5 Cars That Make Me ASHAMED of Being ITALIAN! (The Worst Italian Cars)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 พ.ค. 2024
- Italy has made some beautiful and brilliant cars, here are the 5 worst Italian Cars ever made. Ferrari 512M, Lancia Beta, Fiat Argenta, Alfa Arna and Maserati Quattroporte 2
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Had two Lancia Betas. 1600 coupe and 1800 saloon. Both brilliant, well balanced handling and strong engines.
I'm disappointed that you picked on the Lancia Beta and repeated the old Russian steel story. The real reason for rust in the early Betas was down to Italian industrial relations, which resulted in several months delay in building work, resulting in completed bodyshells standing unpainted outside waiting for a bridge to the new painting line being completed. Even so Betas were no worse at rusting than many of their competitors at the time (especially Japanese, which were often rusted before they even arrived in the UK), but Lancia's policy of buying-back affected cars backfired when the company engaged to destroy the cars left them in a field and the Daily Mirror and Esther Rantzen got to hear about it. There are still surviving early Betas with no rust problems at all, it was just a lottery whether you got a good ne or a bad one.
If you really wanted to pick on Italian rust-buckets, you should have chosen anything with a Zagato body, including Lancias. Zagato's rust-proofing was non-existent, and anything out of eyesight didn't even get any paint!
i immediately paused and scrolled down to the comments when the old Russian steel story came up - glad someone had already mentioned it!
Zagato also used thinner steel panels for weight saving, so the rust could quickly eat through it.
I.once read a story that in the late sixties the French and Italians agreed to allow more scrap iron being used in steel production.
In a way it makes sense, early Renault 16's, Peugeot 404's and Alfa Giulias made till 67/ 68 were much tougher. My 75 Giulia Nuova was a rust bucket as was my 73 R16.
While I had a 404 from 68 for over 20 years, this car was garaged but hardly rusted
@@Rammstein56 oh come on, I love Peugeots to death but the 403,404 and 204 rusted pretty badly in the UK. We must have had 20 Peugeots through the family in the 1960s and 70s.
First time I heard about the Russian steel. But bodies sitting outside in fields waiting for paint etc I thought that was the Alfa Sud and not the Lancia Beta?
Glad there are some sticking up for the Beta. Early cars were pretty bad, a lot due to lack of paint and no factory rust proofing. Later cars were better, Witness that there are many more later cars still around than the the early up to 78 cars. Jack I think it was unfair to single out the Beta re rust. Plenty of earlier Lancia’s had issues and probably the top one was the AlfaSud, how many of those do you see?
Too much repeat of inaccurate barstool chat about the Beta, a truly great driving car, years ahead. Can't agree that the Berlina is ugly, and it's not a hatch by the way. The rust issue got out of hand due to media interference, Lancia simply tried to do the right thing about a small number of early cars that had an issue with the subframe mounts in the floor, some of those cars were up to 6 years old at the time. I don't think that's any real evidence of Russian steel being the culprit, it's just a theory, the cause of the rot in the mountings was poor water drainage which was cured by redesign.
The Beta platform is the heritage of many great Italian cars, Delta, Thema,164 etc. and the suspension design was copied world wide by other manufacturers.
Lancia Beta's were very good cars, infact I would say light years ahead of many competitors. The handling was exceptional compared to many others. The camuffo designed rear suspension went on to be a staple of many successful japanese cars. The fiat twin cam was a masterpiece and the styling of the betas was great.
Loved the Beta HPE, one of many Italian car designs that have withstood the test of time.
I totally agree about the handling. We had a 2000 back when we were young and poor. We lived in the Tasmanian (look it up) countryside at the time - before speed cameras - and drove everywhere fast. Often too fast. I came around a blind bend one day on a road I knew very well, and thus travelling too fast, to find a dog crossing the road in front of me. Stomped on the brakes, which would have been a death sentence in any of the cars that we had previously owned. The tail came out, but it was totally controllable. A little bit of opposite lock and away we went, having missed the dog. Great car, but ours rusted away very quickly.
I totally agree.
I like Alfas and at that time I loved the Alfetta but the Beta was a good contender.
My girlfriend had an HPE in late eighties and we travelled all around Europe with great satisfacton in that beautiful car.
@@radman3206 I loved my Beta until the passenger seat fell through the floor. That girl never did come on another date.
@@stephenbrookes7268 Handy option if the date went badly.
The beta was a fine car ,it had bad steel at first after 78 they were extremely well rust proofed.Ford suffered with rust much worse at that time,but not a thing was said
I can confirm this, i have tested it myself. I bought a tired 1982 Trevi in 2006 and have since left it in a mountain field. It is still in one piece, not as rotten as one would think.
Italian car that was insanely rust prone: Alfa Sud
But it is true that many European car brands rusted fast and badly: Peugeot 204 and 304. They rusted badly but on top of that had serious head gasket problems.
Japwnese as well: Datsun 100A and 120Y: oh dear... lots of rust.
Basically all cars had poor rust protection back then.
It was an optional extra so when you bought a new car you immediately had the car undercoated and cavity sealed
(Tectyl, Dinitrol, WaxOil, etc)
I remember my shock at discovering a heap of rust in the rear of my four year old Honda Accord in the early eighties. I live in a dry climate area of Australia. Not excusing Italian cars for rusting, but they were hardly orphans in that respect.
I totally agree .ref the rust issue ford have always been bad ,ask any MOT tester who is the worst for rust ,most will reply Ford , other manufacturers have virtually eliminated it .
Pretty agreeable analysis but as an Italian in the UK I would have a couple of pointers. 1- With today's eyes, it is easier to laugh at a 77hp diesel Argenta however, by then many saloon makers were just experiencing diesel options whilst Fiat was quite ahead in the game. The Argenta was indeed an ugly copy-paste of the old 132 but in terms of engines not really behind after all. 2- In the earlier 70s many carmakers were going for the fastback body design; one can think of Citroen GS and CX, VW Passat, Talbot Alpine and in '72, the Beta I think was rather beautiful and as you mentioned well kitted. I would add that felt quite sporty and with a torquier engine than comparable Alfas of the era (we had it as a family car). Obviously, the use of cheap steel tarnished the brand beyond any possibility. I testify that my late father had to rivet stainless steel plates on the front suspension mount to make up for the flimsy rusty attachments. Some of the most horrible choices were actually made in the late 90s and early nouties both in terms of design and in engine reliability. Ciao
Indeed the Merc 190D had 60bhp! My old man must have been lucky with his Beta. He bought a new one in 1979 and kept it till 1983 doing around 50k miles in north west england through many snowy winters with no subframe corrosion. It was wayoyled from new so maybe that helped, he sold it to a friend who had another 3 trouble free years with it.
Just a thought. Fiat 131 is very over looked would love to see someone test one now days. Especially 2.0 twin cam. My dad had one in 1983 and had a 5 speed box too.
@@benzinapaul7416 Dad used to say that the Beta on Pirelli P3 was the best car he drove on skying resort trips in terms of grip and handling. He had some 20 different cars from Italian, german and french brands
@@filiannuzzi5871 Argenta very overlooked too, and this clip wont help further… 😊
Argenta had the same engine/boxes as the 131 plus of course the more powerful injection versions. Quite funny actually being so close in size.
Like the 131 Compressore there was the Argenta Volumex.
Well, at least the Argenta was a much cleaner design than the 132. And pretty much everything was revised, suspension etc
I always liked the larger Fiat saloons that seem to have disappeared.
The 130 with its v6, and then the 124 and its 131 successor as well as the 125 and the 132. That would make very nice content! Also certainly the Argenta! Very underestimated cars in my opinion. I think the unexceptional cars that now have the classic status, all seem to be forgotten to much really. And that is a shame I think. The sedans and saloons and family cars from back in the days should deserve more attention and love in the entire community. Too bad you never see them, never loved, never restored, and for always gone… the channel HubNut did a wonderful review of the Arna and in fact it is a cool car honestly! He tells about the joint development and how Nissan tried to introduce a hothatch in Europe. I like the channel a lot because it is all about cars that no one, or, should I say the majority, doesn’t care about.
!
The Lancia Gamma is once again a story of what could have been if it wasn’t such a rust bucket. It has some neat features that were really impressive for its time! That was the first car I thought of when seeing the notification yesterday on my phone from this video.
Cheers from Belgium!
Yes I think it was simply that Fiat was not a brand you would buy a large car from. Years ago big cars could be a good workhorse, the old Peugeot estates for example. Over time it changed to big cars needing to be an expensive "prestige" brand. The likes of Ford, Renault and Fiat that did not carry a prestige brand lost out as a result and gave up on big cars.
I had a Fiat Croma which was probably seen as the poor relation in the Lancia Thema/Alfa 164/Saab 9000 joint venture. It was a cracking good car, in the UK they were all sold with top spec and it was really great to drive.
Now it seems your big car needs to be German to cut it at the golf club.
I too loved the look of the larger Fiat sedans! I've never driven one or even been in one as they were rare as hen's teeth in Australia, but from what I've seen, I loved the styling.
I must say, I absolutely loved the Argenta dash in the video! I could just sit in the car and look at that all day.
I really liked my Italian cars, but from an earlier era, the 1960's, I had a 1961 Fiat 1800, a 1962 2300, a 1964 1500, and after that a 124 Sport, they were all great drivers cars and not boring cars like our local Australian offerings of the day.
But in the main they were not broadly popular with the motoring public and were classed as "orphans", once you owned one you were stuck with it. Good content Jack.
It happens to every good "family" ...there are some bad examples, but that does not alter the general positive feeling about italian cars. At least I haven't regret it....after owning a 33 (for 18 years), a seicento sporting (21 years until now), a147 (18 years until now also), a Mito (10 years) & a 166 2.5 V6 24v (6 years until now)....
My dad was a big Italian car fan. He had many cars including a Fiat 131 Mirafiori, also a Fiat 128 3p Berlineta. The car I most remember though was the rust bucket Lancia Beta hatchback. I remember a report about the rust issue featured on ‘That’s Life’, that program with Esther Rantzen, remember? Anyway after watching it the next day we went out and opened the bonnet and looked down at the area of rust concern. It was completely fine, no rust at all. However within a few months the rust appeared first a small spot, but it grew bigger, almost live in front of your eyes and it got bad after that very quickly. Only about 6months later looking like a complete disaster. I can’t remember what happened to the car. He got rid of it though…
One of the best cars we have had was 2000 Fiat Marea 1.8. It went up and down the motorway for 95000 miles only thing that ever went wrong was the exhaust falling off at 80000 miles. Great car
Was it the original engine ?
@@malcolmhardwick4258 Why not? My Marea had done 180,000 when I sold it and was still going strong on the original engine. It wasn't the best car I've ever owned, but it was pretty good.
Yes, great car, I had a Marea Weekend SE 2 litre diesel. Had a split tailgate which was very useful. Sold at 190000 still going strong after towing my Lancia Fulvia race/rally car, plus loads of kit all over UK and most of Europe. Still averaged over 40mpg.
@@malcolmhardwick4258 95000miles is nothing on a Fiat. Bmw or Audi - thats a different matter!
I bet the tape deck lid broke on it, they all did ...
Great video, so sad it all went wrong for Lancia, they made beautiful cars back in the day.
But the cars didn't sell well enough to make the brand profitable. I read somewere that Lancia actually already started it's economic decline with the Aurelia in the 50s. The brand used more money on development and production, that it was able to earn on sold cars.
People take the Micky out of Italian cars and have done for years .What the Brits were making was no better had less style and used older tech .Most cars years ago were rot boxes
Lancia Beta 2000, 1977 - I had one which I bought second hand in 1981, I had it for one year. Apart for the rust, it was a very good, and quick car in it's time. Good road hold, I'm living in Norway, and at the time served as a young officer in our Northern parts - so I got to drive it in severe winter conditions a lot. It is actually one of my favorites of all the cars I have owned (Audi's, BMW's, Mercedes's, Range Rover, Volvo+++)
Great video Jack, you should consider making similar videos for German, French, British, Japanese and a entire slew of videos on the worst American cars!
Yes.. if this does ok I will!!
Old American rubbish that handle like a bowl of soup. Certainly the Arna or the Argenta would be much better!
I totally agree. How many german or englis cars of te 70 - 80 are still running today? they were junk too
Well done Jack!! Your knowledge and research are outstanding.
May I humbly suggest that this and the car review directions are excellent ways to keep #27 moving forward.
I had a Fiat Uno 45 with the FIRE engine and it was great fun. Non-interference engine, cambelt broke on way to work, towed to garage, picked it up after work with new belt fitted, cost me about £40. When I changed the oil, the old oil looked as clean as the new stuff. Replaced it with a Rover metro, huge mistake.
I had a 45 for my first car that engine was a little gem
The Ferrari 400i and the 365 are much better looking in the flesh. I saw a Electric blue example with a white interior and frankly it was quite stunning. The design and auto transmission was satisfying a US market demand. They are going up in value currently and some examples are fetching a tidy sum. Great video nevertheless. Cheers.
Totally agree about the 365/400/412. Love those sharp lines and the big V12. These GTs do now seem to be more desirable. Relatively rare too.
Yeah they are beautiful cars. A late ABS, manual 412 would be something…
The irony being that they never were officially imported to the US. If you wanted one in period, you had to individually import and Federalize them yourself (same with the 512BB).
@@OpiceSF Interesting...Nothing can be considered normal when dealing with the machines from Maranello.
The 400i was a truly beautiful coupé, one of Pininfarina's masterpieces IMO. If I could've afforded it, I would've bought one in a heartbeat. I myself drove an 82 Lancia Gamma Coupé 2500 for more than 16 years, it was my big love. Same sharp, timeless elegance as the 400i, a masterpiece of art made by the master of car design.
Great content, very interesting, thank you Jack
It's a shame you keep hanging the same old, tired boat anchor around the neck of the poor Lancia Beta. As others have mentioned, the "Russian steel" chestnut is a popular, but largely unfounded legend. While true that very early Beta saloons had rust issues (albeit primarily experienced in the UK), the problem was almost immediately corrected and any Coupe or HPE or later saloon is as solid as any other vehicle of the period. (I rarely hear this criticism leveled against, say... the contemporary MGB or Alfa Romeo Alfetta, both of which were more rust prone than the Beta.)
Most people who castigate the Beta, in any of its body styles, have probably never driven one, because if they do they will find it lively, stylish, and very well put together. Compared to a Toyota Celica or MGB GT or early Porsche 924, the Beta feels refined and quick and beautifully balanced. Not only is the Beta not one of the worst cars ever to come out of Italy, it might be one of the most overlooked and underrated. Until now, that is. Prices for good cars are still low, but rising as the model finds favor with people who don't buy into all the old hate.
Well said.
I always liked Lancia, and it’s always been associated with rust just like a lot of 70s, 80s Italian cars but were they any more rust prone than domestic Australian Ford Falcons and Holden’s? You would get rust right in the middle of a bonnet on a Ford Falcon despite our non rust promoting conditions unless you were near a beach, but Lancia being a more international car and subject to more rust promoting conditions
in reality everything in the 60's to 80's rusted like crazy, not even porsche was spared of this. The issue mainly with the italian cars at that time, was that just like the UK car brands, italy was buckled under severe strikes and union actions, crippling the quality of the cars alongside the horrendous steel...the latter being rather funny, given the soviet built lada's were actually a lot less rustprone despite also being built out of soviet steel, so I think the union actions had more of an impact on the overal quality.
Way back in the day I owned a 1978 Corolla that I bought in 1984 (when a teenager!!). Mechanically amazing, but it ended up costing $1,000 a year to get a pink slip .... $1,000 in the ‘80s!!!! I lived on the coast in Sydney so rust was bad, but my Corolla was a rust-nightmare. My brother’s Datsun went the same way. All 80s cars were rust buckets 😂
The Russian steel myth is.... a myth!
I did wonder why your Italian pronunciation was so good 👍 always look forward to your uploads, Jack. Great as always, I've never had an alfa but I'm tempted I must admit. Just as a second car and with premium AA membership 😄
A long time ago, I came back from the motor show raving about the Lancia Montecarlo. My father immediately traded in his Morris Marina TC for a pastel green Beta. Not what I was hoping for at all.
Having said that, it never rusted.
Great video Jack. Your various videos have changed my view of Italian cars, pity about rust and reliability issues but the likes of that Busso engine is just fantastic!
Agreed that the 512M looks absolutely dreadful. It’s a crime really. The 400 though, even if it’s a bad car underneath (I have no idea), looks superb to my eyes. Understated elegance and such a pure design. It’s not shouty but I love the lines on it.
I also think the 400 is a handsome car and can't understand the criticism it gets. All I can think of is that it's more a grand tourer than a sports car and perhaps they just don't understand its virtues. Isn't it really a update on the daytona?
this right here. i see so many people saying the 400 is a bad car but just look at it. i think it looks fantastic and as a person who can only look at it and not drive it, i think its a brilliant car
I’m a mechanic who specializes in European cars in Connecticut. I’ve worked on many Ferrari’s (I’ve owned a 1984 308gtb and now own a 1988 328gts). The Ferrari 400 started life as the stunning 365 GT4 2+2 and then became the 400, then the 412 until 1989. They’re really beautiful cars: very long, very low, very wide. The sound of the V-12 is unbelievable. The front seats are great, and they’re very comfortable (unless you’re stuck in the beautiful back seats), and despite their large size, they’re easy to drive.
NOW the bad news: they’re ridiculously complex cars to work on, and the electrics are shit. Ferrari’s do require a TON of maintenance, but these cars are known as the lemons of the Ferrari tree for a reason.
Even if you could afford one, don’t make the mistake of buying one. It’s like marrying the most gorgeous woman you’ve ever seen, only to find out that she’s a murderous psychopath.
I actually love the looks of the 512M! 😍😂
I live watching your videos Jack :) so enthusiastic.. Makes me smile every rime I see a notification.. Keep up the great work... :)
Thank you Anthony!
Rust was pretty common in the era before the '90s. BL had their problem with "Friday cars" - they were stripped for painting at the end of the week, and sat around for a day or two until the "line" was restarted on a Monday morning. Only cars of any make I owned that were not rustbuckets were made in the mid-90s and later (excluding two with glass-fibre body shells - GRP doesn't rust). I am currently driving a 15 year old, rust-free car with 90K on the mileage (74K of that is "my" mileage). Every car I have ever owned has sat out in all weathers, driven with salt on the roads, and never been garaged. Of course, if you only drive on dry days, and park up a car in a garage all winter, then ANY car will suffer a lot less from rust.
Totally agree on that Testa Rossa update. I hated it from the time I saw it in magazines. Just awful hodgepodge of a reboot. That said, I think Ferrari has kind of lost the plot in modern days. Too much tech to the point that they can't be daily driven or even every weekend driven without spending lots of time in the shop. Plus all the super cars these days look the same to me. FWIW my all time fave Ferrari is the 250 Lusso. Mmmm yes indeed!
The Beta saloon was a rather nice car. I drove a couple of them. Yes it was the rust that killed them, but in those days Renault wings were rusting through in three years so they were not alone.
Bravo Jack, bel video. Was waiting for the Duna, though... Ciao!
You’re right.. I totally forgot about the Duna
I worked as a car salesman at a Vauxhall garage in 1978. The dealership next door was Lancia. I watched in horror as Beta's were returned for a refund. The dealer principal of the Lancia dealership was Italian. There were tens of Beta's rusting away at the rear of the garage. Not long after this debacle, it changed to a Honda dealership. All very sad.
Indeed.. what a shame
The Beta had a bad reputation because the mainstream media pushed the story particularly hard mainly because the Beta suffered rust on the engine mounts. However, many many other cars from the period rusted terribly too. Think about Vauxhalls, Fords, VWs (especially the early Sciroccos), BMWs (6-Series!!), Renaults etc etc. They all rotted terribly. Conversely, I owned a 1984 Alfa Romeo GTV6 2.5 that was already 6 years old when I owned it and it had no rot and original paintwork plus it was a very reliable car (I admit that trim quality was not good though!).
Italian cars and the Lancia Beta in particular had a bad reputation because the mainstream media pushed the story particularly hard mainly because the Beta suffered rust on the engine mounts. However, many many other cars from the period rusted terribly too. Think about Vauxhalls, Fords, VWs (especially the early Sciroccos), BMWs (6-Series!!), Renaults etc etc. They all rotted terribly. Conversely, I owned a 1984 Alfa Romeo GTV6 2.5 that was already 6 years old when I owned it and it had no rot and original paintwork plus it was a very reliable car (I admit that trim quality was not good though!).
ok but BL Marinas Allegros and Princesses hadn't a better luck
Great Video and photos of the worst cars, I would say that the 127 Sport or Strada I once owned were quite bad, not tell us your top 5 best Italian cars Jack, my favourite would be Lancia Gamma Coupe
The Lancia Gamma Coupé was a timeless classic Pininfarina masterpiece of art and an excellent and pretty fast cruiser at that time. Owned the 82 2500 iE variant from 85 to 2001, when I finally had to let it go with a broken heart, this after over 260k km (probably world record with that car, considering how delicate the engine was). The maintenance cost me a fortune and finding spare parts was a nightmare, but the joy I had driving it was worth every cent spent. Despite I had usually a separate, "official" daily car in my garage, next to a sports car or a classic US muscle car for the occasional fun ride, the Gamma was the one I drove most. It was my only true love, and still can't forget it.
From my perspective out here in Oz, we never received the Arna (thankfully), we did receive a small number of Argentas and yes they weren’t good. However, i take issue with your comment that Fiat havn’t made decent large cars. Not so i say, go back in time to the 20s and 30s and you will find that they made a range of decent large saloons for the time. Come forwards to the 60s and even into the ‘70s and both the 2300 and 130 were excellent large cars by European standards. As to the Beta, both the coupe and HPE were actually very good cars and attractive at that. Rust sure was an issue but so many cars in the ‘70s rusted away. As to your comment on the Ferrari 400, actually it’s a very good car by both Ferrari standards let alone as a GT. That V12 upfront, it’s svelte styling both externally and in the interior just oozes class. Fiat’s 130 coupe followed in the same mould as the 400 and was universally praised for its elegance. Which is not something you could say re the fat Testarossa and variants of that model.,
I would have added the Alfa 2600 sedan and later the Alfa 6 as Italian styling misfits to your list, and perhaps the Fiat Regatta etc.
the alfa 6, now that's a good choice...it had the blandest, most un-alfa styling ever, which when taking in account the alfetta says a lot, considering the latter at least had a charm and crisp image at the time of its launch, where the 6 just looked like a boring, clinically designed car. As for Fiat's rep with big sedans... remember the 80's Croma, that was a very decent and seriously underrated big saloon as well.
The real problem with the Lancia Beta was the rusting of the area around the engine mounts. For obvious reasons these cars were not safe and Lancia bought back the cars and in most cases offered money against a newer version. This is what happened with our original 1300. Lancia took it back and we then bought a newer and facelifted 1600.
They were a brilliant car with fantastic engines and performance. The gearboxes were not great though and in cold weather it could be impossible to get it into second gear. I actually broke the steel gear stick while trying to engage second one evening. Another cold weather incident saw the nylon carburettor linkage snapping on Christmas morning while I was on the top of the Pennines, in snow. I ended up jamming some old rag into the carb linkage which held the carburettor open and got the engine running at about 3000rpm. I limped home controlling the speed only by brakes and gears! - Happy Days!!!
A great video Jack. Brilliant! and all the best. Vint-tro ✌🏼
Agreed on that last one, definitely a mishmash. Now that you mention it, the 512M does look like a 3000gt/gto 😂
It does doesn’t it!!
I guess Ferrari mistook the Mitsubishi GTO for their own and copied their homework badly.
Interesting review and I finally learned where the Arna name came from.
One observation: I really appreciate that even if you speak perfect English with British accent, you still pronounce the name of the cars with an Italian pronunciation but LANCIA??? It’s “Lancha” 😉 I know you know it….
I know… can’t help it for some reason.. only Italian maker I pronounce in an English way!!
great video, I think you enjoyed making it.
the Nissan Cherry N12 was a very efficient unexciting car (my mum had 1), the Alfasud (I owned 2) was a masterpiece but the Arna was the sort of car an accountant with no idea about cars cocktailed into existence.
considering what Bertone started with the Maserati Quattroporte 2 is actually a very decent looking car; I've never found the SM at all pleasing to the eye.
the Lancia Beta range were gorgeous cars. I remember the saloon car (Berlina) you discuss in this video, as a child. it was a real head turner and light-years ahead of what BL Ford Vauxhall and Chrysler-Rootes were producing here in the UK. it seemed to be in the same market segment as sports-executives like the Triumph 2500 and Rover P6 but they were far less sophisticated mechanically and less efficient designs. thanks to an apprenticeship in the motortrade I worked on a drove a few Berlinas and Coupes (they'd been Waxoyled from new lol) and was really taken with how technically advanced and refined the Betas were.
in my humble view, Italy produced many of the best designed and engineered mass market cars of the 60s and 70s and could have cleaned-up if only they'd considered rust in cold countries, used better electronics and bothered to build the cars better.
Cheers Jack, persuasive video, can't really argue with your choices. Passed my test in a Nissan Cherry, wasn't asked to do a hill start which was a relief as it couldn't pull the whotsit off a chocolate mouse.
I must defend the Alfa Arna if only from my experience. A flat 4 1500cc with twin downdraughts and lift off oversteer for under £450 in the day. Nothing looked that shite but provided so many smiles per mile. The only car I didn’t get pulled over in and never had a producer. I’d have one tomorrow 😁
I had totally forgotten about the 512 M but yes it's a really bad face lift. Especially, as you point out, the mix of new soft round lines and old sharp straigth lines. And the wheels are hideous.
Yeah, not a great design. 512TR looks pretty nice though.
Your garage makes a great studio, that Texaco sign looks fantastic!
That Lancia dashboard is interesting .
That was a pretty good rundown. I have never been an out and out Ferrari man but do love the 308 and older cars like the Daytona, Dino etc. I was therefore racking my brains as to which Ferrari could be so terrible but you really hit the nail on the head with your choice.
I've read that the story about the substandard Russian steel (in some variations, Poland is blamed) is apocryphal and that the rust problems were entirely due to dodgy Italian production processes: bare metal shells were reputedly exposed to the elements for long periods and then simply put onto the line. Also, it would be extremely odd for international trade to be conducted by what would be - essentially - "barter" at the level of an individual company. All Italian cars of the period suffered from the "tin worm" in those days: I had a Fiat 124 Sport Coupe that crumbled to dust before my eyes!
Not true about barter, it was a common practice back then. Ireland swapped fish for Nigerian oil, Ford swapped cars for Brazilian cow hides and there are plenty of other instances if you look into it.
@@FFM0594, I didn't say it didn't happen - just that it would be "extremely odd" at the company, rather than national, level. Of course, I could be wrong!
the barter arises from the fact that FIAT had built and organized the Russian production of automobiles.
The Italian state was the guarantor.
The agreement provided that in the face of the HUGE Russian investment (which also included a new city for workers) FIAT and the State (Alfa) would import at least steel.
The Russian steel story is untrue.
This is the best TH-cam channel ever! Keep up the great work 👍
Wow, thank you!! 🙏
I owned a 1975 Lancia Beta Coupe in the Detroit, MI. It was my favorite car, and I’ve owned 21. It was one of those cars that just fit perfectly. The engine was torquey, the transmission precise, and it handled beautifully, in the dry. Owning it was, however, not without issues. In three years it consumed two front wheel bearings, the front strut inserts, two sets of brake pads, and the headlight/ turn signal multi-function switch. The parking brake cables rusted solid every winter, eventually I just ignored that. Nevertheless, despite a complicated twin point ignition system and two stage carburetor, it never failed to start and run beautifully, even in -10 F temperatures. A fond memory.
I had a Lancia Beta 2000 coupe.. and loved it. went like a bat out of hell. l lived in Tasmania at the time. The rust worm hadn't got into then. The only thing I really hated was the indicator stalk was on the left meaning I was always switching the wipers on when doing a turn. I reluctantly swapped it for a series XJ one. The main thing I regret most of all was that I never photographed the little bugger.
Which accelerated faster?
You or the roo? 🦘💨🏁
Great video, as always. I remember my dad had a brown Fiat Regata which was handy as it camouflaged the rust. Keep up the great work, Jack
Fun video idea and a nice conversation starter! Really like the Arna lookswise. To balance, I recently met a Gen1 Quattroporte fully restored for the first time, a real suave car👍
Haha this is quality!
I grew up in the 80's and 90's in a house that loved italian cars......says it all that a Lancia Y10 was my first car 😅
I particularly resonate with the Arna, I remember at the time we had a 33 Green Cloverleaf and my Dad was really not diplomatic about the Arna at all....even to the point where Arna owners (on the rare occasions they appeared) would beep and wave at us (it happened between Alfa owners back in the day) and they'd be firmly ignored haha
A fun list - I’d personally put the ARNA at number 1 myself! I’d also add the uninspiring FIAT Stilo in there, the awful 500x, the Lancia Dedra, and the car that seemingly no-one, not even the Italian government wanted, the Alfa 6. I personally like the mad Mario Bellini designed dash from the Trevi myself!
I wonder why you add the Dedra to your list? From my experience, I've owned three of them, they are amongst the best cars I've ever owned (perhaps that says something about all the others!).
@@saxon-mt5by I have a 1993 Dedra Turbo Brilliant car
There’s nothing particularly wrong with the Dedra - I think it’s a decent car. I included it in the list though because it was, by Lancia’s standards a bit dull, and failed to set the UK market alight, hence it being the last Lancia offered for sale on the UK market. Had it been been a more interesting car, with less frumpy styling, and more to differentiate it from the FIAT it was based on, we might still have Lancia in the UK now. Similarly, the later Lancias also failed to stamp their mark in the same way that the great Lancias had, and so the Dedra to me marks the beginning of the end of this great marque.
Great video with very interesting facts.
It’s a shame that Lancia has almost disappeared… unbelievable after a very successful rallying career and a portfolio of historical and iconic models.
Marchione is to blame for that. He drove Lancia in the ground trying to safe Alfa-Romeo
@@jacohauptfleisch935 I completely agree
Thanks! And yes such a shame!
@@jacohauptfleisch935 The problem started way before Marchionne (who joined Fiat in 2004). Lancia's rally successes were deliberately interrupted in the 1970s to leave space for the main brand with the 131 Abarth.
@@dlevi67 But then what about the subsequent Lancia 037, S4 and Delta Integrale? True, all these were Abarth skunk works projects but the badge and marketing were Lancia.
Great content Jack!
Didn’t realise you were Italian. I just thought you were just an italophile like me 🙂.
Good list. I think I agree with you on the 512m Ferrari. With their resources they should have known better! You should do a top 5 favourites too. Bet that will be a harder list to put together. 😀
Good idea!
I'm of Italian heritage too. and my dad had a miriafiori. but he always favoured the citroens of the 70s.
I have driver or owned 124, 125S, 126, 127, 128, 131, 132, 238, Ritmo, Regata, Uno and a recent 500 XL. The absolutely worst of the bad bunch were Ritmo and Regata. Everything in those were bad: engines, gearboxes, bodyshell, electrics - absolutely everything. The best ones have been 128, 131 and the fairly new 500 XL which was a really pleasant surprise. 132 was horrible. 125 (and later many Fiats and Lancias) had the DOHC-engine (originally 1608 ccm) and that was a great engine. Also the 1300 engine of 128/Uno was a great engine with a super short stroke 55.5/86 (Stroke/Bore) and you could tune it way beyond 10 000 rpm. But the bodies of all the old Fiats - pure junk, criminal shit in fact. Mind you the worst electrics Ive had in a car was - surprise surprise a Volvo 960. You’d never expect to have problems like that in a car designed for the Nordic countries. The plastics in the electricity just became brittle in time.
I also had a Lancia Prisma 1.6 (that very same DOHC engine) for a while and it was actually quite an ok car but not enough suspension range - too stiff for winter and a the worst ISA standard seating position.
As contrast I will list the best cars Ive owned: Nissan Primera 2.0, Audi S8 and - of course a 911 - which is quality-wise the absolutely best car Ive owned. Ive also owned a couple of Toyotas and a HOnda - no soul, but very reliable, almost maintenance free. The DOCH 1600 Corolla engine and the 1400 Honda engines were fabulous. You could really rev them like a race car. Never missed a beat. The Civic was a crap car otherwise.
The best Italian car Ive ever driven … probably the Fiat 500 XL. It was actually really good, practical, low consumption, good handling. Never driven a Ferrari, sat in a couple.
But, in all honesty, Italy is the country of style. No other nation comes even close. da Vinci, Michelangelo, Caravagio, Bertone, Gandini, Scaglietti, Pininfarina, Giugiaro, Zagato, Forghieri, Gucci, Armani, Laura Pausini, Italian coffee and kitchen, ice cream, Tiramisu, Montalbano, Caterina Murino, Sofia Loren - all style and aesthetics.
The Prisma was a stylish unassuming four doors. Loved it in the last trims with Alcantara, tinted windows and alloy wheels. Unfortunately, they used the Ritmo/ Strada suspension set up which was under dimensioned for the type of car was aspiring to be
Spot on! At last someone who knows what he’s talking about. The Regata (brother to Prisma) wasnt too great either. However, being one of very few (appearently) owners of a Mk2 Argenta 120ie I can say they did fix most of the flaws of the 132 - I’d NEVER have a 132 over my Argenta. Still, an unfinished diamond in that: lowering it by a metre or so 😊, moving battery to the trunk and add some front camber (easy, shims) it’s quickly a great handling, fun, comfortable and fast 5-series competitor. I’ll sell my Z4M Coupe, Alfa 75 but never the Argenta.
Mine here: www.garaget.org/?car=1475
The original Lampredi DOHC was 1438 cc, and was in the 1966 Fiat Sport Coupe/Spider. I have a one-owner 1979 Spider, with about 260000 miles/420000 km.
@@bobplyler8057 Ok. That one I missed. But now that you mention Lambredi, that rings a bell. My father’s 125 S was the car that I really learned to drive with when I was about 9-10 years old. Besides the engine it had a nice 5 speed box with a precise short throw.
@@bobplyler8057 Yup! Or actually, the 124 Spider first, then 124 Coupe in 1967.
You are right, when they redesigned the Testarossa into the 512 they absolutely ruined the styling of a car.
For me, being a old fart Swiss with Italian roots and coming from a family who drove Alfa Romeos and even Maserati, I was very much in love with Italian cars.
My Italian friends of my early childhood were extreme Lancia enthusiasts. Alfa Romeo versus Lancia, can it get more Italian than that?
I could afford only FIATs as a young man. I was really hurt by the quality problems of Italian cars of the Sixties and Seventies. Most Italian cars were mechanically great vehcles with beautiful or playful designs but with terrrible qualtiy problems when it came to rusty bodies and very questional electrical systems. Rustbuckets like the Alfasud and Lancia Betas were at least very much fun to drive before they crumbled to pieces.
To me the Arna was one of the worst Italian cars ever. A nightmare for any Alfista! When discussing with a former Alfa Romeo mechanic I recall asking: What was the name of this horrible mixture of Alfa Romeo and Nissan?
I am so oldschool that I regarded the Testa Rossa a terrible design falldown from the beauty of the 512BB.
Talking about rust problems of Italian cars. Those problems started a long time before the collaboration with Russia: the more exclusive the vehicles, the more thy seemed to be victims of rust. I remember the Iso Rivoltas. They were gorgeous but unfortunately also terrible rust buckets. To me the first Iso Grifos are probably the prettiest cars ever made.
A friend used to have his Dino restored about 30 years ago. When the restorer worked on the body, he discovered a tiny plate riveted on a hidden steel panel . it read: "ferro FIAT terza qualità". Meaning: FIAT third class steel.
Your Italian accent is wonderful Jack! Italy is my favourite country to visit, been to many places but keep going back to the Amalfi coast 🇮🇹
Likewise. Sorrento and the Bay of Naples area is the my favourite place on Earth.
@@IU3EVR the amount of times a Lancia’s failed it’s probably being said like that on purpose 😂👍
Interesting video Jack. I still think the Beta was a great car on the wrong side of history. Looking forward to the next instalment on the 308.
omg that dashboard...like a family of woodpeckers attacked a picnic table that had blown over in a windstorm
Great video Jack!!! I agree with you but I would have shared the first place with the Ferrari Mondial.
i had a nice little alfasud with a nice sounding xorst on it (standard) lovely car , but became more biodegradeable by the day, eventually i had me feet thru the driver`s floor.............YABBA DABBA DOO !!!!!!
My mum bought an Alfrasud 5M new in 1977, despite a Ziebart treatment the front doors had split from their frames in 12 months. Apparently it was a riot to drive but sadly didn’t last without family… what a pity, even a box of scrap Alfasud would be worth a fortune these days …
@@Lot76CARS tell me about it, all those mk1 escorts i had in the 80`s (1300e/1300xl/1300 estate with 1600 xflow engine and 1300 gearbox, very nippy, blew it up on the motorway) and a lot more , worth a fortune now 😪😪😪😪
Had a few betas in early 80's , only ever had 1 fail it's mot on corrosion . The boys in Ford offerings of the day at the local haunts couldn't get close to the 2 litre twin cams with front wheel drive and all round disc brakes. Went on to run delta GT ie after that . Just to correct you the beta saloons weren't a hatchback they were a boot that looked like a hatch so god only knows why they made the trevi. ?.
Can I also say that I think the Beta was, and, obviously still is, wrongly derided. I had a 2 litre saloon at the time, my wife loved it so much that she bought a 1600 and a friend also bought a 2 litre saloon. All three were superb all rounders and NO rust problems on any of them. No more knocking the wonderful Beta, PLEASE !!
haha "It's a new Mitsubishi" Thats a great line
The final nail in the head might have been more appropriate lol. The 132 has a hint of bmw in its styling, the twin lights and hockey stick window line. I remember my grandmother had a 128 3P in the 70s, she's 95 now but still remembers it as the most unreliable car she ever had. The Italians also gave us some of my favourite cars of all time, the Stratos, the Delta, the Countach and my particular favourite Italian car when it comes to styling, the Cisitalia 202 from the 1940s.
Once my Argenta was all debadged and got a parking ticket marked ”Bmw” - needless to say there was no reminder ticket coming in my mailbox! 😊
(Once they checked the reg.nr w the system)
@@pereldh5741 I'd never heard of an Argenta until I watched this video and I thought I knew about cars too ! I've owned a few Italian cars, some hilarious stuff like the marea with the 20v 5 cylinder engine, it was gold with a towbar and roof box and could humiliate lots of stuff from the lights, it even managed to keep up with an old whaletail cosworth once but it was one of those cars where things could just start operating out of the blue, your windscreen wipers and washers could just suddenly start operating as you were humiliating some audi doody from the lights.
I had an alfa gtv spider and that was a beautiful car but was never right and I got sick of chasing it so swapped it for something.
@@scottishcontentcreators Hehe that 5-cyl is indeed a masterpiece. I had a Fiat Coupe 20V Turbo for 12yrs. Other than being great for long trips to Italy etc, it was great fun for overtaking 911’s at trackdays. BTG 8.36 on Nurburgring etc.
Last years ca 340hp, still no issues at 274000km (garage burned down).
@@pereldh5741 those coupe turbos are a hoot, I've had a shot of one before and I remember it being mental fast. Was it not one of Chris Bangles first full car designs with those slash lines, actually a nice looking car, in red it looks like a ferrari, before he went on to ruin the bmw brand design with things like the dame Edna 5 series. Did you lose the car in the fire? Do you upload stuff about cars?
Paul
@@scottishcontentcreators Sure Paul, just click on my profile! Nurburgring-laps of both my Coupe and the Argenta. :)
The Fiat Coupe is actually the ONLY car Chris Bangle penned himself, prior to ”head of design” at Bmw. That 5-series was a japanese fella and the Z4 by dane Anders Warming (have a Z4M Coupe I quite like).
As a kid I quite liked the look of the Argenta. My friend's dad worked at Fiat, and I remember a sense of excitement when the Argenta was launched. I'm sure it was rubbish though.
😄😄😄😄 - yes it was truly awful!! But marketing can drum up excitement initially.. Webb for the worst cars!
It was an unfinished diamond in that it had to be lowered a lot.. Then great for both trackdays and long trips. Wish I could say the same about the successor, the fwd barge Croma
I have a low km Argenta and its a great car to drive. ive Citroen CX Jag Xj a Saab 900 all of the same era. and the Argenta is as great to drive as any of those i have that were deemed very desirable at the time.
Love your choices. Poor Maserati, the child who got passed from one foster home to another, but never found real love. I'm so glad the Maserati Biturbo wasn't on your list. As flawed as they can be, I really liked mine. If you can give us some clues as to the future of Fiat, Lancia, and Alfa under the new Stellantis ownership, that would be great.
Great video and you definitely need to produce videos on the equivalent lemons of the German and French car industries.
Most countries don’t even have a car brand to be proud of 😕
Im proud of all Italian cars 🇮🇹
Bang on the money with the 512M! I thought the same when I first saw it, that a Japanese manufacturer had copied the side strakes! A truly awful design from a manufacturer who shouldn’t be doing anything like that!
I have a soft spot for the 132 2000 of the plastic bumper era, as my dad had one, they were much improved in handling by then, but they rusted too, as did many cars of the day. The Argenta though, what a mess, horrible and awkward looking!
The Arna, well, yes it should have been drowned at birth, and the Maserati too! As for the Beta, I don’t mind the styling, especially when you compare it to the competition, we had the Austin Princess for gods sake! It’s a shame it rusted so badly as it ruined this market for them, with only cars like the integrale keeping them here at all. A good assessment overall I’d say.
You are spot on about Lancia vanishing here in the UK, but I lived in Italy for a while a few years ago, and Lancia is still sold there (you probably know this) but they produce that hideous Ypsilon, which is their 'only' car oddly which tbh, I find an affront to the heritage of the Lancia name, and maybe just as well it's the only car they produce now, sad days indeed.
I enjoyed the video Jack and agree with your choices.
Tell me though that the garage signs behind you are not faux copies.
They are.. I can’t afford £2k on decoration!
They are at least hand painted
In the late 80's, I was a realy proud and very young ( German ) owner of a Fiat Agenta 2.0 ie. Central lock, power windows, head rests in the back, check panel, five speed and an engine which realy likes to reve. It was easely able to keep up with any hot hatch of that time. One of the best features nobody had ever copied till today: dark tinted sun visors manualy gliding out of the headliner at the front and side window.
The biggest problem: rust
I know another unique feature:
Intermittent wipers with memory! Maybe you remember. If you recently had them on, they would start normally. But if been off for the day, they go 3 wipes first, then intermittent. If only 1 minute ago; 2 wipes.
Never seen this in any other car!
(Still have my Argenta 120ie, manual of course)
Couldn't agree more about the 512M. It ditched so much that was amazing in the TR for a messy, fussy design. The wheels, in particular, are truly vile. Not a shred of delicate elegance.
There have been other less glamorous Ferraris, like the Mondial, but at least its shape was a product of packaging necessity and the detailing was neat.
As always your video's are full of enthusiasm for the motor car, whether good or bad. Fiat MK1 Panda was pretty bad to Jack.
Nice video. Unfortunatly in the Arna section You added a Alfasud Sprint dashboard. It' s a detail, i know. 😀
Really??? So sorry, must see what happened
Bravo Jack nice video thanks👍🇬🇧
Great video by the way
Another great video Jack! I was sure the Ferrari Mondial would have made the list, but agree the F512M is bloody awful too!
I watch pretty much all of your videos, and this one is definitely at the top.
Thank you!
Australians seem to ignore that the S1 QP Maserati was indeed the fastest 4 door sedan in the early 70[s
At least, with those tail lights, the 512M would look like a Ferrari driving away from you in the dark.
In 1985 aged 22, I bought a 1982 Lancia 2.0 Beta Coupe as my second car ever, the first having been a BMW 2002tii. I bought it at three years old with only 23K miles on the clock. It had cost the original owner £11, 000 and I paid……£1100! In such tatters was Lancia’s reputation in the UK that they used to go for a song! AND, mine genuinely had no rust on it because by then they’d made improvements. It made no difference to public opinion though.
Unfortunately, at the time I was a poor student with neither the money to pay for nor the awareness of the need to service cars…..and at about 33K miles, I broke it…terminally! In hindsight, I think what had happened was the timing belt had slipped/stretched and smashed up the valves etc.
I ended up giving that car away to a friend who did actually fix it……until it caught fire one day at a petrol station! 😱🤣😱
I went back to BMWs again after that and have owned over 70 of them since! But, that Lancia was such a good looking little car! 🙂👍🏽
Late to this party jack ...thanks for the vid ...can you do a video on the Uno ? I. My friends group we had a tomato coloured uno ( low spec) that got passed around for ten years ..( D reg) ..what a car, ultimately reliable to its death at 150k but abused loads .....we called it the Unos of doomos ...cheers keep up the good work
That blue Fiat with the round headlight looks nice. My first car was a Fiat Panda from early 90’s. Had loads of fun in it.
Didn’t know about the Japanese Alfa Romeo.
Wiring looms made of spaghetti, structural paint and undersealed with pasta. Got to love mass produced Italian cars. The Fiat 124 Coupe was one of the first cars to have a glued-in windscreen. One day I had to brake heavily in my 1973 model, and though the car stopped the windscreen didn't! Worse I ran over it!!
The aperture flange had rusted away leaving a few rotten teeth like protrusions. It was great fun to repair. But I loved the car, so I did it, despite it being worth nothing in 1980.
Agree both 124 Coupe and the 125 Special were great, fun cars
Very entertaining, Jack.🙂
A great video - could you please do a video on the Fiat 125 and another one on the Fiat 128?
Thank you.
Really enjoyed this video. Although i dont agree with your choises. I love the 512 TR, the Beta Berlina, the Argenta and even the Arna. They are not perfect, and sure the Arna is really not a good car in any way. But they all have character, a certain charm that other cars dont have. I do agree about the Quattroporte 2, that is really bad. If i had to make a top 5 I would really struggle.
My uncle and aunt had a Trevi when I was a kid.
I just loved it, especially the interior with all the exotic warning lights 😍
When we went on vacation to scotland in the early 80s my mom didn't react fast enough and crashed her Renault 11 into the Trevi. That totaled the back end, and my uncle decided to not repair it after the vacation, and got himself an Opel Ascona 😪
And I reckon the 2007 onward Punto has aged really well. Much better than a Fiesta or Corsa
A fascinating insight to your thoughts. I could listen to you all day long pronouncing the names of Italian cars as it sends a nice shiver down my spine. I've never been attracted to Italian men as their dark hair and features don't appeal but you Jack, are 🔥
The Lancia Beta was what Chrysler / Simca bench marked the Chrysler Alpine against, planning to return Roots/Simca brands back to the premium volume car sector of the market. However Chrysler's cost cutting philosophy meant the 5 speed gearbox and Twin cam engines were all dropped ending up via several twists and turns, such as a version for the UK fleet market using Avenger running gear to what was just to use the minimally warmed over oily bits of the Simca 1100. The result was the only thing they got close to matching the Beta with, was the Alpines ability to rust, as Chrysler also cut the rust proofing to the minimal levels they thought the market woukd stand.
i found a 12v mini bilge pump the other day jack,would you like it for the lexus?
😄😄😄😄😄
ONE QUICK NOTE: The Beta saloon is not a "hatchback." Admittedly, the fastback styling makes it look like one, but it has a proper boot.
If you owned an Arna in Italy you were a candidate for derision! It was despised. Mind I thought the Lancia Trevi would have made the list. Great vid ! Plunged me back to my teens.