French 8mm Lebel Flashpaper Gallery Cartridges
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Did you know that the French army had soldiers load 8mm Lebel reduced power gallery cartridges powered by magician's flashpaper? Let The Chap tell you all about them!
Extra keywords:
8x50 berthier flash paper
"Ladies of negotiable affection." Truly a gentleman.
I spy a Terry Pratchett reader.
So stolen 😄
Living proof that no internet video cannot be made better by having a cat in it!
The chap is of course a full gentlemen.
Nicely done. My only word of warning would be to ensure the bore is clear once you are done. Enjoy your reduced cartridges!
One tends to check the bore if one suspects nothing came out when it went bang 😉
I have just produced and shot my first 6 rounds ( 1 sighter + 5 to score) using my Schmidt Rubin 1896/11 and a .307" ball - 4 in the 10 cm and 1 in the 5 cm ring at 15 mtrs. What a joyous 10 minutes. Thank's for the heads up on this Chap, you'll get an OBE in the post.
Merveilleuse vidéo ! merci beaucoup … respectueusement de France.
Philippe Le Gros Piaf Merci 😅 j’espère que ça peut être utile!
@@thebotrchap C'est bien sur très utile ! encore merci à vos anciens … Omaha la sanglante
This has been an especially rewarding video to watch; I have used historical gallery loads for US Rifle Model 1873, And now Thanks to the Chap, will begin work on historical gallery loads for My Lebel. Thankyou sir!
I like your channel.
As an American, I can learn a lot from you.
I'm pretty knowledgeable when it comes to cartridge handguns from the late 1890's onward (including those from all over Europe, South America, and the USA). I'm familiar with most American military (small arms) from our Civil War up to the present day and age.
My current inventory consists of a couple lever action Winchesters, a bolt action Savage, an AR-15, several 12 gauge shotguns, an M1 Carbine, plus a dozen and a half or more various other handguns.
Currently I have a Beretta, a couple S&W's, a couple Ruger .357 mag/.38 special revolvers, a few Colt 1911's (both 5"& 4.25" length barrels), a couple A.Uberti replicas of the 1873 Colt Single Action Army revolver, a couple black powder A. Uberti/Colt replica revolvers, and various other .32acp/7.65mm × 17mmSR Browning, .25acp × 6.35mm × 16mmSR Browning, and .22LR pistols).
There are so many different semi-auto pistols/rifles, revolvers (single & double action), bolt action rifles, lever action rifles, etc. throughout history that the more I learn, the more I run into additional firearms I know nothing about.
Thank you for making these videos. You are very good at keeping things interesting. I have yet to see a boring video from you.
You have definitely got happier on screen. This is great
That's awesome, I fancy giving these a crack, thanks for the introduction to gallery rounds!
I'm one of those idiots that double charged a gallery load. Destroyed a rifle. Now I use Trail Boss for reduced loads.
😢😢😢
Just so I'm clear why it's so bad, it's because you're using "pistol powder" which burns really fast. And you never want a large amount of that powder in any chamber.
Treblaine especially rifles and carbines that aren't designed for pistol powders
Far out, it's got me hooked.
Thanks for addressing the loose powder issue
Just tried my first one in the back woods. While not ear ringing the Colibri Rounds for 22 are far more quiet, I would also say SeeBee rounds are as well. This however, is a good way to train with your particular rifle with zero recoil and less noise, good for youngsters I would say.
I have used CB cartridges in a .22lr for short range practice. They are surprisingly effective at 100m with unsurprising drop at that range.
I follow the Austro-Hungarian " Conus" system, for both 8x50Rand 8x56R cartridges ( M95 and M95/30 Rifles) using Hornady .330" RoundBall, matches Barrel Groove Diameter.
I use Pistol powder, and to ensure good ignition, point rifle upwards to settle powder to bottom of case, then lower rifle slowly to horizontal to fire. In my 30m Underground Range, excellent Practice.
Italy also had a Reloadable Short Range cartridge, as well as an intermediate Pre- loaded Rifle Cartridge ( Magistri type).
As to the Touch Paper (Collodion in Original,) one can make one's own by soaking tissue paper in a strong solution of Potassium Nitrate, allowing it to dry flat, then fold up the stiffened paper to fit into the cartridge case.
A bit weaker than Collodion, which was a derivative in Film form of Nitro-Cellulose.
( Also used in Flammable Nitrate Photographic Film, for many years used
as a source of Propellant in Khyber Pass Ammo...chopped old movie films.
Doc AV
Nice video. I use cal 30 pellets in my Gras rifle and primer only. I shot inside my apartment so I dont want to make to much noise, otherwice I might have used flashpaper also.
Rune Rebel 30 cal in a Gras? I would expect something around 44 cal.
Yes its a single shot Gras chambered in 7,62 Nagant. I have never seen it in that caliber before. I have a video of it on my channel :-) @@thebotrchap
Yes. Here is a link to my video where I shot itth-cam.com/video/9ZfT79k88DY/w-d-xo.html @@thebotrchap
Rune Rebel Aha ok now it makes sense. I also have a Francotte produced 2/3 scale Gras rifle that fires a 2/3 scale bottlenecked Gras cartridge which comes out at 7,5mm, mine does have the bayonet lug. I shoot it using this flash paper trick too.
Thats nice. Is it a cadet rifle maybe? Since mine dont have the bayonet lug I was thinking that it might have been for export or for the civilan market.@@thebotrchap
"Ladies of negotiable affection" - what a dandy phrase! Very quiet compared to smokeless powder
I got some modern .38/.357 plastic cases and plastic 'bullets', they only have a primer though, no powder....
But I've shot some very short .22's marked with an acorn, that were advertised as gallery-loads. Quite fun.
Doc Gonzo CB Caps.
Remember that brand when I had my 9mm garden gun. It's a well known German brand but I am dammed if I can remember it's name
Considering what flash paper is and how simple the process of nitrification of that is - it just a question of getting the sulfuric acid and nitric acid. With that sourced you can nitrite cigarette rolling paper and drive the entire thing a bit further by testing the different types and brands out there. Just do the process outdoors and wear our PSA.
Pretty cool, any squib loads using this flash paper ? thanks :) good video........
MegaBait56 Not with all the .30 cal stuff, it works great. As I alluded to, I tried a few .44 cal loads through my Früwirth carbine but they got stuck halfway even in the relatively short barrel and I don’t think it’s safe to ram the case full of flash paper to up the pressure (let alone expensive).
I love magic.
The fact that the bolt handle moves while firing gallery rounds unnerves me greatly.
Kitty seemed very interested in what the Chap was saying. 🐱🐱🐱
Little Jenny She is indeed a very dignified educated lady.
Yeah I’m going to have to give that a go. Seems like a great way to have some fun. The easy reloading would be nice for me as I don’t have any reloading equipment yet.
I apologize Sir the "Frankenrife" is bolt gun. Agin apologies from Smyrna Tennessee, USA.
I think I'm going to try this with my Model 92 Rossi. Something about a .357 lever gun shooting gallery loads just feels right. Also nitrocellulose is pretty easy to make at home, so long as you respect the process and the chemicals. Not saying you should do it, just that it's possible.
Filler's for black powder cartridges only! The bloke says so!
"women of negotable affections" lol
Ladies, dear chap, ladies.
Alors, sais le chap chat!
What breed is that magnificent cat? :)
*Bloke on the Range:* Will we see a video about Flobert guns and cartridges?
Christopher Noel There’s not much to say about the cartridges nor the guns. They are super basic.
Well done Chappy, these little bangers have quite the snap. In power would they close to a 9mm.
If by 9mm you mean 9mm Flobert (aka 9mm Garden Gun) then yes... If you mean 9x19mm, noooooooooooo, not by a long way.
Great information. Lovely battle cat.
I am interested in what I can kill with such loads relative to critters in a quiet manner. I see one can order flash paper and it is shipped wet. I will first look locally and see what the magic and novelty shops have.
Europe there are small bore garden guns that people use; in the USA we use .22's and .38's with bird shot for the same tasks. This might offer other options.
As others have mentioned it would might work ok in a .38 special/.357 magnum cases too and I have a bag of triple O buckshot that is about .36 caliber in the american system. The 9x19 case I am not sure about with flash paper as to how it would react stuffed tightly in such a small volume.
To be honest, I'd go with conventional "cat's sneeze" loads (without a filler! You shouldn't ever need fillers, but they're downright dangerous with cat's sneeze loads) with lightweight lead pistol-ish bullets. Far cheaper and easier than flash paper. There's a bunch of Ed Harris articles on light-load cast bullets that I stand behind entirely.
Not to Loud? Did not notice hearing concerns?
Similar concept modern police training rounds
le chat de Chap
Chap chat? :-)
Similar concept to the 223 REM kit in the US that uses 209 primers and airgun pellets.
fun des The same exists here for the SiG550 with steel cases and standard or magnum primers. I’ve shown it in a previous vid.
That looks lots of fun. Out of interest what sort of residue does the flaps paper leave in the bore?
You basically just get primer residue, the flash paper burns extremely clean.
Useful and thought provoking old Chap. Thank you.
I would be cautious about using far too much flash paper. It is essentially gun cotton after all and the same should apply to making your own (flash paper not to be confused with nitrated paper) in a single large mass. Read up on gun cotton, it's manufacture, accidents and history of 19th century destructive failed attempts to use it directly. As flash paper is a wood pulp product a reead up on early wood cellulose powders might be an interesting read. I do like this system in that the paper reaches down to the primer so ignition issues are absent. The load is it's own filler and ignites all along the cartridge so there is no progressing fire front. Shades of Afridi .303 nitro cellulose film stock reloads (do NOT try that yourself). How much does a magnum primer differ from a normal primer in this system? Maybe a magnum primer and an 'M' of flash paper would let a black powder .43 or .45 work?
john fisk I have no intention of playing amateur chemist to make gun cotton or flash paper. I live in a 500 year old wooden house 😇.
Could you please tell us about the mass of the flash paper, mass of the ball and speed of the ball?
Thank you!
Boris Kheyfits Speed - No idea, it’s for plinking and I don’t have a chrony. Mass of ball: Density of pure lead x volume of a .330” ball. Mass of paper: No clue, it’s not an exact science and paper mass will invariably be different depending on the manufacturer.
Thank you!
More cats.
Fun fact I only just found out, gallery rifles and ammo are legal without licence in the UK! Under 223 calibre though. Legal loophole left over from Boer war. Still uk gov classes 6mm flobert as firearm...
If you're talking about Section 11(4) exemption, this only applies to operators of a miniature range. They're not exempt for "normal" people.
@@BlokeontheRange understood, but legally anyone can start a club/range and it's open to normal people, though possession by individuals who shoot there? www.guntradenews.com/comment/legal/legal-small-bore-and-the-law/ either way, I know there's proposed legislation to remove this clause. If it goes through -- bye bye small bore in the UK?
@@LoremIpsum1970 No.. this will not result in the ending of small bore shooting in UK, 99% of which operates under existing licencing procedures. There is however a danger that the HO will try and slip in more restrictions, which seems to have been their usual practice..
That nitrocellulose looks awfully similar to cigarette paper... now it would be a terrible thing and totally not funny at all to trick a smoker into rolling a cigarette using such paper. Yes, such a "prank" should never be attempted...
...you can actually buy those. Well in the UK you can and yes, from a magicians' supply shop.
@Roderick storey oi oi bruv, u got a Rizla
nice cat!
Gallery guns have been around a long time. At one time they were called Parlor guns, the 1700's I believe. You want expensive buy one of those in mint condition. Will make your heart beat faster. Hahaha.
Did all of those shoot the 00 buckshot??
look into powder "activated" fasteners? cheap and easy to get in US?
Not being in the US, it's not relevant what's cheap and easy to get there ;)
How far does that one flash paper shoot that ball?
Just My Name Intended range was around 15m iirc. I’ve only tested it to 10m. I guess that velocity drops fast past 15.
The Chap wow cant believe little piece of flash paper can throw a round ball that far. Looks safe, might try it for my kid to learn
The first rifle that you fire after the Berthier is that a Lee Enfield cavalry carbine? If so, how did you acquire it?
123nicefellow123 Ah, I wondered if anyone would spot it 😉 It’s actually a CCLM. How did I get it? I bought it years ago... It is DP marked for drill, which is no doubt why it escaped rebarreling.
@@thebotrchap Great, thank you for your quick reply!
How about a 22-250, 223 or similar and airgun pellets (or even 25-06 and pellets)
Kräft Stjärt For 223 an enlarged flash hole and a magnum primer should be sufficient for a .22 air pellet for up to 10m. I showed a kit for those for my PE90 in an earlier vid.
I've seen someone using reduced loads with a filter once on a range once. The reason someone told me sounded like bullshit that if you don't use a wad to fill the rest of the case it can blow ur gun up.
Corporal Punishment For proper reduced charges in large capacity cases it’s a good idea to use a filler to pack the charge evenly in the base of the cartridge for good ignition.
@@thebotrchap yeah I get the proper ignition part but the reason I heard was some BS about pressure bouncing off the bullet or something causing a spike in pressure enough to blow up your rifle. It sounded stupid to me anyway.
Corporal Punishment Caution certainly has to be applied when making up reduced charges, but the main concern as has been mentioned in another comment, is the risk of double or triple charging the load. Then you have a KABOOM problem.
@@thebotrchap Yup totally agree their too much fast burning power will kaboom your rifle. A double charge is probably what really happened to start the myth then someone made the rest up with zero understanding of science.
I have been doing reduced loads in full-size cartridges with cast bullets and fast powders for years. Fillers are something that bug me - they're unnecessary and can themselves be dangerous. The issue is with small charges of inappropriately *slow* powders. But that's a question of using an inappropriate powder.
Is that cat very large?
@Roderick storey th-cam.com/video/OXypyrutq_M/w-d-xo.html
@@thebotrchap Ah, a home defence cat.
Is a video planned for that LMC/LEC?
Stephen Bond CCLM 😉 Maybe if you ask nicely.
Imagine how quiet that would be with a suppressor...
Perfect rat hunting cartridge.
How about a gallery chassepot load?
Rather easier said than done given how the Chassepot system and cartridge works. You're going to need to use a LOT of filler to make up for the powder you're not putting in.
Bloke on the Range thats what I thought, would be interesting
Aside from the practical problems, the system doesn’t seem to work well with anything larger than 8mm after some testing. Friction increases and you would need so much flash paper that you may as well use a pinch of powder.
Pigeon shooting in the back garden.
How does 8mm Lebel compare to the Mauser in terms of Velocity, recoil and power?
You can look this info up on Wikipedia...
@@BlokeontheRange I already have, but your personal experience is more reliable than anything Wikipedia can offer.
AFAIK there's nothing wrong with the Wiki figures for them... I've not weighed bullets or chronographed factory ammo for either cartridge so have nothing to add.
What kind of flashpaper did you guys use? Also, were the cases neck sized before inserting the ball?
Martin the Music Making Musket Man I just got some unbranded stuff off an online magic store. For the case, it really depends on the diameter of the ball but generally yes, it does need sizing down at the mouth a bit.
@@thebotrchap I just wanted to say I never got to actually use flash paper but I *did* expirement with .3~.5 grains of trailboss and had similar results, with rounds reaching 300~600 fps if my memory serves me right. Accuracy was pretty respectable, and loads of fun. Shooting at 40 yards felt akin to long distance shooting, but with alot less recoil. The cartridge of choice was 303 british and the rifle was a No1 Mk3*
@@TheMwarrior50 Excellent! Trail boss is really hard to find here. I’m also working on a short range 8mm Lebel using pistol bullets intended for the 1892 revolver.
Does the cat understand English, Swiss, French, Italian or Romansch?
Swiss isn't a language. They speak French, German, Italian, or Romansch natively.
DothWalrus you clearly don’t speak German
@@norman3605 Sweizerdeutcsh is a dialect sort of, it's just Hochdeutsch with a funny emphasis on k's and g's.
DothWalrus Not quite, some words are entirely different and grammar is also vastly simplified. Up here where we live the locals will find it easier to talk in French than in high German.
Are these corrosive by chance?
Only if you use corrosive primers.
Ach du lieber, did the french convert a cork press to make that tool ?
roadpanzir Schon möglich 😆
Lebel or Le Belle?
Some Coder Phonetically it is Le-Belle (in French Bel and Belle sound the same)
Flash wool is cheap from china at around £2 for 20g...not sure if you could safely substitute over the paper version tho... Thats where your own common sense would need to come into play
Flash wool is very similar to gun cotton and I guess it's burn rate is way faster then that of flash paper - just a question of expose surface area to volume of cellulose. That why they all started to bind the gun cotton in something to reduce and stablize the burn rate/pressure curve, ex british in glycerin - cordite. Plus, flash paper folded up is easy visible in the case, so thereby less likely to double charge. And that is very likely with gun cotton again, as also the load can shift now in case like modern NC powders versus the paper staying in place. That also impotent for pressure distribution thru the case/chamber.
@6:05 (insert crude joke or adoring comment)
Have you thought of making your own flash paper? You just need sulphuric and nitric acid.
Now that depends on where you live! I know you can legally make blackpowder in Switzerland - the only place in Europe to do so. But EU explosives and poisons precursor EPP makes high percentage nitric purchases subject to license if an individual and nitrate content of guncotton restricted to under, I think, 12% so no good for propellant, cause that's explosive manufacture... not sure about Switzerland...
Is that a Mazinga Z shirt?
scipio10000 Yup, although in my childhood I knew it as “Goldorak”.
@@thebotrchap Goldrake in Italy ... sweet memories ☺
scipio10000 They don’t make them like that anymore...
Sic transit gloria mundi ...
scipio10000 Ahem to that!
Ok I don't see where anyone else said it so I'll be Safety Nazi 5:47 NO! do not set a primed cartridge on a surface (primer down) and do what he just did. All it takes is a bit of something hard under that primer, a good thunk with the mallet (and a ton of bad luck) and you have ignition. Yea yea the odds are like 10,000 to 1 I know. . . . . so are the odds that your loaded gun with the safety on will go off at that one moment you point it at your grand daughter . . . . And that is why you would never point a gun at your Grand Daughter & why you should set the cartridge on something with a hollow center so there is no shock to the primer as you strike the ball with the mallet.
Yes, best to use some sort of stand with a hole in it. It be as simple as a block of hardwood with a stepped hole.
Its a wooden table so I cant imagine it going off. Even if it had a hard chip or something that would end up being driven into the wood before the primer.
I agree the smarter thing would be to make a little jig. Personally i would just press the ball into place with a wooden block and avoid whacking a bullet with a hammer... that seems like a bad habit... especially since some novice might think it must be a good idea with real loads.
I guess you could make flash paper.
Donald Newcomb More trouble than it’s worth though.
@@thebotrchap th-cam.com/video/Ir9vU0N73l4/w-d-xo.html
Donald Newcomb Yeah no thanks. Playing with acids isn’t my thing. Also the resultant paper burns far far slower than the professional product.
@@thebotrchap I think that's because he used heavy-weight typing paper, rather than light tracing paper. A very fast propellant could be obtained by nitrating cotton fibers by the same process.
Congratulations for re-inventing guncotton ;)
hey you look as though you have been putting in some muscle mass
Justin Bellio Not really, it’s just the average me 😊
Cordite is also nitrocellulose.
Cordite is a double-base propellant combining nitrocellulose, nitroglycerine, vaseline and some other minor things.
Cordite is a double-base propellant combining nitrocellulose, nitroglycerine, vaseline and some other minor things.
Yes. 65%, 30% and 5%, respectively.
(6:00) War Cats: veteran war kittens.
like
Not be be pedantic, but single base smokeless powder is also basically just nitrocellulose. (OK. Maybe just a little pedantic...)
heh. Your cat is telling you that you play a truly _lousy_ game of 'flip' ;-)