I think my problem with Kenny's "don't sidechain 808s" philosophy is that he always describes it as the 808 "swelling in", but if you sidechain with a specific volume envelope instead of a compressor, you can get an incredibly tight sidechain that ends before the kick even finishes and you'll never even hear the "swell in". you'll only hear the kick sample you chose, blended cleanly into the 808 tail you chose. not a "bandaid" just a good flexible tool that doesn't have an audible "sidechain" feel IMO
I never understand this... Whenever I choose a quick release sc or use LFOTool with a fast LFO, there are just horrible clicks with the sub/kick sidechaining. How do you get around this??
Taking Fox Stevenson's take on this. You can actually use mutiband sidechain to get ducking on the 808 or bass without having the swelling or pumping effect. Its pretty bad when you're getting phase cancellation due to clashing sub frequencies. Also things start to get muddy when you have clashing transients.
can't you just not suck at compression and use custom atk release times such that there is no pumping? lmao like is everyone just using some kinda one knob sidechain, seriously trying to simplify the reality into this irrelevant debate?
@Award Winning Critique Multiband only removes what you want it to remove. Specifically using FF Pro MB to multiband sidechain - you can set the cutoff point to be whatever you want, therefore ducking more or fewer frequencies. As for the clicks and pops, it does depend on the attack and release time. Most of the time though, you can have a very very short attack time with no clicks or pops. Plus, it also depends on the way you set your sidechaining up. Also ALSO, in reply to your other comment - not sidechaining the kick and the 808 at all can and often does result in the exact phase errors in the low-end you were talking about, often causing loss of sub. It all depends on how you set up the sidechaining, therefore the idea that you should never sidechain the 808 makes no sense specifically because you and I both know you can set it up to be insanely transparent using the right tools.
@@aleksandarj5286 also if you use a compressor (or dedicated plugin like Devious Machines Duck) that has lookahead, then you can use a more relaxed attack time and still react fast enough to catch the transient of the sound being ducked.
Alternative: use a multiband compressor to sidechain JUST the low-end of the 808 when the kick hits to preserve all the mid/high transients instead of ducking the entire volume of the 808
@@crystalball020 yeah i think dynamic eq could work especially well for that if you can dial in the attack and release. id do it on the 808 by linking a small bell curve at the kicks fundamental frequency. so if your bass is hitting at 65hz and your kick is at 80hz, put a narrowish bell curve on your bass at 80hz to let the kick come thru a bit harder. i'd play around with it to find the best place though. in some cases the kick's fundamental might not work if the bass has some important harmonics around that same frequency.
@@noname-ng6sj what are you even talking about? it does "work", it is literally just sidechain compression but in a more subtle way. you can sidechain the kick to make it feel more like one element, so the frequencies don't clash, or it can be done as an effect. all are valid options and can sound great if done properly.
watch out for phase cancellation around the crossover point between your bands though (especially in the low end), unless you're using linear phase filters, in which case phase cancellation isn't an issue but your transients might be affected.
Always flip polarity with this stuff. I find a lot of times (back in my hip hop days) , if I was ever layering 808's and kicks, there's always one polarity where you get a shitload more phase cancellation. Sometimes its just as easy as flipping the polarity of the kick, and you're good to go. A good way to find the right kicks, is actually to find the kicks that cause the most phase cancellation, and then flip it. Those tend to be the ones that end up hitting the hardest.
that's kinda poetic how the producers. who were having all sort of weird 'black magic' 808/kick phase issues (which has caused me to redo the entire vibe more than a couple tracks), were actually unknowingly the closest to getting that hardest hitting 'perfect' kick.
If your kick is phasing with the bass and you reverse the polarity, then the kick will be completely in phase with the bass and will boost the low-end quite a bit. If you use this trick, I suggest compressing or limmiting the kick and 808 together so that it doesn't get out of control.
@@kennyduncan7Wow, a year later I just now see these replies. I agree. That's more or less what I was trying to illustrate. You go from having the weakest phase cancelled kicks, to having kicks that hit so hard you need to start pulling things back. Although, I feel like producers should get used to checking phase on most of their main elements. It takes all of 30 seconds to a/b test this stuff. Even if you're not trying to get something to hit hard, you should still avoid using phase cancellation as a mixing tool lol. Get everything in phase, and then mix.
It weirds me out how Kenny is so adamant when it comes to sidechaining 808's. He is a great producer, one of my favourites, but he doesn't know how to mix to professional standards. Who are you going to believe, Jaycen Joshua or Kenny? He's right that you shouldn't sidechain as a band aid and you still should balance and EQ correctly. But there's a way to sidechain that is imperceptible or even better, one that makes the bass feel like it hits harder. I'd highly recommend watching Baphometrix videos to get more in depth on this.
FACTS. CTZ method is legit!Baphometrix’s Clip to zero method changed my mixing game so much. It taught me how to strategically use clippers, limiters, and sidechaining on the way up to the master bus to get the loudest possible mix without destroying transients.
The point is is that it's not necessary...especially for beginners. Most hip-hop producers don't do it because they know how to pick sounds. It's way more important for new beatmakers to learn & develop sound selection/taste instead of worrying about sidechaining that they'll inevitabely mess up. Their beats will only sound less hard in the quest for a "clean" sound. Kenny and you are talking about different things. Don't take it too literally.
My favorite eq technique is simply using a peak controller to cut the specific frequency on the bass (usually it's like around 50hz) that's clashing only when the kick hits. For trap/hip hop, Kenny may be right, but for edm and shit, when you want that hard kick and that low deep bass, you're gonna have clashing and in reality that low frequency that you cut is filled out by the kick so you don't lose any perceived bass and actually gain punchiness as the kick will stand out more.
the way he said that the 808 needs a better attack to hit it harder, is the same as putting a kick to an 808 and sidechain it to feel like its hard, it depends on how u use it and there are various techniques in music and production, that's why there are no rules. by the way, the sidechain technique is from the EDM genre because the kick is more important in that genre, now producers or even mixing engineers adapt to sidechaining because nowadays when u hear a kick really hit hard in a record, its really catchy and cool to listen on
I think you bring up a lot of great points for newer producers and artists but I also think people who've been doing this for a long time know that the kick itself provides some thud and the 808 by itself can provide long lasting sub frequencies. I personally like to use these interchangeably. Sometimes the kick plays alone, sometimes the 808 plays alone and sometimes they play together providing more structure and variance for the song. That being said you were 100% right on sample selection and the notes at which these two things hit at. There's also a lot of listening that has to be done to get sidechain that doesn't sound like it's sidechain. I personally prefer sidechaining straight through the EQ. Giving me control over what frequencies are affected by the sidechain.
Sidechain is used because when the kick and 808 hit at the same time; the transient spikes about 2db which gives you less headroom. Headroom is needed when you master so you can have a full sounding record without going over 0db. Upward compression doesn't work as good when the transient is way louder than the melody
@Award Winning Critique you been producing 25 years and have no accomplishments. Please tell me more about what I’m doing wrong cause you clearly have it all figured out
@Award Winning Critique at least I’m not 25 years deep trying to tell people they’re doing music wrong, meanwhile having no accomplishments to my 25 wasted years. Nice try though
I dont even kick, i click. With tha sidechain like a flashbang bby keep directing these other producers, JUNKO next.... like not even next up, next level. I love you.
I think the real problem here is the phase alignment of both the kick and the sub. The tool for this issue is an oscilloscope and a ducker not eq. It is generally impossible to get the beginning of the two waveforms aligned (Kick & Sub) however the later parts of the waveforms can be aligned. This is why a ducker is used, not to remove clashing frequencies but to remove the initial non aligned part of the sub waveform. The problem here is that people generally use just a standard ramp setting on the ducker and call it done but for it to actually work as intended, a custom curve must be drawn based on the relationship of your kick and sub. The only way to get this right is to look at the waveforms through an oscilloscope while making adjustments to the ducking curve until you see that the dip in the combined waveform is gone. When done correctly there won't be any audible ducking or swelling, it will be a smooth transition from kick to sub. In actual fact you'll get an audible swelling sound on the sub if you don't implementing ducking because the kick and sub aren't phase aligned in the beginning, which causes an audible drop in level momentarily until they become aligned.
I think you're right about this. Dr Dres mixer said in an interview that they align the waves on every sound who overlap in frequency in the mix. Getting those low end wave lengths aligned is key to not get that phase cancelation
@@thestever I use Oszillos Mega Scope (Paid) because I'm on Mac but if you are on Windows you can get Psyscope for free, it is not available for Mac unfortunately. Then combine that with whatever volume shaper/ducker. Another thing to check is if you are using a synth to create your bass, make sure you have it set to (hard reset on new note) this will make sure that the phase starts in the same place every time a note is triggered
I sidechained a kick and 808 yesterday and it sounded tight af. Used a little bit of volume automation to take out the transient of the 808 then Soothe2 to sicechain mode to fix the clashing frequencys. You cant tell there's sidechaining going on. Like Jaycen Joshua says. You save about 2dB of headroom so when done right in certain mixes your mix will be much louder without having the transients fuck up.
BRAVO 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽❗ I Actually Discover This By Accident... Once I Was Already In My Mixdown Stage, I Had An Izotope Insight 2 On My Last Mastering Chain Because i Was Trying To Get A Little Beneath The Average 14 LUFS Streaming Levels and I was Over By 1 LUFS, So i Just Started to Go Thru EQ's On Different Tracks Just To See If Those Little Adjustments Make A Difference and WHALAH, It Sure Does... So Much So that I Left That Particular Track As IS... No Final Mastering Necessary😁😎 ✔👍🏽
So the “swelling in” thing can be easily fixed (at least in ableton). On your compressor, turn on the EQ mode and have it listen for the click of the kick (like 3k-3.5k) super tight sidechain.
Cutting unnecessary lows is key. I do it on every instrument - basically cut out whatever frequenies you dont need. Low frequencies tend to pile up and lead to real muddy mixes because the producer didnt go in and remove those frequencies.
Surgical EQ in general needs to be in every producers toolkit. I agree with you. People would surprised how many random low frequencies all these VSTs produce. How many people out there select a pad or keys and never ever actually go in to check harsh frequencies or stray low end?
@nezuai You would think. So many people just slap sounds together with no eq or compression or anything and just put it out. They think bass + bass = more bass
I don’t usually side chain. If you find the right kick and 808 then eq properly it will sound a lot better. The only time I do is just for a creative effect
number one rule is to have kick and 808 in the same key. It sounds clean and dont clash with each other...but still, sidechain makes whole mix sounds cleaner...not just 808, but every intruments
I like side chaining the kick to the attack (2K ish) of the 808. It will have the kick hit clear when not in unison with the 808, and the attack of 808 come through over the kick. Not always, but I prefer it to the reverse.
EDM artists seem to have the science of mixing bass music down, which is odd because Kenny had roots in that genre for his start. If you are officially taking part in the loudness wars and you want your drums to hit their hardest…sidechaining is involved. You can get away with EQ a lot but sometimes polarity and phasing can dull your mix. If you use the same handful of drum samples for all your songs then of course you can probably skip tools like sidechaining. I think some people hate on sidechaining because we hear too much of it… Like the “Unison midi pack” or “Secret Sauce” plug-in (from Kenny’s cousin Kyle 😜)
That’s so true ! I have some difficulties with the low end and now I’m using EQ like you to progress. Sometime I decrease the volume of thé bass or kick because I would like to get big bass and kick at the same times (Wow effect) but I got boomy effect 😄
I think a lot of the hate Kenny Advice gets is that he'll have a valid point, doesn't really properly explain why, and over-generalizes so you have all of these "buts" in the comments. This is for newbies who think a hard top kick and a hard 808 = doubly hard track. It's super muddy, so they sidechain it rather than choosing complimentary sounds and understanding each part of a kick (transient, punch, low-end).
I think a huge problem many producers make in the low end is not pitching the kick in the key of your track! Especially if the kick is playing the root key of your track, it will sound great with side chain compression and good eqs guaranteed!
When I started producing i heard that you kick and bass needs to be sidechained so I just added it everywhere untill it ruined a beat I was in love with then I stopped
If you want a kick and 808 because you want the kick to hit at times the 808 doesn’t then just pick an 808 that has a kick already in it and then bring down the decay of the 808 until you get just the kick (attack) of the sample. Now you have a kick that’s already in tune with your 808
He didn't mention anything about phase.. If the kick or the end point "lowest" of the pitch sweep is out of phase with the 808. It will not hit hard. It will cancel out. Simply flipping the phase of either the 808 or kick will add to the punch in most cases. Finding a sample that works well or designed for this also works..
I think that depends on the transient of the 808. If it has a little more presence like a soft kick then adding another kick to it would probably require you to deal with the transient of the 808. Otherwise the stacked transients would make it too hard to mix.
@@nermhouse idk about that. Not once in my life have I heard punchy drums on a hip-hop beat except for some of Travis Scott's production. Compared to EDM the drums in hip-hop are quite soft. They might sound nice on professional speakers and headphones but they're lacking when playing through average speakers/headphones but maybe that's just me. Whoever's mixing and mastering Travis' music (I believe it was Mike Dean) is a wizard. Those are the only punchy hip-hop drums to my ears.
I have a feeling Kenny just chose sidechain as his main nemesis, this must be like the 10th time he rants about sidechains, it's not that big of a deal, a song is going to be bad with or without sidechain, good music is good music etc. But he does give GREAT advice tho, not hating.
If you like the effect of the sidechain (ex. 808/bass ducking when the kick hits or whatever your sc), is there a better way of doing this other then/with out compressor/sidechain?
you can use volume automation to do it manually and get full control, or just edit the sample itself in any audio editor to get the volume curve you want if you want it to sound the same every time it hits.
It's a lil funny coz i just saw a video from Luca Pretolesi when he's sidechaining kick > 808 to get more headroom in the final mix for the master :) But i guess it up to each and everyone what they decide to do! Nothing is wrong.
Using mad aggressive steep high pqsses like that will not help your mix though. Can make your sounds peak higher in dB due to phase being altered from such a steep cut.
I've seen videos that also say sidechaining is op and should be used often. I believe wholly that mixing and mastering is a case by case basis, and is different for each artist and track's needs. these tutorials are too contextual usually and the plethora of contradictory opinions prove it enough. Not to mention the pretentiousness of assuming what everyone wants to hear from you "now", is an overly clean mix without the dynamic flow sidechained sounds could add to your song. If you've successfully developed a good sidechained mix, it ain't wrong yo, and your audience wants it. punchy and pokey lead sounds can be used with sidechain tastefully. Everyone produces differently.
It's usually fairly full. Arrangement is pretty key to having the "verse" and drop feel hard hitting. A lot of producers take out the low end or do a light high-pass during the build then remove it during the drop do it feels like all the bass and energy hits harder. Analyzing your favorite songs is a great thing to do. You'd be surprised how few elements go into a "hard hitting" song. Getting good at surgical EQ is also a key part of cleaner mixes that can be pushed harder.
just sidechain the 808 on a very short hihat sample (only the transient), then buss them together and (hard)clip the shit out of it. you get the best of both worlds that way while getting an audible boost in volume, and the transient will stay somewhat preserved
Honestly it’s just laziness, you can get some incredible balanced and blending using automation instead of a compressor, the problem is the labour it takes to automate the volume (or frequency band in a eq if you dont want to duck all the frequencies in your signal) compared to just slapping a compressor or a specialized sidechain vst, my advice is to just take the time to make the automation instead of resorting to vsts
Nice info, but a slight request to the channel. Go with the most advance techniques and mixing (equalisation principles), synthesis etc. One would not make a finished radio mix with basic knowledge. There are 100500 other aspects to consider to make a radio mix, only professionals know them. Disclose that.
909 kicks and heavy basslines are a way bigger problem. I master hella tunes where people have a 909 banging away fat af, and fat heavy bass, and it’s just mud.
Yep, nowadays many folks say ‘808’ when they’re referring to an 808 kick, almost as if the 808 kick isn’t a kick. I’ll never get used to it and I’ll never stop calling an 808 kick an 808 kick because well…that’s still what it is lol. This trend is probably the reason that some people seem to not even know that ‘the 808’ (as they call it) is actually an 808 kick.
I think this doesn't apply to louder genres like Drum & bass. It is known for clipping to zero and having all transients softened so vocals can come in swinging. If I take off my sidechain or multiband sidechain for everything especially the kick and bass, then my tracks would never reach the target loudness. but as far as dynamic songs like hip hop usually is. then by all means, you'll be fine.
Be really careful with the low-cutting / EQ junk tip. It's generally a good idea to remove unnecessary frequencies, but in doubt use a less steep EQ slope / be more generous and leave mor of the junk in. If you remove too much, it can suck the life out of the soundscape. And by that i don't mean "if you remove too much of the unnecessary fequebncies"; i mean if you remove too many frequencies, no matter if "junk" or not, the song can start to feel lifeless really fast. Again: i'm not saying "don't remove them". I am saying: remove them when needed, when it's a deliberate choice. Don't fall into the trap of putting a low cut on everything that's not bass, for example. Think about what makes sense and then decide.
808 kick, but people nowadays just call any “trailing bass” sound an 808, regardless if it’s an authentic TR-808 kick or not. The term 808 has kinda detatched itself from the actual drum machine for some reason.
But you dont have to if you choose the right sounds. Often times the dirtier sound is preferred when it comes to hip hop. Using sidechain as a bandaid for poor sound selection, especially with beginners who don't know what they're doing, is just a bad idea.
There's nothing wrong with doing a tight sidechain, I don't understand the issue here. The most impact you can possible get is when a kick is phase aligned with a bass.
Using sidechain as a bandaid to mix 2 sounds that don't go together instead of learning sound selection first, as a beginner, is just a bad idea. There's a reason why hip-hop producers don't usually use sidechain. It's because they know how to pick drum samples. It's just often times unnecessary for rap production.
@@MiketheNerdRanger No one's judging you brother. I'm talking about sound selection as a SKILL. Although money helps you get access to some sounds. r/drumkits is free. Splice is affordable. Producer friends who share sounds is also free. To this day I have rarely paid for drum samples.
Yep, nowadays people are referring to an 808 kick as ‘an 808’ … I’ll probably never get used to it. I understand many people use the 808 kick as just a sub to play their ‘bassline’ and often layer it with another (non-808) shorter kick, sure. But it will never stop annoying me when people speak of ‘an 808 AND the kick’ as if an 808 kick isn’t a kick lol. Guess I’m an old man with old man irriatations. 😂
Ayyy a cut like that is really harsh and WILL change phase... U will notice it most on subs and kicks... When u low cut with with a curve as harsh as this just do it with extra attention to detail❤️
I don't understand why I keep hearing people say "cut the low end out of the mid elements". Isn't this the first thing we all learned when we started out ?
Was also confused by this years ago. The TR-808 is a drum machine made by Roland in the 80s, which included a trailing “bass” sound as a step in for a bass drum. Nowadays, people refer to any “trailing bass” sound as an 808, regardless if it was sampled from the original drum machine or not.
Do whatever y’all want I was high as hell during this whole rant 😂🤝
Yes. There are no rules. Just insights from great producers on what works for them.
I hope to hear your opinions on these things!
I'm literally glad you have a platform to help scrubs like myself lol
Haha
🤣 fire. But, it’s still lame 💯
In school for audio engineering and now that I understand wtf your saying I thank you 😂🤝
I think my problem with Kenny's "don't sidechain 808s" philosophy is that he always describes it as the 808 "swelling in", but if you sidechain with a specific volume envelope instead of a compressor, you can get an incredibly tight sidechain that ends before the kick even finishes and you'll never even hear the "swell in". you'll only hear the kick sample you chose, blended cleanly into the 808 tail you chose. not a "bandaid" just a good flexible tool that doesn't have an audible "sidechain" feel IMO
Well said
I never understand this... Whenever I choose a quick release sc or use LFOTool with a fast LFO, there are just horrible clicks with the sub/kick sidechaining. How do you get around this??
@@MaxWinterLeinweber Manual volume sidechain
@@MaxWinterLeinweber Look at the Jaycen joshua 808 mixing trick
@@MaxWinterLeinweber try smoothing out the curve by not making square envelopes or if the 808 allows for it, lowpass after the lfotool
Taking Fox Stevenson's take on this. You can actually use mutiband sidechain to get ducking on the 808 or bass without having the swelling or pumping effect. Its pretty bad when you're getting phase cancellation due to clashing sub frequencies. Also things start to get muddy when you have clashing transients.
@Award Winning Critique that's too much work when producing, setting up a multiband comp is hell of a lot faster
can't you just not suck at compression and use custom atk release times such that there is no pumping? lmao like is everyone just using some kinda one knob sidechain, seriously trying to simplify the reality into this irrelevant debate?
There's absolutely no reason to sidechain that. Cut that shit and leave it there.
@Award Winning Critique Multiband only removes what you want it to remove. Specifically using FF Pro MB to multiband sidechain - you can set the cutoff point to be whatever you want, therefore ducking more or fewer frequencies.
As for the clicks and pops, it does depend on the attack and release time. Most of the time though, you can have a very very short attack time with no clicks or pops. Plus, it also depends on the way you set your sidechaining up.
Also ALSO, in reply to your other comment - not sidechaining the kick and the 808 at all can and often does result in the exact phase errors in the low-end you were talking about, often causing loss of sub.
It all depends on how you set up the sidechaining, therefore the idea that you should never sidechain the 808 makes no sense specifically because you and I both know you can set it up to be insanely transparent using the right tools.
@@aleksandarj5286 also if you use a compressor (or dedicated plugin like Devious Machines Duck) that has lookahead, then you can use a more relaxed attack time and still react fast enough to catch the transient of the sound being ducked.
Alternative: use a multiband compressor to sidechain JUST the low-end of the 808 when the kick hits to preserve all the mid/high transients instead of ducking the entire volume of the 808
Dynamic eq would work too right
@@crystalball020 yeah i think dynamic eq could work especially well for that if you can dial in the attack and release. id do it on the 808 by linking a small bell curve at the kicks fundamental frequency. so if your bass is hitting at 65hz and your kick is at 80hz, put a narrowish bell curve on your bass at 80hz to let the kick come thru a bit harder.
i'd play around with it to find the best place though. in some cases the kick's fundamental might not work if the bass has some important harmonics around that same frequency.
That isn't a good solution. Treat the kick and 808 like one element instead. What you're talking about doesn't actually work.
@@noname-ng6sj what are you even talking about? it does "work", it is literally just sidechain compression but in a more subtle way. you can sidechain the kick to make it feel more like one element, so the frequencies don't clash, or it can be done as an effect. all are valid options and can sound great if done properly.
watch out for phase cancellation around the crossover point between your bands though (especially in the low end), unless you're using linear phase filters, in which case phase cancellation isn't an issue but your transients might be affected.
Always flip polarity with this stuff. I find a lot of times (back in my hip hop days) , if I was ever layering 808's and kicks, there's always one polarity where you get a shitload more phase cancellation. Sometimes its just as easy as flipping the polarity of the kick, and you're good to go. A good way to find the right kicks, is actually to find the kicks that cause the most phase cancellation, and then flip it. Those tend to be the ones that end up hitting the hardest.
that's kinda poetic how the producers. who were having all sort of weird 'black magic' 808/kick phase issues (which has caused me to redo the entire vibe more than a couple tracks), were actually unknowingly the closest to getting that hardest hitting 'perfect' kick.
If your kick is phasing with the bass and you reverse the polarity, then the kick will be completely in phase with the bass and will boost the low-end quite a bit. If you use this trick, I suggest compressing or limmiting the kick and 808 together so that it doesn't get out of control.
@@kennyduncan7Wow, a year later I just now see these replies. I agree. That's more or less what I was trying to illustrate. You go from having the weakest phase cancelled kicks, to having kicks that hit so hard you need to start pulling things back. Although, I feel like producers should get used to checking phase on most of their main elements. It takes all of 30 seconds to a/b test this stuff. Even if you're not trying to get something to hit hard, you should still avoid using phase cancellation as a mixing tool lol. Get everything in phase, and then mix.
It weirds me out how Kenny is so adamant when it comes to sidechaining 808's. He is a great producer, one of my favourites, but he doesn't know how to mix to professional standards. Who are you going to believe, Jaycen Joshua or Kenny? He's right that you shouldn't sidechain as a band aid and you still should balance and EQ correctly. But there's a way to sidechain that is imperceptible or even better, one that makes the bass feel like it hits harder. I'd highly recommend watching Baphometrix videos to get more in depth on this.
Baphometrix videos on this subject are really insightful, good recommendation!
I recommend Baphy for all of your engineering needs
Yeah Kenny is just off base with this advice.
FACTS. CTZ method is legit!Baphometrix’s Clip to zero method changed my mixing game so much. It taught me how to strategically use clippers, limiters, and sidechaining on the way up to the master bus to get the loudest possible mix without destroying transients.
The point is is that it's not necessary...especially for beginners. Most hip-hop producers don't do it because they know how to pick sounds. It's way more important for new beatmakers to learn & develop sound selection/taste instead of worrying about sidechaining that they'll inevitabely mess up. Their beats will only sound less hard in the quest for a "clean" sound.
Kenny and you are talking about different things. Don't take it too literally.
My favorite eq technique is simply using a peak controller to cut the specific frequency on the bass (usually it's like around 50hz) that's clashing only when the kick hits. For trap/hip hop, Kenny may be right, but for edm and shit, when you want that hard kick and that low deep bass, you're gonna have clashing and in reality that low frequency that you cut is filled out by the kick so you don't lose any perceived bass and actually gain punchiness as the kick will stand out more.
I do the same it’s pretty noce
the way he said that the 808 needs a better attack to hit it harder, is the same as putting a kick to an 808 and sidechain it to feel like its hard, it depends on how u use it and there are various techniques in music and production, that's why there are no rules.
by the way, the sidechain technique is from the EDM genre because the kick is more important in that genre, now producers or even mixing engineers adapt to sidechaining because nowadays when u hear a kick really hit hard in a record, its really catchy and cool to listen on
I think you bring up a lot of great points for newer producers and artists but I also think people who've been doing this for a long time know that the kick itself provides some thud and the 808 by itself can provide long lasting sub frequencies. I personally like to use these interchangeably. Sometimes the kick plays alone, sometimes the 808 plays alone and sometimes they play together providing more structure and variance for the song. That being said you were 100% right on sample selection and the notes at which these two things hit at. There's also a lot of listening that has to be done to get sidechain that doesn't sound like it's sidechain. I personally prefer sidechaining straight through the EQ. Giving me control over what frequencies are affected by the sidechain.
Sidechain is used because when the kick and 808 hit at the same time; the transient spikes about 2db which gives you less headroom. Headroom is needed when you master so you can have a full sounding record without going over 0db. Upward compression doesn't work as good when the transient is way louder than the melody
That's only true for analog or if you have some hard limiting on the master. All headroom is purely logical in digital
@Award Winning Critique TH-cam teach you that?
@Award Winning Critique you been producing 25 years and have no accomplishments. Please tell me more about what I’m doing wrong cause you clearly have it all figured out
@Award Winning Critique at least I’m not 25 years deep trying to tell people they’re doing music wrong, meanwhile having no accomplishments to my 25 wasted years.
Nice try though
@Award Winning Critique like I said you’ve been in it for 25 years and not 1 known song. Sad.
KENNY BEATS SPEAKS IN ALL CAPS
I dont even kick, i click. With tha sidechain like a flashbang bby keep directing these other producers, JUNKO next.... like not even next up, next level. I love you.
The legend is back! Love your videos :)
I think the real problem here is the phase alignment of both the kick and the sub. The tool for this issue is an oscilloscope and a ducker not eq. It is generally impossible to get the beginning of the two waveforms aligned (Kick & Sub) however the later parts of the waveforms can be aligned. This is why a ducker is used, not to remove clashing frequencies but to remove the initial non aligned part of the sub waveform.
The problem here is that people generally use just a standard ramp setting on the ducker and call it done but for it to actually work as intended, a custom curve must be drawn based on the relationship of your kick and sub. The only way to get this right is to look at the waveforms through an oscilloscope while making adjustments to the ducking curve until you see that the dip in the combined waveform is gone. When done correctly there won't be any audible ducking or swelling, it will be a smooth transition from kick to sub.
In actual fact you'll get an audible swelling sound on the sub if you don't implementing ducking because the kick and sub aren't phase aligned in the beginning, which causes an audible drop in level momentarily until they become aligned.
I think you're right about this. Dr Dres mixer said in an interview that they align the waves on every sound who overlap in frequency in the mix. Getting those low end wave lengths aligned is key to not get that phase cancelation
What tools/plugins would you use to do this?
@@thestever what plugin?
@@thestever I use Oszillos Mega Scope (Paid) because I'm on Mac but if you are on Windows you can get Psyscope for free, it is not available for Mac unfortunately. Then combine that with whatever volume shaper/ducker.
Another thing to check is if you are using a synth to create your bass, make sure you have it set to (hard reset on new note) this will make sure that the phase starts in the same place every time a note is triggered
Yes this is more adnvaned thos
My favorite thing is the editing. That’s some good shhhh!
"Not everything needs lows, mids, and highs" Damn I never thought of that but it makes sense!
Sol State is life
I sidechained a kick and 808 yesterday and it sounded tight af. Used a little bit of volume automation to take out the transient of the 808 then Soothe2 to sicechain mode to fix the clashing frequencys. You cant tell there's sidechaining going on. Like Jaycen Joshua says. You save about 2dB of headroom so when done right in certain mixes your mix will be much louder without having the transients fuck up.
Sol State Squad wyaaaaa
I also like to use/design a punchy 808 & just use different ADSR settings for short or long sustains throughout places within the track..
Banger videos from you dude. Great presentation
BRAVO 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽❗ I Actually Discover This By Accident... Once I Was Already In My Mixdown Stage, I Had An Izotope Insight 2 On My Last Mastering Chain Because i Was Trying To Get A Little Beneath The Average 14 LUFS Streaming Levels and I was Over By 1 LUFS, So i Just Started to Go Thru EQ's On Different Tracks Just To See If Those Little Adjustments Make A Difference and WHALAH, It Sure Does... So Much So that I Left That Particular Track As IS... No Final Mastering Necessary😁😎 ✔👍🏽
So the “swelling in” thing can be easily fixed (at least in ableton). On your compressor, turn on the EQ mode and have it listen for the click of the kick (like 3k-3.5k) super tight sidechain.
We missed you man!
Cutting unnecessary lows is key. I do it on every instrument - basically cut out whatever frequenies you dont need.
Low frequencies tend to pile up and lead to real muddy mixes because the producer didnt go in and remove those frequencies.
Surgical EQ in general needs to be in every producers toolkit. I agree with you. People would surprised how many random low frequencies all these VSTs produce.
How many people out there select a pad or keys and never ever actually go in to check harsh frequencies or stray low end?
@nezuai You would think. So many people just slap sounds together with no eq or compression or anything and just put it out. They think bass + bass = more bass
So true really cleaning up the eq does ALoT! 👏🏾🤓
Awesome video! Thank you!
I don’t usually side chain. If you find the right kick and 808 then eq properly it will sound a lot better. The only time I do is just for a creative effect
number one rule is to have kick and 808 in the same key. It sounds clean and dont clash with each other...but still, sidechain makes whole mix sounds cleaner...not just 808, but every intruments
Yes I fix My old beats regularly, the EQ used to be all over the place and things used to get muddy.
I like side chaining the kick to the attack (2K ish) of the 808. It will have the kick hit clear when not in unison with the 808, and the attack of 808 come through over the kick. Not always, but I prefer it to the reverse.
Easy trick for making the kick seem to punch harder is layering it with a short closed hat or something similar.
I'm just here for this glockenspiel at the desk vibe haha. it's a great idea tbh
Such a polarizing comment section I love it
I only sidechain a kick to a bass when I deem it necessary which for years now has been like 3-5 percent of the time.
Love the techniques.
EDM artists seem to have the science of mixing bass music down, which is odd because Kenny had roots in that genre for his start. If you are officially taking part in the loudness wars and you want your drums to hit their hardest…sidechaining is involved. You can get away with EQ a lot but sometimes polarity and phasing can dull your mix. If you use the same handful of drum samples for all your songs then of course you can probably skip tools like sidechaining.
I think some people hate on sidechaining because we hear too much of it…
Like the “Unison midi pack” or “Secret Sauce” plug-in (from Kenny’s cousin Kyle 😜)
Phase align kick and 808 make the both hit hard
That’s so true ! I have some difficulties with the low end and now I’m using EQ like you to progress. Sometime I decrease the volume of thé bass or kick because I would like to get big bass and kick at the same times (Wow effect) but I got boomy effect 😄
I think a lot of the hate Kenny Advice gets is that he'll have a valid point, doesn't really properly explain why, and over-generalizes so you have all of these "buts" in the comments. This is for newbies who think a hard top kick and a hard 808 = doubly hard track. It's super muddy, so they sidechain it rather than choosing complimentary sounds and understanding each part of a kick (transient, punch, low-end).
yeah, overgeneralized unclear advice in this case at least
Kick and 808 can absolutely hit at the same time, I find sidechaining to be most useful for kicks with a slightly longer tail.
I think a huge problem many producers make in the low end is not pitching the kick in the key of your track! Especially if the kick is playing the root key of your track, it will sound great with side chain compression and good eqs guaranteed!
There is such a science as phase alinging
When I started producing i heard that you kick and bass needs to be sidechained so I just added it everywhere untill it ruined a beat I was in love with then I stopped
He's right
If you want a kick and 808 because you want the kick to hit at times the 808 doesn’t then just pick an 808 that has a kick already in it and then bring down the decay of the 808 until you get just the kick (attack) of the sample. Now you have a kick that’s already in tune with your 808
this kinda inspired me to be a little less aggressive with my EQ
If you want your 808 to hit harder you can always just add a clicky transient to the sample. Works for me.
Kenny Beats looks like 3 seconds away from calling you SIR, SIR? SIR!!!!! and tasing you
beautiful video
Good points
He didn't mention anything about phase.. If the kick or the end point "lowest" of the pitch sweep is out of phase with the 808. It will not hit hard. It will cancel out. Simply flipping the phase of either the 808 or kick will add to the punch in most cases. Finding a sample that works well or designed for this also works..
having good sound selection or not even using a kick sample is the point he's trying to make.
Finally someone said it
I think that depends on the transient of the 808. If it has a little more presence like a soft kick then adding another kick to it would probably require you to deal with the transient of the 808. Otherwise the stacked transients would make it too hard to mix.
the stacked transients where that kenny 808 punch comes from
@@nermhouse idk about that. Not once in my life have I heard punchy drums on a hip-hop beat except for some of Travis Scott's production. Compared to EDM the drums in hip-hop are quite soft. They might sound nice on professional speakers and headphones but they're lacking when playing through average speakers/headphones but maybe that's just me. Whoever's mixing and mastering Travis' music (I believe it was Mike Dean) is a wizard. Those are the only punchy hip-hop drums to my ears.
@@dmv001 you’re right. Kick is still important to me when it comes to making trap beat. Just the extra umph the kick adds make a lot diff t me
This has nothing to do with transients… but the transient issue is the end result of a soacial problem
Now where can I get those exact 808 and Kick samples he’s using here in this example ?
Most times people have there 808 way to loud above the kick. At least that was my problem I try to make my 808s felt more so than heard now.
Subtractive EQ is Essential
I have a feeling Kenny just chose sidechain as his main nemesis, this must be like the 10th time he rants about sidechains, it's not that big of a deal, a song is going to be bad with or without sidechain, good music is good music etc. But he does give GREAT advice tho, not hating.
recommend any 808 sample packs for trap melodies?
If you like the effect of the sidechain (ex. 808/bass ducking when the kick hits or whatever your sc), is there a better way of doing this other then/with out compressor/sidechain?
shit hope that made sense
you can use volume automation to do it manually and get full control, or just edit the sample itself in any audio editor to get the volume curve you want if you want it to sound the same every time it hits.
too many facts in only one video
Solid Tips
it's wild how much knowledge Kenny just drops for free XD He's truly a legend
It's a lil funny coz i just saw a video from Luca Pretolesi when he's sidechaining kick > 808 to get more headroom in the final mix for the master :) But i guess it up to each and everyone what they decide to do! Nothing is wrong.
At 1.04 your sample appears to be in stereo. I thought it's best to make everything in mono first or am I way off?
Using mad aggressive steep high pqsses like that will not help your mix though. Can make your sounds peak higher in dB due to phase being altered from such a steep cut.
I've seen videos that also say sidechaining is op and should be used often. I believe wholly that mixing and mastering is a case by case basis, and is different for each artist and track's needs. these tutorials are too contextual usually and the plethora of contradictory opinions prove it enough. Not to mention the pretentiousness of assuming what everyone wants to hear from you "now", is an overly clean mix without the dynamic flow sidechained sounds could add to your song. If you've successfully developed a good sidechained mix, it ain't wrong yo, and your audience wants it.
punchy and pokey lead sounds can be used with sidechain tastefully. Everyone produces differently.
I got a question
When it comes to EDM
Should your frequency spectrum be full throughout the whole song ? Or only on the drops
It's usually fairly full. Arrangement is pretty key to having the "verse" and drop feel hard hitting. A lot of producers take out the low end or do a light high-pass during the build then remove it during the drop do it feels like all the bass and energy hits harder.
Analyzing your favorite songs is a great thing to do. You'd be surprised how few elements go into a "hard hitting" song. Getting good at surgical EQ is also a key part of cleaner mixes that can be pushed harder.
It's true, my beats are cleaner now that I cut anything from 0-50 hz on my Master
just sidechain the 808 on a very short hihat sample (only the transient), then buss them together and (hard)clip the shit out of it. you get the best of both worlds that way while getting an audible boost in volume, and the transient will stay somewhat preserved
Solid
Honestly it’s just laziness, you can get some incredible balanced and blending using automation instead of a compressor, the problem is the labour it takes to automate the volume (or frequency band in a eq if you dont want to duck all the frequencies in your signal) compared to just slapping a compressor or a specialized sidechain vst, my advice is to just take the time to make the automation instead of resorting to vsts
This is just solid mixing advice
i feel called out
Nice info, but a slight request to the channel. Go with the most advance techniques and mixing (equalisation principles), synthesis etc. One would not make a finished radio mix with basic knowledge. There are 100500 other aspects to consider to make a radio mix, only professionals know them. Disclose that.
909 kicks and heavy basslines are a way bigger problem. I master hella tunes where people have a 909 banging away fat af, and fat heavy bass, and it’s just mud.
People underestimate the value of a little cropping and a low end roll off
When you say 808, do you mean the 808 kick? The 808 has a lot of sounds so are we talking about 808 kick mixed with other kicks?
Yep, nowadays many folks say ‘808’ when they’re referring to an 808 kick, almost as if the 808 kick isn’t a kick. I’ll never get used to it and I’ll never stop calling an 808 kick an 808 kick because well…that’s still what it is lol. This trend is probably the reason that some people seem to not even know that ‘the 808’ (as they call it) is actually an 808 kick.
@@greedokenobi3855 That's so weird. Just shows how far detached it's become from the actual drum machine itself.
@@harveytherobot yea pretty weird indeed
Awhile back someone on Reddit asked "what hardware was the original 808 sampled from?" JFC.
I think this doesn't apply to louder genres like Drum & bass. It is known for clipping to zero and having all transients softened so vocals can come in swinging. If I take off my sidechain or multiband sidechain for everything especially the kick and bass, then my tracks would never reach the target loudness. but as far as dynamic songs like hip hop usually is. then by all means, you'll be fine.
what is that groovy song at the end?
I always cut at 20hz! Should I cut a little higher?!
20-35hz is fine, above 35hz , your bass starts to lose weight
Be really careful with the low-cutting / EQ junk tip. It's generally a good idea to remove unnecessary frequencies, but in doubt use a less steep EQ slope / be more generous and leave mor of the junk in.
If you remove too much, it can suck the life out of the soundscape. And by that i don't mean "if you remove too much of the unnecessary fequebncies"; i mean if you remove too many frequencies, no matter if "junk" or not, the song can start to feel lifeless really fast.
Again: i'm not saying "don't remove them".
I am saying: remove them when needed, when it's a deliberate choice. Don't fall into the trap of putting a low cut on everything that's not bass, for example. Think about what makes sense and then decide.
yeah, shelving filters are your friend when you wanna be gentle, and don't remove more than you need to.
what if i sidechain using soothe to only duck certain ,i.e the kick, frequencies in my 808s and not all of it using conventional compressors
What is a 808? You mean 808 kick , 808 tom, 808 conga? So you mean 2 kick drums?
808 kick, but people nowadays just call any “trailing bass” sound an 808, regardless if it’s an authentic TR-808 kick or not. The term 808 has kinda detatched itself from the actual drum machine for some reason.
Just sidechain better? Tighten the envelope
But you dont have to if you choose the right sounds. Often times the dirtier sound is preferred when it comes to hip hop. Using sidechain as a bandaid for poor sound selection, especially with beginners who don't know what they're doing, is just a bad idea.
W title
There's nothing wrong with doing a tight sidechain, I don't understand the issue here. The most impact you can possible get is when a kick is phase aligned with a bass.
Using sidechain as a bandaid to mix 2 sounds that don't go together instead of learning sound selection first, as a beginner, is just a bad idea. There's a reason why hip-hop producers don't usually use sidechain. It's because they know how to pick drum samples. It's just often times unnecessary for rap production.
@@botbot3698 I'm broke. Good sound selection costs money. I gotta use what I got and make it work. I don't wanna be judged for that.
@@MiketheNerdRanger No one's judging you brother. I'm talking about sound selection as a SKILL. Although money helps you get access to some sounds.
r/drumkits is free. Splice is affordable. Producer friends who share sounds is also free.
To this day I have rarely paid for drum samples.
Also, I'm broke as hell too. There are no rules do whatever you want.
The 808 is technically a kick, of course you don’t need two of them. (Yeah, it’s actually technically a drum machine, but language changes).
Yep, nowadays people are referring to an 808 kick as ‘an 808’ … I’ll probably never get used to it. I understand many people use the 808 kick as just a sub to play their ‘bassline’ and often layer it with another (non-808) shorter kick, sure. But it will never stop annoying me when people speak of ‘an 808 AND the kick’ as if an 808 kick isn’t a kick lol. Guess I’m an old man with old man irriatations. 😂
dr evil- shhhhhhhhhtt
Ayyy a cut like that is really harsh and WILL change phase...
U will notice it most on subs and kicks...
When u low cut with with a curve as harsh as this just do it with extra attention to detail❤️
Oh and damn... just do whatever tha fuck u want😂❤️ kicks with 808s are the shit
I don't understand why I keep hearing people say "cut the low end out of the mid elements". Isn't this the first thing we all learned when we started out ?
Can someone please explain to me what an '808' is? Isn't it an entire drumkit that's called an 808?
Was also confused by this years ago. The TR-808 is a drum machine made by Roland in the 80s, which included a trailing “bass” sound as a step in for a bass drum. Nowadays, people refer to any “trailing bass” sound as an 808, regardless if it was sampled from the original drum machine or not.
Word
if you use 808, use short kick. thats the thumb .
Good conversation nonetheless
Pro producer tip: dont let kenny beats tell u how to make ur art‼️
True that, just wrote a whole track with not a single kick
808 is already a kick and a sub so its either just use an 808 or mix a Kick in a sub
Or pull up a tuner and figure out the keys of the samples. Then match them
Sidechain is a creative technique. Kick and sub isn't all that hard to get mixed nicely.
yeah wtf like 60 percent of my kicks and 808s knock at the same time, makes the kick sound huge and the 808 sound bouncy