories for the comic series. Barry Windsor Smith could/should now argue that he deserves co-writer credit, if not WRITER credit for those comics.
To me this feels like an argument from an "AI artist" pleading for legitimacy.... I mean they DID come up with the oh so well crafted text prompts am i right? Mostly because of the timing. Wolverine has been a breakout star for marvel since the movies debuted in the 2000s. WHY is it so imperative he get credit NOW after all these people have passed away? The convenience of it is strange especially if he was apparently SO INTEGRAL as he so claims. It's just weird and seems silly. Also the example he used with Stan Lee - it seems like Stan knew the line, and didn't feel comfortable taking credit away from his team who did the bulk of the work. I think the guy is over-reaching.
@@saladinbryant3653 wolverine was created by Len and John and Deadpool was created by Rob and Fabian. So am not lost, you are lost on not understanding who created what and what my comment was about.
I think Fabian, Rob AND Joe all deserve to be credited with the creation. Rob make up the design and only drew him 3 or 4x before leaving to co-found Image. Fabian scripted him well past what Rob worked on and Joe fleshed out Deadpool into the character we know and love today. We wouldn’t have this version of Deadpool in the comics, let alone the movies if Joe hadn’t worked on the character, sculpted and shaped him the way he did.
@@AngryStraightWhiteMale that seems sketchy to me. Seems like they get credit for having a memorable time of the character, but creation of the character, to me, is a different thing all together.
@@LegionofComics we will have to agree to disagree because in my mind all Rob did was draw him. He didn’t make him into the character we know and love. That was two other people. How much credit each person deserves can be argued by their lawyers lol
@@AngryStraightWhiteMale I get your point. Rob created him, other refined him. Agreed. How many people would you credit with the creation of someone like Superman? This is why I think it's sketchy if we start just passing out the creator title to anyone who just worked on the character
@@LegionofComics If they did something really important then they should be credited with what they added. Not full credit but possibly a smaller portion. 🤷♂️ 😂
Creator is creator. Editor is editor. Inspiration is inspiration. When any creative is doing their work, they will always have input. Many creations would not be the same without the input, inspiration and evolution of the original. But in the end, the creator is the creator, those that helped, are just inspiration, critics, advisors, etc... Those that then try to claim creator status, are just envious and want a higher status for the work they did to shape the creation, despite not actually creating it. Which is understandable but wrong IMO.
Well said, as a new comic creator (I work as a chef and am slowly funding my own comics) I can say being on boths sides, both creator and just hired gun writer, only the creator should get to claim the creator like you've said. I might help shape and color the world and characters within as a hired gun, but that's not outright creating them. Now for example; My friend and artist is doing a TTRPG rule set and wanted me to type up a 12 page short story for it to release along side the game rules. I didn't create the world, or even the characters in this instance. He told me what is in the world and I was playing with HIS toys. Now, I could approach him and say I had this idea for a character and he could approve it THEN that single character would be my creation, in his world that HE owns and created. So I can see how with many writers/artists and how much time has passed, the waters can get pretty muddy. I do agree with you, the creator is the creator, the writer the writer, the artist the artist and so on down the line. [Self Plug - If you're interested you can find a linktree on my TH-cam that has my socials and a free 32-page digital comic that introduces people to a new world and character I am creating.] [Title - Okuri-Inu: The Wolf Within] [Comic Premise - Takeru Okazakii is a haunted warrior who flees his family’s criminal syndicate only to have the ripples of his absence turn into waves that threaten everything he loves. To find atonement, he must confront his past and the dark ritual that bound him to the spirit of a hellhound.] I only posted this stuff here because it is a comic space, hope everyone is having a great day. Go check out Aliens vs Avengers!
Writer and artist are responsible for creating characters. Editors are hired to APPROVE the characters.
Well said
First of all, Deadpool was created by Marv Wolfman and George Perez in New Teen Titans #2. In some ways I do understand (although not sure I agree) with Joe Kelly because Kelly really created the persona of Deadpool that most people associate with now....the 4th wall breaking Merc with a mouth. Don't agree with Roy Thomas however. Great video!
@@Sector2815 comment of the day!
@Sector2815 disagree he's an amalgam of tributes. The name because Rob was such an admirer of George, costume design based on Spider-Man, origin was a combo of the movie twins and Wolverine, with a splash of Boba-Fett. So Joe Kelly created the fact that he was a wise cracking mercenary with ties to the weapon x program? Cancer? Disfigurement? Wow a rare swing and a miss for Paul. Also the top 3 highest selling appearances of Deadpool were all from Rob so keep reaching for that Joe Kelly made him popular. In reality Ryan Reynolds made Deadpool more popular than any comic creator. And for good measure Rob created Lady Deadpool, Headpool, kid Deadpool, and the corps.
This is a ignorant comment. You can see Deadpool break the fourth wall when Rob was writing and drawing him. Also no it’s not a Deathstroke rip off, that’s dumb. He has Spider-Man’s eyes, there’s lots of other characters he took ideas from to make Deadpool. Just because he has some similarities with deathstroke doesn’t mean they are copies. Every character has lots of similarities with one another.
Deathstroke was a Flip on Taskmaster.
That is why Task Master is Deadpools besties.
@ryanwilliams7639 wade Wilson. . . .slade Wilson... . .Deadpool. . . Deathstroke. . . .mercenary. . . Mercenary. . . .specializes in guns and swords. . . . Specializes in guns and swords. . . . Full mask cover. . . . Full mask cover. . .it's really common sense . Need look no farther than the name 😆
The creator is who invented the character, not who made the best run. Cause if we’re going by “best run”, then Stan Lee deserves no credit for any of his characters as the best versions of all of his characters were done by someone else. Chris Claremont saved the X-Men after Stan Lee’s version was cancelled. Same with Peter David with Hulk, Walt Simonson for Thor, Todd McFarlane or JMS for Spider-Man, Bendis for The Avengers, Frank Miller for Daredevil. See what I mean? Yeah they made the best versions of these characters but we still say Stan Lee created them right? Liefeld deserves that same recognition for Deadpool.
Agreed
Great video. I wasn't aware of this at all, but definitely find it interesting. All I know is that I'm going to mail Marvel asking them to make some human characters in the next couple years so if any take off I can claim credit.
@@NavikvonBathory 😆 ill back up your claim
If you work on a character series which is considered amazing, that does not make him a co-creator. I have always thought, based on my own research that Roy Thomas has some input, but co-creator? I think he was just doing his job.
@AnachronicComics I feel the exact same way. Told them a direction and they made the journey.
@@LegionofComics I managed many lawyers during my career and helped direct projects, at times adding significantly. Never thought of taken credit for the work. It was clear to my bosses that I was involved and the success was due, in part, to my involvement as manager. Yet I made sure that the lawyer received the acknowledged credit for any success. I guess comics are different. LOL
@@AnachronicComics very well put. It's unfortunate that Roy is only calling for the credit of this one specific character
man, you learn something new everyday. i've only ever known rob to be the man behind deadpool. but, joe kelly ? that's a name i have not heard from in a long time. yes, i am having an old kenobi moment here. lol. #WeAreLegion4K
@joe3019772008 "old, but not obsolete" -Arnold
Excellent video Mark. I'm enjoying these one offs that you're doing. As for Roy the boy, it must be nice to be the last man standing (smh). It's easy to change history when everyone else is dead. Convenient timing. And it's always about the money. That bold face lie is the worst part about all of this. But I can't hate the man for figuring out how to get in on that bag 💰😂
@whitetiger_ccc appreciate it homie. Can never knock someone for their hustle. 😎
Exactly! Thomas doing this NOW when everybody is gone and can't argue against him or elaborate on the issue? It could be coincidental timing, but it could be otherwise.
Really great video. But as with most things... "The answer is always money".
@@JComicAvalon money makes the world go round
A great topic for one thing. Love you highlighting this. For me I don't think editors get a co creator credit...unless the had hands on working with the characters. But normally I'd say no to the person that just green lights the material. Great watch Mark
@@Evilscomics I agree. It all falls under the job description of an editor.
I think if you come up with character design, backstory and power set you are the owner- If the character is accepted and perceived differently than the OG plan, acknowledgement would be nice...
@NicksKixComics there's a lot of people that are owed acknowledgment for a lot of characters then.
Fabian is listed as the scripter and shares at a smaller percentage than Rob. I think that is fair. Roy Thomas went decades in silence and I think his manager has a lot to do with this. Wolverine was prior to the profit sharing so those creators were on work for hire deals.
@@beckermin fair as creator because he scripted?
@LegionofComics fair as that was what the contract stated. At the time Marvel had a stipulation that provisioned the minimum level of profit sharing for a scripter. Rob was well aware of this and chose Fabian off of a list to take part in his run. I think that's why Rob feels so betrayed now.
@beckermin I think that's fair, still a crime seeing Rob not listed probably in these random sources as creator. That's an issue.
@@LegionofComics at least the profit sharing check clears.
If you're going to correct the record, then at least correct it correctly. Superman did not first take flight in animation. He flew for the first time on the syndicated radio show that began its run in 1940, which also gave us the famous line - "It's a bird!/ It's a plane!/ It's Superman!" The first animated short was not released until 1941.
When the Fleischers started test footage(while using rorscope), well before release, they deemed the leaping to look silly and reached out to DC for permission to let him be able to fly, as he was not flying yet in the comics. This would be well before the actual release date and airing of the show. Especially before he first took flight in comics.
@@LegionofComics Exactly so. And if the leaping looked silly, can you just imagine the "Booiiiinnnnnnnggggggg" sound effect that would have had to accompany him leaping over buildings in the radio show?
They definitely made the right call when they introduced the power of flight. And - to your point in the video - demonstrated how the term "creator" can become a very messy notion after a while.
[By the way, I have Hulk 180 & 181 - purchased when I was 9 years old. The boxes of comics will be the first things to go out the window if there's ever a fire!]
I like to tell writers that, as a general rule, any story can be a Batman story. When we read Batman, we’re not reading a story about Batman, we’re reading a story that that writer/artist sacrificed to the mantle of Batman. The only Batman story that’s ever existed are the Batman stories written by the original creators. Everything else has been either fan fiction, or, as I said, stories that were sacrificed to the mantle of Batman.
So Joe Kelly (the best writer to ever work on Deadpool btw), was either sacrificing stories (and characters) to the mantle of Deadpool, or he was writing Deadpool fan fiction.
Both of those are fine, but they’re not the impetus for Deadpool. He’s not the creator of Deadpool.
However, we should be clear that this is primarily all ego and capitalist nonsense and has nothing to do with art and story. It’s about people wanting money and accolades. And there are people who should get paid who haven’t been paid in comics before. But we should be clear what we’re talking about.
EDIT: I wonder, is it worth invoking the Ship of Theseus? Like…the ship still solely belongs to Theseus. Hence the name. ;)
When an architect designs a building, even if the contractors give great suggestions that alter the final design in some way, it’s still clear who is the person who birthed the concept of the house.
Fantastic examples and breakdown. Appreciate the comment. Never looked at it thru that perspective.
Who's losing their mind? Roy or his detractors?
Roy Thomas got credit for creating Wolverine when Logan came out, he was surprised to see it himself. No hoopla, no complaints and Roy mentioned it in an interview.
What Roy is talking about with Vision is what he would do as far as credit for that character, since it did not originate with Roy. It's not supposed to be an exact equation to Wolverine.
Now since he's to everyone that he's not taking money for anyone, it should be over.
It was stated by Roy in the article that this is the first film he was created in. Did know that about Logan.
@@LegionofComics he mentioned getting credit in Logan.
@TheSpinnerRack nice. I missed that. The article I read specifically stated Deadpool 3 was the first time, partly because Marvel owns the rights now, and were willing to look at his claims.
Thomas mad he didn’t get credit in dead pool film.
💯
I've always said that, that even though Schuster and Siegle created the concept of Superman, it was Max Fleischer and Mort Weisinger that developed him into the character that I like today.
For sure. When a character has been around almost 100 year, it's inevitable that many people will have a hand in shaping that character. But, do they deserve creator recognition?
The person or persons who invented the first original character are the creators not the folks who follow that add powers or changes other aspects of that creator. People who are hired to work on other characters some one else created are just that (work for hire). These comic book artist and writers need to get their act together and understand they really don't own something other people started. The comic book industry has a very long history of folks launching law suites over stuff and it always boils down to being butt hurt over money they ain't making.
@@JamieFHarbert exactly
This should not be an argument; the creator-- the person that thought up the idea, had the vision, and theming of the character-- has first pickings and acknowledgement. And for some reason if the look of the character is from another, then that is the co-creator. Now whether or not if the author-- the person that gave the character their first voice as in types of stories and sound, that person should be an associate, but usually this role is also done by either the creator or the artist. anyway
Agreed
What I wonder about more than just creation of the character I wonder if Rob is thankful for Kelly transforming the character into the moneymaker it is today. I’d feel safe in saying without Deadpool becoming the fourth wall breaking character he is now he would have just been another character of the 90s that no one really cared about.
No telling. I know, as a kid, he was one of those characters that were just fascinating. The full mask, the ninja like suit, all the weapons. Breaking the fourth wall didn't mean anything to me. I just needed the toys and wanted to see him fighting in the comics.
Yea that is bonkers, someone having a good run being added as creator? Ridiculous.
@@InfamyOrDeath-__- absolutely agree
Len Wein created Wolverine then after he passes away Roy Thomas editor at marvel is claiming to have created Wolverine.
Correct. 6 years after his death. He is given co creator credit.
If that's the case, then practically all the DC properties should say, CREATED BY MC GAINES. In fact, all comics as an entity should say, CREATED BY MC GAINES. Of course, Tales from the Crypt would say, CREATED BY WILLIAM GAINES. But then, William Gaines was CREATED BY MC GAINES...
Now we're stuck with the infinite regression 😆
This is a problem I have alway had with giving credit in comics. With almost every popular character they have had so many hands adding to the mix. Even with Deadpool Liefeld really didn't do much at all besides creating the look of Deadpool while Kelly really gave him the personality
ive read new mutants 98 numerous times. Deadpool def had the personality. Joe Kelly for sure expanded it tho.
Often, the personalities that have enriched our lives do not get rich themselves. It's extra heartbreaking when there's so much obvious exploitation in a medium that is designed to promote honor and Justice. Should have got a job in a factory. I mean you would have gotten screwed out of your retirement there too, but maybe you would have gotten a hand chopped off or something and could have sued.
@@aggressivelyrelaxing155 at least a gold plated watch after 35 years of service to the company.
did you see that the Ghost Machine team has a CGC signing event you can send books in for? Prices are about what you'd expect.
@BigMoneyGripMCV oh yeah! I've got a ton of stuff signed by the team. I need to add Ivan's signature to my Ashcan tho. I'm considering it for sure.
I always knew Roy was credited for helping create Wolverine. I thought that was always known. maybe i'm crazy
Editors often are. Which makes his cry for credit all the more strange to me.
@@LegionofComics ha, everyone is dead so he's like... i created that bish!
Rob created the look that sells, as good as creatiors might be they are not the ones that sell the figures, nor put people in seats not making it to a videogame,. if you can do the previously as a writer you write books like Rowling, or King, and not comic books.
Agreed. But that isn't what the core of the discussion is. It's who is the creator. Not who had a successful or well loved run on the character. In my Superman example, it wasn't even the comics that invented kyrptonite or responsible for Superman flying.
@@LegionofComics That is more or less what i am tryinmg to say. if you as a writer want, let´s be to the point, fame and glory, you need to do your own stuff, not work on a collaborative effort and expect to get recognition.
Maybe Moore and Gaiman are e3xamples of what i mean, they got into the game through comics, but ended up doing their own thing,
For sure
No wonder Liefeld is sharing this video.
I haven't seen anyone share it lol
Aren't Marv Wolfman and George Perez the creators of Deadpool?
Many could and do say so 😆
Roy Thomas needs to be very, very careful about retroactively revising credits on comics. Very careful. He tore out pages of Conan paperbacks and underlined parts and mailed them to Barry Windsor Smith when he was 'writing' or 'freely adapting' Robert E Howard's stories for the comic series. Barry Windsor Smith could/should now argue that he deserves co-writer credit, if not WRITER credit for those comics.
Exactly
when one is getting fucked over you are bound to loose your mind
@@jaynunya5136 who is getting f***ed over in the situation?
I still have my mind.
And we are all grateful for it lol
To me this feels like an argument from an "AI artist" pleading for legitimacy.... I mean they DID come up with the oh so well crafted text prompts am i right? Mostly because of the timing. Wolverine has been a breakout star for marvel since the movies debuted in the 2000s. WHY is it so imperative he get credit NOW after all these people have passed away? The convenience of it is strange especially if he was apparently SO INTEGRAL as he so claims. It's just weird and seems silly. Also the example he used with Stan Lee - it seems like Stan knew the line, and didn't feel comfortable taking credit away from his team who did the bulk of the work. I think the guy is over-reaching.
Over reaching indeed. AI will also be a topic in an upcoming video. So much to unpack with that nightmare.
An editor shouldn't be credited as a creator. That's definitely a stretch.
Major stretch
Roy deserves credit. Just like Stan got plenty of credit for the editorial work he did. Co creator is fine
A weak argument, if that the case then Tom King deserves credit on Co creator on Batman for adding depth to the character.
When Tom adds some depth that will be an interesting conversation.
@Matt-pc5cd not liking the direction of the story is one thing. Pretending Tom doesn't add depth is crazy.
@@rosssutton6324 we are talking about the 1st appearance of Wolverine. Where are you getting lost?
@@saladinbryant3653 wolverine was created by Len and John and Deadpool was created by Rob and Fabian. So am not lost, you are lost on not understanding who created what and what my comment was about.
I think Fabian, Rob AND Joe all deserve to be credited with the creation. Rob make up the design and only drew him 3 or 4x before leaving to co-found Image. Fabian scripted him well past what Rob worked on and Joe fleshed out Deadpool into the character we know and love today. We wouldn’t have this version of Deadpool in the comics, let alone the movies if Joe hadn’t worked on the character, sculpted and shaped him the way he did.
@@AngryStraightWhiteMale that seems sketchy to me. Seems like they get credit for having a memorable time of the character, but creation of the character, to me, is a different thing all together.
@@LegionofComics we will have to agree to disagree because in my mind all Rob did was draw him. He didn’t make him into the character we know and love. That was two other people. How much credit each person deserves can be argued by their lawyers lol
@@AngryStraightWhiteMale I get your point. Rob created him, other refined him. Agreed. How many people would you credit with the creation of someone like Superman? This is why I think it's sketchy if we start just passing out the creator title to anyone who just worked on the character
@@LegionofComics If they did something really important then they should be credited with what they added. Not full credit but possibly a smaller portion. 🤷♂️ 😂
@@AngryStraightWhiteMale oh yeah, I 100 percent agree. Their contributions should be recognized.