Italian Horror Story - Collapse Of The Greatest Car Nation On Earth
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ค. 2024
- Once the pride of Italy and some of the most advanced car manufacturers in the world: Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Lancia and Maserati have all been losing market share for years. Why is it that a country that has the very successful ferrari cannot seem to stop its auto industry from shrinking? in this video I examine the history of the Italian auto makers and suggest three reasons why I think Fiat and others have continued to decline..
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I enjoyed this piece very much. I am the ex owner of 2 Fiats, 7 Alfa Romeo's, 3 Lancia's and 1 Maserati. Also I raced a 2000GTV in the Trans Europe Trophy. Needless to say I love Italian cars and it is so sad to see their decline. My next car will doubtlessly be an Alfa Romeo Giulia. And a big middle finger to SUV's.
qv 2.0 turbo benzina et least.😃
@@bartsimpson8616 Yes and a Beta 2000 coupe volumex and a 8.32.
@@gordonkachuk5457 😄😄 those 2 are so special class cars , beta coupe'77 in gray color , and 8.32 beautyful so discrete and classy.like your taste Sir
I love my Giulia and I’m sure you will too!
i hate SUV´s with a passion
With the rise of South Korea and China, Italy has bigger issues to tackle in car making. Like Italy, we British have many legendary cars and brands, but they are no longer British, or have gone completely. The industry keeps evolving. Great video!
Well don’t complain about the increasing Aussie meat & grain imports and the balance of trade. Because we used to buy heaps of pommy cars until 1972. 🦘
Korea actually produces great cars and are innovative. They are on the same level or even better than Japanese cars. Chinese cars are for mostly domestic use and are of low quality. Please don't compare South Korea to China. It's very offensive.
motorcycles too.
TBH, as an Indian, the only British brand that is still my envy is Rolls Royce. And that is obviously not because of its cars.
Never heard of British many legendary cars and brands
As an Italian, I love the fact that every italian word is pronounced correctly.
As an American, appreciate your olives and pasta dishes. 😏
he said he’s Italian
Italian called jack
@@gorillachilla Jack is to raise. Jack is to "lift up". I am sure Dorcey is a pseudo example. 🤪
Italians can't pronounce English:)
It is an incredible decline. Fiat produced fantastic small cars in the 80s and they managed to release so many attractive models in the 90s too. But then seemed to hit a brick wall and these days it is rare to see any Italian brands on the road except the 500.
Fiat and small cars is kind of an everlasting binome. Sadly tho they often made a few models per timespan. In the 1930s they came up with the Fiat 500 Topolino and that was it. Then came 1958 and here it was the Fiat 500 (the famous one) and 600 and those were their two cars (there was also the Fiat 500 Multipla but that's more of a small family car). In the 70s came the 126 and 127 along with some reshaped 500 and 600 in the 80s. From the 2000s onwards they said "HEEEYYYY, WOULDN'T IT BE CRAZY COOL IF WE MADE BIG UGLY CARS THAT ONLY APPEAL A BUNCH OF SNOTTY MORONS????"
And so they did
@@Momo_Kawashima actually they made the Giardinetta of the 58 500 and the Seicento (600) Multipla version
As a current owner of a 2019 Guilia Q4 here in the US and having owned multiple FIATs and a Lancia (a Beta Coupe bought new in 1981) I can say that here the dealer and service networks are pretty abysmal and have been for years. Whereas BMW and Mercedes provide stand alone dealer and service facilities (although often owned by conglomerates) Alfa/FIAT make do with being just another brand sold and serviced at a few Chrysler/Jeep/Ram “superstores”. So you get nil personal service, minimal brand or model (much less heritage) knowledge. Service, beyond routine, is either “best guess” or “we have to contact district office for help”. And as far as brand advertising, it’s virtually non-existent. Great discussion. Thanks.
Yes, my friend. The dealer network here in the USA was never a serious operation. If you remember, they were vestiges of Hoffman Motors and then Fiat-Roosevelt. AR did not establish its own independent import distributor until late in the game.
The importance of a service network is greatly multiplied if the product has inherent design flaws that require constant attention. Unfortunately, Fiat and especially Alfa ranked down in Land Rover territory in terms of reliability, at a time when they needed to be up there with Toyota… Those poor Chrysler dealers (already far from stellar in terms of service & repair) never knew what hit them.
@@arusso3 The last of that network went down when Alfa first pulled out in 1990. The current Fiat-Alfa dealer network was set up by Marchionne's FCA in the early 2010s and is now fading fast, with the Chrysler-Dodge-Jeep network picking up the slack for current owner support in markets where the Fiat dealers shut down.
@@steverolfeca The European owner experience was very different compared to that of us Yanks. In the 1950s and 1960s only European exotics had the combination of overhead twin cam engines with multiple carburation. In the AR world, there was no US spec 1968 models due to the new DOT and emissions standards. To meet the new standards, the SPICA mechanical FI system was fitted. An ingenious solution that did not decrease performance but required special training. Something that AR was VERY slow to distribute to its dealer network. Then we have the tradition, a good one, that a significant proportion of the public likes to bring their cars to independent shops. These shops had no training and had no technical info available to them to be able to service these cars. I saw thermostatic actuators removed by dealer techs because they were "faulty." Nobody told drivers that after a start in cold weather they needed to wait until the oil temp registered warm so as to allow proper lubrication of the top end. etc, etc. The obvious happened. Dismal sales with no product and the exist occurred in 1995. Fast forward to 2010 and what you stated occurred. Many small faults, especially electronic and battery related and very slow response from dealers.
@@arusso3 what is AR., or SPICA ?
A significant turning point in Fiats fortunes was the internal fight between Cesare Romiti and Vittorio Ghidella. The later was a cars man pur sang and a visionary and had turned Fiat and Lancia around in the eighties.When Ghidella lost the internal fight and left the Fiat Group it was a huge loss which they never recovered from.
Ghidella was a car person and the right person for the job. Romiti was there with the push of the Italian politicians and to execute their intrinsic interest. They sat on short term plans and content with the share of the internal market (which was slowly decreasing btw). In the meantime German and Asian car makers were sharpening their tools. One just need to observe the Italian offer in the 80s against the 90s decade and then the 2000s. Loss of focus rather than capacities IMO. Fiat group was not keen to keep a competitive CEO and team of designers/ engineers; whereas government subsidies for ageing cars good enough to keep going for a few years. Quoting an Italian writer who’s name is unknown to me unfortunately, eco incentives to sell cars and furlough to follow for the same workers who built those cars. A system played and repeated for a few years
@@TheEurostyler Indeed, The demise of lancia is the one that hurts the most. I've driven Lancia for more then 30 years now and i do hope they will get a restart under Stellantis.
Fully agree - and there was a similar turning point before: Fiat had its best time around 1970, when all their new models were best in class. And that was the end of Dante Giacosa's time, who had shaped Fiat's technology for 40 years. Then came the 70ies, when competitors were accelerating, and Fiat was stagnating - models were replaced too late and with only little progress. The 80ies saw the recovery under Vittorio Ghidella, who knew that the car business required more investments to remain competitive than the Agnelli family was willing to spend. That's why he left. And then Fiat started to withdraw from the upper segments, one after the other, and become more and more dependent on the low-margin small vehicle market. The rest is sad history.
@@jochenkreusel131 Bravissimo ! In 1970, Fiat had a product in every segment imaginable from the 500 to the 130 sedan, coupe', Dino ecc. Here in America we could never understand why Fiat and AR 9especially Fiat) never took the US market seriously. They had the products and Americans had the money. The Asian invasion had begun but they were just building market share improving and Americanizing the cars. Their focus was on export while, as you correctly noted, Fiat et al as well as AR focused on market share. When the oil embargo hit the west in 1973, American sought after fuel efficient cars. By that time the Asian manufacturers had an advantage. Next is the incredible shortsightedness of the Italian politicians. They refused to allow the country to prosper. As the wealth of the middle class increased, they just saw it as an opportunity to tax and tax some more. instead of encouraging growth, they punished it. Beyond reasonable. Then there is the also short sighted sindacati or labor unions that operated (and still do) with the blessing of organized crime. Lastly was the inattentive Agnelli family who only looked at their bank accounts and rear view mirrors instead of forward. The one thing that they dd do was to bolster production in Poland and Brasil.
…unfortunately this failure scheme lives in the most brands produced in Italy. It seams obvious that they are not aware of being successful when they put their passion of engineering to the product! "Passion“ is what drives winning products. And Italiens have a lot of this in their engineering genes! As soon as you start asking for ration, passion is dropped completely, replaced by a strange urge for saving every penny they can, sacrificing quality in a horrible way! Let‘s hope Alfa pulls through! I have a Giulia Veloce after being a complete BMW freak (yes, the company, not the car made me turn away). And it is by far the most passionate and quality satisfying ride I ever had! GO ALFA GO ❤️
When a whole industry is just one company, it shouldn't come as a surprise when it fails horribly.
As a fiat lancia mechanic of the 80/90s and lancia wrc mechanic based in Ireland I truly love this brand. From my first cars 127 128 to super 85 ritmo 4 my uno turbos and also my very own integrale I then moved to German cars a decade ago. 1 1/2 years ago I got a tjet punto as a non runner and a 500 also as well as a ducat campervan. I have fallen in love again with the brand and refuse to sell any of my fiat's. I have also spent many weeks in Italy over the last 8 years. Thank you for this video.
I was in Italy last week and was amazed at the number of Japanese and Korean vehicles there, not to mention French and German cars which is a little more to be expected.
Yes I was there a week ago - - italians don't love their cars as much as they did up to late 70s - - _why I wonder
@@rob5197 Because 1) They're not ours anymore, pretty much every italian brand is owned by some foreign group. 2) They suck compared to Toyota for example, once they step up their game, people'll buy them again.
@@ZeroutlawRBLX 3) Italians are masochist, xenophiles and brainwashed, for the most part.
@@rob5197 Italy's birth rate is 1.3! And it has like 30% youth unemployment! It's a wonder they even have cars!
@@anti-emo4721 unemployment rate in Italy is 8.6%, with the North at less than 5%.
Alfa Romeo Stelvio, is amazing. I’ve one’d 2018 and currently 2021 I must say, it’s true Italian in every way, the design outside and inside is outstanding,the vehicle really stands out among the others. Build quality is superb, I haven’t any mechanical or any other problems with it. Power and most importantly handling has no match among the other in the class. Bravo Alfa Romeo, excellent job. All roads heading to Rome. Italian means number one.
The "true Italian in every way" is actually made in Italy?
I would also add, when the workforce of a company has an attitude of, "We're too big to fail; the government will bail us out", as I think happened at one point, it makes it pretty difficult to improve efficiency.
From a Modena born-citizen and ex-FIAT employer I would like to address why Ferrari (and Lamborghini or Pagani) are (in my opinion) still shining and the general Fiat brands are striving.
Much has to do with a general laziness and short-termism so popular in the Italian culture in which people often try to get "the same results as their neighbors, working less" (thus demonstrating their cleverness)
This led, as you said, the Agnelli Family to make factories in poorly industrialized (but highly unionized) Italian areas just because they were incentivized by the government with subsidies or the quality problems encountered because they had to save money at all costs, not thinking of the possible nefarious consequences on the end customers. Again...for me.. Marchionne's cost reduction policies of sharing platforms with other manufacturers by introducing models without a strong commercial identity.
Now, why did Ferrari start to succeed again during the Montezemolo era? Because it did not take shortcuts: neither in quality nor in costs... which were popular in the 80s under Fiat direction.
Lamborghini (after Audi purchase): same thing... and Pagani? same thing..
Maserati is a complete different story, often stifled by its mistress Ferrari, who at the same time feared its potential.
The supercar brands also managed to live because people moved from other cities in order to go to work for there... such much was the passion...
For Fiat? Given the ridiculous corporate leadership you went there if you couldn't find anywhere else or if you were paid more than the market average.
Marchionne main merit was the Chrysler deal, the problem was that while he was in charge Fiat's corporate culture changed very little.
Grazie Davide!! Commenti veramente interessanti e di certo la Ferrari è un caso a parte…
Very interesting.
The Lancia Thema, was offered with a V8 made by Ferrari! Now if we are talking about halo cars of the era, the 8.32 was the king of all.
I am not an Italian of origin, but an Italian car enthusiast. I think they can produce absolutely pieces of art in cars, no matter the category and right after the success, stop production of it and go back to making nonsense. Why? Well maybe they wouldn't be Italian if they didn't! :)
Great content my friend keep it going!
Essays have been written on this subject my friend. It's an enigma.
As an Italian, the Thema 8.32 was disappointing. It sounded nice, but in terms of handling was behind even the 2.0 litres turbo version. The V8 had like 10-20 horse powers more the the two little, nothing that a little bit of tune could not fix in the two litres version. They could have designed the car from the beginning with a 4wd system derived from the Delta, making it quite less tail happy, but they didn't. Plus it was heavier. It had better bespoke interiors, but if in the 1980s I were around and could afford to buy a sports sedan, I would have gone with an M5. It was quicker, better made, way more balanced.
@@alessandrorona6205 fully agreed there.
But the 8.32 was the ultimate halo car.... anyway!
:)
@@alessandrorona6205 The Thema was, as you know, one of the first offsprings from a joint agreement dating back to the late '70s between Fiat-Lancia, Saab and Alfa Romeo. The Type Four Platform, as it was called was designed to accommodate different suspension and drive train possibilities. The overwhelming majority of the models produced were FWD. The FWD platform despite its sacrificing performance was the most efficient platform to allow generous internal pace. I agree with you comments regarding the Thema 8.21. It was the most expensive of all the iterations of this shared platform. I believe the focus Fiat wanted was to have distinctive offerings and to showcase a flagship models for each of the three brands under the corporate banner. Lancia had been lacking a flagship for 15 years. At the time, i had the opportunity to drive all four iterations of the platform As far as as a 4wd, the 164 Q4 with the Busso 24V 3.2L, was most balanced and sporting of all the platform's. In the USA it was available at a base price (albeit with many options standard as was customary for imports) of $45,000 for only a couple of model years before AR left the US market in 1995.
Lancia Thema was a great car, italians really loved it
Sounds like a very plausible analysis Giacomo ... thoroughly enjoyed it! (Also you reminded me of the time in 1996 when I was thoroughly out-accellerated in my 2 liter turbo V6 GTV coupe (with its 220 or so HP) by a BMW M3 with its 321 HP ....)
Great story Jake. I always liked Fiats, Alfas and Lancias in Australia but they just never 'clicked'. Great getting the story from the where it all happened.
Thanks for watching Russel! Big wave to Australia 🇦🇺
Some the reasons they didn't really 'clinked' in Australia Russell was in when local manufactures the brought out big v8s in the mid sixties. They were better suited for the long distances in Australia @ were cheaper to buy
@@stephencallil6512 57.5% import duty at the time didn't help either. You can make big thumping V8s behind a tariff wall - which I love by the way - and probably more suitable to dirt road / Aussie outback.
A friend of mine had a Alfa Sud Sprint which I thought was simply stunning.
As a former Alfa 146-owner with many fond memories of that car, it's really sad to see the current state of the Italian car industry. Though a very capable business man, I tend to credit that to Sergio Marchionne. In 2005 Alfa and Fiat still had quite a broad line-up of attractive and competitive cars, with the promise of the new 500 and 8C competizione and though already a victim of an ill-considered strategy, there were still chances to make Lancia great again. Why they decided to not make a production version out of the fulvia coupé-concept for example was beyond my comprehension.
After 2007 it seems Marchionne invested all the Fiat money in the takeover of Chrysler and new models that came few and far between were mostly not what the market was calling for at that moment. I mean, though maybe a pleasant car, what was the purpose of the Alfa 4C, when really there should have been a decent 159-successor? With a sportwagon version of that, that even the giulia, when released far too late, didn't bring with it? Why did Alfa leave the giulietta lingering for that long without at least a thorough facelift? Who decided that to not release a new Fiat punto would be a good idea? But yeah, the lack of SUVs and to deny that the future of cars is increasingly electric, is maybe the most obvious sign of not being in sync with the times. And there were also all those ambitious plans for future models which became kind of a joke because you increasingly knew the majority of the models in them wouldn't make it into production.
Perhaps all of this was in light to make FCA as interesting/profitable as possible for a takeover by a bigger company, but with such a strategy (or lack thereoff) over such a long period of time, they were very actively ruining their brands. To the point that you can raise question marks on even their future as Stellantis-brands in these now very challenging times. It saddens me to say that I find it very doubtful that any of the 3 brands will ever regain something of the status they had in the 1950s to 80s. So, more than any quality issue, I would say odd strategies in the 2005-'20-period and the lack of appealing new models in that time are the prime reason for the decline of specifically the Fiat brands. With apologies for this long rant. 🙂
Fulvia would be another nail in the coffin. No profit out of this kind of project would be made. Regarding Giulietta and Punto those were mistakes. Acquiring Chrysler with success of Jeep we see now was not that bad in the end :). Now future looks quite promissing. With PSA platforms it looks good for most segments and they are about to revive Lancia on those. Fiat released great 500 electric, which sells are looking really good. Transformation to electric can be Alfa reborn, as they were clearly lacking on combustion engine side - no efficient petrol for Giulia to give a quick example. Maserati is about to release electric Folgore GranTurismo well ahead of competition and another electric cars will follow.
Genau. Fiat hat ja nur noch den Fiat 500 und jetzt auch erfolgreich als 500 e und den Transporter Ducato . Viel, viel Arbeit für Herr Tavares bzw. Stellantis. Zumindest soll der Punto nächstes Jahr 2023 wieder kommen . Und Lancia ?? Und als Fahrer eines Peugeot 306 Cabriolet 🇨🇵👍 bedauere ich es sehr das es weder von Peugeot, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Lancia ein Stoffdach Cabrio oder Offenen Spyder mehr gibt, bei der jahrzehntelangen Cabriotradition dieser Marken.
403,404,204,304,504,306 Cabrio
Fiat 124 Cabrio
Und die offenen Alfa und Lancias ' aus den 50ziger, 60zigern und 70zigern ✌️
Fun fact the Alfa 146 is not pronunce onehundredfortysix but is pronunce in italian (centoquarantasei) the c is pronunce ch and the e is pronunce a (hey) the a is pronunce i (hi)
lesser SUVs they make, the better it is
@@Atomus87 please don't put the word electric to Alfa Romeo and Lancia
Having worked entirely in the tooling industry up until retirement and having dealt with Italian mould toolmakers and variously visiting them etc., I was always impressed with their engineering knowledge, and quality. Italian cars were often a bit different, and this was attractive, one thinks of the 246GT, ask anyone what their favourite design feature is on the car, and there will be many opinions. The best bit for me is the tiny door handle, beautiful in looks and operation, pure Italian. However, competing with German design, quality and longevity is and continues to be difficult for most European manufacturers.
Indeed that seems to be the case.. attention to detail in quality seem to be where the Italians have long failed
Indeed the Germans are tough competition with fit and finish. But...after a few years, a lot of German cars face staggering repair bills. The definitions of quality are difficult.
Marchionne was the master of the deal, buying Chrysler for next to nothing but didn’t invest in Fiat, just focusing on scoring the next deal to deliver the fiscal results. The sad part is that the Chinese would kill for brands like Lancia, Alfa Romeo and Fiat and arguably could do what they’ve done with MG. The Gullia is in a shrinking segment and good as it is, won’t deliver the volume. On a positive note Tonale looks very pretty!
@@dosgos .The idea of German cars being superior in terms of reliability is a fallacy. I like to buy something that works as it should, be reliable and last many years without too many problems. That is why I have always bought Japanese cars. Mostly Toyota, but also Honda and back in the days before Renault messed them up, Nissan.
@@doktoruzo It's German marketing! These can be great cars if your company covers the car and all maintenance. Not so much if you are stuck with the maintenance, particularly if the car is more than 2 or 3 years old. And especially if the car is out of warranty.
I bought in 1982 a brand new FIAT 124 Spyder in cherry red that was absolutely gorgeous. However, I had to sell it two years later at about half the price that I originally bought it for because it was a piece of junk - very pretty junk, that is. The main problem was that the oil pump got damaged a couple of times and it had to be towed away to the shop, and had major and costly repairs done, plus it had several issues with electrical gremlins. So, I got fun of for having bought a Fix It Again, Tony. I almost bought, a few years back a “Fiata” 124 Spyder but I hesitated in doing so because I feared of having similar results as my 1982 124. Bottom line, if FIAT doesn’t improve its quality control of all its vehicles, then it’s going to continue to suffer dismal sales in the future. And it will take FIAT a long time of consistent improvement in quality control in order for its bad perception to turn around.
The thing is, FIAT has improved a lot and did many other manufactures.
The new 124 as an example, uses a 1.4 FIRE engine. FIRE engines are Fully Integrated Robotised Engines. They’re the most reliable engines I’ve experienced so far.
In the American market, reliability and durability are qualities that go into a car buying decision. This why Asian built brands are so dominate not only here but around the world. A number of car manufacturers have tried and failed miserably because badly made vehicles are just junk. Sadly even US made brands have tanked and died, not just British, French and Italian car manufacturers. German car brands sell well because of perceived quality but are total maintenance headaches, which is why Teslas sell so well. Overpriced junk is still junk no matter where it is made.
Mama mia!
I have owned a fiat 500, a Cinquecento, Alfa Romeo 156 and a 147 and currently a Fiat Punto Evo. My dad however has gone through, two Fiat 600, two Fiat 127, a Fiat 1283p, 2 ritmos, a Fiat regatta, a Alfa Romeo 33, 146, 147. Italian cars have been around ever since i was born. I absolutely love them.
I have owned 124 Special T, 131 Racing and Supermirafiori, 127. Now two couples of 600 with 903cc engine. Nowadays Fiats are boring. 124 is Mazda, sad 😕
If that's all you've been around, then of course your sample size doesn't matter.
@@the_kombinator What is yours?
Hi, Giaccomo! Very interesting story indeed! You provided a lot of interesting information and theories about crisis in Italian car production. To be honest, I personally expected a few words on Lancia Thesis, as a sort of swan's song of desperate attempt to reestablish higher class sales results and thus achieve some competing match with French and German niche of luxury limos. This was a good sign of vitality of Italian way of thinking about beauty, performance, comfort and originality. A proof about what I've just said is the fact that several car producers, such as Kia, Toyota or Mercedes Benz also offered a few similar models very soon that resembled design in details of both interier and exterier, although I think that nothing can really match genuine Italian sense for beauty for the sight. As far as I'm informed, Lancia sold some 17.000 pieces of Thesis worldwide and it had shown some difficulties with maintainance since (expensive parts, lack of spare supply), but it is a car concept developed on proven solid chasis, with durable powerful famous motors and very original look that combines retro and extravagant feelings at first glance. Not to mention legendary Lybra with 1.9 diesel engines still running through our streets after more than 20 years than it was released. Unfortunately, Fiat failed to take advantage from the historic position of spreading technology eastward in socialist countries, opening production lines in Yugoslavia, Russia, Poland... Maybe it was due to philosophy you have mentioned, available inexpensive vehicle for many pockets in daily lives of ordinary people, and therefore it seems that today everyone wants to see himself as a potential buyer of a higher class car. I see nothing bad in thinking of making available cars, but modern standards of quality and maintainance must be achieved, especially if competing with Asian car industry. German cars are very appreciated everywhere for their specifications, quality control, solid structure and serious approach to creation, but they lack joy de vivre - French sense for comfort and Italian sense for external beauty. In the very essence of Italian lifestyle there is a need for making life nice and easy, I assume it is the matter of climate, countryside and Mediterranean tradition from the ancient times, you should certainly know more on that topic. Saluti di Croatia!
It is a real shame, the Italians produce cars full of passion and emotion.
And rust and dodgy electrics and poor reliability.
@@asensibleyoungman2978 owned many Italian cars have you?
Poorly built rolling piles of junk
@@simonhodgetts6530 I've had a Lancia, an Alfa and I've also had the misfortune of having a Fiat company car (the worst car I've ever driven). Never again! The poor engineering just isn't good enough. The same thing has happened to the Italians what happened to the British. People spend their money elsewhere. Who wants to buy problematuic cars?
Correction, they used to produce cars with passion and emotion and fun. 156 was all of that, so was the original bravo, while the 159 was an elephant. The only thing the car journalists now care about is what VW does, i.e. dull cars with apparent high quality when you touch their well dampened controls, but have questionable quality and cost savings everywhere that is hidden from the view.
Thanks Jack! Sad story, but not as bad as the UK's fall from nationally owned companies!🙏🙏
Ref Fiat, you forgot to mention;-
Pride - Leading to bad decisions & political fallout.
Competition - Asian competitors taking over small car sales.
Dealer Network - In UK, the Alfa network at least didn't have a good reputation for years. Was this the same in other countries?
Fingers crossed for Italian brands in the future!
The UKs fall was bad but as country it now produces more cars than Italy!
Well, in Norway and Denmark (which are the two markets I know best) Fiat only sells various variants of the 500 as well as commercial vehicles. Alfa Romeo sells the Giulia and Stelvio models with some success, but they are unfortunately far behind the main competitors from BMW and Audi.
Not sure what Italian cars brands still exist. The Fiat group is now run by the French. Massive shame.
@@dominicwebb8000 I thought the Fiat group was now owned by Chrysler corporation? or maybe it was the other way round
@@dominicwebb8000 Pagani?
Hello Jack, hugely interesting and informative video......as usual. Thanks for putting all the time and research in for our enjoyment. By the way, I love the new Stelvio, superb in and out.
Thank you Dan, really glad you enjoyed it!
YEP THE STELVIO AND THE GUILIA ARE SUPERB CARS...GORGEOUS ITALIAN FLAIR
Great video as always Jack, as a lover of all things Italian including all my Italian in laws I share your passion for the Italian car industry. I'm a huge fan of the Lampredi Fiat twin cam and the Busso V6. Back in the 70s Lancia suffered some huge blows in the UK market with the well known rust issues but really by now they should be back in the UK as a creditable luxury brand, the UK is a huge market for luxury cars but sadly Lancia now have nothing to offer. It's a pretty sad state currently for Fiat, Alfa and Lancia....they all produced some fantastic offerings in the 60s, 70s and 80s....Giulia, Giulietta, GTV, Panda, 124, 132, 131 Mirafiori sport, 850 coupe, 2300 coupe, 600, 127, 130, Fulvia, Beta coupe, Beta Spider, Gamma, Delta HF turbo and integrale...the list goes on. Today, apart from the 500, Panda, Stelvio and Giulia most people wouldn't even know any other offerings from Fiat or Alfa. It's a pretty sad state of affairs.
Thanks Lee… it is sad to see indeed. Thanks for watching!
@@Number27 Because I'm a dual national, I have license to be critical - always in a respectful, positive tone. However, sometimes, that reality is harsh. For a culture that is and has been arguably the most creative in all of human history, the peoples of the peninsula have failed to adequately achieve the greatness they deserve because of their own virtues. Think about that. We must remember that soon after Italian Unification, it was Massimo D'Azeglio who, at the time was a patriot, statesman and a friend of Count Cavour. he was very much against the Austrian domination of the north. Yet, soon after Italian Unification he is attributed as saying : “Abbiamo fatto l’Italia, ora dobbiamo fare gli Italiani !” If we apply this paradoxical cultural collage to modern Italian political and economic history we can, to some degree, explain the enigma that is Italia.
@@Number27 My sister in law has owned an Alfa Romeo Gulietta from new since 2013. It has done over 100,000 miles and is still as tight as a drum.
I owned a 2013 Fiat Panda 1.2 pop and that was a bag of mixed result. Spacious, durable, well designed and good to drive. It was just the electric problems with the car meant I traded it in for a Toyota..
@@arusso3 very true we haven't progressed at all - - few geniuses are not representative of a people - -
@@Number27 The panda is the only car fiat makes that you still see a number of
Sad to see Fiat and Alfa lose their way. Maybe time to really show off the Italian design flair, the modern car sure needs some inspiration in design terms.
I had an Alfasud Sprint 1.5 and later a GTV 2.0 in the 80s and 90s .
Both were a hoot to drive , specialy the rearwheeldrive GTV !
But tremendous repaircosts and finaly horrible rust hass completely ended my lovestory with Alfa Romeo .
As The Who once sang : " won't be fooled again " .
That’s a shame Chris but understandable. Thanks for watching!
Well done Jack, another interesting and informative vid, look forward to many more 👍👍
I have been to Rome as a kid in 1977 and still remember those beautiful Italian cars, Lancias and all. 2021 it was sad to see that there are hardly any left
We used to have a Lancia Beta coupe 1800 when I was 5years old. I still miss this car. Although I was too young, and cince then we had numerous other cars, this little coupe is in my heart. I really love italian cars, although we never had one since then. It is a very strange thing about them. Their "spirit". I really do hope Lancia gets better. By the way, your accent doesn't show you are italian, except one thing: The way you pronounce "Alfa Romeo" :) Greeding from Athens!
In my family we owned many Fiats and Lancias in the 70s and 80s. All rusted quicker then neighbours cars, and lost resale value quicker, but we liked the Italian styling. Sad that Stellantis has given us the Corsa based on the 208, the Astra based on the 308 and various SUV models. Surely the Grande Punto (which was co-developed with the 2004 era Corsa) could be designed and put back on sale with minimal cost - it’s just a re-skin. Same with current Tipo. Put a different skin over the 308 running gear. Fiat still sells well in South America, but those cars are not what European buyers are looking for.
If you look closely you will find that VW is doing the same thing, they are giving you Golf,Leon,A3 and Skoda Octavia on same platform, and that reduced their cost. Inside, they reuse all they can and also cut the cost, and that was the problem with fiat, but now they merged with psa, and that was the goal, reducing the costs. They will try to produce as many cars as they can on same platform. 308,Bravo/Tipo/Astra/Gulieta/Delta etc. I wish them all the best, but they need to improve their quality.
No one wants Fiat...my mother bought new Punto in 2008 ...paint fall off everywhere after 7-8 years , ..everything inside fall apart and my mother dont drive much at all ..it has now only 100k km ...All 4 door are very hard to open and squeak annoyingly when open it ,clock dont work ,always resets when you start a car ,central lock failed like years ago ..so remote dont work..when you want to enter you need to unlock right door with a key and when you lock you lock left door..no other combination will do anything..lights behind were fixed like 5 times..you press turn signal to left and it also signal brake lights..hand brake was also fixed multiply times..it fails so easily..exoust pipe fall off during drive on middle off the road after just 3-4 years...since then replaced like 3 times.
And so on..my mother still drive it because she is pensioner now and she has no money to buy new car now ..only what works good on that car is engine.
Congrats you have pretty trash now.
I really liked this video, it's the best way to describe what happened in Italy about the cars and their brand factory. Cheers from Italy!
P.s. I own a '89 Alfa Romeo 75 turbo America
Grazie Alessandro e un saluto all’Italia!!
Very informative video. Learned a lot and you explained everything very clearly. Will be checking out more of your videos 👍
Not mentioning light weight commercial vehicles such as Doblò and Fiorino and some other Van models of FIAT, is just hearing the half of the issue. On the other hand Fiat turned itself on commercial vehicles and earned a good market share in markets such as Turkey and middle east. In the end it was not enough to save their place on the sales figure but still was a fresh blood to some degree to company’s financial management.
Thanks for the video though it was enlightening 😉👍
I've just had a bowel movement. I've been constipated for over a month. I'm so happy I just had to tell someone. I'm 78 years old.
Fiat Comercial is a bit apart from the rest of Fiat, is treated differently.
@@organiccold Fiat Power train Technologies (FPT) make engines for Lorries Tractors Generators and Plant machinery in general they are good engines but i will never forget the Fiat/ Iveco Turbostar what a machine ,at one point the most powerful vehicle in Europe 18 litre V8
Oh boy Jack. Most of us feel the same pain you do. I live (if you have followed my ramblings) in Germany. The state of the FIAT dealer network is dire. Mostly I am met with disinterest, rudeness and apathy added to confusion. My local dealer is disinterested and apathetic. So I move my little money elsewhere in protest. The mother ship seems to be without direction itself. So how can it direct its representatives? Annulling contracts with long established dealers as well as crap dealers just adds to the fluid state of confusion. Loads of questions raised but precious little in the way of a reply from mother. A bottle of red adds to the rose tint of the past... Mamma mia. Yours Mike.
As an retired enthusiast I appreciated this extended discussion. Our family owned many Alfas but are totally disappointed at what happened since the 80's. It is shocking that any Company can make so many consecutive wrong decisions and still survive. That >2000l tax law should have aided them lately if their designs were directed towards producing more economical vehicles with better reliability etc. Anyway our family ended up driving Toyota, BMW, Honda and Subaru and Porsche with nothing to complain. Love your research. Wish Italy can get their act together but for me it will be too little too late.
That steering wheel in the background looks like a work of art..I’ve only just subscribed..I do wish I had found your channel earlier..Very interesting channel..Thank you
Fascinating subject. I had a passion for Alfa Romeos and Lancias in the 1980s. Owning GTVs, Suds, Monte Carlo and Fulvia. But then they went ugly. The Alfa Romeo 75 being a good example. And in general, they forgot their key selling points: handling, performance and style at an affordable price. Yes, they needed to improve on the rust, reliability and build quality, but it was forgetting their USP which did it for them.
I love my Milano(75) I think the design has held up very well.
The Alfasud is an incredible car. The roadholding and balance outweighs the somewhat selfdestructing interior and bodywork. The chassis easily handles the power from a 33 16 V engine, at 137 hp more than twice as powerful as the original 1.2 l engine. Its also very safe for its age in a frontal collision, as the engine - gearbox is designed to absorb the crash energy and distribute it into the bodywork. My sister put a rustfree Sud into a concrete lightpost in 70 km/h and walked away from the scene with only minor bruises.
I had 2 Alfa 75s . V6 and twin Spark before. Handling was excellent , I thought it an individual looking car , by no means ugly, but looks in eye of beholder , I guess, people bought it as the last real Alfa. I think the 155 that followed was good looking, but was not the sales success in the UK Iit might have been considering it was so successful in the UK touring car championship. I think Fiats range in the 1990 s were also good looking cars and seemed to do quite well, sales wise. Fiat recently lost track looks wise, apart from the 500 original reincarnation, the mpv versions etc look awful
@@individual1977 It probably has improved with age. Yes, I am told the 75's handling was good.
In my opinion, Alfa did come back with style, the GTVs and Spyders of the '90s. Much later the Brera. Even the 156 and 147 were fine looking cars but they missed the sublime handling of earlier models. When you think of the Alfa Romeo brand, you think of driving passion. And this, so many of the post '80s cars missed out on. The adherence to front wheel drive on all models was mistake too. Though we have seen some sort of a return to form with the Giulia and 4c.
I liked and owned a 75 and think they look good as competition models.
We have two Stelvios (we are in the US), moved away from the Audis... So far (3 year old cars) they are more reliable than the Audi’s or the Land Rovers we had… They look good, they have enough power, they have great interiors…
Liked and subscribed!
Thank you Dan and it is really nice to hear from someone who is happy with their Stelvios! I do believe they are good cars and should sell more!
I have stelvio oto with 230.000 km perfect car! I mov ed from bmw and for ma wife i ordered new Tonale great car. Never say Italian are over the will get imprevedibile surprise 😉
Get back here and update us when the car is a decade old. If it even makes it.
@@the_kombinator will do if I don’t forget. They are both 2018 Stelvios (5 years old) and so far they are great. I had Audi’s, Land Rovers, Saab’s that I traded after 3-4 years since they were too crappy…
@@dangaines405 Don't get me started on VAG. I had the dishonour of experiencing Jetta. Twice.
Thank god a honest, direct and fact-based analysis. Content like this is almost nostalgical in a click-bait era. You've earned a subscription! I honestly hope that with the Chrysler and PSA knowledge, Fiat gets back to it's former glory -at least in reputation. Here in Brazil they only got development-independent in 2012, and since then there is a nice variety of products which I hope makes sense for other markets. If you have some time, search about Fiat Toro, Argo, Pulse and most recently, the Fiat Fastback. The last three share the same platform but appeal to quite different markets.
Another thing to consider is that Fiat (along with PSA) were one of the few car makers that were almost inexistent in US and Canada, so they had to struggle so much more to keep up with the big players in the global market production numbers. Now I really hope that they achieve success. I've dealt with the Fiat factory here in Brazil a couple of times and you can see the passion and good will in every aspect of the products they develop.
Good insight mate, appreciate the time putting this talk together.
In the name of sustainability, there has to be a reduction in output, & let's bring that tax back on large engines!
I remember reading that the Doblo was the fastest depreciating car in the UK back in 2019. Went on Holiday to Spain that year and all the car hire companies had loads of these, obviously bought at huge discount from Fiat. A van with windows was my lasting impression...
it is a van -___-
Think you summed it up pretty well. The lack of efficiency in the Italian plants I guess is a major problem, much like the issues BL had in the 70s which basically killed the British motor industry.
Which leads me on, how about a similar kind of vlog on the British motor industry.
It’s on my list!
The same could be said for the French car industry!
@@Number27 will be in the line to watch it.
I may be wrong, but I do not believe any European manufacturers had adopted the LEAN manufacturing concept Toyota had invented to decrease production errors as novel approach to assembly line manufacturing. The kick in the teeth was that primarily American business and production engineers exported American manufacturing techniques to Japan in the early 1950s only to be beaten at their own game two decades later.
Britain's problems were political. Italy's was motivational. They couldn't be bothered and of course the small minded mafia mindset.
Fab presentation chap very good viewing Jack. Well done sir. (Si frorm Bath)
My experience, try getting a non-petrolhead to consider buying an Alfa and then do the same except with a Skoda, who also used to suffer with that reliability reputational problem and there is the main reason. The exception may be Fiat due to the re-imaged 500 as people love the style and see them as cheaper to maintain, regardless of that being actually true or not.
Agree with most of what you said in the video Jack, but the way you described the Lampredi inline four was a bit... cold. It is after all, one of the most produced inline four engines in carmaker history. And it was used for over thirty years (albeit with a number of improvements) in everything from dinky little city cars to infamous rally slayers like the 037 and the Integrale.
Yes, epic engine… but a 4 cylinder engine which could never have the same cachet as the bigger multi cilindrar blocks made by the Germans. It’s all trickle down. It encouraged Italy to only enter the cheaper small car segments and not compete at the higher end which is more profitable.
@@Number27I will always prefer a 4 cylinder turbo to any bigger 6 cylinder n/a. The performance and power delivery is not comparable. The 6 cylinder sounds better, but sound doesn't give you power
Brilliant video, would watch a longer version, with a quick picture of every car mentioned
Simply the best Great presentation ! Respect from Romania 🇷🇴
Have always wondered why Italian cars worked like they did over the years. I remember Fiat and Alfa Romeo who sold cars in my Scandinavian country some decades ago but today nearly is gone because they never worked properly from brand new and finally they had to close down their selling here when nobody wanted to buy them anymore. Incredible and makes you wonder about this terrible bad quality in our modern days who just made people scream in fear.Driving two Citroens today and that from a brand who once built cars who sometimes worked and sometimes didnt but today build great cars with great quality and you see more and more of them on the roads who makes you wonder when one brand repair their reputation to glory but others just let it fall to the ground stone dead.And when Italy had high taxes on every engine over 2 liter i remember when my country delivered 2 liters Volvo S 60 and S80 with Turbo to Italy. A engine who couldnt sell over here and in most other countries when its original was a 5 cylinder 2.5 Turbo engine. Thanks for the video. 👍
If you ever actually had one in your life, you would have found out how reliable they were (and still are).
I have never had a Fiat that worked sometimes and some others not. I've never got stuck on the road with an Italian car. But I have with German one.
@@miks564: I never got stuck on an european road with my Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen or Volvo private cars, which I certainly did 98% of my trips with.
I made the 2% other trips with FIAT Ducato company cars, with which I actually ended up breaking down twice.
Forget Fiat...
@@ULTRA_2112 O have the opposite experience as I just said. And I work for a company where more than 90% of the fleet belong the usual German brands. And the company leasing only cover the three or four initial years of the cars, even so, I’ve got a pretty good idea of their reliability.
Speaking of which, leasing companies are a very good source of reliability, because they keep track of their fleet availability.
I always recommend everyone to try to check leasing companies fleet availability records.
Reality is a lot different than what everybody believes.
Very interesting, and I agree on all points! I've always been a fan of Alfa Romeo and it frustrates me that they threw away the big potential they had with the new Giulia. I can't understand why they didn't offer a wider range of versions, for example a 2-door coupe and a 5-door Sportswagon. Or why not a detuned V6-engine for a bit lower price than the Q-version. I think that's the trick - you need to offer lots of different versions on the same technical platform, to get sales volume. However, you didn't mention Ferrari, Lamborghini and Maserati! They seem to be doing reasonably well, so there is still hope for the Italian sportscars! :)
Ferrari is indeed doing well.. Lamborghini though is basically German and Maserati is not performing well sales wise.. yet.
Your point about the Giulia is right, but as Jack said in the video, their main font of money is the italian market. And guess what? Italians have no money! and even though the v6 had 300 hp instead of 500 you would pay 20k of taxes per year. So the answer to "why italian cars are so cheap and bad made?" is: italy basically HAS to suck in everything made them buyable by italian people. And this is coming from an italian. Please avoid this country
@@leonardocilento786 If you don't like it there..MOVE. Always Italians talkingBS...no money, yet Italians are top 10 in wealth in the world.
@@Number27 Lambo basically German? Made in Italy, the tech is mostly all Italian including some of the engine even though that's German. You are just feeding the trolls who claim that, stop it!
@@leonardocilento786 I will agree that the Italian government's short-cited paralyzing pejorative and punitive fiscal policy since the early '60s (as Italy was at the peak of experiencing an industrial boom) has been an anchor around the neck of Italian industry. As Giacomo has explained, the manufacturers had the capability to build product that could have competed with anyone in the world at the time but, because their focus was forced to concentrate on building what the Italians could afford to buy. Secondly, as you know, the Italian government had import quotas imposed on the Asian brands. This ensured that they could compete on price against the rest of European manufacturers on price.
Thank you very much for making this video. I enjoyed it a lot and I share the sentiment regarding FIAT’s sinful and very costly neglecting of Lancia.
This was a very well thought out presentation.
Giacomo, molto interessante !! I think one of the major problems with the old FCA group was Marchionnne (I made some money on their shares) and his desire to not invest in models. With Stellantis, Tavares is more model focused (and if you look at the numbers, Stellantis sells more electric cars in Europe than VW). Tavares is giving each brand 10 years to come back, and I think its a good strategy. Marchionne, as you said, was not really interested in developing electric technology. Yet, at CRF (Centro Ricerca Fiat), I drove about 20 yrs ago a hydrogen powered car with an electric motor. And the Giorgio platform (Giulia and Stelvio) was delayed for years, and hence its now obselete. Alfa lost many buyers. In my area, Alfa's 156 was a great seller. Maserati which sold as many as 50K vehicles per annum with an old Mercedes platform, never received the investment it needed. And as a local friend, who was a big shooter in Rover finance and later BMW finance, said, if you don't invest in models, you lose market share and disappear.
I hope you’re right about Taveres having the right strategy Dom!
@@Number27 Its slow to rebuild loss market share, so 10 years (remember Audi had lost a big chunk of market share in the US due to a problem with its auto transmission) is probably the minimum needed.
@@Number27 I think Tavares is a real leader, and the auto industry doesn't have many of them.
The delays are a good pint too. 5 years form end of the Alfa 159 until the arrival of the successor, 9 years betwenn Lancia Delta 2 and 3, 9 years between Fiat Coma 1 and 2 - quite obvious that the possibly interested cusomers went to buy somewhere else in the meantime.
I'm a Giulia driver and I don't think at all Giorgio is an obsolete platform... It performs incredibly well and is on par of BMW 3 series (but much more beautiful). And far superior to Audi and Merc. I speak about "pleasure of drive" of course.
It has indeed been a sad slippery and frustrating slide into obsolescence. Alfa relying on its heritage and goodwill as a brand is almost becoming a joke now, and it breaks my heart as I still happily drive my 2017 Giulietta.
I'm of Italian heritage but born elsewhere and every time I visit I am amazed how "ordinary" Italian cars look! The place that set the standard for amazing looking cars must be hiring designers with a weird idea of beauty. Thank God for the Giulia and Stelvio!
Thank you, I really enjoyed your analysis on the decline of the Italian auto industry. These are difficult times now for any manufacturer as fuel prices rise and the way forward seems to be hybrid at a minimum or all full electric vehicles. Any corporate planning mistake on design, production costs could be as fatal as making electric typewriters at the dawn of personal computers.
I always saw Italian cars as cars made mainly for Italians - niche market vehicles with a dubious reputation but with a certain design flair, and the same can be said for French cars as well I think.
This resulted from decisions made by a very short-sighted corrupt political leaders that ran Italian politics for decades.
Lancia Thema did have a halo model in the 1980s with a not small engine. It was the 8.32 with the Ferrari based engine but it was front wheel drive etc and not really on par with BMW etc handling so it was not just about the engine size/number of cylinders.
I liked your story
TH-cam bombarded me with adds . I’ve got Alf way through.
Thanks any way
Excellent history lesson. Thank you!
I think another problem is that FIAT and Alfa have been notoriously slow at upgrading their product; in an era of the tech loving disposable consumer, FIAT kept flogging the 500 platform dead horse, with its out of date infotainment, ageing chassis and barely changing appearance. It became stagnant; the Abarth brand was even worse, at a time when hot hatches were all the rage, FIAT offered the lukewarm 595 at a hefty price, then continued to con the consumer with parts bin 'specials' at huge premiums; the current Abarth is essentially the same car that was released in 2008, with minimal facelift. Alfa was the same, at one point only offering three models in its line up. The Giulia, as good as it is, came too late, when focus was already shifting to EV, a big performance saloon wasn't flavour of the month. Their Stelvio and Tonale might be the best chance of boosting sales, but arriving late into a market saturated with other SUV's it's going to be tough for them.
Thanks for a very interesting summary of the Italian car industry Jack, although I've never had an Italian car, only an Italian Moto Guzzi motorbike. It had its own flaws but I loved it. The only Italian cars that my college friends were interest, many years ago, were the exotics. Looking forward to more great videos Regards, Bob M.
Which Guzzi was yours ?
I can't stop staring at the two beautiful Tamiya legends at the back such a History channel sub for sure 👌
Thank you!! I have many Rc classics!
Yes I found this very interesting. I am just surprised you didn't mention David Camerons comment about Nissans factory in the North East that produced " more cars per year than the whole of the Italian car industry " . I am currently the proud owner of a Vauxhall Vectra CDTI which you might be aware has the JTD engine developed jointly by Fiat and GM. Its an absolute beauty !! Unlike some much more modern brands no one can tell , as a driver or passenger is it petrol or Diesel. Also , on one trip ,I managed 579 miles on exactly 9 gallons with three of us plus luggage. I have kept the car longer than any other vehicle I have ever owned because I like it so much. True, the inlet manifold did fail when I first got the car which was repaired under warranty but I have since covered 121000 miles in it without a hiccup.
Great summary. Giacomo , you missed or at least barely touched on the reason for the decline. The absurd Italian labor laws combined with their Byzantine tax system drove foreign car manufacturers to anywhere but Italy. I lived in Milan for two years and saw that the Italians were extremely proud of their domestic cars , engineering and style. However, for the reasons mentioned, the Italian car market is going to see tougher and tougher times ahead.
Agree with your analysis. Great video. Some other comments I would add are that one big problem for Alfa especially, is its continually hammered by the motoring press, always chucking dirt on the brand that its unreliable. I've driven them for over 25 years and they drive great and have never let me down. Whereas VW have produced so much rubbish over the years, I know a few owners who needed their engines rebuilding after shockingly low mileages, but it all gets hushed up. Something is not quite honest in this market. But as with anything if you have success you can control the market with your money and influence. Marchionne also made many poorly judged decisions. 100% agree that it was madness to throw away the greatest rally back catalogue in the business (Lancia) and position it as Fiat's luxury brand. He did this with truely dismal rebadged Chryslers which were already far from market leading products. The Kamal SUV debuted in Geneva in 2003, if my memory serves me right, and remained a concept. As you rightly said a massive mistake. Marchionne had no feel for car products, he was just a business man who could cut big $ deals, but had no clue how to move the brands / group forward.
Honesty and the car market are exclusive. Germans have the European car market and buy off, hush up the press that's why. Reliability, depreciation are poor, yet they keep selling because of an undeserved false reputation. I've heard so many horror stories of the corruption in their auto industry and dealerships. The fact is besides German, Japanese there are little alternatives. American, Korean are terrible dependability. All four of these survive because of lack of competition and shady ways of bad mouthing their rivals. They have armies of trolls doing the dirty work for them.
As you undoubtedly know, the MUCH delayed roll-out of the Giulia was problematic to say the least. With the small volume of sales, the percentage of mostly electronic gremlins stranding motorists put a black eye on the brand that was returning to America. Fiat's return with the 500 which preceded its stablemate, AR, was also plagued by quality control issues - mostly electronic. While the press loved the performance, it's all about the percentage of owners reporting problems. The fact that Fiat and AR models did not have the catastrophic design or build issues that Audi, BMW and yes, even some MB models - it all is a function of percentage of malfunction as a percentage of product sold.
Great information and a bit of a wake up call to all us Italian car lover's, or it could mean are old Italian metal is going to sky rocket.
Let's hope as I have a 156 jtd sport wagon 😎
Nice Tamiya Rough Rider and Super Champ and Alfa 1750 wheel hub... sorry got distracted...back to your very informative horror story. I have had several wonderful older Italian cars and still kept a few but the horror story continues.
The main problem with the Giulia is that you couldn't get hold of one in non geological times.
As for the Merging between PSA and Fiat, I guess it aims at rationalizing development of new models and be competitive with Volkswagen which has 4 brands at minimum building on the same chassis. The Thema/Croma/Saab9000 has been one of the most sound success for Fiat after all and so is the current 500/Wrangler project. As Fiat completely abandoned the medium-high sector of the car market, leaving it to Alfa Romeo and culling Lancia, there is very little synergy when it comes to chassis development and here PSA can help.
Europe is dropping fast in cars production and Fiat has been building in Turkey Poland and Brazil for many years. That is the reason why Italy has very low build quotes compared to Turkey: it all comes to manpower costs. For the same reason German car makers switched most of their production in Spain and Hungary.
Trump's USA trade barriers also hit Europe production badly
The only cars currently in production in Italy are the 500 serie, the Alfa Romeo and the Jeep Wrangler with some more car being built by Maserati.
Another BIG problem with Fiat is the need for staying below a certain footprint in carbon emissions of their cars in the B and C sector which providing very small profit margins: that's one of the reasons why Fiat got rid of Ferrari for example.
So far Fiat has been paying Tesla Billions every years for "Green Tokens" which allowed the brand to keep pumping out new cars but it's not very profitable.
In this light the merging with PSA makes a lot of sense as Peugeot had invested heavily in electrics in the last years.
In a few years the EU will not allow petrol engine cars to be sold, so, to keep investing there, makes no sense. Germany is up for a very bad wake up, as most of their luxury brands rely on large multi piston petrol engines. It was able to "afford" paying Tesla because of the high profit margin it get from the luxury sector, but it's not a winning strategy in the long run. So far only BMW has moved tentative steps into electrification but the brand main market is 99% petrol, while the new Fiat 500 is only available as electric.
Diesel is also phasing out and the Iveco is a big chunk of the Fiat Group.
Things have to change, but a drop in car production right now is not significant or concerning, as every technology we currently have on the shelves will be phased out in a couple of years so will not be able to pay for itself if they are invested in.
I think (hope) Marchionne had a very long term strategy for survival of the Stellantis group, which will take years to come to fruition.
I guess Fiat is just waiting for the electric market to take momentum and be ready to invest there when the right moment comes: right now, the target is to get rid as much as possible of productions based on old technologies that will soon become completely unusable.
the EU cannot compete with developing market when it comes to production costs, unless it spearhead technologies not readily or cheaply available, so I think the new Hydrogen and Electric market will bring a gust of fresh air for the European car makers. Tesla had a headstart because of Californian pollution laws, but it took almost 10 years before gaining some quotas outside the west coast: when the new EU rules over carbon emissions will become cogent, those industries ready to to capitalize on that will be the ones to thrive.
Great video, agree with all the points made. Looks like Fiat has quite a mountain to climb unfortunately. We had both a 127 and a 128 when I was a teenager in the 1980s, and although reliability was not great we still loved them. Somewhere along the line the cars lost a certain something that made them special and stand out from the crowd. In terms of the current range there is really nothing that appeals to me.
The quality of the dealer network seems to be another issue in dire need of attention, at least here in the UK. The dealers were not good even 40 years ago and expectations are massively higher now. Forget the average Germans, the quality/reliability and standards of customer support Fiat need to be aiming for are those of Japanese/Korean manufacturers like Toyota and Kia. If you are not going to aim high, what is the point?
Really enjoyed that Jack! Really interesting stuff buddy 👍
Cheers Ryan.. hope you’re good old chapb
nice analysis. I am the great fan of italian cars and u 100 %% right
This video is both informative and interestingI - thank you for sharing your perspectives. I think a big miss for Fiat was its long absence from the American market. It is a big country with a competitive automotive market. However, it's all about the Americans, Japanese and Germanns. I think Fiat (and its various brands) would have a shot by positioning their uniqueness. Americans love most things Italian (food, Ferraris, wine, clothes) so it's not a hard sell. But unlike Europe, we love our SUVs, trucks, and big engines. You need to show up with unique messaging and products that differentiate Italian cars from everyone else e.g. styling, performance, relative rarity, etc. And promote the heck out of them while addressing the outdated misconceptions of Italian cars, e.g., reliability, no dealers near potential buyers, etc.
Thanks Michael, I agree of course that missing the US market was a big problem but I think the products just weren’t good enough to compete there for many years.
@@Number27That's an excellent point. I remember my first Italian love - not a Ferrari - but a 1975 Lancia Stratos. As a 7-year-old, I was deeply intrigued by its styling. Sadly, I thought the Lancia brand was no longer with us. Glad to see it's still around and hope Fiat can make it successful.
I completely agree with you. When a plane crashes the cause is never just one but a combination of events, even independent from each other. There are some other reasons that contribute to this disaster (my congratualation for the opening image very apt). Managing of the Alfa Romeo brand is an other big one: fiat destroyed everything in Italy that can be recognized as Alfa Romeo. The Portello site was cancelled, Arese too (big fighting for many years against the project to cancel the Museo di Arese too), Balocco track changed the name and the modern factory near Napoli changed too the title. There isn't anything, any building, any center, any office that can be called "Alfa Romeo". The same for Lancia, Autobianchi and Abarth. the arrogance and envy of the mediocre fiat managers meant that the fiat behaved like the Huns who invaded Italy in ancient times and sprinkled salt on the fields so that nothing could grow there. I cite this example to describe the attitude held by those who were economically (and politically) stronger but unfortunately not so good at making cars and being far-sighted. I'm sad too. Very sad. Not only about Italy but also about car world
Thanks for the interesting comments Giorgio.. sono d’accordo che la FIAT ha veramente perso molte opportunità per sviluppare Alfa e Lancia. É un delitto!
Condivido......Fiat did what it did because there was no other industrial giant with the same political power. Reato nazionale !
Superb video! We had a rental Lancia Thema in 1989 and that car was a beauty, so luxurious and comfortable. People were admiring it in our road trip in France. My cousins had the beautiful Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 Lusso (1993), it was a pretty thirsty beast.
Even though we joke in Finland that Italian cars wont start (its partly true, especially for Fiat) when the temperature drops below 0, there is something magical about Italian car manufacturers.
Perhaps the soviet & russian steel played a big role in Fiat’s rust issues. Dont know from where they buy their steel now but noticed that they have a contract with ArcelorMittal. Also they probably use better coatings - mainly paint - and more use of galvanized steel, which is coated with rust-resistant zinc on both sides. Vehicles have also been redesigned without pockets for mud to gather, and rust-prone seams were removed.
I really liked this video you made some really great points, but what I've noticed over perhaps 30 years is that when a new fiat, alfa or lancia are reviewed it is always with negative under tones, even tv programs can't mention the 3 without mentioning rust, the fact is every car manufacturer suffered from rust in the 70s and 80s, yet only Italian cars which are now among the best are not allowed forget it.
Thanks for a great video.
One thing for certain, Italy has the greatest National Anthem in the world, always puts a smile on my face.
Was that Enzo on his bike in the video clip? :)
No not Enzo as far as I know!!
The French national anthem is the best in my opinion.
@@rain-bender4712 Canada's is best
@@markm7031 I'm Canadian, and I disagree. Italy has a great anthem. Uplifting and happy, whereas I always found Oh, Canada more like a funeral dirge.
@@rain-bender4712 I'm afraid I gotta second that assessment wholeheartedly.
The SAAB 600 was a re-badged Lancia Delta. It was badged as a SAAB-LANCIA 600. A weird combination, but it must have been because of the joint venture during the mid 80's and SAAB most likely needed a smallish car for revenue. It was only available in 1500cc form.
wow, never heard about that.
Saab 600 was sold in Norway and Sweden during 1981-82,Saab 9000 shared its chassis with Alfa 164,Lancia Thema and Fiat Croma in 80s-90s
@@marcocappa3738 The Thema/9000/Croma was a much larger vehicle and didn't share it's chassis
@@marcocappa3738 Sure, I knew about the Saab 9000, not the 600
@@smitthone just a rebadging....sold in Norway and Sweden only with 1.5 85cv engine
Giacomo - Bravo, very well researched and commented. I love your videos. Your passion is worn by your expressive remarks as well as your delivery of them to us......
I believe you covered 95% of why the non-exotic Italian car industry fell from grace. There are three additional areas I believe contributed to the eventual demise:
1) one was clearly the short sighted philosophy practiced by Italian politicians that was based on punitive governance. As the Italian economy was growing rapidly in the 50s and '60s, the governing politicians thought best to punish economic success instead of rewarding the endeavors of the middle class that was moving up the economic ladder.
2) we mustn't forget the deleterious and stifling effect the "sindacati" had on the Italian worker as well as the Italian industrial output. It is my belief that this is the primary reason that the assembly line in Poland was more efficient than the all of the six plants in Italy. As is clearly documented, these powerful labor unions, who were allied with left-leaning political parties (very fashionable in Europe at the time) while paying bribes to the Christian-Democrats in power were, essentially the legitimate arm of the "Camorra." Here, you have the perfect combination to guarantee mediocrity, and finally,
3) the missed opportunities of the late '60s and 'early '70s by neglecting to recognizing the most important market in the world at the time. The Japanese brands understood that export to America was essential for growth and the bottom line. I know first hand how dreadful these products were. Then, with focused determination and in short order, they dominated the econo segment to later conquer the lux segment as well - as evidenced by the Lexus brand.
The challenge for Stellantis, as you referenced, is that they have zero experience in the premium segment. Maser is well positioned with models in various segments but AR and Lancia are horribly positioned. I sincerely hope they can pull it off....If they can't, I can envision Stellantis selling off these two brands that they determine cannot be resuscitated. Poveri noi !
Thank you and some great points I missed, especially the effect of the unions!
Great article Jack. I've been a FIAT man since 1979, with a FIAT 125. FIATs have always been our main car and play cars. I have owned 12 FIATS and been let down once with a breakdown. Keep the maintenance up and they are fine. Rattly but fine. Sadly, in NZ, there are now only a couple of versions of the 500 from FIAT and the Stelvio and glorious Giulia from AR.
My last new FIAT was a Multipla JTD on 2008 - I still have it and it has been fantastically reliable, quirky, and economical. I, currently, also have a two owner 1974 128SL Coupe and 1998 20V Turbo Coupe. My latest car is, however, a Cupra Formentor which is brilliant. It has some Italianness courtesy of Spain.
Whenever I see, or read, a review of a FIAT, Alfa Romeo or Lancia the 'journalist' inevitably prefaces their articles with trashy rust talk from over 40 years ago. They just can't seem to get past it, despite many of the 'journalists' not even being alive when it was news. It's lazy reporting - not worthy of being called journalism. Imagine if every Mercedes or Toyota review dragged up the rust issues from last century, or every Audi or Land Rover review revisited their previous reliability issues.
Keep up the good work, it's a great channel.
I sure hope that the Italian car market is able to come back. Because in the past Italian cars of been amazing. I love my Giulia it's the best car I've ever owned
After watching this I’ve had to go to Harry’s garage to revisit the road test he did of the Thema 8:32
For me lancias demise is corporate manslaughter 🤣
After the demise of Isotta Fraschini, the Lancia became the premier luxury brand. In fact even the last models before the Fiat acquisition were absolute quality of componentry and construction. With rare the exception of special bodied and sporting ARs, the pre-Fiat Lancias will always be more valuable that AR of the same era.
Good points all around. Fifteen years ago, my father in law gave me a ride in Turin (the home of FIAT) in his FIAT 600 with under 10k miles. We hit a speed bump and the back bumper fell off. I picked it up and put it in the back seat. He was so embarrassed that he went and bought a second Toyota.
In Turin today, I see a lot of Jeeps. I belong to Stellantis's car sharing service and regularly drive the 500 electrics and find them quite nice. When we looked for a car, my Italian wife refused to get a FIAT as the only one she likes is the 500. We ended up with a Toyota.
BTW, I still think the Giugiaro designed Punto looks good even today. So clean.
Great content , I can't even imagine what an Italian car factory is like , stereotypes spring to mind , although I don't know if they got the logistics sorted but I seen what Alpha Romeo used to do to make cars and it was shipping cars the other end of the country to have paint , then somewhere else to have other things done on another documentry ., Car industry is like peak and troughs ,look at the British car industry , it's down to boutique ,and niche markets now , all the rest of our car industry has sold out , or foreign manufacturers .
It is exactly as you imagine, old guys sitting around with cigarettes hanging out their mouths.
I like this kind of story and trying to understand the development and market trends. What I miss from this analysis is the Italian force: Design! This is what we all like and appreciate about Italian cars. They are often in a class of its own. The Germans should be beaten on this point. But in reality they are not. Why?
Interesting retrospective video! Alfa's quality all things considered isn't far off from any other luxury makes on the design, fit and finish. They're well adorned, and competitive on offerings short of certain tech. They're still a ways off on the reliability mark, which is a given on a short development time for a platform, and low sales, I can imagine it makes attempting to refine and improve difficult between that and attempting a new lineup on another set of platforms. If anything, we're at another inflection point. I want to find myself in the seat of a new Alfa, or a Maserati one day. Here's hoping they get it better this time.
Excellent presentation.
Amazing ❤️
Big hug 🤗 from an Italian 🇮🇹
Loved the report Giacomo, I wonder if the unions should have been mentioned, like in the UK with British Leyland, the unions ruined Italy. I'm on my second Lancia ( bloody Chrysler) Delta, my first a 1.6 diesel now a 2.0 Limited. I think it's a brilliant car! I travelled 3500 miles in 3 weeks last year, I drive to work every day and I'm currently in Italy with the car and it hasn't 🤞 missed a beat! And what about the Ypsilon outselling the entire Alfa range for quite a while in Italy. Ciao
Absolutely. I wrote about the effect the Italian unions (or, as I refer to them as the legal entity of the "Camorra") in response to another post.
Yes there was a Marxist mentality against luxury items, which is what Italy is famous for. Vat at 38% on cars over 2.000cc, on cashmere, boats and other items the country produces. They should have been sent to Guantanamo Bay guilty for crimes against their Nation.
I was waiting for the unions ... owned a Uno,X19 and seven Alfas
If something goes wrong in Italy it’s 99% burocracy fault
@@ventu7907 I have ruminated and struggled to understand this very subject for decades. Much has also been written about it as well. I'll explain. Ultimately, I've decided to apply the Pareto principle here, the so-called 80/20 rule that explains so much about human behavior. Curiously, the very expalnation I propose is from the italian economist Vilfredo Pareto. But the principle also applies to human behavior. If we consider the PP, IMO, we can partially explain the seemingly enigmatic and paradoxical dynamics of Italian culture as it applies to many aspects of society. Sure, the labor unions were and still are to blame because they replaced a vital function that was lacking in society. Specifically, it was the voice of the workers, many whom left their domiciles in central and southern Italy to work in the industrial north. So, while the labor unions were not 99% responsible per se, the desire of the unions (with significant support from organized crime) to represent the workers was so strong that they did not consider the effect of destroying the industry in the process. They were the 20% that had such a dominant effect on the rest of society which was the other 80%. Certainly, if we look at this dynamic from afar and from a dispassionate perspective, we conclude it is insane. The retort is that Italian society, as it developed from fragmented feudal societies and countless conflicts over the millennia is one of the oldest in the world.
Ciao Giacomo! Thanks for a very interesting video. I always loved the way Italian cars drove but was a bit intimidated by their reputation. My father had a Fiorino, which was a fun little car but it felt really poorly made. Having also lived in Italy I am very sympathetic to the trouble they are having and hope that the recovery is close. The newer Alfas seem to be promising, let's see... However I need to point out that Fiat has had an SUV in its line-up, which is the 500x, don't know why it wasn't mentioned. I guess it didn't sell in numbers. Looking forward to seeing more from your channel. Im bocca al lupo 😉
Yes you’re right on the 500x but it again came late.. and was substandard. Also it needs a full range not just a small suv..
Great video, very informative 👍😀
I have owned many Alfa Romeo cars but for me was my Lancia Integrale.
Incredible I was driving in the winter the power and tracking truth snow.
O my God I wish I still have this car and never sold it.
Dear Jack, you did passionately depicted the painful Fiat slow decline story perfectly. Indeed Mr. Agnelli, Mr. Romiti and at last Mr.Marchionne were the absolute masters of disasters for the brand. They were indifferent to car production raise rather than well-done prestigious models issue and any industrial improvement but barely focussed onto own short-term cashflows matters and personal returns and incomes in reveues, thus consciently killed One by One all the group brands they managed to put their dirty hands on. Poor Lancia, poor Alfaromeo Who slowly died helplessly, cause of greath managing incompetence and thin private interests.
The Thema did have the prv 2.8 v6 and latterly a version of the busso 3.0...and the 8.32 of course.
Don’t think the Thema ever had a busso??
@@Number27 sure did in series 3 form. Detuned to 175bhp but torque curve flatter I believe. I can say with truth as I had one. Came in ls trim or a quite rare lx, which used the leftover 8.32 dashboards and came with perforated alcantara or a different to 8.32 style poltrana frau leather. Rarest of the lot was the 3.0lx station wagon with 20 built.
Hi Jack. With all due respect, i do not agree on your comment on the 156, and quality. Having owned quite a number of Alfas on the same platform, from my experience the 156 is better put together, and the interior of better quality than the GT, or 147. With both the GT and 147 having many more niggles, and potential failure points. Even comparing a 2010 Golf 6 that i owned for a short while, which had just north of 100k km on the clock, with our 2002 156 V6 that we have owned for the past 11 years, which now has 269k km on the clock, the 156 is just a much nicer place to be in, and a much nicer car overall. The 156 simply seems to age better. Even the leather in the 156 is superior quality to the stuff used in the VW. Our 156 has been very reliable, it does not use oil between services, and the engine has never been opened. You should try a 156. But get a good one. Oh, and a 2.5 V6, it’s truly the BEST version of the Busso…
Your presentation on prolific rust caused by cars on production line left in the weather during prolific strikes was quite enlightening thanks you
Love your set ... however for four minutes I thought the aerial on the RC car was a scratch on my screen...
😁😁😁 thanks for watching!!
great analysis, hope a better future for the Italian car industry... and something is on the oven. Please check what are doing now in the Motor Valley (Emilia Romagna). Not Lamborghini, Maserati or Ferrari, but Pagani and in particular my favorite: DALLARA! True piece of art cars!
Hi Giacomo, unfortunately the Italians have too much pride and don't like to swallow the bitter pill. As a thoroughbred Italian who lived in italy as a teen in the mid 80's, saw Italian cars like Fiat, Lancia, Alfa Romeo, Ferrari and so on, launch cars of dreams. The unfortunate part is the lack of quality and service to back themselves. Moving back to Australia in 88, my first car purchase was a 128 sedan and loved it to bits. Followed quickly into my foray of Alfa Romeo starting with Alfetta sedan, Giulietta, 90, 3 x 75's, 164, 156, 147 and my last sqeeze is a restored Prisma (ex UK import) that I'm enjoying. Its a pity that the Fiat group reduced their range offering to near nothing and seeing the likes of Hyundai, Nissan and many other car makers flourish with proper dealer networks, quality build and service, thrive. My guess will be one of the big German brands will take Alfa away and do something with it, as having only 3 models to choose from, will not make them viable for Stellantis. Poor Lancia will also suffer as Marchioni put and end to the brand and yet it outsells Alfa by a country mile. Here's hoping for the future but not holding my breath. Thanks for the video 👍🇬🇸
Hey Gaetano! Thanks for watching and for your comments.. a big wave to Australia 🇦🇺.. fab place!
Italy was the n1 car manufacturer in 2021 in Europe.
@@peterppp694 I think it was VW group which topped the sheet. Stellantis very close second.
A very accurate, well-informed piece. Poor old Alfa, they come up with the Tonale, which is a decent vehicle, but it will be taken over by the rebadged Hornet, which will undercut Alfa completely. Italy is in deep sh*t in terms of manufacturing. Their labor laws ,and general inflexible attitudes about work, mean they will not be nimble enough to make the EV transition, and i suspect they will lose all their brands except purist products like Ferrari and Lambo. You are so correct about Lancia being bungled. They should have doubled down on the Rally car aspect, and made the car like the Ford Ranger Raptor, a beast, and then let that spill over into the regular cars. And to think SUV is a fad is absurdly ignorant for someone in the business to gets the surveys. Women like to be up high, and have a heavier vehicle to crush other people. It is about feeling safe, and women are 51% of the population.
Lambo has been owned by VW/Audi for years
Hey Jack, back in 1966 I "swapped" my Morris 1100 for a six cylinder Fiat 1800, it was a great car, but oy, the rust! Then I got hold of a 1963 Fiat 2300 that was a big "step up" from my 1800 but again, oy, the rust. A Mk3 Fiat 1500 followed but yet again, a lovely great performing car, (for it's day), prematurely destroyed by rust. So their early cars were good and the earliest were great performing six cylinder cars (1800 & 2300, the 1500 was a four cyl), but oy the rust!!
My old mechanic used to say, F-irst, I-n, A-ll, T-ests, but he was Italian, great report Jack, keep 'em coming.
The Austin 1100 was THE worst car you could buy when it came to rust! A large percentage were scrapped within 7 years because of it! No car was great back then, it wasn't unusual to have holes in the sills/wings/arches within 4 years on 95% of all cars in the 60`s & 70`s.
@@MrPabsUk yes maybe so, my 1100 was only two years old when swapped, (1964 model), it was the continuous mechanical issues, (all at low mileage, gearbox, cv joints, front suspension, engine overheating then it finally seized), that inspired me to move it on. No rust at that point but at least not my problem by then.
I'm so happy the algorithm brought me to your channel, subscribed, hit the bell icon all that. I really enjoyed this video, even if the subject is a bit depressing. I'm not a longtime follower of the brand, but after The Grand Tour's mini Audi Vs Lancia documentary, it sparked the interest in me in knowing more about the brand and it's all the more heartbreaking to see just how neglected that brand is. I've been to Italy only once for our honeymoon (2013) and the only Lancias I recall seeing where ugly looking, and just seemingly a copy of an existing FIAT model.
I wonder how much the "don't cannibalize" sales bit also affected them from really going into SUVs, considering they have the Jeep brand, but unless I'm mistaken, the Jeep brand in Europe isn't really as ubiquitous as it is in the US, and I doubt most of their SUV models would fit on European roads and the only option that comes to mind that was marketed more as a world car, the Cherokee (and also the Dodge Journey) seems to have gotten the same issues of the rest of Chryslers/Dodge non pickup line up in that it sold for longer than it needed to without any real updates. A slightly beefed up FIAT Panda might have been successful with the SUV/CUV craze, but at this point it's probably a missed opportunity. Living in Mexico I recall seeing excitedly Alfa enter the market with some quite pretty small/medium hatchbacks to compete with VAG's VW and SEAT models, but while SEAT is now morphed into Cupra selling CUVs the Alfas here all but disappeared, and never did they make me regret buying a Mazdaspeed 3 (aka Mazda 3 MPS) over them.
In any case, looking forward to more videos from you. Grazie.