One thing not mentioned is that the two missing Primarchs are not simply called that. They are The Lost and The Forgotten, respectively. I think there’s a lot that can be read into those specific titles.
I think the lost ultimately had some sort of catastrophe occur that caused them to become "lost". Maybe some sort of chaos corruption or extreme mutation that the emperor declared them to be too far gone and lost, and were ultimately destroyed by the other legions or wiped out as a result of the catastrophe. The purged turned traitor against the emperor before the Horus Heresy, and were destroyed by The Dark Angels and The Space Wolves. The Space Wolves brought them to ruin. The Dark Angels removed all traces of their existence from the Imperium
It is heavily implied that the failures of the 2nd and 11th were not entirely their fault. As in they did not go "full chaos heretical" or anything like that, which is confirmed by the fact that Horus, Khan and Alpharius confronted Malcador about the censure and removal of the two primarch status from terra, saying that "they did not deserve this fate". Doubt they would be outraged by this were their two brothers actually "the baddies". Primarch of the 2nd was probably mind-corrupted by the Rangdans and joined them, or joined them of his own free will after seeing the destruction that the humans brought upon them. Russ was ordered by the Emperor to put him down. Russ mentioned in some story that he would "hate to be forced to end another brother", when talking about either Lorgar or Magnus, I can't quite remember. So one of the two is totally dead, for sure. Primarch of the 11th likely disagreed with the capital punishment for the 2nd and wanted to protect his brother, thereby committing treason by refusing the will of the Emperor and so they had to get rid of him too. But he was not killed off and is instead likely locked away in stasis in the Black Vaults on Terra as "Subject 11". Dorn mentions that were the two lost primarchs active during the Heresy, they would have sided with Horus. And I think it is because they were agains the way Emperors vision of complience was implemented. But as Zangief said in Wreck it Ralph "just because you are a badguy, does not mean you are a BAD guy".
According to what little there is, 2 was already out of the picture before the Rangdan, so it was most likely 11 (but it's possible he survived and is currently in the Dark cells on Terra). 2, according to Clone Fulgrim, was exploring some kinda Xeno construct (Necro pylon possibly) then just....lost contact. My guess is 2 got hurled forward in time to the 32nd millennium. Saw what horrid condition the Imperium was in and decided to reclaim it, kicking off The War of The False Primarch. Despite the success, The Custodies were told to receive #2 (via heralds of the golden throne), bring them to Terra and place in stasis. While 2's victory would be a good thing for the Imperium, it would ultimately lead to an even bigger loss later on.
@@MWH12085 The 11th Primarch hadn't been found by the time of Rangdan Xenocide and the 2nd Legion still existed during it. Rangdan Xenocide (839.M30 - 890.M30) 11th Primarch discovery (899.M30 - 981.M30)
There's also another theory built on the Rangdan that one of the Lost Primarchs met a similar fate as Horus and the Emperor wanted the nature of their deaths kept secret. While another suggest that they became corrupted and infected by the Rangdan and turned against the imperium and Leeman was forced to take them down.
@combichristed - the Primarchs didn't even know chaos existed before the Horus Heresy, so there was no way they would see their brothers going to chaos as "bad" - so the other Primarchs could very well have thought their 2 brothers didn't deserve the censure because they had no idea chaos were "the baddies".
I have to wonder why those two were removed from the records while the Primarchs who fell to Chaos were not. My best guess is because the Chaos Primarchs and/or their legions were still active and couldn't be swept under the rug, and they likely would've been wiped from records had they been wiped out, and the Emperor and/or Malcador survived the Horus Heresy.
My personal head cannon is that the Rangdan were NOT Xenos, but were extremely advanced human Geneticists who had spent the Dark Age literally evolving into a new form of Humanity - in a lot of ways, like the Ousters from the Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons. The Primarch of the 2nd was effectively immune to the Charisma of the Emperor and never felt any sort of bond with him so when he met the Rangdan, he determined that they were a better path forward for Humanity - and joined them. The 11th had deformities within the Legion (as referenced by Sanguinius), which caused him to join with the 2nd in joining the Randgan to save his Legion. The Astartes of the 2nd didn't join the Primarch en masse as they had the same "flaw" as their Primarch, and felt none of the same loyalty to him that even the World Eaters and Iron Warriors felt towards Angron and Perturabo. The 11th Astartes did join en mass to save themselves. The Emperor considered this to be the greatest threat to the Imperium and his vision for humanity - not just the defection of two Primarchs, but the possibility of an alternate future for Humanity that might be able to compete with his own. He had to eradicate the Randgan entirely, he had to eradicate the Defectors, and he had to obliterate the idea that there could be a competing narrative for humanity. And why the Rangdan were turned into "Xenos" for the official records. (This is also why no attempts have been made to do the same thing after the Horus Heresy - Chaos is an "obvious evil" compared to the Rangdan "Competing Ideology".)
I'm keeping this as head canon lol. But the only diff I would say is while a majority of the 2nd wouldnt have joined their primarch I think there would have bein some that did as they saw the 2nd gave a better choice. And with the 11th I dont think they all joined up as there may have bein those who got lucky and didnt suffer the defect or who believed this way wasnt the right way. Hence why the Smurfs and Impirial fists got so many new ppl (I member hearing they both got some growth at a odd point). I do think that certain chapters under those 2 legions were wholly members of the 2nd and 11th as some chapters dont even act anywhere close to that groups primarch or others even. I do think one of the cursed founding groups, Black Dragons I think is the name, is a chapter of the 11th. 11th was said to have a noticeable defecnt and the BD chapter is the only one growing bone weapons. I think there is plenty of proof out there but getting it together to actually find the lines is tough, well that and GW retconning things.
Obviously I’m not trying to be a jerk about anything, this is a pretty good theory, but something to keep in mind is that after whatever happened with 2 and 11 happened the ultramarine and imperial fists got a big swell to there numbers. Logically then there primarchs had similarly stable and unflashy geneseed because then you’d see comments about how suddenly weird it was that the ultras were undergoing bizarre mutations or the fists suddenly being less obedient. Just some food for thought
That actually ties pretty well with what we know about the 2nd Primarch, he was evidently both cold, arrogant, and very logical, once calling Fulgrim something akin to an prideful idiot if he thought he could take a planet with just himself and a handful of Emperor's Children. So him being disconnected even from the Emperor could hint at that.
Terra has 20 pedestals supporting 9 loyalist primarch statues, and the 9 that turned traitor also stand but have been shrouded. The two pedestals for the lost and the purged are empty. This implies they did something worse than fall to chaos, heresy, and rebellion. I don't know what kind of "Noodle Incident" could be strong enough for that kind of disgrace.
Is the average citizen aware of the traitors? I’d assume what they did wasn’t any worse than putting dear old dad on a ventilator but when half the legions go bad it’s a lot harder to Stalin that history than it was with only two legions
Yeah, but it's not Big E or Malcador making the call after the Heresy. It could be they were covered and not removed because it was his choice at the time, and he refused to remove his brothers, where as the 2nd and 11th were already lost and forgotten.
@@jesserothhammer7378 the call was made before the heresy. Malcador personally psychically punished Horus for daring to defy the order to even consider naming them.
My favorite theory is that Primarchs 2 and 11 Killed each other. Not because of Chaotic influence, not because of Xeno manipulation, but pure and utter contempt and hatred for one another. The Emperor buried it and wiped the Primarchs memories to keep one another from becoming suspicious or worried about one another, and starve Chaos of any possible Daemons that might be formed from the Psychic backlash that would come from the pure hate driven deaths of the Primarchs. They were meant to be the peaks of Humanity, free of all things that was wrong with it, so that wouldn’t possibly help.
The most clear evidence for that they were in fact destroyed by the Emperor is on page 162 (im not autistic I just happen to be reading it right now) in "The first Heretic" where Lorgar discusses with Magnus if the Emperor is planning to "Break the word bearers and be cast alongside the brothers we no longer speak of" and Magnus admits the Emperor had come to them all to vote on Lorgars fate. The conversation turns to who voted for Lorgar to be spared and apparently Leman Russ had said that "he had already lost two brothers, and had no desire to lose a third" - that speaks against that they were actually killed by Leman, I think. Lorgar then says "two already lost... I still recall how they--" Magnus breaks in with "Enough! Honor the oath you took that day" Lorgar: "You all find it so easy to forget the past. None of you ever wish to speak of what was lost. But could you do it again? Could you stand with Horus and Fulgrim and never again speak my name purely because a promise?" Magnus: "The Word Bearers will not walk the same path as the forgotten and the purged... I trust you Lorgar" The word "purged" is very important here. Another bit of clarifying info is in the "A Thousand Sons" book page 264. When Magnus comes to Ullanor to watch Horus become Warmaster he speaks with Mortarion and he says: "Brother, a great day is it not? Nine sons of the Emperor gathered together on one world, such a thing has not happened since..." Mortarion answers with "I know well when it was, Magnus. And the Emperor forbade us to speak of it again. Do you disobey that command?" So my take is they had a big old gathering of the entire family, or atleast nine of them, and the Emperor or his appointed executioner slew them infront of the other primarchs for whatever transgressions they had commited or corruptions they were afflicted by and then everyone took an oath not to speak of it again. There is also this interstellar like scene in the first heretic page 296 where a daemon is showing word bearer astartes the inside of the primarch gestation chamber and they are standing in front of baby number 11 and talking about that they should just kill him now so the ultramarines don't get such a boost in numbers later. So im pretty sure that's where the space marines of the lost legions went.
One of my favorite parts of lore. Malcador slapping is old man D on the table and telling Horis to “Shut up boy before I unmake you.” Just for trying to say one if the lost primark’s name.
tbh Malcador feels like a character whom both belongs in this universe, and like they are from a completely different series. Like he always feels like someones smart ass level 20 wizard from a mythic dnd game that decided to plane shift and larp as a techno-wizard for a few hundred years in some other setting.
Horus: “Why you took my brother’s statues down?” Malcador: “I don’t know what you are talking about.” Horus: “Yes you do! My brothers…” Malcador: “Shut your mouth boy!” *Malcador whispers in his ear* “You want to bb next? Didn’t think so”
If Malcador can hide a whole moon in another demension for the GK while still doing his psycher stuff. I'd believe he could unmake, not just unalive a Primarch. Besides he's the super secret grandmaster of the Ordo Assasinorum🤷♂️
Rick Priestly, one of *the* guys behind 40k, said that the two lost legions were just there to give an air of mystery and long standing myth to the setting when he created them before the horus heresy was even a thing, it had nothing to do with making custom legions.
Unrelated but I read his name as Rick Astley and I was understandably shook that the singer was also one of the people behind 40K. To your point: Id like to confirm, there was never a olan to have a million spacemarine legions? Was all that just a coincidence that gw capitalized on?
I remember a story with Rogal Dorn when he was fortifying the Imperial Palace, a secret wing was discovered. Immediately Malcador showed up and told Rogal to never enter but wall it back up and forget it. There was a small hint it had something to do with one or both of the lost legions. I can't remember where I read that story currently and it may take a me while unless Google search can save me.
Big E and Malcador have both mentioned duplication of the Primarchs abilities and I think that means one of them, 2nd or 11th, is another powerful psycher or possibly another perpetual.
If your thoughts are correct, this could mean that the IInd Primarch is a psyker that went rogue, maybe because of the Rangdan Xenocide, and the XIth is a perpetual that the Custodes have kept prisoner in the Black Cells under Subject 11.
In the book ”The first heretic ” there is a conversation between Lorgar and Magnus where Lorgar asks Magnus if the emperor had ever considered destroying the Word bearers legion( because of their zealousness(is this the right Word?) and them defying his decree of secularitism)like he did with ”the forgotten” and ”the purged” where Magnus admits it was on the table and the primarchs had to vote and Magnus voted againstit while Leman Russ voted for it. During this conversation they actively speak about the two lost legions as destroyed by other astartes. And it’s heavily implied if not outright said that Russ destroyed one of the legions.
There is an implication in the lore that them being forgotten was a reward. Like they did something messed up but were able to make it up to the big E and their reward was being forgotten rather than shamed and disgraced.
My skull canon is that the Lost Legion were all blanks and the emperor had to do something with the massive doom void they create being together. So big E had them shunted into the warp creating a bubble in the warp which he could use for his webway. The Lost primarch being the bigger blankier one is the anchor point. Edit: He had them expunged from the records so his other "Sons" wouldnt fear being used as a private airport in hell.
The 2nd legion is the Angrymarines of course. The records of their existence were lost because "WHEN ROBOUTE GIRLYMAN WAS "REORGANIZING" THE SPACE MARINES HE ACCIDENTALLY HIT DELETE INSTEAD OF COPY" (The Angrymarines are always so damn angry that even their normal speech sounds like the caps lock is permanently on). They #2 on everything and they got your II right here. Seriously though, the whole point of the nameless Primarchs was to be user generated content, so anything and everything regarding their identity, fate, or continued existence is officially unofficial fanon.
I always figured one tried to start their own empire. We're missing a "Revolutionary" type of warrior, and I want Space Napoleon. Plus, that type would integrate into the Ultramarines rather well.
My theory was that neither were killed just, detained of some sort… the whole “subject 11 in the dark cells” thing yea, I buy into that I think that’s primarch 11. But for primarch 2. I believe he was exiled or disappeared at some point and re-emerged during the war of the false primarch, an event with practically no lore but involved a tone of space marine chapters. My thought is that he showed up, rallied the few chapters that used his gene seed to do something and then got 1984’d after an imperial response
@@thierryfaquet7405 Them he got it totally wrong because GW actively encouraged the creation of new Chapters in second edition 40K, where the Horus Heresy was more developed and the legions long gone. Hell, the Heresy was a thing in Rouge Trader. Regardless, the concept of creating your own Marine Chapters has never disappeared.
@@xxnoxx-xp5bl again he didn't speak about chapters of space marines but LEGION. You somewhat dumb or something ? Or don't understand the difference between a space marine legion and chapter ?
There were at least 50-75k survivors from each of the Lost Legions that either joined Guiliman or Sanguinius? The Ward Bearers, Ultramarines and Blood Angels were the most populated Legions?
It was just the ultramarines. No other legions swelled in numbers like the ultramarines. But there's nothing official. Officially, the 2 legions that are unknown are there for players to make up their own.
I think the ones absorbed by the Ultramarines were culled, and the ones to the Space Wolves were the reason for the gene seed mutation. Space Wolves definitely would have had contact with one or both legions seeing as how Russ was BIG Es executioner.
My theory is that the Second Legion is the Legion of the Damned. They probably got involved with Warp shenanigans and the memories of their existence got screwed and now people think they’re a successor chapter or either the Fire Hawks or the Ultramarines.
I believe that it is flipped, the second was described in a line from the book primarchs "even the stoic master of the second cracked a smile" when fulgrim said something. And in the rulebook for horus heresy 1st edition you could either take stubborn or furious charge if you had not been using a "proper" legion. The main thing I am basing that the 11th primarch was the one who got controlled or even just mindbroke in blind rage, is that rule, the second primarchs description as stoic i.e. stubborn, and the fact that in book 2 of the horus heresy series horus hit the tank of the 11th primarch in a fit of rage right before the chaos gods scattered the primarchs, when he got sent back in time with warp magic and talked with the emperor.
@Mr Bones Hey Arthur, just wanted to say that whilst you are likely correct on Leman killing the other primarchs, hell he beat both magnus and Horus, he didn’t want to fight/kill magnus. In the lore books it’s described that Leman was told by Horus that Big E wanted magnus executed, but Leman ends up pleading with magnus to just surrender so he could avoid killing either him or his sons. Magnus of course is being proud and insists on not communicating as a way to “atone” for smashing the human webway, so Leman obviously has to go and drag him back to holy Terra. This, of course, is made more difficult and more violent with the thousand sons protecting their dad like zealots, so inevitably the space wolves, who admittedly wanted to beat up the nerds, fight the thousand sons, which in turn is what prompted magnus to fight Leman. Also, everyone acts like Leman was stupid for believing Horus’ lies, but no one had known that Horus and fallen to chaos yet, and Horus was also the WARMASTER, appointed by Big E no less, so it makes total sense why Leman would trust the guy that his dad put in charge whom was also his brother. I’m sorry if this is a bit of a diatribe, but it always gets me how everyone always talks about Leman like he’s some stupid jock or a mindless berserker who loves killing his own brothers, when that actually couldn’t be further from the truth. He’s a really interesting introspective character, which is why it sucks to see when people don’t get him or go off of memes more than the actual story. Anyway, sorry if this comes off as nerd rage, I really love your content, and I hope you have a good day.
Youre spot on. Russ was pretty adamant about "dude, PLEASE just surrender" even despite Horus ordering him to kill Magnus. Im pretty sure Russ didnt want to kill another brother. In the end, it was Magnus's pride that led to his fall. Magnus was a supremely stupid primarch who ruined everything because of his damnable pride. Meanwhile Russ found himself humbled by the Emperor, and that lesson stuck with him, despite the show he put on.
My theory: The Second Primarch messed around with AI and forbidden/Xenos tech in hopes of finding an alternative FTL travel system to the Warp. This was sabotaged by the Mechanicum and Navigators because of Tech Heresy and the threat to their power respectively, and the 2nd Primarch and his upper command are all lost through a worm hole into whatever not warp alternate universe they were hoping to utilise. That's why all record of him needed erasing and for him to be forgotten. Admitting what he did and how he died would cause a civil war between the Emperor, Mechanicum and Navigator Houses, so better to sweep it all under the rug and quietly roll the remaining second Legionaries into other Legions. The 11th is the only none I think was corrupted in the Rungdan Xenocides, and even then I think people only thought Russ killed him, but in reality he was secretly taken to Earth and is imprisoned there, still alone, maybe in stasis, under the watch of the Custodes.
I've finally decided to see what all this hype around War Hammer is and so far its living up to the hype. Thanks for putting together an interesting video.
Awesome! It's why I'm making these videos the way I am, I want them to be a way for people to access warhammer 40k easily, and understand the lore a bit better without having to contribute an hour of time to read the books or watch long lore vids
The funny head canon I have is that "The Forgotten Legion" was tainted/affected by the war and had to be removed from the Imperium, but still remained fiercely loyal. The Terminus Decree basically says that the legion still exists (ala Grey Knights) but using Chaos against Chaos - a link to the theory that big E is now a deity in the warp. The "Purged" was just traitors from the beginning of the Heresy but have been preserved/revived in the warp, possibly held by some unknown power (5th Chaos God maybe) that GW will throw out at a later date.
So, rumor has it in my tabletop gaming circles that there may have been a player who made a 2nd Legion army, but no one knows anything about him. We don’t even know if he existed. Allegedly, the guy who helps run our games was going to toss some tabulation sheets containing 2nd Legion player’s info into the shredder, and a few gamers got upset and the Lead gamer confronted him. The Guy threatened to obliterate our Lead gamer and the two others, too. So yeah, the story is that the 2nd Legion player’s sheets got mulched and mixed into the dirt used to make a local dog park. This is all just a rumor, tho. No one remembers who he was, or if he even existed at all.
I think I remember a passage from "Emperor of Mankind," where Rogal Dorn and Malcador have a brief conversation where one says to the other something like, "I wish my two lost brothers were here," and the other replies, "Forget it - they're lost to us"
Dan Abnett has mentioned more than once that GW has its own concrete descriptions for all the major holes. Like, they have an description that they use for what the Emperor actually is. It's anyone's guess how fully-fleshed out these are or whether a lot of them are just a few sentences of key points, but these exist so that the authors can write around them in a consistent manner. The Horus Heresy team once sketched-out a basic idea of how the Astronomicon works, not so that anyone would ever know, but so that if something in a story bumps up against the edge of it, they can all be consistent in what that edge/limit looks like. The 2nd and 11th primarchs started out as a build-your-own-legion thing, but they started being mentioned quite a bit in the heresy novels. And, given that GW does have a concept for what is at the center of these narrative black holes, the writing about the 11th and the 2nd is most likely consistent in the same manner.
The build your own legion thing is why I hope they never actually explain it. GW intentionally leaves stuff out to give creative license and legitimacy to their fan's creations. That way you can creativity paint your dudes with a lot of leeway for their background and have it still be valid. Filling that in just removes a huge section of the hobby
Probably because most Marines don't even know that there were IInd and XIth legions, again, they think Astartes vs Astartes combat to be so unlikely and almost heretical that Aeonid Thiel gets censured by the Ultramarines for making tactics for such a situation. And most normal astartes dismiss any idea of fighting each other off-hand.
My space marine army is supposed to be remnants of the second legion. My backstory for them is that the second primarch was raised as a Christian. He tried working for the imperium for a while but couldn’t stand the religious persecution/genocidal nature of the emperor/imperium which caused him to try to rebel. This rebellion was ended rather swiftly by Lemann Russ, who executed the second primarch for treason. The survivors that surrendered were absorbed into the space wolves and dark angels. While some that refused to surrender, retreated and quickly became scattered throughout the galaxy. Despite being considered rouges, the various remnants of the second legion will try to help imperial worlds that the imperium considers too unimportant or out of the way to bother protecting. They can usually avoid fights with the imperium due to the sheer virtue of most humans never seeing a space marine before and not knowing that the second legion are traitors/rouges; and the few people that are aware of that fact on the planets they help can’t be bothered looking a gift horse in the mouth and just accept the help.
Horus alpharius and the khan were friends of the second making me think he was more warrior based . With the 11th mortarion hated him and magnus thought he was prideful making me think he was a psyker
@@daveeol1987 It is more than just that. It is stated that Russ is weird even for a Primarch due to him having something/s within him that make him suited in killing other Primarchs.
@@theemperorofmankind3739 I've thought of that also, genetic flaw? Was he the mirror to Magnus? 21 Primarchs, one set of twins makes it 20. The mirror effect within the lore isn't exact for them. Where is Bobby G's mirror? Could it have been Horus in away?
So, my version of events is that the 2nd or 11th primarch had built a big space faring empire, and found the other before the big E. When the big E did something they didn’t like they decided we’re going home and not going along with this. Then the big E sent legions which ended with a duel between primarchs which resulted in the legions getting big quick. The RangDang Zenocide was a coverup to maintain stability, and prevent the leakage of information regarding the two "dead" primarchs in addition to explaining what happened to the witnesses.
I saw a passage from a book in the 40k lore Reddit where Dorn was getting heated at Malcador about his lack of knowledge of one or both of these dudes. Malcador told him that he (Dorn) actually requested to have that memory wiped. Dorn disagreed vehemently. Malcador unblocked the memory, and Dorn said "Oh shit reblock now plz".
I read that somewhere else. Is GW allowing the Sigillite the ability to reach into the 3rd millennium, where we currently reside, are we Big E's proto-chirren🤯
Oh you new to the 40k yt scene! Welcome! Good work! Keep on producing content! Obviously looking forwards for your take on the glorious and best of all factions-nids-. Just leaving a comment, like and sub to stimulate the algorythm!
Idk what happened to the primarchs, but i have a (totally unsupported) theory that the remains of their legions are what formed the Carcharodon's Astra after being fed the Carcharodon's geneseed. Both because being banished to the outer dark of space to hunt the enemies of the imperium would make sense as a penance for whatever they did, and because it would be easier for GW to do an unveiling with lore if they ever decided to give us any more lore crumbs.
I wouldn't say totally unsupported. In fact, I go further and theorize that Tyberos the Red Wake is one of these missing Primarchs. He's about the right size and I'm fairly certain he's removed most of his face because it bore too striking a resemblance to the Emperor (or maybe Russ did it to him). The chapter's own histories are really weird because they recount the Emperor having personally sent them off on their "banishment" crusade. Honestly the more you look at it the more it just makes too much sense. Their gene seed is even said to be nearly pure.
I think the 2nd primary, and his legion died finding a necron tomb world that opened early, and were whipped out. I believe it was mentioned somewhere in the books, I think the Fulgrim book. So he is the lost. Maybe the 11th became corrupted by malice, and Russ had to destroy them. So he is the purged. But thing is, if he was corrupted records most likely would have been kept regarding this. But it is possible that after it happened again (in my theory) with the Horus Heresy, proper records were decided to be kept.
Why are there two missing legions? My guess that the answer really is that it was too difficult to keep it straight between the II (2nd in roman numerals) and 11 legions. Completely just a meta reason for the authors.
I honestly love the idea of the 2nd & 11th Primarch rebelling, early on, against the Emperor over the course that humanity was taking under the Imperium. It would also be interesting to have either the 2nd or 11th Primarch comeback, but as a complete wild card for the setting along with making Guilliman face some even more harsh truths about the Emperor that he didn't know.
I'd love (this is something that I don't think will ever happen) for the imperium to split in two, one led by guilliman and another led by the lion maybe? The lost primarchs could come back that way.
@@beeeeeesbury I was thinking of one side is lead by Guilliman and the other lead by the Ecclesiarchy. This way we have Guilliman trying to save humanity by leading them down a road of redemption, while the Ecclesiarchy still clings to the zealotry and ignorance that has doomed humanity.
There’s a prisoner in the emperors Palace in the dungeons called 11, I don’t think there’s anything else needs to be said about who are living could be
I’m a fan of the brain worm theory. One had Brain worms control him while I like to make believe that the other refused to kill them thus they were killed as a “better safe than sorry” move. I have no doubt that malcadore would have been somewhat upset yet done it without hesitation while the Emps should have done it regardless to set an example. The other good one I’ve heard is that primarch was there aware of the Emps plan to get rid of the Space Marines Kiel the thunder warriors and the two simply rebelled and were killed off. One version even had the first die to the other lost only to show him the truth in that “oh no I was the one in the wrong all along” trope. Thus rebel and plan on showing the others but emps sent wolf boy who can’t read to handle it as he was too busy getting a “good job son” to care. They were killed in front of the assembled primarchs so the shock of it had them wipe their memory
Makes sense that one was killed by Russ. Probably XI since there are a lot of implications that this primarch was corrupted in some way, probably by xenos/the Rangda.
Yeah, I had a feeling as much. The theory I enjoy most is that they were actually mind controlled by the Slaugth, and were given the name of the Rangda as a cover up to hide that an entire legion had to be killed.
There is references to XI as a cell within the Imperial Palace. This implies its the XI primarch. I believe II was killed and XI was captured. The removal from the Imperial records is also a psychic things. Other Primarchs are unable to remember or speak their names even though they have meet.
BIFFORD: A popular belief among fans is that you left those two Legions blank so that players of Horus Heresy games could invent their own Legions. Is this true? PRIESTLEY: I left them blank before Horus Heresy games were conceived! I left them blank because I wanted to give the story some kind of deep background - unknowable ten thousand year old mysteries - stuff that begs questions for which there could be no answer. Mind you all that got ruined when some bright spark decided to use the Heresy setting - which rather spoiled the unknowable side of things - but there you go so no its not because "make your own legion/primarch"
I may not 100% back the theory but this video is a good show of why youre pretty legit. You have the balls to show straight up fan fiction. Thats not even a subtle diss, i think thats great - screw canon, this is a universe thats fun to analyze and take apart, and acknowledging fan work is pretty based because its not like half the stuff GW puts out will ever matter.
Just found you tonight man, dropped a sub and a like on every video I am watching. Keep teaching others the will of the Imperium for our knowledge leads us to greatness
I remember somewhere it was said the second legion was referred to as the lost and the 11 As the dammed. Also if you look at the cover of the book the sigillie by Chris wraight we maybe can see what's left of the 2 lost legion primarchs.
yeyeye I remember more or less what you're talking about. I don't know if it's ever specified who the lost or the damned is. I do think if the lore is accurate, whomever was the "damned" one, was not damned by Chaos. Because every one of the primarchs knows what happened to both brothers, so it would make not sense for them to be chaos corrupted I think it was probably xeno shenanigans.
Magnus did call them "the forgotten and the purged" when he was talking to Lorgar in The First Heretic, but I'm skeptical that they were meant to be names for them. Might just be Magnus being poetic, since the whole conversation was loaded with purple prose.
@@nicholassinnett2958 They are also refered to as "The Forgotten" and "The Purged" in other places in the lore, but I am struggling to remember precisely where. I do think those names have meaning, please read my comment above for a full explanation as to why.
Wasn't there part of the lore that said that Rogal Dorn, during the fortification of Terra, through the Horus Heresy, found the chambers of the 2 unknown primarchs, and after discussing it with Malcador, he learned that all memories of the 2 were removed from everyone by Malcador himself. He gave Rogal his memories back, for a short period of time, who then remembering all, thought that if the 2 were still alive, Horus Heresy would have already destroyed the Impirium, before having those memories stripped away from him again. I heard that in a 40k lore video but I don't know if it's true or not.
There's a great reason to make your own legion, the same reason you should make your own lore for any faction, it's more fun. The best part of the lore is it's function as a framework to hang your own creations on.
So a space samurai style primarch...called Icarion Anasem...who uses psychic lightening and has a legion called the 'Lightening Bearers'...hell yeah! The sheer dopeness of all that demands the lore be filled. I reckon the time for 'making up' our own 2nd and 11th primarchs has passed.
Also just as a interesting note, there is a prisoner in the dark cells (I forget the actual name of the cells of which the custodies guard) that is highly feared known as Subject 11. Hmmmm?
Those are respectable choices. for me, my favourite Legion is probably the Night Lords. If my dusty collection of Horus Heresy minies is any indicator of that lol Favourite Primarch may be a toss up between Curze and Perturabo. just because I like how bitter Perty is
The one thing I can’t get over though is that if they “just” died during that war wouldn’t the imperium wanna martyr their existence and if not wouldn’t the emperor want the empire to remember his sons so to me it can’t be (yes you could argue that it’s to make the other primarchs not seem mortal I.e killable which is a good one but personal head canon I don’t like to think it’s that) I think it’s to do with the specific names cause they’re not call the missing primarchs or the fallen primarchs it’s specifically the “lost” and the “forgotten” and I believe while we’ll never get the actual reason I think GW will give us just enough lore to think our own theories and that be about it I doubt they’d either bring them back or make them any kind of point or focal point of any story but I could and would happily be very wrong I would love to hear what happened to them and who they were and what their specific traits from the emperor they had or what that would have affected in their own legion
My headcanon: The Primarch of the 2nd Legion was called the "Lost" because they inherited possibly the scariest part of the Emperor: His Imagination. It was the 2nd Legion who won the Rangdan Xenocides for the Imperium, but they did it by using Ork-like imagination powers and breaking the laws of physics. Yet, the fault was ultimately mine. I, their Primarch, failed them because I could not control my own emotions and imagination to the degree that we had no place in the Imperium. The Emperor wanted Reason, science, and logic to guide Humanity forward, and the 2nd could be none of those things. We were creatures given completely over to non-linear thinking, emotional outbursts, and more than anything else an inability to stop thinking about the question "What If". The good news is that I got to live and continue fighting for the Human Race, and my gene-seed, which is uniquely chimeric, can help combat the flaws in the gene-seed of my brothers. The Soul-Drinkers, Lamenters, and Minotaurs are some good examples. The bad news is that anything we do is considered flawed or the work of someone else. TLDR: The 2nd Legion was erased because they possessed the reality-warping powers of Humanity's imagination, with the knowledge-seeking of the Thousand Sons, the emotional stability of the World Eaters, the stubbornness of the Iron Warriors, and the ability to show up in nonsensical ways of the Alpha Legion. The Imperial Fists is the legion that got most of my disbanded sons, but the chimeric abilities of the 2nd would be used in future foundings to even out flaws in the gene-seed of future chapters.
The idea that whatever they did was so bad that they had to be erased from history is so interesting to me cause like, the 8 Primarks that fell to chaos and literally tried to overthrow the Imperium weren't erased from history. So whatever the 2nd and the 11th did has got to be several orders of magnitude worse than literal herasy
From what I've read and heard...from a purely logistical standpoint from GW. It was intended with the first few editions that you would be able to create your own Primarch and Legion. Thus...the empty spaces.... Now the lore has taken and run with this, including it to stir up interest(many a cold lonely night have I spent pondering what they could have been...done...surely the space marines in said Legion were absorbed into the known Legions...is this perhaps where Omegon comes from....) which of course... we all speculate on. Edit: aaaaand maybe I should have watched the whole video before posting...cause that's exactly what you said...
Here on the main thread, the person from gw who was responsible for the initial lore stated he left 2 blank to have an illusion of mystery within the game system.🤷♂️
When Russ is sent to Prospero to deal with Magnus, someone mentions how uncommon it is for a whole legion to be "disappeared". Russ laughs and says "not uncommon at all" implying he had something to do with the 2nd legion or 11th legion, or both.
I think it was something other than 'rebellion' on the part of the 2nd and 11th. Look, Horus and 'the gang' pretty much gave the emperor the middle finger and tried to destroy everything he had accomplished. Yet, we know their names and and legions and such, not to mention their 'crimes'. So to be completly wiped away from record begs to question, WTF did those two do???
Considering there's a 5th Chaos God who barely shows up due to legal issues, who is obsessed with the number 11 and Leman Russ having killed one of the primarchs, I'd say primarch 2 is dead.
on the lowest of keys, I did not know that Malal/Malice's number was 11 I think you saying this may have given me an extra layer of tin foil to my tin foil hat about what happened to the 11th legion.
Something I've never seen an explanation for (and also never really researched) is: if the astartes of the 2 legions were absorbed into the the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists, they should have different geneseed. What happened to that? Were ALL of them killed? Did they not have any noticeable mutations? Were they marked somehow so the apothecaries knew not to harvest theirs after their death? Is there a possibility that there is still lost legion geneseed floating around in the imperium somewhere? Did the collection of geneseed samples Guilliman gave Cawl contain lost legion geneseed? Not that any of these questions have real answers, but I do think about it from time to time. Great video!
I'm pretty sure there was a line in one of the books, cant remember which one, (Plague War maybe?) that says Guilliman gave Cawl the geneseed of all 20 primarchs but said he could only use the ones that didn't turn traitor so it was probably the original samples the emperor used to create them otherwise it would have been destroyed with the II & XI. Cawl being cawl he absolutely used all of them. Its also possible to swap out geneseed for a different one, remember that when this happened the tech available to do it was better than it was 10k years later, its possible there just wasn't any mutations to speak of that would mean the astartes from those legions couldn't have integrated into different ones, I mean the ultramarines and imperial fists are pretty generic looking compared to say the salamanders or space wolves, although they would have had to either mind wipe every one of those marines or they were under some sort of oath about never speaking about their original legion and primarch. Later on there are also multiple successor chapters that have unknown primarchs so again its possible that when the legions were split up they were seperated out into their own chapters or left to die off when they fell in battle. It's such a massive amount of lore and a wide universe of possibilities that unless GW and black library specifically say what happened its almost impossible to even draw half right conclusions. I even remember reading about a theory involving one of them becoming the legion of the damned, its kind of crazy how much information there is to sift through. Although I am one of those people that believe "subject XI" in the vaults below the imperial palace is one of the primarchs, its a weirdly specific name, I think they are in stasis as they are a perpetual. The emperor also didn't destroy absolutely every reference to them, there is a mural (a massive one) in one of the closed off sections below the palace which depicts every primarch, including the II & XI (Carrion throne or vaults of terra I think) and the villas that they were supposed to live in were left standing too, but those were in areas only accessible by the emperor, malcador and the custodes (who know everything anyway they just wont say and are literally unable to defy the emperor)
@@paulhynes619 I actually didn't know it was possible to switch geneseed, and I hadn't thought about the fact that they would have had to mind wipe all of these marines, but astartes are already so psyco-indoctrinated that's not hard to believe. You're right though, there's no way to know for sure. I just like to muse over the questions from time to time. I agree with you though about "subject XI". I really hope we get more information about the vaults and the secret sections of the palace. I know a lot of stuff will be left in the dark, but every reveal is so interesting. Sounds like more is coming in the next horus heresy book. My main thought about Cawl though is, you're right, he definitely used them and there are a lot of new primaris chapters that people (myself included) think use traitor geneseed. In that book (whichever one it is) he makes a remark to Guilliman about how the emperor created all of his sons with unique abilities and they were made to work together or something along those lines. That there was nothing wrong with the geneseed of the traitor legions and Guilliman should use every weapon at his disposal. It just makes me wonder what the abilities and traits are of these missing legions. Even if they keep us in the dark about the primarchs forever I feel like they could hint at those traits and abilities in a way that fits with the setting. Even without loud noticeable mutations they could easily make reference to things traits like the Raven Guard having a natural ability for concealment or the Death Guard having a natural disease resistance even beyond that of the typical astartes, and if they hinted at something along those lines that was new, and gave it to a chapter with an unknown primarch it could be very interesting.
I think between the Big E, The Sigillite and Magnus the Red, you have enough psychic power to “Morningstar” the entire Imperium. The Primarchs themselves most likely do not even remember accurately what happened. The XI Legio was not even discovered when the Rangda Xenocides happened I thought?
The firehawks were an "ultramarine" successor chapter that had some pretty astounding and unique gifts. Yet they were very readily purged upon discovery of said gifts. I wonder if they're remnants from the primarch and his legion that was purged and they all became the legion of the damned. It all kinda falls into place, the warp powered anti warp fire and the way they were persecuted with no leniency, it would also make sense why the legion of the damned only shows up in the worst of it. I wouldn't be so keep to aid my and my son's murderers, but family is family.
The two lost Legions are refered so several times in the lore as "The Forgotten" and "The Purged". My headcannon is the following. The 2nd Legion fell to some kind of geneseed mutation, along the lines that the Thousand Suns, The Emperor's Children, and The Blood Angels all suffered from, except it was more extreme and showed itself more openly and prominently, which forced the Emperor's hand into having Russ and the Wolves destroy that Legion, hence the nickname, "The Purged". This is reinforced in the Horus Heresy novel, Fear to Tread, where Horus finds Sanguinius executing one of his sons for falling to the Black Rage. Sanguinius expressly begged Horus not to tell their father, for fear of The Emperor's reaction, specifically referencing the fate of a previous Legion. As for the 11th, I think something happened during the Rangdan Xenocide, either the 11th Primarch willing joined them, or more likely, was somehow mind-controlled into doing so. If that is the case, then it's entirely possible his Legion would not be blamed for his transgressions, and the Legion broken up, and mainly absorbed into the Ultramarines, who did grow massively in numbers at that time. The 11th was captured, and taken back to Terra for judgement by The Emperor, who stuck him in the cells beneath Terra. If he was mind-controlled, that would be the reason why several of the Primarchs confronted Malcador about his fate, because they may have felt it was not his fault, and that he was being punished, and his Legion, now completely wiped from Imperial history, "The Forgotten". The 11th was purged from history, so that the wider Imperium wouldn' know that one of The Emperor's sons had been able to be controlled by a xenos race. The transgression was more that the Emperor felt he was a flawed creation and not worthy of leading his Legion, if his mind could be swayed. Since the sin was not the fault of the Legion's Space Marines, they were spared of any punishment, and simply absorbed into other Legions. I believe that fits the facts more than other theories, but I'm always open to a better idea.
and audio books should come with graphics that show who is the person speaking presently on my phone during my hour long drives to work when I'm trying to distinguish between the characters.
My headcanon is that the 2nd aka The Lost could possibly be The Fire Hawks. It would line up well enough seeing as they were literally lost. It’s tenuous, but fun.
Well we can guess at least one of the legion names we're a combination of the words "Wolf" "Angel" "Iron" or "Guard". I think it was Angel Guard or Iron Wolves.
in 40k making a missing primarch chapter is silly. but for the horus heresy players it make sense. if you want to make a custom legion and fight space wolves you should be allowed to damn it.
There is dialogue from Sanguinius of the Blood Angels (from the novel Fear to Tread) after he slew one of his marines that had succumb to their genetic flaw (The Red Thirst). He stated to Horus who had witnessed this happen, (of all people mind you) "I will not be responsible for the erasure of the Blood Angels from Imperial history." I think there is definitely something to be taken from that. Horus and all of the traitor legions are still in the Imperium's databanks. They were not wiped from record and everything they did involving corruption and false worship still remains. The "Red Thirst" is the Blood Angels most held secret to this date as well. So, if there are some who know, they are either deal with or the one who has lost themselves to the flaw are killed. However, if there were Primarchs, essentially the Emperors "sons", that had genetic flaws that say 9 of the 20 legions had witnessed, this could point back to the Emperor and cause everyone to lose "faith" in the entire system he put in place. So, I very much so believe that the 2 Primarchs that were later known as "The Lost" and "The Purged", the one labeled "The Purged" fit this description. Now the one titled "The Lost" I have heard many speculate that this Primarch came from a world that was either well advanced beyond most other colonized worlds and that they did not want to join the Crusade, as they were already prosperous and had no need to join, or that they were found but any trace of humanity that was hoped to be there was gone. Thus forcing the hand of the Emperor to wipe their existence from the records. The ranks of the Ultra Marines were then supplemented with this legions ranks.
I think one of the two Primearchs was a Blank on an extremely advanced world that could compete with the Imperium of the time. Immune to the Emperors mind wipes went renegade and was killed or captured to be placed in the cells of Terra. If the Primearch passed their Blank trait onto their sons through the geneseed then it may be seen as a flaw and later the reason why geneseed flaws are taboo.
One thing not mentioned is that the two missing Primarchs are not simply called that. They are The Lost and The Forgotten, respectively. I think there’s a lot that can be read into those specific titles.
It's actually "The Forgotten and The Purged".
@@burntheretic I’m having a Mendela moment here
@@burntheretic Lost and the Purged*
@@falsehero2001 im pretty sure its forgotten too 😮
I think the lost ultimately had some sort of catastrophe occur that caused them to become "lost". Maybe some sort of chaos corruption or extreme mutation that the emperor declared them to be too far gone and lost, and were ultimately destroyed by the other legions or wiped out as a result of the catastrophe.
The purged turned traitor against the emperor before the Horus Heresy, and were destroyed by The Dark Angels and The Space Wolves. The Space Wolves brought them to ruin. The Dark Angels removed all traces of their existence from the Imperium
It is heavily implied that the failures of the 2nd and 11th were not entirely their fault. As in they did not go "full chaos heretical" or anything like that, which is confirmed by the fact that Horus, Khan and Alpharius confronted Malcador about the censure and removal of the two primarch status from terra, saying that "they did not deserve this fate". Doubt they would be outraged by this were their two brothers actually "the baddies".
Primarch of the 2nd was probably mind-corrupted by the Rangdans and joined them, or joined them of his own free will after seeing the destruction that the humans brought upon them. Russ was ordered by the Emperor to put him down. Russ mentioned in some story that he would "hate to be forced to end another brother", when talking about either Lorgar or Magnus, I can't quite remember. So one of the two is totally dead, for sure.
Primarch of the 11th likely disagreed with the capital punishment for the 2nd and wanted to protect his brother, thereby committing treason by refusing the will of the Emperor and so they had to get rid of him too. But he was not killed off and is instead likely locked away in stasis in the Black Vaults on Terra as "Subject 11".
Dorn mentions that were the two lost primarchs active during the Heresy, they would have sided with Horus. And I think it is because they were agains the way Emperors vision of complience was implemented.
But as Zangief said in Wreck it Ralph "just because you are a badguy, does not mean you are a BAD guy".
According to what little there is, 2 was already out of the picture before the Rangdan, so it was most likely 11 (but it's possible he survived and is currently in the Dark cells on Terra).
2, according to Clone Fulgrim, was exploring some kinda Xeno construct (Necro pylon possibly) then just....lost contact.
My guess is 2 got hurled forward in time to the 32nd millennium. Saw what horrid condition the Imperium was in and decided to reclaim it, kicking off The War of The False Primarch. Despite the success, The Custodies were told to receive #2 (via heralds of the golden throne), bring them to Terra and place in stasis. While 2's victory would be a good thing for the Imperium, it would ultimately lead to an even bigger loss later on.
@@MWH12085 The 11th Primarch hadn't been found by the time of Rangdan Xenocide and the 2nd Legion still existed during it.
Rangdan Xenocide (839.M30 - 890.M30)
11th Primarch discovery (899.M30 - 981.M30)
There's also another theory built on the Rangdan that one of the Lost Primarchs met a similar fate as Horus and the Emperor wanted the nature of their deaths kept secret. While another suggest that they became corrupted and infected by the Rangdan and turned against the imperium and Leeman was forced to take them down.
@combichristed - the Primarchs didn't even know chaos existed before the Horus Heresy, so there was no way they would see their brothers going to chaos as "bad" - so the other Primarchs could very well have thought their 2 brothers didn't deserve the censure because they had no idea chaos were "the baddies".
I have to wonder why those two were removed from the records while the Primarchs who fell to Chaos were not. My best guess is because the Chaos Primarchs and/or their legions were still active and couldn't be swept under the rug, and they likely would've been wiped from records had they been wiped out, and the Emperor and/or Malcador survived the Horus Heresy.
My personal head cannon is that the Rangdan were NOT Xenos, but were extremely advanced human Geneticists who had spent the Dark Age literally evolving into a new form of Humanity - in a lot of ways, like the Ousters from the Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons. The Primarch of the 2nd was effectively immune to the Charisma of the Emperor and never felt any sort of bond with him so when he met the Rangdan, he determined that they were a better path forward for Humanity - and joined them. The 11th had deformities within the Legion (as referenced by Sanguinius), which caused him to join with the 2nd in joining the Randgan to save his Legion. The Astartes of the 2nd didn't join the Primarch en masse as they had the same "flaw" as their Primarch, and felt none of the same loyalty to him that even the World Eaters and Iron Warriors felt towards Angron and Perturabo. The 11th Astartes did join en mass to save themselves.
The Emperor considered this to be the greatest threat to the Imperium and his vision for humanity - not just the defection of two Primarchs, but the possibility of an alternate future for Humanity that might be able to compete with his own. He had to eradicate the Randgan entirely, he had to eradicate the Defectors, and he had to obliterate the idea that there could be a competing narrative for humanity. And why the Rangdan were turned into "Xenos" for the official records. (This is also why no attempts have been made to do the same thing after the Horus Heresy - Chaos is an "obvious evil" compared to the Rangdan "Competing Ideology".)
I'm keeping this as head canon lol. But the only diff I would say is while a majority of the 2nd wouldnt have joined their primarch I think there would have bein some that did as they saw the 2nd gave a better choice. And with the 11th I dont think they all joined up as there may have bein those who got lucky and didnt suffer the defect or who believed this way wasnt the right way. Hence why the Smurfs and Impirial fists got so many new ppl (I member hearing they both got some growth at a odd point). I do think that certain chapters under those 2 legions were wholly members of the 2nd and 11th as some chapters dont even act anywhere close to that groups primarch or others even. I do think one of the cursed founding groups, Black Dragons I think is the name, is a chapter of the 11th. 11th was said to have a noticeable defecnt and the BD chapter is the only one growing bone weapons.
I think there is plenty of proof out there but getting it together to actually find the lines is tough, well that and GW retconning things.
Obviously I’m not trying to be a jerk about anything, this is a pretty good theory, but something to keep in mind is that after whatever happened with 2 and 11 happened the ultramarine and imperial fists got a big swell to there numbers. Logically then there primarchs had similarly stable and unflashy geneseed because then you’d see comments about how suddenly weird it was that the ultras were undergoing bizarre mutations or the fists suddenly being less obedient. Just some food for thought
Ooh i like that
That actually ties pretty well with what we know about the 2nd Primarch, he was evidently both cold, arrogant, and very logical, once calling Fulgrim something akin to an prideful idiot if he thought he could take a planet with just himself and a handful of Emperor's Children. So him being disconnected even from the Emperor could hint at that.
Terra has 20 pedestals supporting 9 loyalist primarch statues, and the 9 that turned traitor also stand but have been shrouded. The two pedestals for the lost and the purged are empty. This implies they did something worse than fall to chaos, heresy, and rebellion. I don't know what kind of "Noodle Incident" could be strong enough for that kind of disgrace.
Is the average citizen aware of the traitors? I’d assume what they did wasn’t any worse than putting dear old dad on a ventilator but when half the legions go bad it’s a lot harder to Stalin that history than it was with only two legions
Yeah, but it's not Big E or Malcador making the call after the Heresy. It could be they were covered and not removed because it was his choice at the time, and he refused to remove his brothers, where as the 2nd and 11th were already lost and forgotten.
@@jesserothhammer7378 the call was made before the heresy. Malcador personally psychically punished Horus for daring to defy the order to even consider naming them.
You think they mingled with aliens?
My favorite theory is that Primarchs 2 and 11 Killed each other.
Not because of Chaotic influence, not because of Xeno manipulation, but pure and utter contempt and hatred for one another.
The Emperor buried it and wiped the Primarchs memories to keep one another from becoming suspicious or worried about one another, and starve Chaos of any possible Daemons that might be formed from the Psychic backlash that would come from the pure hate driven deaths of the Primarchs.
They were meant to be the peaks of Humanity, free of all things that was wrong with it, so that wouldn’t possibly help.
Might be the most exotic yet grounded theory I've seen so far
Oh, this is GOOD.
The most clear evidence for that they were in fact destroyed by the Emperor is on page 162 (im not autistic I just happen to be reading it right now) in "The first Heretic" where Lorgar discusses with Magnus if the Emperor is planning to "Break the word bearers and be cast alongside the brothers we no longer speak of" and Magnus admits the Emperor had come to them all to vote on Lorgars fate.
The conversation turns to who voted for Lorgar to be spared and apparently Leman Russ had said that "he had already lost two brothers, and had no desire to lose a third" - that speaks against that they were actually killed by Leman, I think.
Lorgar then says "two already lost... I still recall how they--"
Magnus breaks in with "Enough! Honor the oath you took that day"
Lorgar: "You all find it so easy to forget the past. None of you ever wish to speak of what was lost. But could you do it again? Could you stand with Horus and Fulgrim and never again speak my name purely because a promise?"
Magnus: "The Word Bearers will not walk the same path as the forgotten and the purged... I trust you Lorgar"
The word "purged" is very important here.
Another bit of clarifying info is in the "A Thousand Sons" book page 264. When Magnus comes to Ullanor to watch Horus become Warmaster he speaks with Mortarion and he says:
"Brother, a great day is it not? Nine sons of the Emperor gathered together on one world, such a thing has not happened since..."
Mortarion answers with "I know well when it was, Magnus. And the Emperor forbade us to speak of it again. Do you disobey that command?"
So my take is they had a big old gathering of the entire family, or atleast nine of them, and the Emperor or his appointed executioner slew them infront of the other primarchs for whatever transgressions they had commited or corruptions they were afflicted by and then everyone took an oath not to speak of it again.
There is also this interstellar like scene in the first heretic page 296 where a daemon is showing word bearer astartes the inside of the primarch gestation chamber and they are standing in front of baby number 11 and talking about that they should just kill him now so the ultramarines don't get such a boost in numbers later. So im pretty sure that's where the space marines of the lost legions went.
One of my favorite parts of lore. Malcador slapping is old man D on the table and telling Horis to “Shut up boy before I unmake you.” Just for trying to say one if the lost primark’s name.
tbh Malcador feels like a character whom both belongs in this universe, and like they are from a completely different series.
Like he always feels like someones smart ass level 20 wizard from a mythic dnd game that decided to plane shift and larp as a techno-wizard for a few hundred years in some other setting.
Horus: “Why you took my brother’s statues down?”
Malcador: “I don’t know what you are talking about.”
Horus: “Yes you do! My brothers…”
Malcador: “Shut your mouth boy!”
*Malcador whispers in his ear*
“You want to bb next? Didn’t think so”
@@TheBoneZone40k Malcador is Planar Chaos Gandalf; fight me.
If Malcador can hide a whole moon in another demension for the GK while still doing his psycher stuff. I'd believe he could unmake, not just unalive a Primarch. Besides he's the super secret grandmaster of the Ordo Assasinorum🤷♂️
Rick Priestly, one of *the* guys behind 40k, said that the two lost legions were just there to give an air of mystery and long standing myth to the setting when he created them before the horus heresy was even a thing, it had nothing to do with making custom legions.
YES
correct, though it does nothing to stop us from making them :)
Unrelated but I read his name as Rick Astley and I was understandably shook that the singer was also one of the people behind 40K.
To your point: Id like to confirm, there was never a olan to have a million spacemarine legions? Was all that just a coincidence that gw capitalized on?
I remember a story with Rogal Dorn when he was fortifying the Imperial Palace, a secret wing was discovered. Immediately Malcador showed up and told Rogal to never enter but wall it back up and forget it. There was a small hint it had something to do with one or both of the lost legions. I can't remember where I read that story currently and it may take a me while unless Google search can save me.
Is that the one where he discovers the two draped statues?
@@vicstanfieldshire7754 maybe, it's been a while since I read it.
The last 4 books I went through were “Endless Wars” “Mechanicum” “Legion” and “Battle for the Abyss” I really feel like it was in one of those lol
@@CreateHarmony if I come across it I will definitely let you know! The Emperor Protects!
Its Scions of the Emperor (Anthology)
Big E and Malcador have both mentioned duplication of the Primarchs abilities and I think that means one of them, 2nd or 11th, is another powerful psycher or possibly another perpetual.
If your thoughts are correct, this could mean that the IInd Primarch is a psyker that went rogue, maybe because of the Rangdan Xenocide, and the XIth is a perpetual that the Custodes have kept prisoner in the Black Cells under Subject 11.
In the book ”The first heretic ” there is a conversation between Lorgar and Magnus where Lorgar asks Magnus if the emperor had ever considered destroying the Word bearers legion( because of their zealousness(is this the right Word?) and them defying his decree of secularitism)like he did with ”the forgotten” and ”the purged” where Magnus admits it was on the table and the primarchs had to vote and Magnus voted againstit while Leman Russ voted for it. During this conversation they actively speak about the two lost legions as destroyed by other astartes. And it’s heavily implied if not outright said that Russ destroyed one of the legions.
You misremember, Leman Russ also voted against it. Magnus says it's the only thing he and Leman has ever agreed on.
@@johanwallman6584 you are correct, I missremembered. My bad.
@@johanwallman6584 probably because he knew it would be his job again...
In prospero burns, the skald asks if its unprecendented to sanction another legion and the wolf says no, its not the first time.
Hey, sorry for necroposting, but the word you are looking for is not "zealousness", but "zeal".
There is an implication in the lore that them being forgotten was a reward. Like they did something messed up but were able to make it up to the big E and their reward was being forgotten rather than shamed and disgraced.
I don't see Big E cutting 2 warped infused children of himself and Erda loose in the universe.
My skull canon is that the Lost Legion were all blanks and the emperor had to do something with the massive doom void they create being together. So big E had them shunted into the warp creating a bubble in the warp which he could use for his webway. The Lost primarch being the bigger blankier one is the anchor point.
Edit: He had them expunged from the records so his other "Sons" wouldnt fear being used as a private airport in hell.
The 2nd legion is the Angrymarines of course. The records of their existence were lost because "WHEN ROBOUTE GIRLYMAN WAS "REORGANIZING" THE SPACE MARINES HE ACCIDENTALLY HIT DELETE INSTEAD OF COPY" (The Angrymarines are always so damn angry that even their normal speech sounds like the caps lock is permanently on). They #2 on everything and they got your II right here.
Seriously though, the whole point of the nameless Primarchs was to be user generated content, so anything and everything regarding their identity, fate, or continued existence is officially unofficial fanon.
I always figured one tried to start their own empire. We're missing a "Revolutionary" type of warrior, and I want Space Napoleon. Plus, that type would integrate into the Ultramarines rather well.
My theory was that neither were killed just, detained of some sort… the whole “subject 11 in the dark cells” thing yea, I buy into that I think that’s primarch 11. But for primarch 2. I believe he was exiled or disappeared at some point and re-emerged during the war of the false primarch, an event with practically no lore but involved a tone of space marine chapters. My thought is that he showed up, rallied the few chapters that used his gene seed to do something and then got 1984’d after an imperial response
The concept of creating your own Space Marine chapters hasn't gone anywhere.
he didn't speak about chapters but legion...
@@thierryfaquet7405 Them he got it totally wrong because GW actively encouraged the creation of new Chapters in second edition 40K, where the Horus Heresy was more developed and the legions long gone.
Hell, the Heresy was a thing in Rouge Trader.
Regardless, the concept of creating your own Marine Chapters has never disappeared.
@@xxnoxx-xp5bl again he didn't speak about chapters of space marines but LEGION. You somewhat dumb or something ? Or don't understand the difference between a space marine legion and chapter ?
There were at least 50-75k survivors from each of the Lost Legions that either joined Guiliman or Sanguinius? The Ward Bearers, Ultramarines and Blood Angels were the most populated Legions?
You mean the dark angles right?
Thought it was Ultramarines and Imperial Fists.
Dark angels were the biggest right?
It was just the ultramarines. No other legions swelled in numbers like the ultramarines. But there's nothing official. Officially, the 2 legions that are unknown are there for players to make up their own.
I think the ones absorbed by the Ultramarines were culled, and the ones to the Space Wolves were the reason for the gene seed mutation.
Space Wolves definitely would have had contact with one or both legions seeing as how Russ was BIG Es executioner.
My theory is that the Second Legion is the Legion of the Damned. They probably got involved with Warp shenanigans and the memories of their existence got screwed and now people think they’re a successor chapter or either the Fire Hawks or the Ultramarines.
That's a possibility, since they always arrive in full strength. Maybe perpetual like Vulcan?
I believe that it is flipped, the second was described in a line from the book primarchs "even the stoic master of the second cracked a smile" when fulgrim said something. And in the rulebook for horus heresy 1st edition you could either take stubborn or furious charge if you had not been using a "proper" legion.
The main thing I am basing that the 11th primarch was the one who got controlled or even just mindbroke in blind rage, is that rule, the second primarchs description as stoic i.e. stubborn, and the fact that in book 2 of the horus heresy series horus hit the tank of the 11th primarch in a fit of rage right before the chaos gods scattered the primarchs, when he got sent back in time with warp magic and talked with the emperor.
@Mr Bones
Hey Arthur, just wanted to say that whilst you are likely correct on Leman killing the other primarchs, hell he beat both magnus and Horus, he didn’t want to fight/kill magnus. In the lore books it’s described that Leman was told by Horus that Big E wanted magnus executed, but Leman ends up pleading with magnus to just surrender so he could avoid killing either him or his sons. Magnus of course is being proud and insists on not communicating as a way to “atone” for smashing the human webway, so Leman obviously has to go and drag him back to holy Terra. This, of course, is made more difficult and more violent with the thousand sons protecting their dad like zealots, so inevitably the space wolves, who admittedly wanted to beat up the nerds, fight the thousand sons, which in turn is what prompted magnus to fight Leman. Also, everyone acts like Leman was stupid for believing Horus’ lies, but no one had known that Horus and fallen to chaos yet, and Horus was also the WARMASTER, appointed by Big E no less, so it makes total sense why Leman would trust the guy that his dad put in charge whom was also his brother. I’m sorry if this is a bit of a diatribe, but it always gets me how everyone always talks about Leman like he’s some stupid jock or a mindless berserker who loves killing his own brothers, when that actually couldn’t be further from the truth. He’s a really interesting introspective character, which is why it sucks to see when people don’t get him or go off of memes more than the actual story.
Anyway, sorry if this comes off as nerd rage, I really love your content, and I hope you have a good day.
Youre spot on. Russ was pretty adamant about "dude, PLEASE just surrender" even despite Horus ordering him to kill Magnus. Im pretty sure Russ didnt want to kill another brother. In the end, it was Magnus's pride that led to his fall. Magnus was a supremely stupid primarch who ruined everything because of his damnable pride. Meanwhile Russ found himself humbled by the Emperor, and that lesson stuck with him, despite the show he put on.
My theory: The Second Primarch messed around with AI and forbidden/Xenos tech in hopes of finding an alternative FTL travel system to the Warp.
This was sabotaged by the Mechanicum and Navigators because of Tech Heresy and the threat to their power respectively, and the 2nd Primarch and his upper command are all lost through a worm hole into whatever not warp alternate universe they were hoping to utilise.
That's why all record of him needed erasing and for him to be forgotten. Admitting what he did and how he died would cause a civil war between the Emperor, Mechanicum and Navigator Houses, so better to sweep it all under the rug and quietly roll the remaining second Legionaries into other Legions.
The 11th is the only none I think was corrupted in the Rungdan Xenocides, and even then I think people only thought Russ killed him, but in reality he was secretly taken to Earth and is imprisoned there, still alone, maybe in stasis, under the watch of the Custodes.
I've finally decided to see what all this hype around War Hammer is and so far its living up to the hype. Thanks for putting together an interesting video.
Awesome!
It's why I'm making these videos the way I am, I want them to be a way for people to access warhammer 40k easily, and understand the lore a bit better without having to contribute an hour of time to read the books or watch long lore vids
@@TheBoneZone40k Thank you. People like me appreciate your effort.
The funny head canon I have is that "The Forgotten Legion" was tainted/affected by the war and had to be removed from the Imperium, but still remained fiercely loyal. The Terminus Decree basically says that the legion still exists (ala Grey Knights) but using Chaos against Chaos - a link to the theory that big E is now a deity in the warp. The "Purged" was just traitors from the beginning of the Heresy but have been preserved/revived in the warp, possibly held by some unknown power (5th Chaos God maybe) that GW will throw out at a later date.
So, rumor has it in my tabletop gaming circles that there may have been a player who made a 2nd Legion army, but no one knows anything about him. We don’t even know if he existed. Allegedly, the guy who helps run our games was going to toss some tabulation sheets containing 2nd Legion player’s info into the shredder, and a few gamers got upset and the Lead gamer confronted him. The Guy threatened to obliterate our Lead gamer and the two others, too. So yeah, the story is that the 2nd Legion player’s sheets got mulched and mixed into the dirt used to make a local dog park. This is all just a rumor, tho. No one remembers who he was, or if he even existed at all.
I think I remember a passage from "Emperor of Mankind," where Rogal Dorn and Malcador have a brief conversation where one says to the other something like, "I wish my two lost brothers were here," and the other replies, "Forget it - they're lost to us"
Dan Abnett has mentioned more than once that GW has its own concrete descriptions for all the major holes. Like, they have an description that they use for what the Emperor actually is. It's anyone's guess how fully-fleshed out these are or whether a lot of them are just a few sentences of key points, but these exist so that the authors can write around them in a consistent manner. The Horus Heresy team once sketched-out a basic idea of how the Astronomicon works, not so that anyone would ever know, but so that if something in a story bumps up against the edge of it, they can all be consistent in what that edge/limit looks like. The 2nd and 11th primarchs started out as a build-your-own-legion thing, but they started being mentioned quite a bit in the heresy novels. And, given that GW does have a concept for what is at the center of these narrative black holes, the writing about the 11th and the 2nd is most likely consistent in the same manner.
The build your own legion thing is why I hope they never actually explain it.
GW intentionally leaves stuff out to give creative license and legitimacy to their fan's creations. That way you can creativity paint your dudes with a lot of leeway for their background and have it still be valid. Filling that in just removes a huge section of the hobby
As someone that has truly struggled against ADHD my entire life, I can't tell you how helpful this is!!
Why didn’t Horus use them as a rallying cry? Makes sense as a lot of legions feared being forced forgotten like them
Probably because most Marines don't even know that there were IInd and XIth legions, again, they think Astartes vs Astartes combat to be so unlikely and almost heretical that Aeonid Thiel gets censured by the Ultramarines for making tactics for such a situation. And most normal astartes dismiss any idea of fighting each other off-hand.
My space marine army is supposed to be remnants of the second legion. My backstory for them is that the second primarch was raised as a Christian. He tried working for the imperium for a while but couldn’t stand the religious persecution/genocidal nature of the emperor/imperium which caused him to try to rebel. This rebellion was ended rather swiftly by Lemann Russ, who executed the second primarch for treason.
The survivors that surrendered were absorbed into the space wolves and dark angels. While some that refused to surrender, retreated and quickly became scattered throughout the galaxy.
Despite being considered rouges, the various remnants of the second legion will try to help imperial worlds that the imperium considers too unimportant or out of the way to bother protecting.
They can usually avoid fights with the imperium due to the sheer virtue of most humans never seeing a space marine before and not knowing that the second legion are traitors/rouges; and the few people that are aware of that fact on the planets they help can’t be bothered looking a gift horse in the mouth and just accept the help.
I always thought the 2nd legion was the legion of the damned, and the 11th's primarch was locked in the basement.
Horus alpharius and the khan were friends of the second making me think he was more warrior based . With the 11th mortarion hated him and magnus thought he was prideful making me think he was a psyker
Instead of a psyker. I suspect the 11th might have been a Blank of unrivaled capability.
@theemperorofmankind3739 probably why big e sent russ after him
@@daveeol1987 It is more than just that. It is stated that Russ is weird even for a Primarch due to him having something/s within him that make him suited in killing other Primarchs.
@@theemperorofmankind3739
I've thought of that also, genetic flaw? Was he the mirror to Magnus?
21 Primarchs, one set of twins makes it 20. The mirror effect within the lore isn't exact for them. Where is Bobby G's mirror? Could it have been Horus in away?
@@theemperorofmankind3739he got that dawg in him
So, my version of events is that the 2nd or 11th primarch had built a big space faring empire, and found the other before the big E. When the big E did something they didn’t like they decided we’re going home and not going along with this. Then the big E sent legions which ended with a duel between primarchs which resulted in the legions getting big quick. The RangDang Zenocide was a coverup to maintain stability, and prevent the leakage of information regarding the two "dead" primarchs in addition to explaining what happened to the witnesses.
Now a lore video on the Turbo Bears legion is needed
I saw a passage from a book in the 40k lore Reddit where Dorn was getting heated at Malcador about his lack of knowledge of one or both of these dudes. Malcador told him that he (Dorn) actually requested to have that memory wiped. Dorn disagreed vehemently. Malcador unblocked the memory, and Dorn said "Oh shit reblock now plz".
I always took that as Malcador implanting a false memory into dorn
I read that somewhere else. Is GW allowing the Sigillite the ability to reach into the 3rd millennium, where we currently reside, are we Big E's proto-chirren🤯
Oh you new to the 40k yt scene! Welcome! Good work! Keep on producing content! Obviously looking forwards for your take on the glorious and best of all factions-nids-.
Just leaving a comment, like and sub to stimulate the algorythm!
Idk what happened to the primarchs, but i have a (totally unsupported) theory that the remains of their legions are what formed the Carcharodon's Astra after being fed the Carcharodon's geneseed. Both because being banished to the outer dark of space to hunt the enemies of the imperium would make sense as a penance for whatever they did, and because it would be easier for GW to do an unveiling with lore if they ever decided to give us any more lore crumbs.
I wouldn't say totally unsupported. In fact, I go further and theorize that Tyberos the Red Wake is one of these missing Primarchs. He's about the right size and I'm fairly certain he's removed most of his face because it bore too striking a resemblance to the Emperor (or maybe Russ did it to him). The chapter's own histories are really weird because they recount the Emperor having personally sent them off on their "banishment" crusade.
Honestly the more you look at it the more it just makes too much sense. Their gene seed is even said to be nearly pure.
@@redeye4516 im stoned off my nuts and that just blew my mind. Im now personally accepting this as canon
Chacharadon Astra are Corax's baby shark boys.
I think the 2nd primary, and his legion died finding a necron tomb world that opened early, and were whipped out. I believe it was mentioned somewhere in the books, I think the Fulgrim book. So he is the lost. Maybe the 11th became corrupted by malice, and Russ had to destroy them. So he is the purged. But thing is, if he was corrupted records most likely would have been kept regarding this. But it is possible that after it happened again (in my theory) with the Horus Heresy, proper records were decided to be kept.
Why are there two missing legions? My guess that the answer really is that it was too difficult to keep it straight between the II (2nd in roman numerals) and 11 legions. Completely just a meta reason for the authors.
I honestly love the idea of the 2nd & 11th Primarch rebelling, early on, against the Emperor over the course that humanity was taking under the Imperium. It would also be interesting to have either the 2nd or 11th Primarch comeback, but as a complete wild card for the setting along with making Guilliman face some even more harsh truths about the Emperor that he didn't know.
I'd love (this is something that I don't think will ever happen) for the imperium to split in two, one led by guilliman and another led by the lion maybe? The lost primarchs could come back that way.
@@beeeeeesbury I was thinking of one side is lead by Guilliman and the other lead by the Ecclesiarchy. This way we have Guilliman trying to save humanity by leading them down a road of redemption, while the Ecclesiarchy still clings to the zealotry and ignorance that has doomed humanity.
found you through your raven guard vid and adore this series. so good
Great video! Here's a like and a sub! And from one small TH-camr to the next, I wish you the best of luck on your TH-cam journey through Warhammer 🙂
There’s a prisoner in the emperors Palace in the dungeons called 11, I don’t think there’s anything else needs to be said about who are living could be
What happened to the 2nd Legion? Wolves. Wolves happened. Stop asking questions or Wolves will happen to you to.
I’m a fan of the brain worm theory. One had Brain worms control him while I like to make believe that the other refused to kill them thus they were killed as a “better safe than sorry” move. I have no doubt that malcadore would have been somewhat upset yet done it without hesitation while the Emps should have done it regardless to set an example. The other good one I’ve heard is that primarch was there aware of the Emps plan to get rid of the Space Marines Kiel the thunder warriors and the two simply rebelled and were killed off. One version even had the first die to the other lost only to show him the truth in that “oh no I was the one in the wrong all along” trope. Thus rebel and plan on showing the others but emps sent wolf boy who can’t read to handle it as he was too busy getting a “good job son” to care. They were killed in front of the assembled primarchs so the shock of it had them wipe their memory
Makes sense that one was killed by Russ. Probably XI since there are a lot of implications that this primarch was corrupted in some way, probably by xenos/the Rangda.
Yeah, I had a feeling as much.
The theory I enjoy most is that they were actually mind controlled by the Slaugth, and were given the name of the Rangda as a cover up to hide that an entire legion had to be killed.
There is references to XI as a cell within the Imperial Palace. This implies its the XI primarch. I believe II was killed and XI was captured. The removal from the Imperial records is also a psychic things. Other Primarchs are unable to remember or speak their names even though they have meet.
The primarch of the space wolves slaying anyone for corruption is hilarious to me
Sigmar is one of the lost Primarchs. Change my mind.
I just found your page and I’m now addicted. Majorkill Weshammer Baldermort Mr. Bones
BIFFORD: A popular belief among fans is that you left those two Legions blank so that players of Horus Heresy games could invent their own Legions. Is this true?
PRIESTLEY: I left them blank before Horus Heresy games were conceived! I left them blank because I wanted to give the story some kind of deep background - unknowable ten thousand year old mysteries - stuff that begs questions for which there could be no answer. Mind you all that got ruined when some bright spark decided to use the Heresy setting - which rather spoiled the unknowable side of things - but there you go
so no its not because "make your own legion/primarch"
I may not 100% back the theory but this video is a good show of why youre pretty legit. You have the balls to show straight up fan fiction. Thats not even a subtle diss, i think thats great - screw canon, this is a universe thats fun to analyze and take apart, and acknowledging fan work is pretty based because its not like half the stuff GW puts out will ever matter.
I Personally choose to have the Head Cannon that one of the Missing Legions is the Legion of the Damned.
Just found you tonight man, dropped a sub and a like on every video I am watching. Keep teaching others the will of the Imperium for our knowledge leads us to greatness
I remember somewhere it was said the second legion was referred to as the lost and the 11 As the dammed. Also if you look at the cover of the book the sigillie by Chris wraight we maybe can see what's left of the 2 lost legion primarchs.
yeyeye
I remember more or less what you're talking about. I don't know if it's ever specified who the lost or the damned is.
I do think if the lore is accurate, whomever was the "damned" one, was not damned by Chaos. Because every one of the primarchs knows what happened to both brothers, so it would make not sense for them to be chaos corrupted
I think it was probably xeno shenanigans.
Magnus did call them "the forgotten and the purged" when he was talking to Lorgar in The First Heretic, but I'm skeptical that they were meant to be names for them. Might just be Magnus being poetic, since the whole conversation was loaded with purple prose.
@@nicholassinnett2958 They are also refered to as "The Forgotten" and "The Purged" in other places in the lore, but I am struggling to remember precisely where. I do think those names have meaning, please read my comment above for a full explanation as to why.
The "Turbo Bears" are now my favorite chapter!
Wasn't there part of the lore that said that Rogal Dorn, during the fortification of Terra, through the Horus Heresy, found the chambers of the 2 unknown primarchs, and after discussing it with Malcador, he learned that all memories of the 2 were removed from everyone by Malcador himself.
He gave Rogal his memories back, for a short period of time, who then remembering all, thought that if the 2 were still alive, Horus Heresy would have already destroyed the Impirium, before having those memories stripped away from him again.
I heard that in a 40k lore video but I don't know if it's true or not.
I think they are a blank heavy focused legion, was yeeted deep into the warp and the big E and Malcador were like "dont worry about it"
God Emperor of mankind"we don't talk about them" me"kitten"but why my lord" god emperor of mankind"because we don't talk about them"
Just found this channel. I like your style. Looking forward to more of your content. Keep up the good work.
My favorite Fanon Primarch is Bugfucker. He is pretty self explanatory.
Nah, man. It's the Maid Marines.
This is close to what I think happened. Mutation (The Lost) & Perceived treason (The Forgotten).
There's a great reason to make your own legion, the same reason you should make your own lore for any faction, it's more fun. The best part of the lore is it's function as a framework to hang your own creations on.
So a space samurai style primarch...called Icarion Anasem...who uses psychic lightening and has a legion called the 'Lightening Bearers'...hell yeah! The sheer dopeness of all that demands the lore be filled. I reckon the time for 'making up' our own 2nd and 11th primarchs has passed.
Also just as a interesting note, there is a prisoner in the dark cells (I forget the actual name of the cells of which the custodies guard) that is highly feared known as Subject 11. Hmmmm?
After that picture of a smiling Horus, I now picture him as looking like Joe Rogan.
Sigh....Okay. Number 11 (Malal), killed number 2 (Sigmar) in order to become a warp god. There ya go. Case closed.
Hey new subscriber, love your work man 🙏 looking forward to the Emperor’s Children vid, Fulgrim, Curze, and Dorn are my fav 3 primarchs
Those are respectable choices.
for me, my favourite Legion is probably the Night Lords. If my dusty collection of Horus Heresy minies is any indicator of that lol
Favourite Primarch may be a toss up between Curze and Perturabo. just because I like how bitter Perty is
The one thing I can’t get over though is that if they “just” died during that war wouldn’t the imperium wanna martyr their existence and if not wouldn’t the emperor want the empire to remember his sons so to me it can’t be (yes you could argue that it’s to make the other primarchs not seem mortal I.e killable which is a good one but personal head canon I don’t like to think it’s that) I think it’s to do with the specific names cause they’re not call the missing primarchs or the fallen primarchs it’s specifically the “lost” and the “forgotten” and I believe while we’ll never get the actual reason I think GW will give us just enough lore to think our own theories and that be about it I doubt they’d either bring them back or make them any kind of point or focal point of any story but I could and would happily be very wrong I would love to hear what happened to them and who they were and what their specific traits from the emperor they had or what that would have affected in their own legion
My headcanon: The Primarch of the 2nd Legion was called the "Lost" because they inherited possibly the scariest part of the Emperor: His Imagination. It was the 2nd Legion who won the Rangdan Xenocides for the Imperium, but they did it by using Ork-like imagination powers and breaking the laws of physics. Yet, the fault was ultimately mine. I, their Primarch, failed them because I could not control my own emotions and imagination to the degree that we had no place in the Imperium. The Emperor wanted Reason, science, and logic to guide Humanity forward, and the 2nd could be none of those things. We were creatures given completely over to non-linear thinking, emotional outbursts, and more than anything else an inability to stop thinking about the question "What If". The good news is that I got to live and continue fighting for the Human Race, and my gene-seed, which is uniquely chimeric, can help combat the flaws in the gene-seed of my brothers. The Soul-Drinkers, Lamenters, and Minotaurs are some good examples. The bad news is that anything we do is considered flawed or the work of someone else.
TLDR: The 2nd Legion was erased because they possessed the reality-warping powers of Humanity's imagination, with the knowledge-seeking of the Thousand Sons, the emotional stability of the World Eaters, the stubbornness of the Iron Warriors, and the ability to show up in nonsensical ways of the Alpha Legion. The Imperial Fists is the legion that got most of my disbanded sons, but the chimeric abilities of the 2nd would be used in future foundings to even out flaws in the gene-seed of future chapters.
Note to self: Build turbo-bear chapter.
The idea that whatever they did was so bad that they had to be erased from history is so interesting to me cause like, the 8 Primarks that fell to chaos and literally tried to overthrow the Imperium weren't erased from history. So whatever the 2nd and the 11th did has got to be several orders of magnitude worse than literal herasy
That sketch of an Ork at a desktop. 😆. What is Orc social media like, i wonder?
Yknow your pfp really fits
Tybaros walks in and looks gman eye to eye
“Magnus did a fucky wucky”
I’m dying hahahaha😂😂
From what I've read and heard...from a purely logistical standpoint from GW. It was intended with the first few editions that you would be able to create your own Primarch and Legion. Thus...the empty spaces.... Now the lore has taken and run with this, including it to stir up interest(many a cold lonely night have I spent pondering what they could have been...done...surely the space marines in said Legion were absorbed into the known Legions...is this perhaps where Omegon comes from....) which of course... we all speculate on.
Edit: aaaaand maybe I should have watched the whole video before posting...cause that's exactly what you said...
Here on the main thread, the person from gw who was responsible for the initial lore stated he left 2 blank to have an illusion of mystery within the game system.🤷♂️
When Russ is sent to Prospero to deal with Magnus, someone mentions how uncommon it is for a whole legion to be "disappeared". Russ laughs and says "not uncommon at all" implying he had something to do with the 2nd legion or 11th legion, or both.
I think it was something other than 'rebellion' on the part of the 2nd and 11th. Look, Horus and 'the gang' pretty much gave the emperor the middle finger and tried to destroy everything he had accomplished. Yet, we know their names and and legions and such, not to mention their 'crimes'. So to be completly wiped away from record begs to question, WTF did those two do???
Considering there's a 5th Chaos God who barely shows up due to legal issues, who is obsessed with the number 11 and Leman Russ having killed one of the primarchs, I'd say primarch 2 is dead.
on the lowest of keys, I did not know that Malal/Malice's number was 11
I think you saying this may have given me an extra layer of tin foil to my tin foil hat about what happened to the 11th legion.
Don't forget that Horus was trying to speak his name while being choked by Malcador, and he was saying "Mal... Mal..."
@@TheBoneZone40kHorus is making Malal hot chocolate in the unmadeverse.
Lol. Kroot just played a major part in a recent book.
Space bears!, have you been watching table top time/ draw with Jazza.
Something I've never seen an explanation for (and also never really researched) is: if the astartes of the 2 legions were absorbed into the the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists, they should have different geneseed. What happened to that? Were ALL of them killed? Did they not have any noticeable mutations? Were they marked somehow so the apothecaries knew not to harvest theirs after their death? Is there a possibility that there is still lost legion geneseed floating around in the imperium somewhere? Did the collection of geneseed samples Guilliman gave Cawl contain lost legion geneseed? Not that any of these questions have real answers, but I do think about it from time to time. Great video!
I'm pretty sure there was a line in one of the books, cant remember which one, (Plague War maybe?) that says Guilliman gave Cawl the geneseed of all 20 primarchs but said he could only use the ones that didn't turn traitor so it was probably the original samples the emperor used to create them otherwise it would have been destroyed with the II & XI. Cawl being cawl he absolutely used all of them. Its also possible to swap out geneseed for a different one, remember that when this happened the tech available to do it was better than it was 10k years later, its possible there just wasn't any mutations to speak of that would mean the astartes from those legions couldn't have integrated into different ones, I mean the ultramarines and imperial fists are pretty generic looking compared to say the salamanders or space wolves, although they would have had to either mind wipe every one of those marines or they were under some sort of oath about never speaking about their original legion and primarch. Later on there are also multiple successor chapters that have unknown primarchs so again its possible that when the legions were split up they were seperated out into their own chapters or left to die off when they fell in battle. It's such a massive amount of lore and a wide universe of possibilities that unless GW and black library specifically say what happened its almost impossible to even draw half right conclusions. I even remember reading about a theory involving one of them becoming the legion of the damned, its kind of crazy how much information there is to sift through. Although I am one of those people that believe "subject XI" in the vaults below the imperial palace is one of the primarchs, its a weirdly specific name, I think they are in stasis as they are a perpetual. The emperor also didn't destroy absolutely every reference to them, there is a mural (a massive one) in one of the closed off sections below the palace which depicts every primarch, including the II & XI (Carrion throne or vaults of terra I think) and the villas that they were supposed to live in were left standing too, but those were in areas only accessible by the emperor, malcador and the custodes (who know everything anyway they just wont say and are literally unable to defy the emperor)
@@paulhynes619 I actually didn't know it was possible to switch geneseed, and I hadn't thought about the fact that they would have had to mind wipe all of these marines, but astartes are already so psyco-indoctrinated that's not hard to believe. You're right though, there's no way to know for sure. I just like to muse over the questions from time to time. I agree with you though about "subject XI". I really hope we get more information about the vaults and the secret sections of the palace. I know a lot of stuff will be left in the dark, but every reveal is so interesting. Sounds like more is coming in the next horus heresy book. My main thought about Cawl though is, you're right, he definitely used them and there are a lot of new primaris chapters that people (myself included) think use traitor geneseed. In that book (whichever one it is) he makes a remark to Guilliman about how the emperor created all of his sons with unique abilities and they were made to work together or something along those lines. That there was nothing wrong with the geneseed of the traitor legions and Guilliman should use every weapon at his disposal. It just makes me wonder what the abilities and traits are of these missing legions. Even if they keep us in the dark about the primarchs forever I feel like they could hint at those traits and abilities in a way that fits with the setting. Even without loud noticeable mutations they could easily make reference to things traits like the Raven Guard having a natural ability for concealment or the Death Guard having a natural disease resistance even beyond that of the typical astartes, and if they hinted at something along those lines that was new, and gave it to a chapter with an unknown primarch it could be very interesting.
I think between the Big E, The Sigillite and Magnus the Red, you have enough psychic power to “Morningstar” the entire Imperium. The Primarchs themselves most likely do not even remember accurately what happened.
The XI Legio was not even discovered when the Rangda Xenocides happened I thought?
Hear us roar and tremble in fear! For the Emperor! For the Turbo Bears!
The firehawks were an "ultramarine" successor chapter that had some pretty astounding and unique gifts. Yet they were very readily purged upon discovery of said gifts. I wonder if they're remnants from the primarch and his legion that was purged and they all became the legion of the damned. It all kinda falls into place, the warp powered anti warp fire and the way they were persecuted with no leniency, it would also make sense why the legion of the damned only shows up in the worst of it. I wouldn't be so keep to aid my and my son's murderers, but family is family.
I personally like to think that one of the lost primarchs just ended up on an entirely inhospitable world, or catachan and just died.
-two missing primarchs and two missing legions
-what were they? who were they?
-dunno they are missing
-FOR THE LOVE OF GOD
Lemans russ is no executioner, multiple fights with other primarchs and fails everytime.
The two lost Legions are refered so several times in the lore as "The Forgotten" and "The Purged".
My headcannon is the following. The 2nd Legion fell to some kind of geneseed mutation, along the lines that the Thousand Suns, The Emperor's Children, and The Blood Angels all suffered from, except it was more extreme and showed itself more openly and prominently, which forced the Emperor's hand into having Russ and the Wolves destroy that Legion, hence the nickname, "The Purged". This is reinforced in the Horus Heresy novel, Fear to Tread, where Horus finds Sanguinius executing one of his sons for falling to the Black Rage. Sanguinius expressly begged Horus not to tell their father, for fear of The Emperor's reaction, specifically referencing the fate of a previous Legion.
As for the 11th, I think something happened during the Rangdan Xenocide, either the 11th Primarch willing joined them, or more likely, was somehow mind-controlled into doing so. If that is the case, then it's entirely possible his Legion would not be blamed for his transgressions, and the Legion broken up, and mainly absorbed into the Ultramarines, who did grow massively in numbers at that time. The 11th was captured, and taken back to Terra for judgement by The Emperor, who stuck him in the cells beneath Terra. If he was mind-controlled, that would be the reason why several of the Primarchs confronted Malcador about his fate, because they may have felt it was not his fault, and that he was being punished, and his Legion, now completely wiped from Imperial history, "The Forgotten".
The 11th was purged from history, so that the wider Imperium wouldn' know that one of The Emperor's sons had been able to be controlled by a xenos race. The transgression was more that the Emperor felt he was a flawed creation and not worthy of leading his Legion, if his mind could be swayed. Since the sin was not the fault of the Legion's Space Marines, they were spared of any punishment, and simply absorbed into other Legions.
I believe that fits the facts more than other theories, but I'm always open to a better idea.
Call them the Warps Lost. They might get spat out in 40k
The only thing I can say? Dope. (Good dope, not bad dope, like when the kids say it)
There are several references to the 2nd and 11th scattered throughout the Horus Heresy series
and audio books should come with graphics that show who is the person speaking presently on my phone during my hour long drives to work when I'm trying to distinguish between the characters.
They were victims of the subprimarch mortgage crisis.
My headcanon is that the 2nd aka The Lost could possibly be The Fire Hawks. It would line up well enough seeing as they were literally lost. It’s tenuous, but fun.
Well we can guess at least one of the legion names we're a combination of the words "Wolf" "Angel" "Iron" or "Guard". I think it was Angel Guard or Iron Wolves.
My home-brew theory is that Emp did a Heath Ledger Joker and threw a pool que between lemon Russ and the two other primarchs and said 'go'
Heresy !!! How dare you speak of the second and the turbo bears. !!!! Continue though great content.
0:10 “…”
“Chaplain, repent his geneseed!”
in 40k making a missing primarch chapter is silly. but for the horus heresy players it make sense. if you want to make a custom legion and fight space wolves you should be allowed to damn it.
There is dialogue from Sanguinius of the Blood Angels (from the novel Fear to Tread) after he slew one of his marines that had succumb to their genetic flaw (The Red Thirst). He stated to Horus who had witnessed this happen, (of all people mind you) "I will not be responsible for the erasure of the Blood Angels from Imperial history."
I think there is definitely something to be taken from that. Horus and all of the traitor legions are still in the Imperium's databanks. They were not wiped from record and everything they did involving corruption and false worship still remains. The "Red Thirst" is the Blood Angels most held secret to this date as well. So, if there are some who know, they are either deal with or the one who has lost themselves to the flaw are killed.
However, if there were Primarchs, essentially the Emperors "sons", that had genetic flaws that say 9 of the 20 legions had witnessed, this could point back to the Emperor and cause everyone to lose "faith" in the entire system he put in place. So, I very much so believe that the 2 Primarchs that were later known as "The Lost" and "The Purged", the one labeled "The Purged" fit this description.
Now the one titled "The Lost" I have heard many speculate that this Primarch came from a world that was either well advanced beyond most other colonized worlds and that they did not want to join the Crusade, as they were already prosperous and had no need to join, or that they were found but any trace of humanity that was hoped to be there was gone. Thus forcing the hand of the Emperor to wipe their existence from the records. The ranks of the Ultra Marines were then supplemented with this legions ranks.
I think one of the two Primearchs was a Blank on an extremely advanced world that could compete with the Imperium of the time. Immune to the Emperors mind wipes went renegade and was killed or captured to be placed in the cells of Terra.
If the Primearch passed their Blank trait onto their sons through the geneseed then it may be seen as a flaw and later the reason why geneseed flaws are taboo.