I can't speak for everyone else, but I really enjoy these videos. You actually take the time to explain the reasons why you do things. I see a lot of videos about how to fix horse problems that were caused by people not knowing what to do or getting bad advice. I found out really quickly that horses aren't very forgiving. I have had to learn that the hard way because I did the wrong thing or listened to the wrong advice. It is pretty humbling. Once again thank you for sharing your knowledge and your philosophies.
Thank you for pointing out what actual collection is. I’ve lost two clients pretty quickly lately because they each got mad at me concerning the difference between true collection and just a “pretty” headset. One refused to take off the side reins (which were also too tight in my opinion) on their “English” TB horse who had been given a chance to sit in a stall primarily for a couple years and just needed to be conditioned in my opinion; not put in “a frame,” like the owner kept insisting. I told her to get him out of his stall and start hand walking him 5 miles a day and do a lot of long trotting in as straight of a line as she could, not worrying about where his head was. I didn’t even think he had the physical capability to be balanced with his head in side reins that weren’t too tight, without fatigue and tripping in the arena on a 15’ lunge line. She just laughed and told me she didn’t think she could even walk 5 miles a day, and didn’t care to spend THAT much time with her horse. My last words to her was, why not lease or sell him to someone who actually likes him and wants to put in the time then? We’ll see what she does. Here in Alaska where I live in and work, many don’t have the luxury of huge pastures to turn horses out on, and even in the fields I ride in, we had 5’ of snow until just this week, so I hand walk all my young horses (even the yearlings) several times a week, and even my riding horses after each ride. According to my phone app, I walk an average of 10 miles a day. Not ideal for my time, but very important I think for the horses. Do you think working straight is different than working in a smaller circle too? They each have their place? I’m one who tends to believe that a horse has to be also be straight before they can get collection. And flat work walking, and especially long trotting in an open field or in straight lines naturally makes a horse want to stretch down and lift their back as they relax and move out. Much like you all probably get to do when riding out to get a day’s work done? I grew up and have worked in places where we had big places to turn out and to ride straight, and I felt like that is something our horses here miss out on for many reasons. But I digress. My other student showed up dropping her hands (which caused her shoulders and eyes to drop down too) way down to her knees and seesawing to get the head hyperflexed, which I kept telling her was making him heavy on the front end. It looked to me like he was dragging himself around the arena. He was definitely not tracking up, had no flexion in his hocks and the rider wouldn’t work on transferring the horse’s weight on to his hind end. I’m not sure if it was because she was afraid to let him move freely, if it was something someone else told her to do to get collection (I asked and she said no) or if she just wasn’t wanting to put in the work to get the balance before the headset. The last lesson I had with her, I made her take the spurs off and start working on her leg strength, softer hands and a balanced seat, and she got tired early and left in tears. Her mom texted me later and said she was behind in school work and couldn’t keep riding right now. The next week she was back with a new instructor. Either way, They found someone who supports their ideas maybe. The one young gal came off and hit pretty hard just last night after her horse pitched a major fit as she was angrily spurring him to go forward at the lope and cranking on him to get his “poll flexed.” Her new instructor just laughed. SMH.
Hey A Davis, spinal dynamics govern limb dynamics. As such, the how the feet move school of thought is predicted and controlled by the horses spinal posture.. A really good and clear description of this school of thought can be obtained by studying Dr. Deb Bennets work of the last 50 years.. As for overtracking in a dressage horse. It is called an extended trot - and no you are wrong about extension being a product of collection.. Collection with an arched back or spine yields balanced movement at first with EQUAL weight on each of the horses 4 feet. At this stage collection is called self carriage. No charge for educating you. best Bruce Peek
Hey Bruce. I read all four of your comments. One was positive and the other three were snarky. I do truly love constructive feedback but nothing you had to say was constructive. It was mean hearted. I love talking with people that know more than me, and they are many, and I love to read peoples opinions. When one criticizes another in a way that is not constructive it does not make one seem better or smarter, it only shows the reader how small that persons cock is. In the future I would love to read what you have to say about horses and how to ride them. For now I will challenge you to first ride as many as I have and second get a camera ($4000) and build the skill set to stand in front of it and talk about what you know how to do. Once you have that we will talk. I will even fly over to the UK and speak with you over tea about it.
Excellent video! So glad to hear you explain proper collection, which is the same as I was taught. Tired of folks putting all the emphasis on the head and neck and calling it collection. When you are able, please show a roundpen session using the circus pole.
When I did round pen work ten years ago on my mature Reiner, I did it for the following reasons or goals: A) to expend some of his excess energy B) to get the horse to respect me as his leader C) to maintain his skills and maneuvers and D) to maintain my training skills and maneuvers. I really did not do much chasing, unless he was not listening or was testing me to see if he could do whatever he wanted. I would just stand there in the middle of the ring with a lunge whip in case he slowed down, changed gait, turned directions disrespectfully with his tail toward me, or stopped working by himself, without me asking him. (I did round pen work two ways-with a long lead rope attached or without a lead rope & using only a lunge whip and my body language.) But I never thought about improving his collection & balance. Perhaps that was because he was a mature reining push-button horse. He was really good in the arena but had issues with spooking out on the trail. I tried desensitizing techniques but they were not all that effective. I appreciate your insight and the time you’ve taken to explain this on video. Your expertise is quite valuable to us amateurs.
Thank you! and thank you for speaking for the amateurs. I find so many people get weird about that word. It does not mean you are not experienced, it means you dont get paid for it. I am pleased you like the work, I hope we can keep pleasing
Great stuff & much appreciate fireside chats! You mentioned in book like Mike Bridges, hind foot should move first - I haven't understood that in my research if someday you could help explain. Thanks.
Thank you for taking the time to do this video,as always thought provoking. Would you happen to have a video of you using your "circus pole"? Thank you!
Forgive my ignorance with this question. I have started getting into the world of "gaited" horses like the Tennessee walker etc. Does the topic of the hind foot landing in the track of the front foot apply to them horses who flat walk and whatnot? My gut says yes but idk so I had to ask. Thanks
Kinda depends. A horse is a horse so in order to be balanced and collected yes it still applies. However gaited horse shows are looking for specific movement and I dont know much about gaited horse shows. I would think the TW that lift there legs so high would not be able to
Tennessee walkers are supposed to overreach naturally with back feet. Their hind feet tracks should be past the front tracks. They also nod their heads every step. The natural head carriage is lower than show horses, but higher than QH. They're also supposed to canter, not just do their gait. Teach the cue just like you would to a QH. The natural TWH is a beautiful thing, show world is ridiculously unnatural. For trail horses, cut that toe and shoe them with regular shoes. No need for long toes to trip over or high knee action. I've also found a lot of gaited horses do better in round skirt saddles even if their back looks long. You can get hip rubs with long pads and saddles. Definitely built different lol.
It's "reward the smallest try". I can get a horse almost broke (handle) in a round pen. So many things can be accomplished in the round pen that so few people realize. Only a few things can't be taught like the run down, flying lead changes and traveling in a straight line for example. My students think they are ready to leave the round pen in a couple of weeks. I tell them I'm still using and riding in it after 47 years and they aren't even close, they look at me like I'm nuts like they should be leaving the kiddy mary go round. Most people lack the patience to really learn how to use one correctly. Almost all horses that come to me fly around like a bat out of hell when put in a round pen at first just like you were mentioning. I will look for foot placement next time I round pen. Question - what is a circus pole?
@@HorsemanshipAsAnArtAlmost sounds kinky, not sure my wife would approve but hay let's go for it. Yes that would be helpful along with the video you told me you would do about the temporary tying at the horn for doctoring cattle. I typically free lunge my horses but am noticing that I'm pounding the ground hard too quickly right next to the fence. I have to tractor sooner than I would like. Maybe the circus pole/snubbing post would help that? Might get in the way if I'm starting a colt that bucks though?
@@markmahnken6409 I forgot about the tie off video, Ill have to get after that. Starting a bucker with the pole is a little sketchy but you get used to it
Yesterday I saddled up my 2yo Colt, put the bit in and tied the reigns up until he broke at the poll. Put him in the round pen and watched his feet. He was short by 6" at a walk, got in the front hoof imprint most of the time at a trot. At a pretty good lope he was past the impression of the front by 6" or so. Interesting.
Yessir. Stuck with me because it was true to life for me. Grandad could get a knife sharp enough to shave with a few licks on an Arkansas stone. Evidently that skill ain't hereditary @@HorsemanshipAsAnArt
I take one to a round pen tame or wild it's body control and we work on it tell I can put any peace of it's body where I want it. If it's a mustang that's usually before I ever halter. It will lead just need to learn to come if pressure. When I say everything I mean everything. Yeald everything hindquarters shoulders ribs
Alright, I give up! I’m not smart enough or eagle eyes enough to see how exactly you accomplish this. I’ve gone back over the videos you’ve put on here and I can not see what exactly you do to get a horse building collection in the round pen. I’ve been attempting to make a bridle horse and never have really worried about head set, I figured it would come as a byproduct of true collection. So how do you move them around to get them gaining this?!?!?
@@HorsemanshipAsAnArt I sure hope so! I just got your book yesterday and I am amazed! I only just got through the chapter on the riders body. Just wow! I am amazed at the things I didn’t know I didn’t know. And the explanation of what and why I do things subconsciously. Thank you!
It is a post in the middle of my round pen. Think single pillar in the Dressage world. I am working on a big online clinic that shows how I use it. It is not to be confused with a snubbing post, very different. I learned how to use it from Jim Paul Sr. who learned from Harold Farron who learned from his Dad who learned at the Spanish riding school in Viena
I actually dont agree with that, if you reward the slightest try you only get the slightest try. I understand what he was aiming at and I agree with the sentiment but I think to many people make it a hard and fast rule that bites them later.
@@HorsemanshipAsAnArt I love that you answered. I should've qualified that I was only clarifying what the original quote was. I've studied the work of lots of horsemen. I like that you bring something new or at least a fresh perspective, to the table. I'll be joining your Patreon. Hoping you give feedback on video. Holly from Southern Forests Western Australia
Tropism is the phenomenon that causes the horse to come to you when practicing "join up". Tropism is a fact. Tropism explained how an individual organism responds to stimulus. For instance sun flowers follow the sun. Horses are into pressure animals and when pressured properly they will come to you, sometimes they will come at you. Tropism is a fact but "join up" is just a gimmick that Montey came up with to sell. It's not like people havnt been using the same thing since the beginning of time. As far as over thinking...I dont think I have thought about it enough but the thinking and understanding I have is why my horses operate the way they do.
![PASULOL รามเกียรติ์ ตอนที่ 4 นนทกพบรัก [Ramakien Ep.4: Nonthok in love]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tMUQgmZzf_A/mqdefault.jpg)
I can't speak for everyone else, but I really enjoy these videos. You actually take the time to explain the reasons why you do things. I see a lot of videos about how to fix horse problems that were caused by people not knowing what to do or getting bad advice. I found out really quickly that horses aren't very forgiving. I have had to learn that the hard way because I did the wrong thing or listened to the wrong advice. It is pretty humbling. Once again thank you for sharing your knowledge and your philosophies.
you bet. Glad I can help
Thank you for pointing out what actual collection is.
I’ve lost two clients pretty quickly lately because they each got mad at me concerning the difference between true collection and just a “pretty” headset.
One refused to take off the side reins (which were also too tight in my opinion) on their “English” TB horse who had been given a chance to sit in a stall primarily for a couple years and just needed to be conditioned in my opinion; not put in “a frame,” like the owner kept insisting. I told her to get him out of his stall and start hand walking him 5 miles a day and do a lot of long trotting in as straight of a line as she could, not worrying about where his head was. I didn’t even think he had the physical capability to be balanced with his head in side reins that weren’t too tight, without fatigue and tripping in the arena on a 15’ lunge line. She just laughed and told me she didn’t think she could even walk 5 miles a day, and didn’t care to spend THAT much time with her horse. My last words to her was, why not lease or sell him to someone who actually likes him and wants to put in the time then? We’ll see what she does.
Here in Alaska where I live in and work, many don’t have the luxury of huge pastures to turn horses out on, and even in the fields I ride in, we had 5’ of snow until just this week, so I hand walk all my young horses (even the yearlings) several times a week, and even my riding horses after each ride. According to my phone app, I walk an average of 10 miles a day. Not ideal for my time, but very important I think for the horses.
Do you think working straight is different than working in a smaller circle too? They each have their place? I’m one who tends to believe that a horse has to be also be straight before they can get collection. And flat work walking, and especially long trotting in an open field or in straight lines naturally makes a horse want to stretch down and lift their back as they relax and move out. Much like you all probably get to do when riding out to get a day’s work done? I grew up and have worked in places where we had big places to turn out and to ride straight, and I felt like that is something our horses here miss out on for many reasons. But I digress.
My other student showed up dropping her hands (which caused her shoulders and eyes to drop down too) way down to her knees and seesawing to get the head hyperflexed, which I kept telling her was making him heavy on the front end. It looked to me like he was dragging himself around the arena. He was definitely not tracking up, had no flexion in his hocks and the rider wouldn’t work on transferring the horse’s weight on to his hind end. I’m not sure if it was because she was afraid to let him move freely, if it was something someone else told her to do to get collection (I asked and she said no) or if she just wasn’t wanting to put in the work to get the balance before the headset. The last lesson I had with her, I made her take the spurs off and start working on her leg strength, softer hands and a balanced seat, and she got tired early and left in tears. Her mom texted me later and said she was behind in school work and couldn’t keep riding right now. The next week she was back with a new instructor. Either way, They found someone who supports their ideas maybe. The one young gal came off and hit pretty hard just last night after her horse pitched a major fit as she was angrily spurring him to go forward at the lope and cranking on him to get his “poll flexed.” Her new instructor just laughed. SMH.
Those are two very sad stories and they are happening everywhere everyday.
Hey A Davis, spinal dynamics govern limb dynamics. As such, the how the feet move school of thought is predicted and controlled by the horses spinal posture.. A really good and clear description of this school of thought can be obtained by studying Dr. Deb Bennets work of the last 50 years..
As for overtracking in a dressage horse. It is called an extended trot - and no you are wrong about extension being a product of collection.. Collection with an arched back or spine yields balanced movement at first with EQUAL weight on each of the horses 4 feet. At this stage collection is called self carriage.
No charge for educating you.
best
Bruce Peek
Hey Bruce. I read all four of your comments. One was positive and the other three were snarky. I do truly love constructive feedback but nothing you had to say was constructive. It was mean hearted. I love talking with people that know more than me, and they are many, and I love to read peoples opinions. When one criticizes another in a way that is not constructive it does not make one seem better or smarter, it only shows the reader how small that persons cock is. In the future I would love to read what you have to say about horses and how to ride them. For now I will challenge you to first ride as many as I have and second get a camera ($4000) and build the skill set to stand in front of it and talk about what you know how to do. Once you have that we will talk. I will even fly over to the UK and speak with you over tea about it.
Excellent video! So glad to hear you explain proper collection, which is the same as I was taught. Tired of folks putting all the emphasis on the head and neck and calling it collection. When you are able, please show a roundpen session using the circus pole.
I am working on a series of circus pole videos
"Reward the slightest try."
And that is what you will get, the slightest try
Good evening
Hum I have watched horses feet all my life and did not realize everything I was seeing until just now with this video. Thanks
When I did round pen work ten years ago on my mature Reiner, I did it for the following reasons or goals:
A) to expend some of his excess energy
B) to get the horse to respect me as his leader
C) to maintain his skills and maneuvers and
D) to maintain my training skills and maneuvers.
I really did not do much chasing, unless he was not listening or was testing me to see if he could do whatever he wanted. I would just stand there in the middle of the ring with a lunge whip in case he slowed down, changed gait, turned directions disrespectfully with his tail toward me, or stopped working by himself, without me asking him. (I did round pen work two ways-with a long lead rope attached or without a lead rope & using only a lunge whip and my body language.)
But I never thought about improving his collection & balance. Perhaps that was because he was a mature reining push-button horse. He was really good in the arena but had issues with spooking out on the trail. I tried desensitizing techniques but they were not all that effective.
I appreciate your insight and the time you’ve taken to explain this on video. Your expertise is quite valuable to us amateurs.
Thank you! and thank you for speaking for the amateurs. I find so many people get weird about that word. It does not mean you are not experienced, it means you dont get paid for it. I am pleased you like the work, I hope we can keep pleasing
Wowza. That's one of best thing I've heard in years. Thanks for that!
Im glad you enjoyed it
I’ve been around a circus pole !!
Never was realy showed much about it!!!
You got any videos on using one correctly
There is a whole series on Patreon
I was reading last night in your chapter on tropism. What a mind opener. I reread the chapter a second time . Thanks Brett.
glad you liked it. I like that you liked it
It was something I knew about for a long time but it blew my mind when I started researching
Great stuff & much appreciate fireside chats! You mentioned in book like Mike Bridges, hind foot should move first - I haven't understood that in my research if someday you could help explain. Thanks.
Ill get on it
Thank you for taking the time to do this video,as always thought provoking. Would you happen to have a video of you using your "circus pole"? Thank you!
Im working on a series of them for everyone
😅" Just skip the high points and gettta training!"
that is great advise lol
Thank you
Thank you
Nice Molina Campos you have there
Good eye. I love Campos. In Argentina they are everywhere, they are hard to find here
Forgive my ignorance with this question. I have started getting into the world of "gaited" horses like the Tennessee walker etc. Does the topic of the hind foot landing in the track of the front foot apply to them horses who flat walk and whatnot? My gut says yes but idk so I had to ask. Thanks
Kinda depends. A horse is a horse so in order to be balanced and collected yes it still applies. However gaited horse shows are looking for specific movement and I dont know much about gaited horse shows. I would think the TW that lift there legs so high would not be able to
@@HorsemanshipAsAnArt Gotcha. Thanks!
Tennessee walkers are supposed to overreach naturally with back feet. Their hind feet tracks should be past the front tracks. They also nod their heads every step. The natural head carriage is lower than show horses, but higher than QH. They're also supposed to canter, not just do their gait. Teach the cue just like you would to a QH.
The natural TWH is a beautiful thing, show world is ridiculously unnatural.
For trail horses, cut that toe and shoe them with regular shoes. No need for long toes to trip over or high knee action.
I've also found a lot of gaited horses do better in round skirt saddles even if their back looks long. You can get hip rubs with long pads and saddles. Definitely built different lol.
@@tracyjohnson5023 now I know, thanks
It's "reward the smallest try". I can get a horse almost broke (handle) in a round pen. So many things can be accomplished in the round pen that so few people realize. Only a few things can't be taught like the run down, flying lead changes and traveling in a straight line for example. My students think they are ready to leave the round pen in a couple of weeks. I tell them I'm still using and riding in it after 47 years and they aren't even close, they look at me like I'm nuts like they should be leaving the kiddy mary go round. Most people lack the patience to really learn how to use one correctly. Almost all horses that come to me fly around like a bat out of hell when put in a round pen at first just like you were mentioning. I will look for foot placement next time I round pen. Question - what is a circus pole?
A circus pole is a snubbing post
We must do a circus pole video
@@HorsemanshipAsAnArtAlmost sounds kinky, not sure my wife would approve but hay let's go for it. Yes that would be helpful along with the video you told me you would do about the temporary tying at the horn for doctoring cattle. I typically free lunge my horses but am noticing that I'm pounding the ground hard too quickly right next to the fence. I have to tractor sooner than I would like. Maybe the circus pole/snubbing post would help that? Might get in the way if I'm starting a colt that bucks though?
@@markmahnken6409 I forgot about the tie off video, Ill have to get after that. Starting a bucker with the pole is a little sketchy but you get used to it
@@hezekiahwhiteman1784 not really, its a single pillar. A snubbing post is way taller
or she coulda been bullshittin
could have been
Yesterday I saddled up my 2yo Colt, put the bit in and tied the reigns up until he broke at the poll. Put him in the round pen and watched his feet. He was short by 6" at a walk, got in the front hoof imprint most of the time at a trot. At a pretty good lope he was past the impression of the front by 6" or so. Interesting.
cool
A lot of people give horses something to run from. Few give them something to move WITH.
well said
The title should be, "So you THINK you know how to use a Round Horse Pen"
I thought this was about round ink pens. LOL!
Well...I guess I see your point, I can't be everything to everyone
But I never could sharpen no knife, like the one who gave the advice...
Glad you know that
Yessir. Stuck with me because it was true to life for me. Grandad could get a knife sharp enough to shave with a few licks on an Arkansas stone. Evidently that skill ain't hereditary
@@HorsemanshipAsAnArt
Same. I can wear a stone and a blade out and its still dull as a froe@@danwall697
I take one to a round pen tame or wild it's body control and we work on it tell I can put any peace of it's body where I want it. If it's a mustang that's usually before I ever halter. It will lead just need to learn to come if pressure. When I say everything I mean everything. Yeald everything hindquarters shoulders ribs
Sweet
Alright, I give up! I’m not smart enough or eagle eyes enough to see how exactly you accomplish this. I’ve gone back over the videos you’ve put on here and I can not see what exactly you do to get a horse building collection in the round pen. I’ve been attempting to make a bridle horse and never have really worried about head set, I figured it would come as a byproduct of true collection. So how do you move them around to get them gaining this?!?!?
I am working on an online clinic that hopefully will help a bunch, should be compleat in coming months. Lets hope
@@HorsemanshipAsAnArt I sure hope so! I just got your book yesterday and I am amazed! I only just got through the chapter on the riders body. Just wow! I am amazed at the things I didn’t know I didn’t know. And the explanation of what and why I do things subconsciously. Thank you!
@@alexanderyeates935 Im sure glad to hear you like it
Are Humans capable of observing horses honestly and attentively ☹️
why not?
Bret What is your “circus pole” you answer here or hit me up on FB
It is a post in the middle of my round pen. Think single pillar in the Dressage world. I am working on a big online clinic that shows how I use it. It is not to be confused with a snubbing post, very different. I learned how to use it from Jim Paul Sr. who learned from Harold Farron who learned from his Dad who learned at the Spanish riding school in Viena
@@HorsemanshipAsAnArt oh ok. I think I saw it in your one video.
@@karstenrenaerts987 probably
Reward the slightest try
I actually dont agree with that, if you reward the slightest try you only get the slightest try. I understand what he was aiming at and I agree with the sentiment but I think to many people make it a hard and fast rule that bites them later.
@@HorsemanshipAsAnArt I love that you answered. I should've qualified that I was only clarifying what the original quote was. I've studied the work of lots of horsemen. I like that you bring something new or at least a fresh perspective, to the table. I'll be joining your Patreon. Hoping you give feedback on video. Holly from Southern Forests Western Australia
Thank you for clearing that up, I appreciate it. My brother lived in Australia for a while and loved the country.@@southernforestgypsy
Join up is not a theory,it’s a fact,your overthinking the whole thing dude
Tropism is the phenomenon that causes the horse to come to you when practicing "join up". Tropism is a fact. Tropism explained how an individual organism responds to stimulus. For instance sun flowers follow the sun. Horses are into pressure animals and when pressured properly they will come to you, sometimes they will come at you. Tropism is a fact but "join up" is just a gimmick that Montey came up with to sell. It's not like people havnt been using the same thing since the beginning of time. As far as over thinking...I dont think I have thought about it enough but the thinking and understanding I have is why my horses operate the way they do.