Dr Grande already had me at 35 year old exchange student teaching folk dancing at the University of Cali in Berkely; WTF We already knew he was a nutjob Sounds like the counselor tried his best; I believe the I part was the final cut they should have stopped there, yet the government decided to add the 11 part , which served to water it down in my humble opinion.
I’m a current social work student and I have to say, this is THE most comprehensive and beneficial TH-cam channel I have found. I’ve discussed some of the topics in your videos with my supervisor many times, and I am grateful for the content you are creating and sharing. I’m particularly focused on sexual health and are one of the only channels with information regarding sexual components of mental health. Thank you Dr. Grande!! Ps do you think you could ever film a video in regards to prospective clinicians and some objective “advice” (for lack of better term) to consider? Thank you!
@ Angela Bennet, your comment on sexual health within mental health issues was insightful. That could raise a lot of issues. I’m in tech w/ roommate a Master’s in social work but is in children services. Thanks for your interesting comment
You should take a look at the channel sexplanations! Dr. Doe doesn't focus specifically on the relationship between sexuality and mental health, but it does come up as she's all about openness and sex being part of the whole person. There's also a podcast that's much more in-depth, and certainly plenty of excellent resources. And she's just so energetic and delightful! I watch her videos when I need a little boost. 😁 (Your comment was a year ago so may no longer be pertinent, but others might also benefit. Enjoy! 😎)
I second that request. I have been bingeing your videos and wondering if there were any videos that would offer advice in that realm. Thanks Dr. Grande!
When I first started my studies to become a counselor, it was this subject that almost scared me out of it. Feeling like we could be held civilly responsible for another persons actions was alarming. I don't feel like this subject has been covered enough in my studies, so I really appreciate your video.
What about the therapist's safety? Are they members of the public? In Delaware, 10/2015, a wonderful psychiatrist with whom I worked for over a decade was murdered in her home down the road from me. The most important thing is to consider all possibilities and protect yourself as a clinician. I would rather be sued than stabbed to death... or to that someone related to my client was murdered. I work with dangerous people...but not on my turf. Clinicians, be safe!!!!!!!
That’s also understandable. Depends on the patient I’d predict. Wouldn’t blame anybody for making the decision it’s in their best interest for their life to not say anything.
But only if the patient is deemed a danger to the therapist logically and rationally. If this is an emotional decision the same argument can be made against the clinician that was used against the police.
Thank you Dr. Grande. This video assisted me in doing an assignment regarding Tarasoff in my advanced legal degree. You make excellent points, both about the legal side, and about the perspective of the clinician.
Wait, why did they go after Dr. Moore? That Dr. Paulson or whatever was the one who specifically undid all the measures Dr. Moore was putting into place!
wow! the tarasoff case laws 1 and 2 were obviously based on the conduct and entirety of this case. How horrible that he was forced to break pt confidentiality, still receive punishment, and case laws were still created after everything was said and done anyways. @@Strongbabiix3
I'm a psych nurse. Love & binge on this channel. 😍 No 1 is Like Dr. Grande. Very fresh professional outlook on many topics. Beats all the gossip & documentary channels. I love the dark comic shades & ironies. 😎 ⛱
In my counseling program and traineeship, we were taught to go over the informed consent agreement very clearly and get a signature at the beginning of working with the client. Then if there is an issue later, you have disclosed the duty to protect.
Thank you so much for your candor. I am an MSW student and we are discussing this case and all of its implications. It is refreshing to hear a professional speak openly of the fear and anxiety that comes with the possible liabilities that we are open to. I look forward to watching more of your videos and I plan to recommend them to my cohorts. Please keep them coming!
As a layperson, I can understand why this would be a huge dilemma for Mental Health Professionals walking that thin grey tightrope. This is a compelling subject, thank you, Dr. Grande.
This is fascinating- not long after the Tarasoff opinions were issued I took a Law and Medicine seminar while in law school. My seminar paper was on the malpractice liability of psychiatrists - most earlier cases involved liability for physical injuries - from ECT etc. I focused a lot on Tarasoff - my conclusion was that the standard of liability for a duty to warn should be gross negligence- this seemed to strike the proper balance - I knew about the conviction in the criminal case. But had no idea what had happened after that until this video - thanks for another great video!
Thank you @ doowop54 for your legal perspective. I see your response is 1 yr. Appreciate your explanation of intersection of mental health experts legal constraints.Greetings from Chicago
This is a very grim subject. I do think everyone, no matter what their profession, has a duty to warn a potential victim of a crime against them. But when you read about the Genovese case you can see that it's not the case. People don't want to get involved, therapists don't want to lose their license to practice, etc. Lives just aren't as important as the grey areas. Thank you, Dr. Grande. I wish you a lovely Easter with your family. 🌹👍
:/ the question is whether it actually does any good. * The client who is aware of the legislation will avoid telling the therapist of their intensions * Unless they aren't real intensions, in which case you potentially make them more real by not talking about them * Or harm the client * Which might make them more dangerous to people around them
There is more to the Genovese case than we were taught. She did not die alone. She died with a good friend, and neighbor. They interviewed her daughter i believe she is still alive...Her being Ignored was a better story.
This is spectacularly informative and is currently helping me with ideas for a group project for my Final in Psych Ethics. We are to design our own ethical dilemmas, demonstrate the steps to ethical decision making; as well apply the applicable standards and principles. I find the Tarasoff case so very interesting. The various complexities, and the almost palpable human frailty in all parties involved, make this landmark case thought provoking on professional, ethical, and moral levels. Thanks for this, and for all of your " scientifically informed" videos. I find it so admirable that I didn't seem to pick up on even the slightest bias. I have so much to learn and I love that I can actually enjoy to doing so.
I cant express enough how much I enjoy these anecdotal stories, I find them fascinating and I love your delivery. Please keep them coming. Much Thanks, my friend!
Well, i bet to Tarasoff family as well as the Moores that story and its outcome do not seem anecdotal! That story is a pure tragic, what is more tragical is that the justice again hadn't been served. I wish Dr Grande could dwell more on the topic of the reasons and persons who had come up to that brilliant idea of simply throwing that manic Hindu out of the country instead of giving him a proper at least 25 years before being parole eligible.
I began therapy in 2010. I appreciate that the clinician informed me that if I reported intentions to harm others or myself, he would be required to report it. I would always prefer to harm myself, never others . I have a good relationship with him and feel safe reporting my true feelings. Good therapists rock. Thank you
I remember Tarasoff from law school. We focused on the case and not what happened to the killer. It is tragic that he was permitted to leave the country. He killed a young person in her prime and left her family bereft. The result, he was permitted to go home to India. What kind of stupid lawyer would marry him? I hope she is still alive! But then, one wonders if there are cultural differences at play here.
@@DuckiesDad08 I have heard of this before. People have done stranger things. People marry prison inmates. I believe many do not think that what happened to another will ever happen to them.
@@meggallucci5300 True, but India is another county. What’s the likelihood she heard of him, and what’s his incentive for disclosing he did something so horrible?
@@DuckiesDad08 Yes, I suppose he might have lied to her about what he did. He should not have had that opportunity, but he moved a long way from California, and India is an entirely different culture, of course.
I love how you provide the data to look at information ourselves.I used to go with a freind to the Law Library at ASU and learned alot more by reading journals of forensic science and psycopathy .Great video once again sir.
I appreciate your videos and insight, Dr. Grande. Do you ever find your mind taken over by the grim topics and stories? How do you decompress? I went to college with the intention of working in the field of forensic psychology. I ended up going a different route and sometimes wonder if I would have been affected by the heavy subject matter. Thank you for posting!
I think in our profession we have both a duty to warn and protect our clients as best we can even if we don't know that there is a victim. Still we should know the laws that govern how we practice in order to protect both ourselves and the client. Thanks for sharing!
I found this video to be extremely helpful! Dr. Grande you did wonderful in explaining all the details about the case and other concepts such as applying it to the mental health field and other important things to consider from a therapist approach. Out of all the videos on this topic, i found yours to be the most educational and well explained. Thank you for what you do! Your work and time is greatly appreciated
This video spends nearly all of its time considering the rights of the clinician/therapist and the client, and virtually none considering the rights of the threatened potential victim. This reflects reality. I was "warned" about an impending situation, but given ZERO help or defense by anyone in the system. The client could not be restrained or held against his will, the police would do nothing until after a hostile act was committed, the employer involved would not provide any security, or release me from the job which required interaction with this person. Everybody just said, "Call 911 if anything happens." Fortunately, the threat never materialized, but I spent several weeks in a state of terror, and I still feel unhappy about the lack of concern for potential victims. I had no rights. The mentally ill person had many, many rights. And this video is mainly concerned with the rights of the therapists, and a concern that they might be sued if their client actually does harm someone.
Wow. That puts a helluva lot of responsibility on the therapist! And yes, grey areas abound! I know you did alot of research on this one. Incredibly interesting!
I'm a psych nurse. Love & binge on this channel. 😍 No 1 is Like Dr. Grande. Very fresh professional outlook on many topics. Beats all the gossip & documentary channels. I love the dark comic shades & ironies. 😎 ⛱
What a fraught topic. One central question that you mentioned is, how good are therapists at predicting such dire and rare outcomes as murder? Do we know how good they are at predicting suicide, in cases where someone has expressed suicidal intent but hasn't made previous attempts? If their predictions are useless, they shouldn't bear responsibility.
Have you done a video on the Gabriel Fernandez case? That 8 year old boy who was tourtered and killed by his mother and step father and who was failed by the system? I'm curious to hear your thoughts
Very sad story if you look at it from outside. Some people knew what was going to happen and did nothing. Kind of reminds me of "Chronicle of a Death Foretold" by Gabriel Garcia Marquez when a couple of would be murderers were looking for a guy they had to kill and all the town knew about it and did nothing, never even warning the guy. Everyone assumed somebody else already did. And an innocent life was taken and the murderer walked. And Dr. Moore became the scapegoat...
If you listen closely to Dr Grande's recap of the situation, this is not entirely true. In the other country, they were told what he wanted to do and still he was let free. He returned to the US, did what he wanted, was tried and let go on a technicality and tried for manslaughter WHAT. He was able to go back to his native country scotfree and who knows what happened to him in India for all we know he is still alive there and doing whatever he wants to do.
Dr. Grande, this is one of my favorite videos from your channel. I watch it from time to time but didn’t comment until now.🙂 What a fascinating case. Although this case happened many years ago its relevance still persists. Outstanding review, thank you.❤
Wow....terrible, poor Tarasoff. It seems that the police and the justice system fucked up big time as is usual in cases of male violence against women. DrMoore did all he could I think, the police shouldve picked the patient up for treatment like Dr Moore asked and should've protected Tarasoff by informing her and giving her protection (a cop escorting her, something like that), clearly, all of that is the police's job not the counselor's. Dr Paulson was wrong, dr Moore knew patient best so they should've listened to him. Paulson and the cops shouldve lost their job, not dr Moore. Oh and the patient shouldve gone to jail for a long time, not live happily married in India. Does his new wife know that he murdered Tarasoff?? Was Tarasoff's life worth that little?? Isn't he still a danger to women?? Isn't he abusing his current wife??
From what I read, the doctor (therapist?) that was seeing the Aurora shooter faced this dilemma. A few days before the shooting, he explicitly stated his plan to shoot up a theater, but either he framed it as a fantasy, or she took it to be one of his fantasies. She had no idea he's been stockpiling the weapons to do it, and he seemed lucid. So, she didn't contact anyone. And she faced immense outrage for not reporting him. It's a tough line. If anyone I know stated they wanted to harm themselves or someone else, I could easily call the police. I would think even an attorney could, without violating attorney/client privilege? And if harm against a child is reported to a mental health professional, even second hand, it's the law that they have to contact the proper authorities. Yet a therapist can't contact authorities about their patient, unless it's specifically stated and their state of mind seems to indicate they'll attempt it? Here, doctors and therapists have patients sign a waiver that if you are threatening harm against yourself or others, they will contact the proper authorities, and/or place you on a psychiatric hold. I think that's how they deal with it, despite how it may affect the therapeutic relationship. I don't see what else they can do, for everyone's safety and health.
Cynically Hopeful the law here in Colorado at the time of the Aurora theater shooting was that the threat needed to be specific. The threats that James Holmes made to the treating social worker and psychiatrist (the social worker made a referral) were too general even though they were homicidal threats. After this (horrific) event, CO changed the law so a threat can be general.
My thoughts exactly. Also, why did Dr. Paulson order Dr. Moore to destroy everything? My opinion is that Dr. Paulson was all about covering his own ass
Extremely interesting video, Dr Grande. Being a Mental Health Professional sounds like a safe way to work, but that’s such a fallacy. It’s almost as if in the Tarasoff case there was no right way to handle the client on the part of the Doctor, in fact I think what happened to Doctor Moore was quite unjust. In reality the law needs to be totally clarified to protect all concerned parties. Thank you for thought provoking videos like this! Have a peaceful evening ☺️
I’ve always been conflicted about this case. I feel like it opens up this can of worms. If you can’t talk to your therapist, psychologist, or psychiatrist about your homicidal ideation without fear of being involuntarily committed or convicted, then who can you? And how exactly do you get better?
isnt there a different between actually talking about doing it and thinking about it? like my ex told me he would daydream about killing this girl that he hated. Im paranoid about this kind of stuff in general. I don't have those thoughts but for suicide. I remember when I first went to therapist I kept on saying over and over again I wouldnt do it but I think about it. I was scared to death of being committed.
this is exactly why this law is so controversial & presents an "ethical conflict" for mental health professionals. The fact that it is written into law itself is the biggest controversy, not the fact that we're expected to follow this rule. In order for clients/patients to feel safe enough to disclose such significant information so that we can attempt to offer intervention, confidentiality is crucial - it is such an important component of our work that the law itself recognizes that it is a key component of our work & that it is NECESSARY for us to adequately carry-out our professional duties/responsibilities. On top of the need to protect client/patient confidentiality, in order for us to be effective at working with someone, we also have to consider the therapeutic relationship itself - our mandatory reporting duties can be distressing to patients, especially if they feel the report is inappropriate or unnecessary, so it poses a risk to the work itself whenever we report major disclosures. The other ethical obligation we have to consider in these situations is our basic duty to protect the basic rights of our patient/client, so disclosures should only be made when absolutely necessary. We have to keep in-mind that the mental health field (like many systems) has a terrible history of over-pathologizing & institutionalizing people (especially vulnerable groups) so we always have a duty to take action only as a last resort & treat people in "the least restrictive setting" when possible. In the end, as mental health professionals & as a field, "we" do also have to acknowledge that we have a clear duty to society should our clients/patients ever pose a risk of harming someone & the situation is preventable - when we fail to identify real risk, lives have been lost - we have to do our best to prevent this. As a result of all these complex issues, the decision to report in the case of potential threats/danger to others is never clear-cut & certainly not an easy decision to make - regardless of whether a clinician decides to file an official report &/or contact authorities (or disclose further), take steps to refer for inpatient psychiatric services, or take responsibility to address the crisis situation within the community ourselves.
Why did Dr. Paulson go to such efforts? That seems strange and unnecessary. I'm reading Hidden Valley Road by Robert Kolker. It is the true story of six brothers with schizophrenia. One of the boys told a university therapist (Colorado in the sixties) that he had compulsions to kill people and the therapist felt that he was not a danger to others. So far in the book this particular brother has not caused any deadly harm. It is a gray area.
What justification did Dr. Moore give for his order to destroy medical records⁉️I was carefully trained that such records are LEGAL as well as medical documents. If you change anything, we were taught to draw one line through the writing (in the 1970s, when we used only paper records), leaving it still legible, and initial it to identify yourself. 🤔😲
I was wondering the same thing. How can one be ordered to destroy medical records - I would think there would be low to protect those and for them to never be destroyed. Many years ago, I worked a temp assignment as bookkeeper for a dentist whose wife decided to clean out all the old records (without his knowledge). When a young woman's body had been found, the police wanted the dental records of a missing woman to compare for identification - the wife had destroyed those records. Ultimately, the body was never identified!
In Germany there is something called Berufshaftpflichtversicherung or professional liability insurance which is mandatory for some professions that include the risk of becoming responsible for financial compensations for damages caused in the execution of ones profession. These insurances ensure the covering of claims by the damaged parties and protect the insured from being personally liable with their private capital apart from those claims being caused by gross negligence or intent.
Very interesting. So tragic that Dr. Moore's supervisor was wrong ( CYA with a bad supervisor is another topic). In the 80s a psychiatrist in NY who saw a couple for marital counseling, believed the husband was a danger to the wife. Apparently the wife was a manipulative borderline who used his warning letter, which diagnosed her husband as a psychopath, etc., to attempt to blackmail her husband into a very advantageous divorce settlement, threatening to show the letter to all future employers (he was a physician) and ruin his career. Ironically, the letter that was intended to save her did not as her personality structure resulted in her misusing it to provoke and enrage her husband, who was convicted of her murder. The psychiatrist commented that she had a 'Carmen Complex' (after the opera), and essentially engaged in behavior so risky that she provoked her murder.
I really feel sorry for Dr. Mohr Very tricky and disturbing! He could find satisfaction, in the fact, he did the best he could. He suspected something and took action. He did well. There was no way he could have predicted it. Maybe this tragedy happened to draw attention to the necessity, of breaking the privacy code sometimes. You are doing a great job, shedding light on this, Dr. Grande!
From all the videos that I’ve watched, this one has been the most eye opening, as I have experienced the “don’t mention it, even as a joke...” from a patient’s perspective (years ago), and it left me feeling confused since I was going through a very traumatic experience and seeking help. Now, looking back, it’s disheartening and worrisome to know that although my circumstances may not have been as “concerning” to my counselor, if they would have been more serious, I -or someone else, wouldn’t have found the adequate support. 😢 So, from a patient’s perspective, how “should” -assuming that there’s a safe, reassuring way to be honest and receive help without negative repercussions, and no prior mental health issues- these concerns be approached? Although this question is very broad, I’m reflecting on general premises and circumstances. For example, a person would not go to the process of finding another provider, a person that is not sure of whether or not the concerns are actually serious, etc.
Very interesting once again. Although I gotta admit I can just envision the highest-functioning psychopaths wildly scribbling notes while watching this video.
Such a difficult issue! This case involved the decisions of a doctor and a therapist. Every day somewhere in this country, under-supervised interns, nurses and inadequately supported social workers make decisions of this magnitude based on criteria which mainly supports the interests of insurance companies when choosing to discharge clients from psychiatric facilities. Training new counselors I encourage counselors to make these decisions out of good faith, understanding of the law and ethics involved and taking into account what they would want to be done to protect their own loved ones. I have treated a few potentially dangerous clients over the years and I have made calls to protect possible victims. What has made this easier for me is the relationship I have with the client. Being very clear, verbally and in writing, so that my client knows very well that my intention is to help them in the way I believe is best. Another thing I do is consult and commiserate with others in the field so that I don’t feel alone in the decision.
You have some serious responsibilities, and take some serious risks. The work I did put me in jeopardy in ways that are distantly comparable (I had to interact with many people in extreme states of mind), so I can empathize with the stress you're under.
I am taking a class in ethics and part of our reading is the Tarasoff Case and really enjoyed this video. I have worked as a case manager in Pa and De, for 20 years and I have worked with the forensic population(my favorite population). I have hospitalized my share of clients wanting to hurt themselves or others.
I know someone who was murdered. I'm always on the side of telling on them. You never get completely over it and it keeps coming back in ways you never even thought about. I wouldn't wish living with homicide on the person who killed our loved one and I'm for telling at the drop of a hat. Eric L. Bennett 10/17/71-9/11/01
After many years of reading and study, it is my opinion that most therapists are overly concerned with their clients’ mental health and well being and the potential victims of these patients can just be damned.
Thank you so much for the wonderfully intelligent and informative videos you are sharing. I greatly appreciate both the amount of time you put into each one, and the high quality content of your video series. Wishing you a very happy Easter! Question- do you have a favorite Easter candy? I love Reese's peanut butter eggs!💐👍
Portable personal alarms can deter or end an attack, sometimes. They emit a shrieking alarm and flash a strobe light. If thrown away from the attacker, he may be diverted from his target. There’s a good model on Amazon for $23. Can’t hurt. Even brandishing one can deter.
Ah-hhh-ha! The Tarasoff Case! Brava! Every aspiring clinician and, in fact, each undergrad as well as grad student needs to understand and be aware of the implications of this!
I believe that there is a duty to warm and protect when its in their knowledge that a person is in danger. The fact that he said he was talking about killing this girl should have been enough to lock him up. There’s a Miscarriage of justice here. This S.O.B got off TOO EASY
This pisses me off, that anyone would discourage a potentially violent person from mentioning if they want to hurt or kill somebody, just so they don't have to deal with protecting potential victims? If somebody ever went into a therapy session and threatened to kill me or someone in my family, I think they should be legally obligated to notify me and all else be damned.
Mental health in true crime is something that interests me most on this platform, but there was no way for me to find this video other than directly searching for it, despite the fact that I am already subscribed to you. I searched after seeing your comment on your video about Trump. You're a man that sticks to his word.
This is why asking for help if you're suicidal, you pretty much risk getting the cops called. There are no beds to be hospitalized so the cops come and drop you at the crisis center who tells you (me) I didn't need to stay so I had to walk home at night. Its ridiculous.
Very informative, I had no idea a Dr would be allowed to decline a patient because they are dangerous. I do understand the lawsuit happy world we live in, and protecting yourself though.
Hi, Dr. Grande! I cite your videos often in my graduate school work. I find your channel to be extremely helpful and I always learn something new! I was wondering if you could give a rundown of the 1999 case Thapar v. Zezulka in Texas.
I taught the Tarasoff case in Health Sciences. I think it is an indictment on our health and helping services that we have not re-evaluated our ethics and protocols in a way that leaves less room for error. But we and our services are all evolving and perhaps as the information age progresses, we will share our expertise and create more effective and hopefully universal protocols to protect all parties.
@@PutinsMommyNeverHuggedHim yes that's right. Legislation is such that if a civilian reports someone has made a threat to get them police can only act after a crime. A catch 22 law that congress/ parliament tried to amend but was deemed unreasonable to arrest on grounds of a felony yet to be committed as to do so infringed on personal liberty. However could it be argued in certain extreme cases that a threat is an act of terror even if not expressed directly & might evoke under the terrorist laws the right to hold a suspect for 14 days if suspected of imminent danger to another. No way should this individual of been allowed to evade justice.
Brings to mind all the acid attacks women suffered in India when refusing advances from men. Could culture play a small role as well? Horrible man. Wonder if his wife knows this fact. RIP lovely young girl
dr grande, as you know i watch your vids on a daily basis. they actually help me cope with my conglomeration of mental garbage. lolz. this is by far my least favorite vid of yours. but still awesome!!!!! wow. most of the time, when i say something is my least favorite of a certain whatever, i dont like it.....at all. but with you, i just find your other vids 1)more interesting and more importantly B)much easier to follow. im not sure if it's because of how much content was in this or if this is a complicated subject. but like i said, still awesome doc!!!!!
I would support informing the authorities when a client discussions the need to hurt or seek revenge when the client owns or has access to guns. A system needs to be developed that protects both the client and society. However, my suggestion leaves a large hole for assault and murders by other weapons. Thank you for an excellent discussion on the rights of an individual client, health professional, and society.
Stealing from David Wong: In choosing between preventing a murder and not preventing a murder, ALWAYS opt for preventing a murder. And continue making that choice down the path it takes you. The simple form of this case is identical to the actual events: There were actionable steps Moore could have taken and he chose not to. If a therapist doesn't want to deal with that sort of moral dilemma, then guess what: McDonald's is hiring.
13:55 How do we know we've executed "a moment's reflection"? Save yourself, So you can recall having said to yourself "Do I know who they're talking about?" Does that make this less problematic or doable?
Is "harm" defined? Did I miss that? Is harm meant physical attack with the view to kill or maim? What if its an emotional harm due to malignant coercion and manipulation?
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The only person who didn't suffer punishment was the murderer. How awful for the young woman, her family, and the doctor.
Dr Grande already had me at 35 year old exchange student teaching folk dancing at the University of Cali in Berkely; WTF We already knew he was a nutjob Sounds like the counselor tried his best; I believe the I part was the final cut they should have stopped there, yet the government decided to add the 11 part , which served to water it down in my humble opinion.
@@gigi9301lol
I’ve been a psychiatrist for over 30 years and I’m just now hearing the details about Tarasoff. Fascinating.
u are awesome for all ur hard work :)
I’m a current social work student and I have to say, this is THE most comprehensive and beneficial TH-cam channel I have found. I’ve discussed some of the topics in your videos with my supervisor many times, and I am grateful for the content you are creating and sharing. I’m particularly focused on sexual health and are one of the only channels with information regarding sexual components of mental health. Thank you Dr. Grande!!
Ps do you think you could ever film a video in regards to prospective clinicians and some objective “advice” (for lack of better term) to consider? Thank you!
@ Angela Bennet, your comment on sexual health within mental health issues was insightful. That could raise a lot of issues. I’m in tech w/ roommate a Master’s in social work but is in children services. Thanks for your interesting comment
You should take a look at the channel sexplanations! Dr. Doe doesn't focus specifically on the relationship between sexuality and mental health, but it does come up as she's all about openness and sex being part of the whole person. There's also a podcast that's much more in-depth, and certainly plenty of excellent resources. And she's just so energetic and delightful! I watch her videos when I need a little boost. 😁
(Your comment was a year ago so may no longer be pertinent, but others might also benefit. Enjoy! 😎)
I second that request. I have been bingeing your videos and wondering if there were any videos that would offer advice in that realm. Thanks Dr. Grande!
When I first started my studies to become a counselor, it was this subject that almost scared me out of it. Feeling like we could be held civilly responsible for another persons actions was alarming. I don't feel like this subject has been covered enough in my studies, so I really appreciate your video.
What about the therapist's safety? Are they members of the public? In Delaware, 10/2015, a wonderful psychiatrist with whom I worked for over a decade was murdered in her home down the road from me. The most important thing is to consider all possibilities and protect yourself as a clinician. I would rather be sued than stabbed to death... or to that someone related to my client was murdered. I work with dangerous people...but not on my turf. Clinicians, be safe!!!!!!!
That’s also understandable. Depends on the patient I’d predict. Wouldn’t blame anybody for making the decision it’s in their best interest for their life to not say anything.
But only if the patient is deemed a danger to the therapist logically and rationally. If this is an emotional decision the same argument can be made against the clinician that was used against the police.
Thank you Dr. Grande. This video assisted me in doing an assignment regarding Tarasoff in my advanced legal degree. You make excellent points, both about the legal side, and about the perspective of the clinician.
Wait, why did they go after Dr. Moore? That Dr. Paulson or whatever was the one who specifically undid all the measures Dr. Moore was putting into place!
Seems like Dr.Moore did the right steps all the way through but he was fired anyway. So unfair !
cause he broke pt confidentiality
Not to mention that the police are the biggest g****** idiots on the face of the Earth period, in my humble opinion..
wow! the tarasoff case laws 1 and 2 were obviously based on the conduct and entirety of this case. How horrible that he was forced to break pt confidentiality, still receive punishment, and case laws were still created after everything was said and done anyways. @@Strongbabiix3
It's late and I'm running out of videos to watch😢😢 I have watched them all! Love some Dr. Grande videos
same 😭
This guy's got the magic touch
For real and his humor.. So i waych it over and this time jot it down like im in school
Me too... I rewatch when I get too bored ... lol
I'm a psych nurse. Love & binge on this channel. 😍 No 1 is Like Dr. Grande. Very fresh professional outlook on many topics. Beats all the gossip & documentary channels. I love the dark comic shades & ironies. 😎 ⛱
In my counseling program and traineeship, we were taught to go over the informed consent agreement very clearly and get a signature at the beginning of working with the client. Then if there is an issue later, you have disclosed the duty to protect.
Really sad for Dr. Moore. Sounds like they were just passing the buck. This was a new term for me. Very interesting. Thanks.
Thank you so much for your candor. I am an MSW student and we are discussing this case and all of its implications. It is refreshing to hear a professional speak openly of the fear and anxiety that comes with the possible liabilities that we are open to. I look forward to watching more of your videos and I plan to recommend them to my cohorts. Please keep them coming!
As a layperson, I can understand why this would be a huge dilemma for Mental Health Professionals walking that thin grey tightrope. This is a compelling subject, thank you, Dr. Grande.
You're welcome :)
This is fascinating- not long after the Tarasoff opinions were issued I took a Law and Medicine seminar while in law school. My seminar paper was on the malpractice liability of psychiatrists - most earlier cases involved liability for physical injuries - from ECT etc. I focused a lot on Tarasoff - my conclusion was that the standard of liability for a duty to warn should be gross negligence- this seemed to strike the proper balance - I knew about the conviction in the criminal case. But had no idea what had happened after that until this video - thanks for another great video!
You are quite welcome!
Thank you @ doowop54 for your legal perspective. I see your response is 1 yr. Appreciate your explanation of intersection of mental health experts legal constraints.Greetings from Chicago
This is a very grim subject. I do think everyone, no matter what their profession, has a duty to warn a potential victim of a crime against them. But when you read about the Genovese case you can see that it's not the case. People don't want to get involved, therapists don't want to lose their license to practice, etc. Lives just aren't as important as the grey areas.
Thank you, Dr. Grande. I wish you a lovely Easter with your family. 🌹👍
You are quite welcome - Happy Easter!
@@DrGrande Thank you! 🐇🐣
:/ the question is whether it actually does any good.
* The client who is aware of the legislation will avoid telling the therapist of their intensions
* Unless they aren't real intensions, in which case you potentially make them more real by not talking about them
* Or harm the client
* Which might make them more dangerous to people around them
There is more to the Genovese case than we were taught. She did not die alone. She died with a good friend, and neighbor. They interviewed her daughter i believe she is still alive...Her being Ignored was a better story.
This is spectacularly informative and is currently helping me with ideas for a group project for my Final in Psych Ethics. We are to design our own ethical dilemmas, demonstrate the steps to ethical decision making; as well apply the applicable standards and principles. I find the Tarasoff case so very interesting. The various complexities, and the almost palpable human frailty in all parties involved, make this landmark case thought provoking on professional, ethical, and moral levels. Thanks for this, and for all of your " scientifically informed" videos. I find it so admirable that I didn't seem to pick up on even the slightest bias. I have so much to learn and I love that I can actually enjoy to doing so.
I cant express enough how much I enjoy these anecdotal stories, I find them fascinating and I love your delivery. Please keep them coming. Much Thanks, my friend!
Well, i bet to Tarasoff family as well as the Moores that story and its outcome do not seem anecdotal! That story is a pure tragic, what is more tragical is that the justice again hadn't been served. I wish Dr Grande could dwell more on the topic of the reasons and persons who had come up to that brilliant idea of simply throwing that manic Hindu out of the country instead of giving him a proper at least 25 years before being parole eligible.
I began therapy in 2010. I appreciate that the clinician informed me that if I reported intentions to harm others or myself, he would be required to report it. I would always prefer to harm myself, never others .
I have a good relationship with him and feel safe reporting my true feelings.
Good therapists rock.
Thank you
I remember Tarasoff from law school. We focused on the case and not what happened to the killer. It is tragic that he was permitted to leave the country. He killed a young person in her prime and left her family bereft. The result, he was permitted to go home to India. What kind of stupid lawyer would marry him? I hope she is still alive! But then, one wonders if there are cultural differences at play here.
In alot of cultures murder like a mistake or a sin
Rather than an evil act of a deeply disturbed person
Highly doubt she knew what he did. You think someone would tell someone they’re a murderer and the second person would still marry them?
@@DuckiesDad08 I have heard of this before. People have done stranger things. People marry prison inmates. I believe many do not think that what happened to another will ever happen to them.
@@meggallucci5300 True, but India is another county. What’s the likelihood she heard of him, and what’s his incentive for disclosing he did something so horrible?
@@DuckiesDad08 Yes, I suppose he might have lied to her about what he did. He should not have had that opportunity, but he moved a long way from California, and India is an entirely different culture, of course.
I love how you provide the data to look at information ourselves.I used to go with a freind to the Law Library at ASU and learned alot more by reading journals of forensic science and psycopathy .Great video once again sir.
Thank you!
I appreciate your videos and insight, Dr. Grande. Do you ever find your mind taken over by the grim topics and stories? How do you decompress? I went to college with the intention of working in the field of forensic psychology. I ended up going a different route and sometimes wonder if I would have been affected by the heavy subject matter. Thank you for posting!
Dr. Grande,
I have provided trainings on Duty to Warn for over ten years. This presentation is thorough and very well presented! Kudos!
Prof Andrews
I do learn a lot, by watching your videos, thank you very much Dr. Grande.
You're welcome!
This is a common area in mental health. I don’t see how anyone could avoid it. We get a lot of patients who claim they want to hurt someone.
But wanting to hurt someone isn't a plan to.
I think in our profession we have both a duty to warn and protect our clients as best we can even if we don't know that there is a victim. Still we should know the laws that govern how we practice in order to protect both ourselves and the client. Thanks for sharing!
I found this video to be extremely helpful! Dr. Grande you did wonderful in explaining all the details about the case and other concepts such as applying it to the mental health field and other important things to consider from a therapist approach. Out of all the videos on this topic, i found yours to be the most educational and well explained. Thank you for what you do! Your work and time is greatly appreciated
This video spends nearly all of its time considering the rights of the clinician/therapist and the client, and virtually none considering the rights of the threatened potential victim. This reflects reality. I was "warned" about an impending situation, but given ZERO help or defense by anyone in the system. The client could not be restrained or held against his will, the police would do nothing until after a hostile act was committed, the employer involved would not provide any security, or release me from the job which required interaction with this person. Everybody just said, "Call 911 if anything happens." Fortunately, the threat never materialized, but I spent several weeks in a state of terror, and I still feel unhappy about the lack of concern for potential victims. I had no rights. The mentally ill person had many, many rights. And this video is mainly concerned with the rights of the therapists, and a concern that they might be sued if their client actually does harm someone.
Yes, this is our experience of being victimised and being a victim of crime. There just seems to be nothing people will do until there is a corpse.
Wow. That puts a helluva lot of responsibility on the therapist! And yes, grey areas abound! I know you did alot of research on this one. Incredibly interesting!
Always a timely discussion. We can't know when a circumstance will arise in which we have to make that decision.
I'm a psych nurse. Love & binge on this channel. 😍 No 1 is Like Dr. Grande. Very fresh professional outlook on many topics. Beats all the gossip & documentary channels. I love the dark comic shades & ironies. 😎 ⛱
What a fraught topic. One central question that you mentioned is, how good are therapists at predicting such dire and rare outcomes as murder? Do we know how good they are at predicting suicide, in cases where someone has expressed suicidal intent but hasn't made previous attempts?
If their predictions are useless, they shouldn't bear responsibility.
Extremely interesting case and so very well analyzed by our Dr.Grande .
Have you done a video on the Gabriel Fernandez case? That 8 year old boy who was tourtered and killed by his mother and step father and who was failed by the system? I'm curious to hear your thoughts
Extremely informative! Thank you for all your hard work.
Very sad story if you look at it from outside.
Some people knew what was going to happen and did nothing. Kind of reminds me of "Chronicle of a Death Foretold" by Gabriel Garcia Marquez when a couple of would be murderers were looking for a guy they had to kill and all the town knew about it and did nothing, never even warning the guy. Everyone assumed somebody else already did.
And an innocent life was taken and the murderer walked. And Dr. Moore became the scapegoat...
If you listen closely to Dr Grande's recap of the situation, this is not entirely true. In the other country, they were told what he wanted to do and still he was let free. He returned to the US, did what he wanted, was tried and let go on a technicality and tried for manslaughter WHAT. He was able to go back to his native country scotfree and who knows what happened to him in India for all we know he is still alive there and doing whatever he wants to do.
Dr. Grande, this is one of my favorite videos from your channel. I watch it from time to time but didn’t comment until now.🙂
What a fascinating case. Although this case happened many years ago its relevance still persists.
Outstanding review, thank you.❤
One of the best videos I have ever watched in this topic. Just excellent, Dr Grande. Thank you!! 🍁🇨🇦
Wow....terrible, poor Tarasoff. It seems that the police and the justice system fucked up big time as is usual in cases of male violence against women. DrMoore did all he could I think, the police shouldve picked the patient up for treatment like Dr Moore asked and should've protected Tarasoff by informing her and giving her protection (a cop escorting her, something like that), clearly, all of that is the police's job not the counselor's. Dr Paulson was wrong, dr Moore knew patient best so they should've listened to him. Paulson and the cops shouldve lost their job, not dr Moore.
Oh and the patient shouldve gone to jail for a long time, not live happily married in India. Does his new wife know that he murdered Tarasoff?? Was Tarasoff's life worth that little?? Isn't he still a danger to women?? Isn't he abusing his current wife??
From what I read, the doctor (therapist?) that was seeing the Aurora shooter faced this dilemma. A few days before the shooting, he explicitly stated his plan to shoot up a theater, but either he framed it as a fantasy, or she took it to be one of his fantasies. She had no idea he's been stockpiling the weapons to do it, and he seemed lucid. So, she didn't contact anyone.
And she faced immense outrage for not reporting him.
It's a tough line. If anyone I know stated they wanted to harm themselves or someone else, I could easily call the police. I would think even an attorney could, without violating attorney/client privilege? And if harm against a child is reported to a mental health professional, even second hand, it's the law that they have to contact the proper authorities.
Yet a therapist can't contact authorities about their patient, unless it's specifically stated and their state of mind seems to indicate they'll attempt it?
Here, doctors and therapists have patients sign a waiver that if you are threatening harm against yourself or others, they will contact the proper authorities, and/or place you on a psychiatric hold. I think that's how they deal with it, despite how it may affect the therapeutic relationship. I don't see what else they can do, for everyone's safety and health.
Cynically Hopeful the law here in Colorado at the time of the Aurora theater shooting was that the threat needed to be specific. The threats that James Holmes made to the treating social worker and psychiatrist (the social worker made a referral) were too general even though they were homicidal threats. After this (horrific) event, CO changed the law so a threat can be general.
"what else can you do" provide complete confidentiality so that therapists can actually get accurate risk information and reduce risk.
But why was Dr Moore fired and not Dr. Paulson?
My thoughts exactly. Also, why did Dr. Paulson order Dr. Moore to destroy everything? My opinion is that Dr. Paulson was all about covering his own ass
@@rowdy7480 Dr. Powelson was trying to protect the campus police, who had (incorrectly) deemed Poddar harmless.
Dr. Grande, I’m addicted to your steady voice to calm my anxiety while driving. You are better than any pill I’ve ever been given. Here’s to you!
Extremely interesting video, Dr Grande. Being a Mental Health Professional sounds like a safe way to work, but that’s such a fallacy. It’s almost as if in the Tarasoff case there was no right way to handle the client on the part of the Doctor, in fact I think what happened to Doctor Moore was quite unjust. In reality the law needs to be totally clarified to protect all concerned parties. Thank you for thought provoking videos like this! Have a peaceful evening ☺️
no, psychiatrists have a large suicide rate.
Thank you for presenting this information in an objective manner. I appreciate your content.
I can't imagine becoming a mental health clinician just to earn a living. Always very interesting content, thanks Dr Grande.
Thank you Dr. Grande. I can't officially go back to college yet but your You tube channel is so educational that I know I am already there.
I’ve always been conflicted about this case. I feel like it opens up this can of worms. If you can’t talk to your therapist, psychologist, or psychiatrist about your homicidal ideation without fear of being involuntarily committed or convicted, then who can you? And how exactly do you get better?
I guess that's why they start talking to themselves!
isnt there a different between actually talking about doing it and thinking about it? like my ex told me he would daydream about killing this girl that he hated. Im paranoid about this kind of stuff in general. I don't have those thoughts but for suicide. I remember when I first went to therapist I kept on saying over and over again I wouldnt do it but I think about it. I was scared to death of being committed.
this is exactly why this law is so controversial & presents an "ethical conflict" for mental health professionals. The fact that it is written into law itself is the biggest controversy, not the fact that we're expected to follow this rule. In order for clients/patients to feel safe enough to disclose such significant information so that we can attempt to offer intervention, confidentiality is crucial - it is such an important component of our work that the law itself recognizes that it is a key component of our work & that it is NECESSARY for us to adequately carry-out our professional duties/responsibilities. On top of the need to protect client/patient confidentiality, in order for us to be effective at working with someone, we also have to consider the therapeutic relationship itself - our mandatory reporting duties can be distressing to patients, especially if they feel the report is inappropriate or unnecessary, so it poses a risk to the work itself whenever we report major disclosures. The other ethical obligation we have to consider in these situations is our basic duty to protect the basic rights of our patient/client, so disclosures should only be made when absolutely necessary. We have to keep in-mind that the mental health field (like many systems) has a terrible history of over-pathologizing & institutionalizing people (especially vulnerable groups) so we always have a duty to take action only as a last resort & treat people in "the least restrictive setting" when possible. In the end, as mental health professionals & as a field, "we" do also have to acknowledge that we have a clear duty to society should our clients/patients ever pose a risk of harming someone & the situation is preventable - when we fail to identify real risk, lives have been lost - we have to do our best to prevent this. As a result of all these complex issues, the decision to report in the case of potential threats/danger to others is never clear-cut & certainly not an easy decision to make - regardless of whether a clinician decides to file an official report &/or contact authorities (or disclose further), take steps to refer for inpatient psychiatric services, or take responsibility to address the crisis situation within the community ourselves.
Why did Dr. Paulson go to such efforts? That seems strange and unnecessary. I'm reading Hidden Valley Road by Robert Kolker. It is the true story of six brothers with schizophrenia. One of the boys told a university therapist (Colorado in the sixties) that he had compulsions to kill people and the therapist felt that he was not a danger to others. So far in the book this particular brother has not caused any deadly harm. It is a gray area.
He probably didn't think the murder would actually happen, so he was more worried about Poddar suing them for breaking the confidentiality.
What justification did Dr. Moore give for his order to destroy medical records⁉️I was carefully trained that such records are LEGAL as well as medical documents. If you change anything, we were taught to draw one line through the writing (in the 1970s, when we used only paper records), leaving it still legible, and initial it to identify yourself. 🤔😲
I was wondering the same thing. How can one be ordered to destroy medical records - I would think there would be low to protect those and for them to never be destroyed. Many years ago, I worked a temp assignment as bookkeeper for a dentist whose wife decided to clean out all the old records (without his knowledge). When a young woman's body had been found, the police wanted the dental records of a missing woman to compare for identification - the wife had destroyed those records. Ultimately, the body was never identified!
In Germany there is something called Berufshaftpflichtversicherung or professional liability insurance which is mandatory for some professions that include the risk of becoming responsible for financial compensations for damages caused in the execution of ones profession. These insurances ensure the covering of claims by the damaged parties and protect the insured from being personally liable with their private capital apart from those claims being caused by gross negligence or intent.
Thanks for the summary Dr Grande....I'm learning about this in my Masters currently.
Very interesting. So tragic that Dr. Moore's supervisor was wrong ( CYA with a bad supervisor is another topic).
In the 80s a psychiatrist in NY who saw a couple for marital counseling, believed the husband was a danger to the wife. Apparently the wife was a manipulative borderline who used his warning letter, which diagnosed her husband as a psychopath, etc., to attempt to blackmail her husband into a very advantageous divorce settlement, threatening to show the letter to all future employers (he was a physician) and ruin his career. Ironically, the letter that was intended to save her did not as her personality structure resulted in her misusing it to provoke and enrage her husband, who was convicted of her murder. The psychiatrist commented that she had a 'Carmen Complex' (after the opera), and essentially engaged in behavior so risky that she provoked her murder.
I really feel sorry for Dr. Mohr
Very tricky and disturbing!
He could find satisfaction, in the fact, he did the best he could.
He suspected something and took action. He did well.
There was no way he could have predicted it.
Maybe this tragedy happened to draw attention to the necessity, of breaking the privacy code sometimes.
You are doing a great job, shedding light on this, Dr. Grande!
He didn’t do his best. Made no effort to warn the victim.
From all the videos that I’ve watched, this one has been the most eye opening, as I have experienced the “don’t mention it, even as a joke...” from a patient’s perspective (years ago), and it left me feeling confused since I was going through a very traumatic experience and seeking help. Now, looking back, it’s disheartening and worrisome to know that although my circumstances may not have been as “concerning” to my counselor, if they would have been more serious, I -or someone else, wouldn’t have found the adequate support. 😢
So, from a patient’s perspective, how “should” -assuming that there’s a safe, reassuring way to be honest and receive help without negative repercussions, and no prior mental health issues- these concerns be approached?
Although this question is very broad, I’m reflecting on general premises and circumstances. For example, a person would not go to the process of finding another provider, a person that is not sure of whether or not the concerns are actually serious, etc.
Very interesting once again. Although I gotta admit I can just envision the highest-functioning psychopaths wildly scribbling notes while watching this video.
Thank you, this has been very beneficial to listen to as a counselling student.
Such a difficult issue! This case involved the decisions of a doctor and a therapist. Every day somewhere in this country, under-supervised interns, nurses and inadequately supported social workers make decisions of this magnitude based on criteria which mainly supports the interests of insurance companies when choosing to discharge clients from psychiatric facilities. Training new counselors I encourage counselors to make these decisions out of good faith, understanding of the law and ethics involved and taking into account what they would want to be done to protect their own loved ones. I have treated a few potentially dangerous clients over the years and I have made calls to protect possible victims. What has made this easier for me is the relationship I have with the client. Being very clear, verbally and in writing, so that my client knows very well that my intention is to help them in the way I believe is best. Another thing I do is consult and commiserate with others in the field so that I don’t feel alone in the decision.
Thank you for this in depth video, it is helping me write a paper for my philosophy of law class!
You have some serious responsibilities, and take some serious risks. The work I did put me in jeopardy in ways that are distantly comparable (I had to interact with many people in extreme states of mind), so I can empathize with the stress you're under.
This one was a tour de force! Finally getting to it on Fourth of July so Happy Fourth of July to you Dr. Grande!
Dr. Moore punished but Dr. Paulsen not punished..weird.
And totally unfair.
I am taking a class in ethics and part of our reading is the Tarasoff Case and really enjoyed this video. I have worked as a case manager in Pa and De, for 20 years and I have worked with the forensic population(my favorite population). I have hospitalized my share of clients wanting to hurt themselves or others.
I know someone who was murdered. I'm always on the side of telling on them.
You never get completely over it and it keeps coming back in ways you never even thought about.
I wouldn't wish living with homicide on the person who killed our loved one and I'm for telling at the drop of a hat.
Eric L. Bennett
10/17/71-9/11/01
After many years of reading and study, it is my opinion that most therapists are overly concerned with their clients’ mental health and well being and the potential victims of these patients can just be damned.
Thank you so much for the wonderfully intelligent and informative videos you are sharing. I greatly appreciate both the amount of time you put into each one, and the high quality content of your video series. Wishing you a very happy Easter! Question- do you have a favorite Easter candy? I love Reese's peanut butter eggs!💐👍
You are quite welcome - Years ago I used to like the caramel eggs!
Dr. Todd Grande Perhaps you should indulge your inner child once again!
Portable personal alarms can deter or end an attack, sometimes. They emit a shrieking alarm and flash a strobe light. If thrown away from the attacker, he may be diverted from his target. There’s a good model on Amazon for $23. Can’t hurt. Even brandishing one can deter.
Thanks for another very interesting and enlightening video!
You are most welcome!
Ah-hhh-ha! The Tarasoff Case! Brava! Every aspiring clinician and, in fact, each undergrad as well as grad student needs to understand and be aware of the implications of this!
I believe that there is a duty to warm and protect when its in their knowledge that a person is in danger. The fact that he said he was talking about killing this girl should have been enough to lock him up. There’s a Miscarriage of justice here. This S.O.B got off TOO EASY
This pisses me off, that anyone would discourage a potentially violent person from mentioning if they want to hurt or kill somebody, just so they don't have to deal with protecting potential victims? If somebody ever went into a therapy session and threatened to kill me or someone in my family, I think they should be legally obligated to notify me and all else be damned.
Very interesting!!!!! Thank you so much!
Awesome work guys! Job well done.
Can you comment on the Turpin case? I’m so interested in the psychology of this.
I feel like doctors who say “don’t tell me” are also dangerous to their community.
Keeping your client from killing people seems like a good thing.
Mental health in true crime is something that interests me most on this platform, but there was no way for me to find this video other than directly searching for it, despite the fact that I am already subscribed to you. I searched after seeing your comment on your video about Trump. You're a man that sticks to his word.
Good job! Very informational.
I tried to add you in case you decide to go “live” but it didn’t work. Let me know if need help moderating.
Law student w/mental health/social work background. Great info!
This is why asking for help if you're suicidal, you pretty much risk getting the cops called. There are no beds to be hospitalized so the cops come and drop you at the crisis center who tells you (me) I didn't need to stay so I had to walk home at night. Its ridiculous.
Don’t forget that insurance won’t cover it anyway. Hope u know that u are not alone and are doing well. 🤗
Very informative, I had no idea a Dr would be allowed to decline a patient because they are dangerous. I do understand the lawsuit happy world we live in, and protecting yourself though.
Great brief of the case. Going over this and a few others for my mental health law course. Best part of becoming a Forensic Psych if you ask me.
Excellent explanation.
Hi, Dr. Grande! I cite your videos often in my graduate school work. I find your channel to be extremely helpful and I always learn something new! I was wondering if you could give a rundown of the 1999 case Thapar v. Zezulka in Texas.
Everyone should know the law and their rights in regards to their profession....it's saved me more than once!
In which way it was a second degree if it was premeditated?
I taught the Tarasoff case in Health Sciences. I think it is an indictment on our health and helping services that we have not re-evaluated our ethics and protocols in a way that leaves less room for error. But we and our services are all evolving and perhaps as the information age progresses, we will share our expertise and create more effective and hopefully universal protocols to protect all parties.
This is terrifying. Just now finding this case today, how strange..
Why was Dr. Moore fired? He put in a real effort. Dr. Paulson is the one who shut it all down - he should have been fired and prosecuted.
They should of sacked the policeman
@@PutinsMommyNeverHuggedHim yes that's right. Legislation is such that if a civilian reports someone has made a threat to get them police can only act after a crime. A catch 22 law that congress/ parliament tried to amend but was deemed unreasonable to arrest on grounds of a felony yet to be committed as to do so infringed on personal liberty. However could it be argued in certain extreme cases that a threat is an act of terror even if not expressed directly & might evoke under the terrorist laws the right to hold a suspect for 14 days if suspected of imminent danger to another.
No way should this individual of been allowed to evade justice.
I don't understand why Dr. Moore was sued, or fired I guess. What was the rationale behind holding him accountable?
Happy Easter Doc! 🐰🐣🐇🐤
Happy Easter!
In some jurisdictions, Tarasoff doctrine
has been expanded to include potential victims
of assaults on personal property.
Surely he should have been tried again, its disgusting that he got away with murder.
Brings to mind all the acid attacks women suffered in India when refusing advances from men. Could culture play a small role as well? Horrible man. Wonder if his wife knows this fact.
RIP lovely young girl
I thought the same thing.
Dr. Grande, what is your opinion on video recording all sessions with clients? With their consent naturally.
Why did Paulson disagree with Moore's actions so much?
dr grande, as you know i watch your vids on a daily basis. they actually help me cope with my conglomeration of mental garbage. lolz. this is by far my least favorite vid of yours. but still awesome!!!!! wow. most of the time, when i say something is my least favorite of a certain whatever, i dont like it.....at all. but with you, i just find your other vids 1)more interesting and more importantly B)much easier to follow. im not sure if it's because of how much content was in this or if this is a complicated subject. but like i said, still awesome doc!!!!!
I would support informing the authorities when a client discussions the need to hurt or seek revenge when the client owns or has access to guns. A system needs to be developed that protects both the client and society. However, my suggestion leaves a large hole for assault and murders by other weapons. Thank you for an excellent discussion on the rights of an individual client, health professional, and society.
Stealing from David Wong: In choosing between preventing a murder and not preventing a murder, ALWAYS opt for preventing a murder. And continue making that choice down the path it takes you. The simple form of this case is identical to the actual events: There were actionable steps Moore could have taken and he chose not to.
If a therapist doesn't want to deal with that sort of moral dilemma, then guess what: McDonald's is hiring.
13:55 How do we know we've executed "a moment's reflection"? Save yourself, So you can recall having said to yourself "Do I know who they're talking about?"
Does that make this less problematic or doable?
Is "harm" defined? Did I miss that? Is harm meant physical attack with the view to kill or maim? What if its an emotional harm due to malignant coercion and manipulation?
the good thing is about the law is
they chouse who and when
all laws are open to interpretation
justice is not blind