Don’t take that as an absolute, but it’s a good recommendation for 90+% of users. For a small percentage of people, the M2, and especially the M2 Pro improvements will be worth the upgrade. Cost/benefit analysis. If the cost to upgrade (including time to copy all apps and data), less the value of trade-in/resale of old machine will be more than offset by the productivity increase of having a machine that is ~20% faster (10%-40%) for the next 9-12 months, then you should upgrade ASAP. If not, you should wait.
@@piotrd.4850 unless you bought the last of the intel MacBooks. I’m so glad my gut said buy a nice tv. It delayed my purchase for 3 months and I bought a m1 MacBook Pro. I know myself if I went the other way and bought it I would have replaced it within the year.
Regarding the 3DMark test, the "small difference" seems to be because the absolute max score one could get is 20,000. Both machines are trying to achieve 120 fps during the entire test, which the M2 got incredibly close, while the M1 has a lot more drops in the frame rate. A better way to look at these scores would be, M1 Max: 18.79/20 vs. M2 Max: 19.91/20. I think that helps communicate how much better the M2 Max really is!
Lol, it’s like reading reviews on the new Z06…I’ll never have one but it’s fun to read about. I say this as someone who has a MBA M1 and a few MBA vintage 2012-2013.
“Secret battery test whoooaah!” Haha that cracked me up. Luke you are such a natural presenter, its always a pleasure to watch your channel. Great useful review.
I agree. I want to always get the most out of my cooling system and keep my temperatures as low as possible. Fans certainly have a purpose and they should be used.
We saw with the M2 MB Air that Apple are confident that 108 degrees are acceptable for these chips to run at. I suspect they have tested them, and there are no long-term issues. Maybe, with the M1, they were overly careful as they were releasing ground-breaking products. So, I have no issues with the temp, and if I did, I would just run the fans at a higher RPM to lower them. Bearing that most of us rarely run at full load, the occasional 100% blowout will be fine.
Maybe they capped the M1's because Apple had to prove the M1's were capable machines that didn't run super hot. That proving was already done, so with M2 they decided to push the silicon to it's limit. I assume they will do the same with M3
Could the 120 fps cap on the wildlife extreme test be limiting the gpus? Maybe that's why the difference seems so small. From the graph it looked like both macs were hitting the 120 fps maximum other than a few dips.
Well, they did up the performance by 20-30%... and upped power usage by about the same. With the same cooling solutions and chassis, you get thermals to deal with. This is not at all to say that the M2 MBP is a bad machine, just that you either let it get hot, or use software to adjust the fan curve and possibly get a bit of extra noise.
Got my M2 Max 16 last week and I am absolutely blown away. Granted, she did replace a 2017 MBP and a 2018 Mini, so I was easily impressed. My cat loves how hot it runs, too!
Great video! One thing I wanted to point as for the 3dmark test. I think the frame rate is capped at the refresh rate of the display (120fps). I think that's why the test were so close. If you look at the graph displayed under the results you can see it's hitting that threshold.
Kinda glad I got an M1 MBP 16", heat is the enemy of laptops and my last Intel MBP suffered a swollen battery and screen problems due to the heat it generated.
The fact the heat sink for the cpu is literally half the size on the m2 pro/max versions probably doesn't help with keeping the temps down either. I'm really curious about how the 14" m2 max thermals perform, but nobody has made a video about it yet...
Low fan speeds aren't just for noise. It also affects battery life. Why run the fans higher if they don't need to be? That would literally just waste battery. Apple engineered the system, I'm sure they put A LOT more thought into what temps the SOC can tolerate. Unless the thing is uncomfortably warm on your lap, who the hell cares what temp the cores are?
This is an actually USEFUL video indeed. I would love to see the same comparison between 14" M1 MAX vs 14" M2 MAX vs 14" PRO, battery-life, thermals and throttling wise :)
As always THANKS so much. What about the 14 inch M2 Max with 30 graphic cores? I am upgrading from a 2015 Core i7 quad core macbook pro. Will I notice a difference while using final cut?
Great video and just the kind of analysis I was looking for. If I had one of these, I'd run the fans hard while working on video editing or exporting video/audio. That could maybe help the laptops last longer.
5:00. It's worth noting that the rate of thermal transfer between two systems (say your CPU and the environment) is in large part controlled by the delta (difference) between those two systems. So by letting the chip run hotter, not only do you get less fan noise (because the fan is moving slower), but you actually get more cooling effect per CFM. Of course, there are other considerations as well, such as component life, but we just have to hope Apple knows what they're doing.
I agree with Apple. 99% of the time you are not going to be maxing all the cores, and definitely not for a sustained amount of time. You might compile for a few seconds, or spend 10 minutes outputting a video. High temps every once in a while won't hurt anything.
Is it though? I'm not saying it isn't, I don't know! But it seems to me like no one really knows and nobody ever really tested to see if there's actually any truth to that. If there has been proper testing documented on this please let know! I'm very open to read it and be convinced otherwise, but I'm annoyed at everybody stating the durability thing as if it was a fact.
@@meislit9217 I was wondering about the same thing, is it really a problem to have the chips run at those temperatures ? If the chip's lifespan still achieves let's say about 15 years that's probably enough. Weren't they managing temperatures the same way with Intel processors ? And I don't think the CPUs were known to fail ? Like you I genuinely don't know, but I would assume that Apple kinda knows what they're doing (although sometimes they make mistakes for sure)
@@timrault yeah it totally was the case with intel too and has been for over a decade, which seems to indicate it not being much of an issue otherwise macbooks would be failing left and right. Also it's also almost literally the same for virtually every Laptop no matter the manufacturer. To me it seems like the tech geek/nerd community, that likes to obsess and babysit their devices anyways has found a thing to be worried about. And now all of a sudden it's taken as a fact that hight temps are terrible. Fueled by tons of speculation rumors like the other guy here in this comment. But then again I don't really know for a fact either.
@@QualityDoggo apple also wouldn't want their devices to have a bad reputation, especially since with their own chips now it would go even more towards their name. So you're argument is as invalid as mine and doesn't prove anything it's just plain basic pointless speculation. Also high temps have been a thing for years now, and chip failures don't seem to be all that common. (Look at the comment above)
Did i see correctly that the M2 Max has a beefier heat pipe solution than the M1 Max? Good deal, now it just needs a slightly larger heat sink stack so the fans can disipate more heat for the same airflow
I think its all about how amazing TSMC manufacturing node is. It clearly looks that chip manufactured by TSMC can easily handle temperatures higher than Intel processors. Its not only Apple - Ryzen 7000 processors also run very hot and AMD told directly that those chips are fine with 90C+ temperatures. If two biggest companies using TSMC 5nm fabs are saying this then I think its safe to assume that its fine as long as those temps dont make laptop too warm to use.
I think people who are buying the 512gb macbook, and want to transfer large files are more often using external ssd. I in fact have an external storage and copying large files from the internal would be faster with faster internal ssd. But I get Lukes opinion as well!
Thanks I just bought today the baseline M2 Max 14" MacBook Pro with 2 TB today to upgrade from my M1 Mac mini. and planning to dock the computer at home. I am so excited!!
I'd rather get an M2 Pro MacBook Pro (for now), if only to avoid the 108° C. temperature issue. Hopefully, Apple with the M3 MacBook Pro models redesign the case with both active fan cooling and passive vapor chamber cooling to keep the SoC running reasonably cool.
As someone who really wants a quiet, long battery life, high build quality powerful media and CAD computer. But saving money is quite a big commitment, should I get an M1 pro 16, m2, or something else?
We just upgraded everyone to M1 MB Airs, and 2 M1 iMacs last year so there is no need to upgrade at this point. I am noticing the line between Pro and non Pro in the Apple ecosystem is getting more and more defined. For the average user, there would be no issues with the base models.
Interesting comparison. Regarding the GPU is looks like the improvement is mostly due to the number of cores and that the cores perform marginally better (
Reviews typically say RAM has little to no factor in most tests whether plugged in or not, but I have the same M1 Max MBP with 64 GB and I get slightly more than 120fps and almost 20200 without messing around with any settings in Wild Life Extreme.
Look at that 3D mark graph, it’s clearly capping at 120fps (maximum screen refresh rate). So the reason the gain is so small is that we’ve reached the limit of that benchmark, unless it can be unlocked, I think.
I told my partner how much I liked this review, and she said, “I could fall asleep right now.” Lol. (she was sitting next to me while I was watching it.) don’t take a personal Luke. She thinks all tech videos are boring.
Since M1 Apple are back in business, I remember when transition from Intel was rumored and AMD was a probably option to go, this could be ok... but going for their own silicon at that power and efficiency was mind-blowing, when I watch those videos and talks about fans it's the only time I think about it, I never, never heard my 14" MacBook Pro fans, only when I'm gaming (yes, I play a little Rocket League and other games) the fans are "loud" but not even like the MacBook Pro with Intel I had or like laptops of friends, and even gaming I never hear it because my AirPods, I mean... it's the best experience I ever had with a computer, so glad to see Apple is on the right way, can't way to see what's next!
M1 chips were bottlenecked for 3d and ray trading largely due to cash, they’ve increased cash for cores hugely and now we get this increase. Apps which were relying mostly on frequency didn’t suffer from this bottleneck, therefore increase is very marginal
Hi, about 3Dmark I think it's probably because it hit 120fps (screen refresh rate max ?), so because it stop at 120fps it cannot show when M2 should hit more than that. As you can see on the graph, it's almost flat on the M2max but fall lot more time on the M1.
If it's getting hot, then don't buy it. Or put a air conditioner on it. Use it in the snow. I know Don't turn it on, that would keep temperatures down.
Apple did a smart move, now under the holiday they have had 10 percent off all 14 and 16-inch MacBook Pros for people to buy MacBooks for Christmas as a gift maybe, apple is the kind of company you would like to flex with so they take advantage of this, so now imagine you just bought a brand new MacBook for Christmas and now you can say I have the newest and best MacBook they have to offer! But then apple decides to release this new MacBook in January to get people to upgrade to the newer version because why not you still got a 100 % return guaranty and then you have to pay them the extra money for the "Better" chip, so you can say that you have the latest. That's at least how I look at it. Or something like that
Did you make some benchmarks, how the M2 MAX will perform in low power mode? That might give less temperature on the chip, but still a great performance.
Love the video but one mistake you made is in the graphs where you showed Performace, Temperatuee and Fan Speed you made them all percentages. The temperature was supposed to be degrees Celcius not percentage.
Thank god they are actually pushing these chips, cooling was amazing on my 16in M1 Pro max and was a bit mad they didn’t push the performance to the max
The good thing about Apple computers is just how resilient they are. As much as the price of the M2 Max hurts my soul, I know I'm buying something that will be solid for years to come. I'm on a super old i5 MacBook that is really starting to fall behind in performance by today's standards. I'm probably going to pick up the 16" MacBook M2 Max and hope it holds up as well as my previous MacBooks have. If I were on a M1 MacBook, I definitely wouldn't upgrade.
My laptop just died so went out and picked up the M2 Max for the same reason. I don’t see anything slowing this thing down for years. Really beautiful and powerful machine.
I think Apple's choice to let the chip get hot is them really taking the years of "my Intel Macbook Pro sounds like a jet taking off" and the last 2 years of "omg the Apple Silicon computers are SO SILENT!" to heart. But like you demonstrated in the graph, they might have gone too far with it. Pull back on the heat a tad and let the fans spin up just enough to have a cooling effect while being slightly audible but not LOUD would be the functional sweet spot i think.
A large chunk of its customers is music producers. That's why Apple is obsessed with silence. Apple highlighted that it tweaks Mac Pro to make it as quiet as possible.
Benchmarks are still suboptimal almost across the board for Apple Silicon so expect temps, fan noise & scores to increase as time goes by as developers get to grips with tile memory & Maxon updates Cinebench with the current Embree library. 3D Mark appears to need some work (where are the power draw figures?) but Gfxbench is quite optimal and showing fair scaling - it was the raster 3D benchmark which showed the M1 Ultra 64 outperforming the RTX3090 (you had to look into the figures).
@@garrusvakarian8709 valid and the 3D Mark graph clearly shows the cap. I was more concerned with Cinebench (old libraries) and Geekbench compute which is only scaling to 2.8x rather than 4.75x GPU core count (GPU compute should scale well) - can't recall if he does GB though.
Could you please do a video on the current 14 inch M2 Max vs last year’s 16 inch M1 Max? I’ve heard that the 14 inch form factor is more prone to throttling but I don’t know if I believe it. Also, how does the base/binned M2 Max with 30 GPU cores compare to the full-on M1 Max with 32 GPU cores? That would REALLY be interesting to see! Again, great vid Luke.
As an owner of M1PRO 16inch macbook I can tell you - this chassis can not quietly and safely cool more than what M1PRO can produce. It spits out 55W in sth like Blender and 75W if you crank R23 and 3DMark. With fans blasting full tilt, it can maintain high 80s. If you let it do its thing, it'll bounce off 100 and over that. To push 100W through it - it can not cool that safely. And running at 110 degrees is not okay, no matter what anyone tells you. And these laptops might be 20% faster, but they're 25% more expensive - at least in my country. So you gain nothing. It's a mid generation cycle update, a definite skip for M1 generation users.
I have no problem with the thermals rant because it is physically painful when people complain about the machine throttling just because the temps on the hottest part of the chip are high. This is even more true in reporting about the MacBook Air with doesn’t even have a fan. The only way to actually experience throttling on the M2 Air is to do workloads that you really should be using a MacBook Pro to perform.
The funny part is that running a pc on a hot temperature WILL ruin the chips after some time. So I‘m not gonna be surprised when a few MacBook Pros will break because of chip failure…
I'm sure Apple has done the testing and likely knows that 110c is fine for the chips long term. Silicon can handle quite high temps before suffering damage. modern chips can easily run at 110c all day every day for years and be fine. However I would personally like more headroom or at least a turbo fans option that turns them on at 80c and maintains a temp below 95c.
It would be cool if Apple did what Dell does. Dell gives you multiple profiles (full speed, cool, quiet) for the fan speed, performance and efficiency.
Nice overview of the thermal situation. Something I find odd is that certain tech channels (I've seen LTT do it) freak out about these high temperatures and say they'll reduce longevity. But is there any actual evidence of these 100C temps reducing longevity or causing any real harm to Macs whatsoever? Not that I've seen.
@@rrsharizam I believe Collin was asking for actual experimental data to back up people's intuition that heat reduces longevity. Until that data can be supplied, folks are just offering their unsubstantiated opinions. I mean, here's an unsubstantiated opinion. Perhaps Apple has done rigorous tests on the M series chips and found they can run at higher temperatures without a compromise in longevity. Thus, the software engineers have been told to let them run at higher temperatures and lower fan speeds. Who knows? Could be true. Maybe not. Be wary of things that seem to make sense...at least, until someone shows you the numbers. History has shown us on many, many occasions that nature is trickier than we realize.
@@SignorLuigi Apple might have done its own testing and concluded that it is within their own acceptable limit. But to say that higher temperature does not affect longevity is straight up insane. Its life might be reduced by a few seconds, or minutes, or months, who knows? But the point is higher temperature will always reduce the longevity to a certain degree
@@KhoaNguyen-sy6np So, this is ordinary law of thermodynamics and physics... The heat will slowly cook the components, even if the SoC can handle those temps, the components around will suffer from the heat produced. You can put a chicken in the oven at 120 degrees, and it will slow cook for 7-8 hours, or, you can set the oven at 370 degrees and have it done in an hour. Believe it or not, the same concept applies to computer. Things will toast over time, even if the computer is running at 54 degrees all the time... Thats why is not a debate. The true question should be, how high temps the other components can handle and for how long until is broken.
I don't think the SSD thing is a big deal, if it's going to affect you that sucks but maybe just don't buy the model that has the problem. And it's good to see that the higher storage tiers have even faster SSDs.
Is this still true of the M2 Max on 14"? I've seen games run way slower on the 14" M2 Max vs the 16" M2 Max. Can I increase fan speed on the 14" M2 Max to match performance with the 16" M2 Max? And if so, to what degree? Will the fans be ludicrously loud if I want to match the 16" M2 Max at whisper quiet fan speeds?
Apple is playing a dangerous game with their default fan curves. Near the end of my trashcan 2013 Mac Pro's life, the GPUs were causing random artifacts in renders. I had to use Mac fan control to turn the fans on max to get more reliable renders. I think the new M2 machines are good, but I would use a program to tune the fans more aggressively. Personally thinking of doing that with my M1 Max even. Just because in their lab their testing shows they can get away with these temps doesn't mean they know how it all shakes out long-term.
Damn, I wish Apple would have been a little more patient with the M series of chips. We don't need a new chip every 1-2 years, M1 is still going strong and M2 looks like they just added more cores and upped the frequency. If they would have waited for 3nm process to be ready then M2 could have been a much bigger jump from M1, now we will only see that in M3 and M2 will be remembered as the stop gap generation.
I have a M1 MacBook Air. I got it a year and a month ago. I have never got it to warm. What’s crazy is that have never gotten it warm. I mainly use for home use and some work from home when I leave my work laptop at the office. It’s been a nice little machine, especially when not using Safari. 🤣
You probably know this, but there's an app for MacOS that lets you take control of your fans. You can set a threshold for when they should start kicking in, so you don't even need an official update from Apple.
There is a terminal command for Mac that I use all the time on intel machines that will tell you if the cpu is throttling and how much it is throttling. I have not tried it on Apple silicon yet but it should still work.
Apple Fanboys talking trash about the Intel Chips and that they are great waffle makers etc. They just go up to 95 degrees and laptops like the Titan keep it at 80 to 85 degrees. Now hows your waffle-making going.
About your comment on temperature; fans pegged at 100% and temperatures in the mid 90's. This only applies to the high end of the market. My mid-range laptop maxes out @75C on average, nothing I can do can make it push 83, ever (flaming NVMe, blitzed CPU/GPU/RAM). This is with one fan. Though a higher end chip would push more temperature easily.
Luke, is there a real performance/thermal difference between 12/19 M2 Pro MacBook Air 14 and base model M2 Pro MacBook Pro 16 ? Considering buying M2 Pro model, but I’m torn between 14 and 16 inch I like how compact 14 inch is, but I love how cool and silent is 16 inch model It will be my main computer for work and daily use
Thank you Luke for explaining to me that I should keep my M1 and forget about upgrades until 3 nanometer tech is here.
Unless you're getting a Mac Mini
There's never reason to upgrade to next generation of Apple - it is good to skip at least THREE.
3nm is a brand, it’s not Actualy 3nm
Don’t take that as an absolute, but it’s a good recommendation for 90+% of users. For a small percentage of people, the M2, and especially the M2 Pro improvements will be worth the upgrade.
Cost/benefit analysis. If the cost to upgrade (including time to copy all apps and data), less the value of trade-in/resale of old machine will be more than offset by the productivity increase of having a machine that is ~20% faster (10%-40%) for the next 9-12 months, then you should upgrade ASAP. If not, you should wait.
@@piotrd.4850 unless you bought the last of the intel MacBooks. I’m so glad my gut said buy a nice tv. It delayed my purchase for 3 months and I bought a m1 MacBook Pro. I know myself if I went the other way and bought it I would have replaced it within the year.
Regarding the 3DMark test, the "small difference" seems to be because the absolute max score one could get is 20,000. Both machines are trying to achieve 120 fps during the entire test, which the M2 got incredibly close, while the M1 has a lot more drops in the frame rate. A better way to look at these scores would be, M1 Max: 18.79/20 vs. M2 Max: 19.91/20. I think that helps communicate how much better the M2 Max really is!
These crazy and abritrary videos that are useless to the average person except for us small minority of people are why I’m subscribed to Luke Miani
Lol, it’s like reading reviews on the new Z06…I’ll never have one but it’s fun to read about. I say this as someone who has a MBA M1 and a few MBA vintage 2012-2013.
Most people only need 64 gb ram
Super relevant to me - I’m deciding if I’ll upgrade. Thanks Luke
@@kateofone agree. Depends of the workflow but that's right
I’m sayinnnnn
It would be interesting to do a battery test running the fans at stock, 50%, and maxed out while operating the same tasks.
Hi Mark, this reply we both got in our posts, is it a spam msg?
@@giorgos7six yes
@@tadhgd350 doesn’t Luke reply, or fix this spam issue?
if you increase the fan speed it will eat battery life faster. I think Apple sacrificed temp to keep battery life comparable to the M1.
@@giorgos7six kinda hard to fix the spam issues
I have an intel MBP i9, and I have used it for 3d for five years now. 100 celcius is common, and yet everything still works just fine.
Maybe a thermal paste change
Would be great
“Secret battery test whoooaah!” Haha that cracked me up. Luke you are such a natural presenter, its always a pleasure to watch your channel. Great useful review.
I would rather have lower temps and a little more fan noise. That's why I use TG Pro.
Same, I don’t like the idea that my SOC is just baking at 104C all the time
fully agreed.
I agree. I want to always get the most out of my cooling system and keep my temperatures as low as possible. Fans certainly have a purpose and they should be used.
Yeah my Dell laptop has that option to adjust the fan speed and performance.
You know what would be a useful M2 Max video? One without a click bait title.
We saw with the M2 MB Air that Apple are confident that 108 degrees are acceptable for these chips to run at. I suspect they have tested them, and there are no long-term issues. Maybe, with the M1, they were overly careful as they were releasing ground-breaking products. So, I have no issues with the temp, and if I did, I would just run the fans at a higher RPM to lower them.
Bearing that most of us rarely run at full load, the occasional 100% blowout will be fine.
Maybe they capped the M1's because Apple had to prove the M1's were capable machines that didn't run super hot. That proving was already done, so with M2 they decided to push the silicon to it's limit. I assume they will do the same with M3
Could the 120 fps cap on the wildlife extreme test be limiting the gpus? Maybe that's why the difference seems so small. From the graph it looked like both macs were hitting the 120 fps maximum other than a few dips.
about to comment this
Well, they did up the performance by 20-30%... and upped power usage by about the same. With the same cooling solutions and chassis, you get thermals to deal with. This is not at all to say that the M2 MBP is a bad machine, just that you either let it get hot, or use software to adjust the fan curve and possibly get a bit of extra noise.
Yes, no big deal, and techies, the main viewers of videos like this, should not be worried about using a fan app to vary RPM!
Got my M2 Max 16 last week and I am absolutely blown away. Granted, she did replace a 2017 MBP and a 2018 Mini, so I was easily impressed. My cat loves how hot it runs, too!
haha, careful though. kitty hairs and macbook fans dont mix well =D
Who would knew a new mac would be faster than 6 year old mac.?
I am buying the 16 inch M2 Pro with 32GB of RAM and 1TB of storage. Good video!
Great video! One thing I wanted to point as for the 3dmark test. I think the frame rate is capped at the refresh rate of the display (120fps). I think that's why the test were so close. If you look at the graph displayed under the results you can see it's hitting that threshold.
Kinda glad I got an M1 MBP 16", heat is the enemy of laptops and my last Intel MBP suffered a swollen battery and screen problems due to the heat it generated.
@shaanz Yes they are a greedy company unfortunately
The fact the heat sink for the cpu is literally half the size on the m2 pro/max versions probably doesn't help with keeping the temps down either. I'm really curious about how the 14" m2 max thermals perform, but nobody has made a video about it yet...
Low fan speeds aren't just for noise. It also affects battery life. Why run the fans higher if they don't need to be? That would literally just waste battery. Apple engineered the system, I'm sure they put A LOT more thought into what temps the SOC can tolerate. Unless the thing is uncomfortably warm on your lap, who the hell cares what temp the cores are?
This is an actually USEFUL video indeed. I would love to see the same comparison between 14" M1 MAX vs 14" M2 MAX vs 14" PRO, battery-life, thermals and throttling wise :)
Same!
coffe?
This!
MaxTech does those videos
Same!
I wouldn't even mind having a bit more fan noise when needed that is no problem with these units.
As always THANKS so much. What about the 14 inch M2 Max with 30 graphic cores? I am upgrading from a 2015 Core i7 quad core macbook pro. Will I notice a difference while using final cut?
Great video and just the kind of analysis I was looking for. If I had one of these, I'd run the fans hard while working on video editing or exporting video/audio. That could maybe help the laptops last longer.
5:00. It's worth noting that the rate of thermal transfer between two systems (say your CPU and the environment) is in large part controlled by the delta (difference) between those two systems. So by letting the chip run hotter, not only do you get less fan noise (because the fan is moving slower), but you actually get more cooling effect per CFM. Of course, there are other considerations as well, such as component life, but we just have to hope Apple knows what they're doing.
Wow that’s awesome. I need to get a new laptop (my old one is from 2009, 17”), I keep procrastinating, nice work Luke!
I agree with Apple. 99% of the time you are not going to be maxing all the cores, and definitely not for a sustained amount of time. You might compile for a few seconds, or spend 10 minutes outputting a video. High temps every once in a while won't hurt anything.
On the thermals issue, it seems like the biggest problem with running them so hot so long is lessened hardware durability.
Is it though? I'm not saying it isn't, I don't know! But it seems to me like no one really knows and nobody ever really tested to see if there's actually any truth to that.
If there has been proper testing documented on this please let know! I'm very open to read it and be convinced otherwise, but I'm annoyed at everybody stating the durability thing as if it was a fact.
@@meislit9217 I was wondering about the same thing, is it really a problem to have the chips run at those temperatures ? If the chip's lifespan still achieves let's say about 15 years that's probably enough. Weren't they managing temperatures the same way with Intel processors ? And I don't think the CPUs were known to fail ? Like you I genuinely don't know, but I would assume that Apple kinda knows what they're doing (although sometimes they make mistakes for sure)
Apple doesn't want people to keep their devices very long anyways... hmm... convenient :/
@@timrault yeah it totally was the case with intel too and has been for over a decade, which seems to indicate it not being much of an issue otherwise macbooks would be failing left and right. Also it's also almost literally the same for virtually every Laptop no matter the manufacturer.
To me it seems like the tech geek/nerd community, that likes to obsess and babysit their devices anyways has found a thing to be worried about. And now all of a sudden it's taken as a fact that hight temps are terrible. Fueled by tons of speculation rumors like the other guy here in this comment.
But then again I don't really know for a fact either.
@@QualityDoggo apple also wouldn't want their devices to have a bad reputation, especially since with their own chips now it would go even more towards their name. So you're argument is as invalid as mine and doesn't prove anything it's just plain basic pointless speculation.
Also high temps have been a thing for years now, and chip failures don't seem to be all that common. (Look at the comment above)
Thanks for the heads up Luke about these chips and the tests you did! Can’t wait to see what M3 and beyond bring to the table.
Not much I think except all the improvement will come from TSMC
Did i see correctly that the M2 Max has a beefier heat pipe solution than the M1 Max?
Good deal, now it just needs a slightly larger heat sink stack so the fans can disipate more heat for the same airflow
I think its all about how amazing TSMC manufacturing node is. It clearly looks that chip manufactured by TSMC can easily handle temperatures higher than Intel processors. Its not only Apple - Ryzen 7000 processors also run very hot and AMD told directly that those chips are fine with 90C+ temperatures. If two biggest companies using TSMC 5nm fabs are saying this then I think its safe to assume that its fine as long as those temps dont make laptop too warm to use.
I think people who are buying the 512gb macbook, and want to transfer large files are more often using external ssd. I in fact have an external storage and copying large files from the internal would be faster with faster internal ssd. But I get Lukes opinion as well!
Nope nope..., internal ssd is crucial for system such as swap memory
100 degrees c?? My ryzen 7 which is known for running very hot only peaks 85 degrees c at max 💀
Used 14 & 16 M1 Pro mbp are really great deals at the moment. Way cheaper for not much less performance
Any tips on where to find these deals?
This old i7 running Ventura was $180. And your videos look fine on it. Laughing all the way to the bank...
The TG Pro tip for setting fan speed is absolutely invaluable thanks a lot for that! Strange decision from Apple to let the chips get so hot
its a heat vs battery life/noise tradeoff.
Kinda weird why Apple hasn't increase the cooling performance?
Thanks I just bought today the baseline M2 Max 14" MacBook Pro with 2 TB today to upgrade from my M1 Mac mini. and planning to dock the computer at home. I am so excited!!
How do you like the 14 ''? How's the battery life and fan noise ? Do you have 30c or 38c?
I'd rather get an M2 Pro MacBook Pro (for now), if only to avoid the 108° C. temperature issue. Hopefully, Apple with the M3 MacBook Pro models redesign the case with both active fan cooling and passive vapor chamber cooling to keep the SoC running reasonably cool.
As someone who really wants a quiet, long battery life, high build quality powerful media and CAD computer. But saving money is quite a big commitment, should I get an M1 pro 16, m2, or something else?
We just upgraded everyone to M1 MB Airs, and 2 M1 iMacs last year so there is no need to upgrade at this point. I am noticing the line between Pro and non Pro in the Apple ecosystem is getting more and more defined. For the average user, there would be no issues with the base models.
12:48 the battery test twist ending and the “Whoaooaaoo” lololol
The high temperature is a problem for me if the fans are audible. I'll be interested to see what happens with any upgrades to the mac studio.
Interesting comparison.
Regarding the GPU is looks like the improvement is mostly due to the number of cores and that the cores perform marginally better (
MadOnion was not founded in 1997 to be called a little iPhone benchmark🤣
Reviews typically say RAM has little to no factor in most tests whether plugged in or not, but I have the same M1 Max MBP with 64 GB and I get slightly more than 120fps and almost 20200 without messing around with any settings in Wild Life Extreme.
Where can we find the wallpaper? 😃
I wish I was there to see the launch reactions of the late 2013 to mid 2015 15in Retinas, because their generational differences are so minimal
Your explanation about thermal throttle is on the point 👌🏼
Look at that 3D mark graph, it’s clearly capping at 120fps (maximum screen refresh rate). So the reason the gain is so small is that we’ve reached the limit of that benchmark, unless it can be unlocked, I think.
Helpful review-clarifies why I might go M2 Max over M1 Max for my first Apple silicon Mac purchase!
I told my partner how much I liked this review, and she said, “I could fall asleep right now.” Lol. (she was sitting next to me while I was watching it.) don’t take a personal Luke. She thinks all tech videos are boring.
So Luke, are these M2 Macs worth buying over the M1s ? Let's say I don't have either. Would you consider waiting for the M3 chips?
TBH the M2 stuff is great, but if you're not in a rush I think M3 might be worth the wait!
Since M1 Apple are back in business, I remember when transition from Intel was rumored and AMD was a probably option to go, this could be ok... but going for their own silicon at that power and efficiency was mind-blowing, when I watch those videos and talks about fans it's the only time I think about it, I never, never heard my 14" MacBook Pro fans, only when I'm gaming (yes, I play a little Rocket League and other games) the fans are "loud" but not even like the MacBook Pro with Intel I had or like laptops of friends, and even gaming I never hear it because my AirPods, I mean... it's the best experience I ever had with a computer, so glad to see Apple is on the right way, can't way to see what's next!
M1 chips were bottlenecked for 3d and ray trading largely due to cash, they’ve increased cash for cores hugely and now we get this increase. Apps which were relying mostly on frequency didn’t suffer from this bottleneck, therefore increase is very marginal
Hi, about 3Dmark I think it's probably because it hit 120fps (screen refresh rate max ?), so because it stop at 120fps it cannot show when M2 should hit more than that. As you can see on the graph, it's almost flat on the M2max but fall lot more time on the M1.
If it's getting hot, then don't buy it.
Or put a air conditioner on it.
Use it in the snow.
I know Don't turn it on, that would keep temperatures down.
Apple did a smart move, now under the holiday they have had 10 percent off all 14 and 16-inch MacBook Pros for people to buy MacBooks for Christmas as a gift maybe, apple is the kind of company you would like to flex with so they take advantage of this, so now imagine you just bought a brand new MacBook for Christmas and now you can say I have the newest and best MacBook they have to offer! But then apple decides to release this new MacBook in January to get people to upgrade to the newer version because why not you still got a 100 % return guaranty and then you have to pay them the extra money for the "Better" chip, so you can say that you have the latest. That's at least how I look at it. Or something like that
Did you make some benchmarks, how the M2 MAX will perform in low power mode? That might give less temperature on the chip, but still a great performance.
Love the video but one mistake you made is in the graphs where you showed Performace, Temperatuee and Fan Speed you made them all percentages. The temperature was supposed to be degrees Celcius not percentage.
I’ve ordered the 14” MBP - M2 Max 30c GPU - 32GB - 1TB… I hope it is fine with editing videos professionally with resolutions up to 6K.
Thank god they are actually pushing these chips, cooling was amazing on my 16in M1 Pro max and was a bit mad they didn’t push the performance to the max
The good thing about Apple computers is just how resilient they are. As much as the price of the M2 Max hurts my soul, I know I'm buying something that will be solid for years to come. I'm on a super old i5 MacBook that is really starting to fall behind in performance by today's standards. I'm probably going to pick up the 16" MacBook M2 Max and hope it holds up as well as my previous MacBooks have. If I were on a M1 MacBook, I definitely wouldn't upgrade.
My laptop just died so went out and picked up the M2 Max for the same reason. I don’t see anything slowing this thing down for years. Really beautiful and powerful machine.
9:46 is that morty?😂
I think Apple's choice to let the chip get hot is them really taking the years of "my Intel Macbook Pro sounds like a jet taking off" and the last 2 years of "omg the Apple Silicon computers are SO SILENT!" to heart. But like you demonstrated in the graph, they might have gone too far with it. Pull back on the heat a tad and let the fans spin up just enough to have a cooling effect while being slightly audible but not LOUD would be the functional sweet spot i think.
A large chunk of its customers is music producers. That's why Apple is obsessed with silence. Apple highlighted that it tweaks Mac Pro to make it as quiet as possible.
Unless you never touched your M1 Max, its logical that the battery lost around 5% of capacity through time, I don't think there is a difference there.
To hell with Fans and Heat. I’m waiting for the 3nm. I think my M1 13inch is da bomb.
Thats what calculated obsolescence means, that constant temp will kill the chip in less time, someone will do a way to change how these fans work
Benchmarks are still suboptimal almost across the board for Apple Silicon so expect temps, fan noise & scores to increase as time goes by as developers get to grips with tile memory & Maxon updates Cinebench with the current Embree library.
3D Mark appears to need some work (where are the power draw figures?) but Gfxbench is quite optimal and showing fair scaling - it was the raster 3D benchmark which showed the M1 Ultra 64 outperforming the RTX3090 (you had to look into the figures).
@@garrusvakarian8709 valid and the 3D Mark graph clearly shows the cap. I was more concerned with Cinebench (old libraries) and Geekbench compute which is only scaling to 2.8x rather than 4.75x GPU core count (GPU compute should scale well) - can't recall if he does GB though.
Could you please do a video on the current 14 inch M2 Max vs last year’s 16 inch M1 Max? I’ve heard that the 14 inch form factor is more prone to throttling but I don’t know if I believe it. Also, how does the base/binned M2 Max with 30 GPU cores compare to the full-on M1 Max with 32 GPU cores? That would REALLY be interesting to see!
Again, great vid Luke.
As an owner of M1PRO 16inch macbook I can tell you - this chassis can not quietly and safely cool more than what M1PRO can produce. It spits out 55W in sth like Blender and 75W if you crank R23 and 3DMark. With fans blasting full tilt, it can maintain high 80s. If you let it do its thing, it'll bounce off 100 and over that.
To push 100W through it - it can not cool that safely. And running at 110 degrees is not okay, no matter what anyone tells you. And these laptops might be 20% faster, but they're 25% more expensive - at least in my country. So you gain nothing. It's a mid generation cycle update, a definite skip for M1 generation users.
I have no problem with the thermals rant because it is physically painful when people complain about the machine throttling just because the temps on the hottest part of the chip are high. This is even more true in reporting about the MacBook Air with doesn’t even have a fan. The only way to actually experience throttling on the M2 Air is to do workloads that you really should be using a MacBook Pro to perform.
Imagine testing the brand new M2 and the older M1 against a M2 .Mac Mini or even an iPod Touch against the brand new Apple Watch ultra !
iPhone 4 / iPhone 4s situation. Neat!
Would love to see Logic Pro X Audio track tests across the ecosystem as well
The Best Buy program is actually REALLY good if you need/want a mac
The funny part is that running a pc on a hot temperature WILL ruin the chips after some time. So I‘m not gonna be surprised when a few MacBook Pros will break because of chip failure…
I expect Apple has tested to avoid class lawsuits down the line, so I suspect you might be wrong there.
I'm sure Apple has done the testing and likely knows that 110c is fine for the chips long term. Silicon can handle quite high temps before suffering damage. modern chips can easily run at 110c all day every day for years and be fine. However I would personally like more headroom or at least a turbo fans option that turns them on at 80c and maintains a temp below 95c.
It would be cool if Apple did what Dell does. Dell gives you multiple profiles (full speed, cool, quiet) for the fan speed, performance and efficiency.
Nice overview of the thermal situation. Something I find odd is that certain tech channels (I've seen LTT do it) freak out about these high temperatures and say they'll reduce longevity. But is there any actual evidence of these 100C temps reducing longevity or causing any real harm to Macs whatsoever? Not that I've seen.
A higher temperature will always reduce longevity. That's not a debate really 🤦♀️
@@rrsharizam
Source?
@@rrsharizam I believe Collin was asking for actual experimental data to back up people's intuition that heat reduces longevity. Until that data can be supplied, folks are just offering their unsubstantiated opinions. I mean, here's an unsubstantiated opinion. Perhaps Apple has done rigorous tests on the M series chips and found they can run at higher temperatures without a compromise in longevity. Thus, the software engineers have been told to let them run at higher temperatures and lower fan speeds. Who knows? Could be true. Maybe not. Be wary of things that seem to make sense...at least, until someone shows you the numbers. History has shown us on many, many occasions that nature is trickier than we realize.
@@SignorLuigi Apple might have done its own testing and concluded that it is within their own acceptable limit. But to say that higher temperature does not affect longevity is straight up insane. Its life might be reduced by a few seconds, or minutes, or months, who knows? But the point is higher temperature will always reduce the longevity to a certain degree
@@KhoaNguyen-sy6np So, this is ordinary law of thermodynamics and physics... The heat will slowly cook the components, even if the SoC can handle those temps, the components around will suffer from the heat produced. You can put a chicken in the oven at 120 degrees, and it will slow cook for 7-8 hours, or, you can set the oven at 370 degrees and have it done in an hour. Believe it or not, the same concept applies to computer. Things will toast over time, even if the computer is running at 54 degrees all the time... Thats why is not a debate. The true question should be, how high temps the other components can handle and for how long until is broken.
Can you use a 3rd party heat sink pad to reduce the heat?
I don't think the SSD thing is a big deal, if it's going to affect you that sucks but maybe just don't buy the model that has the problem. And it's good to see that the higher storage tiers have even faster SSDs.
so what's your say? Is the M2 not good buy for all devices? I'll get a 16inch but I think M1 is still good right
Is this still true of the M2 Max on 14"? I've seen games run way slower on the 14" M2 Max vs the 16" M2 Max. Can I increase fan speed on the 14" M2 Max to match performance with the 16" M2 Max? And if so, to what degree? Will the fans be ludicrously loud if I want to match the 16" M2 Max at whisper quiet fan speeds?
I really can't understand how they can run hotter when they seemingly draw less power. Is it only with "normal" use they draw less?
Humbly, Ylan
Does the mac feel hot when you do everyday tasks?
Cold as ice.
Hello. At the same price would you buy a Macbook Pro 14 with an M2 Max 32Gb Ram ou an M3 pro CPU 18Gb Ram? Thanks 😊
Apple is playing a dangerous game with their default fan curves. Near the end of my trashcan 2013 Mac Pro's life, the GPUs were causing random artifacts in renders. I had to use Mac fan control to turn the fans on max to get more reliable renders. I think the new M2 machines are good, but I would use a program to tune the fans more aggressively. Personally thinking of doing that with my M1 Max even. Just because in their lab their testing shows they can get away with these temps doesn't mean they know how it all shakes out long-term.
Ridiculous running these so hot... the fan can go faster for a reason
Damn, I wish Apple would have been a little more patient with the M series of chips. We don't need a new chip every 1-2 years, M1 is still going strong and M2 looks like they just added more cores and upped the frequency. If they would have waited for 3nm process to be ready then M2 could have been a much bigger jump from M1, now we will only see that in M3 and M2 will be remembered as the stop gap generation.
unless if you edit 4k videos, get an M2 MBA. My only thing on that is that they shoulda made one with 32GB RAM.
The one with M1 Max: “Yesterday you said I was surprising and incredible, today you have your new girlfriend 😢”
awesome that you got a best buy sponsorship. thats big league. wtg Luke
I have a M1 MacBook Air. I got it a year and a month ago. I have never got it to warm. What’s crazy is that have never gotten it warm. I mainly use for home use and some work from home when I leave my work laptop at the office. It’s been a nice little machine, especially when not using Safari. 🤣
You probably know this, but there's an app for MacOS that lets you take control of your fans. You can set a threshold for when they should start kicking in, so you don't even need an official update from Apple.
There is a terminal command for Mac that I use all the time on intel machines that will tell you if the cpu is throttling and how much it is throttling. I have not tried it on Apple silicon yet but it should still work.
And what’s the command, please?
pmset -g thermlog
Looks like the 3nm architecture is desperately needed. Yep, I'll wait for the M3 models.
Can you add a link to the background on your M1 Max MacBook Pro? I really love it!
Apple Fanboys talking trash about the Intel Chips and that they are great waffle makers etc. They just go up to 95 degrees and laptops like the Titan keep it at 80 to 85 degrees. Now hows your waffle-making going.
About your comment on temperature; fans pegged at 100% and temperatures in the mid 90's. This only applies to the high end of the market. My mid-range laptop maxes out @75C on average, nothing I can do can make it push 83, ever (flaming NVMe, blitzed CPU/GPU/RAM). This is with one fan. Though a higher end chip would push more temperature easily.
00:16 this transition is just on another level. How did you make it?
Luke, is there a real performance/thermal difference between 12/19 M2 Pro MacBook Air 14 and base model M2 Pro MacBook Pro 16 ? Considering buying M2 Pro model, but I’m torn between 14 and 16 inch
I like how compact 14 inch is, but I love how cool and silent is 16 inch model
It will be my main computer for work and daily use
102 degrees in cpu... considering the back panel is metal, wouldn't that be a potential hazard for burns on skin?