2:51 "OH SH**" came out of my mouth quite loudly lol I love when Allec does this with some of the videos I've seen, calm and everythings fine then he just drops the disaster part in without warning
So sorry to hear about your grandpa. He must have been mentally and emotionally tortured after this event. I know several people who “broke” after seeing and experiencing tragedy.
@@suzannesmith2452 Exactly my point firefighters and cops are there to face reality as opposed to normal civilians. Please read carefully before commenting next time.
Ex-news guy here. I've been watching Mr. Ibay's high-quality TH-cam video programs for some time (years), and he's good at this. Also, he and other quality TH-cam presenters WORK HARD to produce these vids, and I believe that both TH-cam and the various presenters should be given high credit for what they do. That and $ money $ donations!!! 💰
That’s a wonderful compliment from someone who knows professional work. I am new to the channel, but after watching this episode and reading your comment, I am a new subscriber.
As an information note, at the 7:30 mark is a picture of the actual DC-9 jetliner, which crashed on 9/9/69. Also, I have been to this crash site and there are still pieces of the aircraft in the farmer's field.
Thankfully air safety has progressed in the past fifty three years. RIP to all that perished. Amazing the Captain had logged nearly 24K hours at only 47yo. Most likely flew during the war and was probably lucky to get a commercial ticket afterwards. All very sad.
Much better than Allec eBay: th-cam.com/video/Jsrn4s-ogo0/w-d-xo.html "Virtue Signaling by posting RIP all over the internet while doing actually nothing to better the world. Social media narcissism at its finest." th-cam.com/video/PTmCxbcRXs4/w-d-xo.html Much better than Allec eBay: th-cam.com/video/Jsrn4s-ogo0/w-d-xo.html "Virtue Signaling by posting RIP all over the internet while doing actually nothing to better the world. Social media narcissism at its finest." th-cam.com/video/PTmCxbcRXs4/w-d-xo.html
@@maurice7413 Even though I flew with some guys with WW2 flight experience, I believe the majority of pilots from Allegheny, Mohawk, and Lake Central were GA.
Prior to ADSB, below 10,000ft was known as "Indian Territory" and you had to have your head on a swivel looking out for Apache's, Cherokees, Navajo, Iroquois etc.
I remember my first solo cross country. I was climbing to my cruise altitude in uncontrolled airspace when I saw a single engine cessna closing on me from the left. I shoved the control forward and we missed each other by 100 ft. I don't think the other pilot ever saw me. Even though he was only probably doing 140 knots it's unbelievable how fast he came up on me.
It may look like a big blue open space but there are imaginary corridors that the planes follow. That reduces the space considerably. A bit like two trains travelling across the huge USA but they are on the same track heading towards each other.
@@RonSeymour1 But the Piper was analogous to a car crossing the tracks. Even so, I would put this accident in the "Hand of Fate" category, because honestly you couldn't do this on purpose if you tried.
@@RonSeymour1 Yea that explains it better. But the crash over the Grand Canyon, 50s or 60s cant remember, I think that was before modern rules. Not sure though.
@@arinerm1331 I agree and I am no expert. Even so, a car crossing tracks is on a permanent road as is the track. Planes fly each route more or less the same way and at designated heights. If the height of each coincides with a busy air space the potential to collide is high. VFR is not always sufficient.
Randy Johnson, considered by many to be the greatest baseball pitcher of all time (albeit most say Nolan Ryan was the greatest), accidentally obliterated a flying pigeon with a beyond 100 mph fastball during a MLB game. If that can happen then two planes can absolutely collide midair.
While I've never seen confirmation of this, I've heard the story that Allegheny ran a customer survey that asked passengers about their satisfaction with different airlines, and when a fictional "US Air" scored higher than Allegheny, their execs changed the name from Allegheny to US Air (and eventually to US Airways).
One should note that the NTSB recommendation of the time (1969) is moot today, given that the then primary radar environment has been replaced with secondary radar with transponder codes and altitude information. Also, modern TCAS or ACAS were not available.
@chris i was thinking that. imagine the giant leap technology has undergone since the 60's at airports alone. running ATC radar on low power seems like the dumbest thing to do. I understand the nature of the need to do so, which runs along with my point of how advanced technology is now and how far radar can reach for precise readings.
A very similar occurrence took place over both Cerritos and San Diego. Both involved a private air craft and a commercial jetliner. Both were on clear sunny days.
i was a kid when this happened, father worked for ARINC, this accident was a big topic at his job....we used to fly Allegheny all the time to see my grand parents..from Ohare to Pittsburgh...
I grew up in Pittsburgh 1 mile from the airport. Allegheny jets used to fly over our house to land til they finally changed the flight path. what part of Pittsburgh did your grandparents live ?
That would suck watching the ground come upon you so fast knowing “this is it baby” I hope I and they will just pass out before hit the ground , that sucks with so many hours in the sky, nice video Josh , about time
I'm no pilot, but I've watched a lot of Air Crash Investigations episodes and it seems that one of the things that a jet needs to fly is the tail section of the plane. The vertical and horizontal stabilizer system just seems to make flying so much easier.
This was over a decade before TCAS came into being. It should have been looked into years before that as mid air collisions have happened since the beginning of aviation. The jet was so close to hitting that trailer park, thank goodness that didn't happen. Until I started watching air crash investigation videos such as this and Mayday I had no clue that radar and navigation was still relatively flawed as recently in the 1960s and 70s compared to today.
I don't think the technology to implement TCAS was quite "there yet" prior to when it actually WAS implemented. But yeah, it certainly would have been desirable.
@@Capecodham Traffic Collision Avoidance System. A safety system on modern aircraft that monitors transponders and warns if other traffic gets within a certain "bubble" of space around your own aircraft.
@@6omega2 What these type threads are full of are a closed club of elite who try to show how hip and cool they are by using aircraft terms that easily could be spelled out so the casual viewer could understand them.
This is so darn sad. Those poor people. I have a horrible feeling that this tragedy ended up predicting the Cerritos mid-air collision in 1986. Gutting is an understatement.
The last description doesn't make sense. How can you have a "minimum radar cross section" ? Your airplane is what it is. You mean hang a radar reflector off the tail?
radar cross section just means you paint a bigger target on the radars. this can be done by just adding metal stripes to the airframe to add more reflectivity. problems arrise with military fighters and stealth aircraft. for example a B2 has the radar cross section of a small bird if it in full stealth mode!
It's tragic, but at the very least between this and other infamous cases of mid-air collisions, we have the systems we have today. I'm surprised I've never heard of this one until now.
I live north of the crash site and they just a few years ago put a memorial up at the site of the crash. Approximately 39 of the victims are buried in a mass grave at the Catholic cemetery in Shelbyville Indiana. The carnage was horrific.
@@steveoconnor7069 At 30 miles a jetliner should be at 9000 if landing straight in. Lack of training of American pilots has caused many deaths of passengers.
Just bad luck, being in the wrong place at the wrong time…I believe this accident resulted in the ruling that restricted airspeed below 10000ft MSL to 250ias. Thankfully new technology eventually surfaced, TCAS specifically, that helps aircraft avoid one another, in any conditions. But mistakes will always be made, part of being human.
This was not the accident. The rule started in 1967. The Connie DC8 crash in 1961 resulted in a 250 knot limitation within 25 NM of destination. Before these rules the old guys told me it was normal to call flaps up at 400’ and accelerate to 300+. The 250 below 10,000 was a result of a TWA DC9 overrunning a Baron around 4,500’. TWA553 March 9, 1967. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_553
The NTSB recommends that all small aircraft should continuously throw strips of aluminum foil (chaff) out the window while in flight, to enlarge radar cross section 🙄
Don't commercial aircraft today have more sophisticated warning systems? I'm thinking of the near miss when the Japanese ATC kept trying to override what the pilots were getting from their warning systems.
I'm not entirely up to date on this, but i believe most large commercial airline aircraft and many smaller and even private planes are equipped with TCAS, which is a traffic alert system that shows the location of other airplanes to the pilots. These systems are independent of ground based equipment. Transponders identify aircraft to ATC on their screens, but I believe that they are not mandatory for all light aircraft.
That episode was a nail biter, if I remember correctly had that collision occured the death toll would have outdone Tenerife significantly, thank God they missed
I would be interested to know, of all the mid-air collisions involving commercial airliners, what proportion involved a collision with a light/non-commercial aircraft flying under VFR? I have a hunch it's quite high, but maybe that's my perception.
There is another well-known collision between a passenger airliner and a general aviation aircraft in the San Diego area, to the best of my recollection only a few years after this one. A Pacific Southwest Airlines 727 hit a Cessna, and I believe all perished in that incident, as well.
@@arinerm1331 There was two of them in California, one in 1978, that you quoted (Pacific Southwest Airlines 182 vs N7711G, a Cessna 172). 144 fatalities including 8 on the ground. The second one was the Cerritos disaster involving an Aeromexico DC-9 and a Piper PA-28 181 Archer that happened in August 31, 1986 that took the lives of 82 including 15 on the ground.
@@julosx Thank you for filling that in for me. It's been a long time since I saw the story of PSA Flight 182, and now I have only a vague recollection of the Aeromexico collision with the Piper, and I was even in California when that happened. Go figure.
I’m surprised that the powers to be could not foresee a potential disaster happening sooner or later. This is just crazy. I’m glad that air safety has evolved over the years and RIP to the souls who lost their lives to make air travel safer.
Are you-all reffering to the Los Angeles, LAX collision ? This Cerritos location, this would be a yes. Both this one and Allegany Flight 853 are similar and wierd, the LA one being the wierdest. 🤡 This truly dummy guy was flying his private plane in a commercial-flight restricted area (not supposed to be any other types of craft, small planes, helicopters, etc. flying in the area of big-jet appproach to LAX). This guy was flying with his wife and son from Burbank Airport (inland) to a chosen destination (from his flight plan) northeast of Burbank. But he was flying west, for some unknown reason, and INSIDE of the LAX approach zone. He had to have been aware in his past recent times of flying of the fact that it was both prohibited AND just plain dumb to fly where he went. Wtf ??? 🥴
At the time of the crash, KIND only had two runways, 31-15 (now 32-14) and 23-5, so your "31L" description is incorrect. Currently there are two 23-5 runways so they are labeled L & R.
A long time ago i used to live there and there was storys about it happing in the cornfield and the peoples souls are there. RIP to the people who died on that day
There was another midair in that part of the US....Commercial jet takes off and crashes into GA. Thanks for those old ones. I'm very much interested in anything pre 2000 especially pre 1980
This is so tragic. Case of a series of failures and events if only 1 were eliminated Kuya Allec Ebay would be submitting "All survived." For this tragic collision; alas is not so. Sad
@@TheRealSuperJAloha Jason. Is actually the pesky auto speller that corrects(?) Kuya's last name from Ibay to Ebay....grrr. I didn't catch that on this post. Kuya Allec is Pinoy. Surprise Allec with "salamat po" = Thank you. Walang anuman = You are welcome. Salamat po Jason for your being in the aviation community. Happy landings
When I was 14 years old my father and several volunteer firemen were watching a video of the great texas fire to allow the men to get a feel for what a disaster like that is like. I watched it with them. Bodys burned beyond regognition, heads, arms and legs seperated from bodies. Grown men in their 30's 40's and 50's were running outside to throw up. I don't know why but that stuff never affected me in that way. It is horrible, and I feel empathy for the victims, but as I grew up it never caused me any after effects. When I see someone hurt I simply perform the task at hand. I have known men who fainted at the site of a relative bleeding, at which time you are useless to the person needing help. I guess we are all very different.
Great video, great story. Kinda wondering why Alec made no mention of the fact that this type of occurrence can now largely be avoided through contemporary crash avoidance systems... Opinion: considering that both aircraft were flying on their designated routes, I believe that 100% of the blame with this occurrence falls onto ATC.
Imagine , just 17 yrs later, we’d have another Cherokee and DC9 midair over CA, finally bringing TCAS to the air carrier cockpits and altitude reporting transponders when flying around terminal control areas. Many FAA regulations have been written in blood.
A very well made analysis of this tragic accident. I did however have some trouble reading the captions, may I suggest making the font bold and increasing the black stroke to improve legibility in future videos?
This happened fairly close to the casino in Fairland. I live about 15 minutes away from the site. There's a website with unbelievable pics from the crash that would NEVER be taken and published now. Body parts. Get in a plane crash like this, and you are getting phuktup.
Ironically (x2) the only other mid air collision in Indiana history occured on september 11 1992..ugh..and involved a small plane from the same airport as this Cessna. The other plane carried prominent Indiana businessmen including our Lottery director. The small jet had just left Greenwood airport when the collision occured. The jet crashed about a mile from my house. The small plane crashed into a home killing the pilot the other 2 passengers were severely injured but survived
I'm curious what they would have done for the radar crosssection beyond changing the shape. I could only guess at the time they were thinking making more radar reflective material be present while hopefully not destroying the weight of the plane. Obviously transponders have helped fight that battle.
@@markbattista6857 No prob!! I know sometimes it is hard to get all the information first time around!! Occasionally I have had to replay a video to get everything straight!!
9/9/1969 Allegheny 853 Flight: Cincinnati OH to Indianapolis IN Past route: Boston MA, Baltimore MD Future Route: St. Louis MO Name: James Elrod, William Herckendorn Age: 47 (James), 26 (William) Flying time: 2.718379 years (James), 4.082187 months (William) On Board: 82 Plane Age: 1 Plane Type: DC-9-31 Survivors: 0% N7374J (4th Corporation) Flight: Brookside IN to Columbus IN Name: Robert Carey Age: 34 Flying time: 2.718379 years (James), 4.082187 months (William) On Board: 1 Plane Age: Not revealed Plane Type: PA-28 Cherokee Robert: Dead Status: Mid-Air Collision, Crash
After this incident, several change are make to aviation "Transponders are now installed in most general aviation aircraft and all commercial aircraft, dramatically increasing radar visibility of lower and slower-flying smaller aircraft, especially near atmospheric disturbances or other clutter (see Air Traffic Control Radar Beacon System and Secondary Surveillance Radar) Most airports with scheduled airline service now have a surrounding controlled airspace (ICAO designation Class B or Class C) for improved IFR and VFR traffic separation; all aircraft must be transponder-equipped and in communication with air traffic control to operate within this controlled airspace Most commercial and air-carrier aircraft now have an airborne collision avoidance(TCAS) device on board that can detect and warn about nearby transponder-equipped traffic ATC radar systems now have "conflict alert"-automated ground-based collision avoidance software that sounds an alarm when aircraft come within a minimum safe separation distance"
@@cattinkerbell4946 According to the video and FAA, the student pilot was particularly diligent in following his flight plan - that is the single most important thing a student pilot can do. He was on a long cross country, I doubt (would guess) that there was no established air corridors as we now call restricted airspace for VFR operations.
@@minutesfromdisaster OK, then I'm surprised an American company wanted that color. I'm not sure why, but somehow it is distractingly ugly to me. No doubt it's a matter of what one is used to, but this seems at least as questionable as the 1970's fascination with avocado as a color.
@@sammmy4495 it was. Aircraft he was on had trouble with his landing gear. Collided with a traffic copter. The debris fell over a elementary school and killed two kids.
@@WALTERBROADDUS That's the official story. But if you know that John was destined to be President, his wife was having an affair with a political opponent John Kerry and that Heinz foods would soon move operations out of the country........................... Call me skeptical with the official story.
What were the chances of them colliding...what were their chances they would be in the same cloud. 😢 I'd say not even once in a lifetime, but I've seen other videos of the same thing happening.
Thing is if you run the odds, there are SO MANY dang flights a day that statistically something like this happened every few years, even back in the 60's/70's with less air traffic. Thank goodness we have improved radar, procedures, and technology like TCAS to where mid-air collisions are almost a thing of the past with commercial airlines. Still happens every once in a blue moon with general aviation aircraft. The scary part is the number of runway collisions and near misses, we aren't ahead of the 8 ball so to speak at a lot of airports regarding that.
that's what happened in the collision over the Grand Canyon. TWA was on one side of the cloud and United was on the other side. by the time United saw the TWA it was too late
@@brianmcdonald6519 insensitive to who? You? You don’t get to decide what is and isn’t. Now, answer the damn question. Superglue can perform miracles these days.
Well fortunately today, commercial airlines are all in Positive Controlled Airspace. As long as VFR Joe fly's by the rules as doesn't violate airspace restrictions, this doesnt happen.
What was he doing near a known flight/approach path, regardless? I know they (GA) are / were allowed to fly VFR. It wasn't 100% VFR. Why should ATC have to guide him out or warn the DC9 if he was visible on screen. Weren't there controlled zones then (I forget what they are called. Terminal control Zones / Areas) The radar thing is unfortunate, but a side issue. Horrific tragedy. 100 metres from an occupied and traumatised trailer park.
Sure sounds like the NTSB and FAA were doing their darned best to try to hang the blame for this on either the approach controller or center controller for not resolving this conflict. Thank goodness times change and the likelihood of this incident repeating itself is now extremely remote. Class B/C airspace, transponders, TCAS and now ADSB have pretty well solved this problem.
Since I don't have an airspace chart from 1969 in front of me, and don't know what uncontrolled airspace (now called Class E) existed in that area, if it's truly uncontrolled, it's the responsibility of pilots to "see and avoid". Granted, AL 853 was on an IFR flight plan so they were in the "system" for separation from other traffic. However, as this video indicated, there was a broken layer at 4000' and AL 853 was given clearance to maintain 2500'. I don't know what altitude the collision occurred however, given the video comment about 14 seconds until impact, AL 853 was probably descending through the broken layer. The Cherokee pilot couldn't see what was blocked by clouds, and vice versa for the AL 853 crew. Tragic accident...
Wow it’s so sad that Allegheny Airlines Flight 358 and N7374J have collide in the mid air collision and crash both planes in the ground and then everyone on both aircraft are killed and dead.
2:51
"OH SH**" came out of my mouth quite loudly lol
I love when Allec does this with some of the videos I've seen, calm and everythings fine then he just drops the disaster part in without warning
Put un 2x and sound good
My grandpa was one of the firefighters who responded to the scene. He was never the same after.
Strange, Firefighters are usually trained to deal with those things. Car crashes, plane crashes etc... It's just part of the job.
@@XerxesGammon200 Not actually strange at all. Training versus reality is far different. PTSD is not uncommon in these professions.
So sorry to hear about your grandpa. He must have been mentally and emotionally tortured after this event. I know several people who “broke” after seeing and experiencing tragedy.
@@suzannesmith2452 Exactly my point firefighters and cops are there to face reality as opposed to normal civilians. Please read carefully before commenting next time.
@@XerxesGammon200 What’s with your attitude?
Ex-news guy here. I've been watching Mr. Ibay's high-quality TH-cam video programs for some time (years), and he's good at this. Also, he and other quality TH-cam presenters WORK HARD to produce these vids, and I believe that both TH-cam and the various presenters should be given high credit for what they do. That and $ money $ donations!!! 💰
They don’t do too badly from adverts! But also things like Patreon help
Much better than Allec eBay:
th-cam.com/video/Jsrn4s-ogo0/w-d-xo.html
That’s a wonderful compliment from someone who knows professional work. I am new to the channel, but after watching this episode and reading your comment, I am a new subscriber.
Been here since he had about 8k subs.
@@htos1av There are many better than Allec Ebay.
As an information note, at the 7:30 mark is a picture of the actual DC-9 jetliner, which crashed on 9/9/69. Also, I have been to this crash site and there are still pieces of the aircraft in the farmer's field.
Thankfully air safety has progressed in the past fifty three years. RIP to all that perished. Amazing the Captain had logged nearly 24K hours at only 47yo. Most likely flew during the war and was probably lucky to get a commercial ticket afterwards. All very sad.
Much better than Allec eBay:
th-cam.com/video/Jsrn4s-ogo0/w-d-xo.html
"Virtue Signaling by posting RIP all over the internet while doing actually nothing to better the world.
Social media narcissism at its finest."
th-cam.com/video/PTmCxbcRXs4/w-d-xo.html
Much better than Allec eBay:
th-cam.com/video/Jsrn4s-ogo0/w-d-xo.html
"Virtue Signaling by posting RIP all over the internet while doing actually nothing to better the world.
Social media narcissism at its finest."
th-cam.com/video/PTmCxbcRXs4/w-d-xo.html
The limitation commercially by the FAA is 1000hrs/yr. Some of us were hired at age 21 😃
There was such a long way to go to arrive where we are now, with each and every GA aircraft having a GPS and a transponder.
He was not a military pilot.
@@maurice7413 Even though I flew with some guys with WW2 flight experience, I believe the majority of pilots from Allegheny, Mohawk, and Lake Central were GA.
Prior to ADSB, below 10,000ft was known as "Indian Territory" and you had to have your head on a swivel looking out for Apache's, Cherokees, Navajo, Iroquois etc.
I remember my first solo cross country. I was climbing to my cruise altitude in uncontrolled airspace when I saw a single engine cessna closing on me from the left. I shoved the control forward and we missed each other by 100 ft. I don't think the other pilot ever saw me. Even though he was only probably doing 140 knots it's unbelievable how fast he came up on me.
It still blows my mind that out if that huge Big ole sky 2 planes can run into each other. And it's happened alot.
It may look like a big blue open space but there are imaginary corridors that the planes follow. That reduces the space considerably. A bit like two trains travelling across the huge USA but they are on the same track heading towards each other.
@@RonSeymour1 But the Piper was analogous to a car crossing the tracks.
Even so, I would put this accident in the "Hand of Fate" category, because honestly you couldn't do this on purpose if you tried.
@@RonSeymour1 Yea that explains it better. But the crash over the Grand Canyon, 50s or 60s cant remember, I think that was before modern rules. Not sure though.
@@arinerm1331 I agree and I am no expert. Even so, a car crossing tracks is on a permanent road as is the track. Planes fly each route more or less the same way and at designated heights. If the height of each coincides with a busy air space the potential to collide is high. VFR is not always sufficient.
Randy Johnson, considered by many to be the greatest baseball pitcher of all time (albeit most say Nolan Ryan was the greatest), accidentally obliterated a flying pigeon with a beyond 100 mph fastball during a MLB game. If that can happen then two planes can absolutely collide midair.
Thanks Allec .
Quite the coming together of influences to help create this event.
Live and learn, I always wish.
Rest In Peace
This literally reminds me of aeromaxico 498! The same passenger plane, the same small plane, collided in the same spot! That is actually creepy.
I know. And further more the two crashes had almost identical death tolls.
While I've never seen confirmation of this, I've heard the story that Allegheny ran a customer survey that asked passengers about their satisfaction with different airlines, and when a fictional "US Air" scored higher than Allegheny, their execs changed the name from Allegheny to US Air (and eventually to US Airways).
USELESS AIR....😏
US AIR… “Unfortunately Still Allegheny In Reality”.
Unfortunately Still Allegheny In Reality.
@@Primus54 merged out of business now.
@@WALTERBROADDUS Thank you, Captain Obvious! 😉
One should note that the NTSB recommendation of the time (1969) is moot today, given that the then primary radar environment has been replaced with secondary radar with transponder codes and altitude information. Also, modern TCAS or ACAS were not available.
@chris i was thinking that. imagine the giant leap technology has undergone since the 60's at airports alone. running ATC radar on low power seems like the dumbest thing to do. I understand the nature of the need to do so, which runs along with my point of how advanced technology is now and how far radar can reach for precise readings.
And imagine this, “see and avoid” supplemented by this tech still doesn’t prevent mid airs!
@@stephenbritton9297 Surprisingly effective. Haven't crashed yet haha 😅
A very similar occurrence took place over both Cerritos and San Diego. Both involved a private air craft and a commercial jetliner. Both were on clear sunny days.
i was a kid when this happened, father worked for ARINC, this accident was a big topic at his job....we used to fly Allegheny all the time to see my grand parents..from Ohare to Pittsburgh...
I grew up in Pittsburgh 1 mile from the airport. Allegheny jets used to fly over our house to land til they
finally changed the flight path. what part of Pittsburgh did your grandparents live ?
That would suck watching the ground come upon you so fast knowing “this is it baby” I hope I and they will just pass out before hit the ground , that sucks with so many hours in the sky, nice video Josh , about time
RIP
Robert W. Carey
(1935-1969)
and
To the passengers and crew of Allegheny Airlines Flight 853
As Mentour Pilot once said "Aviation rules is written by blood"
I barely remember this one, I was in 5th grade. Very informative, great post. RIP to all.
This is, sadly, what seems to be an excellent animation. Very tasteful, very informative. Thank you.
Damn, very unfortunate for both aircraft and crews. RIP to all.
One of your best yet 👍
my Uncle, an Australian Doctor , Dr Charles Grenville Picton-Warlow was killed in this accident. RIP Uncle Gren xx
Sorry, dear.
Another great video Allec, but what a tragic accident. 14 seconds….
It could have been much worse. Crashed only 100 meters from a mobile home park.
@@bills6093 absolutely right. I saw the shots of debris metres from the park edges. Would’ve been terrifying watching and hearing that coming down…
Hey buddy, can you do Flying Tiger Flight 66 when you get the chance? There is available CVR as well. Love your work
A very tragic and sad one. . Thanks for your excellent portrayal, Allec. . Hope all is well with you. . 👍✈️✈️👍
The parallels between this and Aeromexico flight 498 are uncanny…
Fudging scary
I'm no pilot, but I've watched a lot of Air Crash Investigations episodes and it seems that one of the things that a jet needs to fly is the tail section of the plane. The vertical and horizontal stabilizer system just seems to make flying so much easier.
This was over a decade before TCAS came into being. It should have been looked into years before that as mid air collisions have happened since the beginning of aviation. The jet was so close to hitting that trailer park, thank goodness that didn't happen.
Until I started watching air crash investigation videos such as this and Mayday I had no clue that radar and navigation was still relatively flawed as recently in the 1960s and 70s compared to today.
I don't think the technology to implement TCAS was quite "there yet" prior to when it actually WAS implemented. But yeah, it certainly would have been desirable.
TCAS?
@@Capecodham Traffic Collision Avoidance System. A safety system on modern aircraft that monitors transponders and warns if other traffic gets within a certain "bubble" of space around your own aircraft.
@@Capecodham Traffic Collision Avoidance System. They went to work on this after the PSA flight 182 crash in San Diego in 1978.
@@6omega2 What these type threads are full of are a closed club of elite who try to show how hip and cool they are by using aircraft terms
that easily could be spelled out so the casual viewer could understand them.
Many airplane crashes caused by laziness, incompetence and/or thick-headedness are labeled as "tragic".
This incident deserves the Tragic label.
Imagine if it landed on that mobile home park instead of just barely missing it.
This is so darn sad. Those poor people. I have a horrible feeling that this tragedy ended up predicting the Cerritos mid-air collision in 1986. Gutting is an understatement.
damn
Well done as usual.👍☘️
Never heard of this Mid Air. I thought I had heard of all of them. R.I.P. to all!
This one was hard to watch. Kept hoping the Allegheny pilots would get the plane down in one piece.
Neither side had any idea what was coming. Hopefully their suffering was short lived!
The last description doesn't make sense. How can you have a "minimum radar cross section" ? Your airplane is what it is.
You mean hang a radar reflector off the tail?
This is what I was thinking too. There must be an explanation.
radar cross section just means you paint a bigger target on the radars. this can be done by just adding metal stripes to the airframe to add more reflectivity. problems arrise with military fighters and stealth aircraft. for example a B2 has the radar cross section of a small bird if it in full stealth mode!
@@hirisk761 Thank you.
It's tragic, but at the very least between this and other infamous cases of mid-air collisions, we have the systems we have today. I'm surprised I've never heard of this one until now.
I live north of the crash site and they just a few years ago put a memorial up at the site of the crash. Approximately 39 of the victims are buried in a mass grave at the Catholic cemetery in Shelbyville Indiana. The carnage was horrific.
A commercial airliner told to descend to 2500 ft. many miles from the Indianapolis airport?
I live in the area but this is still a guess but no more than 30 miles.
@@steveoconnor7069 At 30 miles a jetliner should be at 9000 if landing straight in. Lack of training of American pilots has caused many deaths of passengers.
Just bad luck, being in the wrong place at the wrong time…I believe this accident resulted in the ruling that restricted airspeed below 10000ft MSL to 250ias. Thankfully new technology eventually surfaced, TCAS specifically, that helps aircraft avoid one another, in any conditions. But mistakes will always be made, part of being human.
This was not the accident. The rule started in 1967. The Connie DC8 crash in 1961 resulted in a 250 knot limitation within 25 NM of destination. Before these rules the old guys told me it was normal to call flaps up at 400’ and accelerate to 300+. The 250 below 10,000 was a result of a TWA DC9 overrunning a Baron around 4,500’. TWA553 March 9, 1967. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_553
The NTSB recommends that all small aircraft should continuously throw strips of aluminum foil (chaff) out the window while in flight, to enlarge radar cross section 🙄
what do you mean "🙄"
@@bananers9174 sarcasm
@@bananers9174 He's poking fun at the sometimes ridiculous and/or obvious recommendations made by the NTSB in response to aviation accidents.
Yeah, I too was wondering how, exactly, the NTSB was wanting small private aircraft to increase their RCS.
@@ThisHandleFeatureIsStupid oh, alright
What DC-9 model did you use?
Don't commercial aircraft today have more sophisticated warning systems? I'm thinking of the near miss when the Japanese ATC kept trying to override what the pilots were getting from their warning systems.
yes. Small planes have transponders too. And we don't do see and avoid around airports. Loads has changed.
I'm not entirely up to date on this, but i believe most large commercial airline aircraft and many smaller and even private planes are equipped with TCAS, which is a traffic alert system that shows the location of other airplanes to the pilots. These systems are independent of ground based equipment. Transponders identify aircraft to ATC on their screens, but I believe that they are not mandatory for all light aircraft.
That episode was a nail biter, if I remember correctly had that collision occured the death toll would have outdone Tenerife significantly, thank God they missed
What a beautiful photo starting at 6:25…
No one to blame here. RIP.
I would be interested to know, of all the mid-air collisions involving commercial airliners, what proportion involved a collision with a light/non-commercial aircraft flying under VFR? I have a hunch it's quite high, but maybe that's my perception.
There is another well-known collision between a passenger airliner and a general aviation aircraft in the San Diego area, to the best of my recollection only a few years after this one. A Pacific Southwest Airlines 727 hit a Cessna, and I believe all perished in that incident, as well.
@@arinerm1331 There was two of them in California, one in 1978, that you quoted (Pacific Southwest Airlines 182 vs N7711G, a Cessna 172). 144 fatalities including 8 on the ground. The second one was the Cerritos disaster involving an Aeromexico DC-9 and a Piper PA-28 181 Archer that happened in August 31, 1986 that took the lives of 82 including 15 on the ground.
@@julosx Thank you for filling that in for me. It's been a long time since I saw the story of PSA Flight 182, and now I have only a vague recollection of the Aeromexico collision with the Piper, and I was even in California when that happened. Go figure.
I’m surprised that the powers to be could not foresee a potential disaster happening sooner or later. This is just crazy. I’m glad that air safety has evolved over the years and RIP to the souls who lost their lives to make air travel safer.
What is it with piper Cherokees and dc9s colliding? 😐
IDK
They also hit the same place on the DC9
In the same place too the tail section
@@twisterman4184 yep
In 1986 a piper cherokee collided with a dc9 in California in the tail section that crash killed 82 people
Um this reminds me of 1986 cerritos mid air collision
Thought the same thing.
@@mar1812 Also.
Are you-all reffering to the Los Angeles, LAX collision ? This Cerritos location, this would be a yes. Both this one and Allegany Flight 853 are similar and wierd, the LA one being the wierdest. 🤡 This truly dummy guy was flying his private plane in a commercial-flight restricted area (not supposed to be any other types of craft, small planes, helicopters, etc. flying in the area of big-jet appproach to LAX). This guy was flying with his wife and son from Burbank Airport (inland) to a chosen destination (from his flight plan) northeast of Burbank. But he was flying west, for some unknown reason, and INSIDE of the LAX approach zone. He had to have been aware in his past recent times of flying of the fact that it was both prohibited AND just plain dumb to fly where he went. Wtf ??? 🥴
At the time of the crash, KIND only had two runways, 31-15 (now 32-14) and 23-5, so your "31L" description is incorrect. Currently there are two 23-5 runways so they are labeled L & R.
the paint job for on piper Cherokee mod you have is the same as my dads piper Cherokee
A long time ago i used to live there and there was storys about it happing in the cornfield and the peoples souls are there. RIP to the people who died on that day
I had no idea that the range of the radar from Indianapolis was that strong. It's a 30 minute drive to the airport from the crash site, easy.
There was another midair in that part of the US....Commercial jet takes off and crashes into GA. Thanks for those old ones. I'm very much interested in anything pre 2000 especially pre 1980
This is so tragic. Case of a series of failures and events if only 1 were eliminated Kuya Allec Ebay would be submitting "All survived." For this tragic collision; alas is not so. Sad
I too, constantly read his last name as eBay.
@@TheRealSuperJAloha Jason. Is actually the pesky auto speller that corrects(?) Kuya's last name from Ibay to Ebay....grrr. I didn't catch that on this post. Kuya Allec is Pinoy. Surprise Allec with "salamat po" = Thank you. Walang anuman = You are welcome. Salamat po Jason for your being in the aviation community. Happy landings
When I was 14 years old my father and several volunteer firemen were watching a video of the great texas fire to allow the men to get a feel for what a disaster like that is like. I watched it with them. Bodys burned beyond regognition, heads, arms and legs seperated from bodies. Grown men in their 30's 40's and 50's were running outside to throw up. I don't know why but that stuff never affected me in that way. It is horrible, and I feel empathy for the victims, but as I grew up it never caused me any after effects. When I see someone hurt I simply perform the task at hand. I have known men who fainted at the site of a relative bleeding, at which time you are useless to the person needing help. I guess we are all very different.
Great video, great story. Kinda wondering why Alec made no mention of the fact that this type of occurrence can now largely be avoided through contemporary crash avoidance systems...
Opinion: considering that both aircraft were flying on their designated routes, I believe that 100% of the blame with this occurrence falls onto ATC.
Imagine , just 17 yrs later, we’d have another Cherokee and DC9 midair over CA, finally bringing TCAS to the air carrier cockpits and altitude reporting transponders when flying around terminal control areas. Many FAA regulations have been written in blood.
This was just like that Aeromexico flight
It amazes me how many head-on collisions occur in the sky given the technology available.
A very well made analysis of this tragic accident.
I did however have some trouble reading the captions, may I suggest making the font bold and increasing the black stroke to improve legibility in future videos?
This happened fairly close to the casino in Fairland. I live about 15 minutes away from the site. There's a website with unbelievable pics from the crash that would NEVER be taken and published now. Body parts. Get in a plane crash like this, and you are getting phuktup.
So where did the other plane crash?
They went down together in the same farm field.
Ironically (x2) the only other mid air collision in Indiana history occured on september 11 1992..ugh..and involved a small plane from the same airport as this Cessna. The other plane carried prominent Indiana businessmen including our Lottery director. The small jet had just left Greenwood airport when the collision occured. The jet crashed about a mile from my house. The small plane crashed into a home killing the pilot the other 2 passengers were severely injured but survived
Dear Kuya Allec Ebay. Was that an actual photo of the small aircraft photo? Salamat po.
What became of the piper and its pilot?
It crashed and he died too sadly
I'm curious what they would have done for the radar crosssection beyond changing the shape. I could only guess at the time they were thinking making more radar reflective material be present while hopefully not destroying the weight of the plane. Obviously transponders have helped fight that battle.
The controller sent both planes to the same point at the same time. . . .or what happened?
The small plane never showed on radar. ATC did not know it was there!!
Wow , I’ve never heard of this one
Can you do a video on the sun valley mall plane crash in 1985 pls?
You really need to upgrade your simulation software. Your competitors have and the difference is striking.
may god rest there poor souls its been a long time ago but its still sad as well all of the aircraft has went down over the years
My brother was the co-pilot.
So young. I'm sorry.
Do you have any information on the student pilot of Piper and if he continued with his flying career ? Thanks
I think if you watch carefully, you’ll understand that his career ended the instant he hit the jet’s tailplane. 🥺
The video says no one survived!!
@@brianmcdonald6519 I missed it. , Thanks
@@martinross5521 I missed it , Thanks
@@markbattista6857 No prob!! I know sometimes it is hard to get all the information first time around!! Occasionally I have had to replay a video to get everything straight!!
9/9/1969
Allegheny 853
Flight: Cincinnati OH to Indianapolis IN
Past route: Boston MA, Baltimore MD
Future Route: St. Louis MO
Name: James Elrod, William Herckendorn
Age: 47 (James), 26 (William)
Flying time: 2.718379 years (James), 4.082187 months (William)
On Board: 82
Plane Age: 1
Plane Type: DC-9-31
Survivors: 0%
N7374J (4th Corporation)
Flight: Brookside IN to Columbus IN
Name: Robert Carey
Age: 34
Flying time: 2.718379 years (James), 4.082187 months (William)
On Board: 1
Plane Age: Not revealed
Plane Type: PA-28 Cherokee
Robert: Dead
Status: Mid-Air Collision, Crash
The only improvement out of this tragedy is... improve the cross-section (visibility) of the smaller aircraft?!!
They eventually made many more changes. Took a few more years for tech to catch up.
The NTSB also recommended that pilots avoid inversion following a loss of the tail section.
Fuckin' NTSB sometimes, man... 🤦♂
unfortunately the upgrades were tombstone upgrades. just like airplane ops guides are written in blood. only updated after a fatality
Back in the days when only the big boys had transponders.
After this incident, several change are make to aviation
"Transponders are now installed in most general aviation aircraft and all commercial aircraft, dramatically increasing radar visibility of lower and slower-flying smaller aircraft, especially near atmospheric disturbances or other clutter (see Air Traffic Control Radar Beacon System and Secondary Surveillance Radar)
Most airports with scheduled airline service now have a surrounding controlled airspace (ICAO designation Class B or Class C) for improved IFR and VFR traffic separation; all aircraft must be transponder-equipped and in communication with air traffic control to operate within this controlled airspace
Most commercial and air-carrier aircraft now have an airborne collision avoidance(TCAS) device on board that can detect and warn about nearby transponder-equipped traffic
ATC radar systems now have "conflict alert"-automated ground-based collision avoidance software that sounds an alarm when aircraft come within a minimum safe separation distance"
Wow, truly an accident. Big as the sky is, some technology, and they still crossed paths. What are the odds. R.I.P.
Random, out of nowhere, completely avoidable things like this make me never want to fly again.
I don't get it. Someone must be responsible for both planes being on the same altitude in the same area?
Who do you think should be responsible?🙄
@@karlr6810 Maybe the pilot of the Piper? I thought you have to announce yourself when entering an air corridor near an airport?
@@cattinkerbell4946 According to the video and FAA, the student pilot was particularly diligent in following his flight plan - that is the single most important thing a student pilot can do. He was on a long cross country, I doubt (would guess) that there was no established air corridors as we now call restricted airspace for VFR operations.
@@michael2782 You may be right, it was way back then...
@@karlr6810 It's all Bushes fault.
0:45 Beautiful blue sky
I'm surprised the DC-9 had a blue cockpit interior, like Soviet planes do.
all dc-9 had custom interiors depending on the customer
@@minutesfromdisaster OK, then I'm surprised an American company wanted that color. I'm not sure why, but somehow it is distractingly ugly to me. No doubt it's a matter of what one is used to, but this seems at least as questionable as the 1970's fascination with avocado as a color.
Man, talk about horrible luck. I mean, what are the chances? Also never would have guessed that a Piper Cherokee was a stealth aircraft.
Still want the Sen. John Heinz mid air over Lower Merion Elementary......
"accident"??? not likely.
@@sammmy4495 it was. Aircraft he was on had trouble with his landing gear. Collided with a traffic copter. The debris fell over a elementary school and killed two kids.
@@WALTERBROADDUS That's the official story. But if you know that John was destined to be President, his wife was having an affair with a political opponent John Kerry and that Heinz foods would soon move operations out of the country........................... Call me skeptical with the official story.
@@sammmy4495 Foul Play by traffic helicopter?😒🚁 That is bit too James Bond SPECTRE villian.
What were the chances of them colliding...what were their chances they would be in the same cloud. 😢 I'd say not even once in a lifetime, but I've seen other videos of the same thing happening.
Mega Millions odds...
Thing is if you run the odds, there are SO MANY dang flights a day that statistically something like this happened every few years, even back in the 60's/70's with less air traffic. Thank goodness we have improved radar, procedures, and technology like TCAS to where mid-air collisions are almost a thing of the past with commercial airlines. Still happens every once in a blue moon with general aviation aircraft. The scary part is the number of runway collisions and near misses, we aren't ahead of the 8 ball so to speak at a lot of airports regarding that.
that's what happened in the collision over the Grand Canyon. TWA was on one side of the cloud and United was on the other side. by the time United saw the TWA it was too late
Was the aircraft repaired and returned to service?
That is a very insensitive comment!! PLEASE think before posting!!
@@brianmcdonald6519 insensitive to who? You? You don’t get to decide what is and isn’t. Now, answer the damn question. Superglue can perform miracles these days.
@@lohrtom Insensitive to everyone involved!! You are a JERK!!
Sometimes it's just your time to go.. This was the perfect storm
Similar to Aeromexico 498 crash in Cerritos
Well fortunately today, commercial airlines are all in Positive Controlled Airspace. As long as VFR Joe fly's by the rules as doesn't violate airspace restrictions, this doesnt happen.
I remember this accident. Sad.
What was he doing near a known flight/approach path, regardless?
I know they (GA) are / were allowed to fly VFR. It wasn't 100% VFR.
Why should ATC have to guide him out or warn the DC9 if he was visible on screen.
Weren't there controlled zones then (I forget what they are called. Terminal control Zones / Areas)
The radar thing is unfortunate, but a side issue.
Horrific tragedy.
100 metres from an occupied and traumatised trailer park.
I reckon that sometimes it all comes down to luck - or lack thereof. Damn.
Sure sounds like the NTSB and FAA were doing their darned best to try to hang the blame for this on either the approach controller or center controller for not resolving this conflict. Thank goodness times change and the likelihood of this incident repeating itself is now extremely remote. Class B/C airspace, transponders, TCAS and now ADSB have pretty well solved this problem.
So who was in the wrong air space ?
Since I don't have an airspace chart from 1969 in front of me, and don't know what uncontrolled airspace (now called Class E) existed in that area, if it's truly uncontrolled, it's the responsibility of pilots to "see and avoid". Granted, AL 853 was on an IFR flight plan so they were in the "system" for separation from other traffic. However, as this video indicated, there was a broken layer at 4000' and AL 853 was given clearance to maintain 2500'. I don't know what altitude the collision occurred however, given the video comment about 14 seconds until impact, AL 853 was probably descending through the broken layer. The Cherokee pilot couldn't see what was blocked by clouds, and vice versa for the AL 853 crew.
Tragic accident...
@@karlr6810 thank you
Stupid advertising… great content!
Wow it’s so sad that Allegheny Airlines Flight 358 and N7374J have collide in the mid air collision and crash both planes in the ground and then everyone on both aircraft are killed and dead.
there's talk of lemon trees in shelbyville
Lol I’m from Boggstown, What’s this talk of lemon trees?
Everybody involved did what they were supposed to do,
and still died.
i never about this crash till today
So what happened to the Cherokee?
WOW!! Talk about no clue!! It was smashed to smithereens on collision with the jet!!
Unbelievable lack of protection of the cone of descent into a major airport. DUH. Of course you have collisions.