HOW MUCH POWER IS THE PERFORMANCE DESIGN LS3 INTAKE REALLY WORTH? LS3 VS PD 105 & 112-FULL RESULTS!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ค. 2024
- HOW TO MAKE MORE LS3 POWER! HOW MUCH HP IS THE NEW PERFORMANCE DESIGN XS INTAKE WORTH? SHOULD I GET THE 105 OR 112-MM VERSION OF THE XS INTAKE? HOW CAN I IMPROVE THE POWER OF MY 6.2L LS3? IS ANY INTAKE BETTER THAN THE STOCK LS3 INTAKE? CAN I RUN A STOCK 90MM THROTTLE BODY WITH MY PERFORMANCE DESIGN 105MM INTAKE? DO I NEED TO UPGRADE MY THROTTLE BODY? DOES THE PERFORMANCE DESIGN XS INTAKE LOSE LOW-SPEED TORQUE? CHECK OUT THIS VIDEO WHERE I COMPARED THE STOCK LS3 INTAKE TO A PAIR OF THE NEW XS INTAKES (105 AND 112 VERSIONS) FROM PERFORMANCE DESIGNS. I ALSO COMPARED THE STOCK 90-MM THROTTLE BODY TOT HE 102MM THROTLE BODY ON THE 105-MM VERSION OF THE XS INTAKE TO SEE IF YOU CAN RETAIN THE STOCK LS3 THROTTLE BODY.
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You sure do a lot of favors for the hot rod community. Thank you!!
I'll keep testing
From what I see, factory ls intakes for the engine they are designed for have been marvels of modern science since 1997. Thank you richard for doing all the foot work and releasing this info to us.
Nice! Its a very clean install with the fuel rails inside the manifold. Im running the factory manifold on my LS 427 currently but good to see there is now a genuine worthwhile alternative.
That engine sounds effin great.
Cool to finally see an aftermarket rec-port LS manifold that works better than stock.
Keep on rockin it Richard!
Answer: Not enough to warrant the price. great test TY Richard
Great work again Richard!
Great stuff, thanks Richard! I don't believe you showed the stock vs. the smaller intake and TB curves together, only mentioning the peak differences and showing the new intake dyno curves by themselves.
Welcome back to Kentucky. Just an idea. Next time you're back in Bardstown go on a tour of heaven hill distillery or Buffalo trace in Frankfort they're really nice and fun to get some history of bourbon.
Thanks, Richard! Great test on what appears to be a nice piece of engineering! But it seems to be limited on nitrous options?!
The stealth injector/fuel rail setup is interesting.
I like it..this one might be worth investing in.
Hella sick
Dang awesome setup Richard .what was the compression with the hot stock motor lol…
Wow 270 duration on the exhaust is nuts!
Thank you for your knowledge and videos, USA 🇺🇸 USA 🇺🇸
Very nice.
I was hoping this would be done on a SBE LS3 to backup their marketing claims.
I would like to see a heads cam LS3, would it gain as we saw on the 427...?
They actually make 3 different versions of this manifold: one for a 90-101mm TB, a 103mm TB, and a 112mm TB. Prices range from $900-1000 but looks like they do include the special fuel rails required and are good for up to 20 psi of boost.
If I recall correctly, their initial tooling was wrong in terms of measurements when manufactured and came out to 101mm instead of 103mm as intended, so they are clearing those out for $100 less. They corrected the tooling problem and now the new ones are the right size. I'm honestly not sure where the 105mm measurement in this video came from because Performance Design's site shows the 103 and 112 options.
it is 103
@@ScottO84Interesting, that's good info. It looks like the 103mm is currently on backorder and I'd be inclined to save a few bucks and stick with the stock 90mm TB. That said, I'd be curious to see what the gains would look like on a stock cube/heads LS3 that only has a cam, as that's what the majority of people are running. Maybe 5-10 hp with the 90mm TB and another ~5 hp with the 112mm TB (although those cost almost as much as the manifold itself)?
@@nowayjose596 Between this test and the one American Heritage Performance did, I'm finding it much harder to believe the smaller version of this intake achieved 8-10 HP and 8-10 TQ on a completely stock LS3 engine as the company has stated for months. (However, I remain optimistic.) With this test showing 14 HP and 2 TQ gained on a heads/cam 427 and American Heritage showing less than 15 HP gain on a heads/cam 416 LS3 while losing 15 HP/20 TQ down low with the 103mm/90mm throttle body setup, I don't see how a stock LS3 could manage 8-10 of both HP and TQ.
@@ScottO84 I agree with your doubts (although I haven't seen the American Heritage test so I'll have to check it out). Someone else in the comments section on here said they were hoping to get 10+ hp more with the 90mm version but they're running a relatively mild cam (225/233 on a 114 LSA) so I said I would expect more like ~5 hp. Also hope I'm wrong and they get the 10 hp they're wanting but considering the numbers seen on these big cam strokers the math suggests much milder gains on stock cubes/smaller cams.
Nice!!
We realy need this directly tested to Fast 102 on the same motor would be very interesting.
the ls3 FAST offers no power over the stock LS3 (tested many times)
Right on
Hi Richard…. I’ve been waiting months with the anticipation of you testing the performance design LS XS intake manifold. Great video, I seen the stock LS3 intake manifold comparison with a ported LS3 intake test . I’m surprised that the ported version didn’t have any power improvements. I’m Glad I didn’t waste my time porting my stock LS3 Intake that’s sitting on my LS3 416 stroker. I also lol seen your multiple LS3 intake manifold’s test. Well I’m saving my pennies for the 112mm version. 👍
That intake only had the rod mod performed. It was not ported and did not appear to have the center stands removed.
@@ScottO84 looked ported at the throttle body area. So putting the rails in only doesn’t make sense.
@@vikenlink Richard said very minor porting only at the intake opening. Regular LS3 porting removes the upright support stands, shaves down both the upper/lower planes, and smooths out the transition to the runners. Some also port within the runners as well. It has historically been worth 6 HP to the wheels on a stock LS3 and 12-15 on a cammed setup for fully ported LS3 intakes that also have the rod mod.
@@ScottO84 That is pretty much in line with what I have seen over the years. There are a few inportant details that most miss doing the rod mod that effects flow in the corners.
I’m tardy but I’m here for the education. Thank you sir.
Please please please do a Coyote intake manifold shoot out! Honestly, just do more Coyote stuff in general, but be sure to to a gen 2 engine
Now they need to make a cathedral port version.❤
LS7 next then Cath
I know the test is not going to happen but i'd love to see how it did vs the Edelbrock cross ram on that big engine. That cross ram did amazing in your ls3 manifold test. Better hp than stock. Best torque peak number. Best average horsepower and best average torque. It is definitely more costly and complicated to make work in all applications, but man is it cool.
Don't think they make that any more?
@@richardholdener1727 you may be right. With most people not being able to control dual DBW throttle bodies and the fact they never made a drive-by cable bracket for the intake, it made it very hard for most people to consider. Not even to mention the price.
they did look cool though-but were very heavy
@@richardholdener1727 edelbrock says they are scheduled to make more soon but are currently out of stock as of 7-14-23
could you show us around the intake manifold some more ? I am still an Aluminium intake manifold type of guy.
You need to thank/credit the apprentice Brulet dyno guy (sp?) more :)
Steve Brule is no apprentice-but he was also not part of this testing-this was not done at Westech
Awesome data! Will you be doing more tests with these manifolds? Possibly on a heads/cam ls3? Maybe compared to a Hi ram? 👀
I ran a high ram on this motor too
Like to see these tested on a stock cube and stock cam 6.0 and 6.2 then add some different cams to both. Thanks Richard !
stock cam 6.0L? Why bother with other mods?
Good results and a good-looking manifold.
I reached out to Performance design a while back about using this manifold on a boosted application. However, the design doesn't allow/support the use of big return style fuel systems, if it did, I would make the transition from the LS3 manifold to PD manifold. I can always add more boost though.... kind off haha :)
Hey Richard aweshome work. Although my question to you is do you know anyone that has ever done an enlarged cam modification to small block chevy. i am, speaking about the diameter here. The 2" camshafts, i mean the larger 60mm and up + size mm cams etc. i am, is going to attempt to modify the small block chevy GEN 1 for the largest cam diameter or whatever shall fit. Consider this a stock block extreme modification! LoL! Thanks all for any responses.
race motors have run bigger cam tunnels and cores-not sure why you need it for anything but all out
@@richardholdener1727 i am need it for more area under the curve without smashing my valvetrain to smitherines. Endurance Street engine extreme. Running huge roller lifters as well. Extreme ramp rates with less valve spring, more control over exact shape of cam etc. 2:1 rocker ratio etc. Thanks for reply richard. 🙂
check with the block manufacturers to see if they have altered cam tunnel versions avail
@@richardholdener1727 ok. shall do. thanks.
Interesting results. I would not expect changing throttle bodies (even if it were necessary for more flow) to show consistent gains from 3000-7000 rpm. That suggests that something else is at play. Whether its more laminar flow matching the throttle body to the inlet as Rich suggested (step changes in any direction cause a pressure change and possibly turbulence), or something else like the bigger opening getting better distribution in the manifold, I don't know. Would be curious if the guys at PD have any ideas based on their CFD models.
WAIT, RICHARD, HOW DID IT DO WITH THE BIG BELL-MOUTH ON THE INTAKE (and they should have still ducted air to NEAR it to try to be as consistent as possible.)
I ask because with only an upgrade of the intake horn area, one big blower engine got better output with no other modifications.
it made no difference-covered that in the live feed today
I was JUST looking at this intake... Watching with baited breath
What was the cr on that thing?
Any chance they are going to make an LS7 head version? Love to see how it compares to the MSD.
that is next
The fact that, at the end, all the curves were identical besides the gains, it just proves it's well designed & consistent. I would like to see these intakes vs the MSD & FAST on the same engine to see the differences in the curves. I know it's time-consuming to do all these tests, but it's why we subscribe!
FAST CHANGES NOTHING COMPARED TO THE STOCK LS3, MSD DOES NOT MAKE A LS3 INTAKE
@richardholdener1727 Well I guess that settles it. This is the kink of the hill so far when it comes to actual street intakes for rec ports. Thank you Sir.
Right now it looks like a good piece
@richardholdener1727 yes my Fast 102 even port matched to the heads with a little.smoothing of the bell mouth followed the LS3 Factory manifold. But the Fast painted looks great. Still would be cool to see Fast 102 vs PD for fun.
Selfishly, I'm really curious to see what this will do on a more typical cam/bolt ons 6.2. It's encouraging that it made this type of power on a big combo. I suppose it's not a bad thing that GM made the heads/intake manifold combo so good from the factory, but it sure makes it hard to justify the cost of swapping that stuff out on a 6.2 build. If the HP/$ is there on a SBE combo, this will be a winner. GM just didn't hide many horses in the stock stuff.
You could do some math and divide the size of a stock LS3 by the size of this engine and divide your expected power output by the power output of this engine and then multiply the gains from this manifold on this engine by that factor. I'm going to guess with the stock LS3 cylinder heads the gains are minimal
the math doesn't work the way you want it to, dyno is best
@@richardholdener1727 do a video where you compare the results of the math I just mentioned to real dyno results and see how far off it is. I bet its within a few percent. You could even use your existing data.
Run a stock ly6 with one of your favorite camshafts, then run a 408 ly6 with the same top end. 364 is 89% of 408. See how close the horsepower of the 364 is to 89% of the horsepower of the 408. Maybe compare average power as well.
I mean it looks clean, but I don't like the injectors/rails inside the intake
Could you make a video on 02 sensors and PVC system?
what is your question about those
But would you find this intake mani worth the buy over porting/rod mod on a stock intake for essentially a stock LS3?
see the rod mod test-you can decide
Do you plan on testing the LT head swap? I’ve got the parts to do the swap, just haven’t done it yet.
yes
You would have gotten more on the stock size with a Soler or Mamo ported throttle body
Having the injectors, harness, fuel rails inside the PD intake, can it take boost? I'm guessing no.
YES-20 PSI
How long are those runners?
Hard to beat factory performance parts
Would it be fair too expect larger gains under boost when you are tryimg too stuff 2-3x the air through the TB?
yes
The company claims the more power that’s made the better the intake performs which is a wild claim to make and I’m VERY INTERESTED to see if that’s true somehow
What was the torque output on the 105 (supposed to be 103?) with the 102mm throttle body? HP came in at 686, but you skipped over the torque.
691 hp was the 112 mm version
@@richardholdener1727 You're quick! I had the wrong number and had to edit it.
torque was 605
I would like to see this intake compared to the MSD atomic
MSD does not make an atomic for the LS3
@richardholdener1727 ah yes...I forgot. I meant more for the Ls7 top ends, if they are going to have one of these intakes for those too.
Awesome @richardholdener1727 Thanks so much! I picked up 1 of the 101mm versions (-$100) I'm feeling pretty confident now that I should be able to pick-up a good solid 10+ HP with my Ported 95MM TB, 260 AFR heads, 225/233 .617- .623" 114 lsa , 11.4>:1 cr compared to my homemade rod modded LS3 intake
I'd be very curious to see how much hp you actually do pick up bc my assumption would be that it's the relatively mild cam you're running that is more of a "restriction" on your combo than the intake (I'm sure I'm not pointing out anything you don't already know in that regard). So I would guess it would be closer to ~5 hp but I'd be happy to be wrong about that.
@@nowayjose596 you're probably correct! I thought if the 103 with the 90mm.tb picked up 15hp that I would pick up 2/3rds of that 🤔🤔. Anyways if I only get 5 hp i feel it will be a gain from roughly from 4600 to 6800 rpm! altho I might get a bigger improvement as my version of of a mod rod could be worse than a stock LS3 intake
@@grpweld I only say that bc you're down ~50 cubic inches AND a lot of cam compared to this test engine. But apparently Performance Design said they've seen gains of 8-10 hp on a stock LS3 (although this has yet to be independently tested) so we'll see 🤷♂️
@@nowayjose596 true that! But that cam would be better in a HI-RAM or something that works well in higher rpm's that revs to 8K or so I think
@@grpweld Oh the cam in this test is HUGE. For your combo something more along the lines of 23X/24X on a 113 LSA would pick up ~20 hp over your current cam and probably get you a few more ponies out of that Performance Design intake, as well. Of course the trade off would be some idle quality/drivability depending on the tune.
So… like an absolute MAX of 10 WHP on an actual stock displacement LS3 engine. Got it. Not worth the money. Thanks.
How much does it cost over factor one. Is it worth the money?
Cost less than Fast
That’s crazy that it’s taken this long for someone to beat the stock intake.
Pretty sure the edelbrock cross ram beat the stocker long ago
@@bcbloc02 fair enough. Huge though with twin throttles so you can’t use stock harnesses and ECUs. At least not economically
@@shannonsisk very true. That aluminum beauty from edelbrock is a pretty pricey piece by itself
What are the centerline lengths of the different runners?
261-281mm
How does it compare to a FAST?
a FAST LS3 adds very little power-This is better and costs less
Soooo.... when's the boosted test coming?!
does the same thing
but how much boost can they handle??
25+ psi
But the velocity of the air is hurting power! 😂
Why haven't you been live for awhile?
I was in Ohio and Kentucky
@@richardholdener1727 You should have stopped by young engine builder @lykinsmotorsports he's in Kentucky IIRC.
wonder what the cost is.
less than a FAST
@richardholdener1727 thank you. always lookin for more POWA!!!
$899
Not too terrible
Not much juice in that squeeze...I'd put the money into something else
They call it….. “the muffin top” 😅
I am not impressed. It took a 427, heads, a fairly nasty cam, bumped compression and an oversized 112MM TB to show a real gain at all. Thats not impressive, sorry. Good test though. This combination would obviously stack the deck in this manifolds favor and maximize any result.
I FIND IT FUNNY HOW PEOPLE CAN EXTRAPOLATE AND SPECULATE OTHER OUTCOMES (OBVIOUSLY DESIRED ONES) FROM 1 TEST
@@richardholdener1727 The outcome was as expected. It is a built 427, and it is a test of the stock intake w/ stock TB vs an aftermarket manifold with shorter than OEM runners and a Monster TB. I expected the LS-3 to lose; however, I expected to see at least a gain of 38-40 hp and 25-30 foot pounds of torque out of a combination like this. It's like using a stick of Dynamite to kill a fly!
Am I missing something?? This is supposed to be an LS3 intake manifold test/comparison, but you have a 427 CID engine on the dyno! Who in the real world puts LS3 heads on an LS7 427 block??? How about performing this same test with a stock 6.2 liter LS3 so we can compare apples to apples? Surely you have a stock displacement LS3 around to test on! The bigger cam, modified heads and headers is great, but a 427 CID is ridicules in my opinion!
Funny you ask because I’m doing exactly that, I know it’s leaving lots of power on the table but I don’t want to spend even more money on ls7 heads on top of the valve issue they are infamous for.
Pretty impressive but it looks horrible. I would sacrifice the power to have the stock ls3 under the hood.
This looks better than stock
That cam box said nitrous,it needs nitrous now please and thankyou
every cam is a nitrous cam
@richardholdener1727 that's correct,but its presented on the cam box,it's definitely true lol
That engine is screaming for a shorter runner intake with a cam that big
check out the next video-Hi Ram, Pro Flow...then BTR intakes inbound
@@richardholdener1727 sweet ! Be cool to see a l.o.d intake on that engine.
That is the ugliest ls3 manifold I've seen, looks like someone left there airline luggage in the engine bay 😂
you spelled awesome wrong
I did? 😂
it looks nice..
I gotta say the constant switching every 3-5 seconds between stills of the engine and the curve I’m trying to study is very aggravating.
search pause
@@richardholdener1727 haha
@Tommy-B, you crying that you have a hard time “studying” the awesome, *free* information that Richard gives us is “very aggravating” Maybe you should “study” the *pause* button 🤣
You have an unhealthy obsession with low end torque. If you are going WOT at 2500 you are doing it wrong.
What a dumb comment. You've clearly never towed anything.
It affects alot in daily driving of the car as not everyone here us going to be making a trailer hauled drag or track attack car revving at 5.5k 90% of the time.
Also greatly influences the cam and stall converter combination you end up getting.