every time someone talks about coyote time, i feel, they always forget to mention its often overlooked purpose of combatting input delay. it takes time for the signal of the controller to reach the game. depending on the connection type that might be mutliple game frames. meaning, at the time the player pressed the jump key, the character might still be on the ground, but at the time the signal reaches the game, the character might already be over the edge
In addition to that, there's also the time a human being has to perceive and react to things, which is around 240 ms. There's a very good article by the title of "Designing Game Controls" by Andrew Dotsenko where he talks about the Perception Window and goes a little deeper on the subject.
people don't mention that because it's not the case. controller latency is often negligible and sub-frame, whereas human reaction time is capped at around 15 frames at 60fps.
@@inuinuinuinuinuthat’s nonsense. Input lag is on the order of multiple frames these days, not just because of wireless controllers but also because of the lag in just getting the picture into the display. Modern fighting games have about 6 frames of input lag. This is why Smash Bros Melee players insist on using CRT televisions, it shaves off several frames of input lag.
Great review. Not a word about sounds, though. And picking sounds for player-caused actions/events with care can make a difference. With sound, you can make player 'feel' that huge gun when he shoots. Make interacting with game world more satisfying, even if that's just walking on different surfaces. Help to make those levelups / picking up items even tastier... Or, rather, just annoy the player. Works just like extra care and attention to animations, I suppose. And applies to any genre as well.
"Its something my team and I constantly stress over" Honestly, i think this will have the best outcome. I always have this mentality of perfectionism and striving to make something that is just amazing. And sometimes that causing stress and gets overwhelming. Constantly people tell me "good enough is good enough", but like, i dont want good enough, im not making Doodle Jump here! I wanna make something thats special! If you quit when its good enough, and never stress over making it special, itll never reach that step.
Even around all these other great games, your game seems to fit in very well! Its at least at the same or similar level to all the other games you showed off. I will definitely be buying this game when it comes out!
My friend was one of the beta testers on Sheepy and he's been trying to get me to play for it for awhile now. The way you described it made it sound really cool. I'll give it a go
Great video!I'm a fairly new game developer and am currently working on my first game in blender and all the information you gave is much appreciated!I will be applying that to my game and your game looks great!🙌🏼😁✅🙂❤️
Absolutely. Micro animations are fine details. The fine details don't matter if the game isn't already good, but if it is already good, that little detail can turn something good into something GREAT! Game feel absolutely matters. The more satisfying something is to play, the more people want to play it.
micro animations are the most noticeable for me that contribute to game feel, sometimes it’s the difference between loving a game and finding it feels flat and not enjoying it
Neat video, but during the comparison section of the microanimations segment, I really felt like it was a really unfair comparison. Yeah the code is the same between the two, but I think to most people what jumps out isn't the microanimations or anything in particular, it's the entire scene, better looking sprites, better looking ambience, more polished visuals in general etc... I think to make the example more effective, a more scientific approach might have helped, with the same frame of reference in everything but the microanimations. Keeping the most recent build of the game, and simply removing the extra animation touches. Because with the example that was used, it didn't really help in illustrating why microanimations are good. Anyways that's really just a nitpick but it stuck out for me and I had to point it out
How do you balance the difficulty between highly skill players, and not very skilled ones? How do you know which feedback to take and which to dismiss?
For us, we’ve set up a list of design principles that we always follow. The feedback that gets us closer to those principles is the feedback we take action on. For example, one principle is that TetherGeist should be difficult but satisfying. So if we test with someone who’s at least decent at gaming and that person gets super frustrated somewhere, we know we need to change it up.
I think most of these tips (other than maybe the playstesting one) are very 2D platformer oriented, probably the reason every game shown is somehow that. Like, what microanimations would you put in a 3D driving game? Ambience is also a design choice, which you could argue is not exactly a tip ("make your game look cohesive and appealing"). Othewrise, a tip could be "have sounds next to objects that produce sounds". For 2D platformers, I would say that the first four tips are all very valid, although at some point you have to decide what minimum level of skill you want for your game; if you are making, say, Wings of Vi, your game testers will probably not be average players that may or may not like platformers, or, basically, you will never make Wings of Vi.
Mario Kart has fantastic micro animations. Characters are always turning their heads rather than just staring straight, they cheer when they hit an opponent, the wheels turn with the car, etc. Chiming in on the other tips, input buffering is commonly used in shooters for things like reloading or player movement, Valve playtests their games constantly (part of why Portal is so good), intentional movement and momentum are key ingredients to mecha or racing games, etc.
I really want to know how you guys did your lighting system. I know it has to do with the "hole punch" method, but I don't exactly know how to apply it. I want to make the most out of my game's atmosphere and make it look gorgeous, with all the capabilities Gamemaker has
The trick is to use blend modes and surfaces. You can look up GM tutorials on them. Maybe, if there’s enough interest, we could look into making a tutorial video on the topic. Our method doesn’t use shaders, which I think might be an appealing approach to devs who aren’t comfortable with shaders.
Get a Steam Deck and keep your latest build on it. Having a handheld device you can use to get your game in front of people is super convenient. We bring the game with us to random events, hang-outs with friends, and even the farmer's market where we ran a booth (see devlog #7). Having an HTML5 build was also really nice in the early stages. We were able to test with all sorts of people over zoom and discord screen shares - a lot of whom we recruited through our online social circles. When doing it online, it was always nice to have webcams turned on too so we could see their facial expressions.
Did you guys change your branding? (I think so but I've looked at multiple past devlogs and I cant seem to find what it looked like before) if you did, i really like it! I love the logo and the colors :)
Everyone always says to playtest the game, but no one ever talks about HOW to get playtesters. If you don't already have a huge online following finding these "5 different people to play your game" is near impossible. Watching them play IRL even more so, conventions are hella expensive and take tons of time. It would be very useful if instead of hundreds of these "5 tips on making a game feel good" videos someone just made "5 tips on finding playtesters" once.
Good idea! We should totally make a video on that. For us, having a steam deck is a game changer. We keep our latest build on it and take it to events, gatherings, etc. We even ran a booth at the farmer’s market (which was pretty cheap). It’s surprising how willing strangers are to sit down with you and your game if you just simply ask. Having a steam deck in hand makes it super easy to make it happen.
i love your videos been watching a ton of them, i wishlisted your game and requested access so im gonna try it out tonight when i get home, keep up the good work the game seems super interesting i´ll give some feedback as soon as i play it for a bit, where should i contact you with feedback about the game?
every time someone talks about coyote time, i feel, they always forget to mention its often overlooked purpose of combatting input delay. it takes time for the signal of the controller to reach the game. depending on the connection type that might be mutliple game frames. meaning, at the time the player pressed the jump key, the character might still be on the ground, but at the time the signal reaches the game, the character might already be over the edge
Ah good point.
In addition to that, there's also the time a human being has to perceive and react to things, which is around 240 ms.
There's a very good article by the title of "Designing Game Controls" by Andrew Dotsenko where he talks about the Perception Window and goes a little deeper on the subject.
people don't mention that because it's not the case. controller latency is often negligible and sub-frame, whereas human reaction time is capped at around 15 frames at 60fps.
@@inuinuinuinuinu Exactly.
@@inuinuinuinuinuthat’s nonsense. Input lag is on the order of multiple frames these days, not just because of wireless controllers but also because of the lag in just getting the picture into the display. Modern fighting games have about 6 frames of input lag. This is why Smash Bros Melee players insist on using CRT televisions, it shaves off several frames of input lag.
Great review. Not a word about sounds, though. And picking sounds for player-caused actions/events with care can make a difference. With sound, you can make player 'feel' that huge gun when he shoots. Make interacting with game world more satisfying, even if that's just walking on different surfaces. Help to make those levelups / picking up items even tastier... Or, rather, just annoy the player. Works just like extra care and attention to animations, I suppose. And applies to any genre as well.
Great call out.
*Sees Sheepy: A Short Adventure in the thumbnail*
*leans in*
I'm interested.
lol yeah Sheepy is incredible
Samee haha
I WAS JUST BAOUT TO COMMENT THAAAAT
I gotta say, Tethergeist looks good when presented in a lineup of other great games :o
That honestly means so much to us ❤️
"Its something my team and I constantly stress over"
Honestly, i think this will have the best outcome. I always have this mentality of perfectionism and striving to make something that is just amazing. And sometimes that causing stress and gets overwhelming. Constantly people tell me "good enough is good enough", but like, i dont want good enough, im not making Doodle Jump here! I wanna make something thats special! If you quit when its good enough, and never stress over making it special, itll never reach that step.
Even around all these other great games, your game seems to fit in very well! Its at least at the same or similar level to all the other games you showed off. I will definitely be buying this game when it comes out!
Man, that’s a huge compliment. Thank you!
My friend was one of the beta testers on Sheepy and he's been trying to get me to play for it for awhile now. The way you described it made it sound really cool. I'll give it a go
Great Video. It would be pretty cool and helpful if you would make a Video about these Mikro-Animations, how to pixel them and how to implement them.
I like that idea. I’ll have to ask Noah and Rae - the artists
Yeah, show us more art stuff related! Maybe like the design process of characters, use of colors, etc.
@@OandCoGames It would also be cool to go over hand drawn 2d micro animations, and 3d ones too
I was so happy to see you mention sheepy a short adventure, it’s one of my favorite movements mechanics, it’s so fun.
Straight into my game design playlist ❤
This is really smart marketing for your game, I love it ;)
great tips and video! and btw your game looks beautiful
Hey, thanks!
Great video!I'm a fairly new game developer and am currently working on my first game in blender and all the information you gave is much appreciated!I will be applying that to my game and your game looks great!🙌🏼😁✅🙂❤️
Thank you kindly!
Guys why is this company not more popular it’s such good vids and I neeeeeed to play the game when it comes out.
Absolutely. Micro animations are fine details. The fine details don't matter if the game isn't already good, but if it is already good, that little detail can turn something good into something GREAT!
Game feel absolutely matters. The more satisfying something is to play, the more people want to play it.
Your game looks awesome, definitely gonna buy it man :)
Thank you!
Some really awesome game examples listed here (plus a few i still gotta try out!)
micro animations are the most noticeable for me that contribute to game feel, sometimes it’s the difference between loving a game and finding it feels flat and not enjoying it
Yeah, it's wild how big of a difference it makes.
Neat video, but during the comparison section of the microanimations segment, I really felt like it was a really unfair comparison. Yeah the code is the same between the two, but I think to most people what jumps out isn't the microanimations or anything in particular, it's the entire scene, better looking sprites, better looking ambience, more polished visuals in general etc... I think to make the example more effective, a more scientific approach might have helped, with the same frame of reference in everything but the microanimations. Keeping the most recent build of the game, and simply removing the extra animation touches. Because with the example that was used, it didn't really help in illustrating why microanimations are good. Anyways that's really just a nitpick but it stuck out for me and I had to point it out
I'm a simple man: I see Sheepy, I click.
(great video btw)
Good stuff, thanks for the content!
That was really useful. Thanks a lot.
Really enjoyable, thank you 🙂
thanks for sharing you take indies need more of this
How do you balance the difficulty between highly skill players, and not very skilled ones? How do you know which feedback to take and which to dismiss?
For us, we’ve set up a list of design principles that we always follow. The feedback that gets us closer to those principles is the feedback we take action on. For example, one principle is that TetherGeist should be difficult but satisfying. So if we test with someone who’s at least decent at gaming and that person gets super frustrated somewhere, we know we need to change it up.
Great explanation!
Amazing video as always
Tween all the things 🙌
?
@@OandCoGames In the animation sense, tweening or inbetweening, basically saying add animation to everything as a way to polish
@@moonstar_connor Ahh gotcha lol. I heard "tween" like "pre-teen" lol
@@OandCoGames lol, I can see how that'd come across as weird 😂
just putting it out there: Sheepy is a top tier game. I dont know why it's free xD please play it.
Are the devs planning to make a console release?
Yeah, it really shouldn’t be free.
I think most of these tips (other than maybe the playstesting one) are very 2D platformer oriented, probably the reason every game shown is somehow that. Like, what microanimations would you put in a 3D driving game? Ambience is also a design choice, which you could argue is not exactly a tip ("make your game look cohesive and appealing"). Othewrise, a tip could be "have sounds next to objects that produce sounds". For 2D platformers, I would say that the first four tips are all very valid, although at some point you have to decide what minimum level of skill you want for your game; if you are making, say, Wings of Vi, your game testers will probably not be average players that may or may not like platformers, or, basically, you will never make Wings of Vi.
Mario Kart has fantastic micro animations. Characters are always turning their heads rather than just staring straight, they cheer when they hit an opponent, the wheels turn with the car, etc.
Chiming in on the other tips, input buffering is commonly used in shooters for things like reloading or player movement, Valve playtests their games constantly (part of why Portal is so good), intentional movement and momentum are key ingredients to mecha or racing games, etc.
I really want to know how you guys did your lighting system. I know it has to do with the "hole punch" method, but I don't exactly know how to apply it. I want to make the most out of my game's atmosphere and make it look gorgeous, with all the capabilities Gamemaker has
The trick is to use blend modes and surfaces. You can look up GM tutorials on them. Maybe, if there’s enough interest, we could look into making a tutorial video on the topic. Our method doesn’t use shaders, which I think might be an appealing approach to devs who aren’t comfortable with shaders.
great video as always! How do you consistently get new playtesters? I struggle to get even 5 people to play my games lol
Get a Steam Deck and keep your latest build on it. Having a handheld device you can use to get your game in front of people is super convenient. We bring the game with us to random events, hang-outs with friends, and even the farmer's market where we ran a booth (see devlog #7). Having an HTML5 build was also really nice in the early stages. We were able to test with all sorts of people over zoom and discord screen shares - a lot of whom we recruited through our online social circles. When doing it online, it was always nice to have webcams turned on too so we could see their facial expressions.
@@OandCoGames thanks for replying! This is good advice, I guess my next step is save up for a Steam Deck
And don't worry... I watch all your devlogs lol
@@butterboy_games Awe shucks thanks. Definitely not an expectation by any means
lol
Did you guys change your branding? (I think so but I've looked at multiple past devlogs and I cant seem to find what it looked like before) if you did, i really like it! I love the logo and the colors :)
Thanks! Yes, we redesigned our logo and colors.
Is that the Negative Man from Doom Patrol?
Uh... no?
Everyone always says to playtest the game, but no one ever talks about HOW to get playtesters. If you don't already have a huge online following finding these "5 different people to play your game" is near impossible. Watching them play IRL even more so, conventions are hella expensive and take tons of time.
It would be very useful if instead of hundreds of these "5 tips on making a game feel good" videos someone just made "5 tips on finding playtesters" once.
Good idea! We should totally make a video on that. For us, having a steam deck is a game changer. We keep our latest build on it and take it to events, gatherings, etc. We even ran a booth at the farmer’s market (which was pretty cheap). It’s surprising how willing strangers are to sit down with you and your game if you just simply ask. Having a steam deck in hand makes it super easy to make it happen.
Great Vid😀
How did you go about finding play testers?
th-cam.com/video/CUyFMJuxk3E/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ZtLsDGl-x9Y-pX8U
dev glob
Blasphemous got great art but not fun to play
For the love of God, will you stop using Pixel Art man?
lol impossible.
Don’t you DARE diss doodle jump
I have offended the mobile gaming gods
@@OandCoGames no just me, there’s a doodle jump game at an old arcade in my town
@@gasujuhusg9514 Woah no way? I never knew an arcade for it existed lol
@@OandCoGames yeah it uses a giant stick to control doodle
@@gasujuhusg9514 Dope
i love your videos been watching a ton of them, i wishlisted your game and requested access so im gonna try it out tonight when i get home, keep up the good work the game seems super interesting i´ll give some feedback as soon as i play it for a bit, where should i contact you with feedback about the game?
Hey thanks for following along! We have a feedback section in our discord server.