sometimes restrictions can be really dumb, other times its a necessary evil, but those are just my thoughts on the matter :> come join my discord so we can talk more about this predicament discord.gg/KRtUFgApaJ then follow my twt pls i post when i'm alive twitter.com/JuiceChanYT btw follow my twitch www.twitch.tv/juicechanyt also, support me if you'd like; ko-fi.com/juicechanyt
Shenhe is example of exclusive support not offering enough to balance restrictions, Cryo was powerful but her physical buff was relatively low and most forgot she can actually support Eula and of course her banner being delayed for so long didn’t allow her to enjoy her prime
the only time i'm against it is when they release a character with restrictions in their kit only to take those restrictions away with constellations,thank god this doesn't happen that often
I'm actually quite fine with those RESTRICTIVENESS cause it reduced the headached about how to build them correctly like just give them what they needed and you're good to go just as long as they can attack most of enemies and that's fine cause my Eula is actually quite versatile like she can beat up almost all kind of enemies
yeah, go Eula! I pulled her out for the first time in a year recently and I missed using her so bad. I wish I had better artifacts, but I'm sure they'll release new artifact set later :/
I like the Faruzans, Shenhe, and Gorous. What i dont like is Hoyo choosing to drop them, then forget about them. After the initial release of these units, none of the limited dps units can use them properly. Navia doesn't scale with defence and wants rainbow teams. Chasca wants rainbow. Wrio is a melt dps. As a result, the niche units and the 1/2 units they work well with can't maintain relevance. With no future potential the banners dont perform well. Nah dah you released a niche support. Then didn't plan to throw a bone to the people that wished on that support. Hoyo could either remove the restrictions on these or just realease Anemo dps, Cryo dps and Geo dps that don't have conflicting kits with the rest of the cast. Really crossing my fingers that Citali has some synergy with existing cryo. I imagine it's even more frustrating for those low spenders who went for the c6 four stars (harder to acquire than a limited 5 star). Imagine not c6'ing Faru then holding out for Chasca because she's an anemo DPS. Nope. Must be incredibly frustrating. Also a hint, with smart AI manipulation going for an off field cryo dps like Ganyu or Rosaria is better than freeze this abyss for Ayaka teams. You should be able to clear first side of chamber one and two in plenty of time. Two - Three Ayaka rotations, leaving plenty of time for the second half. Also the beasts telegraph their combos so it's not too difficult to last till chamber 3 without a sustain.
I like those niche characters. I can see different faces in different teams so I dont get bored easily. Nilou/Kaveh, Chevreuse, etc. And soon Ororon as well.
You should do a video of "Units you can beat spiral abyss with" Just beat it comfortably ignoring their "Meta" placements basically Units that don't harm your chance of beating spiral abyss by using them how many do you think are in the "good" side amd how many on the "bad" side of course with cracked artifacts you can beat anything, but lets give it like a 130% crit dmg 60% crit rate cap or something i think most players can get that (90% of my units are like that give or take)
Also, the main problem with niche characters in Genshin is that the cost is the same as the versatile unit or even higher. Both pulling and building them. And these costs are VERY high. A C6 four star takes years of wait for reruns and good luck to obtain. And even a support costs you a months' worth of resin to build.
I think using the word 'restrictive' is poisoning the well on discussing units in the first place. They're specialised. Sure you can interpret that as restrictive but it's misleadingly pessimistic in my opinion.
I agree that certain characters do have their niches and in that sense it's their speciality rather than restriction. I also think that wether that niche is worth it in the present day is a good enough justification to determine if it's either a speciality or restriction.
Looking at it from a game balance perspective, i think they made a mistake with some of the early game units. Some 1.x 4-stars are extremely powerful, and set an expectation for 4-stars that they've been struggling to manage back to something reasonable ever since.
I like the existence of niche/restrictive units, because it lets Hoyo make characters "good enough" without requiring massive power creep (plus new archetypes that don't get dominated by broken generalist supports). It's nice that most of them are 4-stars too, just wish there was a better way to get 4-star chars/cons.
Honestly I think this is a case by case basis. Chevreuse might work in vape teams, especially as a Furina healer but her passives & cons are so biased to overload that it feels like a waste of potential for anything else.
The problem is when a niche unit is worse at its niche than a generic unit, or not better enough to justify taking the restricted one over the generic one. At the same time, they don't want to make characters that are too strong in their niche. I think the right way to go is to make 4* characters restricted, like Chevreuse, but with a power close to 5* when their restrictions are met.
Chevreuse is not completely restricted. Healing, attack buff and C6 is not restricted. This is better than many other characters have to offer in total.
I'm a huge fan of Chevreuse and I'd be really in favour of more options like her, 4 stars that open up a really particular reaction mechanic. My poor Shenhe on the other hand.... I just hope she becomes useful at some point, she was the character who convinced me to play the game, and I haven't used her at all in ages.
Short answer,it IS. Like it literally limits a character's potential and team flexibility so much and it gets annoying asf the more hoyo does it. ESPECIALLY if you love the character and your f2p and can't pull for the character bc it'll literally feel like a waste of my primogems/wishes.
Specialized units are fine, I just wish they were more available. But Hoyo is a business and they are making their money the best way they can. But come on, triple banners or have a banner for older characters that's available all the time. Good discussion, Juice! And it's fine that I'm one of the few with my wife, Shenhe, in my roster. She's a rare baddie.
Obviously yes. When one of the endgame modes limits your access to random elements and forces using characters in a random order, and the other endgame mode requires doing 3 battles in a row with the same team all 3 of which usually has different specific checks for weapon types, elements, mechanics, etc then absolutely. Look at current side 2 in Abyss, first boss wants a plunge team as it forcefully converts my jump cancels into time wasting high jumps, second one requires a bow and the third one has Hydro immunity and a bloated hp pool that assumes you're vaping or electrocharging all your hits. Good luck building a team that can fulfill all 3 of those conditions using niche units like Gorou and Shenhe. Oh almost forgot the first and third boss hits very hard too so your solution better includes a top tier healer in addition to all the rest, these are the kinds of battles where bringing someone like Kuki instead of Baizhu just makes me die. Also I learned it the hard way, the first boss resists Geo so Geo units are out, too. Ororon will also be dead in any Electro IT seasons when the other two elements do not include hyro which is 66% of the time. Chevreuse, same deal, she is just a bad healer if it's an Electroless Pyro seasons.
My counter point is that you should just use Ororon as a sacrificial pawn in a small act so you can save energy from your better units. You can make any team comp work in those rounds.
Lol. Arlecchino, Fischl, Xiangling, Chevreuse and the other half are just a joke. And no, you don't have to play through jumping on 12-2-2. Let me remind you, Chevreuse is also a niche character. Your complaint makes no sense. It's not the fault of niche characters that you can't put together an adequate team, it's your problem. And why are you bringing Shenhe as an example and offering her in the second half to the hydrotulpa, when the cryo element does not have unfairly broken buffs due to other elements? However, even so, Shenhe will be useful on the hydrotulpa, and what can your universal Kazuha do? Against the hydrotulpa and manifestation, he is just trash that takes up space and can do absolutely nothing.
Going to ask since I’m not going to pull for either characters this banner but going for weapon to buff my childe. For international, would Chasca or Lyney’s signature be better for Childe. I have accepted that I will probably never get polar star because people hate childe’s playstyle but asking so I won’t invest. I know lyney’s bow is pretty good and I don’t care all too much for Crit weapons because I managed to get 58/205
I personally believe that restrictiveness helps the characters not get too overpowered. If a unit is restrictive, they must be very good on the role they have. If they provide decent buffs they usually need to be versatile. If these conditions do not meet their corresponding placements, then a unit is either cracked or weak.
Juice making an 11 minute video reiterating the point of niches. Which is not really an argued thing. Who is saying niche = bad. Its niche for a reason... Word choice is important.
not necessarily i wouldn’t call neuvillette or lyney ‘niche’ because of a restriction they have in their kit which isn’t even the best way to play them, niche is a more compact term compared to restrictions which are wider
I agree. This video feels lazy, and it's referencing an argument that doesn't exist. Do people really think restrictiveness is bad? No, not really at all. It's just an easy way to get a video out by creating a discussion from a self-declared, fabricated opinion. I agree with some of what's said, but the approach to the video is dishonest.
I'm saying niche = bad, but only in Genshin. It's fine in other games, but in Genshin the endgame modes are designed in a way that makes niche units bad or unusable. The IT mode doesn't allow 4 of the 7 elements so someone like Chevreuse can't use her kit 70% of the time. Abyss forces 3 battles in a row so even if two of them are easy with an overload team, if the third chamber requires Anemo or Geo then the team is unusable for it anyway unless you're willing to waste your time doing additional runs for each chamber. Also niche units should cost less to obtain and build as they do less, but they cost the same or in case of C6 4 star supports, more than the average unit.
sometimes restrictions can be really dumb, other times its a necessary evil, but those are just my thoughts on the matter :>
come join my discord so we can talk more about this predicament discord.gg/KRtUFgApaJ
then follow my twt pls i post when i'm alive twitter.com/JuiceChanYT
btw follow my twitch www.twitch.tv/juicechanyt
also, support me if you'd like; ko-fi.com/juicechanyt
Shenhe is example of exclusive support not offering enough to balance restrictions, Cryo was powerful but her physical buff was relatively low and most forgot she can actually support Eula and of course her banner being delayed for so long didn’t allow her to enjoy her prime
Restriveness wouldn´t be a big factor for me, if availability was given. Hoyo has to change their Banner System.
it’s definitely outdated considering all the units we have right now
even a 3 banner setup could be a great advancement!
the only time i'm against it is when they release a character with restrictions in their kit only to take those restrictions away with constellations,thank god this doesn't happen that often
chiori & hu-tao 😭
I'm actually quite fine with those RESTRICTIVENESS cause it reduced the headached about how to build them correctly like just give them what they needed and you're good to go
just as long as they can attack most of enemies and that's fine cause my Eula is actually quite versatile like she can beat up almost all kind of enemies
yeah, go Eula! I pulled her out for the first time in a year recently and I missed using her so bad. I wish I had better artifacts, but I'm sure they'll release new artifact set later :/
If you like the character's design, personality, play style, you should just go ahead and pull for them regardless of their restrictiveness.
I like the Faruzans, Shenhe, and Gorous. What i dont like is Hoyo choosing to drop them, then forget about them. After the initial release of these units, none of the limited dps units can use them properly. Navia doesn't scale with defence and wants rainbow teams. Chasca wants rainbow. Wrio is a melt dps. As a result, the niche units and the 1/2 units they work well with can't maintain relevance. With no future potential the banners dont perform well. Nah dah you released a niche support. Then didn't plan to throw a bone to the people that wished on that support. Hoyo could either remove the restrictions on these or just realease Anemo dps, Cryo dps and Geo dps that don't have conflicting kits with the rest of the cast. Really crossing my fingers that Citali has some synergy with existing cryo. I imagine it's even more frustrating for those low spenders who went for the c6 four stars (harder to acquire than a limited 5 star). Imagine not c6'ing Faru then holding out for Chasca because she's an anemo DPS. Nope. Must be incredibly frustrating. Also a hint, with smart AI manipulation going for an off field cryo dps like Ganyu or Rosaria is better than freeze this abyss for Ayaka teams. You should be able to clear first side of chamber one and two in plenty of time. Two - Three Ayaka rotations, leaving plenty of time for the second half. Also the beasts telegraph their combos so it's not too difficult to last till chamber 3 without a sustain.
I like those niche characters. I can see different faces in different teams so I dont get bored easily. Nilou/Kaveh, Chevreuse, etc. And soon Ororon as well.
You should do a video of "Units you can beat spiral abyss with"
Just beat it comfortably ignoring their "Meta" placements
basically Units that don't harm your chance of beating spiral abyss by using them
how many do you think are in the "good" side amd how many on the "bad" side
of course with cracked artifacts you can beat anything, but lets give it like a 130% crit dmg 60% crit rate cap or something i think most players can get that (90% of my units are like that give or take)
I agree with most of what you said apart from game balance. The Natlan artifact set exists.
Also, the main problem with niche characters in Genshin is that the cost is the same as the versatile unit or even higher. Both pulling and building them. And these costs are VERY high. A C6 four star takes years of wait for reruns and good luck to obtain. And even a support costs you a months' worth of resin to build.
I think using the word 'restrictive' is poisoning the well on discussing units in the first place. They're specialised. Sure you can interpret that as restrictive but it's misleadingly pessimistic in my opinion.
I agree that certain characters do have their niches and in that sense it's their speciality rather than restriction. I also think that wether that niche is worth it in the present day is a good enough justification to determine if it's either a speciality or restriction.
Being niche is not bad but being too niche, for example having a single team, makes a unit less valuable
Looking at it from a game balance perspective, i think they made a mistake with some of the early game units. Some 1.x 4-stars are extremely powerful, and set an expectation for 4-stars that they've been struggling to manage back to something reasonable ever since.
I like the existence of niche/restrictive units, because it lets Hoyo make characters "good enough" without requiring massive power creep (plus new archetypes that don't get dominated by broken generalist supports). It's nice that most of them are 4-stars too, just wish there was a better way to get 4-star chars/cons.
Shenhe is usuable in eula teams aswell scince her burst debuffs enemies phys res so shes technically not cryo only as you said
Honestly I think this is a case by case basis. Chevreuse might work in vape teams, especially as a Furina healer but her passives & cons are so biased to overload that it feels like a waste of potential for anything else.
2:33 Electro-charged is also getting a reaction buff
The problem is when a niche unit is worse at its niche than a generic unit, or not better enough to justify taking the restricted one over the generic one. At the same time, they don't want to make characters that are too strong in their niche. I think the right way to go is to make 4* characters restricted, like Chevreuse, but with a power close to 5* when their restrictions are met.
Chevreuse is not completely restricted. Healing, attack buff and C6 is not restricted. This is better than many other characters have to offer in total.
I'm a huge fan of Chevreuse and I'd be really in favour of more options like her, 4 stars that open up a really particular reaction mechanic.
My poor Shenhe on the other hand....
I just hope she becomes useful at some point, she was the character who convinced me to play the game, and I haven't used her at all in ages.
Shenhe Iis my favorite unit. Love imagining what future teams she could work in. Will c6 when (if ever) she reruns.
Short answer,it IS. Like it literally limits a character's potential and team flexibility so much and it gets annoying asf the more hoyo does it. ESPECIALLY if you love the character and your f2p and can't pull for the character bc it'll literally feel like a waste of my primogems/wishes.
Specialized units are fine, I just wish they were more available. But Hoyo is a business and they are making their money the best way they can. But come on, triple banners or have a banner for older characters that's available all the time.
Good discussion, Juice! And it's fine that I'm one of the few with my wife, Shenhe, in my roster. She's a rare baddie.
I just wanna mention that if it's shenhe and the fact that she's cryo is pretty bad
true but then you have goats like chevreuse
Imagine c6 Shenhe if she was hydro on a Neuv team lol
I like it when units are restrictive, it’s more fun to build teams around them
Obviously yes.
When one of the endgame modes limits your access to random elements and forces using characters in a random order, and the other endgame mode requires doing 3 battles in a row with the same team all 3 of which usually has different specific checks for weapon types, elements, mechanics, etc then absolutely.
Look at current side 2 in Abyss, first boss wants a plunge team as it forcefully converts my jump cancels into time wasting high jumps, second one requires a bow and the third one has Hydro immunity and a bloated hp pool that assumes you're vaping or electrocharging all your hits. Good luck building a team that can fulfill all 3 of those conditions using niche units like Gorou and Shenhe. Oh almost forgot the first and third boss hits very hard too so your solution better includes a top tier healer in addition to all the rest, these are the kinds of battles where bringing someone like Kuki instead of Baizhu just makes me die. Also I learned it the hard way, the first boss resists Geo so Geo units are out, too.
Ororon will also be dead in any Electro IT seasons when the other two elements do not include hyro which is 66% of the time. Chevreuse, same deal, she is just a bad healer if it's an Electroless Pyro seasons.
My counter point is that you should just use Ororon as a sacrificial pawn in a small act so you can save energy from your better units. You can make any team comp work in those rounds.
Lol. Arlecchino, Fischl, Xiangling, Chevreuse and the other half are just a joke. And no, you don't have to play through jumping on 12-2-2.
Let me remind you, Chevreuse is also a niche character. Your complaint makes no sense. It's not the fault of niche characters that you can't put together an adequate team, it's your problem. And why are you bringing Shenhe as an example and offering her in the second half to the hydrotulpa, when the cryo element does not have unfairly broken buffs due to other elements? However, even so, Shenhe will be useful on the hydrotulpa, and what can your universal Kazuha do? Against the hydrotulpa and manifestation, he is just trash that takes up space and can do absolutely nothing.
The amount of things to buff Electro in this game has been insane
Think about it like this: A unit's net value is a area, the narrower you are the taller you have to be
but the flip side of restrictions is nilous case because only dendro and hydro gives some pretty good reults
true, she is still a good unit even with competition
Going to ask since I’m not going to pull for either characters this banner but going for weapon to buff my childe. For international, would Chasca or Lyney’s signature be better for Childe. I have accepted that I will probably never get polar star because people hate childe’s playstyle but asking so I won’t invest. I know lyney’s bow is pretty good and I don’t care all too much for Crit weapons because I managed to get 58/205
You can take my Chevreuse, Emily, and Shenhe out of my cold dead hands 🔫🗿
Depends on how much they do for a certain niche.
true that
Im saving all primos for Shenhe and nobody can stip me
I personally believe that restrictiveness helps the characters not get too overpowered. If a unit is restrictive, they must be very good on the role they have. If they provide decent buffs they usually need to be versatile. If these conditions do not meet their corresponding placements, then a unit is either cracked or weak.
pretty good assessment of the situation, as long as they’re good enough to justify said restriction then its fair game
about Shenhe, isn’t she a worse option for Freeze than Furina?
Shen He is so bad considering she can only buff one element and is still worse at buffing it than Xilonen and Kazuha who can buff 4 elements
the other side of restrictiveness is specialization , and its not even anything new , its there since day 1
Chasca vid when
There is restrictive and then there is too restrictive.
Cryo isn't even on life support anymore so Shenhe died alongside it as a unit.
Restrictive 4 star? Fine
Restrictive 5 star? Not so much
4 stars with restrictions are fine cause you can get them easier. 5 stars with restrictions are not.
Chiori
If a unit in question is Shenhe then YEAH. Because she doesn't do enough for her own Niche 😭
true cryo is cooked, but then you got others like chevreuse & faruzan who like, actually do something great for their teams
ALSO HI MIKA!!!!!!
I would love Shenhe to be better, but she's pretty good. I clear an abyss side in ~30 seconds with monocryo.
@@Squashua2727 SLAY ❤
@@Juice-chan HIIIIIII!!!!
Juice making an 11 minute video reiterating the point of niches. Which is not really an argued thing.
Who is saying niche = bad. Its niche for a reason... Word choice is important.
not necessarily
i wouldn’t call neuvillette or lyney ‘niche’ because of a restriction they have in their kit which isn’t even the best way to play them, niche is a more compact term compared to restrictions which are wider
I agree. This video feels lazy, and it's referencing an argument that doesn't exist. Do people really think restrictiveness is bad? No, not really at all. It's just an easy way to get a video out by creating a discussion from a self-declared, fabricated opinion. I agree with some of what's said, but the approach to the video is dishonest.
I'm saying niche = bad, but only in Genshin. It's fine in other games, but in Genshin the endgame modes are designed in a way that makes niche units bad or unusable. The IT mode doesn't allow 4 of the 7 elements so someone like Chevreuse can't use her kit 70% of the time. Abyss forces 3 battles in a row so even if two of them are easy with an overload team, if the third chamber requires Anemo or Geo then the team is unusable for it anyway unless you're willing to waste your time doing additional runs for each chamber.
Also niche units should cost less to obtain and build as they do less, but they cost the same or in case of C6 4 star supports, more than the average unit.
A