The time compression in the film really changes Chani and Paul's relationship. they don't have Leto II, so there isn't that history, so they are far earlier in when Paul proposes his political marrage. Also, the friction between Paul and Chani is base in their philosophical ideas of where the Fremen should be lead to. Chani see Paul as treating the Fremen a tool for his own ends, no different then any other colonising outsider, not as a Fremen seeking what is best for his people. I like that in the film, but still love the book. You can do both. I don't remember anywhere in the books it saying Jessica altering the sex of the fetus, she just didn't alter the sex when she conceived a child and it developed as a boy, whish is what the Bene Bene Gesserit had ordered. It is implied she may have, "but he so wanted a boy" but it's one of those question best left unanswered.
It’s me! Hi! I’m the problem, it’s me! 👋🏻 Of course I had to talk about Star Wars for an hour, it was right after May 4th! But if anyone is wondering, aside from the beautifully summarized points Wera made, another aspect of my point was also the target audience. Lucas has made it clear that Star Wars was always meant to be primarily for kids, and because of that it is framed by, fora lack of a better term, “simplified” narratives - Hero’s Journey, found family etc. That’s why it was so jarring for many to suddenly shift from the Original Trilogy to the Prequels when they had come out - it attempted to tie in more adult narratives. As someone who grew up on the animated shows, they definitely got better at this over time. But I also think through this lens, Star Wars was able to tell more difficult and heavier stories about the realities of war, and introduce children thought this storytelling medium to the aspects of life they might be experiencing themselves …
I like both Star Wars OT and Dune, but honestly, right now, Dune supasses it, because 1) current Star Wars sucks and there's never been a time where I've been this uninterested in the franchise, 2) I'm an adult now, and therefore prefer the maturity and complexity of Dune a lot more, but also because its themes are significantly more relatable. It tackles elements of the Human ecology that are never going to go away: politics, economics, religion, etc. Star Wars, the original trilogy (my headcanon doesn't acknowledge the prequels nor the sequels), are a feel-good movies, good versus evil, the hero's journey - absolute classic! They are very different of course, but my current mindset is seeking more mature scifi, because there's only so much you can do with good versus evil types stories.
Heretics of Dune and Chapter House Dune need to be taken together since it is the same story arc but they are my favorite books aside from the first one. My favorite Dune character is Murbella and second place is Sheeana, which are both in those books. I hope these books are what The Sisterhood TV series will be about if the rumors are true and we in fact get a TV series.
The trailer for the sisterhood tv show dropped this week! It’s called Dune: The Prophecy. But I think it’s adapting the Brian Herbert works. I can’t wait to read heretics and chapterhouse especially because I keep hearing fantastic things about the characters!
@@valliyarnl from someone who has read the book Sisterhood of Dune, this series looks like it is based on that book. Ten thousand years before Paul is born, just after the Guild is established(maybe), and the name of the founder of the Sisterhood all point to that book...
Nice editing! The quality of your vids is improving wonderfully. As for the Dune I have only watched the movies and loved them. Will now read the books and hopefully catch up before your next vid to enter the discussion. Keep up the good work! ❤🔥
Aww thank you it means a lot ☺️ I hope you enjoy the books! As for the video about the last 4 books video that’ll come out either when Dune Prophecy premieres (if it’s popular) but more likely it’ll be when Dune Messiah the movie comes out (for algorithm reasons 🤪) so you have plenty of time! 😄
I think the ending of the book works a lot better because Paul and Chani have been together for what, 2 or 3 years? She WANTS to be seen as his wife because she loves him, there's nothing misogynistic about that. Obviously the universe they live in is fairly patriarchial but that doesn't mean that's what the story is trying to say is good. I didn't hate the movie ending but they've certainly put Chani in an awkward position and I don't see how they'll be able to adapt the rest of the books, I've only read up to Messiah so far but so far as I know their kids are super important. My guess is it will turn out that Chani was pregnant at the end of part II but her relationship with Paul is obviously quite deeply changed here which will of course change how things turn out with their children, one would imagine. To me at least I think Chani just felt quite betrayed by Paul being adamant he's not going to rule over the Fremen and then just doing so, I don't think she was all that sad about him marrying Irulan or anything it's just that he went against his promises to her, remains to be seen if that can be patched over. It would make a lot of sense if there's a solid timeskip for Messiah wherein which he proved his loyalty to her, this would also give Alia time to get a good bit older. Which I'd highly appreciate, one of my biggest concerns for Part II was that they'd do a horrifying CGI Twilight baby, her being active in utero was super cool.
Chani is the worst book to movie change ever. From loving and supportive to dismissive and on a high horse. She acted like she had read Dune: Messiah ffs. Gee thanks Denis. Can't wait for a proper adaptation in another few decades. Dune is awesome visually and audibly. But the narrative is SO on the nose. And Paul refuses to go South until he has a vision where Jamis is talking about why a hunter must see? YOU MUST SEE: YOU NEED TO SEE. YADA YADA lol that is the weakest writing ever. And Stilgar reminded me of Life of Brian for crying out loud xD
I may be hella late, but the last books written by Brian won't make sense if you have not read the Dune Legends Trilogy (the one happening 10.000 years before dune) and you will hate the ending. So, how was the ending in Brian's books? :)
My enjoyment of the latest adaptation is significantly reduced by reading the books and watching the mini-series (those are very faithful to the books!). I like part 1, but part 2 seems to have changed TOO much of the source material (the whole thing with split ideologies of fremen tribes and Chani being a pouting feminist from 2020s). Feels like this movie hits you on the head with the message "don't trust charismatic leaders", instead of a subtle message of the book and exploring the tragedy of Paul's path. This made the ending of the movie feel like the worst art-house stuff - unsatisfying, unable to connect or empathize with any of the characters.
HIIIIGHLLLY recommend mini-series. The first 3 episodes that cover the first book is a bit rough and some of the B-grade extras acting and the costumes... dear God the costumes almost ruin it entirely. But it's the most faithful to the story. Includes spice orgy, Alia is born, Chani and Paul's first son, Baron Harkonnen talkative and gloating nature.. it has everything. Water of life ceremony is longer and more psychodelic etc.... The last 3 episodes which cover Messiah and Children of Dune are PHENOMENAL... James McAvoy who plays Leto II... the actress who plays Saint Alia of the Knife... it's amazing. Unpopular opinion but Villeneuve really f*cked up and fumbled this series hard for me. I was so excited for part 2 as I thought it would destroy every single adaptation in the past, including other franchises that were inspired by Dune: Star Wars, Matrix, Avatar etc. but it did the complete opposite for me and made me appreciate them more. Because all those other adaptions or movies influenced by Dune capture the grittiness and weirdness. Villeneuves Dune part 2 was like a parody/cartoon of the book but worse because he altered the ending. And if anyone has read the books they would understand how connected they all are from the very first book to the very end (Chapterhouse), the next 5 books make so many references to the first one it's like the God damn old testament.. To change and alter someone or something beyond recognition alters the events and how the story will play out in the future. I've actually never seen someone screw up so badly, and I'm even more disappointed because I love Villeneuves previous movies including Dune part 1. But this movie felt to me like he just betrayed himself totally, either that or he never liked the original story of Dune to begin and just wanted to change it for his own selfish pleasure... part 3 is gonna suck in my opinion. and I'm willing to put money on it. Thank God we will always have the books, I want to erase part 2 from my mind (except the worm ride scene, Geidi Prime scene, the tent scene when he receives his name, the speech was cool but could've been built up to better to give it more weight........lol)
Wow this is a very unpopular opinion but I do see where you are coming from. I think in one interview someone said that yes this is a Dune adaptation, but it is a Denis’s Dune not Frank’s (for better or worse). I’m sorry you didn’t like part 2 but you’ve definitely convinced me to watch the miniseries because I LOVE Alia (my favorite Dune character and I need to see her in love action!)
i took over a year to read through the first dune book so that i could have read it before the second movie came out, i’m just so bad at reading that i dont want to read another one if they really are doing a third part movie. i envy people who are good at reading, but it just takes me so long to get anywhere that i get burned out.
If George Lucas kept StarWars original ending of Luke Skywalker putting on Vader's helmet and becoming the new Emporer, then its core message would be far more similar to Dune. Other than the core message being fundamentally different the basic premise is the same. A foreign man who lives on a sand planet (who is secretly descended from the emperor's main henchman) decides to rebel against the evil intergalactic Emporer for murdering his family. With the assistance of his sister (who also has special genetically inherited psychic powers) he becomes a hero of the rebellion and they finally manage to overthrow the evil Emporer and restore peace and prosperity to the galaxy (not really).
Ah, surprise misogyny...we meet again. As if a millenia spanning, power wielding, puppet mastering cult-sisterhood of superhero women controlling the universe isn't clearly a sign of the patriarchy. Jk... Seriously, though; I think the movie could have done a little better expressing Chani's understanding and acceptance of the political situation from the end of book one. The book does this in a way that empowers Chani at least in as much as she's not caught off guard or shocked because she was too innocent or naive to understand the nature of Paul's actions/decisions. In the book Chani helps Paul actually make the decision, if I remember correctly. Maybe it wasn't possible with the film's time constraint or whatever. I don't think it was overtly sexist but I guess maybe inadvertently it could have been(?). The sci-fi mini-series' are both good. The original Dune adaptation is pretty dated now but isn't too bad. Children of Dune ( which covers Messiah, too) is pretty excellent even still.
I kind of liked they way Chani was portrayed when I first say Dune part 2, but as I was rereading the first book I honestly just got really really annoyed with movie Chani, like I get what they were going for but I think the actual love story of Chani and Paul where by Messiah Chani is questioning some of Paul's decisions and Paul knows some terrible things that will happen to his love and that he cant prevent it gets completely ruined by the sassy attitude as opposed to the laconic fremenisms of book Chani.
for me i kind of found Chani bland in the books and they wanted to show the audience the other perspective on Paul's actions, so I'm not mad at the change personally bc i think it does work for the movie
My hot take on Dune, which became especially clearer to me after having seen Part 2, is that Paul is totally unambiguously the hero and it's extremely reductive to suggest otherwise. The most common analysis you find with respect to Dune is that it's meant as a cautionary tale, a warning against the allure of charismatic leaders. So says Herbert, anyway. But this, from my perspective, only becomes applicable if you read Dune Messiah. Reading Dune in isolation without any of the sequels doesn't really convey this message, outside of a few allusions to Paul's greater destiny and the admittedly horrible consequences of said destiny. On the whole, the first book is very much cast in the mold of the Hero's Journey as outlined by Joseph Campbell. This is admittedly going to be my own interpretation, but I don't really believe Herbert's original intention is what he always claimed it to be. The first book touches on very primal themes that, as moderns, we find threatening and/or dangerous. Paul is a Great Man of history, as Thomas Carlyle would have said. He shakes the soil (or in this case, the sand lol) upon which he walks. The collective destiny of his people falls on him, and he rises to the occasion just as his father told him. Great Men do not accomplish wonders by being "nice." The moral questions here are not as simple as "good" or "bad." In purely practical terms, Paul is simply the best option, especially when you consider who his enemies are. I think Herbert realized this after writing the first book and felt like he had to correct the record, so to speak; basically, make sure everybody explicitly knows that "actually Paul is the villain and you're not supposed to like him." Again, my personal read on it but take it for whatever it's worth. And more to the point, are we really going to pretend the Harkonnens are unfairly maligned? The Baron had Paul's father killed. I think most people understand, on a primal level, that this was a great injustice and had to be repaid in full in order to set the cosmos right. For all the problems I have with Part 2 as a film, particularly the script, Paul's ascension at the end of the film totally works. That final moment where he emerges victorious, pulls the knife from his side, limps over to the Emperor and demands he kiss the ring was excellent. He should be kissing the ring after what HE HIMSELF conspired to do! And this is despite the film using Chani (the major problem) to tell me "well actually Paul is going down a dangerous path and it's not right for him to do what he's doing, etc." So when you look at it from the macro level, what Dennis did with the film was adapt the rest of the first book (with some things left out, obviously) while peppering in the themes of the second book. In my view, this does nothing but confuse the audience who have been following Paul since the first film, having seen his trials and tribulations and will almost certainly find him the most relatable character. He's the centerpiece of the story, but Chani was weaponized against him for the sole purpose of instructing the audience on what they're supposed to take away from the film thematically. She's the only character being positioned as "rational", almost too a meta level. It's like she's aware of the meta commentary surrounding Dune and its themes and she's expositing it for the audience who may not have read the books. We just can't allow those pesky viewers to form their own conclusions, I guess. Hence the portrayal of Stilgar as a dumb religious zealot who doubles as comic relief. A lot of this stuff was just not subtle at all. My bad for the book report/rant ;) but these thoughts have been with me since seeing the film (which I still like on the whole, but have major issues with).
I view Paul as far more of a *victim* than a villain, his only real options were to enact the plot of the movie or die and let the Harkonnen's win and keep everything functioning the same as it has for thousands of years to the detriment of the Fremen and everyone else abused by the Empire. Like what he does and what ends up happening later is obviously freakishly terrible but I feel like people take away the agency of the Fremen a lot here. In both the movie and the book it's made abundantly clear that once Paul has been seen as the Lisan al Gaib...that's it, the Jihad happens no matter what, even if he dies. The fierce zealotry of the Fremen people means he couldn't have done anything to stop them and he only knew this would happen once he took that poison, by then it was too late for him to change anything. He is a consequence and a victim of the Bene Gesserit meddling and the eons long feud between the two houses, he had every right to want revenge for his fathers murder and realistically what other option did he have when the Emperor was in on it? He could literally only die or go along destinies path. The Jihad is really just the wider universes comeuppance for their enslavement of the Fremen, it frankly barely has anything to do with Paul, all it was ever going to take was one person to unite them. I don't really see Paul as a hero or a villain he's just massively unfortunate to have been born in this universe. (FYI I've only read the first two books so not sure if anything later goes against what I've said here but from these two alone this is how I feel about Paul so far)
Definitely not a 'hot' take anymore, but... 1. Denis, and a lot of readers seem to miss the point of shield-fighting in the book. The shields are really there as an allegory/explanation of the political combat of the houses and emperor. The political machinations of the book never really felt present in the parts 1 & 2. 2. Omitting that Fremen were bribing the Spacing Guild, so that the southern half of Arrakis can't be observed. The book Fremen have a lot more 'soft' power than most realize and this plays into their goal of terraforming the planet. But, the movie really wants to insist on a modern colonialist interpretation. Finally, Denis' version of the Paul-Feyd duel, while visually stunning, just didn't have the tension of Lynch's film. Compare the swordfights of 'The Duelists' to most modern sword choreography if you'd like a reference.
I’m sorry but I don’t understand the “Irulan spoils everything in the intros” take. I think it’s chapter two, where they tell the reader exactly what is about to happen?? And it does!
I can see comparing Dune with The lord of the Rings movies being that they are both done in an epic scale. I loved both adaptations.. I also agree with your take on Paul and Chani’s relationship where he is only marrying Irulan for political reasons and Chani will always be known as the woman behind the scenes.. yes, read the book! And I could never relate Dune with Star Wars! Star Wars Vs. Star Trek? Much better argument.. lol Always enjoy watching your content Wera, you explain everything so well… And… Edric! Hahaha never thought about the his mouth looked!! 😂😂
Well now I see Edric in a whole different way! And yes you should watch Star Trek, I was never a huge fan of the original series but did enjoy the movies.. Next Generation series I did like!
The 1984 version of Dune was okay for its time, although it is nowhere near as good as the book. The new version of Dune was brilliant in my opinion, and the series on the Sci-fi Channel were great as well. I've only made it as far as Dune Messiah as far as the books go, and I've moved on to Stephen King for a while, but hopefully I will finish the Dune series eventually.
Kevin J. Anderson nie jest zbyt dobrym pisarzem, nie polecam jego książek. Mnie adaptacja Diuny rozczarowała. Przede wszystkim Denis Villeneuve spłycił przekaz, do tego przekaz był nadmiernie łopatologiczny - widz był potraktowany jak idiota. Do tego zmiany, żeby to jeszcze były zmiany na lepsze... ale nie były to zmiany na lepsze. Arrival i Blade Runner 2049 wyszły mu bardzo dobrze, więc się spodziewałem więcej. Jedyny plus to, że Diuna Villeneuvea jest wizualnie bardzo dobra. Miles Teg to nieprawdopodobnie dobrze napisana postać dowódczy wojskowego - co jest rzadkością - dlatego jest moją ulubioną postacią w tym cyklu.
Hello Wera, I visited your TH-cam channel. Your content is very nice but your video title description and tags are not SEO properly so you are not able to reach more audience, if you want your video to reach more audience then you need to SEO properly, this will increase your channel greatly.
You just had a grass-fed ribeye steak then the next day you eat spam. That's what it's like reading Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson's prequel books after reading Frank Herbert's original six books. They completely differ in writing skill, depth, and stratum. There's nothing wrong with different writing style. However, if you're going to take on the challenge of continuing Herbert's Dune, you need a writer with the skills and experience comparable to Frank not a couple of trashy, juvenile pulp fiction writers with virtually no experience as in the case of Brian Herbert. Anderson has some....I guess.... kind of. If you consider SW books as worthwhile reading. I'm with the majority about Messiah. It is the weakest of the six but I'm kind of strange in that my fave is God Emperor followed by Heretics, Dune, Chapterhouse, and Children. I love that the Bene Gesserit are front & centre in Heretics and Chapterhouse and that Atreides scions are everywhere, common folk, yet some hold positions of power.
Star Wars topic is boring. The very thing that they talk about “lore”… Lucas is a genius. 😂 fanfic writers and he just said: “yep! That’s official lore!” Why? Because that way he gained tons of money. That’s why. 😂 There is that. Nothing else exists just 3 movies and later some games… and then came episode 1. All the rest is fanfic. That’s all. But it’s fun to create ideas. I did that too and I read a lot of these back then when I was little. Helped to keep reading. Children of Dune is a pretty decent mini series. The Dune mini series is not. And not just the money is the problem. It suffers because it lacks of any imagination. Saw amateur videos better because they were passionate to do it. This lmbtq allegory is ridiculous. It’s just genetics. Frank just gives a strong argument on the power of humanity over technology.nowadays of course everything is that. Misogyny… 😂😂 as you said.
Now THAT is a hot take on Star Wars. Again, I’m not too well versed on it, but from what I know that is SIZZLING 🔥. Tbh I didn’t even know there’s a dune miniseries. I find something new out every day! What did you think of the prequel show trailer on HBO MAX?
@@valliyarnl money grabbing. Of course it prob will be high quality money grabbing but it is. That’s for the Max show. Same as Brian Herbert’s books. Plain and simple: he can’t write. Now his “co-writer” can actually write but they don’t have anything of Frank’s vision. But seriously. I read all the books. It’s like you got these philosophical books and he didn’t understand a bit of them… he thought oh yeah… it’s like Star Wars, basically everything is backwards. He turned it to an action series. 😂 fanfic from his father’s work. Just because he is his son, doesn’t make it better. And I’m serious. Told you: I read it. As for SW: I told that to one of my best friends who is not a gen z kid to start a fight over this, but he is a fan of Star Wars. Collector of these stuff and so on. The type who has signed things from Lucas and the others. In Europe, Hungary we are, as I mentioned. Now he said, I’m not really wrong. Still the universe is created so people is enjoying themselves let them. That’s why I’m not joining SW fandoms and trying to discuss Dune with them. It’s like a cult. Like Sarah J Maas or Colleen Hoover fans. Try to discuss anything with them…. Reason is not part of the conversation anymore. I know what I’m talking abt because I like Star Wars and I grew up with that way before the social media or in fact internet at homes. We had it on VHS first and some of the books… i saw these fandoms grow on the internet, played with the first games… And I didn’t even start with the fact that Star Trek is better for adults. 😁You see? I just finished with the last TV show Star Trek - Discovery and saw all the Star Wars too. They don’t even know how to write, while Star Trek has really good characters and base stories. Not always repeating the same. 😂 Hot take. Here you go. And as I know what you think about books now, for tv? You would like more Star Trek. Strange New Worlds and Discovery are for you. Not Star Wars.
@@nazimelmardi ok you’re convincing me to really look into Star Trek because yeah maybe that’s why SW just hasn’t clicked for me? And from what you described it seems much more up my alley. Thanks!
@@valliyarnl if you would? Probably saw the movies? The 3 of Star Trek in cinema? Now those are perfect introductions to the main characters (the 1-2 are enough). As for TV series? The old are good too, but if you don’t want to watch tons of episodes? Strange New Worlds and Discovery w Picard are the 3 that can be more than enough. These are separated from each other, the shows have some common themes (diplomacy before fighting, acceptance before discrimination, etc) and characters tho, like Captain Kirk, that’s why it’s useful to watch the movie -> it’s about Kirk. The show Picard is the 2nd great Captain he has his own show from the past, this show is in his old days. Fun one. And that’s also a great solution. They don’t try to make the old characters young. He is old. He is dealing with it. See my point about better characters, not repeating the same? The reason why Kirk is here, it was a renewal for us. After all it’s really old. They remade the movie, Into Darkness w Benedict Cumberbatch, he is a great villain tbh.
So you're basically in disagreement with Roberta Ferguson (Jessica in the film) who said out loud prior to Dune Part I, that Dune the book was a product of its time. In so far as female "agency" wasn't exactly the main theme developed in the book. Which is true in a way and false as well like you said, the Bene Gesserit wouldn't even exist in this universe. I'm glad to see most of you here seem to be very far from the obnoxious argument about Chani's portrayal at the end of the movie. To make Messiah they need to create what I call a peaceful disagreement between Paul & Chani otherwise no one will ever disagree with Paul as the Emperor. Oups, maybe I gave up the plot for the next one sorry!... ;)
@@valliyarnl Yeah I watched them already.I have my own podcast by the way ( audio only) about science-fiction & fantasy but in French (@cybiopod). Looking forward to seeing the next ones. And thank you for your fantasy books recommandations. I started the Malazan Book series a few months back but focused a bit more on it after I watched you talking about it. 🤗
FYI I only read the first book (a while ago) and watched the movies. With that said, the Bene Gesserit always meant for Paul to be a woman so that she could produce the Kwisatz Haderach with Feyd-Rautha (I'm sure the Bene Gesserit have no opposition towards incest lol) but the only reason this didn't happen was because Leto so desperately wanted a male heir. Producing the Kwisatz Haderach a generation earlier. You also have this, at least in my opinion, somewhat sexual tension between the two of them during their battle (in the movie.) With their extended eye contact as Feyd dies, the mirror into the world that could have been disappears as Paul once again rejects the Bene Gesserit's imposed gender role on him. I don't know if I really like the term sexual tension in this case but the two definitely have their fare share of meaningful eye contact which could be interpreted however you like. In terms of the water of life he is told that he could survive it. Yet he does and survives. Not because he is the Kwisatz Haderach, but because he was almost born a girl, supposed to be born a girl. I guess you could also say Paul is a lot more stereotypically feminine than other female characters, with his soft spoken nature, pretty and delicate appearance, as well as his ability to use the voice. Not really sure if this is what you meant, I just started writing but let me know if you have any other questions. TLDR: Paul has to ride the biggest worm in the land, change his name, drink the blue stuff for girls, in turn giving him awesome girl powers, and practice his voice so he can pass as Lisan al Gaib
Thank you so much for this explanation! While I don’t agree with all your points I can definitely understand where you are coming from better and I do think the idea, like I said in the video, of if the fact that he was supposed to be a girl originally influenced him becoming the Kwisatz Haderach is definitely something to chew on. Oh and how he much more feminine than his other counterparts and how that contributes to his role. I’ll pay more attention on a reread. Thanks for sharing!
The time compression in the film really changes Chani and Paul's relationship. they don't have Leto II, so there isn't that history, so they are far earlier in when Paul proposes his political marrage. Also, the friction between Paul and Chani is base in their philosophical ideas of where the Fremen should be lead to. Chani see Paul as treating the Fremen a tool for his own ends, no different then any other colonising outsider, not as a Fremen seeking what is best for his people. I like that in the film, but still love the book. You can do both.
I don't remember anywhere in the books it saying Jessica altering the sex of the fetus, she just didn't alter the sex when she conceived a child and it developed as a boy, whish is what the Bene Bene Gesserit had ordered. It is implied she may have, "but he so wanted a boy" but it's one of those question best left unanswered.
It’s me! Hi! I’m the problem, it’s me! 👋🏻
Of course I had to talk about Star Wars for an hour, it was right after May 4th! But if anyone is wondering, aside from the beautifully summarized points Wera made, another aspect of my point was also the target audience. Lucas has made it clear that Star Wars was always meant to be primarily for kids, and because of that it is framed by, fora lack of a better term, “simplified” narratives - Hero’s Journey, found family etc. That’s why it was so jarring for many to suddenly shift from the Original Trilogy to the Prequels when they had come out - it attempted to tie in more adult narratives. As someone who grew up on the animated shows, they definitely got better at this over time. But I also think through this lens, Star Wars was able to tell more difficult and heavier stories about the realities of war, and introduce children thought this storytelling medium to the aspects of life they might be experiencing themselves …
Good take ‼️‼️
Also I’m proud of u introducing TS lyrics into ur lexicon 😌
I like both Star Wars OT and Dune, but honestly, right now, Dune supasses it, because 1) current Star Wars sucks and there's never been a time where I've been this uninterested in the franchise, 2) I'm an adult now, and therefore prefer the maturity and complexity of Dune a lot more, but also because its themes are significantly more relatable. It tackles elements of the Human ecology that are never going to go away: politics, economics, religion, etc. Star Wars, the original trilogy (my headcanon doesn't acknowledge the prequels nor the sequels), are a feel-good movies, good versus evil, the hero's journey - absolute classic! They are very different of course, but my current mindset is seeking more mature scifi, because there's only so much you can do with good versus evil types stories.
I like the way the comments were displayed!
Miles Teg is my favorite Dune character.
Ahhh with all the hype I’m so excited to meet him!!
Streggi too?
u know ball
Heretics of Dune and Chapter House Dune need to be taken together since it is the same story arc but they are my favorite books aside from the first one. My favorite Dune character is Murbella and second place is Sheeana, which are both in those books. I hope these books are what The Sisterhood TV series will be about if the rumors are true and we in fact get a TV series.
The trailer for the sisterhood tv show dropped this week! It’s called Dune: The Prophecy. But I think it’s adapting the Brian Herbert works.
I can’t wait to read heretics and chapterhouse especially because I keep hearing fantastic things about the characters!
@@valliyarnl from someone who has read the book Sisterhood of Dune, this series looks like it is based on that book. Ten thousand years before Paul is born, just after the Guild is established(maybe), and the name of the founder of the Sisterhood all point to that book...
I honestly hated Heretics and so couldn't bring myself to read Charterhouse.
Nice editing! The quality of your vids is improving wonderfully.
As for the Dune I have only watched the movies and loved them. Will now read the books and hopefully catch up before your next vid to enter the discussion. Keep up the good work! ❤🔥
Aww thank you it means a lot ☺️
I hope you enjoy the books! As for the video about the last 4 books video that’ll come out either when Dune Prophecy premieres (if it’s popular) but more likely it’ll be when Dune Messiah the movie comes out (for algorithm reasons 🤪) so you have plenty of time! 😄
@@valliyarnl Will definitely make it then 😄
I think the ending of the book works a lot better because Paul and Chani have been together for what, 2 or 3 years? She WANTS to be seen as his wife because she loves him, there's nothing misogynistic about that. Obviously the universe they live in is fairly patriarchial but that doesn't mean that's what the story is trying to say is good.
I didn't hate the movie ending but they've certainly put Chani in an awkward position and I don't see how they'll be able to adapt the rest of the books, I've only read up to Messiah so far but so far as I know their kids are super important.
My guess is it will turn out that Chani was pregnant at the end of part II but her relationship with Paul is obviously quite deeply changed here which will of course change how things turn out with their children, one would imagine.
To me at least I think Chani just felt quite betrayed by Paul being adamant he's not going to rule over the Fremen and then just doing so, I don't think she was all that sad about him marrying Irulan or anything it's just that he went against his promises to her, remains to be seen if that can be patched over. It would make a lot of sense if there's a solid timeskip for Messiah wherein which he proved his loyalty to her, this would also give Alia time to get a good bit older.
Which I'd highly appreciate, one of my biggest concerns for Part II was that they'd do a horrifying CGI Twilight baby, her being active in utero was super cool.
Chani is the worst book to movie change ever. From loving and supportive to dismissive and on a high horse. She acted like she had read Dune: Messiah ffs.
Gee thanks Denis. Can't wait for a proper adaptation in another few decades.
Dune is awesome visually and audibly. But the narrative is SO on the nose. And Paul refuses to go South until he has a vision where Jamis is talking about why a hunter must see? YOU MUST SEE: YOU NEED TO SEE. YADA YADA
lol that is the weakest writing ever.
And Stilgar reminded me of Life of Brian for crying out loud xD
I may be hella late, but the last books written by Brian won't make sense if you have not read the Dune Legends Trilogy (the one happening 10.000 years before dune) and you will hate the ending. So, how was the ending in Brian's books? :)
My enjoyment of the latest adaptation is significantly reduced by reading the books and watching the mini-series (those are very faithful to the books!). I like part 1, but part 2 seems to have changed TOO much of the source material (the whole thing with split ideologies of fremen tribes and Chani being a pouting feminist from 2020s).
Feels like this movie hits you on the head with the message "don't trust charismatic leaders", instead of a subtle message of the book and exploring the tragedy of Paul's path. This made the ending of the movie feel like the worst art-house stuff - unsatisfying, unable to connect or empathize with any of the characters.
I'd love to hear your take on Furiosa (even though it's a film)
Tbh Mad Max and all that has never really been my thing so idk if I’ll watch it :/ I do love Anya Taylor Joy tho…
HIIIIGHLLLY recommend mini-series. The first 3 episodes that cover the first book is a bit rough and some of the B-grade extras acting and the costumes... dear God the costumes almost ruin it entirely. But it's the most faithful to the story. Includes spice orgy, Alia is born, Chani and Paul's first son, Baron Harkonnen talkative and gloating nature.. it has everything. Water of life ceremony is longer and more psychodelic etc....
The last 3 episodes which cover Messiah and Children of Dune are PHENOMENAL... James McAvoy who plays Leto II... the actress who plays Saint Alia of the Knife... it's amazing.
Unpopular opinion but Villeneuve really f*cked up and fumbled this series hard for me. I was so excited for part 2 as I thought it would destroy every single adaptation in the past, including other franchises that were inspired by Dune: Star Wars, Matrix, Avatar etc. but it did the complete opposite for me and made me appreciate them more. Because all those other adaptions or movies influenced by Dune capture the grittiness and weirdness. Villeneuves Dune part 2 was like a parody/cartoon of the book but worse because he altered the ending. And if anyone has read the books they would understand how connected they all are from the very first book to the very end (Chapterhouse), the next 5 books make so many references to the first one it's like the God damn old testament.. To change and alter someone or something beyond recognition alters the events and how the story will play out in the future. I've actually never seen someone screw up so badly, and I'm even more disappointed because I love Villeneuves previous movies including Dune part 1. But this movie felt to me like he just betrayed himself totally, either that or he never liked the original story of Dune to begin and just wanted to change it for his own selfish pleasure... part 3 is gonna suck in my opinion. and I'm willing to put money on it. Thank God we will always have the books, I want to erase part 2 from my mind (except the worm ride scene, Geidi Prime scene, the tent scene when he receives his name, the speech was cool but could've been built up to better to give it more weight........lol)
Wow this is a very unpopular opinion but I do see where you are coming from. I think in one interview someone said that yes this is a Dune adaptation, but it is a Denis’s Dune not Frank’s (for better or worse). I’m sorry you didn’t like part 2 but you’ve definitely convinced me to watch the miniseries because I LOVE Alia (my favorite Dune character and I need to see her in love action!)
i took over a year to read through the first dune book so that i could have read it before the second movie came out,
i’m just so bad at reading that i dont want to read another one if they really are doing a third part movie.
i envy people who are good at reading, but it just takes me so long to get anywhere that i get burned out.
Hey don’t feel pressured!! Dune is a huge and very dense book. Good on you for getting through it! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
@@valliyarnl haha thank you!
my older siblings are all big readers, so i feel like i missed something :p
Do the audiobook and follow along. Helps a lot
If George Lucas kept StarWars original ending of Luke Skywalker putting on Vader's helmet and becoming the new Emporer, then its core message would be far more similar to Dune.
Other than the core message being fundamentally different the basic premise is the same.
A foreign man who lives on a sand planet (who is secretly descended from the emperor's main henchman) decides to rebel against the evil intergalactic Emporer for murdering his family. With the assistance of his sister (who also has special genetically inherited psychic powers) he becomes a hero of the rebellion and they finally manage to overthrow the evil Emporer and restore peace and prosperity to the galaxy (not really).
Love some spicy takes 🌶️ the ✨misogyny✨ coming in with sparkles had me laughing
✨✨✨✨
Well
Dune was written in 1965.
Star wars was finished and made between 1976-1977 so even if there different. Dune came first.
Will we get the metal eyes dude reveal in film 3? That is my question. (Don't spoil who it could be).
I really really hope so 🤞🏻
Ah, surprise misogyny...we meet again. As if a millenia spanning, power wielding, puppet mastering cult-sisterhood of superhero women controlling the universe isn't clearly a sign of the patriarchy. Jk...
Seriously, though; I think the movie could have done a little better expressing Chani's understanding and acceptance of the political situation from the end of book one. The book does this in a way that empowers Chani at least in as much as she's not caught off guard or shocked because she was too innocent or naive to understand the nature of Paul's actions/decisions. In the book Chani helps Paul actually make the decision, if I remember correctly. Maybe it wasn't possible with the film's time constraint or whatever. I don't think it was overtly sexist but I guess maybe inadvertently it could have been(?).
The sci-fi mini-series' are both good. The original Dune adaptation is pretty dated now but isn't too bad. Children of Dune ( which covers Messiah, too) is pretty excellent even still.
I kind of liked they way Chani was portrayed when I first say Dune part 2, but as I was rereading the first book I honestly just got really really annoyed with movie Chani, like I get what they were going for but I think the actual love story of Chani and Paul where by Messiah Chani is questioning some of Paul's decisions and Paul knows some terrible things that will happen to his love and that he cant prevent it gets completely ruined by the sassy attitude as opposed to the laconic fremenisms of book Chani.
for me i kind of found Chani bland in the books and they wanted to show the audience the other perspective on Paul's actions, so I'm not mad at the change personally bc i think it does work for the movie
My hot take on Dune, which became especially clearer to me after having seen Part 2, is that Paul is totally unambiguously the hero and it's extremely reductive to suggest otherwise. The most common analysis you find with respect to Dune is that it's meant as a cautionary tale, a warning against the allure of charismatic leaders. So says Herbert, anyway. But this, from my perspective, only becomes applicable if you read Dune Messiah. Reading Dune in isolation without any of the sequels doesn't really convey this message, outside of a few allusions to Paul's greater destiny and the admittedly horrible consequences of said destiny. On the whole, the first book is very much cast in the mold of the Hero's Journey as outlined by Joseph Campbell. This is admittedly going to be my own interpretation, but I don't really believe Herbert's original intention is what he always claimed it to be. The first book touches on very primal themes that, as moderns, we find threatening and/or dangerous. Paul is a Great Man of history, as Thomas Carlyle would have said. He shakes the soil (or in this case, the sand lol) upon which he walks. The collective destiny of his people falls on him, and he rises to the occasion just as his father told him. Great Men do not accomplish wonders by being "nice." The moral questions here are not as simple as "good" or "bad." In purely practical terms, Paul is simply the best option, especially when you consider who his enemies are. I think Herbert realized this after writing the first book and felt like he had to correct the record, so to speak; basically, make sure everybody explicitly knows that "actually Paul is the villain and you're not supposed to like him." Again, my personal read on it but take it for whatever it's worth.
And more to the point, are we really going to pretend the Harkonnens are unfairly maligned? The Baron had Paul's father killed. I think most people understand, on a primal level, that this was a great injustice and had to be repaid in full in order to set the cosmos right. For all the problems I have with Part 2 as a film, particularly the script, Paul's ascension at the end of the film totally works. That final moment where he emerges victorious, pulls the knife from his side, limps over to the Emperor and demands he kiss the ring was excellent. He should be kissing the ring after what HE HIMSELF conspired to do! And this is despite the film using Chani (the major problem) to tell me "well actually Paul is going down a dangerous path and it's not right for him to do what he's doing, etc." So when you look at it from the macro level, what Dennis did with the film was adapt the rest of the first book (with some things left out, obviously) while peppering in the themes of the second book. In my view, this does nothing but confuse the audience who have been following Paul since the first film, having seen his trials and tribulations and will almost certainly find him the most relatable character. He's the centerpiece of the story, but Chani was weaponized against him for the sole purpose of instructing the audience on what they're supposed to take away from the film thematically. She's the only character being positioned as "rational", almost too a meta level. It's like she's aware of the meta commentary surrounding Dune and its themes and she's expositing it for the audience who may not have read the books. We just can't allow those pesky viewers to form their own conclusions, I guess. Hence the portrayal of Stilgar as a dumb religious zealot who doubles as comic relief. A lot of this stuff was just not subtle at all.
My bad for the book report/rant ;) but these thoughts have been with me since seeing the film (which I still like on the whole, but have major issues with).
I view Paul as far more of a *victim* than a villain, his only real options were to enact the plot of the movie or die and let the Harkonnen's win and keep everything functioning the same as it has for thousands of years to the detriment of the Fremen and everyone else abused by the Empire.
Like what he does and what ends up happening later is obviously freakishly terrible but I feel like people take away the agency of the Fremen a lot here. In both the movie and the book it's made abundantly clear that once Paul has been seen as the Lisan al Gaib...that's it, the Jihad happens no matter what, even if he dies. The fierce zealotry of the Fremen people means he couldn't have done anything to stop them and he only knew this would happen once he took that poison, by then it was too late for him to change anything.
He is a consequence and a victim of the Bene Gesserit meddling and the eons long feud between the two houses, he had every right to want revenge for his fathers murder and realistically what other option did he have when the Emperor was in on it? He could literally only die or go along destinies path.
The Jihad is really just the wider universes comeuppance for their enslavement of the Fremen, it frankly barely has anything to do with Paul, all it was ever going to take was one person to unite them. I don't really see Paul as a hero or a villain he's just massively unfortunate to have been born in this universe.
(FYI I've only read the first two books so not sure if anything later goes against what I've said here but from these two alone this is how I feel about Paul so far)
Definitely not a 'hot' take anymore, but... 1. Denis, and a lot of readers seem to miss the point of shield-fighting in the book. The shields are really there as an allegory/explanation of the political combat of the houses and emperor. The political machinations of the book never really felt present in the parts 1 & 2. 2. Omitting that Fremen were bribing the Spacing Guild, so that the southern half of Arrakis can't be observed. The book Fremen have a lot more 'soft' power than most realize and this plays into their goal of terraforming the planet. But, the movie really wants to insist on a modern colonialist interpretation. Finally, Denis' version of the Paul-Feyd duel, while visually stunning, just didn't have the tension of Lynch's film. Compare the swordfights of 'The Duelists' to most modern sword choreography if you'd like a reference.
I’m sorry but I don’t understand the “Irulan spoils everything in the intros” take. I think it’s chapter two, where they tell the reader exactly what is about to happen?? And it does!
That’s 👏🏻 the 👏🏻 point 👏🏻
I can see comparing Dune with The lord of the Rings movies being that they are both done in an epic scale. I loved both adaptations.. I also agree with your take on Paul and Chani’s relationship where he is only marrying Irulan for political reasons and Chani will always be known as the woman behind the scenes.. yes, read the book! And I could never relate Dune with Star Wars! Star Wars Vs. Star Trek? Much better argument.. lol
Always enjoy watching your content Wera, you explain everything so well…
And… Edric! Hahaha never thought about the his mouth looked!! 😂😂
Haven’t watched Star Trek yet! Maybe I should?
And yeah… Edric… I just can’t describe it a different way.
Well now I see Edric in a whole different way! And yes you should watch Star Trek, I was never a huge fan of the original series but did enjoy the movies.. Next Generation series I did like!
First time being first🎉😂
Congratulations haha!!
Here’s a medal for u: 🥇 😄
Hope you liked the video!
The 1984 version of Dune was okay for its time, although it is nowhere near as good as the book. The new version of Dune was brilliant in my opinion, and the series on the Sci-fi Channel were great as well. I've only made it as far as Dune Messiah as far as the books go, and I've moved on to Stephen King for a while, but hopefully I will finish the Dune series eventually.
Funny coincidence because I’m shortly moving onto Stephen King as well… ;)
@@valliyarnl I hope you enjoy reading his books as much as I do. Have a lovely weekend.
Kevin J. Anderson nie jest zbyt dobrym pisarzem, nie polecam jego książek.
Mnie adaptacja Diuny rozczarowała.
Przede wszystkim Denis Villeneuve spłycił przekaz, do tego przekaz był nadmiernie łopatologiczny - widz był potraktowany jak idiota.
Do tego zmiany, żeby to jeszcze były zmiany na lepsze... ale nie były to zmiany na lepsze.
Arrival i Blade Runner 2049 wyszły mu bardzo dobrze, więc się spodziewałem więcej.
Jedyny plus to, że Diuna Villeneuvea jest wizualnie bardzo dobra.
Miles Teg to nieprawdopodobnie dobrze napisana postać dowódczy wojskowego - co jest rzadkością - dlatego jest moją ulubioną postacią w tym cyklu.
Hello Wera, I visited your TH-cam channel.
Your content is very nice but your video title description and tags are not SEO properly so you are not able to reach more audience, if you want your video to reach more audience then you need to SEO properly, this will increase your channel greatly.
You just had a grass-fed ribeye steak then the next day you eat spam. That's what it's like reading Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson's prequel books after reading Frank Herbert's original six books. They completely differ in writing skill, depth, and stratum. There's nothing wrong with different writing style. However, if you're going to take on the challenge of continuing Herbert's Dune, you need a writer with the skills and experience comparable to Frank not a couple of trashy, juvenile pulp fiction writers with virtually no experience as in the case of Brian Herbert. Anderson has some....I guess.... kind of. If you consider SW books as worthwhile reading.
I'm with the majority about Messiah. It is the weakest of the six but I'm kind of strange in that my fave is God Emperor followed by Heretics, Dune, Chapterhouse, and Children. I love that the Bene Gesserit are front & centre in Heretics and Chapterhouse and that Atreides scions are everywhere, common folk, yet some hold positions of power.
Ooooof that’s a BRUTAL take about the BH books, especially as a steak fan and spam hater.
No don't do Brian Herbert just do the 6 books by Frank Herbert. Read dune to Chapterhouse dune then stop.
Star Wars topic is boring. The very thing that they talk about “lore”… Lucas is a genius. 😂 fanfic writers and he just said: “yep! That’s official lore!” Why? Because that way he gained tons of money. That’s why. 😂 There is that. Nothing else exists just 3 movies and later some games… and then came episode 1. All the rest is fanfic. That’s all. But it’s fun to create ideas. I did that too and I read a lot of these back then when I was little. Helped to keep reading.
Children of Dune is a pretty decent mini series. The Dune mini series is not. And not just the money is the problem. It suffers because it lacks of any imagination. Saw amateur videos better because they were passionate to do it.
This lmbtq allegory is ridiculous. It’s just genetics. Frank just gives a strong argument on the power of humanity over technology.nowadays of course everything is that.
Misogyny… 😂😂 as you said.
Now THAT is a hot take on Star Wars. Again, I’m not too well versed on it, but from what I know that is SIZZLING 🔥.
Tbh I didn’t even know there’s a dune miniseries. I find something new out every day! What did you think of the prequel show trailer on HBO MAX?
@@valliyarnl money grabbing. Of course it prob will be high quality money grabbing but it is. That’s for the Max show. Same as Brian Herbert’s books. Plain and simple: he can’t write. Now his “co-writer” can actually write but they don’t have anything of Frank’s vision. But seriously. I read all the books. It’s like you got these philosophical books and he didn’t understand a bit of them… he thought oh yeah… it’s like Star Wars, basically everything is backwards. He turned it to an action series. 😂 fanfic from his father’s work. Just because he is his son, doesn’t make it better. And I’m serious. Told you: I read it.
As for SW: I told that to one of my best friends who is not a gen z kid to start a fight over this, but he is a fan of Star Wars. Collector of these stuff and so on. The type who has signed things from Lucas and the others. In Europe, Hungary we are, as I mentioned. Now he said, I’m not really wrong. Still the universe is created so people is enjoying themselves let them. That’s why I’m not joining SW fandoms and trying to discuss Dune with them. It’s like a cult. Like Sarah J Maas or Colleen Hoover fans. Try to discuss anything with them…. Reason is not part of the conversation anymore. I know what I’m talking abt because I like Star Wars and I grew up with that way before the social media or in fact internet at homes. We had it on VHS first and some of the books… i saw these fandoms grow on the internet, played with the first games…
And I didn’t even start with the fact that Star Trek is better for adults. 😁You see? I just finished with the last TV show Star Trek - Discovery and saw all the Star Wars too. They don’t even know how to write, while Star Trek has really good characters and base stories. Not always repeating the same. 😂 Hot take. Here you go.
And as I know what you think about books now, for tv? You would like more Star Trek. Strange New Worlds and Discovery are for you. Not Star Wars.
@@nazimelmardi ok you’re convincing me to really look into Star Trek because yeah maybe that’s why SW just hasn’t clicked for me? And from what you described it seems much more up my alley. Thanks!
@@valliyarnl if you would? Probably saw the movies? The 3 of Star Trek in cinema? Now those are perfect introductions to the main characters (the 1-2 are enough).
As for TV series? The old are good too, but if you don’t want to watch tons of episodes? Strange New Worlds and Discovery w Picard are the 3 that can be more than enough. These are separated from each other, the shows have some common themes (diplomacy before fighting, acceptance before discrimination, etc) and characters tho, like Captain Kirk, that’s why it’s useful to watch the movie -> it’s about Kirk. The show Picard is the 2nd great Captain he has his own show from the past, this show is in his old days. Fun one. And that’s also a great solution. They don’t try to make the old characters young. He is old. He is dealing with it. See my point about better characters, not repeating the same? The reason why Kirk is here, it was a renewal for us. After all it’s really old. They remade the movie, Into Darkness w Benedict Cumberbatch, he is a great villain tbh.
Book Swers is arguably way better than the slop Lucas wrote. The Vader books and the Dark Empire series is really good.
Hey Wera
hi Salty
So you're basically in disagreement with Roberta Ferguson (Jessica in the film) who said out loud prior to Dune Part I, that Dune the book was a product of its time. In so far as female "agency" wasn't exactly the main theme developed in the book. Which is true in a way and false as well like you said, the Bene Gesserit wouldn't even exist in this universe. I'm glad to see most of you here seem to be very far from the obnoxious argument about Chani's portrayal at the end of the movie. To make Messiah they need to create what I call a peaceful disagreement between Paul & Chani otherwise no one will ever disagree with Paul as the Emperor. Oups, maybe I gave up the plot for the next one sorry!... ;)
no worries i read the first four!
(i have a video on that too if you want to know what i thought of each individual one)
@@valliyarnl Yeah I watched them already.I have my own podcast by the way ( audio only) about science-fiction & fantasy but in French (@cybiopod). Looking forward to seeing the next ones. And thank you for your fantasy books recommandations. I started the Malazan Book series a few months back but focused a bit more on it after I watched you talking about it. 🤗
FYI I only read the first book (a while ago) and watched the movies. With that said, the Bene Gesserit always meant for Paul to be a woman so that she could produce the Kwisatz Haderach with Feyd-Rautha (I'm sure the Bene Gesserit have no opposition towards incest lol) but the only reason this didn't happen was because Leto so desperately wanted a male heir. Producing the Kwisatz Haderach a generation earlier. You also have this, at least in my opinion, somewhat sexual tension between the two of them during their battle (in the movie.) With their extended eye contact as Feyd dies, the mirror into the world that could have been disappears as Paul once again rejects the Bene Gesserit's imposed gender role on him. I don't know if I really like the term sexual tension in this case but the two definitely have their fare share of meaningful eye contact which could be interpreted however you like.
In terms of the water of life he is told that he could survive it. Yet he does and survives. Not because he is the Kwisatz Haderach, but because he was almost born a girl, supposed to be born a girl. I guess you could also say Paul is a lot more stereotypically feminine than other female characters, with his soft spoken nature, pretty and delicate appearance, as well as his ability to use the voice.
Not really sure if this is what you meant, I just started writing but let me know if you have any other questions.
TLDR: Paul has to ride the biggest worm in the land, change his name, drink the blue stuff for girls, in turn giving him awesome girl powers, and practice his voice so he can pass as Lisan al Gaib
Thank you so much for this explanation! While I don’t agree with all your points I can definitely understand where you are coming from better and I do think the idea, like I said in the video, of if the fact that he was supposed to be a girl originally influenced him becoming the Kwisatz Haderach is definitely something to chew on. Oh and how he much more feminine than his other counterparts and how that contributes to his role. I’ll pay more attention on a reread. Thanks for sharing!
Paul and Feyd were meant to be lovers. Dune was a boylove novel all along. Yaoi before it's time.