Lily: *says "abolutes do not work in storytelling" over Star Wars footage at **14:48* Lily: *doesn't use "only a sith deals in absolutes" clip* Me: It's treason then.
No no, I'm not a youtuber or i'd make a video just to reply to this ridiculous statement in the video. It's relative. If it's a minor spoiler it doesn't matter, like "X likes beer because Y died at Z, and beer reminds X of his times with Y. Y is a relatively important character for the first arcs of story". You can't flatten the enormous mountain of different reactions people have, weeping statements like that are moot. What a good story is, absolutely cannot be measured by spoiling and seeing how many people still read/watch it. We don't like things because of reasons we just LIKE things, and then find reasons to do so. Your watching experience comes down to your personal sensitivity, and I like many others, find that people who spoil, spoil the stuff I would find important if it wasn't spoiled. To me that's kind of the point. Figuring it out. I can't possibly imagine a detective novel to be good if it spoils the whole reason to read it, who why and how. Older detective mystery novels especially were made with the intent of setting up a fair chance for the reader to figure out the culprit. "Lady Cecile Ashford is getting blackmailed by her step brother through a middle man, hired by the step mother in an attempt to make lady Cecile's dad think she's overly paranoid about step mom's plan to take all the family's money". Oh thanks, you spared me 198 pages. In the first place spoiler culture exists because some people want you shut the fuck up and not ruin their own experience, because clearly you don't feel the same. One dude I know went to another state on fucking purpose just to watch avengers endgame and spoil who dies and the key events. Whether it ruins the movie or not is relative, absolute statements on relative products like entertainment miss the point entirely.
@@BygoneT I can very much see your point on absolute statements. But I believe our seperate takes have to do with two things: 1. I'm talking about the author doing it, who will know the difference in what is integral to making it worth listening to their story, not some self important ass willing to travel to undermine somebody else's experience. 2. Some people enjoy stories more if they have more information going in, and sometimes that can make for even more surprises as their expectations are found to still be different than the canon. Your short example actually makes me interested in how those characters got there. Why was Lady Ashford suspicious something was off at all, and how does the interplay between her and her step family imply that to be the final reveal? Those are fascinating questions for me. There is a world of difference in spoiler culture and a creator choosing to have some facets of their work known to the audience. Esspecially in the case of long running projects leaks about big moments can add mountains to fandom hype, but I'll give that in one off adventures they can be damaging. I do admit I have trouble recalling one off media. Things which are meant to be consumed and not returned to just don't usually have much staying power for me, which is why I deeply prefer series adventures where we see the same characters for a very long time. I would like to give you examples of twists that have been neigh universally panned as bad that if leaked would have actually made me more hyped/interested and I can promise would have created some great fanworks, but you're very obviously adverse to the concept of that, which I'll respect. I can accept your take that it is highly relative but again I'm not talking about other consumers of the media spoiling something, I'm talking about a creator testing how well their story holds up when things are known. This is a test of their skill and the strength of their narrative for repeat enjoyment, something done from a very different perspective and with a vastly different purpose than spoiler culture in its current manifestation. Is there anything in spoiler culture worth salvaging? Maybe, but it's become more poisonous than it was not so long ago. It's no long about trying to figure out how the journey leads to the leak, it's about undermining somebody else's hype and that's not good for anybody, but can it return to something healthier? Idk, and idk if it would ever be seen like it was before even if it tried.
@@socksygen I don't know anything about Sylvanas other than what Lily has said about her nor will I likely ever care to know more but just knowing how passionate Lily is about it makes me want to listen to her talk about it
I think that depends on what the spoiler is (though I agree with the assessment that a spoiler won't ruin a good story). Like with Infinity War, I was told who dies and how some of them died, so I felt nothing when it happened. But Infinity War was still enjoyable bc it was a well written story.
A while ago I watched the Dead Meat videos for Get Out and The Invisible Man(2019), which are basically summary videos for those movies, and if anything watching them has only made me more interested in watching the actual movies because the stories were so good. And I don't even watch horror movies.
@@desidominguez2876 I love watching the dead meat body count videos. I hate horror movies because most rely on what I consider one of the laziest ways of scaring an audience, the Jump Scare.
I really don’t like when writers just inject story's with mystery for no reason. I can enjoy just running around with cool characters, I don’t need some random magic lady in the background with secret messages to enjoy a story.
Same. Hate the prophecy trope the most though. Like warriors cats for example. I’m writing a werewolf story and keeping those type of mystery out of it.
If it's important to the character, it would be important to the story. Star Wars The force Unleashed 2 has the question "Am I a clone?" Going on for starkiller.
The thing that made the star wars rey twist even worse was when they established her parents were nobodies and which sends a powerful message that anybody can use the force but then craps on that idea when it turns out she's a Palpatine
Tbh even listening to fan theories is exhausting, I can't believe some people are out here basing all of their writing decisions on them. Great job Lily!
It irritates me a bit because se theorists come up with intresting ideas and i wonder why they're wasting time on a show when they could write their own story
@@rainbowpuppet2477 hey don't diss them because they want predict what's gonna happened in the story im a theorist so and I like making theories because it's fun.
This kind of reminds me of my feelings on miraculous ladybug. The will they won’t they love square and dragging things out is the reason that I’ve stopped watching the show and just read fan comics and fanfics that are just more fun (like zoe-oneesama’s scarlet lady au comic) it’s a shame because the animators put in so much effort to make this show look nice which is probably why I watched it as long as I did hoping it would get better.
I remember when I got into the show I was annoyed about the oversaturation of comics that are only about the leads getting together (which is great but you want some variety every now and then), but then the show kept dragging out its own will-they-won't-they subplot for no reason, and now I'm at least thankful that most writers would rather get the confessions over with within a few panels of a comic, or within the first half of a fic or less, without the manufactured bull crud getting in the way (with exceptions but there's always exceptions). I read Scarlet Lady a few months ago. Not my personal cup of tea, but it's still a pretty fun comedic romp. I'd recommend it.
True, I got 2 seasons in and I was fine with them playing the same formula hero vs villain wise because you can always at least make that fun but when they abandoned that for love rivals and shocking twists I left. I noticed while I tried to watch season 3 that if I wasn't actively watching LB and CN take down a villain I was no longer having fun with the show.
I'm only on the first season, and I was kinda hoping that Marinette would confess her feeling to adrian just to have him not have the same feelings (I'd rather just be friends) and then CN do the same to ML and have her do the same thing. Also hawk moth being Adrian's father is fairly obvious (especially in the episode were the bad guy of the week targets Gabriel)
Can't wait until Twitter twists this into "Lilian hates mysteries because she's frustrated when she doesn't get the answers, because she's dumb and doesn't understand that's the point of mysteries".
I understand the frustration. I. hate that kind of crowd that just picks up keywords in Lily’s arguments. Then just make it seem like she’s a crazy person. Those people on Twitter aren’t worth debating when they don’t really care about “good,” stories.
Wow I've never thought of spoiler culture that way. Spoiler culture literally just gasses up the suspense of something happened instead of digesting what's actually happening. Great video!
The whole mystery thing also applies to many shows that feel the need to include cliffhangers at the end of their episodes/seasons, for a lot of the reasons you pointed out like hype culture, teasing the audience, and predatory marketing. Hilda season 2 comes to mind, when I saw the cliffhanger of that season, I was genuinely pissed that they would pull that.
This is why I love your channel. You tell it how it is, you don't sugarcoat, you don't put up with anyone's shit and anyone who tries to go after your work, they have to cut out vital info, twist your words or lie.
That closing line was somehow very validating. I consume spoilers all the time as my way of gauging if a story I'm on the fence about is worth my time, and the constant feedback from friends or family wondering why I'm looking for spoilers is exhausting.
My girl roasting fan theory makers, Steven universe, World of Warcraft and Asmongold in the same video. I enjoy videos like these so much and this has to be one of the reasons, also the latent gay energy and lessons in story telling
Lily: Calls Sugar a millionaire Me: "I'm sorry, what?" Also Me: Does some googling Me, after googling: "HER NET WORTH IS 4 MILLION? WHY DO WE DEFEND SUCH A PRIVILEGED WOMAN SO MUCH?"
@@LilianOrchard You have to remember Lily not everyone knows about a show's production (including me sadly) so stuff like that doesn't come into people's mind until the last minute
Mysteries can be fun but unless we're talking a detective/crime genre story they really should not be the focus or be allowed to go rampant. I'm far more invested in the characters and their personal stories rather than whatever vague lore-based theory I'm meant to concoct from a single frame of an episode. If someone enjoys that extreme level of analysis sure go for it do what makes you happy. But it ain't for me as most stories that rely too heavily on mystery boxes come off as too timid to make any decisive narrative choices and so just wrap their tale in enough ambiguity it almost asks the audience to write the story..
Sherlock vs Elementary one is a gritty crime show were Holmes makes wild conclusions that you dont entirely understand the other is a relatively fun show that guides you to solving it with holmes
@@Reverend_Salem I can oddly see the merits and allure of both. Sherlock for those who are in it for the ride and Elementary for those who want to engage with the mysteries.
At around 16:17, there’s an ad break that interrupts you during your final line and it saps some of the impact. Thought you ought to know in case you wanted to scooch it to a few seconds earlier or later!
Though I personally prefer going into a story blind, you know it's great when you enjoy it just as much the second time you play through it, or if you still enjoyed it after being spoiled. I first played Mother 3 and Undertale while knowing the entirety of both stories. Knowing all the twists may have made the reveals less impactful, but it also let me see all the foreshadowing that came before and enjoy the rest of the experience in a more relaxed way. Also, connecting Gravity Falls with your other point about The Force Awakens shows another way that the show did its mystery element well. Though the question of The Author's identity looms over the entire show, it only directly addresses the question in 4 separate episodes before revealing the truth. The show doesn't jam the question down your throat, allowing audience members who don't really care to focus on the other things that make the show great, like the characters and the writing.
“If your story is good, it being spoiled will not deter people from seeing it.” If only someone had told the Russo brothers this while they were writing Avengers: Endgame. It was decent, but I only watched it to officially put the MCU behind me. They’ve announced all these future projects and storylines, and I just don’t care anymore. Everyone’s getting hyped and making all these theories about what’s gonna happen next, and I can’t get excited about any of it because we’ve been doing the same thing for the past ten years.
I couldn’t stand the mystery mongering in Steven Universe. Especially when the show ended no one gave a shit. Even the Roundtable stop making their crazy theories just to do the same thing to Owl House.
When the fix is taken away, people just go find another fix. The Owl House is notable in how all the fan theories are so strange and baseless specifically because there is no mystery-mongering in the show whatsoever.
watching this is 2022 and the whole "spoil your story" part immediately made me think of spider man no way home, because that movie was aggressively spoilt in almost every part, it was part of the marketing, but it was still one of the highest grossing opening weekends of all time- because everyone WANTED and was excited to see the characters arcs conclude, and their favorite spider men of old come back.
I've never really understood the whole hoo-haa about spoilers, but you cracked that perfectly here. Before I always thought "spoiler" meant what I had come to assume it to mean based on how I absorb media: To receive someone else's experience about a story before my own. In other words, to receive a prejudice or a preconceived perception of it from someone else. Sometimes I see a video on a game that interests me, and I rush to close it before I see "spoilers" so that I can go and experience it myself first and form my own thoughts and feelings about it. Man was I naive to think that's what people meant by being so passionate about spoilers.
your point about the theorising being optional in Gravity Falls and that you can still enjoy the show regardless really resonates with me. I adore Doctor Who, and that show post-2005 has been mostly episodic stories with overarcing plots each series. you can enjoy the episodes on their own, and if you want to try to figure out what the finale's going to be, you can do that too.
I'm surprised you didn't mention shows like Clone Wars or Tron Uprising for how ineffective spoilers can be. Most fans of these shows knew that no matter how much the protagonists fought, all of their efforts would be in vain because the movies that came before showed us that the oppressive regime would win the fight.
Well also we knew and were gaurenteed the result far before the shows launched so we got used to it,in fact the spoiler probably had some including me enjoy the show more since it allowed you to see what the past became from a third person perspective compared to just making it about vader(the prequels) and they acknowledge it while the prequels acted like “GASP what will happen when palpating is talking to a anakin more!?”
Man, i wholeheartedly agree with what you said about spoilers. I tried to spoil endgame for myself because i don't care and wanted to know who died. People give me spoilers and i don't care at all. Because even if i know how it ends or that so and so died, i still wanna watch the journey to get to that point
I don't mind spoilers most of the time but I would never spoil a story to someone without their consent. Though spoilers don't ruin good stories they prevent us from experiencing the surprise. And since you can't get surprised twice, something is lost forever. The spoiled story and the unspoiled story are like two meals both good but different. Spoiling the story is like serving me the same meal instead of the both of them. Getting told an unspoiled story is a unique experience that will never be reproduced in our lifetime and it is decent to let people have it. It doesn't contradict the fact that weaponizing mystery addiction to keep the audience enthralled without delivering anything worthy is despicable.
I love Gravity Falls quite dearly, and recently I had an internet friend who was going through and watching it. Obviously since it's a mystery show, I think that it's more fun to go into it more or less blind and to play along with the show and to try and solve the mystery. I didn't want to spoil the story! ... But then again, Fiddleford and Stanford (both of whom are pretty spoilery characters/have a very spoilery background) are pretty much my two favorite characters in the show (mostly because Journal 3 is a fun read) and every once in a while, I'll just go on Tumblr and reblog everything about the two of them that I can get my hands on... Needless to say, I ended up spoiling the show quite a bit for him. However, I was very glad to hear that instead of ruining the story, that instead it enhanced the experience for him! I think that proves Lily here to be correct. Because I will say that if someone wanted me to spoil the entire story of Gravity Falls, I would oblige them, and I still think that it would be a show worth watching. Because sure, the mystery is a fun aspect, but it certainly isn't everything good about the show. Personally I've gotten to the point in my life where I can't be fucked to care about spoilers anymore. And I rather despise spoiler culture as well. If someone wants to talk media to me, I will gladly hear spoilers. Spoil me. I really can't be bothered to care. And because of this, I tend to hand out spoilers rather frequently. Because I just want to share my enthusiasm for things with my friends, you know? ... And then I have this one friend who can't stand being given even the slightest hint of a spoiler... And it drives me nuts. Like... She's watching Phineas and Ferb right now, and I don't know what to share or say, because it's not like that's a serialized show at all, but I want to express my excitement! Just... GRAH! I JUST WANT TO TALK ABOUT HOW PERRY IS THE SWEETEST BEAN IN THE SHOW AND HAVE EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT MY CLAIM! Also I have never really played WOW before, but I just know that you and my bestie are both raging lesbians for Sylvanas, so I can't help but to love her already.
You are like my go to for writing advice. I'm working on a few screenplays and it's extremely helpful to have analysis videos like these. You've helped me to see more and more as to why character is key.
Honestly, mysteries need to die down a little because they take away focus from characters, which is to me usually the best part of a story. A mystery like Rey's parents doesn't do this despite being literally about the character, because it doesn't really do anything to alter the way we view her personality, and it doesn't even really change the themes very well (the second best part of the story, and helps define the lens we're meant to look at the characters). If you *do* want a character-driven mystery, you need to have the characters actively seek the answers, a clear motive for the character being so invested, and an actual huge character-defining moment when it gets solved or abandoned.
If I ever made a cartoon, I would have messages written in code in the background of each episode. But they wouldn't be important to the story at all, it would be dumb stuff like dad jokes and Rickrolls and one that says "If you can read this you're a nerd". It would piss off theorists to no end because they would have spent hours hyper focusing on background details only to find the animated equivalent of an April fools joke
@@baydiac its categorized as a principle or rule when being study same way something like function is listed as a principle. And though both of these call under the definition of troupe because they are repeated by that definition all things are troupes such as having a character talk on a camera. So while yes it can be stated as a troupe for the sake of ease people call it a rule. And while I might be wrong on this point I think troupes are secondary things like you use a rule and it can create a troupe but I am not sure on that point.
@@baydiac how rules can be broken you don't fire the gun. Troupes can't be you can't because it just not using the troupe then. Like bury your gays you can change up how it happens but don't doing it just means you didn't do the troupe. Not firing the gun mean you had to set up the gun then use then knife you have to do the action purposely to break the rule. Verus to not do a troupe you just don't do a troupe
@@immortallord-ot5sn breaking a trope is called subversion. Break a rule / Subvert a trope. potato / *potato* setting up a gun and using a knife is a trope subversion.
I think at some point I realized how pointless keeping readers guessing was since ultimately the stories I wanted to write revolved around the characters or personal arcs my main characters had. The closest to mysteries I have written either reveal themselves early or the reader comes to the intended conclusion first and the rest is just waiting for the character to reach this revelation on their own. It's been very relieving honestly
It's true, after SU was done I stopped caring. I liked the songs but story-wise I never looked back. I didn't even watch SUF because I was tired of watching it. And from what I heard I didn't miss anything. As for Rey, I agree that her parents didn't matter was a better choice than a famous person. Her accepting a horrible truth felt powerful, but of course, it was reconned in the Rise of Skywalker.
Yeah, SUF somehow managed to be an even worse show than its predecessor. I was actually wheezing during certain episodes over how just absolutely bonkers the writing was sometimes.
In a class i took in college we actually had a unit on how anticipation is more satisfying to the human psyche in storytelling. There have been studies done in which one group of people has a movie spoiled before watching it and the other doesn't. The group that had it spoiled indicate they enjoyed the movie more than those who hadn't been spoiled. This was even true for mysteries. Really interesting stuff.
Spoiler Culture is this obsession with spoilers and keeping story details secret, which has the knock on effect of both A) rendering reviews almost impossible to do their job, and B) treating stories as utterly and completely disposable.
@@LilianOrchard yeah spoiler culture is a pain. I mean I knew of the outcome of avengers endgame , yet still enjoyed the movie . The spoiler doesn't ruin the story for me , it's makes me wonder how we got there or drives me away from a obvious bad work . So good job Lily .
You briefly mentioned Gravity Falls, and it brought something up in my head as I recently started re-watching it. I didn't fall in love with the show again because of the mysteries, I've already seen the series at least once. No, I fell in love with the nuanced, well written characters and their interactions, especially Ford, who is a walking talking spoiler. And my favorite episode is The Last Mabelcorn. Not because of anything world building or lore related, but rather because of a scene near the end of the episode where Dipper thinks Ford has been possessed by Bill, and the man absolutely not helping his case by saying 'you shouldn't have done that' and approaching him menacingly. I love that episode because of a misunderstanding and character interaction, not because of anything word build-y.
I can agree with you about mysteries being dragged out and twist reveals. Spiderman did this with the Hobgoblin mystery and that was not well-received.
Oh fucking exactly! I'm a person who genuinely likes mysteries, but holy shit, not every story has to have some shocking twist that cannot be spoiled! Reminds me of how the Russo brothers were so adamant on any details about Endgame not getting out, then every single "shocking twist" in that movie was either the logical conclusion for the character arcs or reversed characters' development. We've had Sherlock Holmes and Nancy Drew for ages now, more than long enough that the twists in every story are well known, but they're still beloved for their good writing. Funny how that happens!
Star Wars is a great example of the mystery crap making a story unenjoyable. The OT was a simple story: space western. And it’s enjoyable! But then in the new trilogy the story is so convoluted and unnecessarily mysterious that it’s just a chore to watch.
I like having a few minor mysteries in a story, it adds extra content for those who read/watch it again and if done good can recontextualize other plot points. My favorite type of mystery is things never really brought to your attention that suddenly jumps into the spotlight.
I'm gonna be real about the spoiler point. Because I accidentally came across spoilers for the Warriors series by Erin Hunter, and now I want to reread the books even more. Like I'm desperate to get my hands on them.
Stuff like this is why when a video game I'm interested in is coming out, I watch the official release trailer, and avoid the tag on Twitter, Tumblr, and TH-cam videos like the plague until after I have it and play it.
@@erikthomsen4768 I couldn't agree more, I honestly love seeing her videos and wondering what is an issue that hasn't been mentioned in awhile in common shows.
Gotta say I agree with the whole spoiler culture being crap thing. I actually actively tell people who recommend shows and movies to me to give me spoilers because I want to know if I will enjoy the pay off as well as the build up, it's also why I always tell people that if they ask me about a show I've seen and they haven't, that I will ALWAYS give spoilers because in my eyes you can enjoy a show even if you know certain surprises or twists before they are suppose to be revealed. You don't need the whole mystery if the pay off is good without it. It honestly shocks me how annoyed people get when a spoiler 'ruins' a surprise or how touchy people can be about telling you spoilers. Newsflash if the spoiler ruins the pay off then the pay off wasn't good in the first place, like you said.
"I've invested this much energy and I need closure." Hearing this after the end of RWBY volume 8 hurts... I really am just watching now to see where it goes, I've lost all investment.
@@raylenn4444 I mean it's not the show that's hurting me anymore, just the realization that it went to shit. At this point I'm just gonna keep watching to see how shit it gets and laugh my ass off at Kerry screwing everything up
I think the only recent twist I like was the not really known anime, Vanguard: Shinemon. Shinemons apprentice, Tatsuya coming out as the villain was very surprising as the hints of him at the craters funeral ceremony which the show puts you in the idea in that's why he works at the lab and not the antagonist and Esuka mentioning the lab Tatsuya is working at has no known funder (it was Tatsuya) which was a throwaway line to hype up the labs danger. You don't see Tatsuya chiming in to fight Shinemon in the climax coming and its really surprising and rewatching it, I got to appreciate the elements of the twist as it doesn't come from nowhere but from 2 minor scenes and dialogue that made you think of something else
10:50 yeah that's why fanfiction has become so prevalent if you ask me - lots of people are experiencing this sort of exhaustion with tedium, and wind up making the content they want to see bc it's becoming more and more common to be dissapointed by Canon so people are kind of coming to expect it... Which is more than a little sad... But at least there IS better content out there now, and people can commiserate about Canon dragging it's feet or messing with fans heads
Personally never understood people who got super heated over spoilers. Like, I kinda get not wanting to ruin a surprise but would you seriously not care about the story anymore if you knew the twist? Sometimes I don't think it's the story as much as it is just people being addicted to twists and shocking turns.
I always appreciate your insight on storytelling. Your absolutely right it spoiler culture shouldn’t ruin your story if anything it should make me want to see it even more.
AS IF PEOPLE ACTUALLY THOUGHT THAT MASKED CHARACTER WAS AMITY 😂😂 ya know for people who focus too much on minor details I loved how they missed that massive one that’s fucking funny
I actually really love stories that follow this sort of... idea? Guideline? Eh who cares I’ll just say it: “It isn’t the not knowing, it’s the not knowing how” I love when writers take an interesting idea and play with like Play-Doh, you sort of know what to expect and it’s interesting when they change something to fit their story.
I might not agree with you here Lily, but damn if I don't love just listening to you talk! It's good to have a perspective outside of my own at times shown to me.
I'm glad someone else understands that spoilers don't ruin a story. In fact, I prefer to be spoiled because whenever I'm not the movie or game tends to have not been worth the money. I want spoilers, because at that point I can decide for myself if it's worth chasing down. I've known the entire story of Breath of the Wild and Link's Awakening, and both were still amazing games, and Link's Awakening was arguably more heartbreaking because I knew the entire time exactly what I was going to have to do to these poor people. Age of Calamity was spoiled as a time travel plot for me with a good ending and I was a little disappointed, but at least when I bought it I wasn't going to be upset that everyone lived at the end, because I knew what would happen and bought it anyway for the gameplay, not the story. I hate it when surprises are the only meat of the story. It's why I despise a lot of films. Infinity War was spoiled for me, it's still amazing and I still bawled my eyes out. Captain Marvel wasn't spoiled for me and I hate it. If I had known what the movie was going to be like before hand, then I wouldn't have wasted my money.
Would you be willing to send a link to this essay? Im curious as to why you think Pokémon has done mystery mongering. I've been a fan since gen 2, but always thought pokemon kept lore stuff in the "back seat" so to speak. Its there, and somewhat plays a role in the story. The legendary pokemon of gen insert number here is usually used as a way for the villains of the story to have grand evil machinations (gen 3- increase land/increase ocean, gen 4- i think ruling the world, ect.). But while I believe it would be nice to have villains who don't want to rule the world, that's not really the focus of the games. The games are all about the gameplay: new pokemon, new ways to interact with the pokemon, new moves, and new competitive stuff. Everyone comes for that stuff, not the story. In fact, I'm not sure why Nintendo feels the need to even have a story with the game, feels like a waste of time and money on their part, and it certainly doesn't do anything for the fans. So I don't get how Pokémon has done the whole mystery mongering thing. And am very interested why you think they do. Sorry if this comes across as rambly, I was just curious about your thoughts on the subject, and wanted you to know why I was interested in the topic.
@@katlyncoker8488 Appreciate that, actually~! In fact, my essay is mostly about your very point! Pokemon purposefully leaves stories vague, and questions unanswered, in order to get fans thinking, theories churning, and money coming in. I don't think I can publically share the document since there's some hubbabalub with links and edit permissions, but I'd be happy to give you access to it!
@@Schroering1 Thanks, I'd love to get a look at it. I've always thought the vagueness in regards to lore was due to Nintendo/game freak not really being into stories. And only putting one in the games, I guess because they think they have to? Kinda like Super Mario Galaxy 2. Sure, it technically has a story, but it is very clear that the story isn't the focal point of the game. It's not the selling point, so it's not what the team creating the game is going to focus on. And so its not what fans of the game focus on. I guess you could theorize about Lubba's relationship with Rosalina. Or about how the cosmic ghosts that look just like Rosalina, in much the same way cosmic clones of Mario look like Mario. But it's not like FNAF, where mysteries and fan theories are a big part of the appeal, and are the core of the games, and the franchise as a whole. Also, side note: I'm aware FNAF has its fair share of "mystery mongering" but I'm pretty sure thats just because Scott wants to really challenge his fans. I mean, remember FNAF Ultimate Custom Night. The highest difficulty level on that is insane. Anyways, Super Mario Galaxy 2's only flaw storywise, is deciding to make the follow up of a game well known and loved for its compelling story and fun gameplay, focus only on fun gameplay. Literally, all of the other Mario games focus only on gameplay, save for (I think) Sunshine. So why they decided to continue that trend with the sequel of a game known and loved by many for breaking that trend, is beyond me. But Pokémon doesn't have that problem, so it should be good.
@@Schroering1 I would also be quite interested in this essay of yours, I’ve always believed that Pokémon is a franchise built for self-speculation and discussions, in both good ways and bad ways.
While I do hate spoilers and want to experience a story without knowing about them, I do have to agree that if a spoiler ruins completely the scene or ruins the show, then it's not the spoiler that is at fault, it's the story itself because it's not very good. In the best-case scenario, a spoiler hypes you up, and I have been spoiled about certain parts, but if it's a cool spoiler, then I'm hyped to go to that part and experience it. And that happened to me on some occasions. Mostly in bravely default, while I dislike the fact that I got spoiled by it, I could appreciate the story in that regard about the twist and was hoping i could get to that part. So yea, it's not about the spoiler, it's if said spoiler shows if it's a bad story element or a good one.
Your Advice about how to stress test your story is Way more right than people realize, I use that VERY strategy for my DnD campaigns, I'll tell someone about it, and gauge their reaction. Based on it, I'll revise my story or leave it as is, its helped me write some of the best Campaigns I've ever been a part of
You definitely hit the nail on the head with something that's been bugging me with a Lot of modern media for a long time. The lack of proper implementation of mystery and over reliance on building mystique around a narrative thats never delivered is something that is INCREDIBLY frustrating because spending so much time on building that sense of mystery around what the story could be that the story is never actually told, and everyone involved gets cheated out of something. I will say that some of your critiques feel a little bit too grounded in the idea of "tropes", although I would guess that's less of an actual divide than a difference in how you approach media analysis. For one, Checkhov's Gun and foreshadowing aren't really tropes? They're more literary devices, where they're not really rules they're just effective tools through which you can tell a story. Tropes are a topic thats come up a lot in your recent work and I find how you engage with the topic very interesting, but perhaps a bit flawed. Tropes are a way in which to categorize a story, not how to write a story. Theyre ways to draw similarities in how stories are told rather than rules or actual guidelines. Writing and planning around a trope rather than your own framework weakens a story not because tropes are bad, but because writing for a specific box rather than an actual story is always going to feel like hitting checkmarks on an arbitrary list and letting the audience fill in the blanks where a stories unique properties would be. I don't think youre wrong to criticize harmful tropes in media, but viewing media as a collection of tropes also diminishes the impact of a work.
10:25 And guys thirsty for the Banshee Queen... Right? I can't be the only straight guy who thought Sylvanas was best-girl. Fuck, even in this new form they've put her in since BfA, I still like her better than 2nd and 3rd most popular female characters (Jaina and Tyrande). Also, can we get more significant female characters in the horde? Preferably not a blood-elf. I really dislike that for the most-part female characters have to be fuckable to have an important roll in WoW. Perfect example; The leader of the dismembered, rotting corpses who eventually becomes the Horde's most powerful leader is a conventionally attractive elf-woman with perfect skin and no superficial deformities outside of her tear-markings. No exposed bone, no missing limbs, no rotten flesh, all things that almost 100% of her subjects have some combination of. Those seeing her in a line-up with no knowledge of the lore would easily mistake her for "Just an evil night elf". Just sayin'.
@@Dragonshade64 Indeed, no amputations (except "pirates"), no burns, nothin'. Sylvanas keeps the tiny little cut on her eye from the Saurfang fight, but no sign of the fucking hole in her gut that made her undead in the first place... If I killed the Lich King, I'd display that shit.
I'm prety sure it's not about mystery. They don't know what they wrote, that's it. The just planned one extension further. When Legion was released, only Shadowlands was more or less prepared. They can't explain because they don't have any plan. That's why everything in their writting sucks. Sylvanas is a plot puppet.
Hi Lily! Just wanted to say, I love your work! But I also want to point you to a video that I think helps expand on the idea's of spoilers, twists, and surprising the audience. It's by Overly Sarcastic Productions and the video is called Trope Talks: Twists. I think you might like it, and if you do, they have a wide variety of videos on History, Writing topics, Mythology, and summarizing classic works if that's up your alley. Not looking to plug a channel, just been thinking you might like them for a while now, thought I'd mention them. Other than that, I love your work and I can't wait for the next bit!
While looking at this video I remembered how Tangled hyped up who was going to betray Rapunzel and they kept teasing you every god damn time that it was frustrating. Oh look, it was Cassandra all along and the fact that they made her to be Gothel's actual daughter was stupid enough to be canon.
The only time a story that had a large plot twist that i already knew about still impacted me was danganronpa v3. The twist could be kind of bad, but i was so invested in the characters that i got just as crushed as the when the weight of it truly downed on me. That being said, I do think that not spoiling the story is generally a good or atleast decent thing. As long as it is not founded on stretched out breaded crumbs and actually makes you care about the mystery it is not horrible.
One show I would definitely consider a prime example of the topic of this video is RWBY. Every new season especially after volume 3 just continued to introduce new mysteries and plot elements and I can definitely say many people (myself included for a time) still felt the urge to continue watching just for closure when there was nothing else of worth keeping us there. I love the first 3 seasons of RWBY, but I am honestly glad I was able to stop watching with the newest volume 8. I guess my point is just that if you want another example of a show that only had people still watching for addiction and mystery, RWBY is that.
I've been looking forward to this video since you said you were doing it. I don't think I've ever heard someone point out "if a story is good, having it spoiled won't ruin it" and I find it to be a very interesting point that I find myself agreeing with. On the topic of fan theories, I do enjoy writing them for fun, but I don't hold them so tightly that I refuse to see any other possible way things could go. I've started including counter points that I think of in the posts because I think both sides should absolutely be heard and pretending that your fan theory is gospel is just silly.
I think you completely point out what is wrong with this way of writing. Hype from fans has always been one of the main problems of highly interactive writing that gets feedback immediately from the internet. Why, as a writer, would you EVER aknowledge that hype and even build your work around expectations you can NEVER meet? I mean, I guess your video is the answer, but just, as a human being. Why.
Because if you think you can meet that hype, it's a massive ego trip that can make a lot of sales. The biggest example: J J Abrams writes massive, mystery-filled, open-ended plots, but rarely writes good endings. To him, that's not a failure. That's what people really want. He is convinced people want the Mystery Box, and he delivers on that. It simply does not occur to him that his failure to solve the mysteries in a satisfying way is a failure. It's a *feature*.
@@ShamanMcLamie I honestly think it's more indicative to how much JJ will fuck anyone over that's not him than it is for Rian to play along with JJ's mystery hype game. Before Star Wars, Rian's director style was "subvert everything outright, trust me you'll thank me later" compared to JJ's "everything's a mystery and you'll like it dammit". One great thing about Rian clashing with JJ (debatable, I know) is that he took a look at the Reylo mystery and went "fuck it no amount of cool subversion's gonna make that a thing by the end", but since we're still dealing with subversion Rian over unsolved mysteries hype JJ, no amount of "mystery build-up" in 7 was EVER gonna satisfy anyone once 8 and 9 came out and all that's left to continue watching the trilogy was the three non-"white male" leads continuing getting shafted in the story-telling department because the groundwork was laid out by a mystery fetish hack without knowing what even that word "mystery" even means and one sequel movie done by an over-subversive addict that actually made a mystery-tribute movie later on. While I'm not one to defend any hate geared towards Rian's Star Wars, but the lack of hate towards JJ's Star Wars in a similar fashion, if not more so as the sequel trilogy's lead helm, feels like hating Rain for not following JJ's bullshit while giving JJ the benefit of the doubt that he isn't a hack brainwashing people with mystery hype as a whole and pandering nostalgia with any property he didn't make himself. I could say at least Rian tried and failed more than succeeded, but nobody at that time could have made anything post-7 any good AND wrap up all the sprinkled mysteries 7 laid out like lore-driven breadcrumbs and that includes if JJ directed the whole trilogy he was helming. Good thing Daisy, John, and Oscar inadvertently gave those lead characters enough life for component fanfics to give them more proper justice than the movies those characters starred in.
The Rey's-parents mystery always brings me back to that holiday viewing I had with my family of The Force Awakens that my now ex-boyfriend tagged along with us for. My dad was arguing Rey was a Solo because flying the Millenium Falcon and my boyfriend was arguing she was a Skywalker because Luke was staring at what was a gravestone-clearly depicting a long-dead once lover. We had just stepped out with the crowd and so tired of their macho-man-ego fight I up said, "What if her parents are no one special, she's just a good pilot and Luke was just staring at a normal rock?" Neither believed me, then The Last Jedi came along, my parent theory was proven correct and I just felt bored by the reveal because as was said: what's the point of the twist if you can guess it? Of course, then Rise of Skywalker just did a 180 and made her related to Palpatine and the trailer fodder of her darkly cloaked using a red lightsaber turned out to be a clone. BTW that conversation between Luke and Obi-Wan in Return of the Jedi had to be my favorite moment from the original trilogy. I didn't know until that moment I craved Luke calling Obi-Wan out on his own bullcrap and delusions. It was so satisfying.
There was an amazon self publish author who used sudden inexplicable betrayals so often people made jokes about it in the reviews about who will do it in the next book.
Hilda is good, like Gravity Falls good, but it's not focused on mystery and more focused on how the characters react to nature and fantasy in the same series
I think she was gonna say we can't even choose who we love. She can't feel love because when your brought back to life you are brought back with 1 emotion and she was brought back with rage. She cannot feel the emotion of love. So while she remembers what love feels like and she remembers she loved nathanos she cannot feel it. Thats why in every scene with her and nathanos he seems to love her because he was brought back with that emotion she cannot love him in return.
That's never actually been true. Sylvanas feels plenty of emotions beyond rage, but rage comes more easily to the Undead. Sylvanas' most frequently shown emotion is grief. More to the point she isn't even talking about Undeath in this regard. The word at the end of that sentence could be literally anything. "Love" "Hurt" "Betray" "Reside with in death." It's impossible to really know.
I knew there was a reason I liked The Last Jedi a little more. Cause it was done well in some places, but when you mentioned how some was undone by the previous movie I was like “oh that makes sensel
I agree with you completely on this. The wound or the ghost that creates the lie is super important to a character arc and making them understand them as people. I feel the same way about Sylvanas as I do about Xehanort. It’s like...can I please know why they are doing the shit they are doing? I would really like something I can react to, agree, or disagree with.
![ILLSLICK - THE KING'S LANDING [Freestyle]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/feIJJnNkTfk/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Story of Wrath of the Lich King Classic [Lore]](/img/n.gif)
Lily: *says "abolutes do not work in storytelling" over Star Wars footage at **14:48*
Lily: *doesn't use "only a sith deals in absolutes" clip*
Me: It's treason then.
...FUCK!
"To test your story spoil it," I think that's a good idea. If a spoiler undermines the whole thing it needs more work.
And if it on the other hand hypes someone to reach that point. then it's working as intended.
No no, I'm not a youtuber or i'd make a video just to reply to this ridiculous statement in the video. It's relative.
If it's a minor spoiler it doesn't matter, like "X likes beer because Y died at Z, and beer reminds X of his times with Y. Y is a relatively important character for the first arcs of story".
You can't flatten the enormous mountain of different reactions people have, weeping statements like that are moot.
What a good story is, absolutely cannot be measured by spoiling and seeing how many people still read/watch it. We don't like things because of reasons we just LIKE things, and then find reasons to do so. Your watching experience comes down to your personal sensitivity, and I like many others, find that people who spoil, spoil the stuff I would find important if it wasn't spoiled.
To me that's kind of the point. Figuring it out. I can't possibly imagine a detective novel to be good if it spoils the whole reason to read it, who why and how.
Older detective mystery novels especially were made with the intent of setting up a fair chance for the reader to figure out the culprit.
"Lady Cecile Ashford is getting blackmailed by her step brother through a middle man, hired by the step mother in an attempt to make lady Cecile's dad think she's overly paranoid about step mom's plan to take all the family's money". Oh thanks, you spared me 198 pages.
In the first place spoiler culture exists because some people want you shut the fuck up and not ruin their own experience, because clearly you don't feel the same.
One dude I know went to another state on fucking purpose just to watch avengers endgame and spoil who dies and the key events. Whether it ruins the movie or not is relative, absolute statements on relative products like entertainment miss the point entirely.
@@BygoneT I can very much see your point on absolute statements. But I believe our seperate takes have to do with two things:
1. I'm talking about the author doing it, who will know the difference in what is integral to making it worth listening to their story, not some self important ass willing to travel to undermine somebody else's experience.
2. Some people enjoy stories more if they have more information going in, and sometimes that can make for even more surprises as their expectations are found to still be different than the canon. Your short example actually makes me interested in how those characters got there. Why was Lady Ashford suspicious something was off at all, and how does the interplay between her and her step family imply that to be the final reveal? Those are fascinating questions for me.
There is a world of difference in spoiler culture and a creator choosing to have some facets of their work known to the audience. Esspecially in the case of long running projects leaks about big moments can add mountains to fandom hype, but I'll give that in one off adventures they can be damaging.
I do admit I have trouble recalling one off media. Things which are meant to be consumed and not returned to just don't usually have much staying power for me, which is why I deeply prefer series adventures where we see the same characters for a very long time.
I would like to give you examples of twists that have been neigh universally panned as bad that if leaked would have actually made me more hyped/interested and I can promise would have created some great fanworks, but you're very obviously adverse to the concept of that, which I'll respect.
I can accept your take that it is highly relative but again I'm not talking about other consumers of the media spoiling something, I'm talking about a creator testing how well their story holds up when things are known. This is a test of their skill and the strength of their narrative for repeat enjoyment, something done from a very different perspective and with a vastly different purpose than spoiler culture in its current manifestation.
Is there anything in spoiler culture worth salvaging? Maybe, but it's become more poisonous than it was not so long ago. It's no long about trying to figure out how the journey leads to the leak, it's about undermining somebody else's hype and that's not good for anybody, but can it return to something healthier? Idk, and idk if it would ever be seen like it was before even if it tried.
“And yeah, i’m one of those thirsty lesbians, but i’m at work right now.” I can’t
My exact reaction
Always gonna love some more videos about Sylvanas
You're always here when I make one of these. I love it.
I have literally never played WoW or engaged in WoW in any meaningful capacity but I still love it when Lily talks about Sylvanas
@@socksygen same here lol
@@socksygen I don't know anything about Sylvanas other than what Lily has said about her nor will I likely ever care to know more but just knowing how passionate Lily is about it makes me want to listen to her talk about it
If a story is good, spoilers make the audience _more_ interested because now they're looking forward to seeing how things got to that spoiler-y point.
I think that depends on what the spoiler is (though I agree with the assessment that a spoiler won't ruin a good story). Like with Infinity War, I was told who dies and how some of them died, so I felt nothing when it happened. But Infinity War was still enjoyable bc it was a well written story.
This is a good tip for making a trailer for a movie, or video games.
A while ago I watched the Dead Meat videos for Get Out and The Invisible Man(2019), which are basically summary videos for those movies, and if anything watching them has only made me more interested in watching the actual movies because the stories were so good. And I don't even watch horror movies.
@@desidominguez2876 I love watching the dead meat body count videos.
I hate horror movies because most rely on what I consider one of the laziest ways of scaring an audience, the Jump Scare.
@@Reverend_Salem hate jump scares the most. Cuz it so lazy. It why I stop watching modern horror movies.
"If spoilers will ruin your story, your story was shit to begin with." I love that statement so god damn much.
"if your story is worthless with spoilers , then it should be spoiled" tony stark
I really don’t like when writers just inject story's with mystery for no reason. I can enjoy just running around with cool characters, I don’t need some random magic lady in the background with secret messages to enjoy a story.
Same. Hate the prophecy trope the most though. Like warriors cats for example. I’m writing a werewolf story and keeping those type of mystery out of it.
If it's important to the character, it would be important to the story. Star Wars The force Unleashed 2 has the question "Am I a clone?" Going on for starkiller.
I mean it's only bad when the mystery is out of touch.
I'm so happy I found someone else who hates spoiler culture as much as I do.
The thing that made the star wars rey twist even worse was when they established her parents were nobodies and which sends a powerful message that anybody can use the force but then craps on that idea when it turns out she's a Palpatine
Tbh even listening to fan theories is exhausting, I can't believe some people are out here basing all of their writing decisions on them. Great job Lily!
It irritates me a bit because se theorists come up with intresting ideas and i wonder why they're wasting time on a show when they could write their own story
@@rainbowpuppet2477 hey don't diss them because they want predict what's gonna happened in the story im a theorist so and I like making theories because it's fun.
This kind of reminds me of my feelings on miraculous ladybug. The will they won’t they love square and dragging things out is the reason that I’ve stopped watching the show and just read fan comics and fanfics that are just more fun (like zoe-oneesama’s scarlet lady au comic) it’s a shame because the animators put in so much effort to make this show look nice which is probably why I watched it as long as I did hoping it would get better.
Yeah, as soon as I realised ML was going to drag out its romance forever, and was going to introduce new romantic rivals, I hopped off that show
I remember when I got into the show I was annoyed about the oversaturation of comics that are only about the leads getting together (which is great but you want some variety every now and then), but then the show kept dragging out its own will-they-won't-they subplot for no reason, and now I'm at least thankful that most writers would rather get the confessions over with within a few panels of a comic, or within the first half of a fic or less, without the manufactured bull crud getting in the way (with exceptions but there's always exceptions).
I read Scarlet Lady a few months ago. Not my personal cup of tea, but it's still a pretty fun comedic romp. I'd recommend it.
True, I got 2 seasons in and I was fine with them playing the same formula hero vs villain wise because you can always at least make that fun but when they abandoned that for love rivals and shocking twists I left. I noticed while I tried to watch season 3 that if I wasn't actively watching LB and CN take down a villain I was no longer having fun with the show.
I'm only on the first season, and I was kinda hoping that Marinette would confess her feeling to adrian just to have him not have the same feelings (I'd rather just be friends) and then CN do the same to ML and have her do the same thing.
Also hawk moth being Adrian's father is fairly obvious (especially in the episode were the bad guy of the week targets Gabriel)
Right!
Can't wait until Twitter twists this into "Lilian hates mysteries because she's frustrated when she doesn't get the answers, because she's dumb and doesn't understand that's the point of mysteries".
I understand the frustration. I. hate that kind of crowd that just picks up keywords in Lily’s arguments. Then just make it seem like she’s a crazy person. Those people on Twitter aren’t worth debating when they don’t really care about “good,” stories.
*Lilian
@@baydiac Oh thankies, bad assumption on my part
Honestly people jump at her jugular every time its kinda sad
@@pedmonds2011 That's why I unsubscribed to animat.
Wow I've never thought of spoiler culture that way. Spoiler culture literally just gasses up the suspense of something happened instead of digesting what's actually happening. Great video!
Knowing what's gonna happen before I see it is distracting. The movie experience is less enjoyable because I'm waiting for something to happen.
This is why I never cared about spoilers. Either tell me what's going on or don't bother.
I’m so glad Lily exist to give this kind of advice.
Indeed.
@@midderdixon ya mean the 100 that she deleted
The whole mystery thing also applies to many shows that feel the need to include cliffhangers at the end of their episodes/seasons, for a lot of the reasons you pointed out like hype culture, teasing the audience, and predatory marketing. Hilda season 2 comes to mind, when I saw the cliffhanger of that season, I was genuinely pissed that they would pull that.
This is why I love your channel. You tell it how it is, you don't sugarcoat, you don't put up with anyone's shit and anyone who tries to go after your work, they have to cut out vital info, twist your words or lie.
This is what killed criminal novels for me.
Read to many badly written ones. I'm done.
That closing line was somehow very validating. I consume spoilers all the time as my way of gauging if a story I'm on the fence about is worth my time, and the constant feedback from friends or family wondering why I'm looking for spoilers is exhausting.
My girl roasting fan theory makers, Steven universe, World of Warcraft and Asmongold in the same video.
I enjoy videos like these so much and this has to be one of the reasons, also the latent gay energy and lessons in story telling
You know that she is not roasting mandatory Asmongold,right?
Roasting more like just complaining it seems like see just doesn't like fan theory.
Lily: Calls Sugar a millionaire
Me: "I'm sorry, what?"
Also Me: Does some googling
Me, after googling: "HER NET WORTH IS 4 MILLION? WHY DO WE DEFEND SUCH A PRIVILEGED WOMAN SO MUCH?"
Did people seriously think being an Executive Producer was a working class job?
@@LilianOrchard You have to remember Lily not everyone knows about a show's production (including me sadly) so stuff like that doesn't come into people's mind until the last minute
Clearly I'm in the wrong business...
Mysteries can be fun but unless we're talking a detective/crime genre story they really should not be the focus or be allowed to go rampant. I'm far more invested in the characters and their personal stories rather than whatever vague lore-based theory I'm meant to concoct from a single frame of an episode. If someone enjoys that extreme level of analysis sure go for it do what makes you happy. But it ain't for me as most stories that rely too heavily on mystery boxes come off as too timid to make any decisive narrative choices and so just wrap their tale in enough ambiguity it almost asks the audience to write the story..
Sherlock vs Elementary one is a gritty crime show were Holmes makes wild conclusions that you dont entirely understand the other is a relatively fun show that guides you to solving it with holmes
@@Reverend_Salem I can oddly see the merits and allure of both. Sherlock for those who are in it for the ride and Elementary for those who want to engage with the mysteries.
At around 16:17, there’s an ad break that interrupts you during your final line and it saps some of the impact. Thought you ought to know in case you wanted to scooch it to a few seconds earlier or later!
Though I personally prefer going into a story blind, you know it's great when you enjoy it just as much the second time you play through it, or if you still enjoyed it after being spoiled. I first played Mother 3 and Undertale while knowing the entirety of both stories. Knowing all the twists may have made the reveals less impactful, but it also let me see all the foreshadowing that came before and enjoy the rest of the experience in a more relaxed way. Also, connecting Gravity Falls with your other point about The Force Awakens shows another way that the show did its mystery element well. Though the question of The Author's identity looms over the entire show, it only directly addresses the question in 4 separate episodes before revealing the truth. The show doesn't jam the question down your throat, allowing audience members who don't really care to focus on the other things that make the show great, like the characters and the writing.
“If your story is good, it being spoiled will not deter people from seeing it.” If only someone had told the Russo brothers this while they were writing Avengers: Endgame. It was decent, but I only watched it to officially put the MCU behind me. They’ve announced all these future projects and storylines, and I just don’t care anymore. Everyone’s getting hyped and making all these theories about what’s gonna happen next, and I can’t get excited about any of it because we’ve been doing the same thing for the past ten years.
I couldn’t stand the mystery mongering in Steven Universe. Especially when the show ended no one gave a shit. Even the Roundtable stop making their crazy theories just to do the same thing to Owl House.
When the fix is taken away, people just go find another fix. The Owl House is notable in how all the fan theories are so strange and baseless specifically because there is no mystery-mongering in the show whatsoever.
watching this is 2022 and the whole "spoil your story" part immediately made me think of spider man no way home, because that movie was aggressively spoilt in almost every part, it was part of the marketing, but it was still one of the highest grossing opening weekends of all time- because everyone WANTED and was excited to see the characters arcs conclude, and their favorite spider men of old come back.
I've never really understood the whole hoo-haa about spoilers, but you cracked that perfectly here. Before I always thought "spoiler" meant what I had come to assume it to mean based on how I absorb media: To receive someone else's experience about a story before my own. In other words, to receive a prejudice or a preconceived perception of it from someone else.
Sometimes I see a video on a game that interests me, and I rush to close it before I see "spoilers" so that I can go and experience it myself first and form my own thoughts and feelings about it. Man was I naive to think that's what people meant by being so passionate about spoilers.
your point about the theorising being optional in Gravity Falls and that you can still enjoy the show regardless really resonates with me. I adore Doctor Who, and that show post-2005 has been mostly episodic stories with overarcing plots each series. you can enjoy the episodes on their own, and if you want to try to figure out what the finale's going to be, you can do that too.
I'm surprised you didn't mention shows like Clone Wars or Tron Uprising for how ineffective spoilers can be. Most fans of these shows knew that no matter how much the protagonists fought, all of their efforts would be in vain because the movies that came before showed us that the oppressive regime would win the fight.
Well also we knew and were gaurenteed the result far before the shows launched so we got used to it,in fact the spoiler probably had some including me enjoy the show more since it allowed you to see what the past became from a third person perspective compared to just making it about vader(the prequels) and they acknowledge it while the prequels acted like “GASP what will happen when palpating is talking to a anakin more!?”
Man, i wholeheartedly agree with what you said about spoilers. I tried to spoil endgame for myself because i don't care and wanted to know who died. People give me spoilers and i don't care at all. Because even if i know how it ends or that so and so died, i still wanna watch the journey to get to that point
Lol when listening to Lily’s essays helped me get the second highest score in my high school’s state writing test.
I don't mind spoilers most of the time but I would never spoil a story to someone without their consent. Though spoilers don't ruin good stories they prevent us from experiencing the surprise. And since you can't get surprised twice, something is lost forever. The spoiled story and the unspoiled story are like two meals both good but different. Spoiling the story is like serving me the same meal instead of the both of them. Getting told an unspoiled story is a unique experience that will never be reproduced in our lifetime and it is decent to let people have it.
It doesn't contradict the fact that weaponizing mystery addiction to keep the audience enthralled without delivering anything worthy is despicable.
I love Gravity Falls quite dearly, and recently I had an internet friend who was going through and watching it. Obviously since it's a mystery show, I think that it's more fun to go into it more or less blind and to play along with the show and to try and solve the mystery. I didn't want to spoil the story! ... But then again, Fiddleford and Stanford (both of whom are pretty spoilery characters/have a very spoilery background) are pretty much my two favorite characters in the show (mostly because Journal 3 is a fun read) and every once in a while, I'll just go on Tumblr and reblog everything about the two of them that I can get my hands on... Needless to say, I ended up spoiling the show quite a bit for him. However, I was very glad to hear that instead of ruining the story, that instead it enhanced the experience for him! I think that proves Lily here to be correct. Because I will say that if someone wanted me to spoil the entire story of Gravity Falls, I would oblige them, and I still think that it would be a show worth watching. Because sure, the mystery is a fun aspect, but it certainly isn't everything good about the show.
Personally I've gotten to the point in my life where I can't be fucked to care about spoilers anymore. And I rather despise spoiler culture as well. If someone wants to talk media to me, I will gladly hear spoilers. Spoil me. I really can't be bothered to care. And because of this, I tend to hand out spoilers rather frequently. Because I just want to share my enthusiasm for things with my friends, you know? ... And then I have this one friend who can't stand being given even the slightest hint of a spoiler... And it drives me nuts. Like... She's watching Phineas and Ferb right now, and I don't know what to share or say, because it's not like that's a serialized show at all, but I want to express my excitement! Just... GRAH! I JUST WANT TO TALK ABOUT HOW PERRY IS THE SWEETEST BEAN IN THE SHOW AND HAVE EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT MY CLAIM!
Also I have never really played WOW before, but I just know that you and my bestie are both raging lesbians for Sylvanas, so I can't help but to love her already.
You are like my go to for writing advice. I'm working on a few screenplays and it's extremely helpful to have analysis videos like these. You've helped me to see more and more as to why character is key.
The closing line here ... is, so, fucking, TRUE!
These are real words being spoken here.
Honestly, mysteries need to die down a little because they take away focus from characters, which is to me usually the best part of a story. A mystery like Rey's parents doesn't do this despite being literally about the character, because it doesn't really do anything to alter the way we view her personality, and it doesn't even really change the themes very well (the second best part of the story, and helps define the lens we're meant to look at the characters). If you *do* want a character-driven mystery, you need to have the characters actively seek the answers, a clear motive for the character being so invested, and an actual huge character-defining moment when it gets solved or abandoned.
I hate that I may only like this video once. Thanks for putting all the problems I have with Mystery boxes so succinctly.
If I ever made a cartoon, I would have messages written in code in the background of each episode. But they wouldn't be important to the story at all, it would be dumb stuff like dad jokes and Rickrolls and one that says "If you can read this you're a nerd". It would piss off theorists to no end because they would have spent hours hyper focusing on background details only to find the animated equivalent of an April fools joke
Chekhov's gun isn't a trope its a principle or rule of writing just saying you need to pay off what you setup.
It’s a trope too, though. I’m sorry you had to find out this way.
@@baydiac its categorized as a principle or rule when being study same way something like function is listed as a principle. And though both of these call under the definition of troupe because they are repeated by that definition all things are troupes such as having a character talk on a camera. So while yes it can be stated as a troupe for the sake of ease people call it a rule. And while I might be wrong on this point I think troupes are secondary things like you use a rule and it can create a troupe but I am not sure on that point.
@@immortallord-ot5sn It’s also categorized as a trope.
@@baydiac how rules can be broken you don't fire the gun. Troupes can't be you can't because it just not using the troupe then. Like bury your gays you can change up how it happens but don't doing it just means you didn't do the troupe. Not firing the gun mean you had to set up the gun then use then knife you have to do the action purposely to break the rule. Verus to not do a troupe you just don't do a troupe
@@immortallord-ot5sn breaking a trope is called subversion.
Break a rule / Subvert a trope.
potato / *potato*
setting up a gun and using a knife is a trope subversion.
I think at some point I realized how pointless keeping readers guessing was since ultimately the stories I wanted to write revolved around the characters or personal arcs my main characters had. The closest to mysteries I have written either reveal themselves early or the reader comes to the intended conclusion first and the rest is just waiting for the character to reach this revelation on their own. It's been very relieving honestly
I have to agree I slowly become weary to modern Cartoon and watching the same show over again is just boring
It's true, after SU was done I stopped caring. I liked the songs but story-wise I never looked back. I didn't even watch SUF because I was tired of watching it. And from what I heard I didn't miss anything.
As for Rey, I agree that her parents didn't matter was a better choice than a famous person. Her accepting a horrible truth felt powerful, but of course, it was reconned in the Rise of Skywalker.
Yeah, SUF somehow managed to be an even worse show than its predecessor. I was actually wheezing during certain episodes over how just absolutely bonkers the writing was sometimes.
In a class i took in college we actually had a unit on how anticipation is more satisfying to the human psyche in storytelling. There have been studies done in which one group of people has a movie spoiled before watching it and the other doesn't. The group that had it spoiled indicate they enjoyed the movie more than those who hadn't been spoiled. This was even true for mysteries. Really interesting stuff.
it's because knowledge builds up hype, thus more enjoyement..
I didn't even know "Spoiler culture" was a thing. I thought spoilers were universally disliked.
Spoiler Culture is this obsession with spoilers and keeping story details secret, which has the knock on effect of both A) rendering reviews almost impossible to do their job, and B) treating stories as utterly and completely disposable.
@@LilianOrchard yeah spoiler culture is a pain. I mean I knew of the outcome of avengers endgame , yet still enjoyed the movie . The spoiler doesn't ruin the story for me , it's makes me wonder how we got there or drives me away from a obvious bad work . So good job Lily .
I know right,why do you think people that do that have been the butt of jokers since the start of publicly known stories
@@spacetacos7574 People who do what? Spoil or complain about spoilers?
@@SuperSablei spoilers
You briefly mentioned Gravity Falls, and it brought something up in my head as I recently started re-watching it. I didn't fall in love with the show again because of the mysteries, I've already seen the series at least once. No, I fell in love with the nuanced, well written characters and their interactions, especially Ford, who is a walking talking spoiler. And my favorite episode is The Last Mabelcorn. Not because of anything world building or lore related, but rather because of a scene near the end of the episode where Dipper thinks Ford has been possessed by Bill, and the man absolutely not helping his case by saying 'you shouldn't have done that' and approaching him menacingly. I love that episode because of a misunderstanding and character interaction, not because of anything word build-y.
I can agree with you about mysteries being dragged out and twist reveals. Spiderman did this with the Hobgoblin mystery and that was not well-received.
Oh fucking exactly! I'm a person who genuinely likes mysteries, but holy shit, not every story has to have some shocking twist that cannot be spoiled! Reminds me of how the Russo brothers were so adamant on any details about Endgame not getting out, then every single "shocking twist" in that movie was either the logical conclusion for the character arcs or reversed characters' development. We've had Sherlock Holmes and Nancy Drew for ages now, more than long enough that the twists in every story are well known, but they're still beloved for their good writing. Funny how that happens!
That end note is beautiful.
Star Wars is a great example of the mystery crap making a story unenjoyable. The OT was a simple story: space western. And it’s enjoyable! But then in the new trilogy the story is so convoluted and unnecessarily mysterious that it’s just a chore to watch.
I like having a few minor mysteries in a story, it adds extra content for those who read/watch it again and if done good can recontextualize other plot points. My favorite type of mystery is things never really brought to your attention that suddenly jumps into the spotlight.
thank you for making actually good videos lol
You fucking take that back! I won't stand for this this baseless slander! :P
@@LilianOrchard I mean..you’re not wrong
Always learn something new whenever you talk about story building. Thanks!
Good to see another video. I especially love the one's on writing.
I'm gonna be real about the spoiler point. Because I accidentally came across spoilers for the Warriors series by Erin Hunter, and now I want to reread the books even more. Like I'm desperate to get my hands on them.
"Only a Sith writes in absolutes"
Stuff like this is why when a video game I'm interested in is coming out, I watch the official release trailer, and avoid the tag on Twitter, Tumblr, and TH-cam videos like the plague until after I have it and play it.
Does anyone seriously love Lily's glass of water videos? 💗💗💗
I sure do
@@erikthomsen4768 I couldn't agree more, I honestly love seeing her videos and wondering what is an issue that hasn't been mentioned in awhile in common shows.
Me!!
Yes, these videos just let me know that we can all improve our story telling skills. We as creators have to learn from our bad habits.
Gotta say I agree with the whole spoiler culture being crap thing. I actually actively tell people who recommend shows and movies to me to give me spoilers because I want to know if I will enjoy the pay off as well as the build up, it's also why I always tell people that if they ask me about a show I've seen and they haven't, that I will ALWAYS give spoilers because in my eyes you can enjoy a show even if you know certain surprises or twists before they are suppose to be revealed. You don't need the whole mystery if the pay off is good without it. It honestly shocks me how annoyed people get when a spoiler 'ruins' a surprise or how touchy people can be about telling you spoilers. Newsflash if the spoiler ruins the pay off then the pay off wasn't good in the first place, like you said.
i second that statement.
if you get me interested in a movie.... FEED.ME.SPOILERS!
"I've invested this much energy and I need closure."
Hearing this after the end of RWBY volume 8 hurts... I really am just watching now to see where it goes, I've lost all investment.
then stop hurting yourself.
it's not worth it.
let go of the show, it's already dead.
@@raylenn4444 I mean it's not the show that's hurting me anymore, just the realization that it went to shit. At this point I'm just gonna keep watching to see how shit it gets and laugh my ass off at Kerry screwing everything up
I think the only recent twist I like was the not really known anime, Vanguard: Shinemon. Shinemons apprentice, Tatsuya coming out as the villain was very surprising as the hints of him at the craters funeral ceremony which the show puts you in the idea in that's why he works at the lab and not the antagonist and Esuka mentioning the lab Tatsuya is working at has no known funder (it was Tatsuya) which was a throwaway line to hype up the labs danger. You don't see Tatsuya chiming in to fight Shinemon in the climax coming and its really surprising and rewatching it, I got to appreciate the elements of the twist as it doesn't come from nowhere but from 2 minor scenes and dialogue that made you think of something else
I love your videos so much Lily!!! As a writer, they are very informative.
10:50 yeah that's why fanfiction has become so prevalent if you ask me - lots of people are experiencing this sort of exhaustion with tedium, and wind up making the content they want to see bc it's becoming more and more common to be dissapointed by Canon so people are kind of coming to expect it... Which is more than a little sad...
But at least there IS better content out there now, and people can commiserate about Canon dragging it's feet or messing with fans heads
Great Video as always! Keep up the good work. Hopefully more people will see this and actually listen to it...
Personally never understood people who got super heated over spoilers. Like, I kinda get not wanting to ruin a surprise but would you seriously not care about the story anymore if you knew the twist?
Sometimes I don't think it's the story as much as it is just people being addicted to twists and shocking turns.
I always appreciate your insight on storytelling. Your absolutely right it spoiler culture shouldn’t ruin your story if anything it should make me want to see it even more.
I’ve always felt like the theory crafting trend originated because of adventure time and gravity falls
Jojo is literally the opposite of mystery mongering. Every mystery is there because of the plot and not to further of it.
AS IF PEOPLE ACTUALLY THOUGHT THAT MASKED CHARACTER WAS AMITY 😂😂 ya know for people who focus too much on minor details I loved how they missed that massive one that’s fucking funny
I actually really love stories that follow this sort of... idea? Guideline? Eh who cares I’ll just say it:
“It isn’t the not knowing, it’s the not knowing how”
I love when writers take an interesting idea and play with like Play-Doh, you sort of know what to expect and it’s interesting when they change something to fit their story.
I might not agree with you here Lily, but damn if I don't love just listening to you talk! It's good to have a perspective outside of my own at times shown to me.
Loved this video, it really opened my eyes to a lot of things, your work is always something I looked forward to ❤️❤️❤️
I'm glad someone else understands that spoilers don't ruin a story. In fact, I prefer to be spoiled because whenever I'm not the movie or game tends to have not been worth the money. I want spoilers, because at that point I can decide for myself if it's worth chasing down. I've known the entire story of Breath of the Wild and Link's Awakening, and both were still amazing games, and Link's Awakening was arguably more heartbreaking because I knew the entire time exactly what I was going to have to do to these poor people. Age of Calamity was spoiled as a time travel plot for me with a good ending and I was a little disappointed, but at least when I bought it I wasn't going to be upset that everyone lived at the end, because I knew what would happen and bought it anyway for the gameplay, not the story.
I hate it when surprises are the only meat of the story. It's why I despise a lot of films. Infinity War was spoiled for me, it's still amazing and I still bawled my eyes out. Captain Marvel wasn't spoiled for me and I hate it. If I had known what the movie was going to be like before hand, then I wouldn't have wasted my money.
I wrote a whole essay about this, and specifically about how it pertained to Pokemon. Mysteries are marketable, and so they're abused.
Would you be willing to send a link to this essay? Im curious as to why you think Pokémon has done mystery mongering. I've been a fan since gen 2, but always thought pokemon kept lore stuff in the "back seat" so to speak. Its there, and somewhat plays a role in the story. The legendary pokemon of gen insert number here is usually used as a way for the villains of the story to have grand evil machinations (gen 3- increase land/increase ocean, gen 4- i think ruling the world, ect.). But while I believe it would be nice to have villains who don't want to rule the world, that's not really the focus of the games. The games are all about the gameplay: new pokemon, new ways to interact with the pokemon, new moves, and new competitive stuff. Everyone comes for that stuff, not the story. In fact, I'm not sure why Nintendo feels the need to even have a story with the game, feels like a waste of time and money on their part, and it certainly doesn't do anything for the fans. So I don't get how Pokémon has done the whole mystery mongering thing. And am very interested why you think they do. Sorry if this comes across as rambly, I was just curious about your thoughts on the subject, and wanted you to know why I was interested in the topic.
@@katlyncoker8488 Appreciate that, actually~!
In fact, my essay is mostly about your very point! Pokemon purposefully leaves stories vague, and questions unanswered, in order to get fans thinking, theories churning, and money coming in. I don't think I can publically share the document since there's some hubbabalub with links and edit permissions, but I'd be happy to give you access to it!
@@Schroering1 Thanks, I'd love to get a look at it. I've always thought the vagueness in regards to lore was due to Nintendo/game freak not really being into stories. And only putting one in the games, I guess because they think they have to? Kinda like Super Mario Galaxy 2. Sure, it technically has a story, but it is very clear that the story isn't the focal point of the game. It's not the selling point, so it's not what the team creating the game is going to focus on. And so its not what fans of the game focus on. I guess you could theorize about Lubba's relationship with Rosalina. Or about how the cosmic ghosts that look just like Rosalina, in much the same way cosmic clones of Mario look like Mario. But it's not like FNAF, where mysteries and fan theories are a big part of the appeal, and are the core of the games, and the franchise as a whole. Also, side note: I'm aware FNAF has its fair share of "mystery mongering" but I'm pretty sure thats just because Scott wants to really challenge his fans. I mean, remember FNAF Ultimate Custom Night. The highest difficulty level on that is insane. Anyways, Super Mario Galaxy 2's only flaw storywise, is deciding to make the follow up of a game well known and loved for its compelling story and fun gameplay, focus only on fun gameplay. Literally, all of the other Mario games focus only on gameplay, save for (I think) Sunshine. So why they decided to continue that trend with the sequel of a game known and loved by many for breaking that trend, is beyond me. But Pokémon doesn't have that problem, so it should be good.
@@Schroering1 I would also be quite interested in this essay of yours, I’ve always believed that Pokémon is a franchise built for self-speculation and discussions, in both good ways and bad ways.
While I do hate spoilers and want to experience a story without knowing about them, I do have to agree that if a spoiler ruins completely the scene or ruins the show, then it's not the spoiler that is at fault, it's the story itself because it's not very good.
In the best-case scenario, a spoiler hypes you up, and I have been spoiled about certain parts, but if it's a cool spoiler, then I'm hyped to go to that part and experience it. And that happened to me on some occasions.
Mostly in bravely default, while I dislike the fact that I got spoiled by it, I could appreciate the story in that regard about the twist and was hoping i could get to that part.
So yea, it's not about the spoiler, it's if said spoiler shows if it's a bad story element or a good one.
Your Advice about how to stress test your story is Way more right than people realize, I use that VERY strategy for my DnD campaigns, I'll tell someone about it, and gauge their reaction. Based on it, I'll revise my story or leave it as is, its helped me write some of the best Campaigns I've ever been a part of
I've said this before and I'll say it again; if I wanted to solve a mystery I would watch/read a mystery
10:48
Just curious, are you planning on uploading any of them? Because I could binge read that for hours.
archiveofourown.org/series/1939501
@@LilianOrchard Yes! Thank you! I was looking for something to read in between semesters.
Thank you lilly on the tidbit spoiler culture. Also on everything thing else
I'd also follow the everyone likes surprise, but no one likes being told 'I have a surprise for you!!' 50 times in a two hour movie
You definitely hit the nail on the head with something that's been bugging me with a Lot of modern media for a long time. The lack of proper implementation of mystery and over reliance on building mystique around a narrative thats never delivered is something that is INCREDIBLY frustrating because spending so much time on building that sense of mystery around what the story could be that the story is never actually told, and everyone involved gets cheated out of something.
I will say that some of your critiques feel a little bit too grounded in the idea of "tropes", although I would guess that's less of an actual divide than a difference in how you approach media analysis. For one, Checkhov's Gun and foreshadowing aren't really tropes? They're more literary devices, where they're not really rules they're just effective tools through which you can tell a story. Tropes are a topic thats come up a lot in your recent work and I find how you engage with the topic very interesting, but perhaps a bit flawed. Tropes are a way in which to categorize a story, not how to write a story. Theyre ways to draw similarities in how stories are told rather than rules or actual guidelines.
Writing and planning around a trope rather than your own framework weakens a story not because tropes are bad, but because writing for a specific box rather than an actual story is always going to feel like hitting checkmarks on an arbitrary list and letting the audience fill in the blanks where a stories unique properties would be. I don't think youre wrong to criticize harmful tropes in media, but viewing media as a collection of tropes also diminishes the impact of a work.
I have never actually played this game though I feel like I can see the problems with sylvanus from just your videos
10:25 And guys thirsty for the Banshee Queen... Right?
I can't be the only straight guy who thought Sylvanas was best-girl.
Fuck, even in this new form they've put her in since BfA, I still like her better than 2nd and 3rd most popular female characters (Jaina and Tyrande).
Also, can we get more significant female characters in the horde? Preferably not a blood-elf. I really dislike that for the most-part female characters have to be fuckable to have an important roll in WoW.
Perfect example; The leader of the dismembered, rotting corpses who eventually becomes the Horde's most powerful leader is a conventionally attractive elf-woman with perfect skin and no superficial deformities outside of her tear-markings. No exposed bone, no missing limbs, no rotten flesh, all things that almost 100% of her subjects have some combination of.
Those seeing her in a line-up with no knowledge of the lore would easily mistake her for "Just an evil night elf".
Just sayin'.
@@Dragonshade64 Indeed, no amputations (except "pirates"), no burns, nothin'. Sylvanas keeps the tiny little cut on her eye from the Saurfang fight, but no sign of the fucking hole in her gut that made her undead in the first place...
If I killed the Lich King, I'd display that shit.
Great job with the video, Ms. Lily.
I Don't know how your channel appeared on my feed, But I thank the algorith for it.
I'm prety sure it's not about mystery. They don't know what they wrote, that's it. The just planned one extension further. When Legion was released, only Shadowlands was more or less prepared. They can't explain because they don't have any plan. That's why everything in their writting sucks. Sylvanas is a plot puppet.
Hi Lily! Just wanted to say, I love your work! But I also want to point you to a video that I think helps expand on the idea's of spoilers, twists, and surprising the audience. It's by Overly Sarcastic Productions and the video is called Trope Talks: Twists. I think you might like it, and if you do, they have a wide variety of videos on History, Writing topics, Mythology, and summarizing classic works if that's up your alley. Not looking to plug a channel, just been thinking you might like them for a while now, thought I'd mention them.
Other than that, I love your work and I can't wait for the next bit!
While looking at this video I remembered how Tangled hyped up who was going to betray Rapunzel and they kept teasing you every god damn time that it was frustrating. Oh look, it was Cassandra all along and the fact that they made her to be Gothel's actual daughter was stupid enough to be canon.
The only time a story that had a large plot twist that i already knew about still impacted me was danganronpa v3. The twist could be kind of bad, but i was so invested in the characters that i got just as crushed as the when the weight of it truly downed on me. That being said, I do think that not spoiling the story is generally a good or atleast decent thing. As long as it is not founded on stretched out breaded crumbs and actually makes you care about the mystery it is not horrible.
One show I would definitely consider a prime example of the topic of this video is RWBY. Every new season especially after volume 3 just continued to introduce new mysteries and plot elements and I can definitely say many people (myself included for a time) still felt the urge to continue watching just for closure when there was nothing else of worth keeping us there. I love the first 3 seasons of RWBY, but I am honestly glad I was able to stop watching with the newest volume 8. I guess my point is just that if you want another example of a show that only had people still watching for addiction and mystery, RWBY is that.
I've been looking forward to this video since you said you were doing it. I don't think I've ever heard someone point out "if a story is good, having it spoiled won't ruin it" and I find it to be a very interesting point that I find myself agreeing with. On the topic of fan theories, I do enjoy writing them for fun, but I don't hold them so tightly that I refuse to see any other possible way things could go. I've started including counter points that I think of in the posts because I think both sides should absolutely be heard and pretending that your fan theory is gospel is just silly.
Seeing the beginning of this video I can't help but think about RWBY
I think you completely point out what is wrong with this way of writing. Hype from fans has always been one of the main problems of highly interactive writing that gets feedback immediately from the internet. Why, as a writer, would you EVER aknowledge that hype and even build your work around expectations you can NEVER meet?
I mean, I guess your video is the answer, but just, as a human being. Why.
Because if you think you can meet that hype, it's a massive ego trip that can make a lot of sales.
The biggest example: J J Abrams writes massive, mystery-filled, open-ended plots, but rarely writes good endings. To him, that's not a failure. That's what people really want. He is convinced people want the Mystery Box, and he delivers on that. It simply does not occur to him that his failure to solve the mysteries in a satisfying way is a failure. It's a *feature*.
@@ShamanMcLamie I honestly think it's more indicative to how much JJ will fuck anyone over that's not him than it is for Rian to play along with JJ's mystery hype game. Before Star Wars, Rian's director style was "subvert everything outright, trust me you'll thank me later" compared to JJ's "everything's a mystery and you'll like it dammit". One great thing about Rian clashing with JJ (debatable, I know) is that he took a look at the Reylo mystery and went "fuck it no amount of cool subversion's gonna make that a thing by the end", but since we're still dealing with subversion Rian over unsolved mysteries hype JJ, no amount of "mystery build-up" in 7 was EVER gonna satisfy anyone once 8 and 9 came out and all that's left to continue watching the trilogy was the three non-"white male" leads continuing getting shafted in the story-telling department because the groundwork was laid out by a mystery fetish hack without knowing what even that word "mystery" even means and one sequel movie done by an over-subversive addict that actually made a mystery-tribute movie later on. While I'm not one to defend any hate geared towards Rian's Star Wars, but the lack of hate towards JJ's Star Wars in a similar fashion, if not more so as the sequel trilogy's lead helm, feels like hating Rain for not following JJ's bullshit while giving JJ the benefit of the doubt that he isn't a hack brainwashing people with mystery hype as a whole and pandering nostalgia with any property he didn't make himself. I could say at least Rian tried and failed more than succeeded, but nobody at that time could have made anything post-7 any good AND wrap up all the sprinkled mysteries 7 laid out like lore-driven breadcrumbs and that includes if JJ directed the whole trilogy he was helming. Good thing Daisy, John, and Oscar inadvertently gave those lead characters enough life for component fanfics to give them more proper justice than the movies those characters starred in.
The Rey's-parents mystery always brings me back to that holiday viewing I had with my family of The Force Awakens that my now ex-boyfriend tagged along with us for. My dad was arguing Rey was a Solo because flying the Millenium Falcon and my boyfriend was arguing she was a Skywalker because Luke was staring at what was a gravestone-clearly depicting a long-dead once lover. We had just stepped out with the crowd and so tired of their macho-man-ego fight I up said, "What if her parents are no one special, she's just a good pilot and Luke was just staring at a normal rock?" Neither believed me, then The Last Jedi came along, my parent theory was proven correct and I just felt bored by the reveal because as was said: what's the point of the twist if you can guess it? Of course, then Rise of Skywalker just did a 180 and made her related to Palpatine and the trailer fodder of her darkly cloaked using a red lightsaber turned out to be a clone.
BTW that conversation between Luke and Obi-Wan in Return of the Jedi had to be my favorite moment from the original trilogy. I didn't know until that moment I craved Luke calling Obi-Wan out on his own bullcrap and delusions. It was so satisfying.
All I want is Sylvanas and her wife to be having fun kicking the Alliance
There was an amazon self publish author who used sudden inexplicable betrayals so often people made jokes about it in the reviews about who will do it in the next book.
Hilda is good, like Gravity Falls good, but it's not focused on mystery and more focused on how the characters react to nature and fantasy in the same series
I think she was gonna say we can't even choose who we love. She can't feel love because when your brought back to life you are brought back with 1 emotion and she was brought back with rage. She cannot feel the emotion of love. So while she remembers what love feels like and she remembers she loved nathanos she cannot feel it. Thats why in every scene with her and nathanos he seems to love her because he was brought back with that emotion she cannot love him in return.
That's never actually been true. Sylvanas feels plenty of emotions beyond rage, but rage comes more easily to the Undead. Sylvanas' most frequently shown emotion is grief. More to the point she isn't even talking about Undeath in this regard.
The word at the end of that sentence could be literally anything. "Love" "Hurt" "Betray" "Reside with in death." It's impossible to really know.
I knew there was a reason I liked The Last Jedi a little more. Cause it was done well in some places, but when you mentioned how some was undone by the previous movie I was like “oh that makes sensel
I agree with you completely on this. The wound or the ghost that creates the lie is super important to a character arc and making them understand them as people. I feel the same way about Sylvanas as I do about Xehanort. It’s like...can I please know why they are doing the shit they are doing? I would really like something I can react to, agree, or disagree with.
great work as always