Historical Naval Wargaming Kit Demo (US Naval War College Museum)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ต.ค. 2019
- Museum curator, Rob Doane, gives a demonstration of a historical naval wargaming kit used by the US Navy in the late 20th century. Though similar looking to a modern strategy game, it was actually issued by the US Naval War College for officers to practice their command, control, and decision making skills whilst off campus out on the fleet. As you can see the kit includes a map, us navy ship miniatures, dice, rules, reference charts.
The US Naval War College has historically made great use of naval wargaming as a part of their curriculum from just after the US Civil War through to the World War and even today in the modern era. In another video I showcased their historical wargaming facilities.
#History
#Wargaming
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I really loved this demo which does a good job of showing how naval wargaming is conducted. As a D&D player it's too funny to see all the similarities with the d20, the game master, the combat tables, and the battle matte. Anyways, hope you enjoyed and stay tuned for more!
If you think about it, a DnD-style pen-and-paper game makes the most sense as a wargame, since it allows a lot more flexibility than a standard wargame. It's fairly brilliant.
@@PitterPatter20 Indeed! Though with the resources of these wargames they apparently had entire support staffs for number crunching. Would love to have that as a DM.
The creators of DnD played wargames but wanted something similar on the individual level. Thus over the years they built Dungeons and Dragons.
@@InvictaHistory wargaming on land, could that also available?
@@aruthorcarly they did this one, plus a podcast about it that's also posted on the TH-cam channel:
th-cam.com/video/-seIA9tukDs/w-d-xo.html
In the Grim Dark of the Naval War College, there is only gaming.
@@ryankerper3289 By the Admiral
I don't wanna pray to a cruiser now
@@Hammadz-li thats heresy
@@carso1500 says to emperor?lol the first thing i probably will do after leaving wheel chare is burn the inquisition to ground
@@Hammadz-li yeah man i feel you, that entire universe needs to burn to the ground, but it's fun
I served 2 years at the Naval War College and many more at the 2nd and 6th fleets working in Theater ASW. I conducted many games like this. I had a travel kit similar to this we would train personnel with.
That's awesome! Cool to hear about all this behind the scenes wargaming
"I fire my main gun at the dreadnaught!"
- Give me an attack roll with your STR modifier.
"NAT 20!!!! Critical hit baby!"
yep! love it! so navy commanders are basically nerds in disguise.
"Alright, that's 2d8 doubled to the dreadnaught's munitions deck +5, and a percentage die roll less than or equal to 30 for secondary fire spread."
I wonder if they've thought of remastering these kits and re-releasing them to the public for sale...
Yes please
Have you ever heard of the game Harpoon? Check it out it’s a great game and very in depth. I believe it was used at the naval college but of course I’m sure the stats that we get aren’t quite the same for craft and weapon systems.
It's called Tabletop Miniature Wargaming.
Jane's fleet command
@@vaele723 what games tho? Like which rule set
Wow, this was a real treat to see up close. Thank you for the behind-the-scenes look at an incredible piece of wargaming history!
Glad you enjoyed it. Great channel by the way, loved watching your Teebia battle. If you guys want I can put you in touch with the museum and war college.
Umpire: "Ok. You received a distress signal from a civilian freighter that has struck a mine in neutral waters......."
This game needs to be conducted at PAX.. Or any other gaming convention.
It would be very interesting to see this kind of game played just as it was intended... teams in different rooms and all.
I actually did play a Kriegsspiel game since you made that video about it. Now I also want to play this Naval adapted Kriegsspiel
I want this! I *need* this! *_Give me this, nao!!!_*
So happy I found this channel. So very, very happy.
Wargamevault has a lot of different naval rule sets. Maybe you can find a similar one on there. You gotta make or get your auxiliary items for a lot of miniature wargames though.
A reserve officer, Larry Bond, developed his version of this, Harpoon, using open sources such as Jane's books (originally compiled to support Jane's game) for his data. Wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpoon_(video_game)) says that Bond's active duty exposure to SEATAG, a manual game available from the Navy, led him to developing Harpoon, though other sources say that he had developed Harpoon for his fellow reserve officers so maybe they couldn't get SEATAG. Harpoon was a pencil-and-paper miniatures game until a computer version came out in 1989. Part of the lore is that an insurance salesman, Tom Clancy, discovered the game and used it to work out the battles in "Hunt for Red October" and in "Red Storm Rising" which he co-authored with Larry Bond.
I once tried to run the manual game's first scenario with a friend. A simple 20-minute engagement between a destroyer and three missile boats. Using graph paper to plot movement and determine range, rulers, log sheets, it took us two hours just to get through the first 10 minutes.
The guy who presented this did a great job and seems very knowledgeable. Cool stuff.
G-9.
He sunk my battleship!
Much better audio in this one, thank you!
If only CA didn't abandon naval battles, TW could've have even been a naval wargame. Welp there is always Wargame: Red Dragon although I hope they add naval warfare to Steel Division 2.
Qiaho Liu I have Rome TW and naval battles are so annoying bc there is no strategy, it’s all simulated.
@@akshatthakur6167 y TW naval battles are far from realistic, i always blamed it on the fact that the maps are way to small for proper naval battles.
@@greenfox3010 napoleon wasn't that bad, I mean, yeah it was a bit bugged, awkward and chaotic, but wasn't bad
@@AJTHAxx I really enjoyed it
@@akshatthakur6167 There were no naval battles in RTW -- and yes , naval battles prior to gunpowder was chaotic but there was still strategy. And wargames are simulations so I don't know what you mean.
Let's see a game!!!
I love this video, didn't know naval training was basically tabletop gaming.
Sidenote: Is it me, or is the video slithly out of sync?
The audio may be a hair off since I had to align two different devices for audio and video.
The majority of high level command training, think majors and above, battalion command and above, and practical command and control exercises are mostly wargaming.
The work of officers and staff officiers in the field is also mostly calculations and paper work.
I remember reading about a military history professor teaching at military academy experience of incorporating strategic level wargaming into the curriculum; the result was astounding. He pointed out that once you force students into trying to solve a strategic problem with the historical ends, ways, and mean, suddenly what we found to be stupid and disastrous decisions made perfect sense. His examples were failed ancient Athenians invasion of Sicily (idle historians would said: it's a bad idea. 70% of wargamers invaded Sicily in that scenario to secure a food supply for the war). The American Civil war was decided on the wargaming table and real life, in the West (supplies, again). People who wargamed the seminal tragedy that led to WWI walked out shaking their heads: they did exactly what the German, Russian, French, British, and Austrian heads of states were doing.
@@InvictaHistory That's what clapboards are for. Or you can just clap your hands in front of the camera.
I cut my teeth on a game called sea power with naval miniatures. Then panzerschiffe, Fletcher Pratt, General quarters and harpoon. This video was very informative and extremely interesting to watch. Training our officers to use critical thinking Is an important tool. It is no wonder we had the greatest Navy in the world.
This is super cool, that guys a great presenter as well!
I want to see this played with the modern set up
I'm super intrigued by this! 😨
Loving the content far.
I just discovered these videos about wargaming and i loved them!!
Sounds really cool.
Great video!
awesome presentation, incredible system
When you roll a natural one on your missile launch, does it turn around and hit you?
Blows up in the missile silo
"Your weapons officer slips on lands on his ass, and as he goes down, he accidentally hits the launch command for a missile currently in a closed silo. Your missile silos take 2d10 explosive damage."
For those who may be interested, TH-camr Lindybeige has a video about the Royal Navy’s use of wargaming in WW2 called “The wargamers who won a real war”: th-cam.com/video/fVet82IUAqQ/w-d-xo.html
He also visits a museum (under construction at the time) on the site where the wargaming was conducted: th-cam.com/video/lVWw628Mkac/w-d-xo.html
Great Video Rob! Bravo Zulu
"a 20-sided die if you can believe it" .....yeah. yeah I can curator.
1963.....
And now I miss Harpoon.
Avalon Hill had a WWII naval game called Flat Top that would have benefitted from the umpire system described here. In the game, in order to fly search patterns or use a destroyer or submarine for surveillance you had to tell your opponent where it was you were looking.
dang I'd love to play a huge multi room battle with fog of war! :D
Thanks for the vid!
Will you give a tour of Sims Hall, the old computer gaming center? The history of the building is amazing. The swimming pool converted into the game room is incredible. I got to tour it in the dark as we were surveying it for temporary office space during renovations a decade ago.
Wow did you see the thickness on that rule book?! Would you say that's a quarter inch or a half inch??? Real facts like that are why I click on these videos!
Very interesting.
I really want to play a game like this at least once.
Is there online copies? Buyable copies? I would love this so much.
Get a copy of Fletcher Pratt's naval game. I'm sure this game drew heavily on Pratt's, although there will be differences in detail, of course. Or, if you want something simpler, get a used copy of Avalon Hill's _Jutland._
@@michaelsommers2356 thanks a bunches good internet goer.
HYPE
This is Battleships on steroids.
Круто!
Oh Boy, Navy D&D
Would they ever release this kit to the public as a table top game, or is it considered a national security secret?
they have done that in the past. just watch the first video. there they even mentioned it.
This was really interesting!! But again, please ask more questions if you ever get to do this again.
Board gaming on steroids!
Make a video about growing up in China/Japan!
When is Alt Caesar part 2 coming?
I've been asking that for weeks now. He gave some excuse that he has been busy. You know like making vids on glorifying tax funded navy board games
Harpoon still the best naval wargame ever made
I'm wondering if the US Naval War College Museum has a copy of Fred Jane's naval war game from approximately 1905; the rules were in the Jane's Fighting Ships of that year. That would make a fascinating video. The game used small models of actual ships, with movement characteristics (such as the ship's turning radius) indicated on them. Ranges and distances were determined by scale measurement of the gaming area (which must have been pretty large). And the fall of shot--well, I still haven't figured out from the rules how that was done, (it sounds like a by-hand strike at a paper target, something almost as random as actual shellfire might have been expected to be) and I would like to see it demonstrated.
Unfortunately we do not. If you have a copy to donate, please let me know ;-)
_"... it sounds like a by-hand strike at a paper target, ..."_
That's basically how the artillery in H.G. Wells' _Little Wars_ (1913) worked: You used toy cannon that fired actual projectiles, which knocked over the enemy's toy soldiers.
Are they like protractors, or are they real protractors, O' Great Communicator of Naval Knowledge?
Just me or audio goes out of sync after 11:00?
Game set incomplete, no tsar bomba
Don't worry, I think they're adding it as DLC.
@@TheChappa paradox interactive style
But is it something we can buy? Or at the very least buy something as close to it as possible? Would love to break down the mechanical nature of it.
There are numerous naval wargames available for purchase, and the commercially available ones are often more detailed. Depending on what era you wish to wargame, there are different titles. 'Harpoon' is a fairly current/modern one, recently released in a Fifth edition. Similar rules set with 'Command At Sea' for WW2. I quite like 'General Quarters 3' from Old Dominion Gameworks for WW2 as it's a good balance of usability and simulation, plus a lot of extra detail & variety that can be optionally added. There are numerous others for various wars and eras.
You'll generally need to get miniatures or card flats for the ships separately from various possible places but the buy-in isn't as expensive as some other tabletop wargames can be since there is little to no terrain required for naval battles. Just the rules, a few ships, tape measure, and printing whatever ship forms and turn template that comes with the game rules (or protractor if specified instead). Definitely recommend getting the rules in physical format, or printing them off, for easier referencing at the table.
Out of curiosity, did the US Navy utilize Wargaming, as the Germans did in WW1 or the Franko Prussian War, in WW2?
Oh yes. The US army and navy both. The army called them "map exercises" because they thought that "war game" might sound a little frivolous to the taxpayers. Not sure what the navy called their equivalent.
@@sotros1 I remember the MAPEX's from my time in the CAV, but wasn't sure if they were used in conjunction with ongoing military operations as the Germans did in France.
Yes of course. USNWC had some fairly advanced games, and Fred Janes game comes to mind.
@@schlirf Interesting. TDY. I didn't know that the Germans used their system operationally.
I do recall that a running German war game became useful during the American attacks towards the Huertgen forest, in November '44. The exercise happened to be simulating pretty much what the Americans actually were doing, and the results of the game, continually fed back to the commanders on the ground, were said to have greatly improved German decision making and shortened reaction time. My impression has been that this degree of utility was somewhat unexpected. But there's no reason the Germans couldn't have used their system in other situations, given the right conditions. Do you know of any others?
As to an equivalent American use of their own system, I just don't know. There were sand-table dioramas, sculpted in clay, which were intended to familiarize amphibious assult forces with the appearance of the coastline they were attacking, but I don't think there was any simulation involved. And, since the Western Allies were mostly on the strategic offensive, they may not have had the time or opportunity to set up a "game board" for a particular zone they intended to attack.
The British also used wargaming to help with in real time decision making in the Atlantic during ww2.
Why don't they throw dice? I learnt this from the board game "Risk"!
Too bad Wargaming and World of Warships did not sponsor this video. They missed a golden opportunity.
What was the prize for a win?
Anyone else notice that, although he says that the d20 has 1-10 doubled on it, the d20 he actually shows is a standard 1-20 version?
I'm wondering if he's got the wrong information or if someone swapped the original d20 with a regular version.
Good catch, that was a mistake on my part. Some of the d20s in our collection do have 1-10 printed twice while others have 1-20. I'm not aware that the Navy tried to standardize the dice for these kits - they probably just bought whatever was available at the time. At any rate, I obviously didn't notice that I had grabbed the wrong one when we shot this segment.
I noticed that as well. I thought it was odd to see a 'modern' d20 rather than an icosahedral d10 in a set from the 60's. This article from Zenopus would seem to imply that true 1-20 numbered dice didn't appear in the D&D world until the early 80's. zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2017/04/marked-20-sided-die.html
Wonder if someone like Jon Peterson might have some more detailed information on how that evolution occurred
Is there anywhere I can buy a kit??
if you are seriously invested in military history you are really doing yourself a disservice if you do not visit the us military museum at west point as well as the grounds of west point themselves. It will really give you some insight on some of the great land battles and the strategies used in them.
I am disappointed that the map isn't subdivided into hexagons.
The grid was there to give the coordinates of the ships, not to regulate movement. Movement was analog: if your ship was going 16 knots at 23 degrees, you moved 2.5 inches in that direction (or whatever the scale was).
So it's water Kriegsspiel
13th
video is too bland - should have loads of mini ships on the tables etc - otherwise its just techno
Looks very boring. Need some colour and some hardcore action.