Repertoire: More BEST and WORST Mahler Symphony Cycles
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2024
- I know, sequels are never as good as the originals, but many of you suggested that I discuss more Mahler symphony cycles than I included in my first talk, so here are the ones you mentioned, plus a couple of others for good measure. After all, can you ever really get enough Mahler? Of course not.
"Because it's Louder"........very funny Dave, can't stop laughing....😅
I am so enjoying your talks on all of the wonderful music. Yes, both of the Bernstein sets are necessary. I have the incomplete Levine set on RCA - he really could conduct music other than opera. Saw him conduct a Mahler 3rd with Philadelphia - just amazing
Discussing De Waart took me back to my first exposure to Mahler, which was in Sydney, with Edo de Waart doing the 7th. I remember being blown away, but then being intimidated by the scale and emotional demands of the music. Then, years on, my live exposure was with Vladimir Ashkenazy and then David Robertson conducting. I bought a couple of Ashkenazy's cycle (released by the Sydney Symphony's own label), but I am somewhat fearing going back to them now, even though they were of Barshai's completion of the 10th, which I liked live, and Das Lied. But most of our quality Mahler exposure in Australia is on record (especially now!), and that right now, I am immersing myself into these sets that you have recommended. But I glad to hear that De Waart is considered a good Mahler conductor, because I was impressed all those years ago.
I have a bias towards the Mahler recordings from the 60's and 70's, when new standards were set, and Mahler's popularity was rising quickly. Of course, I have enjoyed many excellent recordings from before and after that period as well.
But, even at that time, when I first took a huge interest in Mahler,
I felt that no conductor could offer a truly satisfying cycle. Mahler's symphonies are so diverse in nature, and conductor's styles so varied, that finding the most satisfying performances of each work made far more sense than putting all of one's trust in just one conductor.
Without mentioning specifics, I found a combination of Walter, Klemperer, Haitink, Solti, Bernstein, Szell, Mehta, Karajan, Boulez, Wigglesworth, Kubelik and Rosbaud offered everything I was looking for.
Far better than any set.
Thank you for pointing out the Tabakov cycle. I do not own this, nor have I heard any part of it, but it has always struck me a as a true series of recordings of passion. I hope to find an affordable copy. It sems to be less of the corporate "Let's issue a Mahler cycle because it might make money", than a conductor and orchestra really wanting to preserve their ideas of this fabulous music.
You can have my set.
@@martinhaub6828 I am interested if you are willing to part with it at a reasonable price. We all love Mahler, so as a fellow Mahlerite give me your best offer!
Oh, yes, Inbal. I have the original (Denon) box set. I love the sound of the recordings and the playing is wonderful. I just love the sound of the brass. I have the Edo de Waard cycle too, and I like it very much as well.
At 15:11 - I have William Malloch's 'I remember Mahler' on the Kaplan Foundation CD. A really wonderful, generally warm-hearted insight into the person Gustav Mahler, I think.
I’m glad you mentioned the Tabakov, and I was afraid you were going to trash it! Instead you nailed it: it’s a fully committed and unique-sounding cycle. Truly in its own league, like an “alternate” or “bonus” Mahler cycle. Wobbly Eastern European diction (like Gergiev’s LSO recordings), sloppy but committed playing = exciting, and a conductor who’s a symphonic composer. I was very impressed with the Sixth and Seventh from this cycle, the latter of which had me on the edge of my chair with excitement in the finale. First and Third come pretty close too. Never a top recommendation, but fun to explore and appreciate. This might have gone in the same group as the Tennstedt, Neumann, and Abravanel cycles.
Thanks David, for this Mahler box set 'extra!' Made perfect Sunday morning breakfast listening / viewing. I fairly recently acquired Inbal's set, and have been, and still am enjoying his interpretations, very much. Very good recorded sound, too.
No one here is talking about the important stuff:
"Abnormal is fine, stupid is not"......This guy is a genius.
Your impression of Barbirolli is absolutely marvelous David😂
I am really enjoying a performance by Gary Bertini with the Kolner Runderfunk Sinfonia orchestra of Symphony No 3 for me it really is a wonderful performance, very different to most others I have heard, he seems to get some real passion and detail out of the Orchestra that just makes me want to keep on listening to it, the Brass and woodwind are wonderful
“Because it’s louder”.
Seems like a perfect argument for Mahler.
Nice to hear some positive words on the López Cobos M9. I was very impressed by it. Only heard the M1 from the De Waart set and found it excellent. Would like to explore the rest.
I was driving back from a trip to the supermarket, and I caught the last part of the Stokowski Mahler 8th on WQXR. (We're talking maybe 20 years ago.) I sat in the car in my driveway until the performance was over because I wasn't going to turn off the radio. I have no idea if it's the same performance you mention in the NY Phil. box. I do remember that the boys choir was from a NYC public school!
Any conductor or orchestra recording Mahler cycles as a vanity project is like anybody being allowed to climb Mt. Everest, no matter their skill level.
Exactly.
Fascinated by your praise of De Waart and Inbal. I was introduced to Mahler in a performance of the 5th by De Waart in San Francisco when I was in college, age 19 or so. I had no idea who Mahler was - I listened with the freshest possible ears. I was entranced and have been a Mahler geek ever since. But I have never heard his recordings of Mahler, so now I have to seek them out!
As for Inbal, I had some of his recordings in the early 90s, they were easy to find cheap on Denon in the used bins in Frankfurt . But they never worked for me and I eventually sold them off. Did I make a mistake!? lol! Thirty years on, I guess I have to give them another try if I come across them again. I have different ears now than I did then.
I want the NYPhil set....
Your voice impressions just made me laugh out loud...literally!!!! Great video!! :-)
Sorry for commenting again, but this is perhaps my favorite topic! Here is a fun story about how I acquired the Edo de Waart cycle last year (!): I commented on a TH-cam video of the Mahler 5 from this cycle, saying how I wish I could own these CDs someday and that they’re impossible to find. I got a comment back from someone in the Netherlands who happened to play 2nd violin in these de Waart recordings and he sold me (and personally mailed from the Netherlands) a NEW, unopened Edo de Waart box set just like the one you have. Amazing and generous man, and and awesome cycle! I agree about 6 and 9, but I think they’re still good, if a bit lacking. IMO this goes alongside Bertini as most “consistent” cycle. It was recorded live over the course of a couple years, and when you listen straight through the symphonies it sounds very coherent, like one long breath from beginning to end. The 4th and 8th compete with the best, to my ears.
WOW! What's the guys name (and address)?
@@HassoBenSoba just to respect their privacy, I won’t post that information publicly. But if you go to the TH-cam channel called Digital Classics and find the Edo de Waart Mahler 5 video then you can see our exchange of comments and maybe you can reach out to him via TH-cam.
@@HassoBenSoba never mind, it appears the comments have been deleted. I found a comment of his on the de Waart Mahler 6 video on the same channel, however
Fabulous weekend with Mahler x2 and Bruckner box sets. Do you sit with the scores when you listen? I could never spot that this is omitted or missed by a conductor, I’d never spot a snare substitute for a tambourine! I have started listening harder after watching your videos, Ma Vlast really impressed me, when you talked about Szell and how he lets the trumpets blitz to the front in the finale. At that time of the video I had just bought the Superb Kuchar box and yes there’s them trumpets, I listened to the Czech PO and Smetacek this morning and they are there too, not as powerful as Szell but there they are, I love the Smetacek, and am grateful when you point these things out on your videos, it gets me wondering, listening, investigating and saying “strewth, he’s right”. I’ve started listening much more focussed since your channel started, a big thanks for that. Tony 🏴
I do not usually listen with scores now, but I did when I was learning the works. Now I just sort of know them, or at least spots in them. If I love a work I'm curious about what it looks like on paper.
We *should* talk about those partial cycles (e.g. Levine, Kubelik, Kondrashin, et al.). A lot of them are really, really, really good.
At some point.
I've got 13 Mahler's cycles and Imbal on Denon remains one of my favorite ones.
Which collector doesn't like a discussion of rare or unusual recordings? The first talk cost me the Chailly box. I hope the recording industry takes note of what he is doing and lets Dave have excerpts.
They won't. They don't care.
I was intrigued by the Tabakov set and found them on Apple Music and ALSO found his own symphonies. Check them out. Interesting. I like the Bulgarian Dances on volume 1.
Count me very intrigued by the Tabakov cycle. Readily available to stream, and a rough-and-ready Eastern European performance would be a welcome respite from the usual Mahler fare. It’s fun to sample broadly, so I’ll keep on listening. Inbal is great too.
The Tabakov cycle is very unique, as Dave said. The singing sounds quite Eastern European with strange diction, and the playing is sometimes sloppy. But it’s so committed that it’s convincing. I find the 1, 6, and 7 to be absolutely fantastic, with a terrifying 6th finale, and a fast exciting-as-hell 7th finale. Oh, and their tam-tams sound very strange! Fun stuff. One of the most unique Mahler cycles out there.
@@ewilson712 that’s exactly the kind of review I was hoping to hear, thank you. I also want to check out Tabokov’s new recording of two much-maligned symphonies, Shostakovich 2 and 12.
@@AlexMadorsky I haven’t heard his Shostakovich yet, but Tabakov is also in the process of recording his own symphonies as a cycle, which is interesting. His style is pretty much a mix of Mahler and Shostakovich, with a pinch of Berg/Webern tossed in there.
@@ewilson712 so I gather from the reviews, which means his symphonies could be exciting or merely derivative. I look forward to judging for myself one day.
For those with Spotify: The entire NY Phil mixed cycle is available for streaming, and apart from a lot of audience noise I think this Mehta 2 is better than the Bernstein DG remake from about the same time.
I have not dug deeply to see if this interview/comedy routine can also be streamed.
Tachakov is available as well, De Waart is not.
Segerstam 3, 7, 8, 9, & 10 adagio are available from the Chandos set and a new 4th released in 2020 with the TURKU Philharmonic for anyone dying to know what the Finnish school of Mahler playing sounds like.
What about the Naxos Mahler Cycle with Polish orchestras? Conducted by Antoni Wit, Micheal Halasz and Robert Olson
Very patchy, although the Wit 8th is my reference version.
Wit's Mahler 8 is like Haitink's Shosti 12 for me.
They just invented the wheel new, in these performances.
It's these recordings that are my reason, to keep on listening.
The Tabakov cycle has some great moments and a few really interesting 'local effects'. However, as I remember things, the 8th was just awful. But rest of it was really quite good. I'm glad you mentioned Inbal's Denon cycle.
Hello Dave!
I would like to ask you to consider making videos about the best recordings of every movement of Mahler's symphonies.
Eg. The best recording of the first movement of the first symphony, the best recording of the sixth movement of the third symphony. etc. We can not get to much of Mahler can we?
Best wishes Fred.
Never. To be honest, I think that's a terrible idea. Performances need to be taken in whole. Movements are not independent works; and cannot be evaluated as such.
Was there ever a Neeme Jarvi box set? I recall a Jarvi Mahler 3 with a particularly outstanding first movement as well a as very well sung baritone version of Das Lied von der Erde featuring Thomas Hampson.
The first Inbal set has been reissued on the low-priced Brilliant Classics label.
David - awesome reviews, great insight and commentary! Do you have suggestions for headphones that are best suited to listen to classical ( specifically orchestral music 1880's-1930's: late romantic to early modern) Also headphone amp? What is some of your critical listening audio equipment?
Thanks very much for your kind remarks. I NEVER make audio recommendations. I can only say: listen, sample, and decide what sounds best to you. There really are no shortcuts. Think of it this way: everyone has different taste, and the reason everyone has different taste is because everyone hears differently, so audio preferences are at the root of all subjectivity.
Tabakov is a good choice, even though the orchestra is third division and vocal soloists are quite unusual. I heard him live in Lille conducting the 5th of Mahler, a very fine performance, lively and really enthousiastic.
You reviewed another Telarc mixed Mahler box - SACD, I believe. It included the Slatkin #2 recorded by Saint Louis Symphony when Telarc was starting out, and maybe Slatkin’s #1.
Oh, that Ronald "Ronny" Kinloch Anderson. A good yes-man of the old school. (Re: Barbirolli)
Our cup runneth over. DH❤️
Please help! I was watching your recent assessment of a whole lot of boxed sets of Mahler cycles but had to leave, and now I can't find it. I wanted to quote you on MTT's two-teat milking of (maybe it was) the Adagietto? And also your suggestion that the parts for Abravanel's percussion section were either reworked or just badly played. Would you please direct me to the correct link? Your comments, as always, are so quotable (and appropriate credit will of course be given).
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you!!
Next up: the Mahler Partial sets. Levine, Klemperer, Walter, Mitropoulos. I use my Tabakov set as a door stop. Maybe it's time to re-evaluate it.
Or maybe not.
Levine is absolutely superb, with one of the best 5s.
So many box sets. Like the sound of the new York one.
I came for the Mahler, stayed for the Barbirolli impression
When you say something is out of print, does it mean that its not available for streaming on tidal or Spotify either?
No.
I agree with Mr. Gyure. Mitropoulos is the man that made me a Shostakovich fan when I was a teenager too many years ago, and one hears too little of him these days. What can you review of Mitropoulos?
When I first listened to Kubelik’s NYP Mahler 7th, I was stunned at the treacle plodding pace of the first movement to be followed by more of the same elsewhere in the symphony. I remember wondering how can a conductor make such a dramatic shift in his thought process of a composition? Anyway, it is the only performance in the set that I will never listen to again. I guess I simply do not have the musical smarts to appreciate his approach which is perfectly fine by me….
I don't think "smarts" has anything to do with it. Kubelik could be wildly variable. That's all this proves.
Based on your Top 200 videos, here is your updated cumulative view count by Composer:
Mahler - 162.9k views
Beethoven - 142.9k views
Bruckner - 86.6k views
Sibelius - 60.1k views
Dvorak - 52.3k views
Mozart - 48k views
Brahms - 45.5k views
Tchaikovsky - 33.2k views
Shostakovich - 31.2k views
Stravinsky - 30.7k views
Schubert - 27.3k views
Romantic Groupings - 26.8k views
Haydn - 24.6k views
Strauss - 24.4k views
Rachmaninoff - 22.3k views
Prokofiev - 21.5k views
Bartok - 21.4k views
Wagner - 17.5k views
Bach - 16.9k views
Elgar - 13.3k views
Vaughan Williams - 12.4k views
Debussy - 12.1k views
Nielsen - 12.1k views
A few call-outs that you may be interested in: There are two composers that you do not feature as much as the others in your Top 5 ... though their videos constantly receive above-average views. They do not show up in your Top 5 due to the lack of quantity of videos. Though, for the few videos you have made about them, they consistently perform above average. There may be untapped potential for you in these names:
Debussy and Rachmaninoff
My goodness! Thanks for taking the time and trouble.
YES! More of both, please!
Speaking of DeWaart: I like his Harmonielehre (John Adams) a lot. David, did you ever do a talk on a piece by the minimalists? Or is this stuff for Tinnitus Classics starring Pipo?
No, not yet.
Off topic. Mitropoulos is in the NYPO set. SonyClassical REALLY needs to put out a COMPLETE Mitropoulos Box. If Sony can put out a Rodzinski box,Mitropoulos is even more important.
I agree. I have to think that the Rodzinski box means that a Mitropoulos is coming our way.
You asked for it. Now you got it
Regrettable that Steinberg's Mahler was not recorded, with the exception of the first. His concert performances of some of them (not all, unfortunately) were memorable.
This is from 2 years back and Im just now seeing this but I see Dave, much like myself, has been influenced by Telarc's amazing recorded sound.
Hello. Edo de Waart's cycle has bien reissued by Cobra classics some years ago. But it is now equally out of print. I own one of the Cobra boxes. I also own a recent cycle by Libor Pesek. The conductor is a very fine mahlerian of course, but the orchestra, National czech something, is not a top band. The brass section can be scruffy and sonorities are sometimes very strange. However, I like this cycle because it's fresh and honest.
The DeWaart cycle was produced under license by BMG. As they do not own the recordings, there is little or no chance that they will rerelease it.
Thanks. I thought so.
@@DavesClassicalGuide - other mitigating factors: now that Sony/BMG are the same company, they have Bernstein’s fab NYPO cycle in a Sony Masters budget box, as well as Zinman’s not-so-fab cycle in another SM budget box. No excuse to pay for licensing, especially on something as marginal as DeWaart’s Mahler.
I really want to know - What is your opinion on the Complete DG Mahler 18-cd Box?
That's another video, I think...
@@DavesClassicalGuide So I am looking forward to see it
Presto has that box on sale for $45.25 until August 9 along with a bunch of other Decca/DG box sets. I've got enough Mahler but picked up the Beaux Arts Trio box of Haydn's complete piano trios for $32.25.
@@Don-md6wn I have this box already, I just want to know that david think about it.
I recently purchased the Karajan complete 1938-1960 recordings- 112 cd box! For 80$! Simply divine!
Any thoughts about the incomplete cycle by James Levine? I love it.
Hurwitz did mention this. I got this as a secondary set for use on a car stereo, and I find it excellent. You will need a Second and an Eighth, and of course a Das Lied con der Erde. There are no misses.
Levine had a project underway with RCA when RCA cut it short before recording #2 and #8. Levine apparently has yet to record #2 or #8 with anyone. Considering that he is largely a conductor of opera, I would reasonably expect him to be excellent with either. I am surprised that he hasn't. His box is super-cheap.
How about the new box from the Berlin Phil ?
How about it?
@@DavesClassicalGuide It seems worthy of a mention or review. I'm assuming the sound is wonderful but would be interested in your opinion of the performances.
@@mthompson0977 I"m a bit Mahlered out right now, but thanks for the suggestion and I'll try to get to it. There's just so much else to do...
@@DavesClassicalGuide Perhaps a future attraction ! I'm enjoying the videos and reviews on the site.
Your version of the John Barbirolli interview was uncannily accurate!! Who is the annoying interviewer, who can't help 'yes, yessing' all the way through, though?! And Barbirolli sounds like he's got a mouth-full of marbles. Truly remarkable, as you intimated.
Any chance you could provide a link to the interview? Thank you in advance.
“None of these are in my top Mahler cycles, but then none of these are at the bottom either”… in a video entitled ‘More of the BEST and WORST Mahler cycles’! Zero marks for the title, 10 out of 10 for the content 😂
Oy!
Brilliant Classics has since reissued the Inbal cycle that Denon recorded in the very early digital era.
I has been out of print for years, unless it's just back recently.
Although the Levi 2nd is terrific, I do wish they had included the Slatkin/St. Louis instead. Both, because I think it is slightly better, and, maybe even more so, because no one gives Slatkin or St. Louis the love they deserve.
Agreed.
What about Ozawa?
What about him?
Actually I don't know. I would like to hear your opinion on this cycle. The first time I heard it, it aroused mixed feelings in me. Some of my favorite symphonies like the third and ninth didn't convince me. On the other hand, some of the ones I don't care so much, such as the sixth and seventh ended up calling my attention. It's not by far one of my favorite recordings, but I've always had an ambiguous relationship with this cycle.@@DavesClassicalGuide
@@compositortiagoprado That's very reasonable. I like a lot of it (3 and 9 are especially fine). 6 is a good performance, dimly recorded. 7 is excellent, 8 underplayed, 2 is much better in the Saito Kinen remake on Sony, and I prefer the DG No. 1 with Blumine. No. 4 is lovely but a touch bland; same with 5, but it's great to hear Boston play all of this music, and Ozawa is not by any means unworthy of respect.
Thank you so much. As I said this is a cycle that gives me mixed feelings but I see it getting little attention and I always thought it deserved more (in fact I saw some comments on some of the recordings individually). Great to hear something from someone whose opinion I respect.@@DavesClassicalGuide
So there really isn't going to be a Tinnitus Classics complete Mahler cycle? Including song cycles and your own completion of the tenth? Thanks for the update... I quite regret I never got myself the NY Phil box, but it was outrageously priced here in Europe at the time. Thanks for the update...
Speaking of second-rate orchestras and their Mahler performances: I once heard one by the Lansing (Michigan) Symphony. This orchestra is clearly not up to playing Mahler. When you consider that Lansing is only about 200 miles from Chicago (which has one of the world's finest orchestras) and Cleveland (it was great when Szell was the conductor, although I have seen little about the Cleveland Orchestra lately),,, or Detroit, just outside of commuting distance from Lansing... there are more fine orchestral players now than there ever have been, so if Detroit was second-tier not so long ago, it is good now even if Detroit, the city, is generally a place to avoid.
The Lansing Symphony tried to play Mahler's Second but just wasn't up to it.
unfortunately no Karajan on either the 1st vid or this follow up one!! When Karajan was on he was absolutely superb, but when he missed he tended to miss badly. You would think that he would have been a great Mahler conductor due to the fire that Karajan would inject into pieces, but that vision of him being a great Mahler conductor never really materialized. I guess Mahler's music just didn't click with Karajan's soul?
He never did a cycle. Check out the individual symphonies.
Yes, Leif Segerstam is an interesting person 😂
Yes -- Mahler's music is difficult to perform up to a satisfying standard. The demands are just too high for some provincial orchestra. Mahler pulled out the stops to get his musical ideal. See also Bruckner, and maybe Messiaen.
Claudio Abbado?.….....
Check out the first video.
That's a very interesting comment about the inmates running the asylum on different orchestras' proprietary labels. Fortunately I've almost always filtered my listening choices by the endorsements of critics that I trust, so I've not been exposed to much of that sort of thing. But it makes immediate sense that you'd need producers who know what they're doing from an established label, to weed out poor performances.
You're becoming a softie in your dotage.
Lol! Hit up the Currentzis takedowns!