If the air leak was where they told you it wouldn’t have any dust in both or any intake tubes. That would also be non metered air and the engine would show lean and flood the machine with fuel. My consensus with what I have seen in both of your videos is that the air box was leaking at the cover, this would be the only way to have a clean filter and dirty intake plenum duct. The particle separator had absolutely no relationship with the failure. This was obviously caused by dirty air that was metered to the engine and therefore dusted the cylinders causing compression loss. I’m glad Honda took responsibility and fixed the issue. You had absolutely nothing to do with the issue since the machine was indeed serviced at the Honda dealer. I do however believe it was the dealership that should have taken responsibility when they obviously didn’t install the new filter or air box gasket correctly.
I AM A CERTIFIED HONDA TECHNICIAN in Florida. I worked at a dealer for years. I currently have my own off-road powersports shop. I regret to inform you that the dealer is lying to you. Any dirt that is ingested into the engine at the boots you pointed to and were told was the cause would be washed into the engine by the fuel sprayed from the fuel injectors and NONE of it would have made it back up to the airbox!!!! You also would have had a high or unstable idle because a leak big enough to let dirt in at that boot would have been a massive leak in terms of vacuum. You only saw symptoms after a loss of compression not early on from a big vacuum leak. The amount of dirt that is seen on the clean side of the airbox is a for certain indication of a improper seal on the airbox lid and or cover. I’m honestly upset that you are being mislead. I worry it’s because of a mistake made by the dealer on the last service. I’m the end it will be fine because they have convinced Honda to help, but I worry that a dealer that can’t get the airbox/filter set and installed properly.... may make mistakes upon building the new engine. These pioneer 1k and talon engine, transmission, sub transmissions are complex and not for the even average tech. They need to be built by an expert. I hope it works out but I could not stay quiet on this.
The main thing is, that whatever they told Honda, they talked Honda into helping, which is the best thing that could have happened. All you can do is sit back and wait and let them fix it. My advise to you is to not rush them. Let them fix it carefully, cautiously, in fact if I were you, I would offer to pay for an extra 2 hours of shop labor to the tech building it asking him to take his time, be extra diligent, test drive it a good amount and make sure it’s 100% before you pick it up. Honda warranty pay is the lowest in the business. The tech already has a hard job, and he is pressured to hurry just so he can have a decent pay check at the end of the month. Trust me a couple of customer pay hours buys a TON of extra attention to detail by the tech and appreciation from him and a better end result for you.
From what I saw from the videos it appears that the dealer was truly at fault with the installation however to avoid having to pay for your new engine they false diagnosed it to Honda so they would deal with it. It is what it is but the lesson here is just dont mess with it lol. Some dude working at a dealer might have been off his game and now you were out of a machine for a while and stressing out.
That’s exactly what I was thinking. The dealer probably forgot some clamps on the air box lid and had a made up cause of the problem so they wouldn’t be to blame and so he could get a new engine that he deserved
Me personally, I think (without knowing 100% of the details) the service dept didn't put your filter lid on correctly last time you had it serviced and it sucked unfiltered air in. I'm not sure where the mass air flow sensor is but the bogging on hills and stalling was caused by burning non metered air which caused it to run lean and stall. It only happened on that one ride and that's all it took to toast your engine. I think they saw that when they took it apart and put the blame on honda with the clamp just to cover themselves and get you an engine for free. Think about it... How did dust get back up by the filter housing when the suction should of pulled it straight into the combustion chamber. For it to have flowed backward that would have needed to be a gap prob close to 1/4 - 1/2" or better between the coupler and the intake..... just my opinion!!!
...and the correct one. No way is that much dirt going to get behind the air filter if the leak was at the intake manifold. It can't swirl and get through the throttle bodies when you shut the engine down. The failure was obviously in the air box.
@@TJbaseliner This speaks volunes for Honda because you know as well as I do that Honda Engineers looked at that and said the same thing but still gave Ray a brand new engine!
@@gbaileyo7 I even wonder if the Honda people were ever involved. If I was a dealer, no way would I submit this ridiculous story. Unless I could hide all of the airbox photos. I have no doubt Ray is telling us an accurate version he's being told. But I have my doubts about what really happened behind the scenes. The dealer may be covering the repair out of their own pocket but doesn't want to look bad in front of a loyal customer.
No you can see the dirt coming underneath the intake boot on the left side of the intake runner if it was the air filter you would see dirt in the inside of the rubber boot as well.
Glad Honda is taking care of you. Polaris wouldn't honor their own extended warranty when I had the same problem. They couldn't tell me how dirt got into my motor past a brand new Polaris air filter. Also my dealer wouldn't let me into their shop to even look at my dissembled motor. $3500 later my RZR is back and running. Good luck and keep the great videos coming!!
Kieran Mann it depends a lot on the dealer. My friend took his 1000S in to have a shock looked at and that dealer replaced all wheel bearings, carrier bearing and the shock under extended warranty.
I'm not a certified technician by any means but, it seems crazy to me that... that much dirt would be back drafted up into the filter housing from a loose connector down by the engine... Idk call me crazy or ignorant seems to me a way more plausible explanation is a incorrect air filter change or something with that system by the maintenance department. Either way though they are covering it under warranty so who cares new motor for you and they took care of the issue. Hopefully its corrected quickly/correctly/and doesnt happen again ! Good Riding !
You are right and I said the same thing that No Way the Intake couples would have done this for 2 things first off if the was leaking that bad the Engine would not run right from the start the other no way dirt would fill the air box. Sorry but the air filter cover was not install right , came loose or bad seal.
Jeep back Roads that’s what I was thinking since if the leak was before the carb the dirt would have to back track through the carb while being mixed with the gas coming out of it all the way up until the air box. So it must not have been clamped on well and that would explain the clean air filter. But guessing by him being as mad as he was I have a feeling he has the dealer do everything even change the filter so that’s probably their fault. And the dealer might of lied to Honda about the cause of the problem, so he could get a new engine and the dealer wouldn’t take the blame for their mistake.
I agree with others saying that the filter cover was installed incorrectly and you are being led astray. In your video, one can see that it's a simple rubber coupling with 2 band clamps. I can see where improper orientation of rubbers could cause a leak, but not of the magnitude shown in the previous video. I've service a lot of off road vehicles both as a motorcycle mechanic (mostly honda BTW) years ago and in the last 20 years on my own and kids stuff (daughter raced District 38). The good thing is you're getting covered. When this is all done, I would suggest you find another dealer.
I’m glad this is being covered by Honda. But their explanation is not possible. If it was leaking dirt there, the two intake tubes to the left of the air filter would not be dirty. The engine is like a vacuum. The dirt would not travel to the clean side of the air filter, the opposite direction of the vacuum. It’s just not possible. I would bet it was leaking around the air box cover.
@Honda Talon Turbo Owner You're exactly right. And how would all that "reversed" air get past the throttle bodies and into the clean side of the airbox? Physics says this is not possible.
The dealer is feeding you a line of bs. If the intake boots were the problem from the factory, you would have had issues alot sooner. Also if the intake boots were the issue, you wouldn't have dirt on the clean side of your air filter. The vacuum of the engine makes it impossible for that to happen. The dealership didn't put the airbox lid on correctly, and they are covering themselves with a bs excuse. Good on them for taking care of the engine, but they are flat out lying to you about the real issue.
I do know anything is possible, but I think you are right. If it had leaked air in at the intake boots it would cause a lean condition which would have made it run like crap from day one, not counting all the other issues it would have caused. Unless they became loose over time, but I highly doubt it.
The level of attention to Detail, (Totally disorganized and messy at best) of your dealer's shop would discourage me from having any service work performed at said shop. I've never seen a poorly operated service center not have either labor issues, warranty issues, cash flow issues and the likes, compared to a well run shop. My opinion is based on many years experience, if I was at Honda I'd be making a call to this shop, establish the Honda image or pull the dealership. But, it's not my machine and it's not costing me anything, Good Luck with your repairs.
New Talon owner but not new to machines. As some others have mentioned that looks exactly like a failure of the gasket to seal the airbox lid closed, leaving a leak path for fine dust to get into the motor - bypassing the particle separator and air filter. I just went out and looked at the airbox and it would be easy to miss one of those clips that holds the lid on.
Hello everyone I purchased last Saturday a brand new 2021 Honda talon 4 seater. It had 2 miles on the clock when I loaded it on the trailer at mountain motor sports in Kodak TN. I trailered home & unloaded it & drove it up to my house about a 1/4 mile. Got the family loaded & road up the mountain behind my house which is on 28 acreas. The coolant temp light came on at the top of the mountain. I shut it off & checked the coolant to find it was empty. I walked back to my shop & got the can am & a gallon of coolant & road back to the Honda. It took the entire gallon was was still not full. I drove the Honda back to my shop only to have the coolant light come on again. Two friends & I added another quart of coolant & was squeezing the radiator hoses trying to force the water into the engine. Shutting it off every time the light come back on. When the coolant started circulating through the motor the light went off for good. So it was drove 3.? Miles without any coolant at all because the Manuel says it hold 5 quarts & that is exactly what it held. The dealership came this morning to pick it up but I told them I like the talon just not that one after being ran hot & with not a drop of coolant in it. So I’m am curious of how Honda will deal with this problem. I told them I don’t want a machine that has been run without coolant 3. Something miles. So I might comment on this post once I find out. Thanks
Sorry buddy it sucks for sure and reading your comment took me right back to the day I had my issue. From what I understand Honda handles situations like this on a case by case basis. I had and to this day still have a very good relationship with my dealership. I personally feel that if it wasn’t for that, I would have been even worse off than I made out in the end. What I can tell you about my personal experience is Honda (the main company) made everything much more difficult than anything I had ever experienced before handling the claim. This was after admitting that my situation was an assembly error during the build process. In the end, they wanted to rebuild my engine instead of providing a NEW one and even that was going to take 7-8 months....unacceptable to me!! Luckily my dealership bent over backwards to help allowing me to trade in with a minimal loss on my part. One thing is certain.... I will never purchase another Honda Powersports product ever again. I hope they do the right thing a make it right for you. I know how it feels. Since my issue other people have reported similar problems with the customer service aspect of Honda Powersports. It appears their quality control is not what it was in years past when it was truly a brand name that screamed QUALITY.
I never would have guessed. I figured the dirt was getting sucked in underneath the filter from a improperly installed filter as I’ve done that before myself. Anyway, great time for a LS swap. 👍
Isn't the boot between the throttle body and the head? If so, sucking in that much dirt it would have sucked in lots of air after the throttle body. That would make the engine run extremely lean and not hardy run at all. Interesting.
Hoping it's just an anomaly and also hoping you get you Talon back soon! Thank you for the update and taking your time to provide all the video as always!
So ironic you went the extra effort with the inertial separator installation to protect the motor, and then some factory installed clamps are to blame! Great videos btw!
I recently bought a Talon X4 and did the first oil change last week. I pulled the air filter and decided it had to go after 160 miles in extreme dusty conditions... it was trashed! Sorry Honda, but putting the air intake in the rear wheel well is plain STUPID! After seeing the filter being toast after 160 miles, I installed the S&b Particle Separator. While running the wires, and fishing them down behind the fuse panel, I just happened to notice the breather hose on the top of the valve cover was NOT CONNECTED at the factory. The spring clamp was there on the breather pipe and the hose was right up against the pipe, but not connected. I took a video of this and some pics, and I'll be sending them to the dealer. I'm hoping that the dirt didn't find its' way into the engine through this pipe. The other end of the hose goes to the dirty side of the filter housing, so there won't be any concern there. I'll have to wait 'til Tuesday when they open to send them the photos. I'm going to Cover My Azz with the pictures as best I can and ask them to make a note and give me a copy that they received and reviewed the pics should anything happen down the road...no pun intended. I've been a Honda guy all my life, and there are problems with any brand, but Honda to me is the most reliable and well built out there.
That's pretty normal for all brands in extremely dusty conditions. I have trashed the air filter in my rzr in less than 20 miles in really dusty conditions.
Kind of baffling that something as small as a gasket can cause catastrophic failure like this. Sorry for the loss, but looks like you'll be coming back swinging!
Ray, I’m happy that Honda found it in them to rebuild your engine with 1800 miles on it. As you know your engine wasn’t replaced but rebuilt. Could be worse I guess, however I think I would have argued that the engine should have been replaced with a new engine not rebuilt. I definitely learned something at your expense.
Thank you Sir for the Real Update! Much respect for fitting this in, with all your 100% quality in Video too, while in the midst of a real working life. You got a lot of “feedback” 😅😂🤣😂. You rose above the Hate DIY guys get...and seem to be a realist enabling You to overcome Your own disappointment. Tell your Dealership and the Darren you mentioned that they are setting the Bar as to providing a Path for a customer to have access toHonda PowerSports. It sucks that for as much as you ride, (may be assuming too much, but if your Working life, this rig is most likely therapeutic and you must be missing it) to be without for the time. Yet all In all Shit Happens, and it seems HondaPowerSports is stepping up, a few days confirming problem and hopefully a few more to fix it. Bet HPS is looking at that nomenclature to map out if your a one off or a one of a batch of one offs! Best of luck, look forward to the updates and Cheers from AK49🍻
Tuff break Ray, keep the faith fella, you will be back out soon with your driving experiences, looks like a great place to be. All the best from the uk.
If the clamp on the boot was wrong from factory install you would have had problems sooner. Also im not sure why you felt the need to add a particle separator? Just use he filter and replace it when needed. By the looks of your buggy you like add ons. Nothing wrong with that but leave the engine alone. There is no need for an extra air filter, it wont save you money when the dummy at the shop doesnt install it properly and blows your motor. If your engine was pushing dirt back toward the air filter, then you got new problems. Good luck im thinking about buying the talon X up here in ontario. I like solid drive trains. Only thing that should have a cvt is a snowmobile
Ray, thank you very much for the video. My 19’ 1000x has just fallen to the same issue. I’m going to have to fight the dealer to replace the whole motor. As of right now, Honda just wants to replace the top end.......... I’m hoping to get in there and take pictures, wish me luck. I will say the machine experienced trouble idling, with a bad surging RPM and loss of power on the trail. I limped it home at 9 mph. So I’m inclined to believe the vacuum leak was closer to the air box as the other comments suggest.
Ray, the motor had the exact same issue! Honda says they are going to replace the complete motor and make it numbers matching to not hurt resale. It was a factory screw up and the dealer determined the motor had never breathed clean air from day 1. Hence the motor only lasted 150ish miles. I hate to say it but I’m done with Honda. They aren’t going to provide remedy for the time my machine is in the shop (due to their fault) and will not commit to paying for the 100 mi service on the new motor. I won’t be recommending the talon going forward. It sucks because I was the first guy in my riding group to run a talon and now I can say they will all be sticking with Polaris.
Same crap is happening to my Dad (82 years old) and Honda is refusing to warranty it. The engine is bad and only has 400 miles on it. In Dad’s case he bought his with the Jackson Turbo kit installed by the dealership. The dealership is blaming my father for not cleaning the air filter enough. He cleaned it twice and again it only has 400 miles on it. Honda is refusing to warranty the engine. I own a Talon also. I am thinking of selling it due to these problems. HONDA CAN KISS MY ASS. I WILL NEVER BUY ANOTHER HONDA PRODUCT EVER AGAIN.
Just reading through the comments and was wondering where the alleged "haters" are. People that know a thing or two about how engines work and flow characteristics of an intake system would not be able to keep a straight face if they were told what you were told by the dealership. I'm glad Honda is covering for the dealership in this case. You should find another dealer to do your service.
I think people that committed using the term “haters” were not intended in the context of the actual reason for the failure being Honda assembly or human error after the fact.......I believe that was directed to individuals stating it was my fault for installing something wrong or making a mistake putting the air-box back on after performing maintenance myself-- which I never do or have done. All maintenance and aftermarket add on’s were purchased and installed at the dealership.
Got it. It does sound like the service dept. at your dealership didn't put the airbox cover on securely. I get that in order to maintain your warranty that the dealership has to do the maintenance. Lesson learned is to double check everything they do.@@47rhorvath
Hey man, I just had the front gearbox go out on my new Pro XP, so I totally feel your pain! I was going to post a video as well about it, more than anything I think it gives people an idea of issues they can have with a large purchase.
Same thing happened to mine. Rubber boot wasn't connected to throttle body from the factory. Clamp was tight and all just not connected. 126 miles and engine wouldn't pass leak down test.
I was one who was negative because of the aftermarket air cleaner. I do not believe in aftermarket parts.. I'm apologizing to you. The carb. boot was loose on my buddies 400 EX from the factory!! It didn't cause Engine damage, he caught it in time.. Now you are going to have to check every bolt. My buddy had his snowmobile Engine rebuilt at an AUTHORIZED skidoo dealership. When he got it back a recoil starter bolt was missing, the drive clutch bolt was loose and some fuel clamp's were not in their proper locations!! An AUTHORIZED SKIDOO DEALERSHIP!!! Check EVERY BOLT!!!
Ugh! Don't want to go through this. Like yourself, I'd rather just enjoy the product. Appreciate the video. I guess one will just have to wait and see if their unit has the bad crimps? I think I have the same machine. 2020 1000R. Warranty will be up long before I hit 2500 miles.
@@47rhorvath So, I went out yesterday to inspect the 2 boots on the intake that connect the airbox to the engine intakes. I realized that they are the same boots Honda has used for years and years and years. I own 2 Honda Valkyrie motorcycles, each of them have 6 of these boots connecting the downdraft tubes from the airbox to the carb intakes. Exact same boot, just different size. I've had these off too many times to count doing rebuilds on various Valks. There are no crimps on these boots. The simply slip on very much like a rubber plumbing connector and are secured by 2 metal clamps. Mine checked out just fine, and were tight. It does have me wondering where the real issue with your lies. Thanks again for posting the video. Wish it hadn't happened. I like the way you are handling it and just "moving on". Also glad Honda is taking good care of you.
Whats bad about this is that if your machine had this issue then its highly probable there are many more that have this issue too...Im pretty amazed that was the issue as those clamp type rings are usually pretty secure and tight and the rubber fit is usually tight as well, but if rubber boots arent a tight and correct diameter and the clamp ring isnt tightened to proper tension then I guess this certainly can happen...just highly unusual...
Whats more scary is the people who ride in more wet conditions... It took a long time for this to bust Rays machine with just dirt. What about all the people who are going through deeper water. Wont water get sucked in just the same as dust will?
@@OutDoorMillennial Both are bad but water might be less damaging to the cylinders but the main bearings are another issuel....Bad either way! If this is design problem then honda better get on the ball fast with this!
Mr Ray I am sure your out there working a lot during the times and season etc...know your pleased with KRX and that’s cool...it’s a Tank and have had few Kaw’s as far as bikes and have respect..but..if it doesn’t just add a lot a salt to wounds...maybe you could touch base on the Talon ...if that isn’t in your best interest I understand...just know there are many I think that want to know👍
Thank you for the comment and the view. I actually did explain on my 1st KRX video that I no longer own the Talon. However you are correct, it might be good to mention it again in my next video. Thanks
I would like to see a video of you pulling the coupler off the head that will tell if it came from there which I highly doubt it came from the airbox not sealed properly or from someone not installing it correctly
Well good for you! Like my previous comment saying Honda would most likely take care of it so this is prove they're doing just that. Just curious if a different brand would have done the same. Anyways...glad it all worked out.
Whoever’s shop your in wouldn’t be working on my stuff! That looked like a disaster! Most horrifically filthy and unorganized mess I have ever seen. I’m glad Honda is fixing yourself engine and have no opinion on the cause
George Merrill I’m being told about 2 more weeks. Shipping slowed down due to the covid 19 situation. Waiting on 2 mounts that broke during shipping the 1st time
Daniel Mettetal You’re probably correct. For myself as long as they’re taking care of it doesn’t matter to me who’s picking up the tab as long as it’s not Ray Horvath 👍🏻
good informative video, it sucks I'm sure, glad they Honda stepped up. just got my first UTV and looking for some good places to ride... live north of you, up near Albuquerque.
Jacob Curtis........If you listen to him,3:10 he definitely said, it was not the clamps being loose. It was stated the connection between the Engine and the throttle body boots was not installed correctly at the factory. If you look, there is only one clamp on each boot.
Ray Horvath Productions Thanks for the quick reply Ray I am a fan of your videos I like how you tell it like it is weather it’s good or bad I am really looking forward to hearing how everything works out with your machine. I truly hope you’re a happy camper when this is all over. 👍👍😊😊. I hope you and your family stay safe in these trying times. Take care.
I’m calling BULLSHIT, that’s NOT where the dirt was getting in. Been a Honda tech for 20 plus years, and that’s not the issue. Improperly installed air filter, or the air box boots. Those clamps are fine, I’d bet every Honda in my shop on it.
3:40 it's a hose clamp ! And IF it was leaking there you would have had a trouble code for a vacuum leak and a wondering idle. Tell you honda dealer to go on TH-cam and learn how replace the air filter properly.
I would say if you’re dealer does your maintenance, point this out to the and have them check (be very specific when explaining) or 2nd, if you do your own work, double check the entire area for induction leaks. Thanks again
I thought u said on your last vid that u chose Honda because of the reliability an the product they use on there machines..so yea u picked a brand. Fishy dealers lmao maybe they took it out joy riding ? I guess u will never know.. I did once too an after that nothing but problems now. I even think they went as far as replacing my good parts for shit parts. But I'm glad u got it sorted
That definitely wasn’t the problem u probably ran it with filter on wrong or no filter. Only one side would be scored u or ur Mech don’t know what to look for. Honda shouldn’t have given u a new engine it’s ur fault ughhh
Lesya Stepanchuk Thanks for the feedback, however if you had viewed the previous videos, you would know All maintenance 100% is done by my dealership. I’ve never turned a single bolt on any of my machines. Even if I wanted to, No time 1st of all, and 2nd even if I did have time, I can’t due to health issues. I respect and thank you for your comment, however maybe you should not judge without knowing all the facts. Perhaps I it’s because I grew up in a different time, but I find it amazing how people jump to conclusions with little or no insight on a situation. Nevertheless I Hope you have a great day and thank you for watching.
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If the air leak was where they told you it wouldn’t have any dust in both or any intake tubes. That would also be non metered air and the engine would show lean and flood the machine with fuel. My consensus with what I have seen in both of your videos is that the air box was leaking at the cover, this would be the only way to have a clean filter and dirty intake plenum duct. The particle separator had absolutely no relationship with the failure. This was obviously caused by dirty air that was metered to the engine and therefore dusted the cylinders causing compression loss. I’m glad Honda took responsibility and fixed the issue. You had absolutely nothing to do with the issue since the machine was indeed serviced at the Honda dealer. I do however believe it was the dealership that should have taken responsibility when they obviously didn’t install the new filter or air box gasket correctly.
I AM A CERTIFIED HONDA TECHNICIAN in Florida. I worked at a dealer for years. I currently have my own off-road powersports shop. I regret to inform you that the dealer is lying to you. Any dirt that is ingested into the engine at the boots you pointed to and were told was the cause would be washed into the engine by the fuel sprayed from the fuel injectors and NONE of it would have made it back up to the airbox!!!!
You also would have had a high or unstable idle because a leak big enough to let dirt in at that boot would have been a massive leak in terms of vacuum. You only saw symptoms after a loss of compression not early on from a big vacuum leak.
The amount of dirt that is seen on the clean side of the airbox is a for certain indication of a improper seal on the airbox lid and or cover.
I’m honestly upset that you are being mislead. I worry it’s because of a mistake made by the dealer on the last service. I’m the end it will be fine because they have convinced Honda to help, but I worry that a dealer that can’t get the airbox/filter set and installed properly.... may make mistakes upon building the new engine.
These pioneer 1k and talon engine, transmission, sub transmissions are complex and not for the even average tech. They need to be built by an expert. I hope it works out but I could not stay quiet on this.
Ben Gavins Thanks for the information. I also have concerns here. I feel somewhat handcuffed with this situation 🤔
The main thing is, that whatever they told Honda, they talked Honda into helping, which is the best thing that could have happened. All you can do is sit back and wait and let them fix it. My advise to you is to not rush them. Let them fix it carefully, cautiously, in fact if I were you, I would offer to pay for an extra 2 hours of shop labor to the tech building it asking him to take his time, be extra diligent, test drive it a good amount and make sure it’s 100% before you pick it up.
Honda warranty pay is the lowest in the business. The tech already has a hard job, and he is pressured to hurry just so he can have a decent pay check at the end of the month. Trust me a couple of customer pay hours buys a TON of extra attention to detail by the tech and appreciation from him and a better end result for you.
From what I saw from the videos it appears that the dealer was truly at fault with the installation however to avoid having to pay for your new engine they false diagnosed it to Honda so they would deal with it. It is what it is but the lesson here is just dont mess with it lol. Some dude working at a dealer might have been off his game and now you were out of a machine for a while and stressing out.
That’s exactly what I was thinking. The dealer probably forgot some clamps on the air box lid and had a made up cause of the problem so they wouldn’t be to blame and so he could get a new engine that he deserved
Abslutely true!!
It doesn't matter but no way the dirt got in by the couplers on the head, it was the seal on the air fliter box.
I have my doubts too
Ray just ignore the haters. Thanks for content. I'm glad Honda is taking care of you.
Candis Thanks Candis
Me personally, I think (without knowing 100% of the details) the service dept didn't put your filter lid on correctly last time you had it serviced and it sucked unfiltered air in. I'm not sure where the mass air flow sensor is but the bogging on hills and stalling was caused by burning non metered air which caused it to run lean and stall. It only happened on that one ride and that's all it took to toast your engine. I think they saw that when they took it apart and put the blame on honda with the clamp just to cover themselves and get you an engine for free. Think about it... How did dust get back up by the filter housing when the suction should of pulled it straight into the combustion chamber. For it to have flowed backward that would have needed to be a gap prob close to 1/4 - 1/2" or better between the coupler and the intake..... just my opinion!!!
...and the correct one. No way is that much dirt going to get behind the air filter if the leak was at the intake manifold. It can't swirl and get through the throttle bodies when you shut the engine down. The failure was obviously in the air box.
@@TJbaseliner This speaks volunes for Honda because you know as well as I do that Honda Engineers looked at that and said the same thing but still gave Ray a brand new engine!
@@gbaileyo7 I even wonder if the Honda people were ever involved. If I was a dealer, no way would I submit this ridiculous story. Unless I could hide all of the airbox photos. I have no doubt Ray is telling us an accurate version he's being told. But I have my doubts about what really happened behind the scenes. The dealer may be covering the repair out of their own pocket but doesn't want to look bad in front of a loyal customer.
No you can see the dirt coming underneath the intake boot on the left side of the intake runner if it was the air filter you would see dirt in the inside of the rubber boot as well.
There is no MAF on these. Just FYI.
Glad Honda is taking care of you. Polaris wouldn't honor their own extended warranty when I had the same problem. They couldn't tell me how dirt got into my motor past a brand new Polaris air filter. Also my dealer wouldn't let me into their shop to even look at my dissembled motor. $3500 later my RZR is back and running. Good luck and keep the great videos coming!!
Kieran Mann it depends a lot on the dealer. My friend took his 1000S in to have a shock looked at and that dealer replaced all wheel bearings, carrier bearing and the shock under extended warranty.
I'm not a certified technician by any means but, it seems crazy to me that... that much dirt would be back drafted up into the filter housing from a loose connector down by the engine... Idk call me crazy or ignorant seems to me a way more plausible explanation is a incorrect air filter change or something with that system by the maintenance department. Either way though they are covering it under warranty so who cares new motor for you and they took care of the issue. Hopefully its corrected quickly/correctly/and doesnt happen again ! Good Riding !
You are right and I said the same thing that No Way the Intake couples would have done this for 2 things first off if the was leaking that bad the Engine would not run right from the start the other no way dirt would fill the air box. Sorry but the air filter cover was not install right , came loose or bad seal.
you're dumb.
I agree been wrenching a lot of years there is no way that dirt in the airbox came from a lose connection in front of the carburetor.
@@DieselRamcharger thanks for your input :)
Jeep back Roads that’s what I was thinking since if the leak was before the carb the dirt would have to back track through the carb while being mixed with the gas coming out of it all the way up until the air box. So it must not have been clamped on well and that would explain the clean air filter. But guessing by him being as mad as he was I have a feeling he has the dealer do everything even change the filter so that’s probably their fault. And the dealer might of lied to Honda about the cause of the problem, so he could get a new engine and the dealer wouldn’t take the blame for their mistake.
I agree with others saying that the filter cover was installed incorrectly and you are being led astray. In your video, one can see that it's a simple rubber coupling with 2 band clamps. I can see where improper orientation of rubbers could cause a leak, but not of the magnitude shown in the previous video. I've service a lot of off road vehicles both as a motorcycle mechanic (mostly honda BTW) years ago and in the last 20 years on my own and kids stuff (daughter raced District 38). The good thing is you're getting covered. When this is all done, I would suggest you find another dealer.
I’m glad this is being covered by Honda. But their explanation is not possible. If it was leaking dirt there, the two intake tubes to the left of the air filter would not be dirty. The engine is like a vacuum. The dirt would not travel to the clean side of the air filter, the opposite direction of the vacuum. It’s just not possible. I would bet it was leaking around the air box cover.
@Honda Talon Turbo Owner
You're exactly right. And how would all that "reversed" air get past the throttle bodies and into the clean side of the airbox? Physics says this is not possible.
Tyler Jameson someone made a mistake and it wasn’t Honda design or assembly. I’m just glad Ray doesn’t have to pay for it.
The dealer is feeding you a line of bs. If the intake boots were the problem from the factory, you would have had issues alot sooner. Also if the intake boots were the issue, you wouldn't have dirt on the clean side of your air filter. The vacuum of the engine makes it impossible for that to happen. The dealership didn't put the airbox lid on correctly, and they are covering themselves with a bs excuse. Good on them for taking care of the engine, but they are flat out lying to you about the real issue.
I do know anything is possible, but I think you are right. If it had leaked air in at the intake boots it would cause a lean condition which would have made it run like crap from day one, not counting all the other issues it would have caused. Unless they became loose over time, but I highly doubt it.
The level of attention to Detail, (Totally disorganized and messy at best) of your dealer's shop would discourage me from having any service work performed at said shop. I've never seen a poorly operated service center not have either labor issues, warranty issues, cash flow issues and the likes, compared to a well run shop. My opinion is based on many years experience, if I was at Honda I'd be making a call to this shop, establish the Honda image or pull the dealership. But, it's not my machine and it's not costing me anything, Good Luck with your repairs.
Great video. It's rare to see a problem like this with a Honda, but anything can happen to any brand. I'm glad Honda is taking care of it.
Lucky that the dealership and Honda were honest
New Talon owner but not new to machines. As some others have mentioned that looks exactly like a failure of the gasket to seal the airbox lid closed, leaving a leak path for fine dust to get into the motor - bypassing the particle separator and air filter. I just went out and looked at the airbox and it would be easy to miss one of those clips that holds the lid on.
Hello everyone
I purchased last Saturday a brand new 2021 Honda talon 4 seater. It had 2 miles on the clock when I loaded it on the trailer at mountain motor sports in Kodak TN. I trailered home & unloaded it & drove it up to my house about a 1/4 mile. Got the family loaded & road up the mountain behind my house which is on 28 acreas. The coolant temp light came on at the top of the mountain. I shut it off & checked the coolant to find it was empty. I walked back to my shop & got the can am & a gallon of coolant & road back to the Honda. It took the entire gallon was was still not full. I drove the Honda back to my shop only to have the coolant light come on again. Two friends & I added another quart of coolant & was squeezing the radiator hoses trying to force the water into the engine. Shutting it off every time the light come back on. When the coolant started circulating through the motor the light went off for good.
So it was drove 3.? Miles without any coolant at all because the Manuel says it hold 5 quarts & that is exactly what it held. The dealership came this morning to pick it up but I told them I like the talon just not that one after being ran hot & with not a drop of coolant in it. So I’m am curious of how Honda will deal with this problem. I told them I don’t want a machine that has been run without coolant 3. Something miles. So I might comment on this post once I find out. Thanks
Sorry buddy it sucks for sure and reading your comment took me right back to the day I had my issue. From what I understand Honda handles situations like this on a case by case basis. I had and to this day still have a very good relationship with my dealership. I personally feel that if it wasn’t for that, I would have been even worse off than I made out in the end. What I can tell you about my personal experience is Honda (the main company) made everything much more difficult than anything I had ever experienced before handling the claim. This was after admitting that my situation was an assembly error during the build process. In the end, they wanted to rebuild my engine instead of providing a NEW one and even that was going to take 7-8 months....unacceptable to me!!
Luckily my dealership bent over backwards to help allowing me to trade in with a minimal loss on my part. One thing is certain.... I will never purchase another Honda Powersports product ever again. I hope they do the right thing a make it right for you. I know how it feels. Since my issue other people have reported similar problems with the customer service aspect of Honda Powersports. It appears their quality control is not what it was in years past when it was truly a brand name that screamed QUALITY.
@@47rhorvath Thanks Ray
That’s why I bought the Honda & I hope they step up to the plate cause that one cost almost as much as a new Honda Car.
@@kevinkeith9330 Any word yet?
Glad Honda is taking care of you. As they should, if in fact the dealership does all of your work and add on's
I never would have guessed. I figured the dirt was getting sucked in underneath the filter from a improperly installed filter as I’ve done that before myself. Anyway, great time for a LS swap. 👍
See the LS razor???
PhillLsx Ga. I haven’t but I will see if I can find it.
Isn't the boot between the throttle body and the head? If so, sucking in that much dirt it would have sucked in lots of air after the throttle body. That would make the engine run extremely lean and not hardy run at all. Interesting.
Very reassuring to hear Honda is standing behind your buggy!
Hoping it's just an anomaly and also hoping you get you Talon back soon! Thank you for the update and taking your time to provide all the video as always!
Thanks again
So ironic you went the extra effort with the inertial separator installation to protect the motor, and then some factory installed clamps are to blame! Great videos btw!
I recently bought a Talon X4 and did the first oil change last week. I pulled the air filter and decided it had to go after 160 miles in extreme dusty conditions... it was trashed! Sorry Honda, but putting the air intake in the rear wheel well is plain STUPID! After seeing the filter being toast after 160 miles, I installed the S&b Particle Separator. While running the wires, and fishing them down behind the fuse panel, I just happened to notice the breather hose on the top of the valve cover was NOT CONNECTED at the factory. The spring clamp was there on the breather pipe and the hose was right up against the pipe, but not connected. I took a video of this and some pics, and I'll be sending them to the dealer. I'm hoping that the dirt didn't find its' way into the engine through this pipe. The other end of the hose goes to the dirty side of the filter housing, so there won't be any concern there. I'll have to wait 'til Tuesday when they open to send them the photos. I'm going to Cover My Azz with the pictures as best I can and ask them to make a note and give me a copy that they received and reviewed the pics should anything happen down the road...no pun intended. I've been a Honda guy all my life, and there are problems with any brand, but Honda to me is the most reliable and well built out there.
So you are saying that after 160 miles, your vehicle didn't have the first service?
My rzr gets plugged up alot quicker than 160 miles.
@@maxheadflow Yeah, I was out on a VERY log ride well before it reached the 100 mark.
That's pretty normal for all brands in extremely dusty conditions. I have trashed the air filter in my rzr in less than 20 miles in really dusty conditions.
I'm glad you are getting taken care of and I'm glad Honda found the mode of failure. Win, win.
Really appreciate your videos...thanks
Thanks for the update, glad your getting it taken care of!
Kind of baffling that something as small as a gasket can cause catastrophic failure like this. Sorry for the loss, but looks like you'll be coming back swinging!
Thanks. I hope so.
Ray, I’m happy that Honda found it in them to rebuild your engine with 1800 miles on it. As you know your engine wasn’t replaced but rebuilt. Could be worse I guess, however I think I would have argued that the engine should have been replaced with a new engine not rebuilt. I definitely learned something at your expense.
Thank you Sir for the Real Update! Much respect for fitting this in, with all your 100% quality in Video too, while in the midst of a real working life. You got a lot of “feedback” 😅😂🤣😂. You rose above the Hate DIY guys get...and seem to be a realist enabling You to overcome Your own disappointment. Tell your Dealership and the Darren you mentioned that they are setting the Bar as to providing a Path for a customer to have access toHonda PowerSports. It sucks that for as much as you ride, (may be assuming too much, but if your Working life, this rig is most likely therapeutic and you must be missing it) to be without for the time. Yet all In all Shit Happens, and it seems HondaPowerSports is stepping up, a few days confirming problem and hopefully a few more to fix it. Bet HPS is looking at that nomenclature to map out if your a one off or a one of a batch of one offs! Best of luck, look forward to the updates and Cheers from AK49🍻
Much appreciated! Thanks
Tuff break Ray, keep the faith fella, you will be back out soon with your driving experiences, looks like a great place to be. All the best from the uk.
Thank you sir
Thanks for the update! Please keep the vids coming.
If the clamp on the boot was wrong from factory install you would have had problems sooner. Also im not sure why you felt the need to add a particle separator? Just use he filter and replace it when needed. By the looks of your buggy you like add ons. Nothing wrong with that but leave the engine alone. There is no need for an extra air filter, it wont save you money when the dummy at the shop doesnt install it properly and blows your motor. If your engine was pushing dirt back toward the air filter, then you got new problems. Good luck im thinking about buying the talon X up here in ontario. I like solid drive trains. Only thing that should have a cvt is a snowmobile
Ray, thank you very much for the video. My 19’ 1000x has just fallen to the same issue. I’m going to have to fight the dealer to replace the whole motor. As of right now, Honda just wants to replace the top end.......... I’m hoping to get in there and take pictures, wish me luck.
I will say the machine experienced trouble idling, with a bad surging RPM and loss of power on the trail. I limped it home at 9 mph. So I’m inclined to believe the vacuum leak was closer to the air box as the other comments suggest.
Lee Fox Sorry to hear that. Hope they take care of you
Ray, the motor had the exact same issue! Honda says they are going to replace the complete motor and make it numbers matching to not hurt resale. It was a factory screw up and the dealer determined the motor had never breathed clean air from day 1. Hence the motor only lasted 150ish miles.
I hate to say it but I’m done with Honda. They aren’t going to provide remedy for the time my machine is in the shop (due to their fault) and will not commit to paying for the 100 mi service on the new motor. I won’t be recommending the talon going forward. It sucks because I was the first guy in my riding group to run a talon and now I can say they will all be sticking with Polaris.
@@leefox5446was it a problem with the air box?
@@ericlessard5021 hey Eric, the air box was not the problem it was the runners on the intake not being sealed
Same crap is happening to my Dad (82 years old) and Honda is refusing to warranty it. The engine is bad and only has 400 miles on it. In Dad’s case he bought his with the Jackson Turbo kit installed by the dealership. The dealership is blaming my father for not cleaning the air filter enough. He cleaned it twice and again it only has 400 miles on it. Honda is refusing to warranty the engine. I own a Talon also. I am thinking of selling it due to these problems. HONDA CAN KISS MY ASS. I WILL NEVER BUY ANOTHER HONDA PRODUCT EVER AGAIN.
Just reading through the comments and was wondering where the alleged "haters" are. People that know a thing or two about how engines work and flow characteristics of an intake system would not be able to keep a straight face if they were told what you were told by the dealership. I'm glad Honda is covering for the dealership in this case. You should find another dealer to do your service.
I think people that committed using the term “haters” were not intended in the context of the actual reason for the failure being Honda assembly or human error after the fact.......I believe that was directed to individuals stating it was my fault for installing something wrong or making a mistake putting the air-box back on after performing maintenance myself-- which I never do or have done. All maintenance and aftermarket add on’s were purchased and installed at the dealership.
Got it. It does sound like the service dept. at your dealership didn't put the airbox cover on securely. I get that in order to maintain your warranty that the dealership has to do the maintenance. Lesson learned is to double check everything they do.@@47rhorvath
Hey man, I just had the front gearbox go out on my new Pro XP, so I totally feel your pain! I was going to post a video as well about it, more than anything I think it gives people an idea of issues they can have with a large purchase.
Thanks Phil
Same thing happened to mine. Rubber boot wasn't connected to throttle body from the factory. Clamp was tight and all just not connected. 126 miles and engine wouldn't pass leak down test.
I was one who was negative because of the aftermarket air cleaner. I do not believe in aftermarket parts.. I'm apologizing to you.
The carb. boot was loose on my buddies 400 EX from the factory!!
It didn't cause Engine damage, he caught it in time..
Now you are going to have to check every bolt.
My buddy had his snowmobile Engine rebuilt at an AUTHORIZED skidoo dealership.
When he got it back a recoil starter bolt was missing, the drive clutch bolt was loose and some fuel clamp's were not in their proper locations!! An AUTHORIZED SKIDOO DEALERSHIP!!!
Check EVERY BOLT!!!
No worries, Thanks for the view and glade your buddies machine is ok
@@47rhorvath 👍
Just look it over good..
Ugh! Don't want to go through this. Like yourself, I'd rather just enjoy the product. Appreciate the video. I guess one will just have to wait and see if their unit has the bad crimps? I think I have the same machine. 2020 1000R. Warranty will be up long before I hit 2500 miles.
Exactly!
@@47rhorvath So, I went out yesterday to inspect the 2 boots on the intake that connect the airbox to the engine intakes. I realized that they are the same boots Honda has used for years and years and years. I own 2 Honda Valkyrie motorcycles, each of them have 6 of these boots connecting the downdraft tubes from the airbox to the carb intakes. Exact same boot, just different size. I've had these off too many times to count doing rebuilds on various Valks. There are no crimps on these boots. The simply slip on very much like a rubber plumbing connector and are secured by 2 metal clamps. Mine checked out just fine, and were tight. It does have me wondering where the real issue with your lies. Thanks again for posting the video. Wish it hadn't happened. I like the way you are handling it and just "moving on". Also glad Honda is taking good care of you.
Glad they are standing behind it for you
Thanks
Whats bad about this is that if your machine had this issue then its highly probable there are many more that have this issue too...Im pretty amazed that was the issue as those clamp type rings are usually pretty secure and tight and the rubber fit is usually tight as well, but if rubber boots arent a tight and correct diameter and the clamp ring isnt tightened to proper tension then I guess this certainly can happen...just highly unusual...
Good point!! What if the housing itself was not molded to the correct size as far as spec??
Whats more scary is the people who ride in more wet conditions... It took a long time for this to bust Rays machine with just dirt. What about all the people who are going through deeper water. Wont water get sucked in just the same as dust will?
@@OutDoorMillennial Both are bad but water might be less damaging to the cylinders but the main bearings are another issuel....Bad either way! If this is design problem then honda better get on the ball fast with this!
@@47rhorvath Yes that could be too but the fix would be to resize the rubber boots to fit accordingly...pretty easy fit there..
Mr Ray I am sure your out there working a lot during the times and season etc...know your pleased with KRX and that’s cool...it’s a Tank and have had few Kaw’s as far as bikes and have respect..but..if it doesn’t just add a lot a salt to wounds...maybe you could touch base on the Talon ...if that isn’t in your best interest I understand...just know there are many I think that want to know👍
Thank you for the comment and the view. I actually did explain on my 1st KRX video that I no longer own the Talon. However you are correct, it might be good to mention it again in my next video. Thanks
Thanks for the update Ray, I enjoy the content of your channel.
Thanks
I would like to see a video of you pulling the coupler off the head that will tell if it came from there which I highly doubt it came from the airbox not sealed properly or from someone not installing it correctly
I’m glad Honda is taking care of you but how many cases of this are documented? I’m not quite sure I believe the isolator was the issue.
Well good for you! Like my previous comment saying Honda would most likely take care of it so this is prove they're doing just that. Just curious if a different brand would have done the same. Anyways...glad it all worked out.
Whoever’s shop your in wouldn’t be working on my stuff! That looked like a disaster! Most horrifically filthy and unorganized mess I have ever seen. I’m glad Honda is fixing yourself engine and have no opinion on the cause
Dang! Tough to have a new toy down for the count. Hopefully they get you taken care of and you can get back on the trails!!
Peter Tronset It sucks
Ray what's up Honda replacing you're engine? Figured you would be back out on the trails now. 4/12/20
George Merrill I’m being told about 2 more weeks. Shipping slowed down due to the covid 19 situation. Waiting on 2 mounts that broke during shipping the 1st time
Thanks for the update looking forward to more videos
Not saying it is or isn't but I've been wrenching for 45 years and I have never seen that. Anyways I'm glad Honda is standing behind their product.
Daniel Mettetal You’re probably correct. For myself as long as they’re taking care of it doesn’t matter to me who’s picking up the tab as long as it’s not Ray Horvath 👍🏻
I need some of your video making skills! Good job!
Good info, I knew it had to be the air intake manifold boot or a loose clamp.
good informative video, it sucks I'm sure, glad they Honda stepped up. just got my first UTV and looking for some good places to ride... live north of you, up near Albuquerque.
Thanks man
I think whoever put the air filter back on did not do it correctly.
I saw the same exact thing happen to a quad after a service. The Mechanic forgot the air filter completely....
The Pioneer has a recall for this, loose and improperly installed throttle body clamps
Jacob Curtis........If you listen to him,3:10 he definitely said, it was not the clamps being loose. It was stated the connection between the Engine and the throttle body boots was not installed correctly at the factory. If you look, there is only one clamp on each boot.
Hey Ray I was just wondering if they finally got your machine back together and is it back to 100%. Thanks and stay safe buddy.
Danny Cardin 2 more weeks
Having issues with shipping
Ray Horvath Productions Thanks for the quick reply Ray I am a fan of your videos I like how you tell it like it is weather it’s good or bad I am really looking forward to hearing how everything works out with your machine. I truly hope you’re a happy camper when this is all over. 👍👍😊😊. I hope you and your family stay safe in these trying times. Take care.
Thanks man, those word mean a lot. Same to you and your families
Ignore the negative remarks, even Honda assembly can make a mistake
I’m calling BULLSHIT, that’s NOT where the dirt was getting in. Been a Honda tech for 20 plus years, and that’s not the issue.
Improperly installed air filter, or the air box boots. Those clamps are fine, I’d bet every Honda in my shop on it.
3:40 it's a hose clamp ! And IF it was leaking there you would have had a trouble code for a vacuum leak and a wondering idle. Tell you honda dealer to go on TH-cam and learn how replace the air filter properly.
I agree with you sir for 20 grand Honda should be responsible for your engine.
Ray,
is there anything they suggest to try and avoid this situation? TIA lol
I would say if you’re dealer does your maintenance, point this out to the and have them check (be very specific when explaining) or 2nd, if you do your own work, double check the entire area for induction leaks. Thanks again
I still love Honda way better than the rest but the whole intake system is badly designed
Don't go to that dealer again you got lied to.
Thanks Ray well done.!
Thanks for listening
That really is a bad way to connect the airbox to the intake ports of the head.
Maybe Honda will change the design
Somebody or some machine just did not tighten up them intake boots plain and simple they're hose clamps
This thing still in the shop after 6 months?
Trade in ...KRX 1000 is the new toy now. Thanks for asking. From what I understand it was fixed about 2 months ago and sold.
@@47rhorvath Nice👍🏻
first ive heard of these nothing on any of the forums, either. would seems its more an anamoly
Mine was one Problem after another. Finally sold it. Good riddance
So yes, Honda was telling you a lie about the crimping....
What code was it? Plz lmk
yeah it can happen to japanese brands too...
You are correct, nothing is sure thing. Thanks for the view
I thought u said on your last vid that u chose Honda because of the reliability an the product they use on there machines..so yea u picked a brand.
Fishy dealers lmao maybe they took it out joy riding ? I guess u will never know.. I did once too an after that nothing but problems now. I even think they went as far as replacing my good parts for shit parts. But I'm glad u got it sorted
u leak test that seal with a smoke machine and forced air
Not sure if they did
That thing has coronavirus
I think the talon got the corona virus
Did you learn enough to not buy a piece of s*** Honda
N
Hahahahaaa!!!!!! Bye a can am
That definitely wasn’t the problem u probably ran it with filter on wrong or no filter. Only one side would be scored u or ur Mech don’t know what to look for. Honda shouldn’t have given u a new engine it’s ur fault ughhh
Lesya Stepanchuk Thanks for the feedback, however if you had viewed the previous videos, you would know All maintenance 100% is done by my dealership. I’ve never turned a single bolt on any of my machines. Even if I wanted to, No time 1st of all, and 2nd even if I did have time, I can’t due to health issues. I respect and thank you for your comment, however maybe you should not judge without knowing all the facts. Perhaps I it’s because I grew up in a different time, but I find it amazing how people jump to conclusions with little or no insight on a situation. Nevertheless I Hope you have a great day and thank you for watching.
Crazy how people like you push blame on the owner....A HONDA DEALERSHIP DID ALL OF THE WORK!!! IF YOU CAN'T TRUST THE DEALERSHIP THE WTHF??