It's telling that people only want villains to be redeemed if they're attractive in some way. Thanos was even more vile than Kylo Ren; he abused his daughters, wiped out half the universe and killed some of the most beloved characters in the MCU (Peter, Groot and Shuri). Absolutely no one was calling for Thanos to be redeemed, they even murdered him twice in Endgame. But thinking back on what Lily said, if Thanos had been even slightly attractive instead of an ugly grape then there probably would have been people crying out for him to be redeemed and shipping him with Carol Danvers.
Yep. This is definitely why Leia is allowed to murder Jabba the Hut, versus Rey not being allowed to do the same to Kylo: he's in the approximate shape of "attractive white man", while Jabba very much isn't.
So Thanos is twisted and wrong, but you can make the argument that he could be redeemed, in a way, and this only happens if you force him to come to grips with his ideology being incorrect, a thing that sorta happened in endgame, leading to him deciding to make a new universe, but had he been forced to confront that his idea will do nothing, that balance can't fix the real problem, and you do that, and from there you force him to look at all the terrible things he's done, and confront that those had no meaning, then you can start a redemption arc, where he goes on a journey of self reflection, starts helping the galaxy and the people in it however possible, and you make sure that we know that this is only to forgive himself, others may still hate and want to kill him for what he did in the past, but that's alright too, just because you've changed doesn't magical make everything you did before better, that can make him have a good redemption arc, but it always was a prerequisite that Thanos did what he did not from malice, but because he believed he was doing the right thing, and he has changed, start with those and you might get somewhere
This came out the day after a Reylo sexually harassed a Kylo Ren actor at Galaxy’s Edge. So her point about Reylo’s essentially self-inserting themselves is multiplied times a thousand.
The whole idea that "oh he's a bad boy, but I can change him" or "he's different for me" is so god damn toxic and disturbing. This shit is everywhere in every fandom and needs to die.
“Sorry love, this isn’t a movie and you’re not the plucky girl who reforms the villain and saves the day. It’s just not done like that.” -Harry Flinn, Uncharted 2, circa 2009
As terrible of a ship that Reylo is, I can't help but feel sorry for the actual actors. The "fans" are absolutely freaking mental, they're so far out of their minds that they want Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver to pair up irl. It's absolutely horrendous, there are numerous tweets of people bagging out Adam's wife, saying she's fat and ugly, how they want her child to die, among other things. It's absolutely bonkers.
That's the problem with a lot of bands these days they can't differentiate between real life and what's on a screen I honestly hated the Reylo ship the truth be told I would have hated any ship that Rey was in she's a jedi right
Lily : "Ennemies to lovers is suppose to be a slow burn. The redemption ark is just the prologue of that story !" Me, a writer who love that trope and hate how many time it's use in a disgusting way : SAY THAT LOUDER FOR PEOPLE IN THE BACK, PLEASE !!! T_T
@@bankheadbounced8764 Thank you and Good Point. I supposed for reference then this would be good. Steven Universe with Racist Genocidal Dictators and barely any consistent personality, and are only redeemed because "family"? Na Avatar with Zuko who's abused by his power-hungry father, who goes on a self-searching journey with his loving uncle and friend-to-all-living-things enemy the Avatar, and after a lot of reflection, a long trial-and-error attempt at becoming a better person? Ye
@@aussiepuppet5250 That's exactly that : How much is your "past-evil-character" trying to redeem themself ? The more they will work for that redemption, the quicker people will trust them. If they doesn't put the effort, people will only think that they are trying to deceive them and turn back evil later again. Oh, and mostly don't make them use excuses for their past actions, like "it's not my fault, someone/society forced me to do it" because that means they don't really feel responsible. And if they don't feel responsible, how can they truly redeem ? They have to know that they did terrible things, accept that they were terrible people, then work hard to never do it again.
@@aussiepuppet5250 Also telling that even with how much lower the scale of Zuko's bad deeds was compared to Steven Ubermensch's Diamonds, his redemption arc still took well over 2/3rds of the show's run, and that was with a fair bit of trial and error. And even after he showed he was on the up and up, he still had to work to gain the trust of the Gaang, especially with Katara, who took a solid 3 episodes of him doing nothing but good things for the Gaang before she finally accepted him. Compared that with SU's paltry 1-2 episodes for their biggest evils (and jarringly compare that to the nearly season long character arc for Peridot for that matter), and the high number of snapshot redemptions in MLP...and yeah.
“Villain/Antagonist seen as “Attractive” is “misunderstood” See also: -OUAT Captain Hook -Sephiroth -Vanitas -Reaper & Widowmaker -Bakugo Katsuki -The Joker(No, I’m not even kidding, people actually want to hit that) -Every Disney Movie villain with little exception -Ganondorf -Loki
@@Alias_Anybody It's really creepy, they like to ship him with Morgoth. Soooo much gay fan art of them, which would be fine, if they weren't physical embodiments of evil.
Like Married with Children? Remember enjoying that series when I was in high school. Looking back, not sure if I would like it now. Grows too old in terms of jokes.
I can't believe people still think straight women can't be perverted when there are soooo many instances of straight women fetishizing gay men like holy heck I knew women who were absolutely obsessed and they were fairly grown women to like 17, 18, 19.
mekael bayati hi! Can I ask what's so wrong about fetishizing sexual relationships between men. I get that the men in BTS are real people, so that is not ok. But men in gay porn and yaoi are either being paid (and consent to this) or are animations. Saying that their taste is perverted sounds pretty arbitrary, taking into account that they can't decide what they like. They can decide to not watch what they like,but the fact that they like it remains. Si expecting them to ignore their likes to appease some people although it isn't immoral in anyway (granted it isn't moral either. It is just amoral). Also who is supposed to watch gay porn then, only gay people? Thank you for answering if you do. These are legitimate questions I have. Stay safe and healthy during this quarentine times
I am an adult, the Reylo kiss is the only kiss I can remember where I actually thought, “eww yuck.” I didn’t care about Kylo being redeemed, because I was foolishly hoping they were building up to redeeming worthwhile people. I thought Finn and his fellow ex-Storm Troopers would do something more then disable some ships. I thought they’d reach out to the thousands-millions of Storm Troopers that were abducted and indoctrinated into the First Order as children and given no other choice but instead our heroes killed the lot of them.
"But Ridley and Driver have such great on-screen chemistry" Yeah, because they're rivals. Sometimes I think head canon only trumps logic if you will it hard enough.
That would explain why the best seen they had together was in the last Jedi when they fought the red guards. It's like goku and Frieza fighting Jiren Edit:spelling
@@isaiahwilson8119 I wanted to love that scene. It was a great set-up, and the way they made Kylo refuse redemption afterwards was just icing on the cake (a cake that was sadly pissed on again afterwards...), but the HORRIBLE fight choreography was just... no. Rey kicking one dude and all of the dudes fall over, kylo stabbing the ground for no fucking reason only to have a guard attack his lightsaber instead of his exposed and unprotected neck, one red guard's weapon just fucking porting into a pocket dimension, it was so bad...
@@thegamesforreal1673 Agreed and because of that. The only duels in the sequel trilogy that are good are Finn vs FN-2199, Finn vs Kylo Ren and maybe Rey vs Kylo.
Disney: " Homosexuality and anything else that isn't hetero is not for children!" Disney, as a consequence of this thought: "Hey let'S redeem Spacehitler so there can be a hetero lead couple shoehorned in!" I swear to god not only are they keeping Walt Disneys head, he is alive and still greeting people with his right hand stretched in the air
“Be a sadist. No matter how sweet and innocent your leading characters, make awful things happen to them -- in order that the reader may see what they are made of."
Brandon Edwards both yes and no. I wrote a character who was initially contempt however his ex abused him to the point of severe mental health problems and ptsd due to rape. I understand what you’re saying but you’ve got to understand that there is a limit to where you should go with themes. If something causes tape flashbacks then uh, that’s over the limit.
Grecia the only difference now is fandom spaces have taken over the creative process as oppose to when the internet first became a thing. Money hunger corporations do whatever they can to get as many people in the seats as possible. The only problem is, these fragmented sections of fandoms responsible of this are so loud that it makes them appear as the majority when they’re not. So corporations believe they’re appealing to the mass audiences and make garbage like this when really only the loud and obnoxious few are.
@@lialovesyou1 I think the redemption arcs or how much fans ask for them is the problem. But you are right, I have been in many fandoms and always find that is the small but toxic part the one that represents the entire fandom. And in consequence the corporations and media only listens to them.
If Disney actually caves to the demands for a reylo baby, I give up on movies as an art form. I stopped watching anime for toxic fan service like this.
When lily said those two words, I physically repulsed. What the fuck is wrong with people. Shit like that and anime is the reason why I stopped watching anime except with a few exceptions. If Hayao Miyazaki himself, one of the BIGGEST NAMES IN ANIME HISTORY, WHO IS OFTEN COMPARED TO WALT DISNEY IN TERMS OF HIS SUCCESS, stopped working in the industry because of perverted, disgusting degenerates like the people who cant go FIVE FUCKING MINUTES without drawing porn of CHILDREN, then we know who gets a front seat on the train to hell.
Lily, I just want to sit you down, give you a hug, make you a cup of tea, and listen to you talk for hours. Even when you're savagely ripping apart the filth that minds inhuman vomit into media, you're amazingly funny and informative. Keep up the great work - you may not get through every idiot's thick skull, but you can damn sure make those who you did smile.
As someone who has always been attracted to villains, even ones that are barely human, and whose actual FAVORITE type of ship is heroine/big bad, I... have NEVER understood this trope. Them being evil and their evil actions is usually like 90% of their personality and screentime. You aren't into the villain, you're into your own OC who just happens to LOOK like them.
I think that, for it to work, they should at least be funny. Like super assholes, but funny. At least that would follow a more real life logic. Funny assholes do end up getting some women. It's like the funny outweights the assholeness or makes it less impactful. But films never take this route for some reason.
EXACTLY i am definitely attracted to villains, but never once have i thought "man, i can't be attracted to that guy because he's evil! he should be redeemed." no, more often than not i adore villains BECAUSE they're villains. there's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying an absolutely vile piece of human (or non-human) garbage. i don't get why that's so hard for so many people to grasp.
@@JSTama absolutely. that's why discord's redemption in mlp worked so well. he never stopped being a horrible little bastard, but he was funny! he was such a delight that any episode he appeared in was infinitely better, regardless of quality, just because he was there. pulling discord out of that stone block and throwing fluttershy at him so that they could put him in more episodes was one of the best decisions made with the show, and i'll stick by that forever. more properties should do this, i think.
@@JSTama My take is if you're gonna redeem a villain, redeem the oafish funny villain, the one who's more like a cartoon than a sociopath. They're likely just there for the job and aren't a dick (think the Scorpia redemption in She-Ra, she was nice, fun and big-sisterly and really only fought because of the whole war thing, contrast that to Catra who fought Adora, mentally abused Adora, specifically made it PERSONAL, and then on top of that was fully aware of how fucked up the thing was and didn't care. I'm glad Scorpia got a faction swap but it made no sense that Catra did)
I loved the part of Rise of Skywalker when Sidious decided his priority was to throw Kylo down the most unfriendly hole he had nearby and not only did Sidious throw him down the hole the bugger bounced off the edge before falling to what I hoped was his end. Would have been great but bottomless pits are the worst thing to try to kill someone with in Star Wars they always come back. Its like falling means nothing if you have the force.
The only Enemies to Lovers storyline I want is two rival Pokemon trainers going from "I hate they're smile." To "they have a cute smile." to "I love your smile."
When I saw this in theaters and they actually kissed I immediately stopped caring about the movie cause it was obvious that the writers didn't know what they where doing or where just trying to please as many people as possible instead of actually telling a story that works
I flat out refused to see this garbage in theaters. I don't want to see a subhuman 30 year old incel be rewarded with a kiss from his victim who's a decade younger than him.
@@Rey_Palpatine when I watched the movie in theatres. My first reaction 5min in was ‘wait what, why is he here. Isn’t he supposed to be dead? And then it when downhill from there
I'll never forget how when I saw Rise of Skywalker and the Reylo kiss happened, I could FEEL the whole theater making a face or raising an eyebrow and going '...uhhhh...' right along with me. We were all in the collective agreement of '...REALLY?? We're doing THIS???'
I always was more an FinnxRey kind of guy. Because in TFA, it was clear Rey suffered terribly from abandonment issues due to her family leaving her behind on Jakku, and her only wish was for them to come back, which they never did. Then Finn did leave her, but then he came back. With Han and Chewie. They did what no one did. What her family never did. They came back for her. They were her family. So even if their relationship was never meant to be romantic (which is fine), I'll always have a soft spot for these two. As for Kylo Ren... Well, you've spent 16 minutes telling why it's horrible. Anyway, Rey deserved better. And not just a love interest, she deserved better movies.
Well actually FinxRey was going to be a friends to lovers situation throughout the ST, by the end of the trilogy they would've been together. But Disney said no to it.
Kylo Ren's redemption was so last minute that, after redeeming himself, he doesn't have a single line of dialogue, not even to his suppossed (but not really) love interest. Rey should have stabbed him and chucked him into the ocean.
It wasn't last minute lol, it's worse. Since the moment they brought back Palpatine JJ was remaking Return of the Jedi and Kylo would be redeemed. That doesn't make it better btw.
@@alburqueniense2442 Even Rampaging Sex Chad Palpatine was added last minute- the artbook released overseas doesn't have ol Zappy Palppy in it, from what I've heard.
The actors desrved better, Adam Driver is a oscar level talent and Daisy Ridley has a lot of potential to be a lead in the future. Yet they will be forver haunted by this cashgrab of a trilogy. Such a waste, for what could been a great trilogy.
Adam Driver in 'A Marriage Story' was SOOOO GOOOD... Him and Johansson just crushed the screen with their acting chops. Absolutely wasted potential of him in star wars. I truly wish him the best roles he can get but sadly he will probably have a hard time getting them because of this shitshow.
The racism in this fandom is completely out of control as well. To the point where it also affected the movies: Finn’s entire character was completely butchered after the first film because fans refused to accept him. He’s literally set up to be a second protagonist along with Rey. The story of a stormtrooper turning his back on the empire should have been extremely interesting and compelling. But because fans literally had a racist meltdown over Finn and Rose in the Last Jedi Disney freaked out and caved to the lowest demographic of racist idiot fans who weren’t interested in Finn becoming a fully developed fleshed out character. It’s honestly disgusting and makes me happy that so many of those same fans are ultimately really bitter about the conclusion of the series. They don’t deserve to be happy.
To be fair, Rose as a character was entirely pointless. However, the actress did not deserve the utterly vile and racist bullshit that got thrown her way. No actor is ever to blame for an incompetant writer or director.
Admittedly I haven’t seen TLJ for quite some time, but am I the only one who thought Rose was just... okay? Like, I don’t remember thinking she was the horrible plague on the series Facebook was making her out to be.
It probably didn’t help that she was almost entirely relegated to the most maligned side plot in the series and the ultimate culmination of that side plot was Finn nearly getting everyone killed because he suddenly became super gullible. Lot of people think if she wasn’t around that side plot wouldn’t have been in there, or it would have been a better buddy cop adventure with Finn and Poe. Basically, people blaming the character for bad writing and missed opportunities.
So on my end, I blame the bad writing and missed opportunities, but that's just it, I don't like Rose because the character is a horribly written mess, who in that movie causes the second time that a character nearly gets everyone killed, I think the idea behind Finn is a great concept, I think Rey potentially works really well and makes an interesting story, but she just doesn't, she never has a consistent character, a theme of sorts in these movies, for all characters, nobody is a real antagonist, because that requires them to be an obstacle to something and none of them manage to be so much as a speed bump in the plot, with the exception of Rose trying to get everyone killed in TLJ, Finn trying to get everyone killed in TLJ, I mean I guess the theme is failure, so it kinda makes sense that the movie is such a failure in screen writing, and everyone fails, at everything, except Rey who by her very presence in the story manages to keep the people around her from failing, dispite seeming to have no bearing on the plot except to lift some rocks
I really don't understand how somebody could look at kylo and rey and say "yes those two are gonna end up together ". The ending of Rise of Skywalker didn't sit so bad with me but then again I saw the Kylo parts less as "redem the bad guy" and more as "Ben realizes he has been a fucking tool and that dying to save the galaxy is the only way he can do something good with his life". I now see I was giving the writers of SW too much credit
I actually giggled in the theater when Kylo Ren took off his helmet for the first time. He was introduced as a proxy for Darth Vader, was portrayed as ominous, powerful, and menacing...but in actuality it's just some white boy with poofy hair who has never touched a skin care regimen in his entire life. Then he threw a Big Boy Tantrum. Oh yes, so menacing, so seductive /s
FinnRey would have been better. Atleast the characters actually cared about each other. Though I do admit it would have come out of nowhere, atleast the two would been in a healty relationship.
Along with also showing how a former soldier that was taught to do nothing but kill could find his own happiness and experience love along with them working well together
@@eauxkei702 You were right though; it was getting set in TFA. It was Disney's decision to abandon that ship following ep 7, since they didn't want an onscreen romantic relationship of a black man and white woman in Star Wars. Then we got... toxic abusive garbage instead.
Even his mother said he was gone and irredeemable in TLJ. His own mother. Kylo needs to die. Hell, the Rise of Skywalker flat out has to pull Harrison Ford back, how they got him back I don't know how, probably a bribe, and get him to look right at you, the viewer, and say "if I can forgive him for killing me, surely you can too." Yeah, thanks JJ.
Thank you for pointing out the Leia-killing-Jabba thing; so many people get fixated on her outfit, and overlook the fact that she single-handedly strangled a 2-ton warlord to death. Excellent and poignant work (as ever), Lily. And on a side note... oh em gee, "shitpost with feet".
In my entreprise's cafeteria, we have a fridge with papers and post-it notes on it. Soon after Rise of Skywalker's release, I had the unpleasant surprise to see "Rey + Kylo" written inside a heart on one of these. I took a pen and rewrote it as "Rey + Kylo = ZERO". Very satisfying.
@@minimariih14 I suppose no. No one knows who the mysterious Reylo is or if the person was even serious. Conversations about Star Wars IX in my office could be summoned as "Did someone see it?" "Yes" "How was it?" "Whitout much interest" "Okay, thanks for saving me 10 euros"
As someone who just escaped an emotionally abusive relationship where the guy and his parents expected me to just magically fix all his self-loathing, depression, and impulse control problems, and then guilt tripped and gaslighted me whenever I tried to protest being a crutch for his emotional shortcomings and bad habits, thank you. I’ve been in a bad, conflicted space recently, his And his parents mind games still plaguing me and trying to make me think that maybe I was wrong to leave him, but watching this video just confirmed I did the right thing. Just because someone doesn’t leave bruises on your body doesn’t mean they can’t bruise your soul. Yeah, we all have our demons. But we are each responsible for dealing with them like mature adults. It is not fair for anyone to expect another person to fix it for you. So thank you, Lily. Thank you so much.
"...Back in the 80s Leia killed her abuser, and here in darkest timeline 1992 Jasmine was forced to kiss hers." Oh, and they BOTH get a gold bikini. How horrible.
And ironic as well. The latter tried to distract the villain for the hero to get the item, but even that didn’t last long. Don’t worry, Jasmine already thought that she did something she is going to hate and still does.
I think he could play a very convincing psychopath or serial killer. IMO he did a solid job of selling Kylo as an unstable and creepy individual with his mannerisms and the delivery of his lines. The dead, almost monotone expression/tone he had at times made me really think this is not someone you'd want to encounter in a dark alleyway. I actually liked the character most when the story didn't try to push him as a "sympathetic" woobie, and just allowed him to be a creepy villain that you love to hate. For example, in TFA I was really pissed/gutted after he killed Han and it was almost cathartic to watch him get slashed up and humiliated later on. This trilogy lost me once it tried to push the blame off on the OT characters and make it seem like Kylo was a misunderstood boy who just needs a woman to fix him.
one thing to note about the joker movie and that whole bit, several mainstream media writers were upset that nobody went on a shooting spree after they spent 4 months saying it would happen
Sorry for the double comment but another thing that makes me supremely uncomfortable about the woobifying of Keylo is the fact that his character is pretty easily coded as being a neo-näzi. (Obsessed with a previous dictatorship due to its show of power as a direct cause of his own parental issues and bringing that mentality back but still being a screaming tantrum throwing man baby when things don’t go his way while still being just as damaging and dangerous as näzi 1.0 on those he oppresses). I mean this was established in the FIRST. MOVIE. and my thinking since that movie aired is “why the fuck are you guys trying to woobify the entitled neo-näzi???”
Ngl, I was fully ready to fight you on the point of Kylo being a shit character, but I realized I really don't have anything from the movies themselves to defend him with. I think a big problem is that literally everyone can figure out how to make Kylo a better character and how to redeem him better, and they confuse their own headcanons for what was present in the movies. I'd love to rewrite the sequel trilogy to make Kylo an actually redeemable character, but as he is, he's a shitty character with a terrible arc.
Me and my fiance are rewriting the Sequel Trilogy so that Rey and her Sith Wife fight the First Order and Kylo Ren gets thrown into a garbage disposal. Rey and her Sith Wife are in the thumbnail of this video
reminder that jenny nicholson claimed that john boyega called reylos inbreds based off of an edited screenshot. and even after countless people informed her that it was fake, including being told by the person who made the edit, jenny has not taken down the tweet or addressed it at all and is instead leaving up the racist slander for all to see. oh, and those people who informed her the screenshot was fake? she blocked them :)
Poe and Finn deserve better, I still believe that they should have got together and although it didn't happen I still really like their chemistry romantic or platonic, but I wish it was romantic I just want see some cute space gays ok?
Pastel Galaxy Studio In an interview with Variety, JJ Abrams said he was “hinting” (sure because the lady with a helmet in TRS that Poe had a previous relationship and attempted continuation said relationship doesn’t contradict this [I’m aware bi, pan, etc. exist but he did specifically say GAY]) that Poe and Finn ARE gay, they just aren’t attracted to each other. So at least there’s a positive male friendship that shows they have a close relationship without being attracted to each other??? (I’m sorry I’m really trying to be positive here)
@@JesseGolo yeah but can't deny that was actual chemistry there, it's one thing two characters together like kylo and Rey of course it's annoying. But it's not if the two characters fit together
Unfortunately representation like that will forever be limited to background "blink and you'll miss it" moments because Disney takes it up the ass from China, and China censors literally everything they don't like. In ROS they had to censor the scene with the two background lesbians in China. Disney will never make push that stuff with main characters cause then that means China will censor most of, if not all of the movie. Unfortunately, companies like Disney don't give a fuck about representation. They give us small tastes so we'll give them money and so that it can be censored in China and get a shit ton more money. It's horrible and disgusting and I wish more people would realize this and point it out.
I personally like Kylo Ren, but I agree that the "redemption" was just stupid to say the least. And the way he talks to Rey always cringe me out, it just so creepy. 🤢
@@mollymcmurtrie8037 I wanted him to realize his full potential as a Sith Lord. Something that Vader could never do because of his injuries and something that Luke outright rejected to stay on the path of a Jedi. We didn’t get that due to EP 8 killing off Snoke and EP 9 trying to pick up the pieces.
Hvala. Simply thanks. I felt the relationship simply couldn't go there, it ignores way too much of what Kylo did. But from the start it saw JJ would pander hard to the fans, so I expected it. Didn't want it, hoped it wouldn't do it, but he did. What a bummer. What a clustefruck. What a way to present a toxic relationship in the worst way possible. Felt something was wrong, but your presentation provided clarity. Ponovo, hvala.
Actually, JJ pushed really hard not to let Reylo happen and wrote almost a completely different script, and may even have listened to the actors’ requests of canonizing FinnPoe. Disney as the corporation was the one who rejected him and said they had to “make it more appealing for a general audience”, and thus rewrote his script.
@@baydiac if that's true, good for him. Didn't leave that impression when they talked with the actors and him. If I remember correctly, didn't Daisy Ridley gave him a glare when they were talking ships and she said that FinnPoe was better? I could be wrong.
It reminds me of SasuSaku from Naruto He berates her, attempts to murder her multiple times, absolutely could give no shits about her existence, but everyone wants them together for some reason. Even the writer himself has gone in record to say that even he thinks the pairing is dumb and contrived, but the fans wanted it so it had to happen.
As a child I insisted that Snape was a bad guy. I mean I was a child and that wasn't based on anything more than "he's a big meanie to Hermione". But as I rewatched and reread the books and movies as a tween, I still thought he was a bad person but all the fandom and people I knew beat me down with "owo so tragic. He loved her why are you so judgemental" now I'm an adult and I'll scream SNAPE'S AN ABUSIVE TWAT AND JK ROWLING IS A TERF from the rooftops
Wow. Just... wow. Lily, I applaud you. Hero-villain ships just don't work in the show proper. The people baying for Zuko and Katara to get together in Avatar were completely ignoring the fact that Katara spent the first half of Zuko's time with the squad utterly despising him and only warming up to him after he helped her get closure against the man who killed her mother. And also a Fire Nation soldier killed her mom. I think this quote from Eldena Doubleca5t's video on RWBY ships regarding people who ship Ruby/Cinder sums it up best: "You don't actually want (protagonist name) and (antagonist name) to get together, you just want a hot evil lady in six-inch heels to step on you."
@Thaddeus Boyns Even though I have been a fan of Zutara for a long while, it actually took me until after Katara forgave Zuko for me to see potential in them as a couple (plus I admit to liking them as a couple aesthetically). I just couldn't bring myself to ship them together because of all that happened between Zuko and the Gaang before Season 3 rolled around. It just wouldn't have felt right to me.
i've been in the anti reylo community since before TLJ came out, and reylo shippers have only gotten worse over time. at first they fetishized incest, and now they fetishize... non-consensual pregnancy, i guess? yikes.
Also I want to mention that I also found it kind of... Well racist that Rey ended up kissing Kylo, but her and Finn remain just friends and that Rose's feelings for Finn were never mentioned. Like that's how much whites have to be paired together - abusive white dudes over wholesome MoC. Yikes.
I kinda feel like you don't understand what racism is... It isn't racist that 2 characters you wanted to get together didn't get together. If anything, it just seems like you're using the term "racist" as a club without considering the implications.
@@rodneydaliege8909 Exactly, and only a dunderhead would use racism as a buzzword despite the fact that humans such as ourselves are the race, what they should use instead for skin-colored people is ethnicism.
I've felt that ever since Zuko was given a great redemption arc (which was planned from the very beginning, might I add), it's now a law that every villain needs to have a redemption arc.
A toxic ship supported by fans? Sounds familiar to me. I'm a straight guy and I have no problem with ships as long as it's not forced or heavily supported by fans that will become canon. Gay or straight, I don't care who's dating who. I never wished for these two to be a couple. All I wanted to see were great characters, great stories, and great fights. This is something I can't stand and it's all over the place. I mean, seriously, Kylo isn't even sexy and interesting from start to finish. No offense.
You mentioned sexual tension between people right when Luke and Kylo were looking into each others eyes. The dumb part of the fanbase should have shipped for that. Was so good.
I was watching this movie in the theaters with a friend of mine, at the beginning of the scene she leaned over and whispered, "Watch them kiss and then he dies." The most I ever do when I'm mad is clench my jaw, but when they kissed I threw my coat and knocked pop corn all over our seats and audibly yelled "Dang it!" It was just so stupid, personally I hadn't seen any chemistry, between Kylo and Rey, and although I didn't remember the last two movies I still remembered that he was just so scummy and killed Han Solo ( and all of the things he does in the this movie). Why would anyone ship them?
So going into this, my perspective is coming from someone who hasn’t seen the movies. But one thing I thought of, and hear me out on this. Kylo could have been a redeemable character, if he didn’t do such Evil things, and actually LEARNED that what he was doing, how he was acting, was wrong. If, say, it was Snoke who ordered the planet killer fired, if his father died because Kylo ordered stormtroopers to fire rather than stabbing his father through the heart. But with all that said..... I agree with you. The way they ‘redeemed’ him in the movies was shit, and it makes me ashamed of the Star Wars Fandom.
imo, there's a level of redemption possible for any character based on their past actions. the more villainous and heinous the act, the less they can be redeemed. so, outright murders and predators can never be truly redeemed fully, but they can learn the error of their ways and at least stop doing heinous, evil shit. they'll forever be stuck in the grey area between good and bad, but they can be less bad. there is a limit though, some characters can not be redeemed at all, and trying to do so is the equivalent of beating your head against a diamond wall
@@baydiac if you're implying a connection to SU, i'm gonna bum you out and just say i was looking for something harder than brick. it's not wrong though
I watched the Film Theory video on Star Wars where he theorized Rey and Kylo Ren were siblings before I watched the movies, meaning I subconsciously assumed they were when I did watch the movies, so Reylo is even creepier and more problematic to me.
I think the issue isn't as much that the First Order is a recolor of the Empire, I mean they're basically what would happen if neonazis would get control of a state, so it's what they're meant to be. But the issue is that TFA destroys the New Republic so that the heroes can be the underdog again and essentially copying the OT instead of actually having in interesting story of a galactic war between two powers on equal footing.
When I went to go see the movie and it got to the bit where Rey and Kylo kiss, just behind me was a grown man whispering to his mother excitedly 'Reylo!' and sounded oh so smug while doing it. Then once the little shit died the man gave a devastated whispered 'noooo' and let me tell you that was a delicious bit of shadenfreude, and for that I give the movie 10/10 just for letting me experience that.
I've always found this ship loathsome for a multitude of reasons. Also, as someone who suffered from physical and mental abuse for years, I appreciate that you always reiterate the ugly reality of abuse in your videos vs. how people romanticize it in stories.
You want to have Kylo Ren be a good villain Disney? Here’s how you do it. Anyone that says redemption is immediately fired, and have George Lucas repeatedly hit them with a tennis racket while screaming, “What were you thinking?” As for the character himself... Kylo Ren had the potential for a great parallel with Vader in the sense of “What if Anakin beat Obiwan on Mustafar? What if he hadn’t become horribly maimed and was able to reach his full potential?” Kylo already has a good antithetical theme with Anakin: Anakin is a Jedi who wants to do what’s right, but struggles with the dark, and Kylo is dark Jedi who struggles with the light. What they should have done if they wanted to keep Kylo as a parallel to Vader (RotS Anakin) was follow that same formula to its end. Anakin struggles with the dark, but ultimately came back to the light in RotJ. Kylo should have had an arc where he considers returning to the light and “attempt” to atone for what he had done, but after realizing that he had, in fact, surpassed Vader both in terms of personal power and atrocities committed, he should have gone fully to the dark side. Give him the Anakin speech of, “I can kill my mentor, he knows it.” You had him kill Snoke in TLJ like he did, he attempts to turn Rey, but fails... and then at RoS, we see him searching for Palpatine, find him, and then Palpatine will have realized, “Hey! This is what I wanted out of Vader before Mustafar! I’ll teach this kid to be a real Sith.” This now allows us to throw away the idiocy of Rey being a Palpatine, cause god forbid we have a strong female character who learns to stand on her own two feet rather than on the shoulders of an already established character! (I see you “Mary sue!” crying incels, quit spewing shit out of your mouth, your ass is gonna start getting jealous.) Then what happens can follow similarly to what they did with RoS, but in the second act, have Kylo kill Palpatine, Palpatine’s spirit and power go into Kylo, making him the ultimate Sith. Boom! Now it’s time for the third act, and we have the ultimate Sith ready to throw down with the ultimate Jedi (all the Jedi now live within Rey) and we get what Star Wars has always been about that Lily described in her “Space Wizard” video (insert literally every lightsaber battle in all the other movies here) Rey beats Kylo, cause Star Wars... good always beats evil, and wrap up the conclusion to the Skywalker saga the way it should have been done! The force is brought back into balance, the galaxy is saved, Rey finds a charming girl and lives happily ever after, searching for and raising the next generation of force users. I’m glad you were able to point out all of Kylos flaws and themes that Disney wanted to force on such a potentially great character. Awesome video as always.
Finn really does as well. There’s so much potential for him as a character, but instead he’s just relegated to screaming “REY!!!” Everytime something happens. Like, yeah, maybe I want a good story with an ex-storm trooper and a force sensitive nobody. She should have stayed as NOBODY.
Fans of raylo were sending drivers wife death treats, literally the most fanatic fans who derive their their own personal image to what fandom they associate with are a bunch of low confidence individuals who never did anything to be proud of.
To be honest, the entire trilogy deserved better. While I haven't seen the films, I've kept up with the dumpster fire. Once Kylo's origins was revealed, I figured he was either going to be related to Rey and/or they would be shipped as a way to mirror the original trilogy. I blame Iger for not using Lucas's scripts. I blame Kennedy for choosing different directors for each film. I know they collaborated in pre-production to get a through line, but their differing styles and visions clashed in the end. I blame Abrams for his mystery box; it may have worked better if he has the whole trilogy. I blame Johnson for subverting everything, not picking up the mystery box, and most egregiously, not reshooting key scenes after Carrie Fisher's death to better service Duel of the Fates. This led to Trevorrow's script being useless with The Last Jedi as is and him leaving. Disney had to do something to win back the fans including Reylo, Palpatine, and consulting Lucas all to Frankenstein something that made could sense and profit with Fisher's passing and Luke's death. I've never had an issue with the concept of Foe Yay, specifically Foe Romance Subtext as it can make the dynamics and interactions more interesting. It all depends on medium, the characters, the level of villainy, and the direction of the romance. Kylo's Villainous Crush can work in making him a more despised character and his Defecting for Love can be seen as him trying to make right in his mind similar to Vader tossing Palpatine, another mirror to the original and another criticism to Abrams like with The Force Awakens and his run with Star Trek. Rey reciprocating doesn't make sense beyond plot device, but Love Redeems and Death Equals Redemption.
Discussing this topic with a friend of mine today, she summed it up perfectly: "Remember that time on the MTV awards when Michael Jackson and Lisa Marie Presley kissed? That's what Reylo feels like... millions of people cringing in unison while trying not to vomit in their own mouths."
I take comfort in the fact the entire cast hates reylo too. As for tlj, I think that was the entire point of subverting fans expectations in the first place. Fans: who are Rey’s parents? Who’s snoke? Etc Rian Johnson: who cares? Kylo’s the real villain here and Rey doesn’t need some lineage to be important.
I'm just so shocked that people wanted him to get a 'Redemption'. Especially when we only had the 1st film. He killed one of the most beloved character from the original series, who just happened to be his Father! If you told a Star Wars fan before these movies came out that the most disgusting, scary villain in the whole franchise, would Kill Han Solo & then get a 'Redemption' in the last movie plus getting to kiss the main character. They would laugh at you & tell you that's so stupid! It's just...weird. & that's 1 reason why this 'Redemption' is just the fucking worst.
Your points are usually solid and have a unique perspective. As much as some people may dislike your videos, they're neccessary. Sorry for being Cis-straight though, not much I can do about it.
I'll never forgive the SW fandom for missing Kylo Ren's who point in TFA. He was a JOKE. He was a child, someone given too much power too quickly and Rey was the perfect opposite. A strong, tightly held together person that could easily use the Force because she knew herself so well. And them together despite her own fatherly figure relationship with Han??? No. Too far Disney.
You know, you could probably make The Last Skywalker 10x better if, after the Rey and Kylo Ren kiss, she takes the opportunity to grab his lightsaber and impale him with it before breaking it, spitting on the ground and walking off.
I liked Rey a lot too but the sequel trilogy was so poorly structured and completely based on what the immediate fan reactions were at the time. As a result the characters and the "over arching" story suffered. I never understood ReyLo (god it's gross typing it) and I never will. That kiss and whole "romance" was ham-fisted and terrible. Thank you Lily for calling it out for what it is.
Honestly I can only watch Force Awakens and enjoy it, Rey is adorable with her ship nerdness, her friendship with BB8, Finn, chewie and Hans was amazing and it was leading to some amazing things with Finn possibly starting a storm trooper revolution and relationship with Poe, Rey finding family in Leia, Luke (and Hans before he died) and rebuilding the Jedi order properly. Kylo Ren being a petty bitch could've shown us a different villain in star wars (who shouldn't have been redeemed) and so many other stuff. It's disappointing how much potential this series had just from force awakens. There's a few things I like in last Jedi such as the porgs because I'm weak to cute creatures, Rose could've been interesting and help Finn on his arc to save stormtroopers, Poes trust in Leia and her parental love to Poe and Rey (the children Leia deserved but lost) and Luke. Such wasted potential
I saw this movie yesterday and literally thought "ok so has he crossed the moral event horizon Lily talks about... yes 100%." I cant fucking get away from you Lily!
Every time the Sequel Trilogy is brought up I am a nerdy black man feel so hated and pushed aside for these same retched people They hated the possibly of a black jedi and made sure that Reylo was not only front in center but Finn is made a joke over and over and over even when we all know he was supposed to be the main rival of Kylo Ren originally.
gruffen4 She single handedly stopped Finn from committing suicide when there was an easy non-life threatening way to do what he wanted to do, so “doing dumb shit that puts everyone in danger” is highly inaccurate to me. She’s just a flawed human like all the other characters. _(and maybe fans didn’t like her getting in the way of Finn’s ~dramatic hero death~ despite that doing it was the smart thing to do!)_
For all the talk about Rey being a Mary Sue, I'm surprised how little this is talked about. This is one of the most Mary Suish traits that she has, and yet people seem to ignore this 5:24 I noticed how you used pre-suit Vader. I wonder if that's specifically to show that you're not talking about the scary black suit, but the guy inside it
Thank you so much for this. This does not get talked about enough. It’s bad enough people ship them, but everything about this ship gets worse and worse. Damn, I forget these movies are meant for kids. Why are the adults in fandoms so obsessed with ruining everything?
Rey and kylo: *kissed* Meanwhile Mandalorian: they kiss?😕 Nostalgia critic: uhhuh😑 Mandalorian: odd, i tought they sort of have a brother and sister relationship😐 Nostalgia critic: like any other place in this world😒
![🎤 จับฉลากร้องเพลง x P’ #XXSIVK [EP.1] (2/2) เพื่อนจับได้คำไหน..ต้องร้องคำนั้น เริ่ม! 💓🎶 #MXFRUIT](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1bJvMJXmeS4/mqdefault.jpg)
It's telling that people only want villains to be redeemed if they're attractive in some way. Thanos was even more vile than Kylo Ren; he abused his daughters, wiped out half the universe and killed some of the most beloved characters in the MCU (Peter, Groot and Shuri). Absolutely no one was calling for Thanos to be redeemed, they even murdered him twice in Endgame. But thinking back on what Lily said, if Thanos had been even slightly attractive instead of an ugly grape then there probably would have been people crying out for him to be redeemed and shipping him with Carol Danvers.
The worse thing is that you are right.
There was a bit of Thanos smut...
... you’ve not been on tumblr I’ve seen folks thirsting over thanos sadly.
Yep. This is definitely why Leia is allowed to murder Jabba the Hut, versus Rey not being allowed to do the same to Kylo: he's in the approximate shape of "attractive white man", while Jabba very much isn't.
So Thanos is twisted and wrong, but you can make the argument that he could be redeemed, in a way, and this only happens if you force him to come to grips with his ideology being incorrect, a thing that sorta happened in endgame, leading to him deciding to make a new universe, but had he been forced to confront that his idea will do nothing, that balance can't fix the real problem, and you do that, and from there you force him to look at all the terrible things he's done, and confront that those had no meaning, then you can start a redemption arc, where he goes on a journey of self reflection, starts helping the galaxy and the people in it however possible, and you make sure that we know that this is only to forgive himself, others may still hate and want to kill him for what he did in the past, but that's alright too, just because you've changed doesn't magical make everything you did before better, that can make him have a good redemption arc, but it always was a prerequisite that Thanos did what he did not from malice, but because he believed he was doing the right thing, and he has changed, start with those and you might get somewhere
This came out the day after a Reylo sexually harassed a Kylo Ren actor at Galaxy’s Edge. So her point about Reylo’s essentially self-inserting themselves is multiplied times a thousand.
FUCKING YIKES
Yes fucking yikes indeed
Seriously! God how ridiculous can people be disgusting.
Apparently, for similar reasons, there's no Tarzan walk-around character, because female fans kept groping the actors.
@@BrightWulph i thought it was only slapping the butt of the costume but WOW
The whole idea that "oh he's a bad boy, but I can change him" or "he's different for me" is so god damn toxic and disturbing. This shit is everywhere in every fandom and needs to die.
At the very least have he/she/they get behind bars and then you start the talking and the redeeming if possible
“Sorry love, this isn’t a movie and you’re not the plucky girl who reforms the villain and saves the day. It’s just not done like that.” -Harry Flinn, Uncharted 2, circa 2009
As terrible of a ship that Reylo is, I can't help but feel sorry for the actual actors. The "fans" are absolutely freaking mental, they're so far out of their minds that they want Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver to pair up irl. It's absolutely horrendous, there are numerous tweets of people bagging out Adam's wife, saying she's fat and ugly, how they want her child to die, among other things. It's absolutely bonkers.
OMG...
@@quietplace8924 Yeah, it's pretty bad. I think Daisy Ridley has copped a load as well about her boyfriend. It's honestly disgusting.
That's the problem with a lot of bands these days they can't differentiate between real life and what's on a screen I honestly hated the Reylo ship the truth be told I would have hated any ship that Rey was in she's a jedi right
@@x.baughans3526 Without a doubt, even if it wasnt a toxic ship. Taking it as far as these nutcases do is just sickening.
It's like the Twilight fandom all over again!
"Shitpost with feet"
"Post-Twitter society, bottom text"
God damn Lily, these are some top-tier quotes
You gotta quote the whole thing: "We live in a post twitter society bottom text"
Also look in the description
@@LilianOrchard hey they are my teath
@@LilianOrchard HAH! I hate Kylo anyway!
YOU AIN'T GETTIN' MY TEETH ORCHARD!!! XDDD
Don't kiss, don't kiss, don't kiss, don't kiss, don't kiss, don't kiss, don't kiss, don't kiss, don't kiss, don't kiss, don't kiss, don't kiss, don't kiss, don't kiss, don't kiss, don't kiss, don't kiss - OH COME ON!
Me when a movie I watch has a boy and girl protagonist
@@A-Bot779 yep me every time too lol
Lily : "Ennemies to lovers is suppose to be a slow burn. The redemption ark is just the prologue of that story !"
Me, a writer who love that trope and hate how many time it's use in a disgusting way : SAY THAT LOUDER FOR PEOPLE IN THE BACK, PLEASE !!! T_T
As an aspiring writer, I'd just like to ask how slow would that kind of redemption need to be?
@@aussiepuppet5250 That depends on how evil you've set up who you're trying to redeem and how your world mainly their former enemy feels about them.
@@bankheadbounced8764 Thank you and Good Point.
I supposed for reference then this would be good.
Steven Universe with Racist Genocidal Dictators and barely any consistent personality, and are only redeemed because "family"? Na
Avatar with Zuko who's abused by his power-hungry father, who goes on a self-searching journey with his loving uncle and friend-to-all-living-things enemy the Avatar, and after a lot of reflection, a long trial-and-error attempt at becoming a better person? Ye
@@aussiepuppet5250 That's exactly that : How much is your "past-evil-character" trying to redeem themself ? The more they will work for that redemption, the quicker people will trust them. If they doesn't put the effort, people will only think that they are trying to deceive them and turn back evil later again. Oh, and mostly don't make them use excuses for their past actions, like "it's not my fault, someone/society forced me to do it" because that means they don't really feel responsible. And if they don't feel responsible, how can they truly redeem ? They have to know that they did terrible things, accept that they were terrible people, then work hard to never do it again.
@@aussiepuppet5250 Also telling that even with how much lower the scale of Zuko's bad deeds was compared to Steven Ubermensch's Diamonds, his redemption arc still took well over 2/3rds of the show's run, and that was with a fair bit of trial and error. And even after he showed he was on the up and up, he still had to work to gain the trust of the Gaang, especially with Katara, who took a solid 3 episodes of him doing nothing but good things for the Gaang before she finally accepted him. Compared that with SU's paltry 1-2 episodes for their biggest evils (and jarringly compare that to the nearly season long character arc for Peridot for that matter), and the high number of snapshot redemptions in MLP...and yeah.
“Villain/Antagonist seen as “Attractive” is “misunderstood”
See also:
-OUAT Captain Hook
-Sephiroth
-Vanitas
-Reaper & Widowmaker
-Bakugo Katsuki
-The Joker(No, I’m not even kidding, people actually want to hit that)
-Every Disney Movie villain with little exception
-Ganondorf
-Loki
@Gameapple
Who cares if he has long hair and abs! /s
Heck, they don't even have to be attractive if they're powerful enough. Hence why Sauron has a disturbing number of thirsty fangirls.
Thirsty for Sauron? Seriously? That sounds like something the MGTOW crowd made up to make women look bad. Who hurt these girls?
@@Alias_Anybody It's really creepy, they like to ship him with Morgoth. Soooo much gay fan art of them, which would be fine, if they weren't physical embodiments of evil.
-Thanos(yes people think this shriveled raisin is hot. I hate the internet sometimes)
REYLO IS EVERY STEREOTYPICAL STRAIGHT MARRIAGE FROM A SITCOM where they marry but they HATE each other
Like Married with Children?
Remember enjoying that series when I was in high school.
Looking back, not sure if I would like it now. Grows too old in terms of jokes.
I can't believe people still think straight women can't be perverted when there are soooo many instances of straight women fetishizing gay men like holy heck I knew women who were absolutely obsessed and they were fairly grown women to like 17, 18, 19.
This reminds me of my boss, they're 31 and obsessed with BTS to the point that they showcase gay porn of their members every shift. It’s so... Ugh...
MariaMaria believe me, I know and have already done so
mekael bayati hi! Can I ask what's so wrong about fetishizing sexual relationships between men. I get that the men in BTS are real people, so that is not ok. But men in gay porn and yaoi are either being paid (and consent to this) or are animations.
Saying that their taste is perverted sounds pretty arbitrary, taking into account that they can't decide what they like. They can decide to not watch what they like,but the fact that they like it remains. Si expecting them to ignore their likes to appease some people although it isn't immoral in anyway (granted it isn't moral either. It is just amoral).
Also who is supposed to watch gay porn then, only gay people? Thank you for answering if you do. These are legitimate questions I have. Stay safe and healthy during this quarentine times
i think that there are some people who do realize that but they take advantage of it and encourage it. isn't yaoi marketed towards straight women?
@@ohgoditsdave2837 It is xD
I am an adult, the Reylo kiss is the only kiss I can remember where I actually thought, “eww yuck.”
I didn’t care about Kylo being redeemed, because I was foolishly hoping they were building up to redeeming worthwhile people. I thought Finn and his fellow ex-Storm Troopers would do something more then disable some ships. I thought they’d reach out to the thousands-millions of Storm Troopers that were abducted and indoctrinated into the First Order as children and given no other choice but instead our heroes killed the lot of them.
Lily laughing makes my soul happy. It’s very wholesome.
Lasange yea, that made me really happy too.
Oh trust me. Getting Lily to laugh is always a highlight of my day
SHITPOST WIT FEETTTTTTTRR
not only rey, everyone on the new trilogy deserved better
Kylo Ren deserved worse
@@LilianOrchard I will rephrase my comment, every one in the new trilogy deserved a better story
@@LilianOrchard He deserved a better story arch where he gets thrown into a reactor core in the end.
@@jonasboel2473 This. Yes. Fuck Reylo - Toss the pathetic sack of shit down a reactor tube.
Star Wars episode 9.5 : Kylo Ren gets put on trial for war crimes
"But Ridley and Driver have such great on-screen chemistry"
Yeah, because they're rivals. Sometimes I think head canon only trumps logic if you will it hard enough.
That would explain why the best seen they had together was in the last Jedi when they fought the red guards. It's like goku and Frieza fighting Jiren
Edit:spelling
"it was a perfect chemistry. Amazing Chemistry" Trump 2019
"Vanitas and Ventus Have great Chemistry" some dumb-ass out there.
@@isaiahwilson8119 I wanted to love that scene. It was a great set-up, and the way they made Kylo refuse redemption afterwards was just icing on the cake (a cake that was sadly pissed on again afterwards...), but the HORRIBLE fight choreography was just... no. Rey kicking one dude and all of the dudes fall over, kylo stabbing the ground for no fucking reason only to have a guard attack his lightsaber instead of his exposed and unprotected neck, one red guard's weapon just fucking porting into a pocket dimension, it was so bad...
@@thegamesforreal1673 Agreed and because of that. The only duels in the sequel trilogy that are good are Finn vs FN-2199, Finn vs Kylo Ren and maybe Rey vs Kylo.
Disney: " Homosexuality and anything else that isn't hetero is not for children!"
Disney, as a consequence of this thought: "Hey let'S redeem Spacehitler so there can be a hetero lead couple shoehorned in!"
I swear to god not only are they keeping Walt Disneys head, he is alive and still greeting people with his right hand stretched in the air
I personally believe that a movie marketed for children should not have torture scenes so potent that they would trigger RAPE FLASHBACKS!
Weird that we can't have villains die anymore to atone their sins because Children... but torturing the main hero is Ok!?
But hey... at least there was a lesbian kiss? They must have taken representation lessons from the producers of Voltron.
Yah that's just so they can say to ppl it's made for kids but then they throw in adult themes that could cause grown adults PTSD
“Be a sadist. No matter how sweet and innocent your leading characters, make awful things happen to them -- in order that the reader may see what they are made of."
Brandon Edwards both yes and no. I wrote a character who was initially contempt however his ex abused him to the point of severe mental health problems and ptsd due to rape. I understand what you’re saying but you’ve got to understand that there is a limit to where you should go with themes. If something causes tape flashbacks then uh, that’s over the limit.
I miss classic Disney villains:
1. Not redemption arcs.
2. Great moments. (Funny, badass or genually scary)
3. NOT SHIP THEM.
4. Good songs.
Grecia the only difference now is fandom spaces have taken over the creative process as oppose to when the internet first became a thing. Money hunger corporations do whatever they can to get as many people in the seats as possible. The only problem is, these fragmented sections of fandoms responsible of this are so loud that it makes them appear as the majority when they’re not. So corporations believe they’re appealing to the mass audiences and make garbage like this when really only the loud and obnoxious few are.
@@lialovesyou1 I think the redemption arcs or how much fans ask for them is the problem.
But you are right, I have been in many fandoms and always find that is the small but toxic part the one that represents the entire fandom. And in consequence the corporations and media only listens to them.
It’s almost like people are romanticizing abusive relationships...
Probably because that's the only experience they had of them this decade.
If Disney actually caves to the demands for a reylo baby, I give up on movies as an art form. I stopped watching anime for toxic fan service like this.
Seriously. One of my favorites went from a pure comedy show to a high school dating show and it's gross
When lily said those two words, I physically repulsed. What the fuck is wrong with people. Shit like that and anime is the reason why I stopped watching anime except with a few exceptions. If Hayao Miyazaki himself, one of the BIGGEST NAMES IN ANIME HISTORY, WHO IS OFTEN COMPARED TO WALT DISNEY IN TERMS OF HIS SUCCESS, stopped working in the industry because of perverted, disgusting degenerates like the people who cant go FIVE FUCKING MINUTES without drawing porn of CHILDREN, then we know who gets a front seat on the train to hell.
For me I just kinda brush it off cuz at this point every medium has their gimmik
Better than Paul brothers or Lele Pons content where they legit target to actual children
@@DT-yw4ob ahhh I remember the first time I watched bullshit like that (kiss x sis)
Lily, I just want to sit you down, give you a hug, make you a cup of tea, and listen to you talk for hours. Even when you're savagely ripping apart the filth that minds inhuman vomit into media, you're amazingly funny and informative. Keep up the great work - you may not get through every idiot's thick skull, but you can damn sure make those who you did smile.
As someone who has always been attracted to villains, even ones that are barely human, and whose actual FAVORITE type of ship is heroine/big bad, I... have NEVER understood this trope. Them being evil and their evil actions is usually like 90% of their personality and screentime. You aren't into the villain, you're into your own OC who just happens to LOOK like them.
I think that, for it to work, they should at least be funny. Like super assholes, but funny. At least that would follow a more real life logic. Funny assholes do end up getting some women. It's like the funny outweights the assholeness or makes it less impactful.
But films never take this route for some reason.
EXACTLY
i am definitely attracted to villains, but never once have i thought "man, i can't be attracted to that guy because he's evil! he should be redeemed."
no, more often than not i adore villains BECAUSE they're villains. there's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying an absolutely vile piece of human (or non-human) garbage. i don't get why that's so hard for so many people to grasp.
@@JSTama absolutely. that's why discord's redemption in mlp worked so well. he never stopped being a horrible little bastard, but he was funny! he was such a delight that any episode he appeared in was infinitely better, regardless of quality, just because he was there. pulling discord out of that stone block and throwing fluttershy at him so that they could put him in more episodes was one of the best decisions made with the show, and i'll stick by that forever.
more properties should do this, i think.
@@JSTama My take is if you're gonna redeem a villain, redeem the oafish funny villain, the one who's more like a cartoon than a sociopath. They're likely just there for the job and aren't a dick
(think the Scorpia redemption in She-Ra, she was nice, fun and big-sisterly and really only fought because of the whole war thing, contrast that to Catra who fought Adora, mentally abused Adora, specifically made it PERSONAL, and then on top of that was fully aware of how fucked up the thing was and didn't care. I'm glad Scorpia got a faction swap but it made no sense that Catra did)
@@undyingUmbrage413 woah what the hell are you doing here
I loved the part of Rise of Skywalker when Sidious decided his priority was to throw Kylo down the most unfriendly hole he had nearby and not only did Sidious throw him down the hole the bugger bounced off the edge before falling to what I hoped was his end. Would have been great but bottomless pits are the worst thing to try to kill someone with in Star Wars they always come back. Its like falling means nothing if you have the force.
I mean yeah, if the pit is bottomless and you fall long enough to get your bearings, you just have to use the Force to lift yourself out.
Attack of the Fifty Clones of Grey actually sounds hilarious, that's a bad fanfic I'd read.
The only Enemies to Lovers storyline I want is two rival Pokemon trainers going from "I hate they're smile." To "they have a cute smile." to "I love your smile."
You mean like Red x Blue and Gold x Silver?
So.... Gloria and Marnie?
@@WillowEpp yes
@@autobotstarscream765 also yes
@@eduardopantoja9115 yeah, your right I'm newer to the pokemon community and and I didn't realize that part. Sorry
When I saw this in theaters and they actually kissed I immediately stopped caring about the movie cause it was obvious that the writers didn't know what they where doing or where just trying to please as many people as possible instead of actually telling a story that works
same here
I flat out refused to see this garbage in theaters. I don't want to see a subhuman 30 year old incel be rewarded with a kiss from his victim who's a decade younger than him.
@@Rey_Palpatine when I watched the movie in theatres. My first reaction 5min in was ‘wait what, why is he here. Isn’t he supposed to be dead? And then it when downhill from there
"Shitpost with feet"
Dear, god.
WE NEED A MEDIC HERE!
Driver is a former Marine! He would most likely find that funny.
I'll never forget how when I saw Rise of Skywalker and the Reylo kiss happened, I could FEEL the whole theater making a face or raising an eyebrow and going '...uhhhh...' right along with me. We were all in the collective agreement of '...REALLY?? We're doing THIS???'
I always was more an FinnxRey kind of guy. Because in TFA, it was clear Rey suffered terribly from abandonment issues due to her family leaving her behind on Jakku, and her only wish was for them to come back, which they never did.
Then Finn did leave her, but then he came back. With Han and Chewie. They did what no one did. What her family never did. They came back for her. They were her family.
So even if their relationship was never meant to be romantic (which is fine), I'll always have a soft spot for these two.
As for Kylo Ren... Well, you've spent 16 minutes telling why it's horrible.
Anyway, Rey deserved better. And not just a love interest, she deserved better movies.
Well actually FinxRey was going to be a friends to lovers situation throughout the ST, by the end of the trilogy they would've been together. But Disney said no to it.
"If you think Darth Trash was the best character in the new Star Wars movies, I'm going to steal your teeth"
laughed so hard I coughed.
Kylo Ren's redemption was so last minute that, after redeeming himself, he doesn't have a single line of dialogue, not even to his suppossed (but not really) love interest.
Rey should have stabbed him and chucked him into the ocean.
It wasn't last minute lol, it's worse.
Since the moment they brought back Palpatine JJ was remaking Return of the Jedi and Kylo would be redeemed.
That doesn't make it better btw.
@@alburqueniense2442
Even Rampaging Sex Chad Palpatine was added last minute- the artbook released overseas doesn't have ol Zappy Palppy in it, from what I've heard.
@@davidrowland902 Palpatine probably needed to Force-Lightning his dick to get it up, lmao
@@davidrowland902 Nope. Concept art already revealed that JJ planned to bring him back since 2017.
The no dialogue was the POINT.
Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley deserved better scripts.
Daisy Ridley, John Boyega and Oscar Isaac deserved better scripts
Disney star wars deserved better scripts
The actors desrved better, Adam Driver is a oscar level talent and Daisy Ridley has a lot of potential to be a lead in the future. Yet they will be forver haunted by this cashgrab of a trilogy. Such a waste, for what could been a great trilogy.
Adam Driver in 'A Marriage Story' was SOOOO GOOOD... Him and Johansson just crushed the screen with their acting chops. Absolutely wasted potential of him in star wars. I truly wish him the best roles he can get but sadly he will probably have a hard time getting them because of this shitshow.
The racism in this fandom is completely out of control as well. To the point where it also affected the movies: Finn’s entire character was completely butchered after the first film because fans refused to accept him. He’s literally set up to be a second protagonist along with Rey. The story of a stormtrooper turning his back on the empire should have been extremely interesting and compelling. But because fans literally had a racist meltdown over Finn and Rose in the Last Jedi Disney freaked out and caved to the lowest demographic of racist idiot fans who weren’t interested in Finn becoming a fully developed fleshed out character. It’s honestly disgusting and makes me happy that so many of those same fans are ultimately really bitter about the conclusion of the series. They don’t deserve to be happy.
It seems they don't want to be happy.
To be fair, Rose as a character was entirely pointless. However, the actress did not deserve the utterly vile and racist bullshit that got thrown her way. No actor is ever to blame for an incompetant writer or director.
Admittedly I haven’t seen TLJ for quite some time, but am I the only one who thought Rose was just... okay? Like, I don’t remember thinking she was the horrible plague on the series Facebook was making her out to be.
It probably didn’t help that she was almost entirely relegated to the most maligned side plot in the series and the ultimate culmination of that side plot was Finn nearly getting everyone killed because he suddenly became super gullible.
Lot of people think if she wasn’t around that side plot wouldn’t have been in there, or it would have been a better buddy cop adventure with Finn and Poe.
Basically, people blaming the character for bad writing and missed opportunities.
So on my end, I blame the bad writing and missed opportunities, but that's just it, I don't like Rose because the character is a horribly written mess, who in that movie causes the second time that a character nearly gets everyone killed, I think the idea behind Finn is a great concept, I think Rey potentially works really well and makes an interesting story, but she just doesn't, she never has a consistent character, a theme of sorts in these movies, for all characters, nobody is a real antagonist, because that requires them to be an obstacle to something and none of them manage to be so much as a speed bump in the plot, with the exception of Rose trying to get everyone killed in TLJ, Finn trying to get everyone killed in TLJ, I mean I guess the theme is failure, so it kinda makes sense that the movie is such a failure in screen writing, and everyone fails, at everything, except Rey who by her very presence in the story manages to keep the people around her from failing, dispite seeming to have no bearing on the plot except to lift some rocks
I really don't understand how somebody could look at kylo and rey and say "yes those two are gonna end up together ". The ending of Rise of Skywalker didn't sit so bad with me but then again I saw the Kylo parts less as "redem the bad guy" and more as "Ben realizes he has been a fucking tool and that dying to save the galaxy is the only way he can do something good with his life".
I now see I was giving the writers of SW too much credit
I actually giggled in the theater when Kylo Ren took off his helmet for the first time. He was introduced as a proxy for Darth Vader, was portrayed as ominous, powerful, and menacing...but in actuality it's just some white boy with poofy hair who has never touched a skin care regimen in his entire life. Then he threw a Big Boy Tantrum. Oh yes, so menacing, so seductive /s
It's nice to see you didn't blame the straight guys for Reylo - this abomination of an arc is on the fangirls.
Give them a few minutes, straight men will fuck something up
@@LilianOrchard Yeah, we're gonna have to reschedule that, we're still busy fucking other shit up.
HellebrandCuriosity you’re not wrong
I blame straight guys for Stormpilot not being a thing.
@@LilianOrchard hey i thought most of us were finnrey ppl. the reylo ending came completely out of nowhere
FinnRey would have been better. Atleast the characters actually cared about each other. Though I do admit it would have come out of nowhere, atleast the two would been in a healty relationship.
And all the biracial couple's cosplay I've seen of those two feel betrayed...
Along with also showing how a former soldier that was taught to do nothing but kill could find his own happiness and experience love along with them working well together
@@TheDoggoPearl It would’ve been beautiful.
@@anidiotsandwich1524 Seriously I assumed that they were setting the groundwork for them as a couple in TFA. Then the other two movies happened...
@@eauxkei702 You were right though; it was getting set in TFA. It was Disney's decision to abandon that ship following ep 7, since they didn't want an onscreen romantic relationship of a black man and white woman in Star Wars. Then we got... toxic abusive garbage instead.
If my son Luke 'there's still good in Vader' Skywalker thought Kylo Ren needed to die then he needed to die. I trust his judgement.
Valid
"My dad has more good in him than my nephew. Deal with it."
@@autobotstarscream765 'Leia your son is worse than our dad' 'look just cause I'm sad about it doesn't mean I don't know that' there I fixed it
Even his mother said he was gone and irredeemable in TLJ. His own mother. Kylo needs to die. Hell, the Rise of Skywalker flat out has to pull Harrison Ford back, how they got him back I don't know how, probably a bribe, and get him to look right at you, the viewer, and say "if I can forgive him for killing me, surely you can too." Yeah, thanks JJ.
I still think that was an out of character moment for him, but I still hate Kylo Ren so fuck em.
Like the actor tho, he funny.
Thank you for pointing out the Leia-killing-Jabba thing; so many people get fixated on her outfit, and overlook the fact that she single-handedly strangled a 2-ton warlord to death.
Excellent and poignant work (as ever), Lily. And on a side note... oh em gee, "shitpost with feet".
In my entreprise's cafeteria, we have a fridge with papers and post-it notes on it. Soon after Rise of Skywalker's release, I had the unpleasant surprise to see "Rey + Kylo" written inside a heart on one of these. I took a pen and rewrote it as "Rey + Kylo = ZERO". Very satisfying.
Did you make someone cry?
You did god's work mate
@@minimariih14 I suppose no. No one knows who the mysterious Reylo is or if the person was even serious. Conversations about Star Wars IX in my office could be summoned as "Did someone see it?" "Yes" "How was it?" "Whitout much interest" "Okay, thanks for saving me 10 euros"
As someone who just escaped an emotionally abusive relationship where the guy and his parents expected me to just magically fix all his self-loathing, depression, and impulse control problems, and then guilt tripped and gaslighted me whenever I tried to protest being a crutch for his emotional shortcomings and bad habits, thank you. I’ve been in a bad, conflicted space recently, his And his parents mind games still plaguing me and trying to make me think that maybe I was wrong to leave him, but watching this video just confirmed I did the right thing. Just because someone doesn’t leave bruises on your body doesn’t mean they can’t bruise your soul. Yeah, we all have our demons. But we are each responsible for dealing with them like mature adults. It is not fair for anyone to expect another person to fix it for you.
So thank you, Lily. Thank you so much.
"...Back in the 80s Leia killed her abuser, and here in darkest timeline 1992 Jasmine was forced to kiss hers."
Oh, and they BOTH get a gold bikini. How horrible.
And ironic as well. The latter tried to distract the villain for the hero to get the item, but even that didn’t last long.
Don’t worry, Jasmine already thought that she did something she is going to hate and still does.
It's shipping culture that makes me wonder what weird ass ships would crop up if I ever published my stories...
They would.
"Kylo Ren is like if someone gave Elliot Rodger a light saber"
I laughed hard enough to wake up the entire building. Thanks for that one.
I've always said if for some godforsaken reason there were to be an Elliot Rodger biopic, Adam Driver would be the perfect casting.
I think he could play a very convincing psychopath or serial killer. IMO he did a solid job of selling Kylo as an unstable and creepy individual with his mannerisms and the delivery of his lines. The dead, almost monotone expression/tone he had at times made me really think this is not someone you'd want to encounter in a dark alleyway.
I actually liked the character most when the story didn't try to push him as a "sympathetic" woobie, and just allowed him to be a creepy villain that you love to hate. For example, in TFA I was really pissed/gutted after he killed Han and it was almost cathartic to watch him get slashed up and humiliated later on.
This trilogy lost me once it tried to push the blame off on the OT characters and make it seem like Kylo was a misunderstood boy who just needs a woman to fix him.
one thing to note about the joker movie and that whole bit, several mainstream media writers were upset that nobody went on a shooting spree after they spent 4 months saying it would happen
I have an urge to write a Star Wars story with gay princesses.
Pycrete As a hammy Sith once said: Do it!
Pycrete Knowing Disney, they’ll do it, but somehow, they butcher it *BADLY!*
I wanted Rey/Finn/Poe. Either as a found family or a polycule.
Polycule representation? 👀
Sorry for the double comment but another thing that makes me supremely uncomfortable about the woobifying of Keylo is the fact that his character is pretty easily coded as being a neo-näzi. (Obsessed with a previous dictatorship due to its show of power as a direct cause of his own parental issues and bringing that mentality back but still being a screaming tantrum throwing man baby when things don’t go his way while still being just as damaging and dangerous as näzi 1.0 on those he oppresses).
I mean this was established in the FIRST. MOVIE. and my thinking since that movie aired is “why the fuck are you guys trying to woobify the entitled neo-näzi???”
Ngl, I was fully ready to fight you on the point of Kylo being a shit character, but I realized I really don't have anything from the movies themselves to defend him with. I think a big problem is that literally everyone can figure out how to make Kylo a better character and how to redeem him better, and they confuse their own headcanons for what was present in the movies. I'd love to rewrite the sequel trilogy to make Kylo an actually redeemable character, but as he is, he's a shitty character with a terrible arc.
Me and my fiance are rewriting the Sequel Trilogy so that Rey and her Sith Wife fight the First Order and Kylo Ren gets thrown into a garbage disposal.
Rey and her Sith Wife are in the thumbnail of this video
@@LilianOrchard Please tell me someone calls Kylo a shitpost with feet in the rewrite?
@@LilianOrchard I am so ready for this.
@@LilianOrchard where? i need that...it sounds awesome
@@LilianOrchard Might be the one fanfic I'm down to read.
reminder that jenny nicholson claimed that john boyega called reylos inbreds based off of an edited screenshot. and even after countless people informed her that it was fake, including being told by the person who made the edit, jenny has not taken down the tweet or addressed it at all and is instead leaving up the racist slander for all to see. oh, and those people who informed her the screenshot was fake? she blocked them :)
Poe and Finn deserve better, I still believe that they should have got together and although it didn't happen I still really like their chemistry romantic or platonic, but I wish it was romantic I just want see some cute space gays ok?
Pastel Galaxy Studio In an interview with Variety, JJ Abrams said he was “hinting” (sure because the lady with a helmet in TRS that Poe had a previous relationship and attempted continuation said relationship doesn’t contradict this [I’m aware bi, pan, etc. exist but he did specifically say GAY]) that Poe and Finn ARE gay, they just aren’t attracted to each other. So at least there’s a positive male friendship that shows they have a close relationship without being attracted to each other??? (I’m sorry I’m really trying to be positive here)
@@skyeperez8305 yeah I see where you're coming from, I just prefer my space gays
@@JesseGolo yeah but can't deny that was actual chemistry there, it's one thing two characters together like kylo and Rey of course it's annoying. But it's not if the two characters fit together
@@JesseGolo yeah I see where you're coming from, but it would have been a cool idea and a good chance of diversity
Unfortunately representation like that will forever be limited to background "blink and you'll miss it" moments because Disney takes it up the ass from China, and China censors literally everything they don't like. In ROS they had to censor the scene with the two background lesbians in China. Disney will never make push that stuff with main characters cause then that means China will censor most of, if not all of the movie. Unfortunately, companies like Disney don't give a fuck about representation. They give us small tastes so we'll give them money and so that it can be censored in China and get a shit ton more money. It's horrible and disgusting and I wish more people would realize this and point it out.
I personally like Kylo Ren, but I agree that the "redemption" was just stupid to say the least. And the way he talks to Rey always cringe me out, it just so creepy. 🤢
Ditto especially since in jj 1st movie story it was hinted she was going to be his cousin
I him better as a villain than a hero. He was terrible as a hero as villian. He was cool
@@mollymcmurtrie8037 I wanted him to realize his full potential as a Sith Lord. Something that Vader could never do because of his injuries and something that Luke outright rejected to stay on the path of a Jedi.
We didn’t get that due to EP 8 killing off Snoke and EP 9 trying to pick up the pieces.
Hvala. Simply thanks. I felt the relationship simply couldn't go there, it ignores way too much of what Kylo did.
But from the start it saw JJ would pander hard to the fans, so I expected it. Didn't want it, hoped it wouldn't do it, but he did.
What a bummer. What a clustefruck. What a way to present a toxic relationship in the worst way possible.
Felt something was wrong, but your presentation provided clarity.
Ponovo, hvala.
Actually, JJ pushed really hard not to let Reylo happen and wrote almost a completely different script, and may even have listened to the actors’ requests of canonizing FinnPoe. Disney as the corporation was the one who rejected him and said they had to “make it more appealing for a general audience”, and thus rewrote his script.
@@baydiac if that's true, good for him. Didn't leave that impression when they talked with the actors and him.
If I remember correctly, didn't Daisy Ridley gave him a glare when they were talking ships and she said that FinnPoe was better?
I could be wrong.
It reminds me of SasuSaku from Naruto
He berates her, attempts to murder her multiple times, absolutely could give no shits about her existence, but everyone wants them together for some reason. Even the writer himself has gone in record to say that even he thinks the pairing is dumb and contrived, but the fans wanted it so it had to happen.
fandom: more reylo!
studio: 👌
me: *vomits*
enemies to lovers only works if the villain isn’t an unbearable irredeemable scumbag
Ya it kind of helps if they didn’t initiate genocide.
As a child I insisted that Snape was a bad guy. I mean I was a child and that wasn't based on anything more than "he's a big meanie to Hermione". But as I rewatched and reread the books and movies as a tween, I still thought he was a bad person but all the fandom and people I knew beat me down with "owo so tragic. He loved her why are you so judgemental" now I'm an adult and I'll scream SNAPE'S AN ABUSIVE TWAT AND JK ROWLING IS A TERF from the rooftops
Why can't people just accept he's kinda a bad person. That doesn't make him a worse character.
Wow. Just... wow. Lily, I applaud you.
Hero-villain ships just don't work in the show proper. The people baying for Zuko and Katara to get together in Avatar were completely ignoring the fact that Katara spent the first half of Zuko's time with the squad utterly despising him and only warming up to him after he helped her get closure against the man who killed her mother. And also a Fire Nation soldier killed her mom.
I think this quote from Eldena Doubleca5t's video on RWBY ships regarding people who ship Ruby/Cinder sums it up best: "You don't actually want (protagonist name) and (antagonist name) to get together, you just want a hot evil lady in six-inch heels to step on you."
@Thaddeus Boyns Even though I have been a fan of Zutara for a long while, it actually took me until after Katara forgave Zuko for me to see potential in them as a couple (plus I admit to liking them as a couple aesthetically). I just couldn't bring myself to ship them together because of all that happened between Zuko and the Gaang before Season 3 rolled around. It just wouldn't have felt right to me.
i've been in the anti reylo community since before TLJ came out, and reylo shippers have only gotten worse over time. at first they fetishized incest, and now they fetishize... non-consensual pregnancy, i guess? yikes.
“And gay woman saying I love you to one another” Me too, me too😂😂
Also I want to mention that I also found it kind of... Well racist that Rey ended up kissing Kylo, but her and Finn remain just friends and that Rose's feelings for Finn were never mentioned. Like that's how much whites have to be paired together - abusive white dudes over wholesome MoC. Yikes.
I kinda feel like you don't understand what racism is...
It isn't racist that 2 characters you wanted to get together didn't get together.
If anything, it just seems like you're using the term "racist" as a club without considering the implications.
@@rodneydaliege8909 Exactly, and only a dunderhead would use racism as a buzzword despite the fact that humans such as ourselves are the race, what they should use instead for skin-colored people is ethnicism.
I've felt that ever since Zuko was given a great redemption arc (which was planned from the very beginning, might I add), it's now a law that every villain needs to have a redemption arc.
A toxic ship supported by fans? Sounds familiar to me.
I'm a straight guy and I have no problem with ships as long as it's not forced or heavily supported by fans that will become canon. Gay or straight, I don't care who's dating who.
I never wished for these two to be a couple. All I wanted to see were great characters, great stories, and great fights. This is something I can't stand and it's all over the place. I mean, seriously, Kylo isn't even sexy and interesting from start to finish. No offense.
You mentioned sexual tension between people right when Luke and Kylo were looking into each others eyes. The dumb part of the fanbase should have shipped for that. Was so good.
I was watching this movie in the theaters with a friend of mine, at the beginning of the scene she leaned over and whispered, "Watch them kiss and then he dies." The most I ever do when I'm mad is clench my jaw, but when they kissed I threw my coat and knocked pop corn all over our seats and audibly yelled "Dang it!" It was just so stupid, personally I hadn't seen any chemistry, between Kylo and Rey, and although I didn't remember the last two movies I still remembered that he was just so scummy and killed Han Solo ( and all of the things he does in the this movie). Why would anyone ship them?
So going into this, my perspective is coming from someone who hasn’t seen the movies.
But one thing I thought of, and hear me out on this.
Kylo could have been a redeemable character, if he didn’t do such Evil things, and actually LEARNED that what he was doing, how he was acting, was wrong. If, say, it was Snoke who ordered the planet killer fired, if his father died because Kylo ordered stormtroopers to fire rather than stabbing his father through the heart.
But with all that said..... I agree with you. The way they ‘redeemed’ him in the movies was shit, and it makes me ashamed of the Star Wars Fandom.
imo, there's a level of redemption possible for any character based on their past actions. the more villainous and heinous the act, the less they can be redeemed. so, outright murders and predators can never be truly redeemed fully, but they can learn the error of their ways and at least stop doing heinous, evil shit. they'll forever be stuck in the grey area between good and bad, but they can be less bad. there is a limit though, some characters can not be redeemed at all, and trying to do so is the equivalent of beating your head against a diamond wall
gruffen4 Ahaha. *Diamond* wall. I see what you did there.
@@baydiac if you're implying a connection to SU, i'm gonna bum you out and just say i was looking for something harder than brick. it's not wrong though
I watched the Film Theory video on Star Wars where he theorized Rey and Kylo Ren were siblings before I watched the movies, meaning I subconsciously assumed they were when I did watch the movies, so Reylo is even creepier and more problematic to me.
A theory says that Palpatine is Anakin's dad, so there you are
I knew the fandom was bad rn but jesus.also I'm not the only that hates the fact the first order is just a recolor of the empire.
I think the issue isn't as much that the First Order is a recolor of the Empire, I mean they're basically what would happen if neonazis would get control of a state, so it's what they're meant to be. But the issue is that TFA destroys the New Republic so that the heroes can be the underdog again and essentially copying the OT instead of actually having in interesting story of a galactic war between two powers on equal footing.
E.L. James presents "50 Shades of Rey"
"It wasn't Luke's flashback, it was *this* scene"
And then an ad for blue jeans played and I almost peed my pants
When I went to go see the movie and it got to the bit where Rey and Kylo kiss, just behind me was a grown man whispering to his mother excitedly 'Reylo!' and sounded oh so smug while doing it. Then once the little shit died the man gave a devastated whispered 'noooo' and let me tell you that was a delicious bit of shadenfreude, and for that I give the movie 10/10 just for letting me experience that.
I've always found this ship loathsome for a multitude of reasons. Also, as someone who suffered from physical and mental abuse for years, I appreciate that you always reiterate the ugly reality of abuse in your videos vs. how people romanticize it in stories.
You want to have Kylo Ren be a good villain Disney? Here’s how you do it. Anyone that says redemption is immediately fired, and have George Lucas repeatedly hit them with a tennis racket while screaming, “What were you thinking?” As for the character himself...
Kylo Ren had the potential for a great parallel with Vader in the sense of “What if Anakin beat Obiwan on Mustafar? What if he hadn’t become horribly maimed and was able to reach his full potential?” Kylo already has a good antithetical theme with Anakin: Anakin is a Jedi who wants to do what’s right, but struggles with the dark, and Kylo is dark Jedi who struggles with the light. What they should have done if they wanted to keep Kylo as a parallel to Vader (RotS Anakin) was follow that same formula to its end. Anakin struggles with the dark, but ultimately came back to the light in RotJ. Kylo should have had an arc where he considers returning to the light and “attempt” to atone for what he had done, but after realizing that he had, in fact, surpassed Vader both in terms of personal power and atrocities committed, he should have gone fully to the dark side. Give him the Anakin speech of, “I can kill my mentor, he knows it.” You had him kill Snoke in TLJ like he did, he attempts to turn Rey, but fails... and then at RoS, we see him searching for Palpatine, find him, and then Palpatine will have realized, “Hey! This is what I wanted out of Vader before Mustafar! I’ll teach this kid to be a real Sith.” This now allows us to throw away the idiocy of Rey being a Palpatine, cause god forbid we have a strong female character who learns to stand on her own two feet rather than on the shoulders of an already established character! (I see you “Mary sue!” crying incels, quit spewing shit out of your mouth, your ass is gonna start getting jealous.) Then what happens can follow similarly to what they did with RoS, but in the second act, have Kylo kill Palpatine, Palpatine’s spirit and power go into Kylo, making him the ultimate Sith. Boom! Now it’s time for the third act, and we have the ultimate Sith ready to throw down with the ultimate Jedi (all the Jedi now live within Rey)
and we get what Star Wars has always been about that Lily described in her “Space Wizard” video (insert literally every lightsaber battle in all the other movies here) Rey beats Kylo, cause Star Wars... good always beats evil, and wrap up the conclusion to the Skywalker saga the way it should have been done! The force is brought back into balance, the galaxy is saved, Rey finds a charming girl and lives happily ever after, searching for and raising the next generation of force users. I’m glad you were able to point out all of Kylos flaws and themes that Disney wanted to force on such a potentially great character. Awesome video as always.
Finn really does as well. There’s so much potential for him as a character, but instead he’s just relegated to screaming “REY!!!” Everytime something happens. Like, yeah, maybe I want a good story with an ex-storm trooper and a force sensitive nobody. She should have stayed as NOBODY.
Rey was actually going to be revealed as a Kenobi, before it got switched due to Disney mucking things up.
Fans of raylo were sending drivers wife death treats, literally the most fanatic fans who derive their their own personal image to what fandom they associate with are a bunch of low confidence individuals who never did anything to be proud of.
I laughed too hard at the ‘you’re pitiful’ clip of all things
the way tyzula comes to my mind when i watch this video
like god how is that ship so normalized
People would mad that Rey didn't have a forced baby. That one sentence say everything you need to know about the star war fandom.
To be honest, the entire trilogy deserved better. While I haven't seen the films, I've kept up with the dumpster fire. Once Kylo's origins was revealed, I figured he was either going to be related to Rey and/or they would be shipped as a way to mirror the original trilogy.
I blame Iger for not using Lucas's scripts. I blame Kennedy for choosing different directors for each film. I know they collaborated in pre-production to get a through line, but their differing styles and visions clashed in the end. I blame Abrams for his mystery box; it may have worked better if he has the whole trilogy. I blame Johnson for subverting everything, not picking up the mystery box, and most egregiously, not reshooting key scenes after Carrie Fisher's death to better service Duel of the Fates. This led to Trevorrow's script being useless with The Last Jedi as is and him leaving. Disney had to do something to win back the fans including Reylo, Palpatine, and consulting Lucas all to Frankenstein something that made could sense and profit with Fisher's passing and Luke's death.
I've never had an issue with the concept of Foe Yay, specifically Foe Romance Subtext as it can make the dynamics and interactions more interesting. It all depends on medium, the characters, the level of villainy, and the direction of the romance. Kylo's Villainous Crush can work in making him a more despised character and his Defecting for Love can be seen as him trying to make right in his mind similar to Vader tossing Palpatine, another mirror to the original and another criticism to Abrams like with The Force Awakens and his run with Star Trek. Rey reciprocating doesn't make sense beyond plot device, but Love Redeems and Death Equals Redemption.
Discussing this topic with a friend of mine today, she summed it up perfectly:
"Remember that time on the MTV awards when Michael Jackson and Lisa Marie Presley kissed? That's what Reylo feels like... millions of people cringing in unison while trying not to vomit in their own mouths."
He’s a shit post with feet...
That’s the best phrase that has ever came out of the English language
I take comfort in the fact the entire cast hates reylo too.
As for tlj, I think that was the entire point of subverting fans expectations in the first place.
Fans: who are Rey’s parents? Who’s snoke? Etc
Rian Johnson: who cares? Kylo’s the real villain here and Rey doesn’t need some lineage to be important.
I fucking hated the Reylo ship from the start.
I'm just so shocked that people wanted him to get a 'Redemption'. Especially when we only had the 1st film. He killed one of the most beloved character from the original series, who just happened to be his Father! If you told a Star Wars fan before these movies came out that the most disgusting, scary villain in the whole franchise, would Kill Han Solo & then get a 'Redemption' in the last movie plus getting to kiss the main character. They would laugh at you & tell you that's so stupid! It's just...weird. & that's 1 reason why this 'Redemption' is just the fucking worst.
Your points are usually solid and have a unique perspective. As much as some people may dislike your videos, they're neccessary. Sorry for being Cis-straight though, not much I can do about it.
You're forgiven... for now.
Kylo Ren is just a personification of "I Studied The Blade"
I studies the blade but still got beat by a walking carpet, a janitor and an orphan metal scrapper
The personal side that you address at the end is exactly why I couldn’t finish the newer trilogy
I'll never forgive the SW fandom for missing Kylo Ren's who point in TFA. He was a JOKE. He was a child, someone given too much power too quickly and Rey was the perfect opposite. A strong, tightly held together person that could easily use the Force because she knew herself so well. And them together despite her own fatherly figure relationship with Han??? No. Too far Disney.
And this is why I don't read straight fanfics
You know, you could probably make The Last Skywalker 10x better if, after the Rey and Kylo Ren kiss, she takes the opportunity to grab his lightsaber and impale him with it before breaking it, spitting on the ground and walking off.
I liked Rey a lot too but the sequel trilogy was so poorly structured and completely based on what the immediate fan reactions were at the time. As a result the characters and the "over arching" story suffered. I never understood ReyLo (god it's gross typing it) and I never will. That kiss and whole "romance" was ham-fisted and terrible. Thank you Lily for calling it out for what it is.
Honestly I can only watch Force Awakens and enjoy it, Rey is adorable with her ship nerdness, her friendship with BB8, Finn, chewie and Hans was amazing and it was leading to some amazing things with Finn possibly starting a storm trooper revolution and relationship with Poe, Rey finding family in Leia, Luke (and Hans before he died) and rebuilding the Jedi order properly. Kylo Ren being a petty bitch could've shown us a different villain in star wars (who shouldn't have been redeemed) and so many other stuff. It's disappointing how much potential this series had just from force awakens. There's a few things I like in last Jedi such as the porgs because I'm weak to cute creatures, Rose could've been interesting and help Finn on his arc to save stormtroopers, Poes trust in Leia and her parental love to Poe and Rey (the children Leia deserved but lost) and Luke. Such wasted potential
I saw this movie yesterday and literally thought "ok so has he crossed the moral event horizon Lily talks about... yes 100%." I cant fucking get away from you Lily!
Every time the Sequel Trilogy is brought up
I am a nerdy black man feel so hated and pushed aside for these same retched people
They hated the possibly of a black jedi and made sure that Reylo was not only front in center but Finn is made a joke over and over and over even when we all know he was supposed to be the main rival of Kylo Ren originally.
"darkest timeline 2019"
oh boy, we thought
Love your pfp
@@hinata1ize thank u
I gotta ask why was Rose so royally hated? Cause I liked her inclusion before they relegated her to the background.
Racism
@@LilianOrchard i would say doing dumb shit that puts everyone in danger is a good bet, but i know humanity
gruffen4 She single handedly stopped Finn from committing suicide when there was an easy non-life threatening way to do what he wanted to do, so “doing dumb shit that puts everyone in danger” is highly inaccurate to me. She’s just a flawed human like all the other characters. _(and maybe fans didn’t like her getting in the way of Finn’s ~dramatic hero death~ despite that doing it was the smart thing to do!)_
Also misogyny
Pointless character.
(Sees title of video)
This is about the whole Reylo BS, isn’t it?
(2:47 - 2:58 happens)
...Oh, HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ME! 😁
Wisdom Manari' Thanks! 😁
Happy birthday!
For all the talk about Rey being a Mary Sue, I'm surprised how little this is talked about. This is one of the most Mary Suish traits that she has, and yet people seem to ignore this
5:24 I noticed how you used pre-suit Vader. I wonder if that's specifically to show that you're not talking about the scary black suit, but the guy inside it
Thank you so much for this. This does not get talked about enough. It’s bad enough people ship them, but everything about this ship gets worse and worse.
Damn, I forget these movies are meant for kids. Why are the adults in fandoms so obsessed with ruining everything?
Rey and kylo: *kissed*
Meanwhile
Mandalorian: they kiss?😕
Nostalgia critic: uhhuh😑
Mandalorian: odd, i tought they sort of have a brother and sister relationship😐
Nostalgia critic: like any other place in this world😒
Lily the racism slide isnt even the worst instance of racism reylo stans have done. some reylo literally diagnosed john boyega with npd
If I dived into everything the video would be an hour long
Lily Orchard true, reylos are wild