KTM 300xc fouled plug, TBI start up procedure.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 เม.ย. 2023
- KTM 300xc start up rant. And not knowing what’s in the update when they run the update for the ECU is something the dealer should know. 🤷🏻♂️ If anyone out there knows what the latest update is for with the last numbers 1004 please let me know. Thanks for listening.
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Holy shit !! So glad to see you and many others posting about this issue. I just bought a new 2024 125 xc for my son . I did the first one hour then changed the oil like your supposed to and took my son out for his first ride. About two miles down the trail he stalled the bike went to start it and it would not fire up . Ended up pushing bike back to my truck took it to the dealership. They told me my son didn’t warm up the bike right and fouled the plug. Charged me $70 bucks and said it was his fault. This is some Bullshit.
Sorry to hear you having these problems. Seems like every bike is different. But it’s crap that if there’s a fix and the problem is in the ECU then I figured KTM should give the update to fix it for no charge. You can’t trust anyone with a hand shake anymore.
Nothing but problems with my 10k bike man I'm right there with you
Well sorry to hear that you're having problems. I haven't had to many lately. I had to have shoulder surgery so I'm out until maybe January. But some of the codes that are coming up I would think should be covered by KTM. Not have to pay every time there's a code issue. I realize its a new motor and all, but this is one of the reasons why I was hesitant to buy something other than a Japanese bike. But for me Honda just wasn't keeping up. the bike really rides well, and I do like it. Hope you can get it figured out.
Been rough seeing you have issues with a new bike for sure. And I 100% agree with you for the manufacturer taking care of issues and updates. I got a recall and service notice for the fuel pumps on both my Kawis saying I can bring them in for free replacement, but I lucky don't have any issues with mine, yet. That is how stuff should be in my opinion. Hope all of your issues are done and over and it rips flawlessly from now on dude. 👍
It’s not been to bad. Once I get the bugs worked out and understand a few more things about the bike. I’m sure it will be fine. The bike is fast no doubt. And it seems easy to ride.
Thanks for the video!
Today on my debut lap I was also disappointed. After a few miles the bike simply doesn't work. Now I need to go to a KTM dealer to fix the problem. (BRAZIL)
Well that suck to have problems. Make sure they give you the latest update. And ask if there was any other codes that they cleared. Change the plug to either BR7 or BR8IEX plug if you can get them. I haven’t had a problem sense.
Sorry for your issues Bob.
Oh im just ranting on something that i think KTM should own up to and not charge me to fix. And you would think the dealers would know more about the products there selling. The bike runs better now.
Amen brother. I have the same issues with my 300xc. Eating plugs like candy and dealer charging me to update the ECU to fix KTMs shitty fueling.
I ride the Burn, Hood River, and Mt Hood OHV areas. Just a fun bike to have on day trail rides.
Well I would like to ride in the hood. I’ve only done a poker run there a few years ago.
I’m heading to browns camp in the morning. That’s where I mostly ride. I ride by myself so I don’t go to far out.
Got a 2024 husquvarna te 150 , put 3 hours on it this week end motor run flawless , only thing i have done , everytime its back cold i let it idle and not touch it until the top of the radiator is kind hot but not HOT HOT . I start slowly even hot i ride thru gear ! Minimum 1/4 gas , clear it up on the clutch and then i slowly do little power band hit , and after a little time a ride it like i stole it ! I just make damn sure its hot !
Same bike as yours. Dealers don't have a clue about the update on the bikes until they plug it into the KTM server. So they did, it needed P104 map, it did clean up the power band, but the bike still stutters on the 1/8 - 1/4 throttle position. The likely issue is a faulty crankcase pressure sensor. It's only 40-45 bucks, takes 5 min to change and it's been on back order nationally from KTM for the last few months. Bike starts (BREIX 7), runs fine, just not smooth off the bottom. I start the bike with the yellow knob pushed in, til it's over 100 degrees, blipping it periodically, before hopping on for a ride. Not sure if certain oils or mixes cause fouling. FYI- I'm using dumond Tech at 60:1. The bike also has an RK tech head. Also will try the JD jetting fueler, but the bike doesn't need it as much I would like to give it a shot. Last item - I'll buy 2 CCPS as KTM has back ordered these in the past.
Hey Don thanks for the input. I did change the plug to the BR8EIX. It seems to be running just fine now. I think it's still a tad bit rich but that's ok. Once the bike is warm it seems to be fine. I haven't noticed any stuttering. and I should like you said, maybe get some of the sensors on order in case I need them. But I will say that I think this bike is awesome. Its just going to take a little time to get the qwerty things about the bike worked out. And maybe change the dealer I deal with LOL.
Great video chain 👍🏻
I think we got it pretty much figured out now.
So damn glad I switched to Beta years ago.
I looked at those also and, well here I am. 🤷🏻♂️
The map update was to take care of the power valve blink code you got if you hit the starter when the bike was already running. Annoying, but didn't cause any issue. Deal absolutely should know about this and shouldn't charge to do the update. Fouling a plug should be rare on this bike but I've heard people saying not to let them sit and idle for to long as you need to clear them out kind of like a carb bike. On the xcw and previous gen xc models with TPI you could foul a plug but it requires you to do several cold starts in a row, like start the bike then shut it off and repeat 4 or 5 times. On cold engine starts the ecu pumps more oil to lube the system, several restarts in a row and yo get a fouled plug but it is exceptionally rare. Hope the bike treats you right from now on.
Morgan on highland cycles "i wait for warmth in top o radiator"
(It sounds right what you said, in fl likely warm up tad quicker)
"get the goddam thing fixed". This kinda stuff pisses me off too. Just fouled the second plug on my brand new 23' TE300 and still haven't figured out why. I got 2 rides on the last plug. Washed the bike, started it, and she was smoking like hell. Died, wont start. Luckily this hasn't happened on the trail. Nice vid
Any more problems with your plug? I got 4 rides then the plug on my 23 TX300 fouled. You put the iridium plug in ?
I had issues with spark plugs when I first got my 23 250sx, I was running 92 octane at 60:1 mix, did some reading in the manual and found out you’re supposed to be running 95 octane. Also it’s a 2-stroke don’t idle it very long, I fire it up let it run for 15-20 seconds and ride it easy until it’s about up to temp. I haven’t had issues since I followed the manual and not letting it idle too long.
Same thing happened to me, looked at the manual, it says 95 octane for the 23 model, haven’t had issues since
@@Outdoorsnmotorsby it saying 95 it means ron not 95 octane. this equates to 91 octane in the us
For example on my skidoo snowmobile it has a warm up mode where you can't touch the throttle until it is up to operating temp. So that's how my thought process is on a new fuel injected bike.
I had the same situation with my 2022 TE250i. It was running rich and fouling plugs. This is what I ended up doing.
Obtained a TSP/ERM and installed their newest mapping. Did the throttle body idle screw mod. Installed a S-3 high compression low elevation head. Installed a Trail Tech digital fan kit to monitor engine temperature while warming up. I’m using a FMF TurbineCore 2.1 spark arrestor. I’m using a NGK BR7EIX spark plug.
My bike now runs great, does not foul plugs and makes so much power it’s ridiculous.
I agree that you should not have to spend another $1k to get a $10k bike to run reliably and correctly but this is what I had to do.
I’m glad that you were able to do those things to make it better. These things seem to be so temperamental many people can have the same set up and they run different. I have only fouled 1 plug. I just changed they way I warm it up and I did change to a BR8EIX plug and that’s it. Runs like crazy. I also did have the latest ECU update. But I’m not sure if it was that either. Now I have some funky code when it idles but goes away when while I’m riding. So until the bike takes a shit and it still rips. I’m going to leave that tape over the hour meter. Lol.
I've fouled my '23 300 XC twice now. The first time after I washed, to warm it up and dry out the engine area and forgot to push in cold start and it fouled in maybe 3-4-5 minutes, wasn't paying that much attention to the time. The second time after one ride it fouled pretty much straight away at start up on the next ride with cold start in. Very odd, but on reflection I am running a pro-moto billet sparky and that screen looks like it's gonna need to be cleaned every ride or two at max. I am running 56:1 (ratio rite has 28:1 for 2.5 gallons, makes it easy when filling a 5) motorex and a hotter plug. @Truenorthmotos is running 50:1 same plug no problems. I may go to 60:1 and am changing my warm up procedure.
Well warm it up like a four stroke. Let it idle for about 1-2 minutes, then hit the throttle a few times to clear it out. when the case gets warm to the touch you should be good to go. I'm running 60:1 motorex and BR8EIX plug. Haven't had any problems sense. 92 octane clear pumped gas.
my 22 150 xc-w was fouling plugs too. I started using the cold start lever. Word is, it leans out the mixture when cold which helps keep the bike from fouling out the plug. Im assuming the same thing exists for the TBI. I agree its annoying that these are so temperamental. I mean its fuel injected for crying out loud, why isnt there a temp sensor to sort this out?? I had TSP flash my ecu so im doubting this will be an issue for me anymore.. but i always carry a spare plug just in case.
I also had my ECU updated. And sense the video, I haven’t had any trouble. I do now have a code that only shows up when it’s sitting at idle. But when riding I don’t see any code. So therefor unless the bike takes a shit. I’m ignoring the lights. That’s why I carry black take. Haha. Well it sounds like you have it figured out. Best of luck.
2.5 hours, stock 23 250xc suddenly fouled a plug miles into somewhere that doesn't allow riding.. Didn't have tools, took a team of people to retrieve it. Embarrassing situation, I pride myself on keeping maintenance up so I don't end up "that guy" who messes up the ride.
Well I could mention about the ride first. But that’s embarrassing enough. But these new bikes are just not dependable. I’m having to ride with a few tools I never needed before. But on the flip side it’s the best bike I’ve rode in many years. So I still scratch my head. Nobody wants to be “that guy” but shit happens. At least you didn’t use a helicopter. 🤔
4th plug on my 2024 125xc. I’ve had 5 new KTM/Husqvarna’s since 2014. I have never fouled a plug on any of them. Not feelings good about this new one.
Well these aren’t like the old bikes that we used to know.
Need to start it and let it idle for a minute or more. The clean it out until the case is warm. Then you can take off. At least that’s what I have found out. If you don’t, every time you throttle before letting it sit for a minute then it resets the ECU. And it doesn’t do the checks it needs to do. Then you can foul the plug. 🤷🏻♂️
Did you get your fouled plug issue sorted out? I'm on a 2024 GG EX300 TBI, and am experiencing the same issue.
Well, that's a bummer. Sucks to buy a bike and have issue's. But I think if you start the bike with the cold start or not, allow it to idle for at least 1 minute before you throttle it. then after a minute or so you can start to clear it out. I think that will do the trick. the ECU needs to do some checks before you throttle it up. So I have been told. I also changed the plug to a BR8IEX. Same heat range as the stock plug. I dont know what the GG uses though.
Start bike using the yellow plug, run until 100 degrees or there about, then drop to normal mode. The problem is when running with the yellow plug is the ECU dumps more oil if you turn off the bike that oil sits in the plug and fouds them. Always run it after you have turned that off or dont use it not needed. Its a total pain. Consider changing your plug to the resister version br7EIX was mine, it made a huge difference they just dont foul as easily.
Thank you for the info. I also have talked to a couple others and they are saying the same type of thing. My ranting was really not about the bike but the dealer not answering my questions. The bike is awesome. Thanks for watching. I’ll try that plug next also.
the ECU cannot dump more oil, this is not an oil injected bike, its a premix bike.....
@@joshmundyMaybe he means more oil via more fuel (richer mixture)…which would encourage fouling if not burned out as he stated.
@@mikew1800 sure possibly. Typically plugs fouling is due to too much fuel /rich running bike which cools cylinder too much to promote oil burn off
I own the 24 ktm 300 6 days and it’s done 6 hours with one plug down!
Haha. Hopefully that’s all. My advice is to just let it warm up until the case gets warm before you take off. Then blow it out before you get rippen on it. Have fun.
The dealership set your bike up to fail. And they paint the parts to make sure nothing was adjusted, Warranty is b*******, And if your power valve starts leaking it's an easy fix, Use a little silicone As a gasket on the power valve cover. My bike rips, 2023 gas gas EC250. I already ripped my knee apart with it. Im healing up and wanting to go ride again. Abbott creek by prospect Oregon is a great place to ride.
Well they either set it to fail or they were just stupid to begin with when they put it together. This bike does rip also. I tore rotator cuff in both shoulders. Been recovering the last 4 months. Sorry I didn’t get back to reply sooner. I’ll be back riding around end of January. Can’t wait.
2024 gasgas here, fouled plug after 7 hours. Ridiculous. Ktm has an issue and they know it. I will try Slavens recommendation of hotter plug
Put your hand on both radiators and you will know when the thermostat opens, Do not delete the thermostat. Your bike needs it. In our cooler weather it will not warm up without it.
Does the manual not have a warm up procedure in it?
There’s only a on line manual. I did down load the manual. It’s 150 pages or so.
To answer your question. It tells you how to start the bike. But no details on anything after that. I did change my plug and I warm it up almost like a four stroke. I wait after about a minute or so and give it small revs to clear it out. Once the case starts to get warm then you can ride. It only takes a few minutes really. But don’t rev it out from the start like the old school 2 stokes.
Few things:
1 - sounds like your complaints are with dealer and not the bike. It sounds like your dealer is incompetent and you are getting the bad end of it. 1004 code fixes the 5 flash error code from pressing start button while bike is running. It also cleans up low throttle fueling.
2- your warm up explained is how I was informed to do it from a reputable KTM mechanic. The temp/ air pressure sensors needs 60 seconds of no throttle input to set to current outdoor settings. Every time throttle input is done it resets the countdown to set the parameters. You can’t compare a carbureted bike to a fuel injected bike, the startup procedure between a 1969 Camaro and a 2022 Camaro are very different.
3 - fouled plug could be from warm up, could be fuel:oil ratio and possibly the type of oil used. Flashpoint based on the type of riding you do is also important plus quality of fuel used. Plus before the 104 update the bike ran rich on low throttle / idle so it is known to foul plugs if started and idled too much.
Email me if you need more info. I haven’t fouled a plug yet and done a lot of research on these bikes since I had one of the first in the PNW
Hey thanks for the info. I did talk to another person and he says the same as you about warm up. I did finally here from my dealer which again they said the same thing you did for the code.
So I think I’m good to go. Just did a muddy ass race in prineville over the weekend and it ran awesome.
I still have the parts I made for you. Haha.
Let me know which race you will be at next and I’ll make sure to look you up if I’m there.
@@1Rustychain Glad you got it sorted out. Hit me up with any questions - also just got an upgraded stator for the bike so im testing for better lights and such. Not sure on next event but ill keep in touch!
Thanks for the info guys. No lights currently. I had the 5 flashing lights when i accidentally bumped the button.
I was told I was going to have to pay for the latest flash with a software fee.
But they then hooked up to it and it was a free mandatory software update.
I'm still running a stock plug, for two reasons.
-1 I haven't fowled one
- 2 I seen a video that Kyle brotherson posted on dirtbikechannel, saying there is a plug length difference between stock and the BR7EIX which is why ⅛-¼ throttle is surgy because the stock plug is considered a long reach plug and NGKs are shorter.
So I have two brand new BR7EIX plugs, running the stock one
@@joeyevans6118 Hey Joey, if you look up the specs the BR7EIX and the stock BR8 that came in the bike are the same thread length. You can look at other BR8 plugs and they are all 3/4” 19mm thread length.
@@joeyevans6118 the update should always be free if it’s a ktm update. If not possibly that’s a dealer just trying to make money. As far as plug goes, the stock BR8ES and the BR8EIX are identical in size. If you don’t believe me, look it up from NGK data sheets. Only difference is the core size , I believe it’s core size but it’s the thickness of the tip, which the iridium is smaller because it’s a finer point. Or set them side by side and compare for yourself. The most important length is from bottom of threads down, that’s the part that goes into the engine. Now a BR7 is a hotter plug than stock. Some people have tried it and go back and forth on what to run. Issue with a hotter plug is it can ignite the fuel sooner that needed. Use at your own risk but I have never had an issue with a BR8EIX in my 2023 300xc or my YZ250X
TBI bikes are completely different than TPI when warming them up. The TBI bikes run rich, so as soon as you start it you can either use the yellow knob, (which I do not) or just give it a little bit of throttle and hold it there for about 15 seconds, you can also go back and forth with the throttle but don't "gas it" just slightly give it throttle then back off...back and forth. After about 15 to 20 seconds of that, get on the bike and start riding it, but don't ride it full out. Just ride it slowly keep it at lower RPM's and as it starts to warm up you can get on it a little more and more as you go. After about 3 minutes you can go 3/4 way you normally ride, after about 7 minutes game on! If it's super cold out, then yeah, it might take longer. I work on bikes and this is how I do all the TBI's and never have an issue. Enjoy.
Thanks for your input. Sense I did that video. I have had some great info. I do warm up the bike almost like you said. But I start the bike, sometimes I use the yellow knob and sometimes not. But I let it idle for about a minute or two before I throttle it up. My understanding is the ECU needs to do some checks before you blow it out. I haven’t had any trouble sense doing that. I also changed the plug to the BR8EIX. I don’t think I need the hotter plug unless you like to put around more often. Thanks for watching.
@@1Rustychain Sounds great, RustyChain! Glad you got it worked out. Have a great ride, be safe.
@@onthethrottle7104 Thanks for watching. Have fun and be safe also.
This all fine and dandy until you race a hair scramble with a dead engine start.
@@davidsollenberger2998 They allow you to warm up your engine - that is a non issue.
I have not fouled a plug since. Again start the bike do not touch the throttle let it warm up to 150. These bikes run rich on startup not lean. Simply take your plug out and look at it.
Yep that’s exactly what you have to do. If you keep blipping the throttle before it has sat at idle for at least a 1-11/2 minute then the ECU needs to reset. It has to do checks and each blip it gets interrupted. I even had a code for ignition circuit fault for the last 2 races I did. Now it cleared itself. 🤷🏻♂️but I’m getting to learn the bike. Now I just need to get back on it after my rotator cuff surgery. I don’t think I’ll be back on it until Dec.
Did you ever figure out or fix your bike?
Nothing that I can say, this was wrong. I mainly changed on how to warm the bike up. I do have some funky codes and one went away by itself. But so far, I haven't fouled a plug sense the video. The bike seems to haul ass as intended. I just peel off the black tape from the hour meter once in a while to see what new code I got..lol.
Give em hell rode 2strokes all my life had to cr,s but when they came out with all this stuff on the 2strokes I said hell with that went 4stroke not knocking the new 2strokes I just didn't want to deal with all that stuff im satisfied with my 350 4stroke I do miss a lot of things thar the 2strokes did but just learned how to ride a 4stroke
How do you foul a plug on a tbi?? You warm it up like a 4 stroke, the ecu reads the bikes temp and does the proper mixture Automatically. You dont touch the throttle at all! I would get a therm cap for the radiator, if its under 50 degree, use choke. Let it idle until the top of radiator is hot.
You are correct. It’s easy to foul a plug not knowing the procedure. Coming from an 03 Cr250, to this new bike is like night and day. The CR you can throttle right away. No ECU involved like todays bikes. The ECU of todays bike for KTM needs to do checks before you throttle. That’s why you let it idle for a minute or so. If you don’t the ECU resets every time you throttle, which can cause the plug to foul. That’s what I understand anyway. Haven’t had any problems sense.
I do not believe there is any issue with the bike it just needs to be set up to run, Not have to buy an expensive ECU, I put a high compression head on no ECU and my bike runs great. It'll adjustment screw and adjust the air fuel mix and you're good, I adjusted my power valve out flush for my 250. Rips right now. Screw KTM
Start the bike up do not touch the throttle let it warm up to 150° Then go ride. It has an oil pump. I'm start up it pumps more oil, You touch the throttle you're giving it more oil, ECU is controlling everything. Let it do so. I have ATPI bike it did the same thing. Don't touch the throttle, let it warm up 21 150°. Oil injected is oil injected. Is only difference between TBI and TPI Is fuel injector location.
Xcs are premix
Learn your bike, Do not talk to dealers, There are a bunch of car salesman, they will take your money and lie to your face. Hope to see you at John's peak sometime Medford Oregon
I would really like to come down and ride Johns Peak again. They have great trails. Only thing is its a 5 hour drive from me. Just wish I could have rode the last time I was there LOL.
Man, everything you said is completely JUSTIFIED and it sucks that you have to just figure the crap out on your own basically. These bikes should not be so damn finicky that you gotta pull this and push that and wait til you reach goldilocks temp. etc... It should be simple enough just like your CR. I guess thats the price we pay with todays emission stifled 2 strokes. Not sure if the TPI bikes suffer the same issues. I imagine KTM will improve on the software in the future. I will say that the guys i know that run these bikes have no problems running stock plug and 60:1 as well as some using VP race mix 50/50. They dont seem to follow any ritual when starting. They start it up and it idles while they put on gloves, helmet, goggles and then putt around a min. to build heat before digging in and clearing it out. Good luck man, im sure youll get it figured out.
Hey thanks for watching. I hope im not bashing the bike. That wasn't my intent. But you would think that you should be able to just jump on and go. Well if you saw the video of when I never left the start line I said thats what happens when you have to much electronic stuff. But what do you do. Its like buying cars sometimes theres to much electronic stuff involved. I guess im still old school and opening a manual valve has less problems than wondering if the solenoid is working. I wish some of the dealerships made it a point to know what there selling. But like you said ill get it figured out. I do love the bike.
Manufacture says let bike idle until 55c or radiator hot. I did that and fouled my plug after 40hrs.
My friends who also ride TPI's follow the same procedure as a carb bike and are up to 200hrs without fouling a plug. Guy on the dirtbike chanel does the same and has never fouled a plug.
Go figure.
It’s just a luck of the draw as to when it will happen I guess. I haven’t had any problems after changing the plug to the BR8EIX, but time will tell.
My impression is if the dealer can get the bike out the door, he can get the owner to pay for any issues they want to resolve later. Nothing personal- just business.
I’ll be buying a carb bike and stay away from all this technology 🙄
Haha. Well it was a big jump for me. But the bike does rip and coming from my 06 CRF450x and my 03 CR250. It is really smooth. I started the CR the other day me I couldn’t believe how much the vibration was compared to the new bike. In video where I four the plug at a race, I do say this is what happens when you have to much electronic shit. There’s something to be said about keeping it simple stupid. Lol.
Just bought a yz250x for these EXACT reasons...... I owned a 03 CR250 as well. Sold it 7-8 years ago. I REALLY wanted the KTM this go around strictly because I love 2 strokes and wanted the "best"..... but god damn if there isnt a TON of these issues going on. Not even issues but stupid design choices as well. Like no kick starter and the new fuel pump in the center of the 2024 not picking up fuel was another thing that I thought was just sooooo stupid. Like how does this make it out of the factory like this? It feels like KTM is just living off hype and the fact that there isnt enough competition in the 2 stroke world. So I bought an "old" 2023 Yamaha.... The thing is a fucking champion. Pulls so much harder and for longer then my CR did. Dead reliable and could afford the smart carb and a stabilizer and full Luxon clamp set for the money I saved buying the Yamaha. I regret nothing about my decision. If you are too tired to kick your bike and its that much of an issue you need to go home before you get hurt. If vibrations are enough to ruin your ride you need to quit dirt bikes and go buy a sewing machine. Thats how I feel and every single KTM rider I meet gives me shit for it. Then I come home and see this video in my feed and im totally vindicated in my feelings and that much happier that I bought the YZ. I hope you get it all sorted man! I grew up in Oregon City and rode Browns Camp and Mt Hood my entire youth. I feel for you bro. If I had spent the money that a KTM costs and had those problems (especially after considering the YZ for so long) I would be so furious about it. The funny thing is is that it seems like KTM guys treat them as disposable and I feel like KTM knows this and is exploiting the shit out of it..... Ask yourself when the last time you saw a 2009 KTM on the trail vs how long since you saw a 2009 anything else...... Im willing to bet you have seen many more Hondas and Kawis and Yamaha's from 10 years ago then you have KTMs. Thats how I feel about it. I think the brand and its BULLSHIT illusion of competition (KTM/Husky/GG) in the 2 strokes has given the brand WAY too much pull because people dont actually have options like they think they do. So I bought the Yamaha, I regret nothing.
Well said. I was also thinking about the Yamaha. But I thought everyone I race has one so they can’t be that bad. It’s a nice bike but not ever sure what’s coming next. What code an I getting this time? Is it going to blow up? How much money do I need to spend this weekend to ride it? Suck having to think about those things. I also have a CRF450x. It’s been rock solid for 17 years. 1 valve job 1 piston. Maybe I should just buy the Yamaha too.
@@1Rustychain If you can ride your CR and still love it.... then you will be very happy with the Yamaha. I hope you figure it all out man. Regrets with bikes suck.
Let me redo this last statement....... The Yamaha is better then the CR in EVERY way for offroad. The suspension, gearbox and ergonomics are all WAYYYY better then my old CR. The CR has that savage hit and upper scream. The Yamaha is more chill but pulls for MUCH longer. It doesnt have the same bark as the CR but it has more bite in the end. If that makes sense. What I meant originally is that if you can give up the counterbalancer in the KTM and have a more "raw" 2 stroke then you will love the Yamaha. I will admit that I spent $300 for a hydro clutch for the Yamaha because that was something I just didn't want to live without. The gearbox and the lower compression make the Yamaha much much much more friendly in the woods then the CR ever was. I only ride trails and thats all I ever did with my CR. The CR was such a well made bike a but a light switch wheel spinning mx bike all day. The Yamaha is much more chill and smooth like the KTM. Still has more snap though overall. I attribute that to the Yamaha still being carbed and mechanical powervalve. Anyways. I'm sure you can figure all this out for yourself. I'm just saying that many of the downsides that the CR had offroad are not present on the YZ. The suspension is a billion times better then the CR ever was, at least for offroad. Looks like you have been putting on some miles on the KTM though, at least in the last few months so maybe you got it all sorted.