I’m a hobby machinist and started learning Fusion 360 for about 3 years. I’m proficient enough now to create shop drawings for everything I do now. I just finished a shop built CNC mill ( modeled in Fusion 360 of course) and now I’m learning to generate the g code from Fusion. I’m approaching 70 years old so I try to keep learning new skills to stay sharp.
I'm impressed Abom learning something new after years of the older ways. It harder or at least feels harder to do that as one gets older. I think back at my dad in the late 1960's having to learn to use a computer, hard drive, and punch cards instead of all paperwork when middle aged for his work or be replaced. It was scary for him, but learned it all and keep up with new computer stuff at home until his late 80's when things like seeing and getting fingers to work, didn't work well. I know for alot of young people, alot of that stuff seems to come more naturally. I would go to my kids, when I finally got a cell phone, to help with problems, but they grew up and moved away, luck I have siblings that can help with some of that stuff now. Just setting up a new phone... Would like to learn alot like 3D printers, cnc, etc. Abom gives me inspiration. All that stuff can be intimidating to an old man in his upper 60's.
I'm glad to see you adding CAD/CAM to the shop. Once you get a handle on it, you'll work a LOT faster on batch runs. Right now, it's slower, because there's a steep learning curve, but soon, you'll be rocking the software, and making changes on the fly will be easy.
Hi Adam. Looking back to the days of watching you being all nostalgic with the shaper, I am glad to see you becoming familiar with the CNC. It's going to take some time, but you of all people will master it. Thank you for showing us your process of understanding and solving the issues of learning something new.
Just for future jobs, when you model the part for the second operation, add an extra .100 of stock (or whatever), then let it take the face in multiple passes. If you happen to cut one a bit long at the bandsaw, it will handle it. If you cut them close, it might have an extra pass where its just cutting air, but still faster and safer. Learned that for my CNC mill. Makes it so I don't have to be super precise at the band saw, and prevents an uh-oh of cutting too heavy if I leave a bit more. Definitely a huge learning curve though, but you're making great progress.
I have an elderly retired machinist friend who said, the slippage issue could be from tightening with a single point. He always tightened his from multiple points . Something about balancing pressures, as one point puts most pressure on the closest jaws, farther ones not so from metal flex and stretch.
we kept having issues with our manual key chuck on our CNC lathe as well. Always pushed parts back. We made up a chuck key to 1/2" square drive adapter and now use a torque wrench on the chuck every time. (clamp down as much as we can but stay below maximum spec from the chuck mfg) Has made a night and day difference.
I'll stay no matter what you're working on...like your willingness to always push through the hiccups (and learning curve) and to complete the job accurately - no matter what it takes. When you do ANY project this way,...I learn. It's exactly why I started watching your channel in the first place.
I'd be using a 3 or 4 jaw chuck. 6 jaws in my opinion are ideal when working with thin wall material like tubing to prevent crush. They do not have the grip strength like a 3 or 4 has.
Adam, This is great, been waiting for this video since you got the CNC machines. Finally integrating Fusion 360 into your process. No worries with the mistakes. Sometimes you win, sometimes you learn! Learning is not failing. Definition of failing is quit.
Kevin Ellingson is excellent at Fusion 360 and the teaching of it. His YT channel Mechanical Advantage has so many great video tutorials. I am so glad he’s getting the exposure he deserves now, his channel needs to have a much larger audience because it’s pure quality.
We use a spindle stop on alot of parts to make sure it can't move & also for repeatability for flipping and facing to length. By the way, as you're learning how to use the software at computer or on the machine, I can't stress enough how easy and important it is to JUST edit the code to make it do what you want. I mean we have run parts for 30 yrs or so and still edit code all the time. Material, temps, all kinds of things can contribute but you have full control by just editing the code as needed. If I could be of any help with that I sure don't mine. I would like to see the Gcode on the screen on every job. It holds the answers to about any problem your having with machining. Enjoy your stuff Adam, I really do.
I setup, program, and operate Samsung cnc lathes of all sizes with Fanuc controls. I do a ton of work on a Samsung sl-25 which is a small machine too. We use hydraulic 3 jaw chucks and most of my setups the jaw pressure ranges from 100psi all the way up to 400psi. Unfortunately I just think you're not going even remotely tight enough. Others suggested a long torque wrench that would be my preferred method when it comes to a manual chuck in a cnc. just my opinion.
When I joined my current company, they were new to CNC and their mistakes look very similar to yours. They looked at the CNC lathe and mill as if they were going to continue their manual machining processes. They even wanted to use HSS tools. I was the only one there with CNC experience even though they were absolutely excellent in the manual. I recommended collets (3J for greater range- they chose 5C since they had a bunch) Carbide tooling Coolant recommended by manufacturer for CNC All operations possible per setup Etc… We kept the 3 jaw chuck for when we needed it.
Used to make a lot of precision parts out of inconel about that size. I would always change out the chuck for a collet head and use a dead stop on the second op. Super repeatable and you don't need to squeeze the material so hard. Otherwise as someone else noted I think you would be better of switching to a 3 jaw chuck and cutting some soft jaws for the 2nd op.
nice video, Adam. The axles are manufactured very quickly and with great precision. For the chuck to maintain precision, it is good to adjust the 3 pinions, otherwise one claw tightens a little more than the others and over a long time it wears out and loses cocentricity. Thanks and regards
Numerous machinists I have watched on TH-cam tighten the chuck at multiple locations by rotating the chuck 120 degrees each time. Some do all three points around the chuck. Might be worth a try.
6:15 This stuff is SOO amazing!! .. Semi production runs like this are REAL money makes too. I've mentioned before I programed and ran CNC Lathes back in the day, NOTHING complicated like they have today, (programs were stored on paper ticker tape :) ) BUT stuff we made $4 or $5 a part markup on . and orders started at 100 pieces! :) Once you have the program down pat (really doesn't matter how long it takes) then you sit back and collect the parts! :) I used to program the next job while the machine was running sometimes :)
Few tips. 1 drop the 6 jaw. Go with a 3 jaw with more aggressive jaws. More bite less pushing. 2 always leave .005 on the face. Let your finish turn take the finish pass. You csn blend a small rad or chamfer alot easier. 3. If your doing production use one of your tools as a bump stop. So you don't need to scale everyone. For 8 pcs. No biggie. But if you got hundreds. It's gonna be a pain. I was a manual guy for ever. Now doing cnc. I've learned alot. Any help I can give. I will.
@jackjohnson6074 I've been in a machine shop since I was in diapers. 6 jaw is for light pressure with minimal machining for light pressure. 3 jaw is for everything else. I run cobalt chrome everyday. I'd never even think to try a 6 jaw. It would push right through the spindle with all the tool pressure
Only time any 6 jaw chuck works ok is on thin walled tubing or similar work. There is no possible way for all 6 jaws to make identical contact on a solid round.. and know that solid round will never be absolutely round and those 6 jaws are never identical in their holding position. Add to this 6 jaw chucks are fragile due to their thinned out body to accommodate those 6 jaws. What should be on a cnc lathe is a chuck like a kitagawa pneumatic or hydraulic 3 jaw with soft jaws made to fit the part to be made. Alternative would be any number of pneumatic/hydraulic collet cnc specific chucks. This does and will cure the repeatability problem. This shaft can be made full length with the tail stock as support, no flip over until finish facing.
It appears that you would be better off using a right angle chuck tool over a T handle so that you could apply greater force much easier. Even a T handle with a sliding handle would be better. Nice to see you working with 360 and the CNC lathe. Thanks for sharing.
Stay steady with it you will get it. Every time I try and learn something new. I try and do just a little every day or two to keep my mind working on it. When I started with Fusion I tried and model a new part every day. No matter if it was something I need or not. Less time I have just means smaller items. By the way great job Adam
Adam, there is a lot of mass in the mechanical assembly of that 6 jaw chuck. In my experience with them even though you have a better grip on the part they always need a little extra torque to tighten them up.
💡Adam, just a conjecture, but I had this guess why the six jaw slips. Partly, as you say, you have an awkward angle to grasp the bar. But in addition to that, the torque you apply is being distributed over twice as many jaws, so that each jaw only applies half as much gripping force.
@@gigaherz_ Bingo, on a smooth surface, spreading the force across more jaws is a net zero. The pitch of the scroll may be different, shallower pitch would give more force for a given torque on the handle.
I was going to add an additional sentence, anticipating this objection. I should have. Here's what I should have added. While the inward force is directly proportional to the torque, the same is not true of the tendency not to slip, which is highly nonlinear; in fact it can approximate a step function.
I've never used a 6 jaw chuck, but on machines with a 3 jaw chuck, I've got a deflection type torque wrench hanging on the machine. Solid parts are torqued to between 70 to 80 Ft Lbs. I've never had a part slide in the jaws.
Perhaps you should try using a torque wrench to tighten the chuck. You get better leverage and after you find the sweet spot to tighten it, you can set the torque and easily tighten it so it won’t push the work back.
I wonder if tightening on a few different spots around the chuck might help. Maybe tightening on only one side is leaving some of the other jaws loose enough to not get a good grip. I like the other ideas of using torque wrench to at least eliminate consistency in tightening.
I wonder if you could use a ratchet or torque wrench instead of the chuck key. It will give you more leverage and keep you from the wall. if you use a torque wrench you'll know you hit the mark to tighten it the same all the time. For your rough sawing, why aren't you setting a stop so they are all the same length?
Your best bet on those to get some repeatability is to turn the large side and middle first, then do the bearing journal side second. You could even indicate your 5C collet block in the chuck and hold it in a collet to get within .001 TIR.
Hi Adam watching you turn up those small shafts we and I always use the pipe on that Chuck wrench I know it sounds unorthodox but that's how you get it to run tight the other thing you can do is a stop through the spindle to keep your stock from pushing back I thought this would help you
Out of curiosity what RPM were you running? I remember reading sometime back how much the clamping force goes down as the rpm increases due to the jaws trying to open from centrifugal force, it was mind blowing how big a percentage of clamp force you lose at higher and higher rpms above 1500. Might be something to consider. Also maybe do some tests on spindle start stops, maybe the scroll is being acted on when the spindle hard starts causing it to start to loosen? I guess this is why most machines run hydraulic chucks, they way they work their clamping force has much higher mechanical advantage to stay secure. Problem with hydraulic chucks is you aren't sure how much force they are exerting like you know when you tighten a key. And they have such a limited range of clamping you are constantly adjusting the jaw position or machining soft jaws.
I'm just a hobbyist, but one thing I've figured out in my limited CNC experience is, if I'm only making a few parts, there is no point in pushing the feeds and speeds to the limits of the machine, workholding, and tooling. If I spend half a day programming a part, and an hour setting up the machine, who cares if each part takes three minutes or five to cut?
Optimal cutting velocities are responsible for your surface finish (and many other things, like the service life of your cutting tools) I guess that matters at least for you?:) Learning that (and understanding!!!) takes months and deep understanding in machining processes and material science. And sitting down, actually calculating this (and not praying to god) can sometimes take more than three or five minutes. Which, I guess we can agree on that, is not wasted time. I don't understand the way you go with your argument ... those arbitrary time durations or the emphasis on that fast=bad and slow=good (could have misunderstood you) example/understanding. That is just nonsense!:) USE THE RIGHT SPEEDS, the appropriate ones: RTFM! (Sorry, but that is true. READ THE DATASHEET of the manufacturer and your machining handbook) Hehehe:)
@@dieSpinnt As long as we are throwing insults at each other, you are the one spouting nonsense. There is usually a range of feed and speed values that works will for a particular tool and material. Manufacturers "optimal" recommendations, in my limited experience, skew towards the aggressive end--maximizing material removal rate at the expense of other factors. This is especially the case for roughing operations, which is where Adam was having trouble (and where surface finish is less critical). The manufacturers' aggressive approach makes sense for production scenarios, less so for short runs and one-offs. I find that, with my (admittedly underpowered) machines, I tend to get the best results choosing speeds at the low end of manufacturer's recommendations, or even below their recommended range, as long as I keep the feed and speed proportional in order to maintain an adequate chip thickness. I find that approach helps me avoid workholding and toolholding problems and broken tools. High speeds result in heavier cutting loads and a greater likelihood that the work will move, as Adam was experiencing. Does that mean you should make your cuts with a 0.0001" chip load or a 0.001" stepover? Of course not. Too little load on the tool also has downsides for surface finish, tool life and, of course, cutting time. But the notion that there is one exact speed and feed setting, allowed, and if you deviate from that at all, your part is crap? That is "just nonsense." Of course, if I were going to make 1000 of something, I would be willing to invest more time into figuring out how far I can push the MRR. Even then, I would use the manufacturer's recommendations as the starting point for experimentation. And I am aware that some materials, like stainless, are much more particular about feeds/speeds than others. Although even with stainless, I have found you can slow down quite a bit as long as you keep the chips thick enough to get under the work hardening. And, yes, if your workholding slips, that suggests you are in the range where fast=bad and slow=good.
Does anybody have an answer? Previously, when tightening the chuck Adam has tightened at each of the three positions for the chuck key, eliminating any residual backlash at the interface between the spiral and the jaws. I'm guessing it is more important on a six jaw chuck than on a three jaw, because three jaws naturally even out, like a three legged stool. I'm also guessing the harder the material, the more important it is to eliminate any pressure differences between the jaws and the workpiece. There was also no mention of precision grinding the jaws in the box opening video. Or use softer, sacrificial jaws? that'll teach me to go to the end before commenting!
14:20 In the production shop we used a Collet and Bar Feed system, so it could part off, feed out the material and make the next piece automatically. The Collet was tightened with hydraulic force so it was REALLY tight, but we still got push back occasionally. SO we had to add extra cuts when roughing, which slowed production. On some jobs we used soft jaws machined to suit that job, with a positive STOP or base in the back of the jaws to push against when roughing ... so the part could NOT be forced back.
Next time try this if you want to use the shoulder as a solid stop make a spacer slightly bigger in diameter and slightly longer than your bearing race. Then you have confidence when you use it that things will come out in a consistent fashion
there will always be some bad parts at the beginning with a new tool, until you learn what works and what doesn't. even if you get a few bad parts now and then, it's important not to lose confidence and keep practicing. it's the only way to learn and get better. must admit that I think it is strange that they make new CNC machines without a hydraulic chuck, this is something I have not seen elsewhere. Hard jaws are more likely to slip or spin than soft jaws, so learning how to make soft jaws for CNC machines is an important thing. another option is to use a collet chuck. another tip I would give is to reduce the protrusion of the tools in the CNC machine as much as possible, this includes cutting the stem of the tools if necessary, as this will give you more stability. keep practicing and you'll be an expert at CNC before you know it. great video, keep it up👍
I noticed that you only tigntened the primary pinion where as you usually go around the chuck and tignten all three. Is it not necessary on the 6 jaw chuck?
I noticed that you only tighten the chuck in postion place instead of multiple positions like you do on your manual lathe. Could this make a difference?
You could simply reverse the 1st and 2nd ops and it would work just fine. Cut the straight shank first, then turn it around and stop against the jaws to cut the stepped shaft.
Adam, I would say that by tightening at only one point on the chuck you have an imbalance in the force holding the part and it works loose eventually. I would suggest that you tighten all three points on the chuck, that would evenly hold the part.
Saturady night fun 🎉 Thanks for being honest and knowing you do test parts first. I thought I truly sucked having to do test parts first before doing finish jobs
Got to remember the centrifugal forces on the chuck jaws are rather big with those RPM's. Some machinists are suggesting a 6 jaw has less clamping power than the 3 or 4 jaws. If the stock is moving on the CNC it should reproduce that on a lathe I would think unless the feed rate and RPM has an affect of their own.
When you installed the six jaw I noticed you were tightening the jaws from the zero chuck screw for repeatability. Have you tried that process with snugging the other two chuck bolts to balance the load on the jaws? If so, did it effect the repeatability? I’ve always tightened 3 & 4 jaw chucks with all the chuck screws. Is that particular 6 jaw chuck that much more sensitive that snugging all the chuck screws throws off the repeatability? Just curious.
Maybe you need to skim cut the inside of the jaws in situ, perhaps inconsistency in the gripping face of the jaws leading to uneven pressure on the workpiece allowing it to slip. If you preload the jaw and skim them it should even the load on each. Just a thought, IIRC Stefan Gotteswinter did this to one of his six jaw vises.
Couldn’t you weld up a ratcheting “T” wrench to be able to get the wrench in a good powerful pull position to comfortably tighten that chuck down good and tight?
Learning new things! And sometimes you just have to do it the "old" way to get the job done. I'd suggest a breaker bar for that chuck instead of the T-handle. It'd be easier to use in the CNC, I think.
Keep in mind that while the total clamping force is the same for 3 jaw and 6 jaw the individule jaw force will be half for the same amount of effort on the jaw tightening wrench when spread out over 6 jaws vs 3 jaws. Ray
Just noticed something pretty crazy...I thought i been watching Abom79 since the beginning. Lol Not even close, his oldest video is from 10 friggin years ago
Hi guys ❤ I have a question and my question is what’s the major distance between the bore and a bushing? while installing the bushing inside the bore to avoid any changes in diameter of the bushing I hope I got an answer thanks.
Could you have machined a collar/ring/spacer to slide over that journal, so that the chuck could clamp on the middle section and still "press" against the large diameter section?
Adam, Love the way you keep learning, and leaving the problems you encounter in the videos makes them far more instructive. Re the Chuck, could you make a chuck wrench adapter for a torque wrench or breaker bar or ratchet to avoid the awkward Chuck wrench clearance issue?
I'm wondering, do people use pneumatic torque wrench to clamp the parts in the lathe chuck? Potentially it could be more convenient way to do this in a tight space of the CNC lathe. Also it's probably good for repeatability.
For absolutely everything, whether it's doing it by hand or with CNC, there's often a dozen ways to reach your goal. One problem is that you can end up "searching for the ideal solution" than it would take to "do something that you know works". The key is to get the job done, right? If you realize, along the way, that there's a better way, do that - if it's not too much work. Make a note (on paper, in a computer, in your head, whatever works for you), to try a different way next time, if it's not something you can just adapt - and reprogramming the CNC would likely be one of those things. It's exactly like the "Why do you use the shaper to do this, when you have a mill" - well, part of that is the "My workshop, my choice", right - and part of it is "I'm learning how to use this machine, I'll get better at it as time goes". I'm sure if you'd started out using CNC when you first started working in your dad's workshop, rather than using manual machines, you'd be just as good at that as you are at manual machining - but that's not what your dad's workshop was, and your life took a different turn than that. Nothing wrong with that, just have to learn how to do things a different way. I sometimes wonder what my life would be like, if I'd spent more time working with my uncle, who had lathes, mills and a lot of welding equipment, etc. Unfortunately, I lived 300 miles away, so I only came to visit maybe once a year or so - and often we stayed with another relative, and only had an afternoon for lunch and a chat at my uncle's.
Definitely change your chuck key to a right angle or a socket on a torque wrench. That will help you with the inconsistent jaw pressure. Love the videos, man I miss being in the workshop.
Put your 3 jaw chuck back in the machine. Put some aggressive tooth hard jaws in for the first end. Then get some soft machinable jaws for the second op, bore them out for the second op so they match the first end exactly. You will have a much better experience than that ridiculous 6 jaw chuck.
You are getting it. I can hear the frustration at the problems you are having doing things you KNOW you can do on the manual machine. But keep at it. I'm in a similar boat to you, there are parts I need to learn how to make but it's hard to stretch beyond the ones I am doing while busy sometimes for days doing my day job then trying to learn a new CNC machine and a bunch of operations that are just foreign. If could just do nothing but this every day for about a month straight it would be perfect but that's not an option. It isn't for you either. You have to keep doing some manual work and you have a video channel to run. Same problem. Lack of extremely focused quality time with the machine actually making parts.
When you finish this job you should seriously consider making a hard stop for the lathe spindle ... all of them. You won't have to worry about work pushing back and having to measure your stick out every time.
No way I would go without my 3D Connexion anymore. I do a few tweaks on my CNC PC's occasionally in Fusion but for more than a tweak back to my main workstation where it lives.
Would making a set of soft jaws provide better friction to hold the part and keep from marking the bearing surface. Expecially if this becomes a repeat order? Was thinking this material is hard enough that the jaws can't bite into the surface like a tap in a chuck allowing it to spin easier.
Looks like you have to be a contortionist to get a part into the chuck and get it tightened. The door looks to be in the way. Is there a way to move the door so you can get a straight shot?
Id say making a small sleeve to go over the bearing surface and extend past the bearing step by a nominal size. and just run a new off set for the part. and work the demensions backwords
I’m a hobby machinist and started learning Fusion 360 for about 3 years. I’m proficient enough now to create shop drawings for everything I do now. I just finished a shop built CNC mill ( modeled in Fusion 360 of course) and now I’m learning to generate the g code from Fusion. I’m approaching 70 years old so I try to keep learning new skills to stay sharp.
I think viewers forget that Adam has been a professional machinist for decades.
I'm impressed Abom learning something new after years of the older ways. It harder or at least feels harder to do that as one gets older. I think back at my dad in the late 1960's having to learn to use a computer, hard drive, and punch cards instead of all paperwork when middle aged for his work or be replaced. It was scary for him, but learned it all and keep up with new computer stuff at home until his late 80's when things like seeing and getting fingers to work, didn't work well. I know for alot of young people, alot of that stuff seems to come more naturally. I would go to my kids, when I finally got a cell phone, to help with problems, but they grew up and moved away, luck I have siblings that can help with some of that stuff now. Just setting up a new phone... Would like to learn alot like 3D printers, cnc, etc. Abom gives me inspiration. All that stuff can be intimidating to an old man in his upper 60's.
I'm glad to see you adding CAD/CAM to the shop. Once you get a handle on it, you'll work a LOT faster on batch runs. Right now, it's slower, because there's a steep learning curve, but soon, you'll be rocking the software, and making changes on the fly will be easy.
Hi Adam. Looking back to the days of watching you being all nostalgic with the shaper, I am glad to see you becoming familiar with the CNC. It's going to take some time, but you of all people will master it. Thank you for showing us your process of understanding and solving the issues of learning something new.
Just for future jobs, when you model the part for the second operation, add an extra .100 of stock (or whatever), then let it take the face in multiple passes. If you happen to cut one a bit long at the bandsaw, it will handle it. If you cut them close, it might have an extra pass where its just cutting air, but still faster and safer. Learned that for my CNC mill. Makes it so I don't have to be super precise at the band saw, and prevents an uh-oh of cutting too heavy if I leave a bit more. Definitely a huge learning curve though, but you're making great progress.
I have an elderly retired machinist friend who said, the slippage issue could be from tightening with a single point. He always tightened his from multiple points . Something about balancing pressures, as one point puts most pressure on the closest jaws, farther ones not so from metal flex and stretch.
we kept having issues with our manual key chuck on our CNC lathe as well. Always pushed parts back.
We made up a chuck key to 1/2" square drive adapter and now use a torque wrench on the chuck every time.
(clamp down as much as we can but stay below maximum spec from the chuck mfg)
Has made a night and day difference.
I'll stay no matter what you're working on...like your willingness to always push through the hiccups (and learning curve) and to complete the job accurately - no matter what it takes. When you do ANY project this way,...I learn. It's exactly why I started watching your channel in the first place.
I'd be using a 3 or 4 jaw chuck. 6 jaws in my opinion are ideal when working with thin wall material like tubing to prevent crush. They do not have the grip strength like a 3 or 4 has.
Lots of learning going on. Thanks for walking us viewers through. This is big. CAD is no joke. The filming makes the trip more understandable. Thanks
Adam, This is great, been waiting for this video since you got the CNC machines. Finally integrating Fusion 360 into your process. No worries with the mistakes. Sometimes you win, sometimes you learn! Learning is not failing. Definition of failing is quit.
Kevin Ellingson is excellent at Fusion 360 and the teaching of it. His YT channel Mechanical Advantage has so many great video tutorials. I am so glad he’s getting the exposure he deserves now, his channel needs to have a much larger audience because it’s pure quality.
This is exactly what I like to see, great after a long day working to come home collapse in a heap infront of my TV and watch some Abom79 videos!
We use a spindle stop on alot of parts to make sure it can't move & also for repeatability for flipping and facing to length. By the way, as you're learning how to use the software at computer or on the machine, I can't stress enough how easy and important it is to JUST edit the code to make it do what you want. I mean we have run parts for 30 yrs or so and still edit code all the time. Material, temps, all kinds of things can contribute but you have full control by just editing the code as needed. If I could be of any help with that I sure don't mine. I would like to see the Gcode on the screen on every job. It holds the answers to about any problem your having with machining. Enjoy your stuff Adam, I really do.
I setup, program, and operate Samsung cnc lathes of all sizes with Fanuc controls. I do a ton of work on a Samsung sl-25 which is a small machine too. We use hydraulic 3 jaw chucks and most of my setups the jaw pressure ranges from 100psi all the way up to 400psi. Unfortunately I just think you're not going even remotely tight enough. Others suggested a long torque wrench that would be my preferred method when it comes to a manual chuck in a cnc. just my opinion.
When I joined my current company, they were new to CNC and their mistakes look very similar to yours. They looked at the CNC lathe and mill as if they were going to continue their manual machining processes. They even wanted to use HSS tools.
I was the only one there with CNC experience even though they were absolutely excellent in the manual.
I recommended collets (3J for greater range- they chose 5C since they had a bunch)
Carbide tooling
Coolant recommended by manufacturer for CNC
All operations possible per setup
Etc…
We kept the 3 jaw chuck for when we needed it.
Used to make a lot of precision parts out of inconel about that size. I would always change out the chuck for a collet head and use a dead stop on the second op. Super repeatable and you don't need to squeeze the material so hard. Otherwise as someone else noted I think you would be better of switching to a 3 jaw chuck and cutting some soft jaws for the 2nd op.
nice video, Adam. The axles are manufactured very quickly and with great precision. For the chuck to maintain precision, it is good to adjust the 3 pinions, otherwise one claw tightens a little more than the others and over a long time it wears out and loses cocentricity. Thanks and regards
it’s good to see you again, Adam!
excelent photography. Love the scenes with the camera on the tool changer
Numerous machinists I have watched on TH-cam tighten the chuck at multiple locations by rotating the chuck 120 degrees each time. Some do all three points around the chuck. Might be worth a try.
6:15 This stuff is SOO amazing!! .. Semi production runs like this are REAL money makes too.
I've mentioned before I programed and ran CNC Lathes back in the day, NOTHING complicated like they have today, (programs were stored on paper ticker tape :) ) BUT stuff we made $4 or $5 a part markup on . and orders started at 100 pieces! :)
Once you have the program down pat (really doesn't matter how long it takes) then you sit back and collect the parts! :)
I used to program the next job while the machine was running sometimes :)
Always look forward People who cast negative views have there own issues. I wish you the best and good luck in you journey
Few tips. 1 drop the 6 jaw. Go with a 3 jaw with more aggressive jaws. More bite less pushing. 2 always leave .005 on the face. Let your finish turn take the finish pass. You csn blend a small rad or chamfer alot easier. 3. If your doing production use one of your tools as a bump stop. So you don't need to scale everyone. For 8 pcs. No biggie. But if you got hundreds. It's gonna be a pain. I was a manual guy for ever. Now doing cnc. I've learned alot. Any help I can give. I will.
Use also a torque wrench to tighten up the chuck
SIX JAWS TWICE AS GOOD AS 3 JAWS ROOKIES.
@jackjohnson6074 I've been in a machine shop since I was in diapers. 6 jaw is for light pressure with minimal machining for light pressure. 3 jaw is for everything else. I run cobalt chrome everyday. I'd never even think to try a 6 jaw. It would push right through the spindle with all the tool pressure
@@Bighorse508 REAL MEN USE 4 JAWS SISSY BOY
Only time any 6 jaw chuck works ok is on thin walled tubing or similar work. There is no possible way for all 6 jaws to make identical contact on a solid round.. and know that solid round will never be absolutely round and those 6 jaws are never identical in their holding position. Add to this 6 jaw chucks are fragile due to their thinned out body to accommodate those 6 jaws.
What should be on a cnc lathe is a chuck like a kitagawa pneumatic or hydraulic 3 jaw with soft jaws made to fit the part to be made. Alternative would be any number of pneumatic/hydraulic collet cnc specific chucks. This does and will cure the repeatability problem. This shaft can be made full length with the tail stock as support, no flip over until finish facing.
Adam - you're so experienced you'll learn heaps from the errors / mistakes / set-backs and you can't teach experience. Fab presentation
It appears that you would be better off using a right angle chuck tool over a T handle so that you could apply greater force much easier. Even a T handle with a sliding handle would be better. Nice to see you working with 360 and the CNC lathe. Thanks for sharing.
Stay steady with it you will get it. Every time I try and learn something new. I try and do just a little every day or two to keep my mind working on it. When I started with Fusion I tried and model a new part every day. No matter if it was something I need or not. Less time I have just means smaller items. By the way great job Adam
Adam, there is a lot of mass in the mechanical assembly of that 6 jaw chuck. In my experience with them even though you have a better grip on the part they always need a little extra torque to tighten them up.
Recommend using soft jaws and bore them for the stock size with maximum amount of contact
Adam, Another great video, I look forward each week for all your new one's.
💡Adam, just a conjecture, but I had this guess why the six jaw slips. Partly, as you say, you have an awkward angle to grasp the bar. But in addition to that, the torque you apply is being distributed over twice as many jaws, so that each jaw only applies half as much gripping force.
but there's twice as many jaws applying that force so the total force being applied is the same
@@gigaherz_ Bingo, on a smooth surface, spreading the force across more jaws is a net zero. The pitch of the scroll may be different, shallower pitch would give more force for a given torque on the handle.
I was going to add an additional sentence, anticipating this objection. I should have. Here's what I should have added. While the inward force is directly proportional to the torque, the same is not true of the tendency not to slip, which is highly nonlinear; in fact it can approximate a step function.
As an example of the nonlinearity in another field, notice that drag racers are 👉not 👈 indifferent to whether they mount wide or narrow tires.
@@lurkmoar3926 That is different, that is not two hard smooth surfaces.
Kudos Adam on the cnc education progress.
I've never used a 6 jaw chuck, but on machines with a 3 jaw chuck, I've got a deflection type torque wrench hanging on the machine. Solid parts are torqued to between 70 to 80 Ft Lbs. I've never had a part slide in the jaws.
Perhaps you should try using a torque wrench to tighten the chuck. You get better leverage and after you find the sweet spot to tighten it, you can set the torque and easily tighten it so it won’t push the work back.
I wonder if tightening on a few different spots around the chuck might help. Maybe tightening on only one side is leaving some of the other jaws loose enough to not get a good grip.
I like the other ideas of using torque wrench to at least eliminate consistency in tightening.
Lol, i know right
I could watch this stuff all day.
Idk why but it's just 👍
I wonder if you could use a ratchet or torque wrench instead of the chuck key. It will give you more leverage and keep you from the wall. if you use a torque wrench you'll know you hit the mark to tighten it the same all the time.
For your rough sawing, why aren't you setting a stop so they are all the same length?
Your best bet on those to get some repeatability is to turn the large side and middle first, then do the bearing journal side second. You could even indicate your 5C collet block in the chuck and hold it in a collet to get within .001 TIR.
It's not an aerospace job train
Without a hydraulic chuck, you should always use a torque wrench on the chuck for consistent tightness.
Hi Adam watching you turn up those small shafts we and I always use the pipe on that Chuck wrench I know it sounds unorthodox but that's how you get it to run tight the other thing you can do is a stop through the spindle to keep your stock from pushing back I thought this would help you
Out of curiosity what RPM were you running? I remember reading sometime back how much the clamping force goes down as the rpm increases due to the jaws trying to open from centrifugal force, it was mind blowing how big a percentage of clamp force you lose at higher and higher rpms above 1500. Might be something to consider. Also maybe do some tests on spindle start stops, maybe the scroll is being acted on when the spindle hard starts causing it to start to loosen?
I guess this is why most machines run hydraulic chucks, they way they work their clamping force has much higher mechanical advantage to stay secure. Problem with hydraulic chucks is you aren't sure how much force they are exerting like you know when you tighten a key. And they have such a limited range of clamping you are constantly adjusting the jaw position or machining soft jaws.
With scroll chucks your pressure is divided by the amount of jaws so 150 ftlbs only equals 25 ft lbs per jaw and each jaw has maybe .200 of contact
@16:42 Wouldn't it make sense to tighten the three points on the chuck instead of just one? Just like a drill chuck, always tighten all three. 🤔
I'm just a hobbyist, but one thing I've figured out in my limited CNC experience is, if I'm only making a few parts, there is no point in pushing the feeds and speeds to the limits of the machine, workholding, and tooling. If I spend half a day programming a part, and an hour setting up the machine, who cares if each part takes three minutes or five to cut?
Optimal cutting velocities are responsible for your surface finish (and many other things, like the service life of your cutting tools)
I guess that matters at least for you?:) Learning that (and understanding!!!) takes months and deep understanding in machining processes and material science. And sitting down, actually calculating this (and not praying to god) can sometimes take more than three or five minutes. Which, I guess we can agree on that, is not wasted time.
I don't understand the way you go with your argument ... those arbitrary time durations or the emphasis on that fast=bad and slow=good (could have misunderstood you) example/understanding. That is just nonsense!:) USE THE RIGHT SPEEDS, the appropriate ones: RTFM! (Sorry, but that is true. READ THE DATASHEET of the manufacturer and your machining handbook) Hehehe:)
@@dieSpinnt As long as we are throwing insults at each other, you are the one spouting nonsense. There is usually a range of feed and speed values that works will for a particular tool and material.
Manufacturers "optimal" recommendations, in my limited experience, skew towards the aggressive end--maximizing material removal rate at the expense of other factors. This is especially the case for roughing operations, which is where Adam was having trouble (and where surface finish is less critical). The manufacturers' aggressive approach makes sense for production scenarios, less so for short runs and one-offs.
I find that, with my (admittedly underpowered) machines, I tend to get the best results choosing speeds at the low end of manufacturer's recommendations, or even below their recommended range, as long as I keep the feed and speed proportional in order to maintain an adequate chip thickness. I find that approach helps me avoid workholding and toolholding problems and broken tools.
High speeds result in heavier cutting loads and a greater likelihood that the work will move, as Adam was experiencing. Does that mean you should make your cuts with a 0.0001" chip load or a 0.001" stepover? Of course not. Too little load on the tool also has downsides for surface finish, tool life and, of course, cutting time. But the notion that there is one exact speed and feed setting, allowed, and if you deviate from that at all, your part is crap? That is "just nonsense."
Of course, if I were going to make 1000 of something, I would be willing to invest more time into figuring out how far I can push the MRR. Even then, I would use the manufacturer's recommendations as the starting point for experimentation.
And I am aware that some materials, like stainless, are much more particular about feeds/speeds than others. Although even with stainless, I have found you can slow down quite a bit as long as you keep the chips thick enough to get under the work hardening.
And, yes, if your workholding slips, that suggests you are in the range where fast=bad and slow=good.
Does anybody have an answer?
Previously, when tightening the chuck Adam has tightened at each of the three positions for the chuck key, eliminating any residual backlash at the interface between the spiral and the jaws.
I'm guessing it is more important on a six jaw chuck than on a three jaw, because three jaws naturally even out, like a three legged stool.
I'm also guessing the harder the material, the more important it is to eliminate any pressure differences between the jaws and the workpiece.
There was also no mention of precision grinding the jaws in the box opening video. Or use softer, sacrificial jaws? that'll teach me to go to the end before commenting!
🎶 “To everything turn, turn, turn… “ 🎶
Sorry, couldn’t resist. 😜
14:20 In the production shop we used a Collet and Bar Feed system, so it could part off, feed out the material and make the next piece automatically. The Collet was tightened with hydraulic force so it was REALLY tight, but we still got push back occasionally.
SO we had to add extra cuts when roughing, which slowed production.
On some jobs we used soft jaws machined to suit that job, with a positive STOP or base in the back of the jaws to push against when roughing ... so the part could NOT be forced back.
Next time try this if you want to use the shoulder as a solid stop make a spacer slightly bigger in diameter and slightly longer than your bearing race. Then you have confidence when you use it that things will come out in a consistent fashion
there will always be some bad parts at the beginning with a new tool, until you learn what works and what doesn't.
even if you get a few bad parts now and then, it's important not to lose confidence and keep practicing. it's the only way to learn and get better.
must admit that I think it is strange that they make new CNC machines without a hydraulic chuck, this is something I have not seen elsewhere.
Hard jaws are more likely to slip or spin than soft jaws, so learning how to make soft jaws for CNC machines is an important thing.
another option is to use a collet chuck.
another tip I would give is to reduce the protrusion of the tools in the CNC machine as much as possible,
this includes cutting the stem of the tools if necessary, as this will give you more stability.
keep practicing and you'll be an expert at CNC before you know it.
great video, keep it up👍
Tighten your chuck with a torque wrench....you will have more leverage and will know that it is tightened correctly.
I noticed that you only tigntened the primary pinion where as you usually go around the chuck and tignten all three. Is it not necessary on the 6 jaw chuck?
I noticed that you only tighten the chuck in postion place instead of multiple positions like you do on your manual lathe. Could this make a difference?
You could simply reverse the 1st and 2nd ops and it would work just fine. Cut the straight shank first, then turn it around and stop against the jaws to cut the stepped shaft.
Adam, I would say that by tightening at only one point on the chuck you have an imbalance in the force holding the part and it works loose eventually. I would suggest that you tighten all three points on the chuck, that would evenly hold the part.
That's wrong, it make no difference, and clever people than either of us have suggested that it's actually a bad idea.
Saturady night fun 🎉
Thanks for being honest and knowing you do test parts first. I thought I truly sucked having to do test parts first before doing finish jobs
Got to remember the centrifugal forces on the chuck jaws are rather big with those RPM's. Some machinists are suggesting a 6 jaw has less clamping power than the 3 or 4 jaws.
If the stock is moving on the CNC it should reproduce that on a lathe I would think unless the feed rate and RPM has an affect of their own.
When you installed the six jaw I noticed you were tightening the jaws from the zero chuck screw for repeatability. Have you tried that process with snugging the other two chuck bolts to balance the load on the jaws? If so, did it effect the repeatability? I’ve always tightened 3 & 4 jaw chucks with all the chuck screws. Is that particular 6 jaw chuck that much more sensitive that snugging all the chuck screws throws off the repeatability? Just curious.
Maybe you need to skim cut the inside of the jaws in situ, perhaps inconsistency in the gripping face of the jaws leading to uneven pressure on the workpiece allowing it to slip. If you preload the jaw and skim them it should even the load on each. Just a thought, IIRC Stefan Gotteswinter did this to one of his six jaw vises.
That's exactly what he needs to do pal. You hit the nail on the head 😮
Couldn’t you weld up a ratcheting “T” wrench to be able to get the wrench in a good powerful pull position to comfortably tighten that chuck down good and tight?
Learning new things! And sometimes you just have to do it the "old" way to get the job done.
I'd suggest a breaker bar for that chuck instead of the T-handle. It'd be easier to use in the CNC, I think.
Keep in mind that while the total clamping force is the same for 3 jaw and 6 jaw the individule jaw force will be half for the same amount of effort on the jaw tightening wrench when spread out over 6 jaws vs 3 jaws. Ray
Have you thought of making a sliding t handle for the CNC lathe? Would give you more Abomb torque IMO.
Just noticed something pretty crazy...I thought i been watching Abom79 since the beginning. Lol
Not even close, his oldest video is from 10 friggin years ago
Seems to me,a 5-C collet chuck with a back stop ,would work much better than that 6 jaw chuck for those parts
Yep.
since the chuck isnt holding , could you make a slip in collar for your second operation to maintain the work position?
Thx god for Fusion 360. If it weren't for that program I would have been financially screwed a long time ago.
Hi guys ❤ I have a question and my question is what’s the major distance between the bore and a bushing? while installing the bushing inside the bore to avoid any changes in diameter of the bushing I hope I got an answer thanks.
Could you have machined a collar/ring/spacer to slide over that journal, so that the chuck could clamp on the middle section and still "press" against the large diameter section?
My man;)
❤ I like it. Shiny too.❤ Keep up the practice you are doing great things learning CNC CAD.
im sure you already know that but just in case you dont, the higher the rpm the less the chuck clamps on the part because of centrifugal force
AB sometimes you'll have to use a socket breaker bar with a HEX socket to get chucks in CNC's to tighten up. 👉👉Especially on much harder materials.
Adam, Love the way you keep learning, and leaving the problems you encounter in the videos makes them far more instructive. Re the Chuck, could you make a chuck wrench adapter for a torque wrench or breaker bar or ratchet to avoid the awkward Chuck wrench clearance issue?
See also the massive power EdgePrecision throws ad his clamping!
I'm wondering, do people use pneumatic torque wrench to clamp the parts in the lathe chuck? Potentially it could be more convenient way to do this in a tight space of the CNC lathe. Also it's probably good for repeatability.
Get yourself a digital torque wrench w/ an adapter that will tighten your chuck and that way you can avoid under or over tightening.
Use torque wrench to tighten material in the chuck?🤔🤔
For absolutely everything, whether it's doing it by hand or with CNC, there's often a dozen ways to reach your goal. One problem is that you can end up "searching for the ideal solution" than it would take to "do something that you know works". The key is to get the job done, right? If you realize, along the way, that there's a better way, do that - if it's not too much work.
Make a note (on paper, in a computer, in your head, whatever works for you), to try a different way next time, if it's not something you can just adapt - and reprogramming the CNC would likely be one of those things.
It's exactly like the "Why do you use the shaper to do this, when you have a mill" - well, part of that is the "My workshop, my choice", right - and part of it is "I'm learning how to use this machine, I'll get better at it as time goes". I'm sure if you'd started out using CNC when you first started working in your dad's workshop, rather than using manual machines, you'd be just as good at that as you are at manual machining - but that's not what your dad's workshop was, and your life took a different turn than that. Nothing wrong with that, just have to learn how to do things a different way.
I sometimes wonder what my life would be like, if I'd spent more time working with my uncle, who had lathes, mills and a lot of welding equipment, etc. Unfortunately, I lived 300 miles away, so I only came to visit maybe once a year or so - and often we stayed with another relative, and only had an afternoon for lunch and a chat at my uncle's.
It must be quite something, with all your knowledge, to come into something so new and complicated. But you learn *fast*.
Torque wrench, get the values from the chuck manufacturer. Anything else is a guess, and consistency is important.
Isn't that the new 6 jaw chuck you just installed on there?
Ah, CNC content to appease those coping and seething last week
Definitely change your chuck key to a right angle or a socket on a torque wrench. That will help you with the inconsistent jaw pressure.
Love the videos, man I miss being in the workshop.
No stop on the saw? It’s a nice saw, I think it should cut more accurately than what it looks like when you’re facing them off after.
Put your 3 jaw chuck back in the machine. Put some aggressive tooth hard jaws in for the first end. Then get some soft machinable jaws for the second op, bore them out for the second op so they match the first end exactly. You will have a much better experience than that ridiculous 6 jaw chuck.
You are getting it. I can hear the frustration at the problems you are having doing things you KNOW you can do on the manual machine. But keep at it. I'm in a similar boat to you, there are parts I need to learn how to make but it's hard to stretch beyond the ones I am doing while busy sometimes for days doing my day job then trying to learn a new CNC machine and a bunch of operations that are just foreign. If could just do nothing but this every day for about a month straight it would be perfect but that's not an option. It isn't for you either. You have to keep doing some manual work and you have a video channel to run. Same problem. Lack of extremely focused quality time with the machine actually making parts.
When you finish this job you should seriously consider making a hard stop for the lathe spindle ... all of them. You won't have to worry about work pushing back and having to measure your stick out every time.
Use a click wrench to get a consistent torque on the chuck
A collet chuck for that size work would be great
Are you using a cad mouse (second mouse like a Space Mouse)? If not, it’s life changing in fusion 360!
Doesn’t look like it.
No way I would go without my 3D Connexion anymore. I do a few tweaks on my CNC PC's occasionally in Fusion but for more than a tweak back to my main workstation where it lives.
I think you should have started with the other end, the journal on the shorter end would have been plenty to hold on to for the longer side.
seems you could the second end first, that would index much better once its turned around
Ive never seen a cnc lathe without a hydraulic or pneumatic chuck and a bar feeder
It's a toolroom lathe, not a production lathe.
How many RPM are you running at, looking on TMX's site that chuck might only be rated for 2600 RPM for the 8in, and 3200 RPM for the 6in
Pretty sure torque wrench is the ticket for the chuck to achieve repeatability
Would making a set of soft jaws provide better friction to hold the part and keep from marking the bearing surface. Expecially if this becomes a repeat order? Was thinking this material is hard enough that the jaws can't bite into the surface like a tap in a chuck allowing it to spin easier.
crao sorry should of finished watching the video before commenting
Looks like you have to be a contortionist to get a part into the chuck and get it tightened. The door looks to be in the way. Is there a way to move the door so you can get a straight shot?
Nice job man. 👏
you are getting it.. 3D printing probably helped you a lot.. I learned a bunch of design and cad stuff 3D printing.
Id say making a small sleeve to go over the bearing surface and extend past the bearing step by a nominal size. and just run a new off set for the part. and work the demensions backwords